Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Toddzilla]

The crowd in Lyon is absolutely apeshit crazy, one of the hottest crowds I've ever seen. Puerto Rico level.

[Toddzilla]

Also, the French, unlike the US and Canada, are used to very big time soccer, so their chant game is top notch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Crowd is just insane.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meat & potatoes match in the main, crowd elevates it into a a solid 3.5 or 3.75 with no problem.

[dubb93]

The crowd was like if Hogan-Rock at WrestleMania lasted 3 hours. Too bad it was such a predictable and mediocre show outside of the opener.

Weren’t people predicting the Wyatt 6 for this show?

[RainMaker]

They should do more of these destination PPVs. The crowds are always amazing.

[dubb93]

They should do more of these destination PPVs. The crowds are always amazing.

Between this one, the two Saudi shows, Germany and Scotland later this year and Elimination Chamber being in Australia earlier in the year they are around half the PLEs being international this year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NGL, if you like the Japanese style of slobberknocker match, Shingo vs Kidd for the NEVER Openweight wasn't bad. Not bad at all.

[Toddzilla]

for those that wondered...

When there is a 2-count, we go "Simplement Deux" (Only Two!), comes from a catchphrase from the French commentators.
When a heel character did something 'bad', we went "T'es pas gentil !" (You're a meanie) or "C'est pas gentil !" (This is not kind.)
During the main-event, when AJ landed on Rhodes' knee, the crowd went "Ça doit faire mal" (That's gotta hurt!)
And the chant for AJ is "Il est vraiment phénoménal" (He truly is, he truly is, he truly is phenomenal).
Comes from a stupid "camping chant" that you can find on Youtube just by searching the lyrics.

[RainMaker]

NGL, if you like the Japanese style of slobberknocker match, Shingo vs Kidd for the NEVER Openweight wasn't bad. Not bad at all.

You weren't kidding. The spit was a great touch. And good lord I can't remember a match where chops were that vicious in a long time.

Nemeth and Finlay was pretty good too.

[Mota]

Is there such thing as too many Samoans? And Jacob Fatu hasn't even made his debut yet.

[RainMaker]

I did not expect to see Guerillas of Destiny in WWE.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is there such thing as too many Samoans? And Jacob Fatu hasn't even made his debut yet.

And 6'7" Hikuleo has a NJPW contract that expires in July.

[SirFozzie]

"Yo Dawgs, I heard you like Bloodline, so I got Bloodline in your Bloodline so you can watch the Bloodline vs the Bloodline"

(the only question is which one is Bloodline Black and White, and which one is Bloodline Wolfpac)

[JonInMiddleGA]

"Yo Dawgs, I heard you like Bloodline, so I got Bloodline in your Bloodline so you can watch the Bloodline vs the Bloodline"

(the only question is which one is Bloodline Black and White, and which one is Bloodline Wolfpac)

Yeah, seems pretty much destined to be where this goes

[RainMaker]

Botched the ref pull.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="es" dir="ltr">Tanga Loa debuta con Botch en WWE. Jodido eh.<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/JC3cyTmKTz">pic.twitter.com/JC3cyTmKTz</a></p>&mdash; Falbak (@Falbak_) <a href="https://twitter.com/Falbak_/status/1786910488598593678?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 5, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[GrantDawg]

I just saw a clip from the big fight in Westlemania 40. I didn't know a Rhodes kid was wrestling at the top of the game. "The American Nightmare." I got a kick out of that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just saw a clip from the big fight in Westlemania 40. I didn't know a Rhodes kid was wrestling at the top of the game. "The American Nightmare." I got a kick out of that.

Interesting how it came about, 'cause I don't think I knew whose idea it actually was until looking into it



In an interview with Bleacher Report on ‘Ask Me Anything’ segment was asked about why he is called ‘The American Nightmare’? To which Cody said that being the son of Dusty it naturally suited him.

However he said that the idea came when he was wrestling for the New Japan Pro Wrestling (NJPW), Tiger Hattori and Gedo proposed to him an idea to adopt “The American Nightmare” moniker as it will be easier for the fans to follow because it looks similar to his father’s. He then got the ownership for it, as it would be easy to take wherever he goes.

“Dusty was rags to riches and I was riches to riches, bratty little kid so the American Nightmare fits me well. I spent my WWE career trying to do everything different from Dusty but then at a certain point you’re allowed a little grace. When I left in 2016 and went to New Japan it was Tiger Hattori and Gedo who liked the idea because it was easy for the fans to follow because it was like ‘The American Dream’.”

[dubb93]

Kinda feel bad for Minnesota as they seemed to allocate alot of resources to getting Wrestlemania to come to town next year and were the absolute front runner. Seems new ownership stepped in and decided it is going to be in Vegas according to Minnesota officials. I really hope this isn't a permanent move to hosting WM in Vegas each year but considering it's the home of basically everything to do with new ownership I guess it isn't out of the question.

[SirFozzie]

On the scale of Wrestler Yikes taunts, this is the equivalent of Snuka off the top of the cage: Sheamus compares Gunther to well.. another Austrian.

https://twitter.com/EzhnoHowahkah/status/1787231653074485685

[dubb93]

Big yikes. I always had M. Bison vibes myself.

[molson]

Kinda feel bad for Minnesota as they seemed to allocate alot of resources to getting Wrestlemania to come to town next year and were the absolute front runner. Seems new ownership stepped in and decided it is going to be in Vegas according to Minnesota officials. I really hope this isn't a permanent move to hosting WM in Vegas each year but considering it's the home of basically everything to do with new ownership I guess it isn't out of the question.

Bummer for them for sure but I think I'm going to try to make it to my first Mania.

It's amazing what Vegas can handle event-wise. I was there last year while Taylor Swift was at the stadium and the NCAA Tournament was at T-Mobile. Hotels were not noticeably more expensive.

[RainMaker]

Without getting into too much detail, our company shares a factory with the folks who make the WWE metal products. And they shipped an enormous box of leftover stuff to us that included belts. No one really wanted them and we can't sell them for legal reasons. They're technically "flawed" which is why they weren't sent to the store, but the flaws are like a tiny bit of black paint missing from an area or a small crease that likely would have formed the minute you played with it anyway. But I figure I'd show what I nabbed.


Never held or been near a belt before. I'm pretty shocked at how heavy these things are and it's impressive that wrestlers just carry them around like it's nothing.


These are apparently close to the real thing. The main difference is the real ones have a leather strap while these use a fake leather (a pretty big difference in cost). The real ones also use cubic zirconium and these are just glass crystals (I don't know if you could even tell the difference). The plates are the same though and boy are they heavy.


https://i.imgur.com/q38gwkt.jpeg


https://i.imgur.com/JGap5Vl.jpeg

[RainMaker]

There was also an NXT UK Champion one that I didn't photograph because I left it in my car. But it's gorgeous and I don't remember ever seeing it on TV before.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There was also an NXT UK Champion one that I didn't photograph because I left it in my car. But it's gorgeous and I don't remember ever seeing it on TV before.

This tweet should have the video clip where that belt was introduced.


https://twitter.com/WWE/status/1220438424450224128

[RainMaker]

That's the one. It's a gorgeous design.


One thing with the pics I posted of the older belts is they are dual plated. It doesn't show up well because the lighting is crap but the silver parts are like a mirror finish. I guess they used it for a short period of time before going all gold. Can understand how having a mirror finish would not be good for TV.

[Mota]

RainMaker, please don't wear these over your shoulder to wrestling shows.

They do look amazing though!

[SirFozzie]

I am very, very, VERY jealous of you, RainMaker :)

[RainMaker]

No chance of wearing them. My niece and nephew are into wrestling so they'll likely get them. My niece has become a huge Cody fan. Was going to grab her some Cody side plates for it but those things are $100.

Might keep the old ones though. The winged eagle is my favorite.

[dubb93]

So WWE and UFC were just sold again to Silver Lake? I guess I'm confused by the wording as the sale to Endeavor was such a big deal and this is basically just a footnote at the end of an earning report.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So WWE and UFC were just sold again to Silver Lake? I guess I'm confused by the wording as the sale to Endeavor was such a big deal and this is basically just a footnote at the end of an earning report.

Best I can tell this takes Endeavor private, but not TKO Group Holdings (which owns the combined WWE/UFC). This is the other Endeavor assets, Endeavor holdings comprise talent agency WME; IMG’s sports operations and advisory, event management, media production and distribution, and brand licensing business; live event experiences and hospitality through On Location; cultural marketing agency 160over90; OpenBet, a sports data and technology provider; and its 51% controlling interest in TKO Group.

Endeavor Agrees to Silver Lake Buyout Deal Valuing It at $13B (https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/endeavor-goes-private-silver-lake-13-billion-1235957901/)

[Toddzilla]

Jesus Christ, Tommy Billington is a carbon copy of his uncle. The resemblance is wild.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Much like G1 Climax, there are matches in BoSJ that are just sneaky good/interesting but are destined to get lost amidst the big picture.

BoSJ Night 2, semi-main between Despy & Fujita feels like one of those matches to me. Really good work by both, subtle storytelling going on, and Despy getting a Korukaken crowd to cheer for his opponent is top notch work by a real pro. Unlikely to be a difference maker for the tournament outcome, just damned quality profressional wrestling.

[miami_fan]

Minneapolis to host 2026 SummerSlam | WWE (https://www.wwe.com/shows/summerslam/article/summerslam-2026-minneapolis-minnesota)

I get two nights of Wrestlemania. I don't necessarily agree with it but I get it. Who asked for two nights of SummerSlam?

[molson]

I wonder if this has something to do with Minneapolis putting together a huge pitch for Mania, believing they had it, and having it snatched away for Vegas.

It's some kind of unique deal, they announced the 2026 location even before the 2025 one.

[SirFozzie]

Ok, two things about Anarchy in the Arena.

One: on Dynamite, one of the folks on another wrestling board I hang out at said the equivalent of "Why is Darby Allin bringing out a flamethrower.. we all know he's not going to set some motherfucker on fire"

Apparently Coach Tony (who used to actually post on that board, and posted a big donation for the funeral of the site's founder last year) may still read the board, because you guessed, it, some motherfucker (Jack Perry) was set on fire.

And secondly, after Brawl In, did anyone think that in the year of our lord 2024, that Jack Perry would be a heat magnet (in all senses of the word?)

[dubb93]

And secondly, after Brawl In, did anyone think that in the year of our lord 2024, that Jack Perry would be a heat magnet (in all senses of the word?)

How can you be a heat magnet when your heel run has consisted of all time record low rated programs and attendance? I mean I get it. They turned absolutely nothing into something (even if no one wants to tune in to watch it.)

[Mota]

It takes time to go from building a star inside the building to your existing fans, and the word spreading enough to grow a fanbase.
Very few people can do that. I could go outside and start singing Seth Rollins' song, and I can pretty much guarantee that no one would know what I was singing. WWE grew their numbers the last several months because of The Rock.
The problem with AEW right now is that it's not cool. So no matter what they do, the same people will constantly be trashing them. They need to give the fans more reasons to tune in to watch the wrestling. And wrestling alone is not a reason.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The problem with AEW right now is that it's not cool.

The problem with AEW is the lack of adult leadership, coherent booking, proper use of both TV-caliber talent AND not-ready-for-primetime "talent", and that's just the top of the list.

Get those items in order, and THEN worry about "being cool".

That ass backwards approach is a big part of how they ended up with the current clusterfuckery.

[dubb93]

I honestly believe if their PPV’s were more accessible that more eyes would watch the TV shows on a weekly basis. Hopefully they get with the times on this next rights deal.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Adam Copeland confirms that he broke his leg during the PPV

[RainMaker]

I honestly believe if their PPV’s were more accessible that more eyes would watch the TV shows on a weekly basis. Hopefully they get with the times on this next rights deal.

Their PPVs are genuinely good because they usually pit good wrestlers against each other and give them time. I didn't have interest in the recent one because I'm just not that into the hardcore match stuff. But their other PPVs have been great.

