Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[CrescentMoonie]

Mike Bennett and Maria are gone from TNA. They also let Jade's contract expire despite her featuring in the title picture just last week.

Either Jarrett is clearing the way for all his GFW people to finally get regular TV time, or this actually is the beginning of the end of TNA. I guess we'll find out at the TV tapings tomorrow.

[CrescentMoonie]

Alberto Del Rio, ODB, and Rachel Ellering at the TNA tapings. Garza Jr and Laredo Kid from Konnan's CRASH promotion in Tijuana. Matt Morgan, Bruce Prichard, and maybe Karen Jarrett involved in various ways as well.

Announcer feud between Borash and Matthews along with everyone saying how stupid the former owners were could be the first two big storylines. Ugh.

Jim Ross to TNA? That would be a surprising move considering how openly critical he's been of the recent talent departures.

[murrayyyyy]

Alberto Del Rio, ODB, and Rachel Ellering at the TNA tapings. Garza Jr and Laredo Kid from Konnan's CRASH promotion in Tijuana. Matt Morgan, Bruce Prichard, and maybe Karen Jarrett involved in various ways as well.

Announcer feud between Borash and Matthews along with everyone saying how stupid the former owners were could be the first two big storylines. Ugh.

Jim Ross to TNA? That would be a surprising move considering how openly critical he's been of the recent talent departures.

So how long until we get Swagger-Del Rio with Dutch Mantel in the middle?

All I need now is Don West back pushing a Brown Bag special every 5 seconds.

Wondering if JJ tries to get everyone from Smokey/USWA/CWA times since his dad was heavily involved there. I know Ross was Mid-South but close enough.

Is it true Abyss is the booker now?

[CrescentMoonie]

So how long until we get Swagger-Del Rio with Dutch Mantel in the middle?

All I need now is Don West back pushing a Brown Bag special every 5 seconds.

Wondering if JJ tries to get everyone from Smokey/USWA/CWA times since his dad was heavily involved there. I know Ross was Mid-South but close enough.

Is it true Abyss is the booker now?

They've mentioned Don West on TV for several weeks now. Alberto beats Lashley on night one. Dutch and Bruce on TV. Dusty finishes as far as the eye can see. And it sure seems like Dutch was hinting towards Swagger.

Without seeing it, the only thing that seems good from night 1 is that the TNA name is officially dead.

No idea on the booker, but who the hell knows what Impact Wrestling is up to?

[CrescentMoonie]

Swagger vs Alberto in Norwich on March 11. I can only assume he'll be in Impact when his no-compete clause runs out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Scary shit, here's hoping it's only scary :/

Tomoaki Honma carried out of the ring after suffering an injury (http://www.f4wonline.com/japan/tomoaki-honma-carried-out-ring-after-suffering-injury-231136?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

[CrescentMoonie]

Hey Vince, everybody hates Reigns and was starting to buy into Strowman. Way to screw it up senile old man.

Banks beats Nia clean. Bayley ends Charlotte's PPV win streak after Flair was convinced to leave Dana Brooke in the back and Sasha ran out to catch Charlotte cheating.

What the hell are they doing tonight?

[jbergey22]

Strowman vs Reigns was an excellent match. Strowman looked great, this loss didnt hurt him much. Getting sick of Goldberg squashes. At this point it doesnt look like Goldberg/Lesnar can Main Event WM with a 2 minute match. Joe is looking very strong. Nice booking with him so far.

[RainMaker]

2 minutes? We'd be so lucky. Goldberg just isn't in enough shape to do more than a couple moves. Like I understand his draw and don't have a problem with him on the card. But why bury your up and coming talent and turn over the championship? Why not just book him against someone like Rusev?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well that appears to have been a royal shitshow.

[jbergey22]

2 minutes? We'd be so lucky. Goldberg just isn't in enough shape to do more than a couple moves. Like I understand his draw and don't have a problem with him on the card. But why bury your up and coming talent and turn over the championship? Why not just book him against someone like Rusev?

Thats the crazy part. They are building this Lesnar/Goldberg match so presumably it will be the Main Event. But how the hell do they book it? Can they just let the heel destroy the face in a squash and call it a show? Im having a hard time understanding at this point where they can possibly go with Goldberg and his 2 moves?

[jbergey22]

Well that appears to have been a royal shitshow.

It was bad and very little storyline advancement. The highlights were Samoa Joe, Neville vs Gallagher, and Reigns/Strowman. The Main Event Event sucked and nothing of importance seemed to have happened.

[Mota]

This is 2017. Big jacked up guys that can't go in the ring are a thing of the past. These quick matches are still a novelty, but I can't wait for the crowd to turn on Goldberg.

The WWE just never seems to understand that in two months, Goldberg and Lesnar will be nowhere to be found, and it'll be Kevin Owens trying to fill up the house shows. You know, the guy they jobbed out in 4 seconds.

Also, you have such a likeable guy in Sami Zayn, yet he is a complete jobber in WWE. Then you have a guy like Roman Reigns who knows maybe 2 more moves than Goldberg, is rejected by the crowd, and yet he keeps getting shoved down our throats.

I know I talk about Roman Reigns a lot, but his booking continuously astounds me.

[CU Tiger]

The WWE just never seems to understand that in two months, Goldberg and Lesnar will be nowhere to be found, and it'll be Kevin Owens trying to fill up the house shows. You know, the guy they jobbed out in 4 seconds.



And the thing most seem to miss, house shows don't matter anymore.
That's the old business model. Today its all about PPV buys, WWE network subscriptions and direct ad sales.

[Neon_Chaos]

Owens vs Jericho for WM is going to steal the show.

[CrescentMoonie]

And the thing most seem to miss, house shows don't matter anymore.
That's the old business model. Today its all about PPV buys, WWE network subscriptions and direct ad sales.

PPV buys don't matter anymore. It's literally WWE network and ads for TV. House shows matter for merch sales, but I'm pretty sure most of that is online these days. That's it.

[murrayyyyy]

PPV buys don't matter anymore. It's literally WWE network and ads for TV. House shows matter for merch sales, but I'm pretty sure most of that is online these days. That's it.

The Network still operates at a loss I think but not a huge one since they opened up markets around the world now. Live shows and the TV deals make most of the profits for the WWE. I think Licensing is the third category for them in profits with Live Merch in 4th. If I remember correctly, Live show merch does triple what online does profit wise (which makes some sense with live show merch marked up while wwe.shop merch having some sort of marked down sale every day.)

[CrescentMoonie]

The Network still operates at a loss I think but not a huge one since they opened up markets around the world now. Live shows and the TV deals make most of the profits for the WWE. I think Licensing is the third category for them in profits with Live Merch in 4th. If I remember correctly, Live show merch does triple what online does profit wise (which makes some sense with live show merch marked up while wwe.shop merch having some sort of marked down sale every day.)

The network needed to hit, I believe, 1.2 million to make money and it's somewhere over 1.5 million at this point.

I guess the live show merchandise does make sense that way.

[murrayyyyy]

I didn't hate the show last night as when I think about the matches or individuals, they weren't horrible.

I thought certain wrestlers looked the best that I've seen in a while. Jinder (who will be suspended for HGH or steroids soon by those veins in his shoulder or acne on his back) looked probably the best I've seen in a wile. Nia looked more comfortable in her role (and I agree the end was wrong). Stroman and Reigns both looked good. Neville and Mary Poppins had a great match. Big Show moved around better than he has in probably a decade.

I guess my question is, besides Roman, who can you push as a face right now under the age of 40? {Jericho/Goldberg will be the face obviously on his way out} I guess Balor if he doesn't end up with the Club. I just can't see Zayn as the #2 face on RAW.

[murrayyyyy]

The network needed to hit, I believe, 1.2 million to make money and it's somewhere over 1.5 million at this point.

I guess the live show merchandise does make sense that way.

Quote from Q2 financial report 2016. This was them reaching 1.52 million subscribers. I suspect they are getting closer to higher profits with the production of their own shows more than buy libraries of tapes as of late.

– WWE Network Revenue was $51.8 million, but WWE reported a loss of $5.7 million.

This was due to how WWE allocated costs between Network and TV Production. WWE noted: “For the second quarter 2016, the implementation of this allocation methodology reduced Network segment (profit) by $5.3 million and increased Television segment (profit) by a corresponding $5.3 million.”

[CrescentMoonie]

I didn't hate the show last night as when I think about the matches or individuals, they weren't horrible.

I thought certain wrestlers looked the best that I've seen in a while. Jinder (who will be suspended for HGH or steroids soon by those veins in his shoulder or acne on his back) looked probably the best I've seen in a wile. Nia looked more comfortable in her role (and I agree the end was wrong). Stroman and Reigns both looked good. Neville and Mary Poppins had a great match. Big Show moved around better than he has in probably a decade.

I guess my question is, besides Roman, who can you push as a face right now under the age of 40? {Jericho/Goldberg will be the face obviously on his way out} I guess Balor if he doesn't end up with the Club. I just can't see Zayn as the #2 face on RAW.

They're handling Zayn correctly at the moment so that he can be built into the #2, or even #1, face down the road. You can't push Roman as a face because 65% of the crowd hates him on a good night.

Balor was correctly slotted as the top face and his injury was lousy luck for the brand. Rollins could be the top face but they haven't booked him well as one and he's gotten injured twice now. Maybe they realize that fans want to cheer Strowman right now and give him a run as a monster babyface before he turns on someone like Balor or Rollins?

The biggest problem is that Vince doesn't seem to know how to make a true babyface anymore. Daniel Bryan happened to him and he fought it every step along the way. Bayley's lack of integrity about the way she won the women's title is a perfect illustration of him/his writers not understanding what decent people do. Zayn is probably the last hope right now for a true babyface.

[murrayyyyy]

The biggest problem is that Vince doesn't seem to know how to make a true babyface anymore. Daniel Bryan happened to him and he fought it every step along the way. Bayley's lack of integrity about the way she won the women's title is a perfect illustration of him/his writers not understanding what decent people do. Zayn is probably the last hope right now for a true babyface.

Eh, I don't know about DB as I think it was handled how everyone wants. The struggle for the good guy always getting screwed with the climax @ Mania. I think that's the only way to make a true baby face now as we want everyone to be a heel or a tweener. Did they accidentally make it happen, sure, but it played out perfectly (minus his injury ending his career). It's become the gold standard as how people think a person should win their first title. When it doesn't happen this way, people freak the F out.

And that tweener part is my thoughts on how they are using Bayley. They don't have a tweener in the women's division. I think ultimately, Bayley is the face and Sasha becomes the tweener. The heels are defined unless they want to somehow go the Horsewomen route but they need an opposite faction that is as strong and they are years from that happening. If they can't find a tweener there then the women's division will continue to be the same matches for 18 straight weeks until they decide to change up the matchups for the next 18 week rotation.

Last chance at a true babyface is the struggle as I don't think fans want a true baby face. It's easier to be the heel than the face with most guys fitting the tweener role. Roman's problem is it's near impossible to go from heel to face. If Roman hadn't started with the shield then people would accept him as a face easier but they don't want to. They want the Shield to form again.

Who are the greatest faces of the last 30 years? Stone Cold (anti-the boss), Rock (anti-the boss), Sting (anti-everyone), D Bryan (anti-authority), Punk (anit-establishment), Cena. In almost every case it's the bosses versus the worker and it's been that way for 50+ years. Stephanie just can't pull off what Vince could in the past. I have hope that they will try the opposite with Kurt Angle being the commish soon on RAW and having the bad guys screw things for him with the need for to develop the good guys for us to root for.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They don't have a tweener in the women's division.

They have a perfect one ... she's just not been called up :/

[murrayyyyy]

They have a perfect one ... she's just not been called up :/

She can't talk and unfortunately you have to be able to on RAW. If not Cesaro would be the face that we need right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

She can't talk and unfortunately you have to be able to on RAW. If not Cesaro would be the face that we need right now.

She's more entertaining with 4-5 words than most of their roster with an hour of script.

[murrayyyyy]

She's more entertaining with 4-5 words than most of their roster with an hour of script.

If that was the case, she'd have her own show on E!

[JonInMiddleGA]

If that was the case, she'd have her own show on E!

That's about ... different assets ;)

[murrayyyyy]

That's about ... different assets ;)

Vince just needs a reminder on why they hired Gail Kim. Long rumored to be the reason was JR told him there was an Asian Porn fetish so they needed an Asian. I mean he gave the green light to Holy Foley so obviously Vince will let them make anything if someone gives them a reason.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Vince just needs a reminder on why they hired Gail Kim. Long rumored to be the reason was JR told him there was an Asian Porn fetish so they needed an Asian. I mean he gave the green light to Holy Foley so obviously Vince will let them make anything if someone gives them a reason.

ECW Extreme Warfare Volume 2 Ad (1996) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/D32UuXmV-JY)

[murrayyyyy]

ECW Extreme Warfare Volume 2 Ad (1996) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/D32UuXmV-JY)

I'll take a wild guess this is Kimona? You know Vince didn't watch ECW back then.

