Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yes, but all the hosts of the show also tweeted that they have been let go from the show. Sounds like cost cutting measures.

At this point, Live Audio Wrestling is just a name, it's not the thing that I've been following for years. Kind of similar to Championship Manager getting bought out, and the developers renaming their game Football Manager. The company that bought them thought they were buying the leader of the category, but it ended up just being a name, the fans went where the actual game and developers went.

My bad, I thought that tweet came from the hosts rather than the brand.
I just didn't think through what I was seeing.

[murrayyyyy]

Alpha v Omega @ Wrestle Kingdom? So is his contract up by then?

https://streamable.com/oijxe

[Toddzilla]

Probably not, but my guess is he can do what he wants at this point in his career, no?

Also, if there was ever any doubt that everything is a work...

[CrescentMoonie]

Not only Jericho vs Omega but also HHH showing up in an ICW ring. Pete Dunne first, then HHH around 2:45 or so.

Watch moment WWE legend Triple H shocks fans at ICW show in Cardiff - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/wrestling/watch-moment-wwe-legend-triple-11472394)

[RainMaker]

Not sure if it'll matter but I do think what Corgan is doing with NWA is interesting. Make people care about the people fighting is a novel concept.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YeMjSMbJISk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[CrescentMoonie]

Corgan's tenure in TNA was the best they had done in years. Also, Magnus is a solid choice for the first guy to really put the belt on.

It's a super long shot, but I like everything I've heard about how he wants to try and pull it off.

[CrescentMoonie]

The Ric Flair 30 for 30 airs tonight on ESPN. They're in full promo mode with him all over their networks and website today. Here's a solid article on the most iconic robes he wore and the matches he wore them for.

Nature Boy - The robes and stories of Ric Flair (http://www.espn.com/wwe/story/_/id/21275353/nature-boy-robes-stories-ric-flair)

[CrescentMoonie]

Significant WWE spoiler.

Styles beat Mahal clean at the Smackdown taping. Lesnar vs Styles at Survivor Series.

[RainMaker]

Rumors are that Hideo Itami is getting called up to 205 Live. Pete Dunne is appearing too.

Not sure why these two just aren't on the main roster. Never really got the appeal of Itami but Pete Dunne is really good. That match with Tyler Bate at one of the Takeovers is still one of the best matches I've seen WWE put on in forever.

[CrescentMoonie]

Owens had to leave the South American tour for "personal reasons" a couple of weeks ago and now both he and Zayn have been removed from the European tour. The apparent reason is they've both been pretty vocal about what's being done with their characters and apparently went into business for themselves on Smackdown yesterday (though I don't know when that was).

https://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2017/11/8/16625466/kevin-owens-sami-zayn-sent-home-wwe-european-tour-report-work-shoot

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rumors are that Hideo Itami is getting called up to 205 Live. Pete Dunne is appearing too.

Not sure why these two just aren't on the main roster. Never really got the appeal of Itami but Pete Dunne is really good. That match with Tyler Bate at one of the Takeovers is still one of the best matches I've seen WWE put on in forever.

Ya gotta like strongstyle, or at least the ROH version of it, to really get Itami I suspect. He's probably not able to use his best work in WWE (or now vs his prime) as frequently as would let him shine.

Total agreement about Dunne vs Bate. And I'm in the camp that actually thinks Dunne might actually be better, all around, than Bate. (though good Lord at the potential Bate has)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Apparently, according to the dirt sheets, they were supposed to be on the receiving end of a New Day beatdown (to some degree). Instead of sticking around for that, they bailed and went to the back.

[PilotMan]

My dad went to high school with Flair, (couple years apart) they both wrestled.

[RainMaker]

Owens and Zayn are in a good position. They'd probably make as much money on the indies and work less days. Have better creative control over their characters too. And for someone like Owens who has a family, that might be more appealing.

WWE seems pretty stagnant right now. Ratings don't seem to really get too good or bad. It doesn't seem to matter much what they do with storylines so maybe that's why they don't care. Any quality wrestler they bring in to NXT who makes a mark dies on the main roster. I'll catch a highlight or two on YouTube if I hear something exciting happen, but I haven't watched an episode of Raw or Smackdown in months now.

[RainMaker]

I was also thinking that if both of them leave, there's some crazy talent on the indies. If ever there was a time for a money mark to step up and try to get something going on a streaming service or something, now would be it. On top of Zayn and Owens, I believe Daniel Bryan is a free man in less than a year. Imagine kicking off a new wrestling promotion and he's brought out?

[CrescentMoonie]

WWE has no reason to change. Their quarterly revenue was nearly double this quarter last year. I don't understand how they're doing that despite lousy ratings, declining attendance, and stagnant network subscribers, but they are.

[CrescentMoonie]

I was also thinking that if both of them leave, there's some crazy talent on the indies. If ever there was a time for a money mark to step up and try to get something going on a streaming service or something, now would be it. On top of Zayn and Owens, I believe Daniel Bryan is a free man in less than a year. Imagine kicking off a new wrestling promotion and he's brought out?

I'm not touching Bryan with a 10 foot pole. Absolutely no way in today's social climate that a guy with his concussion history and concerns is taking a single bump on my watch. I'm sure most indy promoters would use him without hesitation, but that's why they're the minor leagues.

Bringing him in as a legend to mentor younger guys could really work.

There is a glut of marketable talent out there right now. Can you imagine starting a new company with Zayn and Owens right off their WWE runs. Poaching a few folks off the Impact roster (since they're moving operations to Ontario). Then fill it out with a few decent indy names. Start with a roster of 12-15 full time guys, bring others in for short runs, and see where it goes.

While we're at it, would this not be the perfect time for Billy Corgan to make his first big move after putting the NWA belt on Magnus? Having one off title matches with Owens and Zayn would be a nice promotional piece afterwards.

[RainMaker]

Well the TV ratings don't change the current TV deal. Maybe it'll hurt them in the next one but they're fine now.

Looking at the financials it just seems that cutting out almost all the original shows on the network made them a bunch more money. Subscribers were down a bit but it doesn't seem like anyone cares much about those shows. It also looks like they ran a bunch more house shows which probably sucks for the wrestlers but made the company more money.

[RainMaker]

I'm not touching Bryan with a 10 foot pole. Absolutely no way in today's social climate that a guy with his concussion history and concerns is taking a single bump on my watch. I'm sure most indy promoters would use him without hesitation, but that's why they're the minor leagues.

Bringing him in as a legend to mentor younger guys could really work.

There is a glut of marketable talent out there right now. Can you imagine starting a new company with Zayn and Owens right off their WWE runs. Poaching a few folks off the Impact roster (since they're moving operations to Ontario). Then fill it out with a few decent indy names. Start with a roster of 12-15 full time guys, bring others in for short runs, and see where it goes.

While we're at it, would this not be the perfect time for Billy Corgan to make his first big move after putting the NWA belt on Magnus? Having one off title matches with Owens and Zayn would be a nice promotional piece afterwards.

He's been cleared by some pretty big name doctors. I still think his current situation has more to do with crowd reactions and what Vince wants than any concern for his health.

This is the company that just let Kurt Angle wrestle in a main event with his history of neck injuries. This is a company that was throwing guys like Sting, Undertaker, Lawler, Foley, and Flair out there well into their 50's and even 60's. Shane McMahon has jumped off the cell twice in the past couple years. A year ago their Summerslam main event was giving Randy Orton a real-life concussion in the ring.

They don't want Daniel Bryan as the crowd favorite. That's why he's not wrestling.

[Mota]

They don't want Daniel Bryan as the crowd favorite. That's why he's not wrestling.

I believe it. He's in the way of Roman Reigns being the greatest babyface in the world.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He's in the way of Roman Reigns being the grrrrrrrrrrrreatest babyface in the world.\


Fixed that for ya :)

[CrescentMoonie]

Daniel Bryan says 85% chance he wrestles again, only 15% chance it's in WWE.

https://prowrestling.net/site/2017/11/10/daniel-bryan-says-theres-85-percent-chance-returns-ring-15-percent-chance-hes-cleared-wwe/

[CrescentMoonie]

While I assume he's losing the belt this weekend, Tim Storm got to do an interview about the NWA title with Rolling Stone.

NWA Champion Tim Storm on Working With Billy Corgan - Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/nwa-champion-tim-storm-on-working-with-billy-corgan-w511273)

[CrescentMoonie]

And Corgan just did another interview that points towards a little more of what they're trying to do.

https://apnews.com/8a1d2572213b45149546bff484f7ac9b

There’s not much to shape at the moment. The NWA champion is booked for a show next week in Nashville but there is no roster and no other champions. Lagana said the NWA hoped to sign about five wrestlers early in 2018. With no TV deal to produce needed revenue, the NWA will continue to produce digital content and perhaps find its future broadcast home on a streaming service. There are no scheduled NWA live events.

So...basically start by signing guys and booking them on other people's shows? Somehow parlay that into enough brand recognition to get on a streaming service?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Corgan decides to run an empty cupboard dynasty, except with actual money.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Former WWE Superstar Jack Swagger signs with Bellator MMA as a heavyweight (http://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/21403014/former-wwe-superstar-jack-swagger-signs-bellator-mma-heavyweight)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Props for Black vs Velveteen, not a bad match at all.
Clark made a good showing for himself in this, very NJPW stuff.

[RainMaker]

Props for Black vs Velveteen, not a bad match at all.
Clark made a good showing for himself in this, very NJPW stuff.

I didn't know anything about them and liked it. The video promos NXT does blow away anything WWE does. A 3-minute video actually made me care about an undercard match. Not complicated stuff.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R5NvMNLcr1I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[RainMaker]

Also that DDT Velveteen Dream does is a really unique way of doing it. Never seen it before.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I didn't know anything about them and liked it. The video promos NXT does blow away anything WWE does. A 3-minute video actually made me care about an undercard match. Not complicated stuff.

The question my kid raised was "who did a better job -- in ring -- of telling their story: Black/Dream or the recent Tanahashi/Ibushi match" (which we just watched last night)

That's kind of a fair question I think.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NXT War Games was ... well, it was busy. Not bad really, just kind of a predictable c.f. at times.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'm hoping for the day that Vince is forced out or dies. What HHH has done with NXT is so far above and beyond Raw/Smackdown at this point that it's criminal to keep the big shows running the way they are now.

[murrayyyyy]

Props for Black vs Velveteen, not a bad match at all.
Clark made a good showing for himself in this, very NJPW stuff.

Can't wait for him to get called up and no clue what to do with him so his career crashes like Prince Pretty.

[bulletsponge]

Can't wait for him to get called up and no clue what to do with him so his career crashes like Prince Pretty.

i was about to ask whom your referring too, but then i realized it all of them!

[murrayyyyy]

i was about to ask whom your referring too, but then i realized it all of them!

Clark. The Velveteen gimmick won't work on the big show. He's 22 year old so I can't see it lasting a long time. Maybe they come up with a new one when he gets the call up.

[Mota]

I watched my first WWE match in a while, Styles vs. Lesnar.

As is usual in the WWE, one wrestler does all the work, and the other one gets the win.

My son says "they always make the big guy win".

And now I go back to watching good wrestling again after this experiment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I watched my first WWE match in a while, Styles vs. Lesnar.

As is usual in the WWE, one wrestler does all the work, and the other one gets the win.

My son says "they always make the big guy win".

And now I go back to watching good wrestling again after this experiment.

Eh, upper mid-tier G1 caliber match (just now watched it). That was on par with, say, Styles vs Magabe. And I wouldn't have any problem with that match, so I can't really have a problem with it here just cause I don't like Lesnar in the ring. Probably the best match he's had since returning.

They didn't bury AJ, in & of itself that's a win.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NJPWworld has some of the recent RevPro matches up now.

