Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

I saw a note from some of the dirt sheets that Scott & his son Cody (apparently their relationship featured prominently in the ESPN story) are already estranged again, per Scott's ex-wife.

[molson]

I don't feel bad for Hall, he made the choice that a lot guys make - live over the top in your 20s and 30s and not worry about the future. The guy's 53 but he's probably put his body through 100+ years of living. But he had a good time doing it. I'm sure if you told him when he was 30 he could live a simpler lifestyle as a construction worker in Florida, he would have rejected that even if he knew he'd be healthier 2 decades later. You can live like a rock star or you can have longevity, but you usually can't have both. And you argue there's no "wrong" choice even, but it is a choice.

[DaddyTorgo]

A review of WWE's Greatest Rivalries: Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7176623/one-wwe-greatest-rivalries)

[Mota]

Well, let's just say that if Cena doesn't turn heel at Survivor Series, they will have gone a long way towards killing their main event at Wrestlemania.

The whole point of this feud is to make Cena look good and bring him to the next level, this is the only way to do it. The only way. He's set to get booed out of the arena as it is, so might as well try and go in as a heel where that is the desired reaction.

[molson]

The whole point of this feud is to make Cena look good and bring him to the next level, this is the only way to do it. The only way. He's set to get booed out of the arena as it is, so might as well try and go in as a heel where that is the desired reaction.

The point of the feud is to get a record gate at Mania and to get the best PPV buyrate in 10ish years. It's not to fulfill smarkish booking fantasies. Rock is temporary, Cena's still going to be the face of the promotion and undisputed leading merchandise seller after mania.

Edit: Though I could see them doing what they did with HBK/Hogan a few years ago. Where HBK was the heel for the PPV build-up (because everyone was going to cheer Hogan anyway), but then he's back to normal right after the show's over. They've shown a willingness to go with the flow and make Cena heel against RVD, CM Punk...they just realize that for Cena to be a "heel" with the crowd in those situations, he really just needs to act like a face. If he starts acting like a heel (the traditional TURN moment) he'd actually lose his heel heat.

[Mota]

3.2 rating for Raw this week featuring The Rock and Mick Foley.

No buzz at all for the PPV with The Rock's first wrestling match in about 10 years.

Whatever it is they're doing, they're going to have to try a lot harder than that.

And if they're trying to protect Cena, putting him in the ring against Rock in Miami where he'll get booed by 100% of the crowd in front of a huge PPV audience would not be my way of doing it. Cena can't win over the crowd. IMO his 2011 run is disastrous, on par with the 1995 Diesel run. Your lead babyface should not get booed out of half the arenas he enters.

[RainMaker]

They won't turn him heel. Still sells too many t-shirts to the kids and does all the promo work they ask of him. Can't blame them as their business has shifted. It is kind of sad though how hard they are trying to get him over with the crowds. Having to bring back legends like Foley to cut a 20 minute promo to get him over.

[molson]

Happened to be in the right place at the right time - and I'm going to survivor series tonight, should be fun. The last time I went to a wrestling show was 2000 - I saw KOTR in Boston (including a hardcore evening gown match between Pat Patterson and Gerry Briscoe) and a random WCW Thunder in Syracuse that featured David Arquette winning the WCW World Title. I doubt either of those can be topped, but I've never been to MSG, so it should be a good time regardless.

[duckman]

I'm actually looking forward to tonight's PPV. I think Punk-Del Rio and Rock/Cena-Awesome Truth will be pretty good.

[RainMaker]

How was it molson. Crowd seemed really good throughout the night on TV.

[molson]

It was pretty fun. I don't think anybody was blown away but there was plenty enough there for everyone to stay fired up.

MSG is definitely a unique crowd. Much older than average probably, there were only a smattering of kids - maybe 5% of the audience was kids. I was out in the concession area right before the dark match started and I saw several grown men running back to their seats when Santino's music started - they were running to not miss ANY of the Santino dark match. That's a hardcore crowd.

The fans loved Santino, and Dolph Ziggler, and especially Zack Ryder, who got spontaneous chants all night. Cody Rhodes got a lot of chants too but I got the feeling those were just started by a couple of guys who got it going - Rhodes didn't have the overall "pop" that Ziggler did.

Everybody seemed bored during Show/Henry so they started with the chants - "Mae Young", "Sexual Chocolate"...nothing too clever really.....but it was funny to just hear the smattering of boredom. I think boredom is an actual audible sound at a wrestling show, you start to hear all of this conversation around you about unrelated topics. I usually don't mind the slow/big guy matches, but this just seemed off.

It's amazing how fast the matches went by in person - it didn't feel like there was a slow moment (except for Show/Henry, and a few minutes of the tag team elimination match, after Sin Cara was injured, when it felt like they were trying to reset and get word from the back about what the new finish/order of elimination would be). But otherwise, the crowd popped for pretty much every move, which made CM Punk/Del Rio just fly by.

Rock looked great...I'm sure every second of that match was planned out and rehearsed (I read somewhere that Rock worked with Miz and R-Truth in Florida a handful of times to get the match down) but he put the time in to pull it off. I'm sure he can have a great main-event caliber match with Cena. I know a lot of people were looking for more storyline development in that finish, but Rock's off to shoot a movie and they still have another 5 months to build this thing for Mania. Rock blew the roof off the place, so I guess they figured that was enough for tonight. Still, a little anti-climatic. Rock did about 5 more minutes on the mic after the show went off the air - there again, there was a "We want Ryder" chant, and Rock acknowledged it, saying, "ya, I like that guy too", and then moving on, basically a little sentimental promo about MSG and his return.

Overall, it was fun, it is really tough to get through 2 1/2 - 3 hours of a PPV when you're drinking heavily, there's not a lot of natural bathroom breaks, and it's a bit of a commitment to get out and back. I think people were waiting for the divas' music to hit to make a break for it, but that was the second match and we were caught a little off guard.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from prowrestling.net

Independent wrestler Bison Smith (a/k/a Mark Smith) reportedly died on Tuesday in Puerto Rico at the age of 38, according to PRWrestling.com. The initial cause of death is listed in the story as heart complications.

Powell's POV: Smith worked regularly in Japan and also had a run with Ring of Honor in 2009. He was scheduled to wrestle this weekend in Puerto Rico for the World Wrestling Council.

[SirFozzie]

Looks like rtruth was caught in the latest round of Wellness testing and is suspended 30 days.. which is why they rushed the miiz truth split last night

[Mota]

Wow, that's sad about Bison Smith. I watched him quite a few times in Pro Wrestling NOAH where he was pretty darn good. Also just about had him crash into me at an RoH show when he went over the guard rail.

[Toddzilla]

Looks like rtruth was caught in the latest round of Wellness testing and is suspended 30 days.. which is why they rushed the miiz truth split last nightwhich is also an indication of how bullshit phony the WWE Wellness policy is. Killings tested positive after the PPV? Really?

Really?

Really?

Most likely it was some time before the PPV and they need him for the PPV AND Raw, so let him compete after a "violation" and then suspend him when it's convenient.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Most likely it was some time before the PPV and they need him for the PPV AND Raw, so let him compete after a "violation" and then suspend him when it's convenient.

Well, he's still eating the time w/out pay, not sure that it's necessarily incumbent upon the company to create significant disruption for themselves by doing it on the spot rather than several days later. After all, doing anything at all exceeds what's required of them.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, I read it was him and Bourne that got busted smoking some weird herbal drug I'd never heard of. Bourne got suspended before the PPV and R-Truth after.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Not fair to the fans and other performers to completely overhaul a PPV the night of because of a test. He'll get his 30 days and go from there. Surprised they didn't have Bourne and Kofi drop the tag titles before the suspension, but I guess those belts don't matter much anyway.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ron smoking is about the least shocking news ever. That's not a new development for him at all, although I guess the synthetic version puts a new spin on it.