Their issue to me is the TV shows suck. They have a bloated roster so no one really gets over or consistent time. They'll showcase a wrestler for a few weeks and then you won't hear from them again for months. Everyone has a stable or belt. And for a show that was supposed to have a more sport like presentation, it's just too goofy with inside indy jokes I don't get. I still don't understand who the fuck Danhausen is or what the point of his character.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I still don't understand who the fuck Danhausen is or what the point of his character.

He's the quirky indy character that's at least more entertaining than watching Pockets Cassidy. That stupidity got old after about two viewings.

[dubb93]

Their PPVs are genuinely good because they usually pit good wrestlers against each other and give them time. I didn't have interest in the recent one because I'm just not that into the hardcore match stuff. But their other PPVs have been great.

Their issue to me is the TV shows suck. They have a bloated roster so no one really gets over or consistent time. They'll showcase a wrestler for a few weeks and then you won't hear from them again for months. Everyone has a stable or belt. And for a show that was supposed to have a more sport like presentation, it's just too goofy with inside indy jokes I don't get. I still don't understand who the fuck Danhausen is or what the point of his character.

I said nothing of the quality of the pay per views. But when one company is selling them for $1.99 and another $50 it’s going to influence what consumers decide to follow. I suspect there are more than a few people who WOULD watch but aren’t paying that price for a wrestling show in 2024. And if you don’t get to see the payoff why watch the build?

Peacock is 1.99 on Black Friday every year for 12 months. First responders(including volunteers), military, and teachers can score it for that price outside of Black Friday.

The cost to follow AEW is considerably higher than WWE right now. It’s something that makes the Netflix move interesting to me a bit. I wonder how many people unwilling to pay the price for Netflix swap to AEW(assuming something is done with the PPV rights.)

[RainMaker]

He's the quirky indy character that's at least more entertaining than watching Pockets Cassidy. That stupidity got old after about two viewings.

I think OC is entertaining but in the same way that Santino was entertaining. A decent comedy gimmick for the bottom of the card. Making him a champion for like a year and having him beat a bunch of top guys seems really bizarre.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I I suspect there are more than a few people who WOULD watch but aren’t paying that price for a wrestling show in 2024.

Yeah, Will is a LOT more lenient about that stuff than I am but even he looked over the card before the show and was like "nope, there's just not enough to justify $50 there". And it really wasn't all that close, despite him being bored.

It's a "how do you wanna approach it" thing at this point. Does the TV exist to sell the PPVs? If so, TV would have to be a LOT better. Do the PPVs exist to drive people to the TV? If so, PPV would have to be a LOT more reasonably priced.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think OC is entertaining but in the same way that Santino was entertaining. A decent comedy gimmick for the bottom of the card. Making him a champion for like a year and having him beat a bunch of top guys seems really bizarre.

The most notable thing he accomplished was ending my interest in ever seeing Shibata in the ring again.

Having that character do anything other than destroy Cassidy in about two minutes exceeds my ability to suspend disbelief for anything involving Shibata.

Even if (as publicly stated) that matchup was Shibata's idea, it ended his career for me. If it's what he wanted to do, fine by me ... I simply don't have any interest in ever seeing him again after it was done.

[Mota]

Now that Wrestlemania season is over, I think AEW is putting out a better product than WWE again. Solo Sikoa is not a highlight character, and he is getting exposed with all the airtime he is getting. You can really see how much of a boost they got from The Rock being a part of that storyline, and they definitely miss him. Cody needs some heels to go against, and there aren't any great heels that are built up to face him right now.

I agree about AEW having too many titles. Get rid of ROH immediately. The continental trophy should be a tournament and not a title. And the FTW title is not real, they should not be defending it. The more titles they have, the less they mean. And I think that about WWE with their two world titles. You can't be the champion of the world when you're not even the champion of your own company.

[dubb93]

I wouldn’t say that them missing The Rock is why the WWE product is awful right now so much as missing a piece of every story the company had going(CM Punk missing from the Drew story, Seth is gone from any RAW title storyline they have going, The Rock and Roman from the Bloodline, Rhea was the only watchable female and she’s gone, Judgement day countering Dom and Rhea being out with adding Carlito is another whiff) is really taking a toll. Watching all the TV they have going with basically zero hot storylines is painful.

They have tried to counter lack of story with just tossing good wrestlers together and giving them time but I’m not feeling it at all right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And the FTW title is not real, they should not be defending it.

Welllll, hold on now. It IS (sorta) "real", it's just ... unofficial.

I mean, Taz actually owns the rights to it and it dates back to 1998 (a title literally older than a few on the AEW roster).

[dubb93]

It really feels that this is how HHH is going to book though. Look at post SummerSlam last year. It was the same crap. Shinske Nakamura headlined a couple of PLEs during that time frame and Cody was tossed into a throwaway tag team with Jey Uso. He really seems to be a 4 PLE kind of guy with everything else being kinda throwaway.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Channel surfing during hockey playoff intermission led to us seeing not one but two surprise appearances on NXT tonight.

I'll avoid spoiling in case anybody here actually watches but the male debut in particular seems like a not half bad idea.

[dubb93]

Just realized after actually finishing RAW that USA didn't show Liv and Dom kissing. Quite the fuckup considering WWE's twitter account has changed the profile picture (I'm old no clue if I'm using the correct social media terms here) to the two of them kissing and Dom has commented on it on twitter as well.

[dubb93]

To further illustrate my point on pricing, Peacock Premium is $1.67 a month for a full year right now if you sign up. That will get you a full years worth of WWE PLEs including SummerSlam and next years WrestleMania for approximately $20.

[Mota]

In Canada unfortunately we don't have Peacock. You have the janky version of the WWE Network which is just a TV station on our cable packages.
I am looking forward to it moving to Netflix next year.

[dubb93]

Another thing that AEW doesn’t seem to get. I recorded Dynamite last night and the damn recording ended before the show did. Why would you book your show to go past where standard DVRs record? Mind boggling.

[Mota]

Just finished Double or Nothing. Mercedes Mone looked okay, definitely seemed a bit hesitant about her foot. Similar to Seth Rollins when he came back after his bad ACL injury a few years ago. I think she'll get more comfortable over time.
Sad that Adam Copeland broke his foot. That jump off the cage was very risky, he ended up undershooting a bit and landed more on his feet than through the table.
Anarchy match was pretty crazy. Not really my thing, but it was definitely carnage. The flamethrower spot was insane, obviously Jack Perry was covered in some sort of fire retardant liquid, but he was actually on fire. Can't say I've ever seen that before, and probably don't need to see it again.
I loved the spot where the Young Bucks go to superkick Darby, and they pumped up their new Reeboks first. Such a heel move.
Definitely the women's division is doing really well right now, Toni Storm is on fire. Mariah May is a superstar in the making. Willow is over with the fans. Statlander is going to be a good heel, she definitely needs a mouthpiece, so it could work for her.

[Toddzilla]

Another thing that AEW doesn’t seem to get. I recorded Dynamite last night and the damn recording ended before the show did. Why would you book your show to go past where standard DVRs record? Mind boggling.Like basically every televised sporting event ever? Hmm, good question.

[dubb93]

Like basically every televised sporting event ever? Hmm, good question.

Wrestling is a sporting event now? No. It’s a predetermined product. Live sports will also auto extend on most DVRs (mine included.) It’s a booked show that ends whenever Tony says it ends. If TNT and Tony want it to go long they need to correct the listing to include the overrun like WWE did when they had one. I don’t even have a way to extend recordings besides I guess manually recording what is on after Dynamite each week.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Minor random from BoSJ but ... glad to see Kushida look better than in recent months, AND I appreciate that he's not unwilling to put over some young talent. Definitely no ego issues there, so good on him.

[NobodyHere]

https://static.explosm.net/2024/05/31173649/wild.png

[JonInMiddleGA]

Idle musing prompted by Will's current trip (he saw NOAH last night, going to GLEAT show tonight, has NJPW Dominion coming up this weekend)

In Japan, Korakuen Hall is sort of "the mother Church" for pro wrestling.

Built in 1962, seats around 2,000, it's basically a sports venue, mostly used for various combat sports. Wrestling, kickboxing, boxing, etc. It's like playing The Apollo, or for rock/metal like playing The Whiskey or the other big Sunset Strip nightclubs of the era. It's not Madison Square Garden or Carnegie Hall, it's more the right of passage before you get there.

Anyhow, until this trip I don't think I realized just how busy the venue stays. On average, it looks like there's 3-5 puroresu shows a week there, with other combat sports other nights. And I started thinking about how very different that is versus the U.S.

I know, different geographies, different status & structure for pro wrestling, all that. But still ... there's not a city in the U.S. that I can think of where you could easily see 150 wrestling shows a year, and there never has been. At most, some places had weekly and additional irregular events, but I'd think that even Atlanta, Memphis, etc in the prime years topped out around 75-100 shows a year.

Tokyo, the epicenter of puroresu, with soooooo many companies using it as their primary base, it's just a really different situation that I almost struggle to get my head around when I try to actually think about it.

[Mota]

That's pretty cool, Jon. I'd love to go to Korakuen Hall, it is basically just a big gym, but it's pretty iconic. The entrance is pretty funny, the wrestlers have to walk unprotected right past the seating area, and it is pretty tight. Some of the NJPW setups where they'd have the English commentators right there and would talk to the wrestlers on the way in.

So I've made a slight change to my wrestling watching, I've dropped WWE after the post-WM blahs. And added Marigold. So I'm now watching NJPW, AEW, Stardom and Marigold. Watching the Stardom All Star Grand Queendom from April right now and it is just incredible, the 4 way tag team title match was insane. So many good matches, one after another.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's pretty cool, Jon. I'd love to go to Korakuen Hall, it is basically just a big gym, but it's pretty iconic. The entrance is pretty funny, the wrestlers have to walk unprotected right past the seating area, and it is pretty tight. Some of the NJPW setups where they'd have the English commentators right there and would talk to the wrestlers on the way in.


During the intermission of tnoight's DDT/Gleat joint show, he went out for a beeru.

Long lines, he got back just as the introductions began. He literally went to his seat between the ref heading to the ring and Chris Brookes being introduced. And he even commented to me via message that "people just acted like that was the most normal thing in the world" lol

[Mota]

During the intermission of tnoight's DDT/Gleat joint show, he went out for a beeru.

Long lines, he got back just as the introductions began. He literally went to his seat between the ref heading to the ring and Chris Brookes being introduced. And he even commented to me via message that "people just acted like that was the most normal thing in the world" lol

Awesome. That's exactly some of the weirdness of that venue. I'm sure he is having a great time!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Awesome. That's exactly some of the weirdness of that venue. I'm sure he is having a great time!

He had so much fun at the DG show Tue night that he went back for the Gleat/DDT on Wed. And still has Dominion in Osaka coming up this weekend.

Sidebar: both nights, the Giants game at the Dome next door let out at virtually the same exact moment. He said last night was the most utter & complete madness he'd ever been caught in (and he's been to multiple SEC games with 80k +). He literally just stepped back off the sidewalk and let about 20k go past to avoid being swept by it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oh, and a fun unplanned memory for posterity. He actually saw this pop up in his Twitter feed.

The pale green shirt & the backwards hat is someone you all "know" :)

x.com (https://x.com/dragongate_pro/status/1798288499151650968)

[RainMaker]

Idle musing prompted by Will's current trip (he saw NOAH last night, going to GLEAT show tonight, has NJPW Dominion coming up this weekend)

In Japan, Korakuen Hall is sort of "the mother Church" for pro wrestling.

Built in 1962, seats around 2,000, it's basically a sports venue, mostly used for various combat sports. Wrestling, kickboxing, boxing, etc. It's like playing The Apollo, or for rock/metal like playing The Whiskey or the other big Sunset Strip nightclubs of the era. It's not Madison Square Garden or Carnegie Hall, it's more the right of passage before you get there.

Anyhow, until this trip I don't think I realized just how busy the venue stays. On average, it looks like there's 3-5 puroresu shows a week there, with other combat sports other nights. And I started thinking about how very different that is versus the U.S.