Naito vs Scurll is not a 5* classic ... but it's a damned fine house show match if you go on entertainment value. Great job of giving the crowd a good time IMO, and that's something that sometimes gets lost when we discuss quality of matches/shows.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As the kid randomly picks some old ECW to watch, I'm caused to wonder:
Is Braun Strauman really the illegitimate son of Big Dick Dudley?

[CrescentMoonie]

Eh, upper mid-tier G1 caliber match (just now watched it). That was on par with, say, Styles vs Magabe. And I wouldn't have any problem with that match, so I can't really have a problem with it here just cause I don't like Lesnar in the ring. Probably the best match he's had since returning.

They didn't bury AJ, in & of itself that's a win.

The offense was nearly 50-50 which is something only Goldberg (and maybe Taker) has been close to since the return of Lesnar. Well worked match that put both guys over.

[RainMaker]

I liked AJ-Brock a lot. You had to figure Brock was winning as he's the star of the company. But AJ held his own in it. I don't think it hurt him.

Loved the Usos-Bar match. They're both great in the ring and that finish was a lot of fun.

Main event was a dud in my book. I just didn't care much about it. Felt like the only people who mattered in it were Shane, HHH, and Braun. Which is bad when you have guys like Nakamura, Cena, Balor, and so on competing in it.

[CrescentMoonie]

First half of the main was pretty good. Then it turned into As The McMahon's Turn and was just dreck down the stretch.

[CrescentMoonie]

Raise your hand if you had Mandy Rose and Sonya Deville as the next NXT call ups.

[CrescentMoonie]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fnUQ9grmGYY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[miami_fan]

WWE Legend Kamala on Life Support After Undergoing Emergency Surgery | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2745297-wwe-legend-kamala-on-life-support-after-undergoing-emergency-surgery?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial)

[murrayyyyy]

Raise your hand if you had Mandy Rose and Sonya Deville as the next NXT call ups.

Hey Vince, why does it look like HHH is running the company by putting himself in the main event and back on tv?

HMB. Call up Trish Stratus 2.0

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2015/10/e5jcJT2C-600x400.jpg

[Toddzilla]

Pfft, neither can come close to the perfection that is Alexa Bliss
http://nebula.wsimg.com/85b9610fd085404588ed6a9dcf7feb6e?AccessKeyId=794B83019176969E609C&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[murrayyyyy]

Okay so at least 6 women got added this week.

So odds on a women's Royal Rumble match as they seem to have added a ton of mid-card women? Think that's 11 on each show now so a 20 woman battle royal excluding both champs.

[AlexB]

She is hot, but she’s a very strange colour there

[JonInMiddleGA]

Kamala reportedly off life support & breathing on his own. Long way to go but encouraging step.

KAMALA HEALTH UPDATE | PWInsider.com (https://www.pwinsider.com/article/113775/kamala-health-update-.html?p=1)

[JonInMiddleGA]

That Pete Dunne fella, he's pretty good at the wrestling thing.

And Johnny Gargano could have some really good matches in NJPW right now.

[RainMaker]

That Pete Dunne fella, he's pretty good at the wrestling thing.

He's one of my favorites now.

[CrescentMoonie]

Dash Wilder has been working house shows for the Smackdown brand recently and rumors are Scott Dawson will be fully healed and ready to go in a couple of weeks. Would be nice to see them thrown into the title picture there with New Day, The Usos, and Gable & Benjamin.

[CrescentMoonie]

https://prowrestling.net/site/2017/11/29/impact-wrestling-will-allow-hardys-wrestlers-use-personas-outside-company/

And Broken WWE is officially on the way.

[Neon_Chaos]

DELETE!

IT HAS BEGUN - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmF2Ae4Pf2o)

[Flasch186]

the only reason to watch for the next few months. This could be epic if they don't WWE it up.

[CU Tiger]

someone catch me up.
I dont follow impact.

What is the broken angle in a nut shell?

[Toddzilla]

NO!

you need to experience it for the first time like the rest of us did.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas

[CrescentMoonie]

The proposed storyline I've heard is Broken Matt vs Bray Wyatt as a feud. Considering how badly they've ruined Wyatt, I don't see this ending well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

someone catch me up.
I dont follow impact.

What is the broken angle in a nut shell?

I don't really think you can adequately nutshell this one. Basically Matt believes he's from another planet/realm/existence. And as the linked article describes it
Broken Matt is basically a 16th-century lunatic from England that was dropped into 2017 and somehow has an African accent at times. It doesn’t make any kind of sense and that’s what makes him so great.

Also, he doesn’t call Vince McMahon by his name. It’s not “Vince”, “Mr. McMahon” or “Vinny Mac”. It’s “MEEKMAHAN”.

A beginner's guide to 'Broken' Matt Hardy (https://fansided.com/2017/05/01/broken-matt-hardy-explanation-wwe/)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I will say that the Broken angle does sorta grow on you if you started out as skeptical as I did.

The initial phases were, honestly, some of the most bewildering shit I've ever seen. But it's so utterly ridiculous that it can eventually take on a certain charm.

[CrescentMoonie]

I will say that the Broken angle does sorta grow on you if you started out as skeptical as I did.

The initial phases were, honestly, some of the most bewildering shit I've ever seen. But it's so utterly ridiculous that it can eventually take on a certain charm.

When even Jim Cornette says positive things about it, you know it's something special.

[RainMaker]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kiktBcRHABU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[CrescentMoonie]

NXT getting an episode on USA Network on the 13th.

https://prowrestling.net/site/2017/12/01/nxt-slated-air-usa-network/

[murrayyyyy]

and "woken" Matt's first video from RAW has already broke a million views and was in the top 25 youtube videos in less than 24 hours.

Also attempt #500 to get Bray Wyatt to connect with fans. Hopefully this won't lead to Hardy being followed to the ring by a big sperm like Orton was.

[General Mike]

I will say that the Broken angle does sorta grow on you if you started out as skeptical as I did.

The initial phases were, honestly, some of the most bewildering shit I've ever seen. But it's so utterly ridiculous that it can eventually take on a certain charm.

I didn't see a lot of the Broken stuff from Impact, but I enjoyed what I saw on Monday, at least the Matt parts. Bray Wyatt still does nothing for me with his promos that mean nothing and his terrible matches, but maybe Matt can out wacky him.

[CrescentMoonie]

Special Message from Nick Aldis and Austin idol - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=177&v=7kzvvrepGiA)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Tom Zenk dead at 59.

https://www.f4wonline.com/other-wrestling/tom-zenk-passes-away-59-years-old-248116

Zenk was the last surviving member of the Robbinsdale HS class of 1976, which also included Curt Henning, Rick Rude, and Brady Boone.

Rest in peace.

[molson]

Justin Credible had a bad night at an indy show over the weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ois-e64ayM4&t=1s

[JonInMiddleGA]

I still don't give two shits about Jinder Mahal but whoever has been training him has done a good job of teaching him some subtleties in the ring. And to his credit he's done a good job of learning them.

The way he was always on top of a pin, moving Styles into the middle before a late match pin attempt, those were good little things that I'm willing to tip my hat to.

[CrescentMoonie]

Mahal is carryable in the ring and even contributes now. The problem is the stereotypical character.

[RainMaker]

Jinder is a perfectly acceptable midcard heel. A great guy to put over the young stars coming up from NXT. He could have even had a nice US title run if they're going with the anti-American gimmick. He's just not a main event talent.

[RainMaker]

So I don't follow the news but is there a chance that Daniel Bryan comes back? They let him take a bump tonight (albeit a real light one). His contract is up next year and they have to be a little concerned that he'll go on a barnstorming tour of the indies grabbing a bunch of headlines.

From what I've read there is no reason he shouldn't be wrestling. He's passed all the tests from some really top doctors. It sounds like WWE just doesn't want him in a ring (probably because he steals thunder away from guys they want to push like Reigns).

Tonight sort of felt like it was angling toward him and Shane down the road, right? With a slow enough build they could play out the whole "unsanctioned match" bit like they did when Michaels came back till WrestleMania.

[molson]

Bryan passed other tests in part because he failed to disclose having post-concussion seizures. 10+ concussions plus seizures plus an ongoing concussion litigation I think will still make it a tough sell to get him back in the ring. When he first talked about the extent of his symptoms and how much he had concealed until last year, the overwhelming narrative seemed to be that he was definitely done. But now everybody has kind of forgotten about that, and maybe he's not having symptoms any more and his health has improved (if that's even how that works).

[RainMaker]

Bryan passed other tests in part because he failed to disclose having post-concussion seizures. 10+ concussions plus seizures plus an ongoing concussion litigation I think will still make it a tough sell to get him back in the ring. When he first talked about the extent of his symptoms and how much he had concealed until last year, the overwhelming narrative seemed to be that he was definitely done. But now everybody has kind of forgotten about that, and maybe he's not having symptoms any more and his health has improved (if that's even how that works).

I'd buy into WWE caring about his health if they weren't throwing Kurt Angle out there still. Guys like Sting, Taker, enen Jeff Hardy have been given matches. They ran a SumerSlam main event where Brock was supposed to break Orton open the hardway.

[RainMaker]

Also I like Carmella's ring attire and don't think I've ever seen her wrestle.

[molson]

I'd buy into WWE caring about his health if they weren't throwing Kurt Angle out there still. Guys like Sting, Taker, enen Jeff Hardy have been given matches. They ran a SumerSlam main event where Brock was supposed to break Orton open the hardway.

Did any of them have post-concussion seizures or diagnosed brain lessions?

It's not about "caring", it's about liability and public perception. As far as we know, Bryan has never been cleared by a doctor who was aware of the full nature of his symptoms.

I remember when the WWE was criticized for bringing Bryan back so soon after he was injured again after he was out so long with the neck and arm injury. Of course, it later turned out the the injuries weren't even related. But now they're the bad guy for not overruling their doctor.

I can kind of see an argument that they should cut him loose if they're not going to use him. But I'm not 100% convinced he really wants to wrestle right now and give up the easy paycheck. If he walked out they'd come to some kind of agreement eventually, or just fire him like they did Punk (even if it took 6 months). He seems content to stay and then be able to evaluate what he wants to do when his contract is up.

[murrayyyyy]

Does it seem weird to not be bitching about a WWE PPV the next day?

It wasn't a memorable PPV but I'm not sure they did anything wrong last night. No Dusty finishes for the end of the show. Probably the only disappointing thing is that they will kill off Rusev Day because it was so over last night.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It wasn't a memorable PPV but I'm not sure they did anything wrong last night. No Dusty finishes for the end of the show.

I was a little frustrated by the waste of a perfectly good Owens/Zayn match with the intrusion of the rather silly Bryan/Shane deal honestly. Everything was centered around setting up a deal that I don't care much about/for instead of letting four guys who could have put on at least a 4* match do so.

[RainMaker]

I can kind of see an argument that they should cut him loose if they're not going to use him. But I'm not 100% convinced he really wants to wrestle right now and give up the easy paycheck. If he walked out they'd come to some kind of agreement eventually, or just fire him like they did Punk (even if it took 6 months). He seems content to stay and then be able to evaluate what he wants to do when his contract is up.

From what I've read he'd love to leave. Sounds like money isn't an issue and he'd likely make a killing on the indies. He's one of the best wrestlers in the world and would be a huge draw at least early on.

And if WWE didn't care, they would release him. This is a company that won't even do pyro at their shows to save money. I think they'd like his $700k off the books.

I still don't fully buy the safety stuff. Yes he's had a lot of concussions but some of these older guys were working in an era where unprotected chair shots were happening every Monday night. There's no way that Jeff Hardy or Kurt Angle's body are in worse shape than his.

[RainMaker]

I was a little frustrated by the waste of a perfectly good Owens/Zayn match with the intrusion of the rather silly Bryan/Shane deal honestly. Everything was centered around setting up a deal that I don't care much about/for instead of letting four guys who could have put on at least a 4* match do so.

That's kind of been WWE for the past few years. Whether it's Shane or Stephanie. They have to be the focal point of the product.