But Trips seems to was a lot of Impact so I wonder if he pulls in Jade and tries to package her with Asuka and use Jade as the mouthpiece.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll take a wild guess this is Kimona? You know Vince didn't watch ECW back then.

Yep, she's the last thing mentioned in the spot :)

[CrescentMoonie]

I'll take a wild guess this is Kimona? You know Vince didn't watch ECW back then.

But Trips seems to was a lot of Impact so I wonder if he pulls in Jade and tries to package her with Asuka and use Jade as the mouthpiece.

I'm fully on board with more Mia Yim on TV.

[CrescentMoonie]

Impact Wrestling is doomed. The storylines/roster sound horrible. Between a drunken Laurel Van Ness wearing her wedding gown after being shunned weeks earlier and then leaving with Earl Hebner, Chris Adonis (Masters) reviving the Masterlock Challenge, and Magnus showing up with the GFW title, it sounds like a complete train wreck.

On top of that, Spike denied a rumor they were negotiating to bring the show back.

[RainMaker]

Quote from Q2 financial report 2016. This was them reaching 1.52 million subscribers. I suspect they are getting closer to higher profits with the production of their own shows more than buy libraries of tapes as of late.

– WWE Network Revenue was $51.8 million, but WWE reported a loss of $5.7 million.

This was due to how WWE allocated costs between Network and TV Production. WWE noted: “For the second quarter 2016, the implementation of this allocation methodology reduced Network segment (profit) by $5.3 million and increased Television segment (profit) by a corresponding $5.3 million.”

How many of the subscribers are paid? They were running a 3-month free promo right around Royal Rumble. Believe they have another promo that's giving away WrestleMania for free too.

[RainMaker]

Owens vs Jericho for WM is going to steal the show.

It's too bad it's not for the title. Jericho going for one last title run at WM would have been amazing. It would have given the belt some much needed prestige and the crowd would have been hot for it. Could either give a great WM moment to Jericho or cement Owens as the top heel going forward.

Instead we'll get a 2 minute match with Lesnar and Goldberg a decade or so after they had a terrible main event in their primes.

[Suicane75]

How many of the subscribers are paid? They were running a 3-month free promo right around Royal Rumble. Believe they have another promo that's giving away WrestleMania for free too.

I've been a subscriber from the start. Cancelled today and was given a free month. I have a feeling they constantly have a lot of free monthers.

[RainMaker]

I've been a subscriber from the start. Cancelled today and was given a free month. I have a feeling they constantly have a lot of free monthers.

I subscribed at the start too. I cancel every few months, they come around and offer me free months, I cancel again, repeat. I probably end up with the network for 9 months out of the year and pay for 3 months tops. All I really care about is Summerslam, Royal Rumble, and Wrestlemania. Surprised they give those months for free so often.

[murrayyyyy]

How many of the subscribers are paid? They were running a 3-month free promo right around Royal Rumble. Believe they have another promo that's giving away WrestleMania for free too.

To be honest, it's wayyyyy lower than I thought.

http://corporate.wwe.com/investors/news/press-releases/2017/02-09-2017-133041348

According to the report on Dec 31st, 2016
1.473 million subscribers
Paid US 1.033 mil
Paid INT .37 mil
So paid is 1.403 so .07 is free subscribers. I figure more people are stealing Netflix at that rate.

[murrayyyyy]

It's too bad it's not for the title. Jericho going for one last title run at WM would have been amazing. It would have given the belt some much needed prestige and the crowd would have been hot for it. Could either give a great WM moment to Jericho or cement Owens as the top heel going forward.

Instead we'll get a 2 minute match with Lesnar and Goldberg a decade or so after they had a terrible main event in their primes.

Doesn't Jericho have the US title? I mean it's for a title, just not THE title.

At this point I think the best we can hope for is Goldberg winning the title and leaving it in the ring to end Mania with a 2 month tournament after to determine the new champion.

[CrescentMoonie]

I have it almost entirely for the tape library. It's worth the monthly price to me, and the PPVs/NXT are just a bonus.

[CrescentMoonie]

Doesn't Jericho have the US title? I mean it's for a title, just not THE title.

At this point I think the best we can hope for is Goldberg winning the title and leaving it in the ring to end Mania with a 2 month tournament after to determine the new champion.

That would be so much better than what we'll likely get. Lesnar wins, Reigns beats Taker, Reigns goes into chase mode and beats Lesnar at SS, Raw loses to Smackdown consistently by that point.

[murrayyyyy]

Impact Wrestling is doomed. The storylines/roster sound horrible. Between a drunken Laurel Van Ness wearing her wedding gown after being shunned weeks earlier and then leaving with Earl Hebner, Chris Adonis (Masters) reviving the Masterlock Challenge, and Magnus showing up with the GFW title, it sounds like a complete train wreck.

On top of that, Spike denied a rumor they were negotiating to bring the show back.

Cats don't have this many lives...

Isn't Spike changing their name anyway?

[dubb93]

I feel like they usually correct their booking heading into Mania. The year they pushed Roman when they shouldn't have we got Seth. They corrected their mistake and gave us Daniel Bryan. This year SHOULD have been Owens-Jericho and AJ-Cena(most likely with a third wheel since they have had a few encounters at this point.) This year I feel like they are rolling with their initial plans/mistakes.

[Maple Leafs]

That would be so much better than what we'll likely get. Lesnar wins, Reigns beats Taker, Reigns goes into chase mode and beats Lesnar at SS, Raw loses to Smackdown consistently by that point.
Are we sure that Goldberg doesn't win at Mania and stick around for at least a few more months?

I mean, clearly the plan was for Lesnar to get his win, initially at Survivor Series and then instead at Mania. But with Goldberg still getting a reaction, would it be that big of a shock if they had him win again and just kept doing the same basic squash match for a few more PPV main events?

The fans would get sick of it eventually, and probably sooner than later, but this is the WWE where no idea is too good to beat into the ground. And Lesnar seems like the one guy who wouldn't really care about not getting his promised win as long as the checks kept coming in. I'm not sure having him lose three times really hurts his whole aura all that much that doing it twice, which they already have.

[CrescentMoonie]

Are we sure that Goldberg doesn't win at Mania and stick around for at least a few more months?

I mean, clearly the plan was for Lesnar to get his win, initially at Survivor Series and then instead at Mania. But with Goldberg still getting a reaction, would it be that big of a shock if they had him win again and just kept doing the same basic squash match for a few more PPV main events?

The fans would get sick of it eventually, and probably sooner than later, but this is the WWE where no idea is too good to beat into the ground. And Lesnar seems like the one guy who wouldn't really care about not getting his promised win as long as the checks kept coming in. I'm not sure having him lose three times really hurts his whole aura all that much that doing it twice, which they already have.

Goldberg is already getting booed tonight.

[murrayyyyy]

Well I finally decided on what could be a horrible or great decision. Dragging along the 7 year old for ROH 15th anniversary this weekend.

I don't watch a a ton of ROH but I know the main players and figure I can't pass up on Lethal, Daniels, Cole, Bucks with the possibility of Hardy's and Bubba Ray jumping in now with what happened last week. Still gotta figure out where to hide the kid when Dalton and the Boys come out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Isn't Spike changing their name anyway?


Spike To Change Name, Become The Paramount Network In Viacom Rebranding | Deadline (http://deadline.com/2017/02/spike-name-change-the-paramount-network-viacom-1201906039/)

[Mota]

Well I finally decided on what could be a horrible or great decision. Dragging along the 7 year old for ROH 15th anniversary this weekend.

I don't watch a a ton of ROH but I know the main players and figure I can't pass up on Lethal, Daniels, Cole, Bucks with the possibility of Hardy's and Bubba Ray jumping in now with what happened last week. Still gotta figure out where to hide the kid when Dalton and the Boys come out.

Yeah, just make sure to warn him that he'll be hearing all kinds of nasty language. I brought my son to ROH shows from the age of 5, and he had plenty of warning. You're going to hear all kinds of bad language, if you repeat it, you're not coming back... and he didn't!

[Suicane75]

Well I finally decided on what could be a horrible or great decision. Dragging along the 7 year old for ROH 15th anniversary this weekend.

I don't watch a a ton of ROH but I know the main players and figure I can't pass up on Lethal, Daniels, Cole, Bucks with the possibility of Hardy's and Bubba Ray jumping in now with what happened last week. Still gotta figure out where to hide the kid when Dalton and the Boys come out.

I wouldn't take a 7 year old to a ROH show unless you were unable to go without him. Just seems like it'd be a bad environment for him and a distraction for you.

[CrescentMoonie]

Outlaw Ron Bass passes away (http://pwinsider.com/article/108210/outlaw-ron-bass-passes-away.html?p=1)

[Mota]

I wouldn't take a 7 year old to a ROH show unless you were unable to go without him. Just seems like it'd be a bad environment for him and a distraction for you.

When a 7 year old goes to an ROH show...

Austin Aries kicks at him and stares him down during his entrance
Mark Briscoe gives him a high five near the concession stands on his way to buy a beer
Colt Cabana walks over to him after the show and makes sure he had a good time
The merch guy gives him a free Nakajima autograph

So many good things happen to a 7 year old when you go to an ROH show. Sure he'll hear some swearing, but you hear that everywhere. It is an experience that is so much more personal than you'll ever get going to a WWE house show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So many good things happen to a 7 year old when you go to an ROH show. Sure he'll hear some swearing, but you hear that everywhere. It is an experience that is so much more personal than you'll ever get going to a WWE house show.

I am absolutely on this same line of thinking.

Of all the varied experiences I had with my soon-to-be 19 y/o, it's the pics from a TNA house show that are STILL on his dresser.

Not Disney pics, not concert pics, not PBR World Finals pics, not Monster Jam pics. It's him & AJ, him & Joe, him & EY, not all that far from that age.

And the reason that The New Day having success means more to him than just the characters is being the little guy standing along the security rail talking to (a then-younger & relatively unknown) Austin Creed during a cage malfunction at an NWA-Anarchy show before Creed helped bring down the house in what is still the best cage match I've ever seen in person.

In all his years, I've never once -- not a single time -- regretted taking him to anything. And we've both got a helluva lot of memories to show for the gambles I took.

[Suicane75]

I stand corrected.

[murrayyyyy]

I don't think he's going to hear anything he hasn't heard before. I mean he does live in Vegas and has classmates who's mother is a stripper. The shock value just isn't there for him anymore. And the setting is why I decided to take him as they still had seats in the gap where he doesn't have to look over anyone and will be 12 rows from the ring with some elevation (which is the back of the "arena" at Sam's Town.). He's sat ringside before once and didn't enjoy it at all as some 400lb guy was in front of him and he couldn't see the action on the other side of the ring.

Glad that the Hardy's are on the card now as that's another tag team he can check off his list.

[murrayyyyy]

So the WWE signs Kaii Hojo from Stardom and is going after Io Shirai also? Asian invasion versus the Horsewomen sounds more realistic now. I'm just not sure the Horsewomen can keep up after watching some matches of Hojo and Io today.

[CrescentMoonie]

So the WWE signs Kaii Hojo from Stardom and is going after Io Shirai also? Asian invasion versus the Horsewomen sounds more realistic now. I'm just not sure the Horsewomen can keep up after watching some matches of Hojo and Io today.

I think they could be carried and eventually catch up. Also, the size differential gives them an easy power vs speed formula to work with.

[CrescentMoonie]

Impact came up with a decent write off for the Hardy's. They showed an extended bit with the brothers sparring with a live kangaroo, then when they transported Decay was in their place with the belts. That's not too bad for something that was a hell of an issue to deal with.

[CrescentMoonie]

Reby Hardy's twitter rant today is must reading for one side of the Impact/Hardy contract saga.

[Suicane75]

Impact came up with a decent write off for the Hardy's. They showed an extended bit with the brothers sparring with a live kangaroo, then when they transported Decay was in their place with the belts. That's not too bad for something that was a hell of an issue to deal with.

Great. Now titles can change hands in the ether of the space time continuum? Killin the business.

[murrayyyyy]

ROH was tamer than a WWE event here but there were less guys trying to act like asses compared to a WWE event. PPV went well last night with the 6 man match with Kaz winning, Hardy-Bucks-RPG street fight and the Fallen Angle hitting 3 BMEs in about 10 seconds (which ended up being my kids favorite match) to win the title. He is also now a Cheeseburger mark. Pretty sure TK O'Ryan shattered his shin going for a moonsault and didn't seem to get over all the way and landed straight on the guardrail and knocked off the metal signage attached to the guardrail. His leg had to have hit about midway up the shin.

[CrescentMoonie]

ROH was tamer than a WWE event here but there were less guys trying to act like asses compared to a WWE event. PPV went well last night with the 6 man match with Kaz winning, Hardy-Bucks-RPG street fight and the Fallen Angle hitting 3 BMEs in about 10 seconds (which ended up being my kids favorite match) to win the title. He is also now a Cheeseburger mark. Pretty sure TK O'Ryan shattered his shin going for a moonsault and didn't seem to get over all the way and landed straight on the guardrail and knocked off the metal signage attached to the guardrail. His leg had to have hit about midway up the shin.