[RainMaker]

It was pretty fun. I don't think anybody was blown away but there was plenty enough there for everyone to stay fired up.

MSG is definitely a unique crowd. Much older than average probably, there were only a smattering of kids - maybe 5% of the audience was kids. I was out in the concession area right before the dark match started and I saw several grown men running back to their seats when Santino's music started - they were running to not miss ANY of the Santino dark match. That's a hardcore crowd.

The fans loved Santino, and Dolph Ziggler, and especially Zack Ryder, who got spontaneous chants all night. Cody Rhodes got a lot of chants too but I got the feeling those were just started by a couple of guys who got it going - Rhodes didn't have the overall "pop" that Ziggler did.

Everybody seemed bored during Show/Henry so they started with the chants - "Mae Young", "Sexual Chocolate"...nothing too clever really.....but it was funny to just hear the smattering of boredom. I think boredom is an actual audible sound at a wrestling show, you start to hear all of this conversation around you about unrelated topics. I usually don't mind the slow/big guy matches, but this just seemed off.

It's amazing how fast the matches went by in person - it didn't feel like there was a slow moment (except for Show/Henry, and a few minutes of the tag team elimination match, after Sin Cara was injured, when it felt like they were trying to reset and get word from the back about what the new finish/order of elimination would be). But otherwise, the crowd popped for pretty much every move, which made CM Punk/Del Rio just fly by.

Rock looked great...I'm sure every second of that match was planned out and rehearsed (I read somewhere that Rock worked with Miz and R-Truth in Florida a handful of times to get the match down) but he put the time in to pull it off. I'm sure he can have a great main-event caliber match with Cena. I know a lot of people were looking for more storyline development in that finish, but Rock's off to shoot a movie and they still have another 5 months to build this thing for Mania. Rock blew the roof off the place, so I guess they figured that was enough for tonight. Still, a little anti-climatic. Rock did about 5 more minutes on the mic after the show went off the air - there again, there was a "We want Ryder" chant, and Rock acknowledged it, saying, "ya, I like that guy too", and then moving on, basically a little sentimental promo about MSG and his return.

Overall, it was fun, it is really tough to get through 2 1/2 - 3 hours of a PPV when you're drinking heavily, there's not a lot of natural bathroom breaks, and it's a bit of a commitment to get out and back. I think people were waiting for the divas' music to hit to make a break for it, but that was the second match and we were caught a little off guard.

It seemed like a good PPV. You're right about Show/Henry, but I think a match like that can get buried when you have such a big main event. If that was headlining a PPV, it's another story. But it's fine for a midcard match. While I like Henry being a dominant champ, I don't like the feud with Show. Problem is that they don't really have another face besides Orton to throw at him right now.

I thought the Main Event was fine. I wasn't expecting some 5 star match, just wanted to see the Rock do his thing. Thought the rest of the card was fun too and the right guys won from a storytelling standpoint.

Their product has been better lately, although I still have no idea what they are trying to do with Kevin Nash. All I can think of is setting up a program with CM Punk but not sure that has much interest. Wouldn't mind seeing a short feud with Ziggler-Punk, the match they put on Monday was well done. And what the hell is with the Twitter obsession they have lately?

[RainMaker]

So it looks like Nash is done and has been pulled from WWE events. Not sure what the point of bringing him back was.

I wonder how long it's going to take before they pull a tweener storyline out of Cena. At some point they are going to run out of former stars begging fans to cheer him.

Also saw Todd Grisham hosting SportsCenter the other night. Seems like ESPN has a pipeline with WWE these days.

[molson]

So it looks like Nash is done and has been pulled from WWE events. Not sure what the point of bringing him back was.

I wonder how long it's going to take before they pull a tweener storyline out of Cena. At some point they are going to run out of former stars begging fans to cheer him.



Wasn't Piper telling Cena to tell the fans to fuck off? It was some fun continuity, that's the 2nd or 3rd Piper's Pit over the last few years where Piper has tried to talk Cena into turning heel. The WWE really isn't afraid of acknowledging Cena's boos - last night Cena actually brought up the 3-4 most hostile crowds he ever wrestled in front of over the last 5 years. You make it sound like Royal Rumble 1992 where the WWF didn't acknowledge, and then actually tried to edit out, the cheers when Sid eliminated Hogan, or when they cut short the Jake Roberts/Hogan feud because Roberts was getting too many cheers. For god's sake, they're booking him against the Rock at Mania, he will be the heel in that match, just like he was the heel against RVD, against Edge, against CM Punk. Every one of those matches involved a heel turn, and they were all considered great matches/storylines. In 2011, not unlike 1996, I don't think you can define heel/face strictly based on how a guy acts, or traditional booking. If Cena is boo'd and the Rock is cheered at Mania - Cena's the heel. And that alignment is very obviously intentional - just like it was intentional with RVD/Edge/CM Punk. If a company sets up a guy in a match where he'll be boo'd, and then he is, how is he not a heel?

I think the Nash thing is all about health. The guy has heart issues, I think they were hoping for 1 or 2 PPV garbage hardcore type matches, and that's still might be the plan, and opposed to him wrestling a full schedule.

[Toddzilla]

Nash couldn't even walk to the ring for chrissakes, he had to deliver his promo from the stage.

[RainMaker]

Wasn't Piper telling Cena to tell the fans to fuck off? It was some fun continuity, that's the 2nd or 3rd Piper's Pit over the last few years where Piper has tried to talk Cena into turning heel. The WWE really isn't afraid of acknowledging Cena's boos - last night Cena actually brought up the 3-4 most hostile crowds he ever wrestled in front of over the last 5 years. You make it sound like Royal Rumble 1992 where the WWF didn't acknowledge, and then actually tried to edit out, the cheers when Sid eliminated Hogan, or when they cut short the Jake Roberts/Hogan feud because Roberts was getting too many cheers. For god's sake, they're booking him against the Rock at Mania, he will be the heel in that match, just like he was the heel against RVD, against Edge, against CM Punk. Every one of those matches involved a heel turn, and they were all considered great matches/storylines. In 2011, not unlike 1996, I don't think you can define heel/face strictly based on how a guy acts, or traditional booking. If Cena is boo'd and the Rock is cheered at Mania - Cena's the heel. And that alignment is very obviously intentional - just like it was intentional with RVD/Edge/CM Punk. If a company sets up a guy in a match where he'll be boo'd, and then he is, how is he not a heel?

I think the Nash thing is all about health. The guy has heart issues, I think they were hoping for 1 or 2 PPV garbage hardcore type matches, and that's still might be the plan, and opposed to him wrestling a full schedule.

I think Cena is a heel right now. At best it seems like half the crowd is booing him and at worst it's most of the crowd like we saw at MSG. And while you can say it's not booked traditionally, they've been essentially running promos/segments every week begging fans to cheer for him. They had to run out multiple legends to pander to the crowd for him and even had to get rubs off of guys like CM Punk. Who would have thought that Cena would need to be using Ryder's name for cheap pops these days?

The Piper segment was good, although I thought it could have been better. Wouldn't have minded 5 minutes more. I thought Piper would push the angle more. There can be a good case to be made that he should be mad at certain fans who boo him and cheer the Rock. He is the guy out there every week, is the guy doing the promos, is the guy shaking hands and meeting kids. Rock comes in for a week every few months and gets the big pops. That is sort of bullshit.

As for Nash, I guess I don't understand why they bothered. They took the hottest angle they had and put Kevin Nash and his poor health in front of it. Just makes no sense at all.

[Mota]

I thought last night's Raw was pretty good. The whole Cena thing was cool. I certainly don't consider him a heel though. He's just a pretty lame face that doesn't get support from 50% of the crowd. I like that they're putting the moral dilemma for him though, so much more interesting to think about that rather than him just going along his merry way, not caring about anything.