The Shane comeback was fun. I don't even mind watching him do some really stupid stunt once a year. But when you have Orton, Nakamura, Owens, and Zayn in a ring together, that should be enough. Let them tear the roof off the place.

[murrayyyyy]

That's kind of been WWE for the past few years. Whether it's Shane or Stephanie. They have to be the focal point of the product.

The Shane comeback was fun. I don't even mind watching him do some really stupid stunt once a year. But when you have Orton, Nakamura, Owens, and Zayn in a ring together, that should be enough. Let them tear the roof off the place.

Hopefully the payoff is getting Shane off TV for a while.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The Shane comeback was fun. I don't even mind watching him do some really stupid stunt once a year. But when you have Orton, Nakamura, Owens, and Zayn in a ring together, that should be enough. Let them tear the roof off the place.

Exactly.

I don't mind Shane per se. The angle they decided to run around 4 guys with that much talent however, THAT annoyed me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

About to leave for an (micro) indy show about 45 mins up the road (in the old NWA-Anarchy building).

Basically going in order to see Matt Riddle work in person.

Rest of the card, well, let's say that we have VERY limited expectations
{shrug}

[Suicane75]

Who's Riddle facing? I love the guy. Would love to see him in NJPW at some point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Who's Riddle facing? I love the guy. Would love to see him in NJPW at some point.

Tonight he worked a teenaged prospect called Austin Theory (I think he has had a cup of coffee with Evolve). Tomorrow night he works Gunner.

Solid effort by both guys tonight, the kid is green but they did a nice enough match, suitably stiff. Oddball booking, Theory wins via DQ when he's attacked by a would-be title challenger. Could have just as easily had him attack Riddle ("you don't BELONG HERE" was said at one point) and let him have the DQ win.

Riddle was cool with the fans, played the tweener well. Nothing but respect for his effort tonight afaic.

edit to add: Here's a very quick clip (if the link works)
https://www.facebook.com/jon.loveless212/videos/10211321311137484/

[Toddzilla]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Great Kabuki retired in Japan last night<br>Awesome <a href="https://t.co/yztmf0MoP6">pic.twitter.com/yztmf0MoP6</a></p>&mdash; Tommy Dreamer (@THETOMMYDREAMER) <a href="https://twitter.com/THETOMMYDREAMER/status/944464934867320833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 23, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Suicane75]

Tonight he worked a teenaged prospect called Austin Theory (I think he has had a cup of coffee with Evolve). Tomorrow night he works Gunner.

Solid effort by both guys tonight, the kid is green but they did a nice enough match, suitably stiff. Oddball booking, Theory wins via DQ when he's attacked by a would-be title challenger. Could have just as easily had him attack Riddle ("you don't BELONG HERE" was said at one point) and let him have the DQ win.

Riddle was cool with the fans, played the tweener well. Nothing but respect for his effort tonight afaic.

edit to add: Here's a very quick clip (if the link works)
https://www.facebook.com/jon.loveless212/videos/10211321311137484/

Nice. Now the big question. Were his eyes bloodshot? ;)

[molson]

What would be the U.S. equivalent of Great Kabuki v. Dory Funk Jr. in 2017?

Dory Funk Jr. & Hiro Saito vs Masanobu Fuchi & Great Kabuki - YouTube (https://youtu.be/6-pOtSBAKHg?t=4m43s)

[CrescentMoonie]

Dory Funk Jr vs Terry Funk?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nice. Now the big question. Were his eyes bloodshot? ;)

#KingOfBros

[JonInMiddleGA]

Give or take, 24 hours til another Wrestle Kingdom.
Hard to believe, how a year goes by.

I don't think this one can live up to the last one honestly, but I don't figure it'll be bad by any means.

[Suicane75]

Give or take, 24 hours til another Wrestle Kingdom.
Hard to believe, how a year goes by.

I don't think this one can live up to the last one honestly, but I don't figure it'll be bad by any means.

You watching live?

[JonInMiddleGA]

You watching live?

Yeah, the kid has planned his whole week around it, so I'll play along. Work is slow atm, so I can sleep in a bit after it ends around dawn or so.

*his week got less complicated by waiting too long and having NXT taping in Atlanta Thursday night sell out w/out actually getting himself a ticket. Then again, the $40 price was probably a stretch for value in both our opinions. NXT will tape here against 2x in Feb, but he's not in town for either :/

[JonInMiddleGA]

Spoiler free match ratings for WrestleKingdom. These were my live takes, maaaaaybe subject to change a quarter* either way. Best I can tell, I'm 0.25 to 0.50 lower than what I saw on social media

Bucks vs R3K ... 3.5*
6 man gauntlet ... 2.75*
Ibushi-Cody ... 3.25*
KES vs Evil/Sanada ... 3.125* (yep, I did that)
Suzuki v Goto ... 3.5*
4-way juniors ... 3.75* (0.25 deduction for booking)
Tanahashi v Switchblade ... 3*
Jericho v Omega ... 4.75* (gets bonus 0.25 for the booking/scripting)
Okada v Naito ... 5.00* (yes, I would have gone higher if I thought it was deserving)

After 6 hours and change, I'm pretty frustrated by the upper card booking overall, pleased by the workers effort, unhappy that perhaps they've reached the point of not knowing what to do. I have less enthusiasm for everything from now til G1 than I had before the show started & that's not where you oughta be dammit.

[murrayyyyy]

Spoiler free match ratings for WrestleKingdom. These were my live takes, maaaaaybe subject to change a quarter* either way. Best I can tell, I'm 0.25 to 0.50 lower than what I saw on social media

Bucks vs R3K ... 3.5*
6 man gauntlet ... 2.75*
Ibushi-Cody ... 3.25*
KES vs Evil/Sanada ... 3.125* (yep, I did that)
Suzuki v Goto ... 3.5*
4-way juniors ... 3.75* (0.25 deduction for booking)
Tanahashi v Switchblade ... 3*
Jericho v Omega ... 4.75* (gets bonus 0.25 for the booking/scripting)
Okada v Naito ... 5.00* (yes, I would have gone higher if I thought it was deserving)

After 6 hours and change, I'm pretty frustrated by the upper card booking overall, pleased by the workers effort, unhappy that perhaps they've reached the point of not knowing what to do. I have less enthusiasm for everything from now til G1 than I had before the show started & that's not where you oughta be dammit.

Meaning the wrong person won the main event? It feels very WWEish to let Okada retain right now even if it seems like they did it to have Omega take if from Okada. Naito will never be hotter and they screwed it up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meaning the wrong person won the main event? It feels very WWEish to let Okada retain right now even if it seems like they did it to have Omega take if from Okada. Naito will never be hotter and they screwed it up.

I was trying to be spoiler-free but, uh ... yeah.

A billion times yeah.

*and that's not the slightest knock on Okada, who has several more reigns in him afaic ... but the time & place for this one to end was right there. You're asking a lot of fans to stick with Naito without a payoff, and that leaves me to wonder if this amounted to a serious slight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

To be absolutely clear: I have no significant criticism of any of the workers last night. Even the pre-show annual rumble of a random motley crew was well done. (I don't count recognizing that a few guys have slowed down physically as "criticism" {coughTanahashicough} that's just reality)

Everybody brought their work boots, laced 'em up & put on a show.

[murrayyyyy]

I was trying to be spoiler-free but, uh ... yeah.

A billion times yeah.

*and that's not the slightest knock on Okada, who has several more reigns in him afaic ... but the time & place for this one to end was right there. You're asking a lot of fans to stick with Naito without a payoff, and that leaves me to wonder if this amounted to a serious slight.

I blame my displeasure for the spoiler. I really think Omega getting the Jericho match screwed up the long term plans but maybe it didn't with Omega having the US title. Sticking with my original answer of they blew it here before I talk myself into being okay with Okada having the monster year he had so it makes sense.

LOLOkadaWins.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I blame my displeasure for the spoiler. I really think Omega getting the Jericho match screwed up the long term plans but maybe it didn't with Omega having the US title. Sticking with my original answer of they blew it here before I talk myself into being okay with Okada having the monster year he had so it makes sense. LOLOkadaWins.

I largely kept thinking of what I've heard great wrestling minds say about knowing when it's time to take a match home. That you react to the feedback you're getting & if it means you don't get in all your stuff but the timing is right, then go to the finish.

That's where the IWGP title picture was going into last night, there was never going to be a better moment to give the fans the payoff & let Naito have his victory. You're not going to get him more over with another month/3 months/12 months, there's nowhere to go but down in terms of that build.

You can, however, overextend Okada's run at the top & make it less useful to put the belt back on him someday. He's not at Rrrrrrrroman Rrrrrreigns hate or anything, fans are still certainly plenty warm to him but every day you drag this reign out makes it less appealing for him to get it back or keep it for any length down the road.

There's also the matter of where to go from here. Back to Omega? Damn guys, we just did this twice, is the next big thing really going to have to be round three, without any interruption? Drag Tanahashi back into the IWGP picture (ugh)? (I'm fine with him working regularly but there aren't even many 4* matches left in the guy, if any. He's closer to being an occasional attraction than he is to being Okada/Omega/Naito in the ring at this point). You could feed Okada the irregular challengers that deserve a title match -- Juice, Magabe, Ishii -- but talk about lack of anticipation or drama. I have no interest in seeing Jericho go around with any of the other guys 'cause basically he provided the one match style he has left. He delivered it well but I don't believe you can do much else with him with any of the other guys now.

You could maybe do something with Ibushi & Okada, then go Omega, then back to Okada & then Naito (or even vice versa I suppose) but to get there requires some other jumps too.

Another issue IMO is that they pretty much have one main event belt more than I can care about. Either retire the IC or combine it if you insist on having a US title. One of those has to become more midcard than main, leaving the Openweight to be the get-your-first-title option.

Maybe the HW tag division will regain some meaning in 2018, last night as least gave some reason to hope it might occasionally have a purpose.

[murrayyyyy]

I figured Ibushi is how they are going to go with the victory over Cody.

Hell, I'm not sure Omega stays as his contract is up at the end of the month. He's got all the power right now and part of him has to look at AJ/Finn and think of getting over here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hell, I'm not sure Omega stays as his contract is up at the end of the month. He's got all the power right now and part of him has to look at AJ/Finn and think of getting over here.

I'd be shocked at that honestly. He has to be aware of the incredibly low odds of him not being mishandled there.

[Suicane75]

I was underwhelmed by the show by and large. I honestly think my second favorite match behind the main event was Cody/Ibushi. Best Cody match ever IMO.

I'm with Jon on the booking, though not as much the main event. I think they can make Naito work as the challenger by maybe making his character more serious in the build to the next match whenever it happens.

I'm more blase about the undercard and where guys are slotted. Ishii might as well have not been on the show, the Juniors are just mix and match at this point. I want real feuds, singles matches. It'd also be nice if there were more than two Junior Tag teams at any given point.

The whole thing felt very much like a WWE style, let's get everyone on the show kind of deal and that hampered my enjoyment of it.

I'm not giving up and I have my hopes high that NYD can revive some of my interest but of the 4 Dome shows I've watched live, this far and away my least favorite.

[murrayyyyy]

So this is what happens when you bring a knife to a gun fight... (hinting at NY Dash reaction)

Wonder if this leads to the great color factions that worked so well in the past.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So this is what happens when you bring a knife to a gun fight... (hinting at NY Dash reaction)

Wonder if this leads to the great color factions that worked so well in the past.

Watchign tonight, just got through that segment.

The problem I see here is, well, we remember how that ended up. And I already internally called certain people "the B-team" as it was.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, finished NYDash.

Do. Not. Like. the ending. Cause the "next" thing after this feels obvious a.f. and I don't like how that sets up the current thing to go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And tonight (today? time zones are confusing), Jay White joins a faction in NJPW.