I know, different geographies, different status & structure for pro wrestling, all that. But still ... there's not a city in the U.S. that I can think of where you could easily see 150 wrestling shows a year, and there never has been. At most, some places had weekly and additional irregular events, but I'd think that even Atlanta, Memphis, etc in the prime years topped out around 75-100 shows a year.

Tokyo, the epicenter of puroresu, with soooooo many companies using it as their primary base, it's just a really different situation that I almost struggle to get my head around when I try to actually think about it.

I am incredibly jealous. That sounds like an incredible experience. If you're willing to share any photos from his trip there, it would be amazing.

Like you said, there is like nothing like that in the United States. Maybe back in the regional days (didn't WCCW do their shows at a famous building?) or I guess the old ECW arena (name is alluding me) in Philly which used to also host local boxing matches.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am incredibly jealous. That sounds like an incredible experience. If you're willing to share any photos from his trip there, it would be amazing.

Like you said, there is like nothing like that in the United States. Maybe back in the regional days (didn't WCCW do their shows at a famous building?) or I guess the old ECW arena (name is alluding me) in Philly which used to also host local boxing matches.

World Class = The "World Famous" Sportatorium

And yeah, I thought about including Viking Hall / ECW Arena / now 2300 Arena

[dubb93]

Does anyone think any US city is even capable of supporting something like this? Would, say a 2000 seat venue in Chicago, Philly, New York, Vegas or LA be able to stay booked and draw crowds if they committed to combat sports and wrestling or would it be a big loser? I know my local area has atleast 10-15 wrestling companies(that I know of) running anywhere from weekly to monthly shows as well as a few MMA and boxing promotions and the occasional tough man I see advertised on Facebook. There are also the random traveling midget wrestling shows. Why do they all run in different venues instead of consolidating to a more specialized venue that caters to them specifically?

Also can throw in that your boy is taking one of my dream vacations. Hope he’s having the time of his life.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Does anyone think any US city is even capable of supporting something like this? Would, say a 2000 seat venue in Chicago, Philly, New York, Vegas or LA be able to stay booked and draw crowds if they committed to combat sports and wrestling or would it be a big loser? Why do they all run in different venues instead of consolidating to a more specialized venue that caters to them specifically?

I really don't think it'd work here. The money doesn't feel like it'd add up.

A lot of that is, I think, cultural. You know the stigma that's associated with pro wrestling here, that's far less in Japan. It seems a lot more okay for a young salaryman to get off work, catch a train and be at the venue by 6p on a Wednesday night than it would be here. And they're doing it weekly, sometimes more than once a week.

It's been interesting to hear his observations about the crowds at Korakeun. For example, the NOAH show was at least 60% female, in a crowd of what he figured was north of 300. DDT/Gleat last night was smaller, a little more male, but also younger, a fair number even younger than him (he's 26 now for context). Usually in groups of 2-8, most of the groups were male & female. He also noted that last night was a "very DDT crowd" he was one of the distinct minority reacting to the Gleat performers strongly, most there didn't seem to know who most of them even were. To the extent that he actually noticed CIMA and some of the other Gleat older hand watching him / his reactions from the balcony with some interest as the night went on.

Compare that to an U.S. indy crowd, where basically the people you'd see at an (old days) ROH show are the same faces at a PWG show or a puro/lucha show or a GCW show, etc etc. The company cultures are strong enough in Japan, with enough differentiation at even the lower levels that you can stay in your lane & still do okay. The interest is broader overall, so there's leeway to sort of specialize (for the fans).

There's a lot of cultural stuff wrapped up in all that I think. Here, we tend to scream about our individualism (or whatever) from 9-5, then fall into mostly safe niches after hours. There, it seems like the reverse is true, rigidity from 9-5 and then virtually anything goes after hours.

Also can throw in that your boy is taking one of my dream vacations. Hope he’s having the time of his life.

Thanks. He's enjoying himself a lot I believe, though so far he's still feeling the effects of the long travel day a bit. He's been wanting to do this for a very long time now, I can't even tell you how many years of YouTube videos -- travelogue stuff like Abroad In Japan, countless food videos starting with Strictly Dumpling and expanding into many many others, on & on -- have been watched.

Then NJPW of course, which had followed naturally from his interests in the visiting workers that made such an impact in ROH, and over the past several years he's done a good job of working his way back through puroresu history (there are several really good YTers in that niche). He was 7 to 10 years old when Marafuji & Morishima and the rest were coming over and having classics with guys like Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson and others who were already his favorites (being a TNA/ROH fan far more than a WWF fan).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Little detail from Will's arrival at Osaka-Jo Hall for Dominion

"They could stand to direct us americans better. All NJPW signs in Japanese"

Me: what part of fuck you don't you understand?

That's a very real thing honestly, and it's almost kind of curious. Top level puroresu is still less inviting to non-Japanese fans than pretty much any aspect of the country he's seen. Extra hurdles to jump through for tickets for example, less English integration than DDT/Gleat show, far less welcoming than the Giants game. Combine that with a venue layout (outside) that's poorly conceived and poorly organized and , well, it's a damned good thing he got there 3 hours before the show. It'll take more than an hour for him to pick up his actual ticket (only allowed to do in person for foreigners, who must show multiple forms of ID including their required NJPW Fan Club badge)

It's not like he/we weren't aware of that beforehand, but it's kind of interesting to see it in real time versus what has been a trip with not much of that sort of thing evident in any other aspect. for example, he's actually encountered the (in)famous "English menu surcharge" only one time in his first week there

I'm just not sure being intentionally more difficult than other entertainment options is a lane that's the best choice for them to make, one of any number of questionable marketing decisions that NJPW in particular has made in recent years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dunno if this will work but since photo(s) was requested earlier, I'll say that he doesn't lack for a good seat. Literally behind the Japanese announce position

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10225881223726199&set=a.1031139067686

I can't get it to imbed so if you want to see then click the link I guess :/


edit to add: and to my delight, I finally managed to get a superwide long shot so I could find him (and I do mean long).
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10225881768019806&set=a.1031139067686

[JonInMiddleGA]

NJPW announces changes to the traditional format for the upcoming G1 Climax

Back to 20 entrants in two blocks ... first 18 participants will be announced next week ... last two slots will be determined by a sort of play-in tournament taking place during the upcoming Soul tour.

THEN, once G1 kicks off, the top THREE finishers in each block will advance ... Top scorers in A & B Block will get byes to the semifinals, 2/3 will meet for the right to advance to that final four.

[RainMaker]

I don't know what the ideal number of participants is but I'm glad they are cutting the field. It just got to be way too much.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't know what the ideal number of participants is but I'm glad they are cutting the field. It just got to be way too much.

16-20 feels right to me honestly.

And going back to two blocks is probably an even better change. The 4 block shit was simply impossible to follow, and if you have no clue how things stack up -- even if you're watching every single match -- then it really loses any sense of drama, importance, or anything other than an incoherent slog.

[Mota]

Not a fan of 3 people advancing. It's like expanding the field in college football, or adding more wild card teams to baseball. It devalues the regular season. You could go 5-4 , finish in 3rd and go on to win the tournament, depending on how things go.

Even with 2 people advancing, you'd be looking at a minimum of 6-3 barring any shenanigans to advance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not a fan of 3 people advancing. It's like expanding the field in college football, or adding more wild card teams to baseball. It devalues the regular season. You could go 5-4 , finish in 3rd and go on to win the tournament, depending on how things go.

Even with 2 people advancing, you'd be looking at a minimum of 6-3 barring any shenanigans to advance.

But if you look at it as "quarterfinals", it's only 6 people instead of the 8 people that were produced by the 4-block setup.

I don't love the attempt to create faux excitement/opportunity, but I don't hate it either.

edit to add: this same format was apparently used with a 16 man /2 block field back in 2004

[RainMaker]

I don't mind more advancing because otherwise a lot of the matches just have no meaning. With 6 advancing, you can hopefully book meaningful matches top to bottom. Mix in some "spoilers" at the bottom of the table.

I'm just glad they are reducing the whole thing. It was way too hard to keep up with and there were too many wrestlers I just didn't care to even see. And I'm not opposed to "play-in" style matches to make the G1. Make it like the World Cup where some have to qualify.

[Mota]

I'm basically a year behind in my NJPW viewing, and I'm really digging the 2023 Best of the Super Jrs. I just finished up everybody's 6th match out of 9.
The matches have to be relatively short since they have to do 10 matches in about 2.5 hours, but even the first matches have the potential to surprise.

I enjoy the NJPW tournament format.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm basically a year behind in my NJPW viewing, and I'm really digging the 2023 Best of the Super Jrs. I just finished up everybody's 6th match out of 9.
The matches have to be relatively short since they have to do 10 matches in about 2.5 hours, but even the first matches have the potential to surprise.

I enjoy the NJPW tournament format.

Damn, I really didn't care for parts of last years BoSJ. YMMV of course, and that's fine.

fwiw, 2024 just completed is considerably better. Most of the returning participants were better than last year across the board and the new entrants were definitely more positive than negative.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone think an American promotion could pull off the NJPW style tournament format? WWE has been putting more emphasis on tournaments, but I think that's about as far as they'll go. TNA used to have their points based tournament back in the day.

AEW would be perfect for it since they have so much TV time each week (could make one of their shows strictly for the tournaments), good wrestlers, and barely any storylines. But TK is gonna TK.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Does anyone think an American promotion could pull off the NJPW style tournament format? WWE has been putting more emphasis on tournaments, but I think that's about as far as they'll go. TNA used to have their points based tournament back in the day.

AEW would be perfect for it since they have so much TV time each week (could make one of their shows strictly for the tournaments), good wrestlers, and barely any storylines. But TK is gonna TK.

That's been a discussion over the years down here in the batcave and our general conclusion is probably not.

The problem would be the complaints about 50-50 booking, and by nature that's where most entrants end up. Less of an issue for AEW since that's how so many get booked anyway but I don't think

Also, harder to give it the necessary gravitas with the schedule that'd be required here vs the grueling demand of the structure there. The exhaustions, the injuries, the sheer grind of the G1 Climax is part of the story, a character unto itself almost. 6 days off between matches in the U.S. for television, that'd be lost and I believe it would absolutely hurt things.

[Mota]

They did have the Continental Classic in AEW last year, which is like a very lite version of the G1. It was 2 groups of 6, I believe.
You really need to have the fans trained to believe that wins and losses matter. This is actually a good way to reinforce it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

“NOAH and WWE will make a major announcement at the BUNTAI event in Yokohama on June 16th!

“A message from a certain wrestler is also being released!”

403 Forbidden (https://wrestletalk.com/news/wwe-pro-wrestling-noah-major-announcement/)

[dubb93]

They are heading in the wrong direction with this forbidden door stuff. It hasn’t worked for AEW and it’s not going to work for WWE. Joe down the street doesn’t care about TNA or NOAH and honestly doesn’t have the time to invest to figure it out on top of all the WWE TV time that already exists. Catering to the 1% is what AEW does. WWE really needs to avoid that.

[RainMaker]

I think it's just sharing some talent they aren't really using. My guess is they send Nakamura who they really aren't using much for an event or two. I think they are sending Iyo Shirai to a Marigold event as well.

The TNA partnership seemed more about finding some warm bodies since NXT lost a bunch of people to the main roster. Their champs didn't seem to have any real credible threats to face.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They are heading in the wrong direction with this forbidden door stuff. It hasn’t worked for AEW and it’s not going to work for WWE. Joe down the street doesn’t care about TNA or NOAH and honestly doesn’t have the time to invest to figure it out on top of all the WWE TV time that already exists. Catering to the 1% is what AEW does. WWE really needs to avoid that.

Then again, Joe Hendry is more entertaining than at least 95% of their roster.

[Toddzilla]

Catering to the 1% is what AEW does. WWE really needs to avoid that.the 1% of what, exactly?

[dubb93]

the 1% of what, exactly?