I also liked the Daniel Bryan thing. It's another angle that makes you think, so 2 of these storylines in one episode is great. Will Bryan win the title? I don't know... they pretty much made it sound like he can't beat him 1 on 1 so maybe he'll lose the match and cash in later? What are the chances of him turning heel and aligning with Michael Cole? Seems like that would be a neat twist.

[molson]

The WWE's obsession with Nash does seem a little TNA-esque.

[RainMaker]

I never watch Smackdown so I just heard about the Bryan thing yesterday. But that seems like a cool storyline. I hope they don't turn him heel as I think underdog faces are fun to root for and so rare in WWE.

[Mota]

He really can be a good face or a heel. The guy has a lot of FIRE during his matches and he is able to pull the fans into his matches even though half the time they have him ending up like a jobber.
As a face, he really needs to shut Michael Cole up. I really believe he should put him in a hold and make him tap. Then if Cole ever says anything bad about him, he just makes the tap symbol and Cole instantly shuts up. That would be a cool storyline. Really, after Cole trash talking Bryan for well over a year now, I feel like something needs to be done.

[Matthean]

Maria Menounos Will Be Wrestling in the WWE Again (Photos) | AthlonSports.com (http://www.athlonsports.com/overtime/maria-menounos-will-be-wrestling-wwe-again-photos)

[RainMaker]

Who'd have seen this coming a year ago?

http://i.imgur.com/RpifE.jpg

[molson]

That was a really great RAW top to bottom.

And this is definitely the highest quality fan video of a wrestling event I've ever seen. If this is from a cell phone I'd like to know which one. Kind of a fun perspective on Daniel Bryan cashing in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIipaDBh9dU

[molson]

Who'd have seen this coming a year ago?



The only one I would have been surprised about was Zack Ryder, of course, I'm the one guy who thinks the WWE has been guilty of pushing new stars too quickly, Sheamus and Wade Barrett and even Jack Swagger would be a lot more interesting right now if they were still on the way up, and if the company hadn't already blown their initial main event run with all three guys already. (Though I don't think that's the case at all with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk).

[RainMaker]

They're trying to fix Barrett but I think they did a good job with Sheamus. He's made a decent face I think.

I still think it's a shock to see where things have gone. Punk was almost an afterthought this time last year and is now the top face. Ryder was never on TV and is popular as ever. They sort of have a tag division and almost everyone with a belt can actually wrestle. I guess it's just nice that in-ring ability is starting to matter, not just how many steroids you can do.

[Mota]

I watched Evolve 10 last night, since it was the Tribute to the ECW Arena and most likely the last wrestling event there.
I really believe that Evolve has the top up and coming talent that's out there right now, Ricochet is great, Johnny Gargano is really good and has a TON of personality. There's Uhaa Nation who is a big jacked guy who can do moves that some high flyers can't even do. Ronin is a really charismatic tag team.

Unfortunately during the main event of Richochet vs. Johnny Gargano, Gargano hurt his back somehow and the match just sucked. The crowd was crapping on the match and the chat room was really negative. Then you hear Gargano calling the match and they go right to the finish. Gargano was stuck on the mat for several minutes a lot of people came out to help him. They basically dragged him out of the ring, think Steve Austin after he took the bad piledriver from Owen Hart. An ambulance came to bring him to the hospital after the match. Hopefully he'll be okay.

They had an overbooked segment in the end involving some classic ECW people, CZW, it led into a Justin Credible vs. Sabu match and then Sami Callahan taking over the ring to send out the arena. It was a good moment where the old put over the new.

[General Mike]

Rumor is Johnny Ace is winning the Rumble tonight. Would be typical WWE.

[bulletsponge]

that sounds more WCW like.

[General Mike]

Rumor is Johnny Ace is winning the Rumble tonight. Would be typical WWE.

I guess Vince changed his mind, or they talked him out of it. Thank god.

[molson]

I guess Vince changed his mind, or they talked him out of it. Thank god.

Ya, I'm sure they "changed their mind" and that wasn't NEWZ. (unless you can cite a reputable source).

They can put the belts on and build the company around the ROH guys and people will still be negative about everything. But it's been a fun few months for sure. Daniel Bryan is awesome as a subtle heel, John Laurinaitis can be hilarious as as the empty suit heel who kind of wishes he was a face, CM Punk is the center of everything, Ziggler and Sheamus and Barrett and Rhodes get pushed strongly, Orton and Cena are away from the world titles (even though they're the 2 most over guys in the company and not even 35 years old yet), Zach Ryder - mediocre talent - gets pushed in main event angles because he does a popular youtube video...."Typical WWE" indeed.

[General Mike]

Meltzer alluded to the idea of Laurinitus winning the Rumble on his audio show. They did not say it word for word, but said it was a terrible idea that fit in with the story.

I'm not sure where the idea if Sheamus winning fits in. I guess they could go 3 way on Smackdown with Orton, Bryan and Sheamus, or even 4 way with Henry in there, but I don't like it.

[RainMaker]

They need a new, young face badly with some credibility. Sheamus seems like the best prospect at the moment and I understand why they went with him.

[General Mike]

Meltzer alluded to the idea of Laurinitus winning the Rumble on his audio show. They did not say it word for word, but said it was a terrible idea that fit in with the story.

I'm not sure where the idea if Sheamus winning fits in. I guess they could go 3 way on Smackdown with Orton, Bryan and Sheamus, or even 4 way with Henry in there, but I don't like it.

ok. Ignore everything I said. Meltzer clarified that the terrible idea was Cena winning the Rumble, and then having to give up the title shot to face the Rock, thus making the Rumble meaningless.

[molson]

They need a new, young face badly with some credibility. Sheamus seems like the best prospect at the moment and I understand why they went with him.

Is CM Punk already stale? That happened faster than I thought if we're already looking for the next guy.

I still can't believe they put the belts on, and book both shows around two indy guys. It's amazing how fast people have kind of just gotten used to that idea. 3-4 years ago, this would have just been considered fantasy booking that would never really happen.

The WWE thought they could improve the product and have things be more exciting by responding to all the traditional criticisms, "Vince only pushes guys he made, Vince only pushes roided up hosses, etc". But I think those criticisms always missed the mark, and the WWE's response has missed the mark. If they can push two ROH stars to the top of the card and people still think they need "new stars", than I think we can just know for sure that people will ALWAYS say they need "new stars" no matter what. (People clamored for Cena to get a push in 2002-2003, he did, the cycle just repeats) I think there's other places they can improve their product and they should stop being obsessed with having 4 brand new guys win the world title and main event PPVs every year. I'd rather they focus on having more unpredictable storylines and better promos top to bottom. A quality TV show doesn't need brand new stars every year. Tony Soprano was interesting for the entire run of the Sopranos because it was well written, they didn't need to push a new guy ahead of him every year. I wonder if they've decided to listen TOO much to that particular group of cynical internet fans (who they'll never be able to please - those fans will just up the bar and now be pissed off if they don't do Punk v. Bryan in a 90 minute iron man match to unify the titles at Mania, and then if the WWE DID that, they'd complain that they didn't give those guys enough time).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is CM Punk already stale? That happened faster than I thought if we're already looking for the next guy.

IIRC, the TV ratings have not been kind to segments with Punk since he became "the guy" and the company has been reportedly/rumored to be considering de-pushing him for at least the past month or so.

[molson]

IIRC, the TV ratings have not been kind to segments with Punk since he became "the guy" and the company has been reportedly/rumored to be considering de-pushing him for at least the past month or so.

Ya, he's kind of like a quality TV show that doesn't have the ratings yet but the network is going to give a little time anyway. He seems to sell merchandise and pop live crowds, it's hard to see who might do better in that spot. Though, how can they not be tempted to go back to booking the show around Cena when his segments do so much better? They're basically the same age, it's not a pushing the youth for the future situation.