Ummm ... either I'm smoking something stronger than Pall Malls or Gedo is smoking some serious shit.

[RainMaker]

I haven't been watching much wrestling but AJ Styles is still the best wrestler in the world in my opinion. Every match I see him in is incredible. He can make anyone look good.

[Toddzilla]

So is Austin Aries looking to become a modern day Ultimo Dragon, walking around with 8 belts?

WSW Champion
Defiant Champion
IPW:UK World Championship
Impact Global Champion

he's 1/2 way there

[JonInMiddleGA]

I haven't been watching much wrestling but AJ Styles is still the best wrestler in the world in my opinion. Every match I see him in is incredible. He can make anyone look good.

Young(er) AJ was almost certainly the best in the world in his prime. Today he's been passed by at least 2 or 3 people.

That does NOT, however, mean he's chopped liver by any stretch of the imagination.

[Toddzilla]

I just spent 3 hours down the rabbit hole watching Showbuckle's channel on YouTube. If you want a gutshot of New Japan, this is your hook up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just spent 3 hours down the rabbit hole watching Showbuckle's channel on YouTube. If you want a gutshot of New Japan, this is your hook up.

I think that's the guy who did the fantastic history of Naito's journey to WK12. If so, yeah, he's capable of some top notch stuff.

[Toddzilla]

I think that's the guy who did the fantastic history of Naito's journey to WK12. If so, yeah, he's capable of some top notch stuff.It is, and that's the video that I started with.

[miami_fan]

Paige Reportedly &#x27;Done&#x27; as in-Ring WWE Performer Due to Injury | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2753874-paige-reportedly-done-as-in-ring-wwe-performer-due-to-injury?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial)

[AlexB]

Yeah, the video of Paige after the kick to the back is not good at all

[CU Tiger]

The videos of her pre exile are very good though

[bulletsponge]

Yep, she did her best work then

[PilotMan]

I liked her, it's too bad. But she's done some good work outside the ring too.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, the video of Paige after the kick to the back is not good at all

What a dumb spot for someone coming off a serious neck injury. Especially at a house show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What a dumb spot for someone coming off a serious neck injury. Especially at a house show.

For it to be a dumb spot, she'd have to agree to it / be in on it.

There's considerable thought that she wasn't expecting it, certainly at least not to the extent it was delivered.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pete Dunne‏Verified account
@PeteDunneYxB

IWGP Jr. champion vs WWE UK champion happened tonight in Milton Keynes in a venue with a max capacity of 170 people. What a bizarre time to be a wrestling fan

edit to add: separately, Will Ospreay pointed out that it was the first meeting of an IWGP champ & a WWE champ since Muta vs Hogan ... which took place before either he or Dunne was born.

[molson]

Enzo fired by the WWE after rape allegations.

At first, the allegations seemed just to be coming from a crazy person on twitter (who once did a fake pregnancy "prank" on social media for some reason), but there is a police report out there and pending police investigation.

So the company completely skipped over the suspension phase outlined in its conduct policy. Either they learned something bad, they know charges are coming and don't want to be seen as waffling on rape, or they're just tired of the guy and he was on thin ice anyway (he was already dressing in the arena hallways because he was banned from the locker room for various attitude-related issues). Edit: Also, a police report was apparently filed in October and the investigation has been pending since that time - if Enzo didn't make the company aware of that investigation, that could be grounds for a firing too.

[RainMaker]

I'm guessing it's a mix of him being on thin ice and the recent metoo movement stuff going on. They'll be promoting the Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania in the next few months heavily and probably don't want to be asked about it in public. Plus Enzo isn't a good wrestler and could always come back if he's cleared.

[RainMaker]

I haven't been watching much but did tune in for the Raw 25 show. It was lackluster in my opinion. The current product is predictable and boring. And there is only so many times you can bring out some attitude era wrestler to wave and have it mean anything.

The Stone Cold stuff was good though.

[PilotMan]

Just reupped my sub for RR through WM. I wonder what I missed?

[Maple Leafs]

Just reupped my sub for RR through WM. I wonder what I missed?
Oh dude it's crazy now. Brock Lesnar is champion, Roma Reigns is getting a huge push as the next big thing, and there's all this drama involving McMahons as authority figures. They really took things in a new direction, you might have trouble keeping up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from NJPW, reports that Kojima has a torn ACL. At 47, that's a tough comeback road.

He doesn't have a ton left in the tank, I mean let's be honest about it. But I enjoy his presence in the preshows & whatnot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Night 1 in Sapporo for NJPW New Beginnings series was pretty solid.

A nice twist and surprise finish in one place, a decided heelish behavior by a face in another place, some good work on the whole.

Not sure if night 2 (which starts at 1am eastern due to an afternoon start in Japan) can hold up against it simply because almost the entire undercard is a repeat from the night before aside from shuffles for different mains.

[murrayyyyy]

Not sure RR can top that. Will uncle dave give it 5 stars without any Tokyo Dome being located in Philly. And you just knew it wasn't over after the match.

Is he a mens version of bayley or dbrian?

[Suicane75]

Best match I've seen since Ishii in Long Beach or The G1.

[JonInMiddleGA]

well NJPW NB night 2 didn't match the wrestling of night 1 but they sure as hell found a way to make twitter explode

I had it open while watching, #njnbg went from not top ten to #2 in the world in about 2 mins flat.

[cartman]

Finally a trailer has been released for the HBO documentary on Andre the Giant.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/f_jTeuajas0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Toddzilla]

well NJPW NB night 2 didn't match the wrestling of night 1 but they sure as hell found a way to make twitter explode

I had it open while watching, #njnbg went from not top ten to #2 in the world in about 2 mins flat.

Seldom have so many tears been shed

[JonInMiddleGA]

Seldom have so many tears been shed

2nd night in a row that people were crying in the audience I believe.

[dubb93]

Men’s Rumble on early. Stinks to me like there may not be a popular winner.

[dubb93]

I could not have been more wrong. AJ vs. Nakamura at Wrestlemania. Can’t wait.

[dubb93]

Wonder if that means Rhonda is actually here? Trying to think why the men’s Rumble would go early. Probably wrong again.

[Mota]

I could not have been more wrong. AJ vs. Nakamura at Wrestlemania. Can’t wait.

That was a pleasant surprise. Although we all know the main event will still be Brock vs. douchebag (ie. Roman Reigns).

I'm constantly astounded as how WWE continuously presents a product where the fans take a steaming dump over it, and they still keep coming back for more.

[murrayyyyy]

Did Trips have final say on this Rumble? I'm not sure anything was really done wrong minus MOJO being in a match.

Great weekend as I was sports entertained the entire time

[PilotMan]

That was a pleasant surprise. Although we all know the main event will still be Brock vs. douchebag (ie. Roman Reigns).

I'm constantly astounded as how WWE continuously presents a product where the fans take a steaming dump over it, and they still keep coming back for more.

I'd like to introduce you to B.F. Skinner.

[murrayyyyy]

ʜᴇᴇʟ ʙ� ɴᴀᴛᴜʀᴇ on Twitter: "Prior to working the Royal Rumble match, the women's competitors pose for a photo during a walkthrough of the match earlier in the day.… https://t.co/u9W10yn8I0" (https://twitter.com/HeelByNatureYT/status/957945733885276160)

Picture of the Royal Rumble entrants for the womens version before the match. Pretty safe to say the most history in one pic for womens wrestling.

[RainMaker]

I thought the Rumble was real good. Great mix of spots and surprise entrants. Plus the other matches on the card were good although I kind of hate having the WWE Championship on so early as it seems to lessen the prestige of the title.

My only other gripe is that Shane and Stephanie are the worst parts of the show.

[RainMaker]

Also the NXT show was great the other night too. That main event was incredible (maybe the best NXT match ever?). A part of me thinks they should have pulled the trigger and let Gargano win only to have it taken from him at his first title defense thanks to Ciampa screwing him over. He feels like their Daniel Bryan.

Cole vs Black was really fun. Dream and Ohno was solid. And I like watching the Authors of Pain. Only gripe there is O'Reilly and Fish have been booked so weak in NXT that it didn't make sense having them beat AOP.

[murrayyyyy]

I thought the Rumble was real good. Great mix of spots and surprise entrants. Plus the other matches on the card were good although I kind of hate having the WWE Championship on so early as it seems to lessen the prestige of the title.

Where would you put it though? They usually open the show with someone who can get the crowd hyped and those 3 wrestlers/themes had the best shot out of what was left minus Rusev Day having a match. Roode was on the pre-show because MOJO didn't deserve the main show (wish Roode had wrestled an old person who was told the rumble was full). Both tag team matches won't get the crowd hyped anywhere near what Sami's song does.

If they opened with those tag matches the crowd would have been flat for the men's rumble.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The considerably anticipated next episode of "Being The Elite" is up.

Gotta say -- like 'em or not -- they did a fine fuckin job of putting this one together. And if you watch, do NOT bail until the very end.

To have it be coherent, fit the existing NJPW story and actually add context to it, and to do it with a minimal amount of laughs ... well just damn.

[Suicane75]

The considerably anticipated next episode of "Being The Elite" is up.

Gotta say -- like 'em or not -- they did a fine fuckin job of putting this one together. And if you watch, do NOT bail until the very end.

To have it be coherent, fit the existing NJPW story and actually add context to it, and to do it with a minimal amount of laughs ... well just damn.

I know this is just me bemoaning my personal preference and they're doing fine without catering to me, but if the Bucks could be just a little more serious and a little less spotty, I would love them so much.

[CU Tiger]

For anyone who watched Raw last night.
I had it on as background noise while working on a work project.

The Sasha/Asuka spot where Sasha dove through the ropes and landed awkwardly. That was certainly a botched spot, right? I mean at first I though OMG she just broke her neck...but they replayed it a bunch which they typically avoid with botches.

Thoughts?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know this is just me bemoaning my personal preference and they're doing fine without catering to me, but if the Bucks could be just a little more serious and a little less spotty, I would love them so much.

There's quite possibly nobody with a longer history of hating on the Jackson bros than me. I hated them from the first couple of appearances they made on NWA television (back when that was a thing) and pretty consistently afterwards.

That said, they've come an awfully long way in that regard. The night two match in Sapporro is a reasonable example. They told a story, with largely proper ring psychology, even came up with one that would play a role in other events later in the night. That's a pretty damned good night's work.

We end up seeing them, I think, in a lot of different situations. They jerk curtains, they have bigger matches up the card, they work 3/4/5 man tags, they serve(d) as Omega's seconds. And we see all those things in both North American and Japan, in very differently positioned & differently structured promotions. Each of those situations calls for a different approach, and sometimes being the crowd lifting entertaining jesters IS the right call. Or the spotmonkeys, because that's what lifts the opponents most. Or whatever is called for in the combination of event,location, opponent, card position. They don't get it exactly right every single time but I feel like they go the right direction more often than not, and maybe don't get credit for that as much as they should.

Me? I'm still waiting for the day @#$%@#$ Osprey sells reliably instead of flippin' around like he's a ballerina having a seizure.

[Suicane75]

For anyone who watched Raw last night.
I had it on as background noise while working on a work project.

The Sasha/Asuka spot where Sasha dove through the ropes and landed awkwardly. That was certainly a botched spot, right? I mean at first I though OMG she just broke her neck...but they replayed it a bunch which they typically avoid with botches.

Thoughts?

It was Sasha. She's botched that dive about half a dozen times now. She's awful. She's gonna end up hurting herself or someone else badly. And I'm not even counting the Paige thing against her.

[Suicane75]

There's quite possibly nobody with a longer history of hating on the Jackson bros than me. I hated them from the first couple of appearances they made on NWA television (back when that was a thing) and pretty consistently afterwards.

That said, they've come an awfully long way in that regard. The night two match in Sapporro is a reasonable example. They told a story, with largely proper ring psychology, even came up with one that would play a role in other events later in the night. That's a pretty damned good night's work.