The only thing I've heard about O'Ryan was the he had to have his leg set and will probably need surgery. Not sure what that even means.

[murrayyyyy]

The only thing I've heard about O'Ryan was the he had to have his leg set and will probably need surgery. Not sure what that even means.

If you want to see it, here ya go...

ROH 15 anniversary tk'o Ryan broken shin - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=fJLeYUrjT4U)

The worst seats in the house looked like this last night.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17190959_10155041257753468_8536158365195524222_n.jpg?oh=78d8e1d2a421752c8b51c33eafc69ba6&oe=5969D67D

[CrescentMoonie]

I watched the PPV. I just haven't seen an official statement on the injury other than his own tweets about his leg having to be reset and the hospital staff being horrible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's just awesome as worst seats go.

[murrayyyyy]

That's just awesome as worst seats go.

The kid had the straight on isle seat and pretty much made it closer and closer and closer with every match to where he was at the front middle rail for the Bucks-Hardy match. I've always enjoyed a little elevation and the hard camera was just over our left shoulder.

It was a huge difference between this and the WWE house shows as it was even more wall to wall wrestling last night. There was a few times with some ring work (spring or board got loose after the 3D by Bubba and Briscoes) and then the obvious cleanup from tacks in the ring. I assume the TV taping will go just as quick tonight with Briscoes-Hardy's as the assumed main event. Assuming it's taped so they can work in commercials later.

[murrayyyyy]

You say you missed out on that cool 1980's 'rasslin. Don't worry, the WWE has got you covered.

southpaw regional wrestling - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=southpaw+regional+wrestling)

[molson]

Well if nobody else is going to say it.... Paige had a ton of personal videos and photos leaked today, including one of her banging Xavier Woods while Brad Maddox filmed.

I wonder if this is some kind of extortion thing.

[murrayyyyy]

Well if nobody else is going to say it.... Paige had a ton of personal videos and photos leaked today, including one of her banging Xavier Woods while Brad Maddox filmed.

I wonder if this is some kind of extortion thing.

Well if we want to get technical... Brad was taking pics from behind Paige with a camera while Xavier was doing the deed. So to quote Heenan I think...

"Who's the third man!" (odds are Prince Pretty).

Since Maddox is in most of them I'd almost assume the hack was on his end and not her end.

[IlliniCub]

I almost wouldn't be surprised if she was behind it, in an attempt to force WWE's hand to release her. There's all the Del Rio stuff, she's been back stage at other promotions tapings, and clearly isn't happy in the WWE. Also I don't think this will in any way hurt, and may help her drawability in Indie bookings or other promotions. But that's the conspiracy theorist in me talking.

[Neon_Chaos]

Based on the videos and pics, it appears that the phone belonged to Brad Maddox.

[Suicane75]

You say you missed out on that cool 1980's 'rasslin. Don't worry, the WWE has got you covered.

southpaw regional wrestling - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=southpaw+regional+wrestling)

They changed Sex to Tex. :(

Jerricho is friggin amazing as Clint Boski.

[Mota]

Yeah I saw those pics and they are pretty nasty. They pretty much desecrated the NXT Women's title.

[murrayyyyy]

They changed Sex to Tex. :(

Jerricho is friggin amazing as Clint Boski.

I'm just hoping they keep doing it long enough for one of the characters to enter the royal rumble.

[IlliniCub]

Also Season's 1 and 2 of Lucha Underground are available on Netflix as of a few days ago.

[molson]

(Image from RAW in spoiler tags for size)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7aJuoHX4AIJnoj.jpg:large

[CrescentMoonie]

Bad news for Jim Ross. Jan is apparently still touch and go right now.

Jim Ross reports his wife has been involved in a serious accident (http://www.cagesideseats.com/2017/3/21/14999748/jim-ross-reports-wife-involved-serious-accident-tweet-vespa-skull-fracture).

[CrescentMoonie]

Cornette inducting the R&R Express and Bischoff inducting DDP. Are they laying the groundwork for a couple of Vince's biggest adversaries to go into the HOF?

[murrayyyyy]

Cornette inducting the R&R Express and Bischoff inducting DDP. Are they laying the groundwork for a couple of Vince's biggest adversaries to go into the HOF?

(stolen from reddit)

Vince is planning to recreate the Red Wedding on the industry.

[CrescentMoonie]

Jan Ross dead at 55 (http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2017/3/22/15031278/jim-ross-wife-jan-dies-after-accident)

[BYU 14]

Jan Ross dead at 55 (http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2017/3/22/15031278/jim-ross-wife-jan-dies-after-accident)

Very sad

[molson]

WWE has been reportedly making a big push to by Ring of Honor from Sinclair, with things heating up in the last few weeks. The motivation is primarily the tape library (since so many of their stars had big runs there), but the WWE would also most likely shut the company down.

[CrescentMoonie]

WWE has been reportedly making a big push to by Ring of Honor from Sinclair, with things heating up in the last few weeks. The motivation is primarily the tape library (since so many of their stars had big runs there), but the WWE would also most likely shut the company down.

Interesting. I've heard that NXT might shut down with ROH taking their spot on the network.

[SirFozzie]

Holy shit. Not one match can be rated BELOW Great so far tonight.

[CrescentMoonie]

Holy shit. Not one match can be rated BELOW Great so far tonight.

I would put the first two at good to very good, and exactly what they needed to be. The next two matches were great. AOP has improved so much as the powerhouse team, and the tension between The Revival and DIY played into that perfectly. That was the match that most surprised me so far. Asuka is just so freaking talented and Ember Moon is getting rid of those bad indy habits in an extraordinarily quick time.

[murrayyyyy]

As much as I like Glorious I think the best match was the 3 way tag team. Sanity/10 does nothing for me. I guess Mcintyre is next up for Roode which gives them a chance to bring Nakamura up? Akuka just seems to be destined to stay down until the women's tournament where they can hand pick her rival to come up against (assume Bayley with the heel ending last night).

I think this is the best year that I've stayed away from spoilers so I can just enjoy the day. I think most the surprises will be and Mania Monday and Mania Tuesday so just 3 more days of avoiding any WWE news!

[CrescentMoonie]

Broken Ladder Match

[Neon_Chaos]

DELETE DELETE DELETE DELETE

[cthomer5000]

That is some legit 'HOLY SHIT' stuff there.

[PilotMan]

That is some legit 'HOLY SHIT' stuff there.

It got my attention, that's for sure.

[PilotMan]

Today I flew with a girl who's in training in the IWC in Pittsburgh. She said that Goldberg is miserable with the training that Vince has been making him do.

[CrescentMoonie]

That is some legit 'HOLY SHIT' stuff there.

It was rumored, even though the Hardy's names weren't on the future ROH dates they said they were, but I figured there was no way after they worked last night.

[CU Tiger]

DELETE DELETE DELETE DELETE

What are we deleting?
Spoilers are expected.

[PilotMan]

What are we deleting?
Spoilers are expected.

The simple answer is, it's complicated.

[CrescentMoonie]

Orton? Come on Vince, he's been boring for a decade.

Gee, I wonder who will beat him for it to break a record that nobody wants to see broken.

[SirFozzie]

That Orton-Wyatt match was.. something.

Something business exposing
Something slower then molasses going uphill in January
Something really fucking goofy.

[CrescentMoonie]

That Orton-Wyatt match was.. something.

Something business exposing
Something slower then molasses going uphill in January
Something really fucking goofy.

Their ability to screw up the Wyatt character over and over and over and over again is damn near impressive.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Today I flew with a girl who's in training in the IWC in Pittsburgh. She said that Goldberg is miserable with the training that Vince has been making him do.

Didn't Bill say basically that same thing on some podcast a couple of weeks ago?
(Just read the transcript 2-3 days ago, but I believe it was more like two weeks old) Maybe the new Edge & Christian one?

[PilotMan]

No heat in that at all.

[PilotMan]

Didn't Bill say basically that same thing on some podcast a couple of weeks ago?
(Just read the transcript 2-3 days ago, but I believe it was more like two weeks old) Maybe the new Edge & Christian one?

Not sure, no surprise, but he's probably done after tonight.

[SirFozzie]

Paul Heyman can distill a six month plodding storyline full of disappointments and make it into fucking gold.

[CrescentMoonie]

Goldberg's walk to the ring is going to take 73 minutes and it will still only be 38% as long as Taker's.

[SirFozzie]

That was the 1812 overture of matches. Nothing but cannon shots (finishers)

[Maple Leafs]

That was the 1812 overture of matches. Nothing but cannon shots (finishers)
As someone said on Twitter, it was a video game with the infinite specials cheat.

[Neon_Chaos]

What are we deleting?
Spoilers are expected.

I was just chanting with the crowd.

:D

[CrescentMoonie]

So glad to see JR looking and sounding good after such a rough week or two.

Desperately hoping they don't put Reigns over so that he and Brock are the only ones to beat Taker at Mania and use that as the excuse to put the belt back on Roman.

[kingfc22]

Time for the Taker's last hurrah. Win and walk off into the sunset. Finally....

[jbergey22]

Betting odds had Roman around -900

Brock Lesnar is -3250 and Bill Goldberg is +1350.
Roman Reigns is -900 and Undertaker is +675.
Randy Orton is -750 and Bray Wyatt is +450.
John Cena & Nikki Bella at -1975 and Miz & Maryse are +975.
Seth Rollins is -1750 and HHH is +850.
A.J. Styles is -1625 and Shane McMahon is +775.
Bayley is -1500 to keep the women's title with Sasha Banks and Charlotte both +1400 and Nia Jax +5500.
Kevin Owens is a -1750 favorite in the U.S. title match with Chris Jericho at +850.
Baron Corbin is -1750 to get his hand raised as a major favorite over Dean Ambrose at +850.
In the Raw ladder match, Enzo & Cass are favored at -175, with Gallows & Anderson at +168 and Sheamus & Cesaro at +1100.
Smackdown women's title: Naomi is a -420 winner to win the title. Carmella is +320, Alexa Bliss, Becky Lynch and Mickie James are +9500 and Natalya is +13500.

from f4online...Gotta send the fans home happy though right?

[CrescentMoonie]

Corbin and the ladder tag being the only ones to be wrong so far is disturbing. Sadly, Vince is so delusional these days that he probably thinks Reigns winning is sending the fans home despite the massive hatred for him.

[CrescentMoonie]

Inexcusable. Please die Vince.

[jbergey22]

Lame ending. No rational on why that was the Main Event in the first place.

When you have to Main Event a guy that wrestles 2-3 times a year against someone much of the fanbase cant stand without much of a storyline build you have to rethink your product.

I wouldnt know where to start at this point trying to book the product so it actually makes some sense.

Horseshit hot shot booking just screws with the fans and the performers.

[Neon_Chaos]

Taker's done, left his gear in the ring.

Makes sense for him to go out on his back to the future of the company.

Thanks for the memories.

[SirFozzie]

I know it's tradition for a wrestler to do the job in his final match... but I was hoping Taker would have been different.

Taker's old school though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know we don't do much hashtagging around here but, honestly, #ThankYouTaker is about all I know to say

[JonInMiddleGA]

Arash Markazi‏Verified account @ArashMarkazi 2h2 hours ago
More
The press box gave Jim Ross a standing ovation upon his return. His call of the main event will be heard in the press box.

[Neon_Chaos]

I know it's tradition for a wrestler to do the job in his final match... but I was hoping Taker would have been different.

Taker's old school though.

I do not envy Reigns at all. To be given the spot of retiring the most respected member of the roster is a huge honor and a terrible burden.

Taker has some semblance of creative control, and he would not have gone out for someone he did not respect.

[PilotMan]

I do not envy Reigns at all. To be given the spot of retiring the most respected member of the roster is a huge honor and a terrible burden.

Taker has some semblance of creative control, and he would not have gone out for someone he did not respect.

My thoughts exactly. I have to feel like he could've picked anyone he wanted, and that's how he decided to settle it.

[Mota]

Great PPV if it would've ended at 11pm. Unfortunately everything after that was a disapointment. The main event especially was horrid. More shoving Reigns down our throats even though we have rejected it for 2 years now. Terrible stuff.

[jbergey22]

Agree!

I dont dislike Reigns at all. Hes a decent performer. I just dont understand why the company doesnt know how to organically create stars anymore. Hogan, Rock, Austin all got over as stars because the fans wanted it. Because the superpush worked with Hogan the WWE thinks he can work with everyone.

Right now the fans want to get behind AJ, Miz, Wyatt. Booking 101. Give them a story the fans will follow and care about and let them come out of the story with more momentum.

All this lets get a performer over and give the rub to someone that fans have no interest in is just crazy. Lesnar didnt need UT to get over and beating UT is not going to help Reigns get over(it just falls right into the same category of why the fans puke on Reigns in the first place).