On the other hand, I've also heard that Smackdown ratings have been comparably strong, and they're giving Daniel Bryan credit for that. I think his reign has already been longer than they planned on it being.

[RainMaker]

Is CM Punk already stale? That happened faster than I thought if we're already looking for the next guy.

No, I don't think he's gotten stale. I just think they are in need of building up some main eventers. Over the last few years they've lost HBK, Undertaker, HHH, Edge, Batista, and Jeff Hardy. That's a lot of talent at the top of the roster. They have to fill that in with more than just CM Punk. So they're pushing guys like Ziggler, Bryan, Barrett, and Sheamus.

I think it was a smart move to have him win it. It gives Smackdown another top babyface and I'd suspect we see a long run for Sheamus next year to truly cement himself as a main eventer.

It's not about creating "the next guy". Cena and Orton are both young still. It's about building up the top half of the roster so that when one of those two goes down or needs a fresh storyline, they don't tumble.

[RainMaker]

IIRC, the TV ratings have not been kind to segments with Punk since he became "the guy" and the company has been reportedly/rumored to be considering de-pushing him for at least the past month or so.

Yeah, his storyline has been pretty horrible for a few months now. They never were able to really build on the buzz from the Summer. I wouldn't be surprised if he lost the belt at WM. But I also don't know how much ratings will matter. Seems their business is more centered around merchandise these days instead of a couple tenths of a point in the ratings.

[Mota]

I think that just because the WWE gives someone a title, it doesn't mean they're pushing him. Most wrestlers' first title reigns have been a complete disaster in the past 2-3 years.

In the case of Daniel Bryan in the beginning they made sure we all knew that he didn't really deserve the title and he just fluked into it. I think he's done such a good job with the role he was given that he's actually making it work, and just as Molson said, it probably extended his title reign. I'm really thinking a Bryan / Sheamus match scould be awesome with some good development.

[Mota]

I still can't believe they put the belts on, and book both shows around two indy guys. It's amazing how fast people have kind of just gotten used to that idea. 3-4 years ago, this would have just been considered fantasy booking that would never really happen.

Isn't it basically the same as Rey Mysterio / Chris Benoit from several years back? They weren't indie guys, but they were little guys that the WWE historically never pushed.

I think the WWE is basically forced to try new stuff given the amount of wrestlers that have left in the past few years, and the amount of injuries that are currently happening.

Now it's up to guys like Bryan / Sheamus / Ziggler to prove to McMahon that they deserve these spots, so when the other guys come back they will be able to keep their spots.

[molson]

Isn't it basically the same as Rey Mysterio / Chris Benoit from several years back? They weren't indie guys, but they were little guys that the WWE historically never pushed.



It's definitely somewhat like that, but Benoit and Mysterio were big stars in WCW. And even ECW was bigger than any indy promotion now. WWE pushed them further, but even that took 5-6 years for both guys to reach the top. (though it was definitely surprising for Benoit and Mysterio to reach the top of WWE).

Maybe it'd be like pushing Reckless Youth and Mike Quackenbush on top of the company in 1999. - those are two guys I've never seen actually seen wrestle, but I remember them as the big indy guys in the mid-late 90s, like Danielson/Punk/and Samoa Joe were in the middle of the last decade. But that's not a perfect comparison either, because maybe ROH was really closer to ECW as far as being a feeder company to the WWE than I'm giving them credit for. I just never expected the WWE to be interested in the ROH guys, but maybe I should have, since they did fall in love with all the ECW guys that were worth anything.

And I thought if any ROH guy would make it big in the WWE, it'd be Samoa Joe, but he's apparently turned them down more than once. I wonder if he regrets that now, seeing the success of Byan and Punk, and seeing that now he's pretty much fat and useless.

Edit: Just as a sidenote, I realized fairly recently that all those guys had jobber runs in the WWE, it's kind of fun to see CM Punk v. Val Venis, Bryan Danielson v. John Cena, and Samoa Joe v. Essa Rios from Heat/Velocity/other B-shows 7 or 8 years ago, they're all on youtube.

[Mota]

One thing that I'd like to see from the WWE is a sense of progression.

Right now they take new guys, overpush them, see that they don't work and then shove them into the lower or midcard after having been WWE Champion. It just doesn't make any sense, and the fans seem to not take to new guys because the feeling is that these guys are only temporarily successful.

Take 75% of your guys and start them in the lower card. Then make them develop a finisher or some new moves that help them out and they progress to the next level. Get the fans invested in the wrestlers as they develop, and when they finally made it to the top, they're "our" wrestlers that we've been watching develop over 1-2 years. I used to see it all the time in the "olden days" and it was cool.

There's always the top 25% though that you want to protect right from the start and not hand them too many losses, but that's reserved for the guarantees, like a Brock Lesnar or Rock who you know are going to be future stars. I'm talking giving the progression push to guys like a Drew McIntyre or Sheamus, both of whom were damaged by being pushed directly to the top without getting the required experience. It's been a long road for Sheamus but they are trying to rebuild him now. I think McIntyre is done for, even though today he is probably good enough to justify the "chosen one" gimmick that he was given when he first started but wasn't good enough to sustain it.

[Mota]

But that's not a perfect comparison either, because maybe ROH was really closer to ECW as far as being a feeder company to the WWE than I'm giving them credit for. I just never expected the WWE to be interested in the ROH guys, but maybe I should have, since they did fall in love with all the ECW guys that were worth anything.

Post-ECW and hardcore era, ROH was the place where all the top indy talent went. So it's not really surprising to see so many guys on the WWE / TNA roster. 2004-2006 ROH is really on par with any wrestling company out there right now. Just look at the list of guys that were in ROH in that era...

TNA:
AJ Styles
Christopher Daniels
Samoa Joe
Austin Aries
Desmond Wolfe (Nigel McGuinness, although a health issue derailed that push he was getting)

WWE:
CM Punk
Evan Bourne (Matt Sydal)
Daniel Bryan (Bryan Danielson)
Seth Rollins (Tyler Black)
Antonio Cesaro (Claudio Castagnoli)
Hopefully Chris Hero (verbal agreement but needs to pass a physical --- but is big, good wrestler and a great talker)

Unfortunately there's a lot less indy talent out there due to the popularity of MMA, so today's ROH roster pales in comparison to the glory days. They've been picked clean, and haven't developed new guys fast enough to replace them. The new guys are more role-players rather than future stars. They're also competing against Dragon Gate USA / Evolve for the talent, in most cases it's not shared. I'd say that DGUSA probably has the strongest future roster right now to be honest and I don't even watch it that much. Just watch, Dean Ambrose is already one of the leading guys in FCW and touring on the Smackdown house shows, and I'm betting that Johnny Gargano and Ricochet will also be signed up in the next year or so as they are really good.

Sorry, long post but I have to give that era of ROH props for developing so many great guys.

[molson]

One thing that I'd like to see from the WWE is a sense of progression.

Right now they take new guys, overpush them, see that they don't work and then shove them into the lower or midcard after having been WWE Champion. It just doesn't make any sense, and the fans seem to not take to new guys because the feeling is that these guys are only temporarily successful.

Take 75% of your guys and start them in the lower card. Then make them develop a finisher or some new moves that help them out and they progress to the next level. Get the fans invested in the wrestlers as they develop, and when they finally made it to the top, they're "our" wrestlers that we've been watching develop over 1-2 years. I used to see it all the time in the "olden days" and it was cool.

There's always the top 25% though that you want to protect right from the start and not hand them too many losses, but that's reserved for the guarantees, like a Brock Lesnar or Rock who you know are going to be future stars. I'm talking giving the progression push to guys like a Drew McIntyre or Sheamus, both of whom were damaged by being pushed directly to the top without getting the required experience. It's been a long road for Sheamus but they are trying to rebuild him now. I think McIntyre is done for, even though today he is probably good enough to justify the "chosen one" gimmick that he was given when he first started but wasn't good enough to sustain it.