We end up seeing them, I think, in a lot of different situations. They jerk curtains, they have bigger matches up the card, they work 3/4/5 man tags, they serve(d) as Omega's seconds. And we see all those things in both North American and Japan, in very differently positioned & differently structured promotions. Each of those situations calls for a different approach, and sometimes being the crowd lifting entertaining jesters IS the right call. Or the spotmonkeys, because that's what lifts the opponents most. Or whatever is called for in the combination of event,location, opponent, card position. They don't get it exactly right every single time but I feel like they go the right direction more often than not, and maybe don't get credit for that as much as they should.

Me? I'm still waiting for the day @#$%@#$ Osprey sells reliably instead of flippin' around like he's a ballerina having a seizure.

I'm the exact opposite in that I like one or two out of 10 of their matches, but I REALLY like those two.

The NYE match lost me about a minute in when they got the heat on the Tempora Boys cause one of em missed a dive that there was no point in doing to begin with (I know, I know), but seriously, it was just like, I'm doing this so they can take over. No fucking psychology at all.

Then one of the rematches, I think it might have been Nick, was in a Sharpshooter and he starts doing the fucking old timey comedy fist in mouth spot as "selling". Totally took me out of the match. I can't watch those two teams work together.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't watch those two teams work together.

I have a tough time watching R3k period honestly.

[murrayyyyy]

For anyone who watched Raw last night.
I had it on as background noise while working on a work project.

The Sasha/Asuka spot where Sasha dove through the ropes and landed awkwardly. That was certainly a botched spot, right? I mean at first I though OMG she just broke her neck...but they replayed it a bunch which they typically avoid with botches.

Thoughts?

100% on Sasha. Everyone loves to blame the person she is wrestling but she's too dangerous.

video for those who haven't seen it.

https://streamable.com/0457k

[RainMaker]

Yeah I have a feeling Sasha is not long for the wrestling business the way she goes.

[RainMaker]

Where would you put it though? They usually open the show with someone who can get the crowd hyped and those 3 wrestlers/themes had the best shot out of what was left minus Rusev Day having a match. Roode was on the pre-show because MOJO didn't deserve the main show (wish Roode had wrestled an old person who was told the rumble was full). Both tag team matches won't get the crowd hyped anywhere near what Sami's song does.

If they opened with those tag matches the crowd would have been flat for the men's rumble.

Did the show really need a WWE title match? Couldn't you have opened with AJ/Roode (or even Shane) vs Owens/Zayn? The two rumbles are the reason people tune in and I think it hurts to just have the WWE Championship as a throwaway match on a card.

[murrayyyyy]

Did the show really need a WWE title match? Couldn't you have opened with AJ/Roode (or even Shane) vs Owens/Zayn? The two rumbles are the reason people tune in and I think it hurts to just have the WWE Championship as a throwaway match on a card.

Maybe but it would have left the title off PPV's until March since AJ won it in December as it goes Rumble and then Chamber(RAW). I don't know if it would matter since the Universal Title is every 3 months but I think they felt they had to keep the title visible every PPV with the waste of one on Brock.

Won't know until tonight but it seems like the goal was to plant the seed of Owens/Zayn riff to be paid off @ Mania. (With Zayn telling Owens he's got this for the 10th Rumble spot). They gave Zayn the victory last week over AJ to build on the riff also.

Also a note on Roode's open challenge. Heard it was suppose to be against Adam Cole but they didn't want Cole losing in 7 mins so it got changed to StayHype at the last second. Have they finally learned not to bury NXT talent once they get to the main roster on the men's side finally?

[RainMaker]

Has Cole won a big match in NXT yet? Not sure you can bury a guy who isn't really being pushed hard in NXT.

Here's Sasha:

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="iFrYMXQ"><a href="//imgur.com/iFrYMXQ"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[JonInMiddleGA]

Has Cole won a big match in NXT yet? Not sure you can bury a guy who isn't really being pushed hard in NXT.

with an assist from profightdb

Cole is 18-15-2 in NXT

1-0 vs EY (debut)
4-2 vs Roderick (dq loss on TV, 3 house show wins)
0-4 vs McIntyre (triple threat w/Almas, house shows, and a dark match)
0-3 vs Aleister
0-2 vs Almas (triples w/Strong, house shows)
1-0 vs Chad Lail (house show)
0-1 vs Lars Sullivan (dq, house show)

That's 6-12 in singles matches of any kind, so him 12-3-2 in tags
The signature win being his team victory at NXT: War Games

[Mota]

100% on Sasha. Everyone loves to blame the person she is wrestling but she's too dangerous.

video for those who haven't seen it.

https://streamable.com/0457k

Wow, it was almost like she got negative airtime on that leap. The moment her feet left the mat, her head went straight down. That was pretty scary looking!

[murrayyyyy]

Has Cole won a big match in NXT yet? Not sure you can bury a guy who isn't really being pushed hard

For his age, he has a huge advantage over most on the NXT roster with his mic skills. I'd assume the same for EC3. There is no way either is in NXT more than Ricochet.

[murrayyyyy]

Wow, it was almost like she got negative airtime on that leap. The moment her feet left the mat, her head went straight down. That was pretty scary looking!

I think ahe took off too close to the ropes and pulled up thinking ahe was going to far. Unfortunately she ended up going no where but down. The sound is worse but she hits the led screen with her hand trying to break her fall instead of her neck. Problem is she seems to do this on every move outside of the ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

For his age, he has a huge advantage over most on the NXT roster with his mic skills. I'd assume the same for EC3. There is no way either is in NXT more than Ricochet.

But can Ricochet really be bound for anywhere other than 205Live any time soon? And if not, then is that really better than being in NXT?

[murrayyyyy]

But can Ricochet really be bound for anywhere other than 205Live any time soon? And if not, then is that really better than being in NXT?

I don't see 205 lasting. (I know, they have a GM in Rockstar Spud, woo freakin hoo) I do think there will always be a spot for flippity guys as kids love them and don't care about ring psychology.

I think a lot of things depend on if FOX/UFC breakup is real (UFC looking for a big contract) and FOX decides to sign/buy WWE this year. I'm sure Vince would give a discount to FOX if they would sign the XFL also. I forget what UFC is getting (200M a year?) but that would be a nice raise for WWE.

If they sign with FOX it would probably mean a 2 hr RAW just because most FOX stations have a news program @ 10. Would they make a third "brand"? Sort of a 205Live/AAA baseball mentality? The Return of Saturday Night Main Event? (Was that on FOX?) I mean if they buy it outright then they could produce numerous shows for FS1 and FS2. I swear there is a different UFC show on there every hour when soccer isn't on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't see 205 lasting. (I know, they have a GM in Rockstar Spud, woo freakin hoo) I do think there will always be a spot for flippity guys as kids love them and don't care about ring psychology.

Is that who they picked? LOL, I mean, that's really my gut reaction to the choice.

If they sign with FOX it would probably mean a 2 hr RAW just because most FOX stations have a news program @ 10. Would they make a third "brand"? Sort of a 205Live/AAA baseball mentality? The Return of Saturday Night Main Event? (Was that on FOX?) I mean if they buy it outright then they could produce numerous shows for FS1 and FS2. I swear there is a different UFC show on there every hour when soccer isn't on.

I'd pretty much guarantee that you won't see broadcast affiliates carrying wrestling even if there is a Fox deal. Sinclair-owned affiliates damn near mutinied against their own ownership to get out of putting it anywhere outside of overnights in virtually every market. And no, the difference isn't between ROH & Raw, the issue was about it being virtually unsellable locally in most markets, the image issues with wrestling fans are very much alive & well.

The hypothetical purchase would be to prop up their various cable outlets, with maybe one or two broadcast specials at the most. Anything beyond that would be completely shocking to me.

edit to add: Making it even more unlikely is the fact that company-owned (O&O) affiliates make up less than 10% of the Fox broadcast affiliates. If Sinclair couldn't convince stations they actually own then Fox ain't gonna have any better luck. All the ratings in the world don't mean shit if you can't sell ads, and local affiliates are just not equipped (psychologically) to do that even with Raw

[RainMaker]

Why don't they just make the cruiserweight division part of the regular show? They have 5 hours of TV a week. They can't fit in a couple good matches and some stories?

[murrayyyyy]

Why don't they just make the cruiserweight division part of the regular show? They have 5 hours of TV a week. They can't fit in a couple good matches and some stories?

Are they exclusive to a brand? They usually have a match on RAW but then have their show after smackdown. Seems like they are the new bathroom break.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Why don't they just make the cruiserweight division part of the regular show? They have 5 hours of TV a week. They can't fit in a couple good matches and some stories?

Because they're struggling to get guys over, err, over there as it is.

They have a fair bit of talent in the division, yet even I can't seem to work up two shits worth of interest in it. Not sure exactly where/how/why it's misfiring but it just feels ... off somehow.

Not sure trying to shove them into either of the top two programs is going to be any better a situation (especially since the matches would likely be too short to let anything other than a spot or two be involved)

[murrayyyyy]

Because they're struggling to get guys over, err, over there as it is.

They have a fair bit of talent in the division, yet even I can't seem to work up two shits worth of interest in it. Not sure exactly where/how/why it's misfiring but it just feels ... off somehow.

Not sure trying to shove them into either of the top two programs is going to be any better a situation (especially since the matches would likely be too short to let anything other than a spot or two be involved)

No one wants to be labeled as a cruiserweight. Neville got tired of it which you can see easily. He was at King of the Ring level and being given matches against Cena only to be put on 205 live. It's where careers go to die.

Ask Tozawa, Kalisto, Rich Swann, Enzo (who thrived there but...), etc. In fact the WWE has announced a 16 man tournament with the title being determined at Mania. They only have 16 cruiserweights on the roster with 2 hurt Dar and Kendrick, Swann is still suspended, Neville is sitting out. So that's 4 of the 16. They had Tyler Bate lose to TJP in the first match and have Strong coming up from NXT to lose to Itami one can assume next week.

Maybe Ricochet isn't in NXT for long.

[Suicane75]

The problem with 205 live is it's just small guys wrestling WWE style. If you tune in expecting to see some iteration of previous generations juniors divisions, you're in for a sad awakening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's where careers go to die.

Only true if you've reached a certain level beyond that.

Ask Tozawa, Kalisto, Rich Swann, Enzo (who thrived there but...)

That certain doesn't apply to Swann, nor to Tozawa (outside of the IWC) and might not realistically apply to Kalisto either (despite his previous push).

That's the thing, there's a somewhat sizable nether region that could include a lot of people these days. Being in 205 isn't really doing any harm to their mainstream audience appeal, though it ain't doing much good for it either. But the guy's alternatives aren't going to be any better from that standpoint.

I think the whole let's-sign-some-cruiserweights was WWE's attempt to give themselves time to figure out what they might be able to do with the guys & the style. 205 is sort of them trying to figure it out. I don't know that they really can or will.

[Mota]

Because they're struggling to get guys over, err, over there as it is.

They have a fair bit of talent in the division, yet even I can't seem to work up two shits worth of interest in it. Not sure exactly where/how/why it's misfiring but it just feels ... off somehow.

Not sure trying to shove them into either of the top two programs is going to be any better a situation (especially since the matches would likely be too short to let anything other than a spot or two be involved)

Remember the Cruiserweight tournament, when they marketed it as something completely different, and the talent really got a chance to shine.

Then they make this 205 Live show, and it's exactly like WWE. If you take away the thing that makes these guys unique, they are just generic small guys doing flippy flippy.

Also, some of these guys weren't even at the top of the cards in their respective minor leagues. So signing 20'ish guys at once just because of their size is probably not the best idea. Even the guys who are super talented get marginalized by that. Especially in WWE and WCW, there has been years and years of training by their management to us that the cruiserweights are bathroom break material. So eventually the fans believe it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Remember the Cruiserweight tournament, when they marketed it as something completely different, and the talent really got a chance to shine. Then they make this 205 Live show, and it's exactly like WWE. f you take away the thing that makes these guys unique, they are just generic small guys doing flippy flippy.