[CrescentMoonie]

Reigns is getting pushed because he was never on the indies. It's that simple. Vince still wants to pretend that he grows the biggest stars and is smarter than everyone. Reigns is a solid heel, who could go on a face run if they let it happen organically, but he is neither a good wrestler or good worker right now.

AJ being stuck with Shane is asinine.

Miz and Maryse losing to Tit and Tits is sad at this point in his career, especially with the way he's improved his character the last year.

Wyatt is being completely wasted because Vince literally doesn't understand the character at all. Lose the supernatural crap and have him be the crazy occult psychopath that controls others and is freakishly dangerous himself.

I'll agree that was a good PPV, probably a B or B+, for the first 5-6 matches. Then the A/V club hit the bong too hard and Randy Boreton was given his eleventy billionth title run that nobody cares about and only Brock-Goldberg was decent the rest of the way.

Think about that. The video game match where they just hit their best moves for 6 minutes was the best thing in the last 4 matches of the biggest show of the year. Just inexplicable. They've killed every freaking bit of momentum and goodwill that Smackdown had developed when it passed by Raw in the ratings for a week or two and made it just as bad as the red show now.

[murrayyyyy]

Everyone remember when the Shield was the next big thing? Preshow, 47 year old guy and his wife in a 4 year story line and the burden of retiring a 52 year old guy who should have left a couple of years ago. People complained that being under the Shield was holding them back and they are all now in meaningless feuds.

Can I ask why people love Wyatt? I've never thought to myself, I hope this Wyatt match goes 10+ mins.

Quick thoughts on the show? I'd give it a B as there weren't a ton of missed spots and some matches felt rushed on a 7 hour card. Just wondering what the 3 highlights of the night were? Hardy's, Shane missing the shooting star and Roman looking like he was doing a job he didn't want to do.

[CrescentMoonie]

Wyatt seemed much better in NXT. He's a big guy who can work fast and slow, but I think they've got the character in such a bad place that he doesn't know what to do anymore. The supernatural crap is ruining the character and hindering the matches. It also doesn't help that he was stuck with Randy Orton.

I never got the argument to break up the Shield. I never heard a single person complain about them being a group. I never heard a single voice complaining that they were getting stale or needed to be broken up. Not one.

They pulled that trigger way too early, just like they did with screwing with the Wyatt Family. Both of those had another year in them, at least, but Vince hates anything other than singles wrestling at this point. The Shield lasted barely 18 months. The Wyatt's got 14 months on their initial run. Then they were slapped back together, then given a new member, and then disbanded again with the Randy Orton crap as the impetus.

Neither group was really given a chance to even build to their blowup.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I never got the argument to break up the Shield. I never heard a single person complain about them being a group. I never heard a single voice complaining that they were getting stale or needed to be broken up. Not one.

Ambrose himself from right after the breakup, about the reasoning they were given, from an appearance on Jericho's podcast: it was because there wasn't much left for us to do, we had beaten everybody.

http://www.inquisitr.com/1677917/wwe-news-dean-ambrose-tells-the-story-behind-the-shields-breakup/

[CrescentMoonie]

Ambrose himself from right after the breakup, about the reasoning they were given, from an appearance on Jericho's podcast: it was because there wasn't much left for us to do, we had beaten everybody.

WWE News: Dean Ambrose Tells The Story Behind The Shield's Breakup (http://www.inquisitr.com/1677917/wwe-news-dean-ambrose-tells-the-story-behind-the-shields-breakup/)

I was thinking from a fan perspective. I don't remember any clamoring for a breakup at all. In fact, I feel like most of the anticipation was for the potential confrontation and feud with the Wyatts. I know the sheets were talking about the breakup, and who would get slotted where, but I'm not even sure that they were in favor of it more than just reporting what management was going to do.

[murrayyyyy]

I was thinking from a fan perspective. I don't remember any clamoring for a breakup at all. In fact, I feel like most of the anticipation was for the potential confrontation and feud with the Wyatts. I know the sheets were talking about the breakup, and who would get slotted where, but I'm not even sure that they were in favor of it more than just reporting what management was going to do.

Think they had a short feud with the Wyatt @ EC but like every Wyatt feud it only had a 30 day shelf life. They should have gotten the long build like we did with KO-Jericho or even Bray-Orton.

[CrescentMoonie]

JR signed a 2 year deal with WWE for an undisclosed specific number of dates.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was thinking from a fan perspective. I don't remember any clamoring for a breakup at all.

I'd probably call that a 'sort of" kind of thing.

"Smarts" of course knew the breakup was just a matter of when, not if. The breakup gave us a bigger Ambrose sooner than we would have gotten IMO, and that's a plus. The big minus is, of course, that it gave us Reigns shoved down people's throats.

(and, strictly, FTR ... I'm not dinging you at all here. I'm just making conversation 'cause the topic is decent to good)

[murrayyyyy]

I'd probably call that a 'sort of" kind of thing.

"Smarts" of course knew the breakup was just a matter of when, not if. The breakup gave us a bigger Ambrose sooner than we would have gotten IMO, and that's a plus. The big minus is, of course, that it gave us Reigns shoved down people's throats.

(and, strictly, FTR ... I'm not dinging you at all here. I'm just making conversation 'cause the topic is decent to good)

Didn't we get that weird title period where Ambrose held the US title for a year but never defended it with the Shield? Odds are my views are skewed reading /r/squaredcircle with too many smarks. It just seemed like everyone had their "one" who would be the breakout star of the group so like you said, the breakup was bound to happen.

Is anyone excited about call-up night/s? I assume we get two nights of it with Smackdown being live but if it's not Nakamura or The Revial, I'm not sure I care because they will be destined for mid-card jobbers it seems like.

[CrescentMoonie]

Seems like Nakamura is the obvious choice on the Smackdown side, hopefully jumping right into a program with Styles as a reward for AJ having to work with Shane. Asuka has been working SD house shows, but Takeover plus Naomi coming back seems to point towards her being brought up later. I really hope DIY and Revival come up to Smackdown as well.

No idea who fits on Raw at this point unless they go the Asuka route there in a few months or one of the tag teams tonight.

Also, where does a draft fit into things this year?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is anyone excited about call-up night/s? I assume we get two nights of it with Smackdown being live but if it's not Nakamura or The Revial, I'm not sure I care because they will be destined for mid-card jobbers it seems like.

Hell, if the dirt sheet stuff I've seen in the past couple weeks is right, some of the call ups are going to be (essentially) mid-card jobbers from NXT anyway. (yes Elias Samson, I'm talking about you ... and Mojo f'n Rawley too)

I get trying to keep NXT viable and all but if your ceiling has been low there, I have a tough time thinking it's going to be much higher on Raw/Smackdown.

[CrescentMoonie]

I get trying to keep NXT viable and all but if your ceiling has been low there, I have a tough time thinking it's going to be much higher on Raw/Smackdown.

I think the only exception to this is Dillinger. He's just so over with the core fanbase, and his gimmick seems friendly enough to the casuals that I think he's got upper midcard potential if they'll do anything at all with him.

[murrayyyyy]

Seems like Nakamura is the obvious choice on the Smackdown side, hopefully jumping right into a program with Styles as a reward for AJ having to work with Shane. Asuka has been working SD house shows, but Takeover plus Naomi coming back seems to point towards her being brought up later. I really hope DIY and Revival come up to Smackdown as well.

No idea who fits on Raw at this point unless they go the Asuka route there in a few months or one of the tag teams tonight.

Also, where does a draft fit into things this year?

Hoping DIY comes up with Roode but I know Sanity is the faction that HHH wants called up eventually because they are his baby.

I'm not sure they end up doing a draft as I see them going more of the "trade' route with all the free agents that RAW has gotten while Smackdown has got none.

[murrayyyyy]

I think the only exception to this is Dillinger. He's just so over with the core fanbase, and his gimmick seems friendly enough to the casuals that I think he's got upper midcard potential if they'll do anything at all with him.

I can't stand him but he seems to be the smarky choice right now. Any show you go to, people are chanting 10 on every count.

[RainMaker]

I thought Mania was OK. There is really never a bad one but it wasn't that great either. There didn't seem to be much heat going into any of the matches outside of Rollins/HHH.

Loved the tag match and the Hardy's return was great. HHH/Rollins was good. Brock/Goldberg was better than I expected.

The show however is just too long. Maybe they should move away from making it so everyone gets to appear on the show.

[CrescentMoonie]

The show however is just too long. Maybe they should move away from making it so everyone gets to appear on the show.

I've heard either tell people they aren't getting a Mania payday or split it into Saturday and Sunday. I actually kind of like the two night approach.

[RainMaker]

I also don't understand the Reigns fascination WWE has. I think he'd make a great heel right now. But he's just not a good babyface and the fans don't seem to be taking to him after years of trying.

Raw could use a good heel too now that Balor is back.

[RainMaker]

Also Stephanie looked incredible last night.

[Maple Leafs]

Horseshit hot shot booking just screws with the fans and the performers.
I can understand a lot of the complaints about the product, but one thing you really can't accuse them of is hot shot booking. These days, everything is planned out so far in advance that it feels like nothing ever matters, because everything is just the start of the next chapter. Hell, half the reason they had Reigns win is that they've already decided on next year's main event.

I'm all for doing some advance planning, and nobody wants to go back to the Russo days, but you're doing live TV. You're allowed to switch it up and surprise people every now and then.

Ah well. At least we've got tonight's Raw, aka "the only one all year where anything is allowed to actually happen".

[CrescentMoonie]

So...video reminding people that Reigns was shoved down their throats again turns into tribute to Taker that gets the Raw crowd cheering for Taker, and they didn't foresee the Roman Sucks chant growing out of it? Then Reigns enters to massive boos but he's not a heel? Vince needs to be put down.

And no, Michael Cole, people aren't booing Reigns because last night might have been Taker's last, they're booing him because he's a bad wrestler, mediocre worker, and is being shoved down their throats despite their complete rejection of his character.

[jbergey22]

I can understand a lot of the complaints about the product, but one thing you really can't accuse them of is hot shot booking.

We will just have to agree to disagree. They use the 3-4 week build to build a match. Rarely do they set anything up as good as Jericho/Owens anymore. I am guessing Jericho was the creative behind that idea because WWE doesnt think at that level anymore.

And when a character(Orton) burns down the compound of another character(Wyatt), the character needs to get his redemption or the character should die.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And when a character(Orton) burns down the compound of another character(Wyatt), the character needs to get his redemption or the character should die.

Eh, the face/heel dynamic of that was/is so screwed up that I'm not sure what move qualifies as comeuppance for whom.

That whole deal just felt to me like a failed attempt to be "edgy", one that got farther off the rails as it went.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So...video reminding people that Reigns was shoved down their throats again turns into tribute to Taker that gets the Raw crowd cheering for Taker, and they didn't foresee the Roman Sucks chant growing out of it? Then Reigns enters to massive boos but he's not a heel? Vince needs to be put down.

I haven't see the bit but my kid mentioned tonight's Raw segment. He said it felt like the actual heel turn ... if they don't change their mind about doing it anyway.

[Carman Bulldog]

I'm not in the Roman Reigns can't work camp, because I've seen him have some very entertaining matches with the right opponents. I always thought that it was wrong to fault him as a performer when I feel it is more the way he has been booked that is to blame. With that said, I feel like he was somewhat exposed last night. People always rip on his limited move set and that was no more evident than last night's match.

I get that Brock also only does a few moves, but Suplex City is still over huge as is the F5. Roman's spear gets a decent response (although I would say Rhyno's Gore was arguably more over, as was Goldberg's spear) but the Superman Punch needs to go.

[CrescentMoonie]

Joe's entrance and attire these days make him look more and more like Plus Size Taz every week.

[IlliniCub]

The thing about Roman is, in unscripted interviews and shoots where he is being himself he really comes across great. When writers give him stupid lines like Suffering succotash and push him down the fans throats of course it's awful. Not giving guys the creative freedom with their characters that wrestlers have had in the past is really killing the product.

[RainMaker]

Roman is fine in the ring. His character sucks though. Best description I've heard is he's AC Slater from Saved by the Bell.

Just make him a mercenary badass who is a heel. Fans want to boo him and he's great playing that role.

[murrayyyyy]

I'm not in the Roman Reigns can't work camp, because I've seen him have some very entertaining matches with the right opponents. I always thought that it was wrong to fault him as a performer when I feel it is more the way he has been booked that is to blame. With that said, I feel like he was somewhat exposed last night. People always rip on his limited move set and that was no more evident than last night's match.

I get that Brock also only does a few moves, but Suplex City is still over huge as is the F5. Roman's spear gets a decent response (although I would say Rhyno's Gore was arguably more over, as was Goldberg's spear) but the Superman Punch needs to go.

In defense of Roman, he was in the ring with a 300 lb sack of shit that couldn't land more than 5 moves at the Wrestlemania the year before in a hour long match. I don't know what he is suppose to do in that situation.