I totally agree with that, but if you look back in this thread, or elsewhere on the internet, almost everybody wanted the same thing back when these sudden pushes started - Orton and Cena out of the main event scene and every cool heel midcarder getting pushed to the moon. Not just world titles, mind you, but they wanted the actual shows built around guys that were brand new. Even now, but especially then, any time Cena or Orton won a match, any match, or were in a PPV main event, any PPV main event, the whining would explode. So they finally change direction on that, and everyone hates that too. Back then, the pushes to guys like Sheamus and Swagger and Hardy, and Miz, and the first Punk world title push and all the others were considered "not enough" because even though they had the titles, Orton and Cena were still in the main event scene so people were pissed. But NOW, the same fans consider those guys to have been OVERPUSHED back then (and I suppose the implication is that all 5 of those guys, and probably a few more I'm leaving out, should have somehow, together, all maintained #1 or #2 guy type-pushes).

I wish I could, in some fictional universe, watch the RAW, and the WWE storylines play out in a way that would make that cynical group of IWC fans like the product. I actually don't think it's possible. I think that if such a theoretical, alternative universe existed, it would be so incorrect at its core that it might swallow the universe whole.

People talk so fondly about the 80s when so much of it is garbage, especially by today's standards. Have you ever watched a 1986 WWF TV show? You never had a match last more than 2-3 minutes, and 75% of the matches were guys kind of standing around or taking a breather before their next move. Or take the NWA in the 80s - everybody loved the Wargames match, they say that's what's missing from today, those long feuds. Almost all of those matches ended with JJ Dillon submitting for the four horseman so none of the real wrestlers had to. Yes, in a match where one submission is all you need, the four horseman always brought JJ Dillon. Just one example of many. If the WWE booked main events like that today people wouldn't just dislike it, they'd get ANGRY and actually take it personally.

[molson]

Post-ECW and hardcore era, ROH was the place where all the top indy talent went. So it's not really surprising to see so many guys on the WWE / TNA roster. 2004-2006 ROH is really on par with any wrestling company out there right now. Just look at the list of guys that were in ROH in that era...



It's interesting how the WWE took on the identify of both promotions to an extent. They took a lot from ECW obviously, both talent and show style. I didn't think they'd take anything from ROH, but they have. We have two smallish "workers" on top, and they're pretty much running 2004-2006 ROH storylines, except in reverse (Daniel Bryan is the "I'm better than you" Vegan, and Punk is the "best wrestler in the world".) The WWE just cleans them up, ads production values, and sanitizes them for the masses. You could look at that as adapting to the available talent and cultural influences of what's going on in the smaller promotions, or more likely, if you're on the internet, they're "stealing it", "watering it down", "ruining the smaller companies", "wasting great talent", etc....or even sometimes still "Vince only pushes roided up hosses, Vince only pushes talent he created, Vince hates wrestling, blah blah.)

[Mota]

Some of those stories are so great, it's nice to see them with production values. The CM Punk leaving story was pretty similar to him leaving ROH to go to WWE, only there he actually did leave.
The slow turn to heel for Daniel Bryan is also a story that was told after he first won the ROH Title.
Gabe Sapolski was the booker in ROH back then and doesn't seem to have a problem with it at all, he pointed it out on Twitter a few weeks back.

If those are two of the best storylines in the WWE in the past year, maybe they should be calling up Gabe and giving him a job as a writer.

The WWE does need to adapt. There are less prospects to pick from out there, and the TNA talent is too damaged in many cases to bring over. The prospects out there are generally smaller, and that's okay because UFC has proven that badasses come in all sizes. You don't need to be 280 lbs. to look like you can kick some butt.

[Mota]

Good day at work today... I'm going to a Wal-Mart manager's vendor show working my company's booth, and while I'm there, I got to meet Natalya, Beth Phoenix and Trish Stratus who were all there on behalf of various Wal-Mart vendors. They were all super nice, I talked with Trish for about 5 minutes and it was just like talking to someone you've known for years.

My son came home after school to find 3 autographs to his name, I definitely scored some good dad points for that one!

[bulletsponge]

trish is seriously smokin hot. just dont get caught calling out her name next time your "intimate" with the Mrs

[JonInMiddleGA]

trish is seriously smokin hot. just dont get caught calling out her name next time your "intimate" with the Mrs

And don't refer to getting some Stratusfaction afterwards either.

[RainMaker]

I saw her in a restaurant many years ago here in Chicago. The TV does not do her justice. She has an absolutely incredible body and a really pretty face. One of the 5 most beautiful women I've ever seen in-person in my entire life.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rumors that Russo is out at TNA (after he was not backstage for tonight's PPV). Most likely related to the lackluster ratings generated by the shows they taped in the U.K.

That'd be good news under most circumstances but since it appears to only mean more control goes back to Bischoff, this really doesn't seem like much to be excited about.

[molson]

TNA's Jesse Sorensen is still in intensive care after this move last night at their PPV. Latest word is he still no movement in his legs, and people are concerned with the general lack of further updates and that Karen Jarrett tweeted something about how she wasn't going to say anything about his condition due to "privacy" (which seems to me to be the same as saying something, but I don't think she's all there).

http://i.imgur.com/SYZ8y.gif

[Mota]

From the Observer:

TNA reported that Jesse Sorensen sustained a fractured C-1 vertebrae (upper neck) and spinal cord edema. He is slowly regaining movement in his arms and legs.

Dixie Carter wrote that after TNA speaks with his neurosurgeon they will report more details. She also wrote that they want to thank people for their thoughts and prayers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jim Cornette issued the following tweet when he found out Vince Russo was fired by TNA: “Have I died?!?!?!”

edit to add: – Kurt Angle tweeted the following today: I Visited Jesse Sorenson.He Is Moving His Arms and Legs.Drs’ say 1 Year recovery. I Say 4 Months.Jesse Is a Hero and Fighter. “I’ll Be Back”

[Suicane75]

Russo was not fired. He quit. Dixie was trying very hard to get him to change his mind which just goes to show you that it's the same old, same old. She may be the single dumbest human being on the planet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

She may be the single dumbest human being on the planet.

It is not beyond imagination that she fired him AND then tried to get him to come back.

We are, after all, talking about quite possibly the dumbest person ever associated with professional wrestling past or present.

[molson]

Russo was not fired. He quit. Dixie was trying very hard to get him to change his mind which just goes to show you that it's the same old, same old. She may be the single dumbest human being on the planet.

The idea of a wrestling executive desperately trying to get Vince Russo to come back and work for them sounds like a sick Vince Russo delusion. The fact that it actually happened is pretty funny. I imagine her getting in her car and chasing him around town, leaving flowers and chocolates at his door, and Russo locking himself in the bathroom having a bubble bath. Kind of like in Waiting for Guffman.

[Maple Leafs]

Apparently they're releasing an updated version of the old Wrestlefest arcade game as an iphone app this week.

As you were.

[General Mike]

Apparently they're releasing an updated version of the old Wrestlefest arcade game as an iphone app this week.

As you were.

Nice

[Maple Leafs]

Nice
Nice? The birth of a first child is "nice". This is the return of Wrestlefest!

Seriously, I hope it doesn't suck.

[DeToxRox]

TMZ has a story about singer Chris Brown making nasty comments about CM Punk on Twitter. Punk initially wrote that he wanted to lay out Brown and have him "fight somebody that can defend themselves," an obvious reference to Brown's past with singer Rihanna. Brown wrote back that Punk was on steroids (which is hilarious when you think about it) writing: "Not to mention the roids hes on has made it utterly impossible for him pleasure a women."