There is a fair bit of difference. But I'm not sure that WWE understands that difference. Case in point, the match the (reportedly) upset the crowd so much in New York on annivesary night, 4 cruisers who got a whopping 3-4 minutes to work a "match". In that length of time, it isnothing but a little bit of choreography.

But in some WWE minds, that's apparently supposedly to be a-ok. For a theatrical based promotion, they sure don't seem to get that there needs to be some sort of story told in the ring as well.

Also, some of these guys weren't even at the top of the cards in their respective minor leagues.

I'm not entirely sure I'm too troubled by that aspect. I mean, if you took literally nothing but an all-star (talent) lineup, somebody ends up being underpromoted in terms of card position just 'cause of the numbers. So I'm kind of okay with the mix of guys they signed, generally speaking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Omega vs Cody announced for "the fate of the bullet club" ... at ROH Supercard of Honor in New Orleans.

They are bound and determined to convince my child to make that damned trip to NOLA.

[murrayyyyy]

Omega vs Cody announced for "the fate of the bullet club" ... at ROH Supercard of Honor in New Orleans.

They are bound and determined to convince my child to make that damned trip to NOLA.

Crap, was hoping it would be @ Anniversary in March here in Vegas but knew the venue is too small for it to happen here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Crap, was hoping it would be @ Anniversary in March here in Vegas but knew the venue is too small for it to happen here.

I'm a little surprised that they're dragging it out so far, and a little surprised (but less than the timing) that NJPW doesn't get the resolution.

To me, all signs point to things going Cody's way so that he & the Bucks can be mostly stateside between now & their show in Chicago.

[murrayyyyy]

I'm a little surprised that they're dragging it out so far, and a little surprised (but less than the timing) that NJPW doesn't get the resolution.

To me, all signs point to things going Cody's way so that he & the Bucks can be mostly stateside between now & their show in Chicago.

Yeah but New Japan Cup is coming up (so likely won't see many NJPW guys at Anniversary in Vegas as it starts the same night) so they'll have a chance for Cody to cost Omega the Cup to boil over the next month in N'awlins.

[murrayyyyy]

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

Braun Strowman bashes Elias with a bass: Raw, Feb. 12, 2018 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-xe1qxhcUI)

[JonInMiddleGA]

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

They've gotten a lot more from him than I thought was there

[PilotMan]

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

Braun Strowman bashes Elias with a bass: Raw, Feb. 12, 2018 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-xe1qxhcUI)

That was a really entertaining bit. They totally nailed it.

[Suicane75]

I'm very torn on Strowman. He's great at clusterfucks, great at skits, but his in ring work just isn't there yet to where you can put the title on him. Him vs Brock at WM would likely die the same death their previous match did unless you totally change it up and just let them go nuts. Even then, it'd be hard pressed to keep the belt on him working actual matches. But I fucking love everything else about him.

That being said, I really have no interest in seeing Brock/Roman again, especially to close out WM, and there really isn't anyone else you could put in the challengers spot that would be a WM worthy main event. Now, if they were willing to let AJ/Nakamura go on last, that's a different story, but I just don't see that happening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The latest episode ("Pull Apart") of Being The Elite is pretty darned well done.

Love 'em or hate 'em or don't give two shits either way, they've come quite a ways since starting that series on YT -- things like the camera work and the editing -- and figuring out how to handle the current storyline within the context of the YT series was certainly no easy task, but they've done a good job with it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Speaking of social media stuff ... somehow I'd never heard Gallows & Anderson do other people's shows (Jericho, Austin). They're a damned stitch.

[Comey]

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

Braun Strowman bashes Elias with a bass: Raw, Feb. 12, 2018 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-xe1qxhcUI)

The best is that Coach laughed right as it happened. That was fantastic.

[murrayyyyy]

So which show will have the rights to ruin Johnny Gargano? Daniel Bryan 2.0 seems destined to be ruined like every call up is from NXT.

[RainMaker]

It sounds like he'll be on 205 Live which sucks.

[murrayyyyy]

Probably the most predictable PPV in a long time. Glad I didn't drop the money to go see it. Not saying the matches were horrible, it just felt like a longer Smackdown episode to me.

[murrayyyyy]

Also a chance to get my hopes up for Omega @ Anniversary in 2 weeks as he is skipping the Cup this year.

Danny on Twitter: "Kenny in a Tokyo Sports interview on why he’s not in the New Japan Cup.

Thx to @DartVader_1… " (https://twitter.com/dajosc11/status/968160269238226945)

[RainMaker]

I usually watch Wrestlemania but I really don't have any interest this year. Rousey does absolutely nothing for me. Especially when HHH and Stephanie are the focal point per usual. And Reigns coronation for another year seems boring. Plus they just killed Braun's push and it sounds like he'll be up against the Miz which no one should care about.

AJ-Nakamura should be fun if they are given time but there is nothing else on that card I'm remotely interested in.

[Mota]

So which show will have the rights to ruin Johnny Gargano? Daniel Bryan 2.0 seems destined to be ruined like every call up is from NXT.

I went to NXT in Barrie, Ont yesterday and it was pretty decent. Johnny Gargano is a total face. The kind that actually gets cheered. He had the crowd with him during his entire match. They felt his pain. They cheered when he had his moments, and then after the show, he stayed and shook hands with anybody in the entire arena that wanted to (that's a lot of people). On Twitter, Steve Corino made a comment on that, how impressed he was with Gargano.

Meanwhile, the guy main eventing Wrestlemania gets booed out of the building every night, is thoroughly unlikeable, but gets everything handed to him on a silver platter for years on end. It's the same story as 2014, nothing ever changes.

Also got to see Ricochet for the first time, that guy is one of the most athletic guys i have ever seen in the ring. His wrestling is miles better than it was a few years ago as well, he is more than just a bunch of high spots now. He will be a main roster guy real soon.

[murrayyyyy]

Meanwhile, the guy main eventing Wrestlemania gets booed out of the building every night, is thoroughly unlikeable, but gets everything handed to him on a silver platter for years on end. It's the same story as 2014, nothing ever changes.

But who else can they lean on to main event Mania? The champ who has been on TV less than Alicia Fox? He's had 7 matches since Wrestlemania. Think about that. Joe or Strowman have pretty much been all of those matches minus the 4 way (Roman's only match with Brock). So they have to find someone to lean on. Joe got hurt, Seth got hurt, Finn got hurt, Dean got hurt, Show, Big Cass, Jeff Hardy even Jason Jordan. If you get a push at the top, you were probably injured.

Super Cena even took a clean loss on RAW in a singles match (something that had not happened since 2009). At least Roman has eaten his fair share of losses over the past 3 years on regular TV. They had the fans behind Roman with the Shield 2.0 and then Dean went and got hurt.

[murrayyyyy]

Well crap, should have watched RAW last night as basically everything I typed was in Roman's promo.

https://streamable.com/b8eod

Still seemed scripted but at least they are letting him seem like a bas ass instead of talking about tater tots.

[Maple Leafs]

Still seemed scripted but at least they are letting him seem like a bas ass instead of talking about tater tots.
Certainly scripted, but one of the best promos in recent years and probably the best of Reigns' career. He went from getting booed to getting a Rock-like face reaction in like 30 seconds.

Will be interesting to see where they go from here, though. You can't promote the match as some sort of "real" fight, since nobody would consider that a serious contest and it makes everything else on the card look lame. But as a temporary reset of the alignments, it might work.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But who else can they lean on to main event Mania?

You've got an AJ / Nakamura match in hand, having Reigns v Parttimer main event is a joke.

[murrayyyyy]

Certainly scripted, but one of the best promos in recent years and probably the best of Reigns' career. He went from getting booed to getting a Rock-like face reaction in like 30 seconds.

Will be interesting to see where they go from here, though. You can't promote the match as some sort of "real" fight, since nobody would consider that a serious contest and it makes everything else on the card look lame. But as a temporary reset of the alignments, it might work.

It was short lived as he got booed out of the building in the dark match after RAW from reports.

[murrayyyyy]

You've got an AJ / Nakamura match in hand, having Reigns v Parttimer main event is a joke.

5 years too late unfortunately. Same with Cena-Taker which should be given consideration as the main event over Brock-Reigns. I'd much rather see them as I'm enjoying the broken man Cena program right now over what will probably be Brock's last match in the WWE.

[JonInMiddleGA]

5 years too late unfortunately. Same with Cena-Taker which should be given consideration as the main event over Brock-Reigns. I'd much rather see them as I'm enjoying the broken man Cena program right now over what will probably be Brock's last match in the WWE.

Even several years too late, it's still the best thing they've got.

edit to add: At least there's a chance it wouldn't be a shit fest.

[murrayyyyy]

Even several years too late, it's still the best thing they've got.

edit to add: At least there's a chance it wouldn't be a shit fest.

The only thing they could do to make Mania interesting this year is a roster shake up @ Mania.

[RainMaker]

You've got an AJ / Nakamura match in hand, having Reigns v Parttimer main event is a joke.

I actually think they're going to put Rousey on last. Vince loves himself some mainstream coverage and ending the show with Rousey winning would get it. Plus HHH/Steph sure love being the center of attention.

I'd add that I hate these pay-per-views that fall in-between RR and WM. You know who's going to win going in. They should cut it to one PPV before Mania with both shows participating and drop the championship matches. For instance, there is a fatal 5-way for the WWE Championship taking place at Fastlane and we all know who's going to win it (AJ).

[RainMaker]

The only thing they could do to make Mania interesting this year is a roster shake up @ Mania.

Only interesting thing I can think of is Reigns turning heel. And no chance Vince does that even though I think it would be great for him.

[Mota]

But who else can they lean on to main event Mania? The champ who has been on TV less than Alicia Fox? He's had 7 matches since Wrestlemania. Think about that. Joe or Strowman have pretty much been all of those matches minus the 4 way (Roman's only match with Brock). So they have to find someone to lean on. Joe got hurt, Seth got hurt, Finn got hurt, Dean got hurt, Show, Big Cass, Jeff Hardy even Jason Jordan. If you get a push at the top, you were probably injured.

Super Cena even took a clean loss on RAW in a singles match (something that had not happened since 2009). At least Roman has eaten his fair share of losses over the past 3 years on regular TV. They had the fans behind Roman with the Shield 2.0 and then Dean went and got hurt.

If anybody got a main event spot this year, they were placeholders. We all know, and we've known for the last year, that they were going to make Lesnar untouchable so that Reigns could get the main event and get his big win against him to make him "the man". And that's exactly how it has played out so far. Nakamura winning the Royal Rumble so he can get the main event in Wrestlemania? I think it's reduced by this. He got the CM Punk treatment when CM PUnk was the champ, but for some reason never headlined a PPV for months. Something always downplayed him.

That's exactly why the fans have turned against Reigns. He's received the longest coronation ever. And when the fans rebel, they push it back by a year, but you know it's coming back the next year. Vince will have his way.

[Mota]

You've got an AJ / Nakamura match in hand, having Reigns v Parttimer main event is a joke.

WIth Lesnar possibly leaving, this match could be equivalent to Lesnar / Goldberg from 2003 (or whatever the year was).

[Schmidty]

Certainly scripted, but one of the best promos in recent years and probably the best of Reigns' career. He went from getting booed to getting a Rock-like face reaction in like 30 seconds.

Will be interesting to see where they go from here, though. You can't promote the match as some sort of "real" fight, since nobody would consider that a serious contest and it makes everything else on the card look lame. But as a temporary reset of the alignments, it might work.