I thought it was great to let him just go out there and embrace the hate like Cena had done before. It's the same build they gave Jericho when he came back. Roman shouldn't say more than 5 words for every show until Bad Blood. Have him come out and kill someone at Payback & Extreme Rules. People would get behind a Roman who just beats people up.

Also his Superman Punch is more believable than a fireman's carry or the people's elbow. He should be using it like Stone Cold used the Stunner and just Superman Punch anyone who gets in his way (heel or face) every possible moment.

[murrayyyyy]

I haven't see the bit but my kid mentioned tonight's Raw segment. He said it felt like the actual heel turn ... if they don't change their mind about doing it anyway.

He had Vickie Guerrero heat last night. He pointed to the palm of his hand letting them know he had them where he wanted them.

[Neuqua]

I thought what Roman did last night was actually perfect.

[murrayyyyy]

Quick summary of Wyatt from Uproxx:

Remember when Bray Wyatt brainwashed Daniel Bryan, and then it was revealed that Bryan was fine and Wyatt got beaten up? It was cool, but Wyatt kinda looked like a dork. Remember when Wyatt kidnapped Kane and the Undertaker and “stole their souls” and got lightning powers, and then later Kane and Undertaker just showed up like “YOU DIDN’T DO ANYTHING” and beat him up? Remember the Roman Reigns feud where he just got beaten up all the time? Remember Cena trucking him at WrestleMania 30? Remember literally every time Bray Wyatt has tried to do something psychologically spooky or threatening to ANYONE more important than R-Truth? Nothing happens. It sucks, the matches suck, and we move on to the next time.

[Maple Leafs]

He said it felt like the actual heel turn ... if they don't change their mind about doing it anyway.
Here's a theory: Reigns is already a heel. He gets booed every night. Sneers at fans. Tons of heat. The guy's basically getting the Cena vs Punk MitB reaction, but all the time. He even justed worked the Mania main event against a face. That's a heel, right?

The only reason he isn't considered a heel is that the WWE presents him as a face, pretending he's being cheered and sometimes putting him up against nominal heel characters.

Maybe they're doing that because they're honestly stupid and still think he's a face. We certainly can't rule that out. But maybe they've figured out that it's the only way to get real heel heat on anyone these days. Look at all their other heels -- Styles, Lesnar, Wyatt, Miz, HHH. They all get cheered, all the time. Of the top guys, Owens might be the only one who still feels heel-ish, and that might be stretching it.

Wrestling is about making the fans hate a guy and want to pay money to see him lose. But how do you get a heel over today, when the fans are contrarian about everything, often just for the sake of it? By pretending that you think he's a face. It's actually kind of brilliant.

That's the theory I'm going with. (Although yeah, the "they're idiots" version makes sense too.)

[CrescentMoonie]

Luke Harper looks more and more like Bruiser Brody every day.

Crowd crapped on Orton enough that they clearly muted the sound.

[Neon_Chaos]

Here's a theory: Reigns is already a heel. He gets booed every night. Sneers at fans. Tons of heat. The guy's basically getting the Cena vs Punk MitB reaction, but all the time. He even justed worked the Mania main event against a face. That's a heel, right?

The only reason he isn't considered a heel is that the WWE presents him as a face, pretending he's being cheered and sometimes putting him up against nominal heel characters.

Maybe they're doing that because they're honestly stupid and still think he's a face. We certainly can't rule that out. But maybe they've figured out that it's the only way to get real heel heat on anyone these days. Look at all their other heels -- Styles, Lesnar, Wyatt, Miz, HHH. They all get cheered, all the time. Of the top guys, Owens might be the only one who still feels heel-ish, and that might be stretching it.

Wrestling is about making the fans hate a guy and want to pay money to see him lose. But how do you get a heel over today, when the fans are contrarian about everything, often just for the sake of it? By pretending that you think he's a face. It's actually kind of brilliant.

That's the theory I'm going with. (Although yeah, the "they're idiots" version makes sense too.)

That's what Triple H basically said.

http://sportsillustrated.com.ph/US/extra-mustard/2017/03/27/wwe-triple-h-paul-levesque-nxt-cruiserweight-brands


Levesque is tasked with manufacturing an organic brand, which is an enormous undertaking. Take the Roman Reigns conundrum as an example: The handsome, muscular, 6'4" Samoan is vociferously booed by WWE audiences, and there are constant demands from the fans to turn Reigns into a villain. Levesque has a different understanding of the situation.

“People can look at Roman Reigns and say, ‘The failed attempt that is Roman Reigns,’ but Roman Reigns sells tickets,” said Levesque. “Roman Reigns gets one of the loudest reactions every night, whether that reaction is a boo or whether that reaction is a cheer. The fans who say, ‘I don’t understand why they don’t turn Roman Reigns heel!’ Isn’t he already?

“If you believe what you believe, and you’re saying, ‘How can they not turn him heel? There is 70 percent of the crowd booing him out of the building!’ If that’s your belief, then isn’t he already the biggest heel we have? If 70 percent of that crowd is booing him, then he’s a heel. We’re just presenting him to you in a different way that makes you hate him.”

As much as Levesque is reimagining WWE, the internet has changed the entire business of pro wrestling.

“The internet has changed the world,” said Levesque. “We are the most opinionated people in the world now. You can find someone who will agree with you no matter what you think. You just go on the internet and, if you look hard enough, you’ll find someone who agrees with you. Gone is the day that everybody loves this one character, gone is the day that everybody hates this character. If you make a bad guy, there will be a group of people who love that character. He’s Darth Vader, he’s the bad guy, and they’ll love every evil thing he does. If you make a good guy, there are people who will love him, but there is the same group of people who will hate him. The fact of the matter is everybody will look at John Cena and say, ‘John Cena has consistently been this ‘Super Cena’ character and how can they not hear that half this arena hates him?’ You know what we hear? Tickets selling.

“I spoke with John in 2004 when I was going to work with him at WrestleMania, and he was a little bothered by the fact he was getting booed. I said to him, ‘Dude, it’s sold out. What do you care? You are the Yankees and the Red Sox in the same game.’ You cannot dictate to people anymore.”

[Neon_Chaos]

The above makes sense. Which means boos and cheers are currency that the WWE likes.

Silence and crowd ambivalence is what will provoke WWE to shake things up.

[Carman Bulldog]

I don't buy it. Unless the argument is that booking has absolutely nothing to with it and wrestler alignment has been completely re-classified to simply be defined as...

Face = Guy the crowd cheers for
Heel = Guy the crowd boos

I would argue that by definition a Heel is someone who is villainous in nature, and this can be reflected through his actions, such as cheating, insulting the fans, sneak attacks on other wrestlers and a myriad of other actions.

Fans generally want to see the heel get his comeuppance, and that eventually should come. By this new definition, Roman has been a heel since at least Royal Rumble 2015. We are still seemingly waiting on his comeuppance.

There is also the general idea that you send the fans home happy from your biggest event. We spent the first 30+ years of Wrestlemania's with the face winning 90% of the time and now we go back-to-back (to back?) heels with Reigns the past two years (and Rollins before that).

I mean, by their definition, X-Pac was a great heel and the reactions he was getting were excellent, when most people would classify X-Pac Heat as a bad thing.

[CrescentMoonie]

Okay, Miz and Maryse were awesome with Miz's voice sounding oddly like Obama, and the shock intro of Nakamura there was epic. That pop was close to the Hardy's pop at WM.

[Maple Leafs]

I would argue that by definition a Heel is someone who is villainous in nature, and this can be reflected through his actions, such as cheating, insulting the fans, sneak attacks on other wrestlers and a myriad of other actions.

See, I'd say that definition died twenty years ago when Austin was stunning announcers, women and referees while flipping off the crowd and getting pushed as the face of the company. (Edit: Followed by Kurt Angle telling everyone to be honest and have integrity and getting nuclear heel heat for it.)


By this new definition, Roman has been a heel since at least Royal Rumble 2015.

I'm not saying this has been the plan all along. I think they were legitimately trying to get him over as a traditional face for a long time. But maybe they've changed course now, and this all leads to the fans desperately wanting Brock to destroy him at Summer Slam or Mania or wherever.

[dubb93]

Roman Reigns is in an odd place where large amounts of children love him and their parents are buying up his merchandise (Meltzer says he sells more than anyone else on the roster) while adults seem to flat out hate him. His reactions generally don't even get to the cute 50/50 place that Cena finds himself in. Generally he just gets large amounts of heat.

[PilotMan]

Roman Reigns is in an odd place where large amounts of children love him and their parents are buying up his merchandise (Meltzer says he sells more than anyone else on the roster) while adults seem to flat out hate him. His reactions generally don't even get to the cute 50/50 place that Cena finds himself in. Generally he just gets large amounts of heat.

Yeah, but didn't Cena have that exact same fan (heat/love) base 15ish years ago? My 13yr old loves Roman. His character could use some refreshing, but he's going to be a guy for a long time. I just don't think they really know what he is. It's in the blood. He's no Rocky, but I think it'll work itself out long term.

[Carman Bulldog]

See, I'd say that definition died twenty years ago when Austin was stunning announcers, women and referees while flipping off the crowd and getting pushed as the face of the company. (Edit: Followed by Kurt Angle telling everyone to be honest and have integrity and getting nuclear heel heat for it.)

I get what you're saying, but even Austin underwent a large transition in the way that he was being booked, and arguably the change in booking was based on how the crowd reacted to him. I'm not saying that the crowd reaction can't come first (in fact, there are many times where it should and does), just that there should be a tweak in delivery.

My other concern with the status quo is that the booing the other night seemed to be a "get off my screen" type reaction, more so than a "I really dislike this guy and want to see him get his comeuppance" reaction. That's a dangerous path to travel down.

[CrescentMoonie]

My other concern with the status quo is that the booing the other night seemed to be a "get off my screen" type reaction, more so than a "I really dislike this guy and want to see him get his comeuppance" reaction. That's a dangerous path to travel down.

Exactly this. It feels more like X-Pac heat than true heel heat. I think the biggest miscalculation WWE is making is that the WM crowd is the outlier when they're probably the core of their audience.

[molson]

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat belongs to those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually either by being "held back," or by having success outside the WWE.

[Racer]

I get what you're saying, but even Austin underwent a large transition in the way that he was being booked, and arguably the change in booking was based on how the crowd reacted to him. I'm not saying that the crowd reaction can't come first (in fact, there are many times where it should and does), just that there should be a tweak in delivery.

My other concern with the status quo is that the booing the other night seemed to be a "get off my screen" type reaction, more so than a "I really dislike this guy and want to see him get his comeuppance" reaction. That's a dangerous path to travel down.

Is it possible some of the booing is coming from casual fans joining in for fun? I'm going to Smackdown in a couple of weeks as it'll be in Louisville and consider myself a fairly casual fan. If Reigns end up getting traded/drafted to Smackdown I plan on booing him since I think it's kind of amusing he draws the heat the he gets even though I'm relatively indifferent to him.

[CrescentMoonie]

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat comes from those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually by being "held back." So it's really no surprise the WWE uses the authority angles so often.

If your company books itself as the lead heel for 20 years, what other outcome would you expect?

[molson]

If your company books itself as the lead heel for 20 years, what other outcome would you expect?

It's hard to envision a 2017, with the internet and a more knowledgeable fanbase, where fans hate great wrestlers like Kevin Owens and AJ Styles just because they are scripted to do dastardly things. ECW recognized this in their booking 20+ years ago.

[CrescentMoonie]

It's hard to envision a 2017, with the internet and a more knowledgeable fanbase, where fans hate great wrestlers like Kevin Owens and AJ Styles just because they are scripted to do dastardly things. ECW recognized this in their booking 20+ years ago.

And it was always losing money before finally going out of business.

Take guys like Styles and Owens, slot them in as a clear face vs heel dynamic, and watch them get the crowd to do what they want. Hell, Owens vs Jericho just did this with the crowd very clearly on Jericho's side. Neville's heel turn has been okay, but it really took off with Aries positioned as the face that fans actually like enough to boo Neville.

There can be tweeners, certainly, but we have examples right now of guys who have captured fans enough to get real heat when paired with faces fans actually want to cheer. WWE struggles mightily in presenting faces in a way that appeals to more than just the kiddie portion of their audience. Get that right and you'll have heels that get real heat again.

[jbergey22]

Is it possible some of the booing is coming from casual fans joining in for fun? I'm going to Smackdown in a couple of weeks as it'll be in Louisville and consider myself a fairly casual fan. If Reigns end up getting traded/drafted to Smackdown I plan on booing him since I think it's kind of amusing he draws the heat the he gets even though I'm relatively indifferent to him.

I think this is a big part of it.

The WWE is the main heel. Anything that WWE wants to push the fanbase has pushback against. Perhaps, the bookers should pick up on this and work it into more storylines.

Start burying Roman and he will be a fan favorite.

[molson]

And it was always losing money before finally going out of business.
.