[Flasch186]

Well Chris Brown is the one who actually really tried to hurt the other person ;)

[SirFozzie]

Well.. write wade Barrett out of any Wm plans.. maybe ziggler and kofi too. What a train wreck

[General Mike]

Well.. write wade Barrett out of any Wm plans.. maybe ziggler and kofi too. What a train wreck

Ziggler worked the dark match after Raw.

[SegRat]

Wrestlefest is in the app store.

[molson]

Dislocated elbow for Barrett, everyone else was fine.

The Orton concussion thing could end up being really bad too, I'm pretty sure he's had more than 3 of them at this point. The WWE has been lucky not to really have a serious concussion situation since Nowitzki's career ended and since the other sports have stepped up concussion awareness. It looks like they're being careful with him which could result in him being in limbo for a while.

Big Show is racking up quite the damage toll.

[RainMaker]

I can't believe they had Santino thrown out later on right by where Barrett was being treated. Came awfully close to landing on that arm. Knew it was bad when he swore right after and they had to mute it.

[molson]

I can't believe they had Santino thrown out later on right by where Barrett was being treated. Came awfully close to landing on that arm. Knew it was bad when he swore right after and they had to mute it.

The whole thing was surreal. Throwing a guy almost onto EMTs treating a dislocated arm and possible neck injury is something you do on a video game when you're screwing around. Then with all the carnage in front of him, CM Punk on commentary delivers the gem, "this has no bearing on anything but one of the EMTs looks like Rock and Roll Buck Zumoff."

[RainMaker]

I also don't get why they are doing spots like that on Raw near the announcers table. Why not do it on the other side where they have room for error? It just seems unnecessarily dangerous, especially 6 weeks from Wrestlemania.

Also, what's the WWE stance on bullying? They run a PSA every week but had their biggest star get the arena to slut-shame one of the divas. Which is it?

[Toddzilla]

Also, what's the WWE stance on bullying? They run a PSA every week but had their biggest star get the arena to slut-shame one of the divas. Which is it?+1

[Matthean]

WWE's treatment of women over the years was part of the reason I stopped watching.

[bulletsponge]

Cena has always been a bully (by the wwe anti-bullying standards). he always insults and calls people names in his promos. wrestling is basically about bullying and beating up bullys. ironically Cena has consistantly been the biggest "bully" in the wwe for years. he insults everyone and knows he can beat them up, the very definition of a bully. its his character

the wwe anti-bully campaign is sheer shameless pandering for pr

[JonInMiddleGA]

the wwe anti-bully campaign is sheer shameless pandering for pr

Not exactly unique to them however

[dave731]

Not sure if you guys would be interested or not but I need a few more for something I am working on at Utopia (ncaastrategies.com). It is essentially an e-fed that I am putting together to run some simming based on stats given. The sign up form is as follows...If I get enough interest here it could be ran similar to how Smackdown vs. Raw is done where the two promos have their own shows and factions.

Maximum total points for Strength, Speed, Vitality, and Charisma is 45. There will be milestones that allow for point boosts along the way and I will have those posted here as well. The move types can be as follows: random, all around, big man, chair specialist, luchadore, ladder specialist, martial artist, submission expert, suplex master, table specialist, or diva. This is my first time using this software but I did something very similar to this years ago with Smackdown vs. Raw. The benefit with this program is that it generates all commentary for events making life easy for a simmer. It also keeps full track of records and allows for the creation of various titles and match types.

Name:
Hometown:
Face/Heel/Neutral:
Stable (if any):
Ring Intro (theme music):
Weight:
Height:
Move types:
Strength(0-20):
Speed(0-20):
Vitality(0-20):
Charisma(0-20):

[Suicane75]

It's not even the on screen "wrestling angles", that there is bullying involved in that is inherent, it's always been and always will be part of the act. It's the stuff like saddling Mickie James with a fat gimmick because she gained 10 pounds and then firing her. Like Vince mocking Randy Orton for not being big enough when he returned from shoulder surgery. Like the hundreds of backstage incidents of hazing and the company mantra to fuck with and jerk people around incessantly. If you have an ounce of knowledge of how the company works, from Vince on down, the anti-bullying campaign is just preposterous absurdity.

[molson]

Isn't pro wrestling pretend bullying?

I don't know who else supports the anti-bullying thing but I bet there's some actors in there who have played bullies. Of course it's for pr, that's fine, but they do reach the demo that's important to those groups, and they do show up and do speeches and whatnot. I think its a worthy enough cause and I don't think it requires the WWE to attempt to somehow remove all bullying from their programming. Obviously the organizations are fine with the arrangement too.

[molson]

It's not even the on screen "wrestling angles", that there is bullying involved in that is inherent, it's always been and always will be part of the act. It's the stuff like saddling Mickie James with a fat gimmick because she gained 10 pounds and then firing her. Like Vince mocking Randy Orton for not being big enough when he returned from shoulder surgery. Like the hundreds of backstage incidents of hazing and the company mantra to fuck with and jerk people around incessantly. If you have an ounce of knowledge of how the company works, from Vince on down, the anti-bullying campaign is just preposterous absurdity.

Mickie James was a face and laycool were heels. Vince's character is an asshole, has been for years. I'd bet backstage wrestler-on-wrestler hazing is at an all time low, just based on the attitudes of the younger guys compared to how things were in the 70s and 80s. I don't know about any "company mantra to fuck with and jerk people around incessantly", but I wouldn't count a guy getting depushed as "bullying" if that's what you mean. And I don't buy most the stuff people come up with like, "Eugene was giving a retarded gimmick to punish him for something". Most of those things are inferences and educated guesses used to retaliate against booking they don't like. There's some examples reported by more reputable sources, but I wouldn't say that they're all that much different than any wrestling company ever. Except probably a little less bullying, and probably somewhat less drug use (just anecdotally based on what the older guys say about the younger guys)

But really, who cares what charitable organizations the WWE wants to get involved with where both the WWE and the charity are willing participants and they make their own arrangements and concessions based on their own discussions? Why do people get so upset about this stuff? If they book Cena to bully a woman but an organization wants Sheamus to come talk to kids about bullying, and maybe reconcile their product and its fictional content with a real-life message, what's the problem?

[Suicane75]

I'm not upset about it all, I just find it very humorous.

[molson]

I'm not upset about it all, I just find it very humorous.

Pro wrestling without any bullying would be more humorous. Or really, just boring. Even Vince Russo's christian wrestling company had "evil" heels. But the faces usually prevailed, I imagine. I guess I would find it off-putting if the WWE really glorified bullying, like if the faces picked on weak heels who didn't do anything to deserve it and couldn't protect themselves, all to huge ovations, but they really don't do that. They book pretty traditionally, but with glossier production values and worse promos.

[Mota]

There's also a huge difference between a bully character, and the real bullying that happens in the WWE.

Look at Jim Ross. This guy is humiliated in his hometown all the time. They do all kinds of stuff to him live without warning. The last time they fired him, he wasn't even aware it was going to happen.

That's what really offends me. Same with the treatment of Vickie Guerrero, Jerry Lawler was teasing her about her weight well after she had lost a ton of weight and probably was smaller than Lawler. But he kept on pushing the button over and over again.

The fact that monster heel X is a bully is just part of the storyline, and hopefully he gets it in the end. That's what we pay to see.

[Suicane75]

Yeah, I'm not talking about the angles. I'm talking about the real life stuff.

[RainMaker]

I understand that part of the act involves bullying. I just think it sometimes goes too far or is unnecessary. I didn't see any point in Cena starting up a chant for her last night. They could have gotten the point across just fine without the slut shaming (kissing and flirting makes you a hoe in WWE world apparently). The message I took from it is that it's cool to shame someone like that.

I thought the LayCool thing with Mickie James was stupid too. But I understood they were heels and if anything the message was that they were evil and wrong. Seemed a little too much considering how touchy the issue is for young women and the fact that Mickie has a perfectly healthy body.