I dislike Reigns, but that was a really great promo.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

Also, has Cena been this bad in the ring for long? I stopped watching wwe years ago and just started watching again last year, but I don’t remember him sucking this much. My wife, who knows nothing about wrestling, watched SD with me last night and she even called the Styles/Cena match cringe-worthy. Styles is so out of his league, it was a ridiculous match to watch. 20 AAs from Cena and that’s it, while AJ is flying around out there. Really bad. Hogan bad.

[AlexB]

I dislike Reigns, but that was a really great promo.

I don’t think it was fully scripted, but i reckon it was certainly worked on beforehand. Also think there was more than element of truth to it, maybe exaggerated, but there seemed a real axe to grind somewhere there.

[Ryche]

What the hell is up with all the captions while people are talking on Smackdown? It's like something out of Sesame Street.

[murrayyyyy]

Dola.

Also, has Cena been this bad in the ring for long? I stopped watching wwe years ago and just started watching again last year, but I don’t remember him sucking this much. My wife, who knows nothing about wrestling, watched SD with me last night and she even called the Styles/Cena match cringe-worthy. Styles is so out of his league, it was a ridiculous match to watch. 20 AAs from Cena and that’s it, while AJ is flying around out there. Really bad. Hogan bad.

For what it's worth, Cena-Styles from 17 Rumble was seen by most as the top WWE match of the year.

I'm not sure Cena has it anymore but it's because of the amount of time he is spending on movie sets. They are probably in protection mode with both of them as they don't want a repeat of WM32 with everything being ruined because of injuries the month before Mania.

[Carman Bulldog]

But who else can they lean on to main event Mania?

This is somewhat self-fulfilling though, no? I mean, they've failed to push anyone else at that level and the response is "Well, I guess no one else is at that level" *shrug*. Are you suggesting that with the right push Rollins, Balor, Styles, Nakamura, Cesaro and Braun could not be relied on to main event? Heck, given the right push, I would even add borderline guys such as Owens, Wyatt (maybe...?), Miz(?), as well as Zayn and maybe even Roode based on their NXT responses.

While I concede that both Rollins and Balor have had some poorly timed injuries when they got their shot, Roman's also had some more minor injuries in the past four years (not to mention a PED... sorry wellness... suspension) only to get plugged back in right at the top. So I'm not sure I buy that argument either (especially with this Jon Bravo/Richard Rodriguez PED story looming).

Furthermore, how often was Shawn Michaels "injured" prior to main-eventing Wrestlemania's 12 and 14. Yet they still managed to "lean" on him. I mean, Steve Austin also suffered an injury in the middle of his first major push and had to relinquish his title. Does that mean that they should have never given him an opportunity again?

[Carman Bulldog]

I should add, if Reigns-Lesnar is the main event and goes on last (and I have no reason to believe it won't), then it will mark 4 straight years that Reigns has been in the Wrestlemania main event.

Only one other person has done that in history and that is Hogan.

Not Austin, Cena, Rock, HHH, HBK, Undertaker, or anyone else.

Hulk Hogan, Roman Reigns. That's it.

[murrayyyyy]

I should add, if Reigns-Lesnar is the main event and goes on last (and I have no reason to believe it won't), then it will mark 4 straight years that Reigns has been in the Wrestlemania main event.

Only one other person has done that in history and that is Hogan.

Not Austin, Cena, Rock, HHH, HBK, Undertaker, or anyone else.

Hulk Hogan, Roman Reigns. That's it.

I think we are headed towards Rhonda being the main event with HHH/Angle wrestling the bulk of the match. I mean it's no Lawrence Taylor winning the main event of Mania but Brock's deal ending combined with Roman's 2016 problems may push this one down the card and they usually want to end with a longer match. I'm not sure an unmotivated ($$$) Brock can stretch a match to 10+ minutes.

[murrayyyyy]

This is somewhat self-fulfilling though, no? I mean, they've failed to push anyone else at that level and the response is "Well, I guess no one else is at that level" *shrug*. Are you suggesting that with the right push Rollins, Balor, Styles, Nakamura, Cesaro and Braun could not be relied on to main event? Heck, given the right push, I would even add borderline guys such as Owens, Wyatt (maybe...?), Miz(?), as well as Zayn and maybe even Roode based on their NXT responses.

While I concede that both Rollins and Balor have had some poorly timed injuries when they got their shot, Roman's also had some more minor injuries in the past four years (not to mention a PED... sorry wellness... suspension) only to get plugged back in right at the top. So I'm not sure I buy that argument either (especially with this Jon Bravo/Richard Rodriguez PED story looming).

Furthermore, how often was Shawn Michaels "injured" prior to main-eventing Wrestlemania's 12 and 14. Yet they still managed to "lean" on him. I mean, Steve Austin also suffered an injury in the middle of his first major push and had to relinquish his title. Does that mean that they should have never given him an opportunity again?

It's the lack of them being able to put over a face in today's wrestling climate I think. I mean they struggled with Roman but at least he's been there to try to push having avoided major injuries.

Personally, Rollins and Styles are the only two on that list who could main event Mania. It's too early for Braun (but I could see him carrying the strap going into something like Summerslam), Cesaro and Naka are a no go as they can't carry their respective shows and Balor seems off for some reason to me within the WWE. I'm not sure Balor gives a shit half the time. There have been complaints about people just waiting for their turn to be champion and I think of him every time. Owens could be but does a bad guy go over that often at Mania as of late? It's hard to even believe that Wyatt was a champion before and Canadian Triple H is horrifically boring as a face.

I think Rollins has been given top story lines after injuries. Like I said earlier, I think something is wrong with Balor's drive. It's either that or when he is in the ring he looks so much smaller than the other guys.

As far as Michaels (who I've never been a fan of) what else was going on? Stone Cold v Vega? Warrior v HHH (maybe the worst Mania match ever)? And 14 was more about Mike Tyson than Michaels. Stone Cold was arguably a top 3 face of all time. Was he injured when they did that silly double pin and made him the ref between Kane and Taker? Or are we talking when he was the IC champ and got his neck injured by Owen?

Thinking about it, Balor might make a good run with the IC belt once Miz goes on maternity leave. Is the belt beneath Seth?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is the belt beneath Seth?

If it wasn't beneath Cena then it ain't beneath Seth.

[SirFozzie]

You think high spots are ridiculously contrived these days?

Check out this video from a 1970's french wrestling tape

History of Pro Wrestling on Twitter: "Best Jump over the Ropes..EVER !!!!… " (https://twitter.com/HistoryofWrest/status/969400193639768064)

[murrayyyyy]

If it wasn't beneath Cena then it ain't beneath Seth.

Cena's never held the IC belt so is it beneath him? :p

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cena's never held the IC belt so is it beneath him? :p

My bad, US rather than IC. Though we could still argue that the IC is the higher of the two.

I'll stick with my answer, that if Cena can carry any non-"World" title then said belt is not below anybody in the company (under the right circumstances)

[murrayyyyy]

ROH16 was much more satisfying to go to than Elimination Chamber(and 1/8 the ticket prices for better seats). First time to see Takahashi and MCM in person. Pretty solid 10 match card with the high point being the reveal of Bury the Bear. Castle-Lethal had actual ring psychology so my kid didn't know how to react. Hopefully TV tapings are just as good tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

ROH16 was much more satisfying to go to than Elimination Chamber(and 1/8 the ticket prices for better seats). First time to see Takahashi and MCM in person. Pretty solid 10 match card with the high point being the reveal of Bury the Bear. Castle-Lethal had actual ring psychology so my kid didn't know how to react. Hopefully TV tapings are just as good tonight.

I saw the recaps afterwards. Sounded like a heck of a curtain jerker too, with Gordon vs Hiromu

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jeff Hardy charged with DWI tonight in NC after a single-car accident.

(under the influence of what hasn't been clarified yet)

[RainMaker]

Can't say I'm surprised.

Will be interesting to see what WWE does here. But I'm guessing he is let go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Can't say I'm surprised.

Will be interesting to see what WWE does here. But I'm guessing he is let go.

My kid pointed out that -- in theory -- he could have been taking legit prescription med(s) after his surgery. So he might have some way to save himself but it ain't looking good.

Also, Woken Matt tweets "EVAH since the #7Deities have come to me, I do not put alcohol, drugs, or foreign substances into my VESSEL. I AM MORE"

which kinda sounds to me like he just threw his brother under the bus

[murrayyyyy]

My kid pointed out that -- in theory -- he could have been taking legit prescription med(s) after his surgery. So he might have some way to save himself but it ain't looking good.

Also, Woken Matt tweets "EVAH since the #7Deities have come to me, I do not put alcohol, drugs, or foreign substances into my VESSEL. I AM MORE"

which kinda sounds to me like he just threw his brother under the bus

I mean if you hit a guardrail and they find pills in your car, you can be charged with DWI correct because they can't field test for that(in theory)? He's already been released from jail which seems weird as they hold you here until you sober up at least.

[murrayyyyy]

I saw the recaps afterwards. Sounded like a heck of a curtain jerker too, with Gordon vs Hiromu

As long as we don't count the 2 women's matches that were on facebook live then yes, it was a great curtain jerker. Way more women's matches this year compared to the past as it seems like they are going for that demographic suddenly.

[albionmoonlight]

In NC, you can get a DUI for a legal substance (i.e. prescription painkillers). However, it is generally not charged.

Also, the fact that they charged him that quickly indicates that it was likely either alcohol (breath test) or an illegal drug (any amount showing up on a blood test). If it were, say, Vicodin, there would probably be some time when they checked if he had a prescription, etc.

So, it is possible that this was just some painkillers. But it is highly probable that it was alcohol or marijuana.

[albionmoonlight]

I mean if you hit a guardrail and they find pills in your car, you can be charged with DWI correct because they can't field test for that(in theory)? He's already been released from jail which seems weird as they hold you here until you sober up at least.

In the situation of finding a bottle of pills, they would generally take a blood draw.

NC law is a little weird on the question of letting someone sober up. There was a case a while back where the guy got off because he claimed that he wanted to go to the hospital to get his own blood test and he could not because they wouldn't release him. And he won on appeal on that issue.

The current state of the law is kind of complicated, but the short of it is that they might release him if he is not seen as a danger and he has someone to release him to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

TMZ (who I have to admit has a pretty strong track record of getting this stuff right) says "Cops say he submitted to a breath test and blew a .25 -- more than three times the legal limit."

[murrayyyyy]

TMZ (who I have to admit has a pretty strong track record of getting this stuff right) says "Cops say he submitted to a breath test and blew a .25 -- more than three times the legal limit."

I assume he's in decent trouble with his past but didn't one of the Usos get a DUI a couple of months back and didn't drop the titles.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I assume he's in decent trouble with his past but didn't one of the Usos get a DUI a couple of months back and didn't drop the titles.

There have been some on the roster who skated pretty much free & clear of legal problems like this, others considerably less so.

His future may come down to what sort of agreement regarding substances they had with him.

His federal probation has long expired best I can tell, so there's probably no violation there (his plea bargain included treatment for substance abuse, so there was likely some alcohol clauses in that at the time, but it was like 2 yrs probation and that was way back in 2011)

[RainMaker]

I think his history will play a role in any decision. Plus it doesn't help that he's 40 and likely not going to be in the main event scene ever again.

Just doesn't seem like a ton of incentive for WWE to keep him around. They got the nostalgia run they wanted out of them and sold a bunch of merchandise. Not worth the possible bad publicity to see him kill someone in an accident while on the roster.

His best route might be to take WWE's offer of rehab and then come back. Makes it a little harder for the company to fire him from a PR standpoint.

[JonInMiddleGA]

His best route might be to take WWE's offer of rehab and then come back. Makes it a little harder for the company to fire him from a PR standpoint.

Not sure what the policy on rehiring 3rd-strike people even is honestly.