So did all of the territories. But the most successfully financial periods of the WWF and WCW looked a lot more like ECW than the AWA or Jim Crockett promotions.

I don't think heel v. face dynamics are obsolete. They can definitely work well on a case-by-case basis. I just think things are more fluid now and a company has to take into account how knowledgeable the fans are.

I think if Roman actually turned heel he'd get a huge babyface reaction. And that'd be OK. But I think they'll be more subtle and start booking him more often against babyfaces, like they putting him in the Mania main event against the Undertaker. Just like how the WWE didn't shy away from using superbabyface Cena against RVD in the ECW arena, or against CM Punk at Money in the Bank. They knew he'd get booed, just like they know Roman is going to get booed, but that anger can lead to compelling matches like those two.

And does Kevin Owens really get a lot of heel heat? I don't watch the TV show all the time, but usually I seem him get cheered. I'm pretty sure I've seen the fans cheer him when he directly insult them. That happened a lot with Jericho in his recent heel run too. He was getting cheered everywhere even though he was helping the heel champion cheat to win. His character was just so entertaining.

[jbergey22]

So did all of the territories. But the most successfully financial periods of the WWF and WCW looked a lot more like ECW than the AWA or Jim Crockett promotions.

I don't think heel v. face dynamics are obsolete. They can definitely work well on a case-by-case basis. I just think things are more fluid now and a company has to take into account how knowledgeable the fans are.

I think if Roman actually turned heel he'd get a huge babyface reaction. And that'd be OK. But I think they'll be more subtle and start booking him more often against babyfaces, like they putting him in the Mania main event against the Undertaker. Just like how the WWE didn't shy away from using superbabyface Cena against RVD in the ECW arena, or against CM Punk at Money in the Bank. They knew he'd get booed, just like they know Roman is going to get booed, but that anger can lead to compelling matches like those two.

Todays WWE just moves too fast. Quit watching for a couple months and you have no idea what is going on. Plus these matchups happen so often they dont have a "special" feel about them. They have also ruined "finishing" moves by having them kick out so many times at PPVs. It is still interesting to see certain performers and see who is being pushed but as for trying to portray it as a sport is completely gone.

I still think if they saved matches and had more squashes(in which the announcers hype storylines/wrestlers) and didnt need to have all these 50/50 matchups(which really arent because most fans know who is being pushed) the product itself would be better. If Dolph won 90 percent of his RAW matches he would be considered a threat against anyone at a PPV. Since he loses all the time on RAW he is not considered a legit threat on any PPV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is it possible some of the booing is coming from casual fans joining in for fun?

That's certainly where Kurt Angle seemed to be Monday night ... though how long it takes for the nostalgia rub to wear off is still up in the air.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And does Kevin Owens really get a lot of heel heat?

I felt like he got it once he turned on Jericho at the Friendship Celebration. Prior to that I agree that he was getting face pops regardless of heel'ish actions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

and had more squashes(in which the announcers hype storylines/wrestlers)

Now that's something I have no desire to see return. I struggle to get through squashes for all but the most impressive talent, even when I know there's perfectly good character development reason for one in some cases.

It's hard for me to set a hard dividing line on whether Wrestler X is perceived as having no chance because of Y amount of losses OR if it's because a lot of the fan base has a pretty good notion of how booking works and therefore knows who is likely to go over more often than not.

I mean, in theory, a bunch of 50-50 guys should mean we have coin toss expectations in their matches. And even a long winning streak (to build momentum for someone going up against a next-level-higher opponent) would telegraph certain expectations as well.

[SirFozzie]

I mean, look at James Ellsworth. People actually went nuts for him when he pulled off the "win" over AJ Styles.

[jbergey22]

Now that's something I have no desire to see return. I struggle to get through squashes for all but the most impressive talent, even when I know there's perfectly good character development reason for one in some cases.

It's hard for me to set a hard dividing line on whether Wrestler X is perceived as having no chance because of Y amount of losses OR if it's because a lot of the fan base has a pretty good notion of how booking works and therefore knows who is likely to go over more often than not.

I mean, in theory, a bunch of 50-50 guys should mean we have coin toss expectations in their matches. And even a long winning streak (to build momentum for someone going up against a next-level-higher opponent) would telegraph certain expectations as well.

The point behind it would be that instead of seeing Kevin Owens vs Dolph Ziggler on RAW 15 times in which KO wins 12 of their matches and now they have a short 1-2 month feud about something non sports related and have a PPV match that very few will actually care about, to actually save this match and have a legit feud in which the outcome is up in the air. I understand people dont like watching squash matches but if you use them to build the story and build up perceived talent of the main roster it would create better PPVs and better matchups.

Im not saying go all squash like WWF mid to late 80s but use the squash to build up the momentum of wrestlers that need it and advance storylines that way. Even keeping wrestlers out of the ring for awhile so they can tweak the character would help with perceived talent.

When we see the same matchups on RAW as well do the PPVs it doesnt really make the PPV matchups seem all the important.

[CrescentMoonie]

Stroman and Jax are evidence of how squash matches can still serve a purpose. You can't do it all the time, and you do have to be wise about who you put in those spots, but those matches established some character for Braun and Nia that has certainly helped them connect with the fans more quickly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

When we see the same matchups on RAW as well do the PPVs it doesnt really make the PPV matchups seem all the important.

Since I'm probably paying more for Raw (based on hours watched versus my total Dish Network bill) than I'm paying for WWE Network ... I'm not sure how much PPV really means anymore.

I want good matches, period. Raw, Smackdown, PPV, wherever.

I'd be totally fine with 3-4 big events a year & blowing off the rest of the "PPV" calendar I think.

[CrescentMoonie]

Since I'm probably paying more for Raw (based on hours watched versus my total Dish Network bill) than I'm paying for WWE Network ... I'm not sure how much PPV really means anymore.

I want good matches, period. Raw, Smackdown, PPV, wherever.

I'd be totally fine with 3-4 big events a year & blowing off the rest of the "PPV" calendar I think.

I wonder how close we are to that? WWE isn't on DirecTV PPV anymore. If the other providers decide to ditch them then what's the point of the current PPV schedule? Rumble, Mania, Summerslam, Survivor Series, and that's about it as major events would be fine if the revenue is already there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wonder how close we are to that? WWE isn't on DirecTV PPV anymore. If the other providers decide to ditch them then what's the point of the current PPV schedule? Rumble, Mania, Summerslam, Survivor Series, and that's about it as major events would be fine if the revenue is already there.

This is from last year.
http://www.pwtorch.com/site/2016/05/10/wwe-q1-2016-ppv-revenue-nearing-extinction/

And this
http://www.pwtorch.com/site/2016/07/28/wwe-q2-2016-wwe-still-reporting-ppv-revenue-plus-three-year-trend/

2014 Q1 & Q2 PPV revenue: $37.3m
2016 Q1 & Q2 PPV revenue: $8.0m

[RainMaker]

I think the problem with WWE is there is too much TV time to fill. How do you build up a good feud without guys touching for a couple months when they have to be on TV every week? They either need much more talent on the roster and give guys every other week off or cut back on the amount of programming they offer (which will never happen).

[cthomer5000]

Roman Reigns is in an odd place where large amounts of children love him and their parents are buying up his merchandise (Meltzer says he sells more than anyone else on the roster) while adults seem to flat out hate him. His reactions generally don't even get to the cute 50/50 place that Cena finds himself in. Generally he just gets large amounts of heat.

Yep, he sucks. I think the actual person is a solid wrestler and probably can be effective on the microphone, but he has so many huge issues as a character:

1. His actions are often very heelish, but he's not positioned as a heel by the announcers or show.
2. He really only ever comes across as "smirking douche" when delivering his promos
3. The booking is just so forceful - it's 0% organic. WWE's mindset seems to be "The crowd will love him because we'll force them to" instead of "We'll push this guy because the crowd can't seem to get enough of him."
4. They have just continually booked him to be laughably overpowered in big situations - and if the rumors are true about their long-term planning it's only going to get worse.

It seems like WWE is constantly doubling down at this point, they're willing to feed anyone to him in the hopes he will finally get over.

Honestly if they just turned him heel I think a lot of the current booing would change to cheers almost overnight. He seems way more suited to it. I think the concern backstage is probably "If we make him heel - who is our top face?" With Cena being more of a part-timer now, there's a void to fill at the top.

[murrayyyyy]

I think the problem with WWE is there is too much TV time to fill. How do you build up a good feud without guys touching for a couple months when they have to be on TV every week? They either need much more talent on the roster and give guys every other week off or cut back on the amount of programming they offer (which will never happen).

31 guys and 10 women on the RAW roster and you need more people(not counting the 20 cruiserweights)? 32/8 are on Smackdown. Every week Smackdown only has 3-4 matches. The problem is they don't want to develop mid-card story lines because they want to control who you root for. Remember when Fandango was hotter than the sun? They tease Sandow by giving him the MIB only to get squashed by Cena.

It's easy to keep guys away from each other between PPVs if you used the entire roster correctly. How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

[JonInMiddleGA]

How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

"but tag teams don't put butts in seats & don't sell merch ... not like Rrrrrrrrroman Rrrrrrrrreigns"

-- hypothetical VKM


edit to add: Nevermind the fact that the Smackdown crowd looked to be wearing between 1/3rd & 1/2 Bullet Club merch

[CrescentMoonie]

I think the problem with WWE is there is too much TV time to fill. How do you build up a good feud without guys touching for a couple months when they have to be on TV every week? They either need much more talent on the roster and give guys every other week off or cut back on the amount of programming they offer (which will never happen).

5 hours of primetime plus Main Event and 205 Live is ridiculous for the main roster every week. I can't imagine keeping things fresh without an enormous roster that's even bigger than the bloated one they have now.

[CrescentMoonie]

31 guys and 10 women on the RAW roster and you need more people(not counting the 20 cruiserweights)? 32/8 are on Smackdown. Every week Smackdown only has 3-4 matches. The problem is they don't want to develop mid-card story lines because they want to control who you root for. Remember when Fandango was hotter than the sun? They tease Sandow by giving him the MIB only to get squashed by Cena.

It's easy to keep guys away from each other between PPVs if you used the entire roster correctly. How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

Raw should be a bit bigger with the 3 hour time slot. Smackdown, before Vince got mad that it was beating Raw in the ratings and took the belt off of AJ for no freaking reason, was being booked pretty well.

[RainMaker]

31 guys and 10 women on the RAW roster and you need more people(not counting the 20 cruiserweights)? 32/8 are on Smackdown. Every week Smackdown only has 3-4 matches. The problem is they don't want to develop mid-card story lines because they want to control who you root for. Remember when Fandango was hotter than the sun? They tease Sandow by giving him the MIB only to get squashed by Cena.

It's easy to keep guys away from each other between PPVs if you used the entire roster correctly. How many tag teams are there on Smackdown to only have 1 match a week?

I agree to an extent. But how do you keep up a 3-4 month long feud between two wrestlers? It's 12-16 weekly shows and a couple PPVs.

And those numbers are a bit skewed. For instance on Raw, Brock, Big Show, and Goldberg are part timers. Rusev and Darren Young are injured. Out of the 10 women on Raw, only 7 are healthy right now. Dana has to do her bodybuilding shows for a few months a year. You have to cover 3 hours of Raw a week plus a match or two on Main Event. Plus a monthly PPV. And while you can throw a cruiserweight match or two on Raw a week, you still need an hour of content for them on 205 Live and Main Event.

They can do a better job with stuff but it's hard to have a tag division with 3-4 teams. A women's division with 5-6 women. And you have a handful of main eventers who must appear on TV each week.

[RainMaker]

An example too. NXT has around the same size roster as Raw or Smackdown but only gets an hour a week and a PPV every couple months. There is a reason their shows feel fresh and their feuds have heat. Nakamura and Roode didn't need to stand in the ring together each week for 2 months.

[Mota]

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat belongs to those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually either by being "held back," or by having success outside the WWE.

I agree, but that's only with regards to the WWE, because they tend to not give the fans what they want. If you watch ROH or NJPW, it's not the same.

[murrayyyyy]

I agree to an extent. But how do you keep up a 3-4 month long feud between two wrestlers? It's 12-16 weekly shows and a couple PPVs.

And those numbers are a bit skewed. For instance on Raw, Brock, Big Show, and Goldberg are part timers. Rusev and Darren Young are injured. Out of the 10 women on Raw, only 7 are healthy right now. Dana has to do her bodybuilding shows for a few months a year. You have to cover 3 hours of Raw a week plus a match or two on Main Event. Plus a monthly PPV. And while you can throw a cruiserweight match or two on Raw a week, you still need an hour of content for them on 205 Live and Main Event.

They can do a better job with stuff but it's hard to have a tag division with 3-4 teams. A women's division with 5-6 women. And you have a handful of main eventers who must appear on TV each week.