I think it can be done tastefully. I didn't think last night's was. It seemed like an unnecessary bit to appease Vince. Not to mention that with such a young audience it doesn't seem smart to direct these toward women. If you're going to do the anti-bullying campaign, don't try and make it seem cool a few minutes later.

[RainMaker]

CM Punk responded to Chris Brown and challenged him to a fight.

Twitvid (http://www.twitvid.com/4CAPE)

Also thought Cena's promo on the Rock was really good and I wish they'd let him use that character more and drop the cheesy crap he uses 90% of the time.

[Maple Leafs]

CM Punk responded to Chris Brown and challenged him to a fight.

Twitvid (http://www.twitvid.com/4CAPE)

Wait, so in CM Punk's world, women are respected and revered?

Did he quit professional wrestling?

[Suicane75]

If you have a problem that the law can't solve, perhaps you should hire The A-ce Team.

<object height="360" width="640">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9JEXWE5NgAo&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="360" width="640"></object> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JEXWE5NgAo&feature=player_embedded)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Saw this floating around today, attributed to Wrestling Observer

The early word on the TNA Against All Odds pay-per-view is that the show drew around 7,000 buys.

Just wow.

[jbergey22]

Saw this floating around today, attributed to Wrestling Observer



Just wow.


What were they getting at their all time best? I really have the slightest idea what they were getting or what say the WWE Wrestlemania gets for buy rates.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What were they getting at their all time best? I really have the slightest idea what they were getting or what say the WWE Wrestlemania gets for buy rates.

Of course there's mostly only "sources" that float numbers around that aren't confirmed or denied officially but ... 2010 buyrates were generally believed to average about 10k for regular PPV's, as high as 30k for Bound for Glory.

By 2011, BFG was being cited as 20k-25k, so a drop to 7k is pretty much in line with that I guess.

By comparison, here's the latest from the 2011 WWE earnings report
WWE Hell in a Cell – 182,000 (compared to 210,000 in 2010)
WWE Vengeance – 121,000 (compared to 137,000 as Bragging Rights in 2010)
Survivor Series 2011 – 281,000 (compared to 244,000 in 2010)
WWE TLC – 179,000 (compared to 195,000 in 2010)

[jbergey22]

Of course there's mostly only "sources" that float numbers around that aren't confirmed or denied officially but ... 2010 buyrates were generally believed to average about 10k for regular PPV's, as high as 30k for Bound for Glory.

By 2011, BFG was being cited as 20k-25k, so a drop to 7k is pretty much in line with that I guess.

By comparison, here's the latest from the 2011 WWE earnings report
WWE Hell in a Cell – 182,000 (compared to 210,000 in 2010)
WWE Vengeance – 121,000 (compared to 137,000 as Bragging Rights in 2010)
Survivor Series 2011 – 281,000 (compared to 244,000 in 2010)
WWE TLC – 179,000 (compared to 195,000 in 2010)

Wow, that is substantial. I wonder if they will be able to keep up operations much longer. They had a decent product and changed it to try to compete with the WWE and now they probably screwed themselves.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wow, that is substantial. I wonder if they will be able to keep up operations much longer.

For ever how long Daddy wants (and is able) to keep his dumbass daughter busy to keep her away from the family business.

There's really never been much of a financial justification for TNA's existence.

[Suicane75]

I honestly would love to hear someone in TNA explain their business model to me. They seem to have no interest in PPV and have been content with the same ratings for what seems like a decade now. I get why Dixies dad is letting her have a play toy but I'd so much love to hear her explain what the goal of TNA is.

[molson]

So TNA Impact gets around 1/3 of the TV viewers that RAW does, but only about 5% of the PPV buys of a bad WWE PPV. That's crazy. It's definitely the different booking philosophy. TNA treats a PPV as just another show, and they often use it to set up big matches on free TV. And maybe the fact that TV is the biggest show they have helps their TV ratings, who knows. Maybe 1/3 the TV and 5% of the buyrates is better than 1/5 of the TV and 15% of the buyrates. PPV is dying out, I think they're smart not to depend on it, if that's what they're consciously doing.

I think they should do a TNA gimmick PPV where the audience is all 7,000 people that bought the last PPV. Fly them in and everything.

[Mota]

I agree with you there, Molson. I think they treat PPV as an annoyance that comes every 4 weeks and interrupts their TV.
I don't buy TNA PPV but half the time the main event is redone on Impact the following week, it's ridiculous how poorly they treat PPV buyers.

[jbergey22]

It is impressive how the Rock can come back and have the crowd eating up everything he says. I swear I havent heard a WWE crowd that hot for 10 years.

[SirFozzie]

except the rock got his ass verbally destroyed by Cena last night.

[jbergey22]

except the rock got his ass verbally destroyed by Cena last night.

MY DVR cut off right as Cena got to the ring. I set it to go 10 minutes longer and its still not long enough a lot of times for RAW.

[cmp]

except the rock got his ass verbally destroyed by Cena last night.

Still didn't change the crowd though.

[cmp]

They've actually made Cena interesting again with this feud. That in itself makes this feud a success.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rock v Cena, Jericho v Punk ... has there ever been more promo skill going head to head at once? I don't think they're all at their best right now, but the potential for any of them to hit a prodigious homerun is there every time they grab a mic.

None of them are Flair at his best IMO but I don't know there's been a better promo'ing foursome all actively engaged at the same time in any promotion.

Austin/DX/Rock maybe worth consideration but I don't recall a 4th participant that was their equal at the time. NWO storyline didn't lend itself to having people come across as equals.

Who/what am I leaving out here?

[Toddzilla]

except the rock got his ass verbally destroyed by Cena last night.That was shocking to say the least - Cena absolutely owned the Rock - and the quip about the notes on his wrist made be LOveryL

[Comey]

That was shocking to say the least - Cena absolutely owned the Rock - and the quip about the notes on his wrist made be LOveryL

I thought he did last year, for a few weeks running. A lot of people don't give Cena credit for last year's promos against The Rock, but I thought they were extraordinary. And I'm a massive Rock mark. Cena has consistently destroyed him. The Rock has not adjusted to the times, and seems lost in it.

[SirFozzie]

Well, I'm sure at least some of it is thaey don't want the guy who's going to be with the company after WM to be massively booed, so the Rock is taking it easy on him, and Rock really doesn't have to do much to get the crowd eating out of his palm..

it's more an attempt to build Cena up then tear Rock down.

[Suicane75]

Agree with Comey on Cena although I wouldn't say he's destroying The Rock. Holding his own for sure however. When Cena brings out his harder edge character he's usually awesome. The problem is that the night after Wrestlemania he'll be back to cracking poop jokes and being the goofy go along guy.

The whole WM card is shaping up pretty good both quality and angle wise. I think all top 4 matches have the potential to be very good in ring and intriguing as to who will go over.

Monday morning booking however is making me wish they'd gone with Henry or Big Show being built as the monster going after Bryan and pairing Sheamus off with the other one, but whatevs, Bryan can get a great match out of any of em.

[Mota]

Who would've thought that Daniel Bryan would be World Heavyweight Champion for FIVE months? That's insane. I thought he was going to be a 2-3 week champion based on how they were booking him.

I'm really enjoying the character, not especially the vegan part but I think he's very successful as the guy that the fans want to see get his butt kicked. He's not a coward character either, he goes face to face with Big Show or Mark Henry before those "barely escapes" moments. Very cool.

[bulletsponge]

plus his in ring GF is so fucking sexy

[CU Tiger]

came here just to see the reaction to the rock's promo...disappointed in no buzz.

[RainMaker]

I think all the storylines have been really bad. Rock-Cena is still a must watch, but they are trying hard to kill all the buzz going into it.

[Mota]

Scary that one year ago, they were doing 3.8 - 3.9 ratings and pushing for a 4.0 with the Rock there as a special guest referee.

This year with Rock in the main event, they're doing 3.2 - 3.3.