The 1% of pro wrestling fans that consumes everything wrestling. The 1% that hangs out on internet message boards and talks about wrestling. Us pretty much.

[Mota]

“NOAH and WWE will make a major announcement at the BUNTAI event in Yokohama on June 16th!

“A message from a certain wrestler is also being released!”

403 Forbidden (https://wrestletalk.com/news/wwe-pro-wrestling-noah-major-announcement/)

I think it works much better for AEW, to be honest. WWE fans are very insular, and much more casual.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think it works much better for AEW, to be honest. WWE fans are very insular, and much more casual.

I didn't say I thought this specifically was a great idea, but figured I'd throw it out here anyway.

Honestly, I don't like it much for the NOAH product, which was good enough in person last week that Will had already mentioned that he should probably expand his various subscriptions & try to watch more from Japan besides NJPW.

[dubb93]

I’m getting frustrated missing Dynamite’s main event every week because DirectvStream won’t let me extend the damn recording.

[dubb93]

The Indie promotion that we go to all their shows ran an angle tonight that culminated in a Dog Collar match being set for July 20. I wonder how that is going to turn out?

[dubb93]

Have there been any recentish dog collar matches? My son asked what they are after the show and I sent him a video of Piper-Valentine. Idk, I’m old I guess.

[SirFozzie]

This was one from DEAN~! on wrestlemania weekend
VIDEO - Mad Dog Connelly v DEMUS highlights from DEAN~!!! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhT4yXtoWxg)

Also: CM Punk vs MJF

[Carman Bulldog]

Can't forget FTR vs. The Briscoes.

Somewhat oddly, Jay Briscoe's penultimate match was a dog collar match while Brodie Lee's last match was also a dog collar match (vs. Cody).

[RainMaker]

I don't know about that last segment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't know about that last segment.

That might not be THE dumbest thing I've seen in probably 2+ decades, but it's waaaay up the list.

I'd argue that the last James Mitchell into The Underworld (or whatever the hell it supposed to be) was actually even dumber ... but that was also on a non-serious C-grade program too.

That shitshow made Broken Matt look like Shakespeare, and based on the arena reaction honestly I'm wondering if the IQ of the paying fanbase might not be at a low we haven't seen in decades.

[Flasch186]

When I saw they were playing murder I said out loud

“They fucking blew it.”

And I was the only one in the room. I hope I’m wrong. But how do you reverse people being murdered in the play?

Smh

[dubb93]

I'm wondering if the IQ of the paying fanbase might not be at a low we haven't seen in decades.

The reaction was for Bray. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

[Mota]

It reminds me of a time I was running an e-fed over 25 years ago. I was super busy and didn't have time to read every interview before posting them in my recap show. I was going to read them later. Then someone sent me a note, "Hey, you realize that Stygian (who had a kind of demonic gimmick) just blew up a church full of people in his latest segment, right?". Oops. Had to do a comment from the announcers in the next show saying "thankfully the church was empty", hahaha. I always read everything before posting after that.

[RainMaker]

I'm not a big fan of the spooky supernatural gimmicks. It's fine in smaller feds like Lucha Underground or TNA as it gives them something different from the others.

There's probably a way to pull off a faction like that. But the over-the-top production values and then completely no-selling it after it happened just comes across weird to me.

[dubb93]

I'm not a big fan of the spooky supernatural gimmicks. It's fine in smaller feds like Lucha Underground or TNA as it gives them something different from the others.

I’m not saying I liked this angle as I haven’t watched it yet but I just want to point out that WWE is and always has been the wrestling place for the supernatural. One of the most iconic WWE wrestlers of all time is The Undertaker and Bray Wyatt is a multi-time champion that has taken the world title into WrestleMania and both had supernatural gimmicks.

It isn’t even just those two. Off the top of my head I can think of The Boogeyman, Kane, The Ministry of Darkness, and The Brood as other successful supernatural gimmicks and I’m sure there are many other examples of this stuff littered throughout WWE history (Papa Shango interfering in the main event of Wrestlemania for example.)

[RainMaker]

Agree, although a lot of those gimmicks are old. And later on characters like Kane were almost tongue-in-cheek with how serious you were supposed to take them.

I still wasn't a fan of the Fiend gimmick. Cool concept, Bray was a creative guy, but it's kind of tough to go anywhere with it. It ultimately ended up with him burying Rollins and then having that weird match with Orton that most people made fun of.

I'm sure they'll sell a ton of merch and fans will tune in for the next couple months to see what kind of stuff they do. But I feel like it's tough to create real storylines with the supernatural stuff in today's business. Feels like Bray should have been working in Hollywood.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Agree, although a lot of those gimmicks are old. And later on characters like Kane were almost tongue-in-cheek with how serious you were supposed to take them.

I still wasn't a fan of the Fiend gimmick. Cool concept, Bray was a creative guy, but it's kind of tough to go anywhere with it. It ultimately ended up with him burying Rollins and then having that weird match with Orton that most people made fun of.

I'm sure they'll sell a ton of merch and fans will tune in for the next couple months to see what kind of stuff they do. But I feel like it's tough to create real storylines with the supernatural stuff in today's business. Feels like Bray should have been working in Hollywood.

Pretty much this.

As I noted at some point last night, being sorry that Windham Rotunda died and absolutely hating 90% or more of his "creative input" aren't mutually exclusive positions.

[dubb93]

Orton vs. Bray was absolutely one of the worst wrestling matches of all time. One thing I never understood about Bray was wrestling with the different colored arena lights. The red lights or even the “Mountain Dew pitch black match.” I don’t even think Gunther vs Tomohiro Ishii would be watchable under that crap.

[Toddzilla]

As I noted at some point last night, being sorry that Windham Rotunda died and absolutely hating 90% or more of his "creative input" aren't mutually exclusive positions.
:+1:

[SirFozzie]

If any wrestler had this kinda heat these days, they'd flee the arena and never return

x.com (https://x.com/MattD2A/status/1803158126876586285)

(The Rougeau Brothers in Mexico in 1990)

Remember how the fans would be chucking stuff into the ring at the end of Nitro after yet another NWO run in? These fans are so amped, they're doing it during a REST HOLD.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ahhhh Mexico lol

What was the Jericho comment, about getting doused with a full cup of cold piss?
That you REALLY had to hate someone bad to hold a cup full of piss long enough for the temp to drop just in order to hit 'em with it

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, I think the coolest single moment of Will's trip to Japan has now occurred.

He had some time to kill before heading off to drink his way around/through Shinjuku, a perfect opportunity to go a couple train stops away and visit Minoru Suzuki's merch store (basically a small shop in the basement of a mini-mall).

Lo & behold, the KING himself was in. Gracious for a photo and a quick bit of conversation, the legend-turned-proprietor even bagged up the shirts himself.

Not sure I've heard my child as excited after something since he was about 7 or 8 and did photos with Samoa Joe and a fair chunk of the TNA roster.

[Mota]

If I met Minoru, I think I'd have to ask him for a chop. That is a pretty cool experience!

[RainMaker]

The Joe Hendry gimmick is really goofy and completely over with me. Not sure if it'll work on a big stage but NXT seems perfect for it. Song is catchy too.

[RainMaker]

Okay, I think the coolest single moment of Will's trip to Japan has now occurred.

He had some time to kill before heading off to drink his way around/through Shinjuku, a perfect opportunity to go a couple train stops away and visit Minoru Suzuki's merch store (basically a small shop in the basement of a mini-mall).

Lo & behold, the KING himself was in. Gracious for a photo and a quick bit of conversation, the legend-turned-proprietor even bagged up the shirts himself.

Not sure I've heard my child as excited after something since he was about 7 or 8 and did photos with Samoa Joe and a fair chunk of the TNA roster.

This is so incredibly cool. Trying to imagine Minoru bagging up some shirts for a customer has me laughing.

In Japan, is wrestling just considered more mainstream? It seems like it doesn't have that negative association you find in the states.

[JonInMiddleGA]

In Japan, is wrestling just considered more mainstream? It seems like it doesn't have that negative association you find in the states.

Yes, absolutely ... but also, kinda sorta, not entirely either.

It gets fairly serious sports page treatment for example. The fans are a pretty good cross section, though he's coming away feeling like it's considerably more promotion-by-promotion than we previously understood. So it's segmented, but in a way different from the promotional loyalties we're accustomed to here.

At the same time, similar to anime I suppose, it's more mainstream but by acknowledging your fandom there is a certain degree of ... marginalization that you subject yourself to. There's just a bit more people willing to accept that marginalization, if that makes sense.

[Toddzilla]

I was in attendance last night with the boy at AEW Dynamite here in Fairfax. Pretty great show, it does seem small-time compared to WWE, go figure. I was surprised how small the ring looked as compared to on TV. The wrestlers looked bigger, however. All the hometown folks (Sanjay Dutt, Nyla Rose, Lio Rush, Serena Deeb) all got huge hometown pops which was very cool. No pyro, thank goodness.

If you're interested, I'm on the hard-cam all night long - left side in a blue polo that stands out amongst all the black tshirts. The boy is on my right with Eddie's "Deez Nuts" shirt.

[dubb93]

If this news about Lucas Oil is correct then I need to start saving now. Royal Rumble, WrestleMania, AND SummerSlam within the next handful of years?

[RainMaker]

I was in attendance last night with the boy at AEW Dynamite here in Fairfax. Pretty great show, it does seem small-time compared to WWE, go figure. I was surprised how small the ring looked as compared to on TV. The wrestlers looked bigger, however. All the hometown folks (Sanjay Dutt, Nyla Rose, Lio Rush, Serena Deeb) all got huge hometown pops which was very cool. No pyro, thank goodness.

If you're interested, I'm on the hard-cam all night long - left side in a blue polo that stands out amongst all the black tshirts. The boy is on my right with Eddie's "Deez Nuts" shirt.

I feel like AEW would come across better if they did medium sized arenas. Venues of like 5k where it can get real loud and has an intimate feel. Can still do big arenas for big shows.

When I do watch their weekly show, it just feels off because they're filling out maybe 5000 people in an 18000 seat arena.

[RainMaker]

Jacob Fatu to WWE. Looks to have slimmed down a bit but looked pretty menacing.

[miami_fan]

WrestleMania, SummerSlam and Royal Rumble headed to Indianapolis | WWE (https://www.wwe.com/article/wrestlemania-summerslam-royal-rumble-indianapolis)

[dubb93]

WrestleMania, SummerSlam and Royal Rumble headed to Indianapolis | WWE (https://www.wwe.com/article/wrestlemania-summerslam-royal-rumble-indianapolis)

I will never financially recover from this.

[RainMaker]

I don't know if it's the same but I remember Indy is a great spot for events because you can walk practically everywhere you need to from the hotel.

[dubb93]

I don't know if it's the same but I remember Indy is a great spot for events because you can walk practically everywhere you need to from the hotel.

Downtown Indy is very walkable. The usual venue, banker’s life, is great because it has an attached parking garage. Parking isn’t as good at Lucas Oil but you can generally get within 5-6 blocks for $20 or so.

[RainMaker]

Was very skeptical about the Wyatt gimmick but I thought the promo on Monday was incredibly well done. If they drop the supernatural stuff and it just becomes a grieving brother who is dealing out punishment for his anger about his brother being "forgotten", I could see it going somewhere. Especially since they did seem to pick other wrestlers who have been abandoned in a way by their stables in the past.

Either way, I thought the promo was well done and some of the best acting (not even sure that's the right word since those emotions felt real) I can remember from a professional wrestling product.

[RainMaker]

Good lord Jacob Fatu is good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Catching up on the G1 Climax show from yesterday, Uemura vs Takeshita was a right banger.

Match of young Yuya's career to date I'd say. And better than the much anticipated Takeshita-Tsuji match featured on night one.

The tournament so far has actually revealed a weakness, of sorts, in Takeshita's current state. He's so rarely worked people of similar size & skill that it doesn't come across quite as well as him working more "normal" sized people. When this is over, AEW should put him in the training ring with guys like Archer & Big Caz, just to round out that part of his game. That's picking nits, he's really damned good.