Smackdown averages 30 mins of actual wrestling during it's two hour show a week. And even with a show that has an hour and a half of talking, their most popular thing is Talking Smack after which is nothing but talking and has younger wrestlers like Bliss or Corbin get more mic time or put Miz over even more. And when the New Day gets traded to Smackdown next week, there will be even less wrestling probably.

AJ/Shane never had to have a match in the month before. Cena-Miz didn't have a match. Corbin-Ambrose didn't have a match. Orton-Wyatt didn't have a match(and still haven't aye-oh). With regards to the tag division, WWE has always done it horribly. But still you should be able to spread things out over weeks to built up a tag team to the #1 contenders spot. I mean they just kept their longest running tag team champions of the world off Wrestlemania and then had them job to the Revival the next night. This will not make me buy your Otter Pops rip -off.

Smackdown for the past 5 show below just shows how little they actually wrestle and why the show seems fresher (I know an hour shorter but you can break up a 10 man tag match to different matches).

March 28th Smackdown
2 Becky Lynch Draw (NC) Carmella 02:00 Commentator: Alexa Bliss
Commentator: Mickie James
3 Alexa Bliss & Carmella Def. (Pin) Becky Lynch & Mickie James 09:40 Commentator: Natalya
4 Chad Gable & Heath Slater & Jason Jordan & Mojo Rawley & Rhyno Def. (Pin) Dolph Ziggler & Fandango & Jey Uso & Jimmy Uso & Tyler Breeze 11:05 10-Person Tag
5 Bray Wyatt Def. (Pin) Luke Harper 08:10

March 21st Smackdown
1 Jey Uso & Jimmy Uso (Pin) Chad Gable (C) & Jason Jordan (C) 13:40 WWE Smackdown Tag Team Championship
(Title Change) ***¾
2 Randy Orton Def. (Pin) Baron Corbin 12:48
3 John Cena Def. (Sub) Fandango 01:25
4 Carmella Def. (DQ) Becky Lynch 00:41 Commentator: Natalya

March 14th Smackdown
2 Becky Lynch Def. (Sub) Natalya 08:45
3 Mickie James Def. (Pin) Alexa Bliss 08:36
4 Mojo Rawley Def. (CO) Dolph Ziggler 02:29
5 Jey Uso & Jimmy Uso Def. (Pin) Chad Gable & Jason Jordan 10:36

March 7th Smackdown
2 John Cena & Nikki Bella Def. (Sub) Carmella & James Ellsworth 07:06 Commentator: Maryse
Commentator: The Miz
3 Alexa Bliss & Mickie James Def. (Pin) Becky Lynch & Natalya 12:40
4 Randy Orton Def. (Pin) A.J. Styles 17:42

Feb 28th Smackdown
2 Becky Lynch Def. (Sub) Mickie James 14:08 2 Out Of 3 Falls
3 A.J. Styles Def. (Pin) Luke Harper 11:57
4 Curt Hawkins Draw (NC) Dean Ambrose
5 Dolph Ziggler Def. (Pin) Apollo Crews 08:55 Chair

[JonInMiddleGA]

An example too. NXT has around the same size roster as Raw or Smackdown but only gets an hour a week and a PPV every couple months. There is a reason their shows feel fresh and their feuds have heat. Nakamura and Roode didn't need to stand in the ring together each week for 2 months.

But there's also a reason I really don't feel much need to check NXT more than about once or twice between PPVs. Victory over local jobber or over roster cannon fodder isn't worth my time or effort to watch.

[cthomer5000]

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat belongs to those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually either by being "held back," or by having success outside the WWE.

I don't think anyone can get "true" heel heat anymore just because 100% of the audience knows it's all just a show.

That being said a few people do manage to get boos through their actions. Kevin Owens after the turn on Jericho is one, and Charlotte routinely gets great reactions out of the crowd. Charlotte REALLY sells the fact that she believes she is the best by divine right. She 100% sells that character in my opinion.

[bulletsponge]

I don't think anyone can get "true" heel heat anymore just because 100% of the audience knows it's all just a show.

That being said a few people do manage to get boos through their actions. Kevin Owens after the turn on Jericho is one, and Charlotte routinely gets great reactions out of the crowd. Charlotte REALLY sells the fact that she believes she is the best by divine right. She 100% sells that character in my opinion.

well she is the best female wrestler in wwe, so she should act that way

[JonInMiddleGA]

Umm ... wth?

Not seeing this on Twitter yet, just happened to spot it on FB.

Update regarding Katsuyori Shibata’s condition | NEW JAPAN PRO-WRESTLING (https://www.njpw1972.com/6670)
Update regarding Katsuyori Shibata’s condition

Katsuyori Shibata was taken to hospital due to poor health following his main event match on April 9th at Ryogoku Sumo Hall. He was conscious and able to communicate while being admitted to hospital.

After a medical examination, he was diagnosed with subdural hematoma and surgery was conducted as part of his treatment. He is now recovering following a successful operation.

Updates will be posted as his condition progresses.

Umm ... subdural hematoma, that's a brain bleed, right?
That's bad shit unless I'm misreading something here.

edit to add: What I'm getting at here, since it's not making the rounds anywhere else yet is whether this is a work or legit scary stuff.

[murrayyyyy]

Isn't his main move head butts? I'd say legit scary stuff.

So with the shift tonight/tomorrow. Any chance we get Shield 2.0 in the trade and Raw becomes NJPW 2.0?

[SirFozzie]

This is apparently legit, he's been doing this kinda shit for his whole career (unprotected headbutts, etcetera)

[CrescentMoonie]

I really like the NJPW product these days, but they've got to go the Lawler/Orndorff/Murdoch route on head and neck bumps.

[CrescentMoonie]

So with the shift tonight/tomorrow. Any chance we get Shield 2.0 in the trade and Raw becomes NJPW 2.0?

I'm interested in which way they go as Raw seems like the worst possible place for a NJPW style logical storyline and workrate show. I'm really hoping those guys stay on Smackdown. A year long build to the first AJ/Nakamura singles match at WM 34 could be great.

[murrayyyyy]

I'm interested in which way they go as Raw seems like the worst possible place for a NJPW style logical storyline and workrate show. I'm really hoping those guys stay on Smackdown. A year long build to the first AJ/Nakamura singles match at WM 34 could be great.

I'm wondering if that Hardy reaction @ Mania has Vince re-thinking the Shield breakup and not running with the Balor Club.

I guess you really can't run Shield 2.0 with the Usos having the Tag Belts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I really like the NJPW product these days, but they've got to go the Lawler/Orndorff/Murdoch route on head and neck bumps.

But if you take that approach, does the "strong-style" element really work?

I mean, Shibata-Okada was getting possible MotY talk immediately afterwards.
And what clip was considered the signature moment of the match enough so that it was the spot NJPW used as the freebie clip to promote it?

Yep. That headbutt. (though who knows which one was actually the injurous one-too-many).

Some matches are working, to significant degree, because (as my son so colorfully puts it) some of these guys "beating the blue fuck out of each other" is part of the story-telling.

[murrayyyyy]

And the first announcement is Apollo Crews to RAW. Makes me want to BO-lieve that the Wyatts will have a new family member.

[Scarecrow]

Shakeup results:

Going from Smackdown to Raw:
Apollo Crews
The Miz
Maryse
Dean Ambrose
Bray Wyatt
Curt Hawkins
Heath Slader
Rhyno
Kalisto
Mickie James
Alexa Bliss

Staying on Raw:
Seth Rollins (per Kurt Angle)
Finn Balor (fued with Wyatt)
Kevin Owens (champ vs champ match)

[CrescentMoonie]

Pretty sure Owens gets moved to SD tomorrow but still has his blowoff match with Jericho at the PPV to send Jericho on tour with his band.

[murrayyyyy]

Bliss and mickey james also?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pretty sure Owens gets moved to SD tomorrow but still has his blowoff match with Jericho at the PPV to send Jericho on tour with his band.

A tour that, if my luck holds up, I'll finally be able to see.

One of the stops is in guitarist Rich Ward's hometown ... about 20 mins from where I grew up/my family still is, so it's a slam dunk

[CrescentMoonie]

Shakeup results:

Going from Smackdown to Raw:
Apollo Crews
The Miz
Maryse
Dean Ambrose
Bray Wyatt
Curt Hawkins
Heath Slader
Rhyno
Kalisto
Mickie James
Alexa Bliss

Staying on Raw:
Seth Rollins (per Kurt Angle)
Finn Balor (fued with Wyatt)
Kevin Owens (champ vs champ match)

Also, random appearance by "The Drifter" Elias Sampson before the 8 man tag.

I wonder if Vince was listening to the crowd tonight. Very loud "You deserve it" chant when Reigns was strapped to the board to be put in the ambulance and nearly as loud "Hey Hey Goodbye" song from the crowd when the 2nd ambulance pulled away with Reigns in it. Strowman might be the top face on Raw according to fan reaction right now.

[murrayyyyy]

So would it really be a loss for Smackdown if they only got tonight:

New Day
KO
Charlotte +1
Zayn

Smackdown just got Nakamura & Dillinger also.

I guess from kayfabe view they are trading (from the draft) #2 Ambrose, #12 Wyatt, #17 Miz, #37 Kalisto, #45 Crews, #47 Bliss (UFA) Hawkins, Rhyno, Slader, James, Saxton for whatever comes across tonight.

Charlotte seems gone and she went #3, Zayn went #11, Owens #18 and New Day #10. If Banks (#13) gets added like she is rumored to be, that's Smackdown fleecing RAW.

Brought to you by #draftisstillrealtome2016

[CrescentMoonie]

Yeah, if that's the way it turns out then Raw might not get me to watch at all anymore. Saxton to Smackdown and Otunga to Raw is just arranging deck chairs. Hopefully JBL gets fired on live TV for what he did to Ranallo.

At this point I'm watching Raw for Joe, Strowman, Revival, Hardys, Finn, Miz, Bliss, and James. Not much else there I care about at all unless they keep moving the Cesaro/Sheamus team in a positive direction or they go ahead and have the Balor Club. Maybe they add Bo Dallas to his brother and tweak that gimmick away from the supernatural BS. I'll try to catch the segments with Brock and Heyman.

Smackdown looks much better as soon as they get the belt off of Boreton. Hopefully something like DIY or Sanity gets moved up to the blue brand.

[murrayyyyy]

Yeah, if that's the way it turns out then Raw might not get me to watch at all anymore. Saxton to Smackdown and Otunga to Raw is just arranging deck chairs. Hopefully JBL gets fired on live TV for what he did to Ranallo.

At this point I'm watching Raw for Joe, Strowman, Revival, Hardys, Finn, Miz, Bliss, and James. Not much else there I care about at all unless they keep moving the Cesaro/Sheamus team in a positive direction or they go ahead and have the Balor Club. Maybe they add Bo Dallas to his brother and tweak that gimmick away from the supernatural BS. I'll try to catch the segments with Brock and Heyman.

Smackdown looks much better as soon as they get the belt off of Boreton. Hopefully something like DIY or Sanity gets moved up to the blue brand.

Same as the only real loss to me last night was Miz and Bliss. I really think Smackdown should be how they bring up NXT guys as Talking Smack gives them more time to work on their mic skills. I think it helped Bliss and Corbin and reminded everyone how good Miz was when allowed to speak. I think Zayn could make the most of talking smack and almost wish they would write Zayn/Owens as a semi-tag team watching each others back to go USA-Canada against America Alpha or Anti-New Day.

Charlotte will probably have a longer career going to SD as Nia Jax or Sasha has tried to take years off her life with the botches.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'm looking forward to Charlotte vs Naomi for the sheer athleticism of it and Charlotte vs Becky for the best traditional heel vs the best traditional babyface in the company including the men.

[cthomer5000]

I laughed so hard I had tears rolling down my face when the crowd broke into the "You deserve it" chant while Roman was taking his beating. Going to be hard to top that for my moment of the year.

I'll wait until after tonight to issue my judgement on the "superstar shakeup" but so far i think they're making a lot of poor moves.

Their two guiding principals should have been to break up stale rivalries, so for me I'm going to lose my mind if Kevin Owens/Sami Zayn and/or Sasha/Charlotte end up on the same brand.

[cthomer5000]

Charlotte will probably have a longer career going to SD as Nia Jax or Sasha has tried to take years off her life with the botches.

She has MORE than returned the favor with Sasha. It felt like they were in a murder/suicide pact at times.

[CrescentMoonie]

Rumblings that Miz and Maryse will head back to Smackdown tonight.

[murrayyyyy]

Rumblings that Miz and Maryse will head back to Smackdown tonight.

Back? Wasn't that clearly John Cena and Nikki Cena on RAW last night? {this is why Miz is important to either show because he is the heel that always fits}

[CrescentMoonie]

So, is Wyatt going to make weird appearances on SD Live while not being on the show?

[murrayyyyy]

So, is Wyatt going to make weird appearances on SD Live while not being on the show?

Dude made cockroaches and worms on the mat at Mania. You think he can't take over both shows with his voodoo crap?