(It has been noted that his two previous strikes did remain on his record with the company & if this goes as a strike then, by company policy, they have no choice but to fire him. And if they send him to rehab while an employee then I'm pretty sure it has to be as part of a wellness policy violation)

[miami_fan]

WWE Drops Fabulous Moolah, Name Changed to WrestleMania Women&#x27;s Battle Royal | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2764683-wwe-drops-fabulous-moolah-name-changed-to-wrestlemania-womens-battle-royal?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial)

Did anyone know about these claims about Moolah?

[molson]

WWE Drops Fabulous Moolah, Name Changed to WrestleMania Women&#x27;s Battle Royal | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2764683-wwe-drops-fabulous-moolah-name-changed-to-wrestlemania-womens-battle-royal?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial)

Did anyone know about these claims about Moolah?

This reddit poster pulled together all of the various Moolah stories out there and summarized them:

In light of the controversy surrounding The Fabulous Moolah and her life, I decided to find everything I could on the subject and typed up this 6,000 word super post listing every terrible thing that Moolah has ever done with videos, interviews, quotes, and different sources to back everything up. : SquaredCircle (https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/84b2fe/in_light_of_the_controversy_surrounding_the/)

[murrayyyyy]

WWE Drops Fabulous Moolah, Name Changed to WrestleMania Women&#x27;s Battle Royal | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2764683-wwe-drops-fabulous-moolah-name-changed-to-wrestlemania-womens-battle-royal?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial)

Did anyone know about these claims about Moolah?

/r/squaredcircle has talked about it for years on reddit.

Thread from a couple of years ago: Why is The Fabulous Moolah disliked by people? : SquaredCircle (https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/3in0m0/why_is_the_fabulous_moolah_disliked_by_people/)

[albionmoonlight]

I had never heard any of that.

She seems like one of the worst people to ever exist.

[JonInMiddleGA]

She seems like one of the worst people to ever exist.

Or, you know, just about average for the business in her era.

My actual first comment aloud when I read this? "I guess there won't be any Bert Prentice tribute events". I mean, wrestling promoters are rather notoriously sleazy as a group and sex was certainly part of that in different ways.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oh, and my comment isn't meant to excuse anything Moolah may have done. My point was more along the lines of "If Snickers has a problem with what she may have done, they really have a problem with wrestling in general .... even if they aren't smart enough to figure that out"

[molson]

It's all about what gets on the radar of the important people. It's not a case-by-case moral determination.

All of this stuff with Moolah was well out there when they were still using her as a comedy character. This time, /r/squaredcircle is a thing, and I think they got to the Mars company, or somebody at Mars is a huge wrestling fan. If they did the same with Jimmy Snuka, he would have been gone much sooner too. If there was enough of a public backlash against Steve Austin for beating his various wives multiple times, the WWE would dissociate with him too.

Regular people have so much more of a voice with corporations than they do with politicians.

[murrayyyyy]

So when does RAW send the US Marshals to North Carolina? Probably the best Wyatt story line.

[JonInMiddleGA]

To their credit, they (WWE creative) didn't botch that nearly as badly as I expected they would.

The use of the globe & the song worked surprisingly (to me) well even.

[murrayyyyy]

Daniel Bryan formally cleared by WWE to return to in-ring action - CBSSports.com (https://www.cbssports.com/wwe/news/daniel-bryan-formally-cleared-by-wwe-to-return-to-in-ring-action/)

So his first match has to be in the superdome @ Mania, correct?

[RainMaker]

Daniel Bryan formally cleared by WWE to return to in-ring action - CBSSports.com (https://www.cbssports.com/wwe/news/daniel-bryan-formally-cleared-by-wwe-to-return-to-in-ring-action/)

So his first match has to be in the superdome @ Mania, correct?

They'd be dumb if they didn't.

I'm thinking a Shane/Bryan vs Zayn/Owens match would be great at Mania. Shane can take his dumb bump and everyone else can put on a great match.

[murrayyyyy]

They'd be dumb if they didn't.

I'm thinking a Shane/Bryan vs Zayn/Owens match would be great at Mania. Shane can take his dumb bump and everyone else can put on a great match.

I mean and if he's "back" he has to be on a Brock schedule too I would assume.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although I have relatively low expectations for the show based on the card, I will mention that NJPW's show in Long Beach is available live tonight on AXS. (8p eastern, 5p pacific).

I don't think it'll be the best sample of the overall product but if someone wanted to just see some of the roster in action live, there's an unusual opportunity that doesn't involve the company website.

#fwiw

[RainMaker]

Is there anyone I should be paying attention to? Don't really follow NJPW outside of a few top names.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is there anyone I should be paying attention to? Don't really follow NJPW outside of a few top names.

Half the guys involved? LOL.

I just did a quick match by match preview on my FB, I'll paste that here & you can pick & choose. Spoiler tagged just to cover up how long it is



9 matches in all

1) Rappongi 3k (Sho/Yoh/Rocky Romero) vs Scorpio Sky / Kazarian / Daniels. -- sort of a PWG opener. I'm not big on Sho/Yoh tbh but Daniels might be my favorite wrestler for most of a decade so I'm down with it.

2) David Finlay/Juice Robinson vs Gedo/Hirooki Goto -- Yes, that's Fit Finlay's kid :) Robinson is the rising gaijin in the company, Finlay has looked solid lately, and Gedo/Goto are veterans who should put them over well

3) Chuckie T / Toru Yano vs Davey Boy Smith, Jr & Lance Archer -- largely comedy guys vs Killer Elite Squad. The spots in this one might be the most predictable for regular viewers. Yano gonna Yano ... which means he can either get brutally beaten OR win via low blow & flash pin.

4) Guerrillas of Desinty (Tama Tonga & Tonga Loa) vs Marty Scurll + Cody Rhodes -- not sure what they did to set up the match between (ostensible) Bullet Club stable mates specifically (there's a ton of backstory for this though), Scurll is the guy to watch honestly, one of the best underrated heels in the business lately & can flat out work. GoD are the adopted sons of ring veteran/legend Haku.

5) 8-man tag -- an NJPW show staple, the eight man tag match. It's where everybody who needed to be on the show gets their spot in. On one side is Dragon Lee, Taguchi, Kushida, and "Ace" Hiroshi Tanahashi, on the other side is the brilliant Hiromu Takahashi, Bushi, SANADA, and Tetsuya Naito (collectively LiJ, Los Ingobernables de Japon).

Tanahashi is basically the NJPW John Cena with better work rate. Naito is the guy who really ought to be the current world champion. And Sanada is among the guys who are looking like they might get a singles push & has been doing great with his recent opportunities.

But I'm not sure I wanna try to explain what's going on if Taguchi starts waving runners home from third (if you see that, just roll with it, m'kay?)

6) Jushin Thunder Liger vs Will Ospreay -- the legendary veteran vs the poster child for "flippy floppy". This will either bring out the best of Liger (who basically only works 8 man tags lately) or it will be a sad c.f. of a match where Ospreay has to slow down to about 25% of his speed. An innovator that is a long way past his prime frankly vs a guy who is more acrobat than wrestler. Can you tell my expectations are super low?

7) Tomohiro Ishii & Kazuchika Okada vs Zack Sabre, Jr & Minoru Suzuki. -- oh dear, there's gonna be some wincing by fans who haven't seen these guys before. Ishii is a tree stump with legs, takes insane punishment. Okada is the reigning world champ. ZSJ is quite likely the most talented submission style guy in pro wrestling, and is just getting better. And Suzuki is a sadistic animal who lives to inflict pain (perfect mentor for ZSJ) .. and those are his GOOD qualities. The big guys will beat the living hell out of each other toe to toe, and the skinny Brit will try to cripple the world champ. #GoodTimes

8) U.S. Title Match - Hangman Page (challenger) vs "Switchblade" Jay White (champion) -- White got the title as part of a sudden superpush after returning from excursion. Page is better than his midcarder status suggests, but a title change here would be ... stupefying. I think these two might actually work well together in the ring & produce a solid match ... but I'd be at risk of fainting if the outcome wasn't predictable

9) Young Bucks vs Golden Lovers -- Nick & Matt Jackson against the best in the world Kenny Omega & his recently reunited long-lost tag partner Kota Ibushi. Here's where all the storyline stuff comes in. And I'd have to type til the show started to even try to explain all the drama that's tied up in this. Basically, the Bucks were Omega's closest & most loyal backup ... until Ibushi reunited with his partner from the early stages of their careers in Japan. And all that happens in the larger context of "control of Bullet Club". 30 minute time limit suggests a draw here, to set up the Bucks/Rhodes promoted show in Chicago later this year. There will be drama, there will be uncomfortably ambigous moments, there will be at least 1-2 guys selling injuries ... but given the decided flair for the dramatic that three of the four possess, I figure they'll come up with something crazy.

I mean, last time I think we saw Omega in the ring anywhere, he was wearing a giant bear costume ... and, no, I'm not going to try to explain that fully either. (though I will point out that Beary The Bear is a U.S. thing, not a Japan thing ... which makes it even weirder).

[murrayyyyy]

I'll say this about 8 and try to be as vague as I can. The champion is wrestling the challenger because he is being used as an indirect wedge to help breakup the challengers faction. The promotion interview between the two was the champion making fun of the faction and telling the challenger that he wasn't on his level because he was into making youtube videos about his manhood instead of trying to be a champion.

Also in 9b, there was another promo in roh in which the division of bc is offered up again (tv tappings the next night)

1, 5, 7 and 9 are probably the matches I'd enjoy the most just looking at the card.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Also in 9b, there was another promo in roh in which the division of bc is offered up again (tv tappings the next night)

1, 5, 7 and 9 are probably the matches I'd enjoy the most just looking at the card.

In terms of what I expect to enjoy most, I'd say 7 & 9 probably, 'cause 1 is hurt by how much I don't give a shit about one of the sides in the match.

In terms of match quality, I honestly think 8 might be the contender to be the biggest surprise, which will have me watching it just to see if that happens.

Oddly enough, the guys on the show that I enjoy most overall as individual talents/entertainers are stuck in matches that I didn't mention. Scurll working in the U.K. against a local, for example, is a pure delight to me as a viewer, sheer artistry.

[murrayyyyy]

In terms of what I expect to enjoy most, I'd say 7 & 9 probably, 'cause 1 is hurt by how much I don't give a shit about one of the sides in the match.

In terms of match quality, I honestly think 8 might be the contender to be the biggest surprise, which will have me watching it just to see if that happens.

Oddly enough, the guys on the show that I enjoy most overall as individual talents/entertainers are stuck in matches that I didn't mention. Scurll working in the U.K. against a local, for example, is a pure delight to me as a viewer, sheer artistry.

I can see it with 1 and I was impressed with Sky @ ROH16 since I hadn't seen him much. At least you know you will see a BME with the opening match which should get the crowd into it.

I have that same feeling about match 4 as Scurll is the only person I'd wanted to see as I think his partners work is way overrated right now. As much as I like Marty, I have zero interest in this match and would rather see a match involving Takahashi and Natio.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dear me, AXS coverage/production is horrible.

Hearing the voiceover guy mispronounce names in the opening video ought to be fucking embarrassing for AXS.

And their attempt to do ECW style camera work ain't much better.

[dubb93]

All I know is JR is right. These guys need to get out of the fucking ring. Other than that it was alright.

How does that get through to the live coverage. Yikes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

All I know is JR is right. These guys need to get out of the fucking ring. Other than that it was alright.

How does that get through to the live coverage. Yikes.

They have got to get rid of this AXS deal. Their coverage of this was somewhere between tragic & comic last year (JR was flat out embarrassing honestly), it's not a ton better overall this year.

Compared to the usual NJPW English commentary, it's a major downgrade every time AXS gets involved.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Props to Liger, that's pretty much the best performance I've seen from him in going on two years.

I shat upon the likelihood of that in my pre-show comments, Liger showed me up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

@jonsthreecents

I'd be fine if one of those V-triggers decapitated a Jackson brother ... and that's a tribute to how well the Jacksons have played their roles here. #njSSE