[RainMaker]

I've really liked what I've seen from Takeshita too. Just wish AEW would give him a win from time to time because he has so much potential to be great.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just thinking about the stablemate Jackson Brothers and ol' Jungle Jackoff and realized: if they were a Class AA secondary in Georgia HS football they'd be referred to as "undersized"

[Mota]

Who cares though? It's 2024. We're not in 1980's WWF anymore. I'd rather watch the Young Bucks fight any day over Omas, or any of those 7'0 guys that can barely move.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Who cares though? It's 2024. We're not in 1980's WWF anymore. I'd rather watch the Young Bucks fight any day over Omas, or any of those 7'0 guys that can barely move.

Sure ... but I'd never really considered just HOW small they were when you pile a bunch of 'em into a tag match together with normal sized humans.

[dubb93]

There is a difference between not being 6’8 and just not working out at all. The bucks and Jack look like regular dudes that just walked in after stocking shelves. And I’d say that attendance and ratings say that probably does matter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Catching up on some backlog of G1 Climax matches from NJPW and I gotta say, Zack Sabre Jr is pretty clearly THE best worker on the roster right now.
With Ospreay gone, there's simply not anybody better there today. We can talk "new generation" this and "new era" that, but seems to me that you have to give a run to the best you've got TODAY.

[GrantDawg]

I know nothing about current wrestling, and haven't watched it since the late 80's. But I just bought WWE 2k24 because I watched somebody playing it and it looked fun. I have no idea who anybody is nor any of the story-lines. It should be interesting.

[dubb93]

I know nothing about current wrestling, and haven't watched it since the late 80's. But I just bought WWE 2k24 because I watched somebody playing it and it looked fun. I have no idea who anybody is nor any of the story-lines. It should be interesting.

You can go to community creations and download all the guys you know. You can even download familiar arenas and shows and such. There really isn’t a reason you couldn’t customize the game to basically any era or promotion you wanted to play.

Back when I played the game I would always download WCW arenas and the full roster and do a brand split on universe mode of mid to late 90s WCW and WWF.

[GrantDawg]

I may have to figure out how to do that.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

How bad is Tonga Loa that they won't let him do a match anymore?

[SirFozzie]

TEW IX is out!

[JonInMiddleGA]

How bad is Tonga Loa that they won't let him do a match anymore?

He washed, and has been for quite a while. His last knee injury (June 2022) did him in, and he was always kind of the Stevie Ray to Tama's Booker T anyway.

[GrantDawg]

You can go to community creations and download all the guys you know. You can even download familiar arenas and shows and such. There really isn’t a reason you couldn’t customize the game to basically any era or promotion you wanted to play.

Back when I played the game I would always download WCW arenas and the full roster and do a brand split on universe mode of mid to late 90s WCW and WWF.


Just spent an hour downloading stuff and walking down memory lane. I hate the download area in game. There is no way to search by show or name of Superstar. I did get on one creator that did a good bit of 80's WCW stuff, so got lots of stuff that way.

[dubb93]

Just spent an hour downloading stuff and walking down memory lane. I hate the download area in game. There is no way to search by show or name of Superstar. I did get on one creator that did a good bit of 80's WCW stuff, so got lots of stuff that way.

There is but it’s confusing. I don’t have the game in front of me but I believe it’s under hashtag. You just free type what you want there. You can’t do spaces so for instance you would type in “razorramon”

[RainMaker]

Pretty sure Jacob Fatu broke his leg on that splash outside. Guessing Roman was supposed to come out and even the odds instead of just help Cody win over Solo. Brutal if true, he was fun to watch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pretty sure Jacob Fatu broke his leg on that splash outside. Guessing Roman was supposed to come out and even the odds instead of just help Cody win over Solo. Brutal if true, he was fun to watch.

But fans tweeting say he seemed to be fine when he joined Solo afterwards. :confused:

Either he's the greatest actor in recent wrestling history OR he got hurt/thought he was hurt.

[RainMaker]

But fans tweeting say he seemed to be fine when he joined Solo afterwards. :confused:

Either he's the greatest actor in recent wrestling history OR he got hurt/thought he was hurt.

Interesting. Hope you're right. It seemed weird he would do the splash and then just sort of be out of the match. And you would think Roman would come out to even the odds instead of just interfere. Although maybe they think so highly of Fatu that they're setting him up for Roman.

Here's a video of him heading to the back. Not sure what to make of that. I just thought the ending was a little odd.

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[GrantDawg]

There is but it’s confusing. I don’t have the game in front of me but I believe it’s under hashtag. You just free type what you want there. You can’t do spaces so for instance you would type in “razorramon”


I noticed the hashtags, but I still didn't see what I was looking for there. This game is so massive and confusing, and I'm trying to watch videos just to learn the different modes. That isn't helping. I can't find anybody that can just straight forward explain stuff. It seems like none of the creators can finish a thought while describing things, and so much of the terminology is alien to me, and no one says what any of it means. They just assume you know what they are talking about. It reminds me so much of NBA 2k creators that spend more time talking about tennis shoes and hair styles on the players instead of the actual gameplay you are trying to learn about.

[dubb93]

I noticed the hashtags, but I still didn't see what I was looking for there. This game is so massive and confusing, and I'm trying to watch videos just to learn the different modes. That isn't helping. I can't find anybody that can just straight forward explain stuff. It seems like none of the creators can finish a thought while describing things, and so much of the terminology is alien to me, and no one says what any of it means. They just assume you know what they are talking about. It reminds me so much of NBA 2k creators that spend more time talking about tennis shoes and hair styles on the players instead of the actual gameplay you are trying to learn about.

You go to hashtags and free type in what you want. You don’t use an existing hashtag. You type in what you are looking for. Hashtags is a stupid name for it. It should just say search.

[GrantDawg]

I don't want to take this thread over, but I'm addicted to this stupid game. Made a universe with 80-90's WCW, Mid-South Wrestling, and the WFW. Far from perfect, but it is still really cool to watch Dusty Rhodes wrestle Rick Flair, Ivan and Nikita Koloff fighting the Von Erichs, and Abdullah the Butcher and the Iron Sheik back at it. I spent way too long downloading stuff, and I can see myself doing hours more adjusting things again and again.

[dubb93]

I assume you were able to figure out how to search the way you wanted to? If you are still just searching how you were by scrolling through individual creators creations send me a PM and we can connect on discord and I can get you settled tomorrow.

[GrantDawg]

I assume you were able to figure out how to search the way you wanted to? If you are still just searching how you were by scrolling through individual creators creations send me a PM and we can connect on discord and I can get you settled tomorrow.


I did figure it out, but do you know what I need? A breakdown of terminology for dummies, like how the PLE system is set up? What the heck is Money In The Bank? What's a Cash-in? I'm talking the business side, I get the wrestling. It is funny how many of the same moves they still do, but many have different names now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I did figure it out, but do you know what I need? A breakdown of terminology for dummies, like how the PLE system is set up? What the heck is Money In The Bank? What's a Cash-in? I'm talking the business side, I get the wrestling. It is funny how many of the same moves they still do, but many have different names now.

MITB is an annual PLE, runs in early July usually I think

The event is named after the Money in the Bank ladder match, a multi-person ladder match in which participants compete to obtain a briefcase that contains a contract for a championship match, which can be "cashed in" at a time and place of their choosing within the next year.

Typically the holder of the briefcase will come sprinting to the ring at some point on another show, when a champion is thoroughly beaten down from a match that is ending/has ended, they hand the briefcase over to the ref, formally "cashing in the briefcase". A new match begins with the bell ringing and the MITB holder presumably picking the bones of a near dead champ to claim the title

edit to add: it was originally a monthly PPV that ran somewhere between one of the big four, but Wiki notes that it's now considered part of "the five tentpoles", elevated by a remark using that phrase made by Nick Khan back in 2021.

[GrantDawg]

MITB is an annual PLE, runs in early July usually I think

The event is named after the Money in the Bank ladder match, a multi-person ladder match in which participants compete to obtain a briefcase that contains a contract for a championship match, which can be "cashed in" at a time and place of their choosing within the next year.

Typically the holder of the briefcase will come sprinting to the ring at some point on another show, when a champion is thoroughly beaten down from a match that is ending/has ended, they hand the briefcase over to the ref, formally "cashing in the briefcase". A new match begins with the bell ringing and the MITB holder presumably picking the bones of a near dead champ to claim the title

edit to add: it was originally a monthly PPV that ran somewhere between one of the big four, but Wiki notes that it's now considered part of "the five tentpoles", elevated by a remark using that phrase made by Nick Khan back in 2021.


Thanks. Interesting. I can only imagine the shenanigans Ric Flair would have pulled with that back in the day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Still 2 (3?) days behind on G1, Takeshita vs Goto was a solid banger. And I'm starting to believe that the Goto pop is real for a bit.

But I've watched that wondering how in the fuck AEW can't find consistent airtime for a guy who has the skill set Takeshita has. Solid offense, willing to bump his ass off for people, a great look, easy to dislike (in character sense).

[miami_fan]

Kevin Sullivan passes away | WWE (https://www.wwe.com/article/kevin-sullivan-passes-away)

My first vivid wrestling memory was Kevin Sullivan as the Prince of Darkness leading the Army of Darkness throwing ink in Dusty Rhodes' sister face.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Fun stuff at MLW show last night. First pro wrestling show for me in a little bit, the chance to see a half dozen guys from NJPW (and CMLL's Mistico) was too much to pass up.

Having been to Center Stage for a few shows now, here's a fun little tip in case you go: arrive early enough to park in the deck beneath the venue.

See, that's where the wrestlers park, and you never know who you might run into (or in the case of Chris Sabin, get run into BY lol). So I wasn't entirely shocked to see four of them while leaving last night, including a quick minute with Matt Riddle and a few pretty cool minutes with a super nice & super gracious Bill Alfonso (of ECW fame).

[dubb93]

Reports making the rounds that AEW and WBD are going to announce AEW’s new rights deal today. It needs to be PPVs to Max for the cost of the subscription or I will continue to not watch it.

[SirFozzie]

For some reason, Facebook's short videos keep insisting on showing me ridiculously complicated lucha libre dives, like a luchador running down the entrance way, jumping to the top rope from the entranceway, bouncing to the next side of the ring's top rope then flipping on their oppoent.

Probably cause I watch them whenever I see them. It's really violent-ish acrobatics.


edit: or this one. Still can't figure out how they turn so smoothly on the step up the ropes to turn to jump into the rana.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/741921848025354

[dubb93]

Looks like they are going to sell PPV’s at a discounted rate to MAX subscribers. I’ll pass. Looks like I won’t be watching with any consistently for the duration of this new rights deal.

[albionmoonlight]

TIL that pro wrestling always hires short referees so that the wrestlers look bigger by comparison.

Neat.

[dubb93]

Going to my first MAJOR event in February for the Royal Rumble. I know I went to Fastlane when it was in Indy but that was a throwaway PLE. Will be sitting roughly where I did for Fastlane (five rows higher still in the 100 sections) and the cost is more than double per ticket.

[Front Office Midget]

Kyle Fletcher vs. Will Ospreay was fantastic, match of the year for me.

[Mota]

Fletcher is great! I like his new look, it's a bit more legitimate than the really bad haircut he had before. He has also proven that he can do it against other wrestlers as well, not just an Ospreay who has great matches with everybody.

I keep on trying WWE and dropping it. The Bloodline angle is now the NWO post-prime, where everybody is in a Bloodline faction. Solo Sikoa just sucks, he should never been elevated to this level. He's probably the worst of all the Bloodline performers. Jacob Fatu is amazing though, that guy is just a destroyer! He reminds me so much of Samu, who I grew up watching in International Wrestling when I was a kid.

I'm having the most fun watching Joshi right now, both Stardom and Marigold are putting out good product. I prefer Stardom, but Marigold has better English content, so it's easier to follow the storylines. These women can GO.