[CrescentMoonie]

If their intro is a look into how they'll be used then I'm happy with Primo and Epico getting away the Raw writing team.

So far we have:

KO
Zayn
Primo
Epico
Jinder Mahal

Hopefully Jinder doesn't knock anyone out tonight.

[murrayyyyy]

So added on top of my wish list the Shining Stars, Jinder, Sin Cara (why?), Rusev (hidden injured guy) and Tamina(the +1). If no one gets added before the end of the show I think Smackdown got better. Leaves the door open for Asuka to get the call up to Smackdown.

Superstar Brand
Byron Saxton RAW
Kevin Owens RAW
Sami Zayn RAW
The Shining Stars RAW
Jinder Mahal RAW
Tamina Undrafted Last Year
Charlotte Flair RAW
Sin Cara RAW
Rusev RAW
Lanalina RAW
The New Day RAW

[Toddzilla]

I'm going to lose my mind if Kevin Owens/Sami Zayn and/or Sasha/Charlotte end up on the same brand.
*cue sad trombone*

[CrescentMoonie]

I don't know what his ceiling is, but Baron Corbin is looking like he could be the best athletic big man in a while.

[General Mike]

Looks like Smackdown got the better of the post Mania callups/ Superstar Shakeup.

[Neuqua]

I feel like Luke Harper doesn't get much credit for his athleticism.

[Toddzilla]

I don't know what his ceiling is, but Baron Corbin is looking like he could be the best athletic big man in a while.

Ugh.

Styles carried him to the best match he's ever had.

[CrescentMoonie]

Ugh.

Styles carried him to the best match he's ever had.

Other than being dragged down by boring Ambrose, he's been good for a year. Every time he works with a smaller guy(s) where he can be the base they work off of, he looks good. The character works, his moveset isn't as limited as a lot of other big guys, and he's at least carryable already.

[Maple Leafs]

Did I miss an explanation of what the shakeup actually was, or how it happened? Like, did the GMs make trades? Was it a draft, or a lottery, or whatever? Or did the writers just figure that having people randomly show up on new shows would be good enough?

[CrescentMoonie]

No explanation, I think they realized that the draft lottery wasn't actually either of those things and changed the name as a way of admitting that they are literally just shaking up the rosters once a year.

[jbergey22]

Did I miss an explanation of what the shakeup actually was, or how it happened? Like, did the GMs make trades? Was it a draft, or a lottery, or whatever? Or did the writers just figure that having people randomly show up on new shows would be good enough?

Creative has been busy with all of their other wonderful ideas they just couldnt find the time to come up with a creative way to make roster changes....





LOL

[Carman Bulldog]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the wrestlers "contracted" to the different organizations and then have wrestler movement tied into the GM's "signing" wrestlers away?

That way you could have movement at any time in the year and also build suspense into the story lines regarding where free agents will sign (or re-sign)? You could even factor NXT into that universe, you could have guys getting "released", etc. So many variables.

[murrayyyyy]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the wrestlers "contracted" to the different organizations and then have wrestler movement tied into the GM's "signing" wrestlers away?

That way you could have movement at any time in the year and also build suspense into the story lines regarding where free agents will sign (or re-sign)? You could even factor NXT into that universe, you could have guys getting "released", etc. So many variables.

Not sure how close they would want to play the contract angle as it ends up being egg on the face if someone would leave down the line for another federation.

I'm just wondering in what world does it make sense that RAW would give up the longest reigning tag team champions, someone who's held the newly created women's title for 2/3 of it's existence (not counting her time with the Divas belt) and the guy who held the Universal title for about 90% of it's time for Wyatt, Ambrose, Bliss and the Miz.

Steph should be fired for approving all this. /s

[cthomer5000]

*cue sad trombone*


I actually like them both a whole lot, it just seems totally insane to me that they didn't split them up.

I think RAW wins in terms of recognizable talent, but I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised with how things worked out for Smackdown.

K.O., Zayn, Charlotte, and Rusev are among my absolute favorite people to watch.

Personally my only "ack, that sucks" loss from Smackdown is The Miz. I also don't see how going to Raw is going to benefit him. I'd like to see him get a major push, he's been on fire. No way that happens on RAW.

I generally favor Smackdown, and my favoritism is probable going to be even more pronounced after these moves.

[RainMaker]

Nakamura sure knows how to make an entrance. Over 4 million views already.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/m8izXHKZSXw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Comey]

That's a fantastic entrance. One of the best I've seen.

[Jon]

When this is done at Wrestlemania, it will be epic.

[RainMaker]

They'll lose Taker and eventually HHH over the top entrances at Mania. But Nakamura and Balor should make up for it in the coming years.

[murrayyyyy]

They'll lose Taker and eventually HHH over the top entrances at Mania. But Nakamura and Balor should make up for it in the coming years.

I'd throw Roode's "Glorious" also just because it's one of the few theme's with lyrics. Even Daniel Cormier has changed his ringtone to Glorious from Nakamura's theme.

<iframe width="790" height="445" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BGyV-FMUxmc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

7:45 mark if it posted the whole video.

At Mania it will probably be a full on orchestra with grand piano's everywhere.

[Racer]

Enjoyed going to Smackdown. Kevin Owens was my favorite. I seemed to confuse a kid sitting in front of me as I cheered him on while he made fun of the crowd. The kid kept looking back at me.

Dark Matches

Pre-Show
Breezango over The Ascension (I think that's who won - I wasn't fully paying attention)

Post-Show (Possible spoiler?)

Shinsuke Nakamura over Dolph Ziggler in the 205 Live ring. Guessing they had this match so some of the crowd would stick around for 205 Live. Seemed like maybe about 40% of people stuck around. Considering Ziggler wrestled the TV opener and they sort of feuded last week, wondering if this will eventually be a PPV match and this was a way for them to get some ring experience against one another.

[CrescentMoonie]

Jericho's light up scarf is already the runaway highlight of the night. Also sounds like WWE bought the rights to the Broken gimmick so there could be a Hardy's loss followed by general craziness for months.

[General Mike]

Aries vs Neville - what a terrible finish.

[CrescentMoonie]

Aries vs Neville - what a terrible finish.

I'm fine with it. I'd rather have more countouts, intentional DQs, etc if the writers/bookers were smarter about building to the actual payoff.

[General Mike]

I'm fine with it. I'd rather have more countouts, intentional DQs, etc if the writers/bookers were smarter about building to the actual payoff.

why not just punch the referee in every match then?

[CrescentMoonie]

why not just punch the referee in every match then?

Because you only do it, as a heel, when you feel like there's a real chance you can lose and you build to something like a no DQ match. Back when wrestling used consistent rules, that kind of thing was part of the build towards a blowoff in a big feud. It's booking 101 and it doesn't work anymore because there's not enough consistency to make it seem logical.

[CrescentMoonie]

Another crowd responding favorably to Strowman destroying Reigns. Two loud "Thank you Strowman" chants for the post match attack and WWE still ignores it and tries to sell him as a heel. A less loud "You Deserve It" chant for a bloody Reigns being helped to the back, not sure if they turned the crowd mics down or not.

[CrescentMoonie]

Billy Corgan just bought the NWA. Interested to see if he and Lagana can somehow make it meaningful again.

In WWE news, how did nobody in their production staff realize it was still going to be daylight outside and pre tape that stupid House of Horrors bit in the dark?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Corgan is either nuts OR in dire need of a tax writeoff.

He could double, and then redouble, the brand's relevance in 24 months and still only have something like the #4 wrestling brand in the country.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And Adam Cole is, apparently, officially free to negotiate.

Not sure there's anybody I consider a higher ceiling prospect right now. I'll be interested to see where he goes (if anywhere).

[RainMaker]

Corgan is either nuts OR in dire need of a tax writeoff.

He could double, and then redouble, the brand's relevance in 24 months and still only have something like the #4 wrestling brand in the country.

I think the term Bryan Alvarez uses for these people is spot on. Money marks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think the term Bryan Alvarez uses for these people is spot on. Money marks.

Yeah, but this feels ... different. Somehow.

I think he's just ... bored, moreso than the typically jocksniffing money mark.

[CrescentMoonie]

The difference is that Corgan/Lagana led TNA last year was probably the best the product has been from a creative standpoint. I don't see how he gets NWA on TV with any kind of meaningful channel, but if they can pitch it to the right TV exec it's a possibility that they at least take a decent shot at making the name relevant again.

Here's a longshot scenario:

1. WWE completes its purchase of ROH, shuttering the company.
2. Lucha Underground pisses off so much of its talent with their scheduling that they cease to exist.
3. Impact gonna Impact.
4. Corgan gets agreements in principle with enough meaningful workers (Cody, Adam Cole, some recent ROH or Impact castoffs, maybe a few CMLL/AAA/Crash luchadors, etc).
5. Corgan tells those workers they can do indy shows but puts it into their contracts that they have to work a certain number of shows for the current territories per year.
6. He takes those potential contracts to a decent sized TV channel (smaller than Spike but better than Pop/Destination America) and gets a slot.
7. NWA becomes the (still very distant) #2 wrestling organization in the US.

My biggest change to the current setup would be to try and recruit in more solid indies (AAW, PWG, MCW, OVW, etc.) to join without the archaic idea of calling themselves or their belts NWA Whatever anymore. Oh, and base yourself out of Vegas.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The difference is that Corgan/Lagana led TNA last year was probably the best the product has been from a creative standpoint. I don't see how he gets NWA on TV with any kind of meaningful channel, but if they can pitch it to the right TV exec it's a possibility that they at least take a decent shot at making the name relevant again.

Name a single network that would have any meaningful impact (no pun intended) that you believe would even sniff a wrestling show today, much less undertaking the project of reviving/rehabbing one.

Sinclair has bombed with it and they own the stations that are supposed to carry it. POP might as well not exist for TNA at this point. A start-up like LU didn't have any negative baggage attached.

2008 NWA had the deal with Colours, see how much that accomplished for them? There was an announcement of an NWA TV deal on AXS back in 2015 tho honestly I can't tell you if any show was ever produced or aired. NWA Hollywood (once booked by Lagana) got a local TV deal ... and left the organization shortly thereafter.

I'm not beating you up here, I'm just not seeing how TV that has any meaning is even a remote possibility for this.

[murrayyyyy]

Corgan is either nuts OR in dire need of a tax writeoff.

He could double, and then redouble, the brand's relevance in 24 months and still only have something like the #4 wrestling brand in the country.

He could just set up headquarters in Chicago and sign a deal with someone like Netflix or Amazon. Why go looking for a TV deal when TV is dying?

[CrescentMoonie]

Name a single network that would have any meaningful impact (no pun intended) that you believe would even sniff a wrestling show today, much less undertaking the project of reviving/rehabbing one.

Sinclair has bombed with it and they own the stations that are supposed to carry it. POP might as well not exist for TNA at this point. A start-up like LU didn't have any negative baggage attached.

2008 NWA had the deal with Colours, see how much that accomplished for them? There was an announcement of an NWA TV deal on AXS back in 2015 tho honestly I can't tell you if any show was ever produced or aired. NWA Hollywood (once booked by Lagana) got a local TV deal ... and left the organization shortly thereafter.

I'm not beating you up here, I'm just not seeing how TV that has any meaning is even a remote possibility for this.

I agree it's a huge longshot, but Corgan has successfully run a decent sized company at this point along with Lagana. 2008 NWA didn't have anyone with recent TV success, no matter how minimal, involved (and looked like the dying days of the AWA). I don't think the ROH product works on a wide scale so Sinclair is mostly irrelevant. I'm just thinking that Corgan might be able to pull together a perfect storm that is just enough to make them a minor player. One of the keys is being smarter than TNA was about letting guys work indy shows which Corgan already did.

[CrescentMoonie]

He could just set up headquarters in Chicago and sign a deal with someone like Netflix or Amazon. Why go looking for a TV deal when TV is dying?

Interesting, it's kind of the modern version of the weekly PPV model TNA started with. I wonder if Netflix would actually pay? If not, how does a wrestling organization make enough money to have Netflix/Amazon level production without either advertising money or TV rights fees? I guess Corgan could go full money mark and dump a ton into it, but how much of his reported $50 million net worth is he willing to part with to make this a go.

[murrayyyyy]

Interesting, it's kind of the modern version of the weekly PPV model TNA started with. I wonder if Netflix would actually pay? If not, how does a wrestling organization make enough money to have Netflix/Amazon level production without either advertising money or TV rights fees? I guess Corgan could go full money mark and dump a ton into it, but how much of his reported $50 million net worth is he willing to part with to make this a go.

Well I think Netflix (with international at their fingertips) is a better option. Netflix seems to be down with wrestling with them airing Lucha season 1 and 2 and also buying the GLOW series that is coming out soon. Corgan might have some Hollywood connections and be able to have the NWA center around vets who don't want the WWE travel plan. There is always some indy talent who would work less dates if allowed to do indy stuff. I mean you could put a belt on Cody and get a few other just to start the show. Not sure you need a roster bigger than 20 to start out.