[Front Office Midget]

Fletcher is great! I like his new look, it's a bit more legitimate than the really bad haircut he had before. He has also proven that he can do it against other wrestlers as well, not just an Ospreay who has great matches with everybody.


Agreed. I also appreciate that he can cut a nice slow, long promo, and his vibe right now is pretty believable.

[Toddzilla]

That New Day segment was absolutely brutal, soul-crushing, and heart-breaking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

El Phantasmo returns to NJPW ring last night, says he's medically cleared to compete less than three months after an unspecified cancer diagnosis was revealed.

Fuck yeah. #HDBNGCLUB4LIFE

403 Forbidden (https://www.f4wonline.com/news/new-japan/el-phantasmo-makes-njpw-return-medically-cleared-after-cancer-diagnosis/)

[Mota]

Interesting take on the WWE vs AEW battle.

We can see that promos are drawing more viewers than wrestling matches. Everybody was talking about the CM Punk / Seth Rollins promo this week.

Is attendance and TV ratings the big judge of success? I guess for the company it is. Someone commented on Twitter that this makes Baby Shark the most talented musician on the planet, since they have the most streams of any artist.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting take on the WWE vs AEW battle.

We can see that promos are drawing more viewers than wrestling matches. Everybody was talking about the CM Punk / Seth Rollins promo this week.

Is attendance and TV ratings the big judge of success? I guess for the company it is. Someone commented on Twitter that this makes Baby Shark the most talented musician on the planet, since they have the most streams of any artist.

Since TV money is footing a lot/most of the bills, yeah, it's pretty important.

[dubb93]

Is there a source for Baby Shark having the most streams of any artist because Pinkfong (the artist) only has 5.5 million monthly plays on Spotify, which doesn’t even register among the most played artists. I know how a lot of wrestling fans can be sensational and ignore reality though when it comes to comparing AEW and WWE.

[dubb93]

The real number one is Taylor Swift if you want to try to make that one work somehow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The Baby Shark as standard bearer isn't streams, it's for YouTube video

It became the most-viewed YouTube video in November 2020, surpassing "Despacito" by Luis Fonsi featuring Daddy Yankee. It was the first video to reach 10 billion views in January 2022.

[dubb93]

The Baby Shark as standard bearer isn't streams, it's for YouTube video

Ah yea it’s probably full of kids stuff right? My kids will watch the same damn videos 50 times a day.

[Mota]

Since TV money is footing a lot/most of the bills, yeah, it's pretty important.

What I was trying to say is just because something is popular doesn't make it better.

You still need to pay the bills though. I'll personally always pick a company that prioritizes actual pro wrestling over soap opera, but it's also still important to make a match mean something. AEW lost a lot of it's lustre when they stopped creating reasons for people to fight each other.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ah yea it’s probably full of kids stuff right? My kids will watch the same damn videos 50 times a day.

About half the top 10 I think.

Then again, the other half are pop dreck so bad that I struggle to fathom how anyone over the age of 3 can watch them either soooooo

[Mota]

The real number one is Taylor Swift if you want to try to make that one work somehow.

I definitely misquoted that one, sorry.

[Carman Bulldog]

WWE is McDonald's. AEW is like a Wendy's. Wendy's will never be as big as McDonald's; that does not mean Wendy's is not, or cannot be, successful. It's also very weird when the McDonald's fans actively root for Wendy's to go out of business.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wrestle Kingdom attendance down over 10% versus last year., just 24,000.
Night 2 is the AEW joint "Wrestle Dynasty" bullshit and draws only 16,000

Chairman announces that he's "disappointed", speaks of moving future AEW joint shows away from WK weekend. Says he "thinks" Takeshita has signed a one year contract with NJPW (apparently under contract to AEW, DDT, and now NJPW simultaneously)

Gee, you just had AEW wrestlers (not counting Takeshita) walk away with more titles, why the fuck you think people might not be inclined to pay to see that?

One of your "new three musketeers" got actively booed both nights, as a face, by one of the kindest gentlest crowds of the year. One of the few people you've booked correctly in the past couple of years breaks his arm five minutes into a title match. Your only heels left are a comedy act, as your best heel in a long while has become de facto face by simply speaking some obvious truths. Your top remaining regular star(s) look like shells of themselves (Naito vs Hiromu happened five years too late unfortunately).

Gee, can't imagine why people aren't flocking to the highest priced shows of the year.

[dubb93]

New Japan really messed up letting AEW control all of their talent. I still don't understand why they have allowed AEW to walk all over them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

New Japan really messed up letting AEW control all of their talent. I still don't understand why they have allowed AEW to walk all over them.

There's a very weird inferiority complex that seems to be at the core of it. And they really don't seem to have the slightest clue at the top either.

[dubb93]

There's a very weird inferiority complex that seems to be at the core of it. And they really don't seem to have the slightest clue at the top either.

It sucks because I vastly prefer the NJPW product to the AEW product and would much rather those guys work in Japan than for Tony. To me AEW just hasn't been able to capture what I enjoy in wrestling like New Japan was able to. I'm worried that AEW will put New Japan out of business under the guise of friendship.

[dubb93]

Is RAW on Netflix not in kayfabe or what the fuck is going on. First Triple H mentions faces and heels and then The Rock comes out and names Roman Reigns the tribal chief and kisses Cody Rhodes ass going so far as to hug him. What the hell is happening here?

[JonInMiddleGA]

It sucks because I vastly prefer the NJPW product to the AEW product and would much rather those guys work in Japan than for Tony. To me AEW just hasn't been able to capture what I enjoy in wrestling like New Japan was able to. I'm worried that AEW will put New Japan out of business under the guise of friendship.

Pretty much the reason I feel TK is the worst thing to happen to wrestling since Vince Russo.

If he wasn't such a clueless git about virtually everything he touches it might be different ... but he is, and it isn't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And in an incredibly bizarre turn of events, commentator Chris Charlton has been suspended for 2 months by NJPW for his anti-AEW remarks during the weekend.

While I'm admittedly a bit weary of Charlton of late, in a million years I can't see how anything he said (and I heard every word of it live) could have crossed his mind as remotely objectionable since it was entirely in line with the entire build up for Omega vs Kidd.

Honestly, about the only thing that might save the company at this point would be for some big name from NJPW to pick their moment on a live AEW show and just lay down in the middle of the ring and say "I thought that's what NJPW was supposed to do if AEW was involved"

[dubb93]

Big ouch on no Rock for WrestleMania. Guess we are getting Roman-Punk and Cody-Cena as the two headliners.

[dubb93]

Wish I didn’t have to, but had to explain to my oldest that Hulk Hogan is a piece of shit. I kept telling him they were cheering and he kept saying it sounded like booing. “Why are they booing him?” “Are they cheering or booing? It sounds like boos.” I hate this show.

[Flasch186]

We had an awesome problem on their hands now with the hogan beer thing. It’ll be interesting to see how they handle weekly booing that is certainly opposite of what they want when clocking a beer to the masses.

So underwhelmed by the show last night. Horrible.

[RainMaker]

The beer is actually brewed here in Chicago and I've had it twice. Really funny that they bought into the brand and are actually promoting it so much on TV.

[RainMaker]

Big ouch on no Rock for WrestleMania. Guess we are getting Roman-Punk and Cody-Cena as the two headliners.

Did they just abandon a 2-year storyline or whatever? Like what happened to Rock and Cody hating each other? What about the staredown after Bad Blood? Kind of weird to just kill all that and have The Rock prop up some Netflix execs I've never heard of.

[RainMaker]

Pretty much the reason I feel TK is the worst thing to happen to wrestling since Vince Russo.

If he wasn't such a clueless git about virtually everything he touches it might be different ... but he is, and it isn't.

I blame NJPW way more for this. If a promotion is just going to let you walk all over them, why wouldn't you do it? They've made an active choice to be big brothered at all these events.

It's a shame because I really like the idea of cross-promotion shows. You get some cool matchups and unique locations.

[Toddzilla]

I blame NJPW way more for this. If a promotion is just going to let you walk all over them, why wouldn't you do it? They've made an active choice to be big brothered at all these events.

It's a shame because I really like the idea of cross-promotion shows. You get some cool matchups and unique locations.
Cross-promotion is great stuff, but imagine if WWE and TNA/DDT/Whomever ran a huge show the day before Wrestlemania.

[dubb93]

I know the number of people that watch classic wrestling is probably pretty low but it's hard to believe we have entered another age of classic wrestling purgatory with the Netflix deal where classic RAWs are simply not available to watch by any legal means currently. Peacock was forced to remove them all and Netflix has chosen not to add them. Remember back when the WWE Network first started and one of the big ideas was that all of this content would be available forever? That was a joke, right?

[JonInMiddleGA]

That was a joke, right?

Yep.

[Mota]

I know the number of people that watch classic wrestling is probably pretty low but it's hard to believe we have entered another age of classic wrestling purgatory with the Netflix deal where classic RAWs are simply not available to watch by any legal means currently. Peacock was forced to remove them all and Netflix has chosen not to add them. Remember back when the WWE Network first started and one of the big ideas was that all of this content would be available forever? That was a joke, right?

I loved the WWE Network, and subbed even though I wasn't a fan of the WWE product at the time. Then they screwed over the Canadian market by preventing the app from working in Canada, you had to watch through the website. And then they made it even worse, you had to watch through a 3rd party Sportsnet app which had very little classic content.

I'm currently watching ECW history from 1994, they were still Eastern Championship Wrestling at the time. It is just wild! Removing all of the excessive violence, the fighting "feeling" out of control would be cool to incorporate in today's wrestling. Maybe a bit of Lucha Underground added to it. That's what AEW should try to be today, something completely different than WWE.

[Suicane75]

I've had the idea in my head of a southern gothic style Lucha Underground for years now. Same format, same tv presentation, just with southern horror, mystery and charm. I realize it's an uphill battle to make that any sort of a profitable endeavor but the first few seasons of LU were so good that I'd selfishly like to see an attempt.

[Mota]

Apparently Penta looked good on Raw last night. I think he's great, and his brother is even better. My biggest fear is that they don't speak English, so they'll never get featured. WWE is all about the 20 minute talking segments, so they'll always be secondary characters. Which is basically exactly what they ended up being in AEW, so I can't see how they'd be much happier there.

He does look to be in much better shape than he was in AEW, looks about 20 lbs lighter.

[dubb93]

Apparently Penta looked good on Raw last night. I think he's great, and his brother is even better. My biggest fear is that they don't speak English, so they'll never get featured. WWE is all about the 20 minute talking segments, so they'll always be secondary characters. Which is basically exactly what they ended up being in AEW, so I can't see how they'd be much happier there.

He does look to be in much better shape than he was in AEW, looks about 20 lbs lighter.

He speaks English, but Gunther says hi! Penta will be a IC/US title guy and that’s fine for him. I don’t understand why everyone thinks they have to be WWE World Champion in WWE but are content wrestling on Collision in AEW.

[NobodyHere]

Wish I didn’t have to, but had to explain to my oldest that Hulk Hogan is a piece of shit. I kept telling him they were cheering and he kept saying it sounded like booing. “Why are they booing him?” “Are they cheering or booing? It sounds like boos.” I hate this show.

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[NobodyHere]

The beer is actually brewed here in Chicago and I've had it twice. Really funny that they bought into the brand and are actually promoting it so much on TV.

How is it?

[miami_fan]

Cross-promotion is great stuff, but imagine if WWE and TNA/DDT/Whomever ran a huge show the day before Wrestlemania.

Todd, are you a WWE/TNA insider?;)

WWE & TNA Wrestling announce multi-year partnership | WWE (https://www.wwe.com/article/wwe-tna-wrestling-announce-multi-year-partnership)

[RainMaker]

How is it?

Busch Light tier but twice the price. Notuing wrong with that but you're paying for the can.

[Mota]

I've been watching WWE since the Netflix launch, and I do have some updated comments about them.
First of all, the crowds are massive, and they are loud. That's pretty impressive.
They're doing a good job with Penta.
It's not as cartoony as it was even 6 months ago. Seems like a more sophisticated presentation.
Booker T is the worst announcer in wrestling. He's like Michael Cole was several years ago, too excited about everything, it's extremely fake.
I'm going to try and watch it again. I'm still fast forwarding through a bunch of the crap though.


AEW Feedback:
The crowds are getting eerily quiet. And smaller. Hammersmith audience was really good though.
Wrestling is still miles ahead of WWE. But the bad crowds aren't helping.
Toni Storm is amazing
Tony Khan really needs to think about 2026 or 2027, and try to think of who he wants at the top of the card then. And start building them up now. There are too many ex-WWE guys right now, and the personality that made AEW is largely gone.
I agree with keeping the guys who don't want to be there off TV. CM Punk showed what happens when you have these guys in the dressing room, and you're better off keeping them at home. Let the guys who want to be there shine.

[Mota]

More feedback...
Jacob Fatu is great. His persona is very strong, and he's also a good talker. I think they need to keep him to shorter talking segments, but they're very effective. They really have a gem with him.
Solo Sikoa has not done well as the leader of the opposite side. He was the worst of the bloodline members, so I'm glad they're apparently doing some sort of reshuffle.

In AEW, I've enjoyed the growth of Kyle Fletcher, and Takeshita is a mean dude. I think Takeshita's ceiling is lower in the USA because he doesn't speak English, he may be more successful in NJPW.

[dubb93]

I don’t think anyone saw that Rumble winner coming.

[dubb93]

So some people say it I guess. Jey was 68-1 to win on Friday and then on Saturday when they say the “smart money” comes in he closed to 20-1 but still a massive underdog.

[RainMaker]

So my brother took his kids to Indy for the Rumble. Got to meet a lot of wrestlers and had a great time. But he talked about how incredible Dominik Mysterio was with my niece.

She's really shy and he was apparently really good about coaxing her into talking to him and smiling for the photo. Then they saw him later on outside a restaurant and he somehow remembered her name. She's young and probably had the greatest weekend of her life and that was a big part of it.

Nothing to really add but that guy is a pro and hope nothing but success for him.

[dubb93]

So my brother took his kids to Indy for the Rumble. Got to meet a lot of wrestlers and had a great time. But he talked about how incredible Dominik Mysterio was with my niece.

She's really shy and he was apparently really good about coaxing her into talking to him and smiling for the photo. Then they saw him later on outside a restaurant and he somehow remembered her name. She's young and probably had the greatest weekend of her life and that was a big part of it.

Nothing to really add but that guy is a pro and hope nothing but success for him.

He gets alot of undeserved flak from the IWC for having overness > ring skill. I mean it kind of is his fault that he got over before he was ready in the ring, but you can't really hold that against him. It's like the Die Rocky Die era with him and while I can't imagine him ever approaching Rock levels there isn't any reason he can't be a top heel in a few years. WWE needs to get back to pushing the sneaky cheating heel. Dom would be the best at it. Triple H really likes his monster heels like though.

[Mota]

So my brother took his kids to Indy for the Rumble. Got to meet a lot of wrestlers and had a great time. But he talked about how incredible Dominik Mysterio was with my niece.

She's really shy and he was apparently really good about coaxing her into talking to him and smiling for the photo. Then they saw him later on outside a restaurant and he somehow remembered her name. She's young and probably had the greatest weekend of her life and that was a big part of it.

Nothing to really add but that guy is a pro and hope nothing but success for him.

How old is your niece? That is pretty insane that he remembered her name later on that night. He probably met quite a few people.

I have such good memories of going to shows with my son. I started to take him from the age of 5, and the wrestlers went out of their way to talk to him, we were in line to buy some food at an ROH show and Mark Briscoe just walked up to my son and started to talk to him. Then he turned 14 and all of a sudden, they wanted $10 to sign his autograph book, LOL.

At his 10th birthday party, he took a bunch of friends to a Smash Wrestling show and The Bunny took a picture with all of the boys. I thanked her after, and she talked about how her dad used to bring her to all the shows when she was a little girl. A lot of them still remember being fans.

[RainMaker]

She is 11 but has a unique name that he joked with her about. Her name is Evelyn but goes by Evie. He spelled it EV at first and then told her it's so much easier to do it that way and that her Dad was trying to make her life harder.

My brother has taken them to a lot of signings and events over the last few years and apparently some wrestlers are just really cool and make the kids feel welcome while others just sign, take photo, and move on. He is the former. Natalya, Miz, and Rhea were also supposedly incredibly nice although Rhea had the longest line and so people were a little rushed which is understandable.

[Mota]

I'll agree with you on Natalya being nice. I met her at a Walmart manager's show many years ago, and she was very friendly. I'm sure she is great with the kids as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Friend of mine was on the recent Jericho cruise, said Big Bill (aka Big Cas, aka William Morrissey) was just about the nicest guy ever. Just real down to earth.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Local indy show at a bar maybe 15 minutes from my house tonight but damned if I can justify even getting dressed to go see it.

Billy Gunn, QT Marshall (who owns this promotion, the revived Dusty Rhodes brand Turnbuckle Championship Wrestling), Krule (from MLW) and Satnam Singh are the "names"

Damned if that feels worth leaving the house over, even if I'm bored to fucking death and in dire need of some sort of distraction from life.

MLW is in Atlanta tomorrow night, but it's basically the exact same lineup I just saw a couple months ago with just a few different matchups. Not worth that drive to me. (would have been different if Suzuki was on the show)

[RainMaker]

Did they replace Charlotte Flair or something because this new version looks nothing like what I remember.

[Mota]

Local indy show at a bar maybe 15 minutes from my house tonight but damned if I can justify even getting dressed to go see it.

Billy Gunn, QT Marshall (who owns this promotion, the revived Dusty Rhodes brand Turnbuckle Championship Wrestling), Krule (from MLW) and Satnam Singh are the "names"

Damned if that feels worth leaving the house over, even if I'm bored to fucking death and in dire need of some sort of distraction from life.

MLW is in Atlanta tomorrow night, but it's basically the exact same lineup I just saw a couple months ago with just a few different matchups. Not worth that drive to me. (would have been different if Suzuki was on the show)

Yeah, when it comes to my independent wrestling, I'll always support the groups that bring out the young and hungry guys, over the post-legend guys on the hanger-ons.

Then you can at least watch WWE or AEW 5 years later and see a bunch of guys that you met at the small shows and had some one on one chats with them, before you have to spend hundreds of dollars to meet them.

We have another company in Toronto that always brings in the super old guys with names and they bring in bigger crowds, but I have no interest in seeing 70 year old Honky Tonk Man vs. The Barbarian or something dumb like that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, when it comes to my independent wrestling, I'll always support the groups that bring out the young and hungry guys, over the post-legend guys on the hanger-ons.

Then you can at least watch WWE or AEW 5 years later and see a bunch of guys that you met at the small shows and had some one on one chats with them, before you have to spend hundreds of dollars to meet them.



The problem here, I think, is that there wasn't any of the young talent that really stands out enough to make for a good mix. It's the old guys + Nightmare Factory trainees (the school that Cody Rhodes & QT Marshall co-own).

I was lucky, I got to see some the prime indy talent in Georgia at the stage you're talking about. Saw AJ Styles work something like his 3rd ever match, a very young (now) Xavier Woods, a young Abyss. And the mix was youngsters + indy mainstays (David Young, Homicide, etc) with the occasional visit from a bigger name, New Jack was a frequent visitor. It just worked.

[JonInMiddleGA]

KENTA signs with Pro Wrestling NOAH.

Over half the matches in his 25 year career have been with NOAH, seems only right that he returns for an extended period.

NJPW really wasn't using him that much, certainly not doing anything notable. He worked about 60 matches a year for them after returning from his WWE stint but hadn't won a singles match in NJPW since the last night of G1 in August 2023 (only worked 3 singles match for them in the next 16 months)

So, yeah, I'm good with it.

[Mota]

Maybe it gives him a chance to light a spark again. His career has basically been dead for the last few years. I don't have a problem with that, NJPW really needs to focus on creating new stars. It's not time to start pushing guys like Kenta, Chase Owens or Sanada. Move on to the next generation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe it gives him a chance to light a spark again. His career has basically been dead for the last few years. I don't have a problem with that, NJPW really needs to focus on creating new stars. It's not time to start pushing guys like Kenta, Chase Owens or Sanada. Move on to the next generation.

I'm just happy it worked out that I got to see KENTA in Atlanta a couple months back when he did one of his several MLW appearances. Got to see him and Kojima in person, so it was worth my time & trouble.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NJPW really needs to focus on creating new stars.

Transitional champ Goto isn't doing much for me, that's for sure. That feels like Japanese fan service, which hey, they sold the building out for it so good for them.

KENTA I was at least personally willing - granted for nostalgia sake - to pay to see. There's a noticeable scarcity of that (for me) on the NJPW payroll right now. I'm pretty close to done with them I'm afraid, too much AEWs bitch stank, only a small handful of people I actively want to see ... and quite a few I really DON'T want to see.

Tsuji and Takeshita are their future, Kidd is at least their present, just not sure how much else is going to come to fruition.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lucharesu pioneer Gran Hamada passes away at 74. Without him, I'm not sure what modern pro wrestling even looks like, an underappreciated trailblazer.

Just a moment... (https://www.webisjericho.com/legendary-japanese-wrestler-ecw-original-has-passed-away/)

[SirFozzie]

I watched a bit of the new WWE training/reality show, "Legends and Future Greats" (or WWE LFG).

Interesting moment when Bubba Ray Dudley (one of the four coaches was introduced, and one of the overconfident trainees (who had been there nine months) tried to shake his hand.

Bubba Ray wanted NOTHING to do with that, telling him "I'll shake your hand when you've earned that right". I could feel Jon's agreement all the way up here in New England. Probably followed by a "In the old days, they would have stretched him, possibly injured him, and kicked him out the door and told him to never come back unless he learned some fucking respect".

[Mota]

Haha I watched the first episode as well. The promo he gave about it was excellent, but then he should have just left it at that, instead he basically advertised that it wasn't a promo and just had a terrible attitude.

I was listening to Joe Hendry on Busted Open Radio a few weeks ago, and he said to succeed in wrestling, you need the strange combination of ultimate confidence in yourself, and ultimate humility. I don't think this dude has both of those traits.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I watched a bit of the new WWE training/reality show, "Legends and Future Greats" (or WWE LFG).

Interesting moment when Bubba Ray Dudley (one of the four coaches was introduced, and one of the overconfident trainees (who had been there nine months) tried to shake his hand.

Bubba Ray wanted NOTHING to do with that, telling him "I'll shake your hand when you've earned that right". I could feel Jon's agreement all the way up here in New England. Probably followed by a "In the old days, they would have stretched him, possibly injured him, and kicked him out the door and told him to never come back unless he learned some fucking respect".

On the other hand, I don't recall who it was but somebody just recently got reported heat for NOT shaking hands with everybody in the back. I get the distinction Bubba is probably making "you don't do that until you're on the roster" ... but depending on the timing of this, I can see where that nuance could have been missed by a trainee. This feels more like Bubba trying to make a TV moment and get himself over.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah, I think here it was him trying to set the role "I'm here to train you. You're nothing until we say you are."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, I think here it was him trying to set the role "I'm here to train you. You're nothing until we say you are."

"Show me your war face"

[Toddzilla]

This feels more like Bubba trying to make a TV moment and get himself over.He's literally done nothing but for decades

[albionmoonlight]

This is probably an unanswerable question because whether someone is "officially" a face or a heel can be hard to pin down.

But Cena's heel turn got me wondering--where does his face run rank among the longest uninterrupted face or heel runs in wrestling?

Was Flair an official heel the whole time--even as people began to root for him? I also lack the sense of history or of other promotions that y'all have that might have some longer examples.

Thoughts?

[Mota]

I'm pretty sure Flair was face from time to time. When Terry Funk piledrove him, that was definitely a face run.

Definitely Cena has been a face for a VERY long time, probably too long. It's certainly a strange time to turn him, as he is doing his farewell tour, but this is a chance to make this final run more than just fanservice.

I quit the WWE LFG show, it was not good. Too much focus on the wrestling, and they're not good wrestlers. I can only watch so many shoulder blocks and hip tosses.

[dubb93]

Doing something with him was the only way to heat him up enough to get to title #17. It isn’t like he’s showing up to TV enough to get himself hot and he hasn’t won a match in years.

[dubb93]

I hope they go full Corporation/NWO and use this as a chance to get some younger guys some exposure too. Of course that would require Rock and Cena to actually show up to TV.

[Maple Leafs]

This is probably an unanswerable question because whether someone is "officially" a face or a heel can be hard to pin down.

But Cena's heel turn got me wondering--where does his face run rank among the longest uninterrupted face or heel runs in wrestling?

Has Rey Mysterio ever been a heel?

(I mean, beyond being a deadbeat dad?)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Has Rey Mysterio ever been a heel?

(I mean, beyond being a deadbeat dad?)

I had to Google to remember ... but yes, "officially" he has: when the Filthy Animals faction formed in WCW they were technically heels (Mysterio has argued that it's as close to heel as he came but that they were "just being themselves").

He got hurt while him & Konnan took the titles from Harlem Heat, so Kidman filled in and they flipped the belts back a week later. He returned with the faction having slid into part of the larger "New Blood" group which was supposed to be face vs The Millionaire's Club ... but that faded when TMC got most of the face pops lol

[Maple Leafs]

Huh. Interesting.

The only other guy I can think of who had an actual heel turn after being a face for almost two decades would have been Bob Backlund back in 1994. But he hadn't been around in forever.

[dubb93]

We are a week away from WrestleMania and this thread hasn’t been touched in over a month.

I really feel like the current WWE bubble is on the verge of popping. Sky rocketing ticket prices (or as the new manager call it premium pricing) combined with what has to be one of the least interesting Mania cards/builds I can remember (and I’ve been watching since ‘89,) it just really feels like they aren’t going to be able to maintain the current level of financial success they are have been getting the last year and a half, (and even Mania isn’t selling nearly as fast as i believe they hoped looks like we are headed towards a secondary market that may end up being below face value this week.)

The real question is if WWE continues to plow ahead into mediocrity and business declines significantly is if that will be an opportunity for someone else to step up or if we end up with another wrestling market crash?

[Mota]

In January I was talking about how WWE had moved ahead of AEW in terms of quality, as I gave it another chance after the Netflix intro.

But even a month after that, I struggled to keep up with weekly TV. I got to Elimination Chamber and I gave up on WWE again. If you listen to Busted Open Radio, all they talk about is the interview segments and how good they are. For me, those segments are important, but they need to make you care about watching the actual match. WWE always forgets that. For them, the entrances and interviews ARE the reason to watch.

AEW started to put together more long term storylines again, and they're making you care about the matches. And then when that PPV comes, those matches are great! Jey Uso may get the fans to bob up and down to his song, but they aren't nearly as invested once his matches start.

In terms of my rankings of the shows I watch, I'd put it:
1. AEW
2. Stardom
3. NJPW
4. WWE
5. Marigold

[dubb93]

But even a month after that, I struggled to keep up with weekly TV. I got to Elimination Chamber and I gave up on WWE again. If you listen to Busted Open Radio, all they talk about is the interview segments and how good they are. For me, those segments are important, but they need to make you care about watching the actual match. WWE always forgets that. For them, the entrances and interviews ARE the reason to watch.


But the interviews haven't been great. I could give you a few Cody-Cena segments and admit that even though the story itself isn't spectacular that Roman-Seth-and especially Punk can cut promos. The problem with this is that between Smackdown and RAW there is 6 hours of TV a week now and 5 and a half of it isn't interesting. WWE needs to create something on the scale of The Bloodline (but please no more Bloodline) to get out of this rut. Rock/Cena/(insert whatever else here) had potential but Cena barely shows up and The Rock doesn't show up at all. What can you really do with that when you have 6 hours of TV a week to push forward. Last year Rock and Roman were actually showing up and it was interesting.

[Mota]

I agree about the shows being too long. 3 hours is what turned me off Raw many years ago.

In the WWE, there are maybe 5 wrestlers that matter. Everybody else is irrelevant. So if you're still giving the same amount of airtime to those select wrestlers, it means an extra hour of #DIY randomly bumping into Chase U in the hallway backstage, prompting a match later on that night which likely ends in an interference DQ.

[RainMaker]

For me, I really only pay attention to the PPVs. Maybe I'll watch the TV show if there is nothing on and I need something in the background. But with baseball season here, that's pretty rare.

Part of the problem with modern wrestling is that there's like 6 hours a week of TV for each promotion and most of it is worthless filler. If by some chance, there is a big moment, you can find the clip on YouTube. But this isn't like the attitude era when something big was happening at all times.

I think WWE is the better product at the moment because Tony is such a horrendous booker. But AEW does have the better in-ring talent and better matches from what I've seen. And I'll always catch a big NJPW show if the card looks good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And I'll always catch a big NJPW show if the card looks good.

They're just soooooo determined to shoot themselves in the foot that it's getting harder and harder for me to watch.

The latest example being putting a belt on Jeff Cobb a week before he leaves the company. Cobb completely clowned them but couldn't have done so without the braindead cooperation of whatever the hell passes for management at NJPW.

They truly appear incapable of running a hot knife through warm butter at this point.

[Mota]

I'm pretty far behind on my NJPW watching right now, I'm just starting the Best of the Super Jr's from 2024.
They just lost a bunch of their top talent, and instead of pushing the young guys, they keep treating them like they need to pay their dues. That's fine when your top roster is healthy, but when your top star is a broken Naito, it's pretty sad. They also never should have cut Yuya Uemura's hair!

And Rainmaker, you should watch AEW more now, because the booking is much better than it was just a few months ago.

[RainMaker]

They're just soooooo determined to shoot themselves in the foot that it's getting harder and harder for me to watch.

The latest example being putting a belt on Jeff Cobb a week before he leaves the company. Cobb completely clowned them but couldn't have done so without the braindead cooperation of whatever the hell passes for management at NJPW.

They truly appear incapable of running a hot knife through warm butter at this point.

Yeah, they've been tough to watch or make sense of recently. Honestly, I'm just a G1 mark at this point. It's like a 1-month break from American wrestling where I just get to watch good matches over and over. They haven't messed that up yet (but they've tried!).



And Rainmaker, you should watch AEW more now, because the booking is much better than it was just a few months ago.

I'll give them another whirl, I just haven't liked who they're pushing. The death riders stuff does nothing for me. They also seem to focus a lot on aging former WWE guys like Edge, Christian, and Jericho.

It also feels much harder for a casual like myself to keep up. This is something WWE does well. You can miss a month and jump in and they'll tell you what's happening. A lot of AEW feels like if you don't follow all the promotions and all the shows, you're lost. They'll debut some guy from Japan or whatever and I'm just lost as to who they are. A guy like Wardlow will just disappear. You'll tune in and there's a new stable and you have to search how they even formed and it's some random segment on ROH which I don't even know how to watch.

[Mota]

They do tend to cycle guys in and out. And if Tony hears any inklings that someone want to go to the WWE, they stop getting used immediately. I have no problem with that, no point in using the malcontents who want to leave.

NJPW is the exact opposite, they could have taken the opportunity to push new guys when Ospreay and Okada left last year, and they didn't. And they gave Jeff Cobb a title a week before leaving! That's insane.

I heard Mariah May is likely going to the WWE after her contract expires. That's too bad. She was an amazing part of the roster since debuting, and I felt she was used very well. She is a great wrestler with a great personality, so it will be a big loss if the rumors are true.

For the other people that left AEW and are moving to WWE, hopefully they get what they're looking for, but most of these guys were unhappy in WWE prior to going to AEW, so they might just be some miserable people that need 100% winning percentage to keep them happy. And that's mostly directed towards Rusev and Malakai Black. Super talented guys, but apparently not easy to work with.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NJPW is the exact opposite, they could have taken the opportunity to push new guys when Ospreay and Okada left last year, and they didn't. And they gave Jeff Cobb a title a week before leaving! That's insane.



Well, they've given several guys a shot at pushes, the success rate has varied.

Tsuji is a legit main eventer, the part-time deal (?) with Takeshita gives them another. Arguably the two most promising talents on the planet right now.

There hasn't been a more dynamic guy in the company than Gabe Kidd for the past year. (whether he sticks around remains a question) And against all odds, they seem to have finally revived Finlay's usefulness at least a little in the past few weeks.

Oiwa, Uemura, Maloney, Boltin are all up the card from where they were a year ago.

Shooter? Well, MAYBE they've got ... something ... figured out now. Cause he'd flopped hard until the latest attitude adjustment.

All that said, among their many problems is that they didn't really have much of the youth in the midcard, ready to elevate to the top tier. You can only move the youngsters fresh out of black trunks up the card so fast without getting pushback from their domestic fans. That's left them trying to plug holes and buy time with Goto et al.

But if they don't stop bending over & grabbing their ankles every time an English speaking company wants to fuck them I'm not sure all that young talent will really matter, nobody may be left to give a fuck by the time it's ready to be top level talent

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sigh.

Confirmed this morning that Naito and NJPW have "mutually agreed" to not renew his contract. His last day with the company will be May 4th.

[RainMaker]

What the hell? Where is NJPW spending their money?

[dubb93]

What the hell? Where is NJPW spending their money?

Same place every sports team I root for is. They aren’t.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oh, just to add to the NJPW woes ... official now, Bushi has asked for and received his release from the company. His last day is the same as Naito's (working through May 4th)

Casuals may not realize what a blow that is but he's worked more matches for the company than anyone on the roster each of the last three years. And has never been lower than 7th in matches worked since 2015. (4x most used worker in that span)

[JonInMiddleGA]

What the hell? Where is NJPW spending their money?

Feels like we're getting closer and closer to the phrase "WHAT money?"

[Mota]

We may see Satoshi Kojima, Jushin Thunder Liger and Great Muta coming back at this rate to fill in the rosters.

[JonInMiddleGA]

We may see Satoshi Kojima, Jushin Thunder Liger and Great Muta coming back at this rate to fill in the rosters.

Kojima's in shape at least, working pretty steadily for MLW in recent months.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting tweet from Minoru Suzuki tonight (it's a Grok translation so I doubt it's precise but the gist of it feels accurate)

"Looks like they're doing it in the same vibe as Minoru Suzuki"
Don't get it twisted. It ain't the same. I've been freelancing for over 20 years without signing a contract with anyone. Living day-to-day as a day laborer.
To the clueless wrestling fans: Don't underestimate freelancers.

[Mota]

I just don't see the value in Naito anywhere but in Japan. Even with Okada, his value is much less in the USA than in Japan. And he's still a great wrestler. Naito can't wrestle like he used to, and his English is not good. He really needs to stay in Japan as an attraction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just don't see the value in Naito anywhere but in Japan. Even with Okada, his value is much less in the USA than in Japan. And he's still a great wrestler. Naito can't wrestle like he used to, and his English is not good. He really needs to stay in Japan as an attraction.

I don't get the sense he's going to do much else. This feels more health related than anything to me. He had said just a few weeks back that he wouldn't re-sign if he didn't believe he could physically make it to the end of the contract. I don't believe he ever fully recovered from the eye surgeries, then the knee surgeries.

Most likely NOAH gives him a good payday for a limited schedule, he does that as long as he can and then rides off into the sunset.

[RainMaker]

I feel the same about Okada. He's just bigger in Japan. Messing around in the AEW midcard feels beneath him and I'm aware he's sort of lost a step.

Naito is just NJPW to me. I can't fathom him anywhere else and don't see why NJPW didn't offer him some kind of limited schedule (maybe they did and he didn't want it?). There's just some guys who mean that much to a promotion that you have to overpay to keep them.