All that work Cena has been doing in the last year to drag down the Rock and tell us why we should hate him for not being there. All that work Rock does to tell us why Cena is fruity like a bowl of cereal is also working. They've both been brought down instead of elevated.

I thought the CM Punk / Jericho segment this week was FINALLY something to make the match memorable. Two great talkers and storytellers and they were doing the most generic build to WM ever. I'm anxious to see what they have in store for us next week!

[Mota]

Dola

These guys haven't been allowed to say the word wrestler, or belt, or a million other things that McMahon doesn't like.

They should also not be allowed to use a wrestler's negatives as a talking point, ever. That never works. Ric Flair was great at that at his peak. He took a midcarder and would cower in front of him and make him look like a main eventer. He'd get his Four Horsemen to run interference. And then he'd make the guy look like a star before he'd beat him, which in turn made himself look better.

If you take a main eventer and make him look like a midcarder, when you beat him, you just beat a midcarder. That happens way too much these days, and there's lots of guys that are guilty of that.

[DeToxRox]

WM spoiler, be advised

Meltzer is reporting Brock signed a one year deal with WWE. It sounds like it's very much a part time type schedule but he'll work more than Taker

[jbergey22]

Completely agree with you Mota.

They were able to somehow drop the ball on Cena/Rock and make people not interested at all. Too long of a hype period with very little of importance happening in between. Punk and Jericho will steal the show so I am pumped about that.

[DeToxRox]

Take this for what it is worth

Front Row Brian as he goes on Twitter is incredibly well connected in the MMA world. He has broken a ton of stories on his twitter well before anyone else has them. He is reporting this today:

<Exclusive> Breaking News... Brock Lesnar's WWE deal is for 1 year, 15 appearances and 5 million dollars.

[kingfc22]

That was one entertaining match between HHH and Undertaker.

[Matthean]

Reading spoilers via online, but sounds like the crowd is hating the Cena/The Rock match.

[jbergey22]

It was a decent match I thought. I think it is ridiculous how many kickouts we see from finishers in Wrestlemania. Abusing it so much that now its not even a big deal from kicking out on a finisher. So many times they feel the need to take the tradition out of wrestling.

[Neon_Chaos]

Surprised by the winner of the Rock-Cena match. But not complaining. :)

[BYU 14]

It was a decent match I thought. I think it is ridiculous how many kickouts we see from finishers in Wrestlemania.

+ 1, 2......OH!!!!

[kingfc22]

+ 1, 2......OH!!!!

I don't mind it too much as long as the guys in the ring can pull it off. Plus it is WrestleMania.

[jbergey22]

I don't mind it too much as long as the guys in the ring can pull it off. Plus it is WrestleMania.

I just think they go a little over the top with it. And Cole says the same thing almost everytime when you know he will kick out at 2 3/4.

[RainMaker]

Anyone know why they did that to Bryan? Did he fail a drug test or something?

[Atocep]

I just think they go a little over the top with it. And Cole says the same thing almost everytime when you know he will kick out at 2 3/4.

Followed by the same astonished look from the wrestler that did the finisher.

[Matthean]

Ha do you smell what the rock is cooking? Its john cena served up with brodus clays mommas stu with a side of shawn Michael's lazy eye


This could also go in the FB post fail thread.

[bulletsponge]

Anyone know why they did that to Bryan? Did he fail a drug test or something?

Mcmahon wanted to shit on him for getting over with the fans without his permission

[Atocep]

I watched the HHH/Undertaker match, the Punk/Jericho match, and the Rock/Cena match. I liked all 3 matches although the Taker/HHH match really stood out.

The Rock/Cena match couldn't have possibly lived up to what people were hoping to see and it seemed like the crowd was having a tough time getting into it because there was too much time between action. Watching someone in a submission drag the other wrestler to the ropes to break it for what seemed like the 1,000th time during the PPV and then watching the Rock and Cena lay on the mat for a couple of minutes over and over again took the air out of the match IMO. It was still an entertaining match and I'm surprised they let the Rock win.

[Comey]

A friend of mine, who used to work for WWE Creative, believes this was a message to the current generation that they aren't doing the job. Every single winner tonight was from the old generation (save Punk, who appears to be the exception). Even the women couldn't escape it (where a TV host went over).

Dark days are ahead for the company.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Every single winner tonight was from the old generation (save Punk, who appears to be the exception)

Umm... Sheamus.

While technically there wasn't an old gen wrestler in that one, they did let a new gen guy go over, claiming the #2 belt in the company in the bargain at that.

[Matthean]

Umm... Sheamus.

While technically there wasn't an old gen wrestler in that one, they did let a new gen guy go over, claiming the #2 belt in the company in the bargain at that.

In asinine fashion.

[jbergey22]

A friend of mine, who used to work for WWE Creative, believes this was a message to the current generation that they aren't doing the job. Every single winner tonight was from the old generation (save Punk, who appears to be the exception). Even the women couldn't escape it (where a TV host went over).

Dark days are ahead for the company.

Easy to blame the workers when creative is the bigger problem. Build and bury is their theme.

I guess it is good news that they are figuring out things arent working so hopefully changes are on the way. I think they forget that people want the drama but they dont want everything so over the top anymore. It worked for awhile but that time has passed. Lets get it back to being a staged sport 1st and add the soap opera aspects later.

[Matthean]

Easy to blame the workers when creative is the bigger problem. Build and bury is their theme.

Even if they are getting buried, how many of them actually put together the better matches from last night? In terms of quality of match, HHH vs. Undertaker seems to be the winner.

[jbergey22]

Even if they are getting buried, how many of them actually put together the better matches from last night? In terms of quality of match, HHH vs. Undertaker seems to be the winner.

Yeah they put on the best match. Undertaker has owned the past few wrestlemanias. I am just saying that it is hard for them to create another UT/HHH type when guys are constantly getting pushed/buried. I mean whats up with Randy Orton right now? He was over for awhile and now hes losing to Kane? I just really dont understand what the bookers are after.

I dont think the wrestling is the actual problem. Fans are just confused by the entire product. Shameus looked to be getting over, then he sucked for a year, now he holds the #2 belt in the company.

[Toddzilla]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if Zach Ryder was given a year off to do nothing but plan one match and film a few promos, he'd have a 5-star match, too.

[Comey]

Yeah they put on the best match. Undertaker has owned the past few wrestlemanias. I am just saying that it is hard for them to create another UT/HHH type when guys are constantly getting pushed/buried. I mean whats up with Randy Orton right now? He was over for awhile and now hes losing to Kane? I just really dont understand what the bookers are after.

I dont think the wrestling is the actual problem. Fans are just confused by the entire product. Shameus looked to be getting over, then he sucked for a year, now he holds the #2 belt in the company.

Sheamus was buried because the guy who is the head of RAW hated him. Once he got moved to Smackdown, they began to build him back up. Kind of odd how that worked.

[Mota]

I think the kick-ass heel Sheamus is way better than the "joking about uncle Rufus" face. I don't feel he has that much momentum right now either, he certainly doesn't feel like a Royal Rumble winner.

Congrats on HHH and Undertaker for putting on another great match, I didn't think they could do it but they pulled it off. Even Cena / Rock had a good match, I certainly was not expecting them to go 30 minutes.

But it was definitely a boneheaded move to take the best modern worker in the business (Daniel Bryan) and destroy him in 18 seconds. I think he needed to be strong in his loss since he'd been staying alive every week via fluke. In his loss they needed to prove that he's still a darned good wrestler. Instead he has become the Honky Tonk Man and they're going to have to rehabilitate him big time.

[Neon_Chaos]

I find it mildly calming that John Cena has lost his past two WrestleMania matches.

[bulletsponge]

the fans are chanting Daniel Bryan all night on RAW. and even "YES!!" chants even during other matches. Now Sheamus comes out to a chorus of boos

[cmp]

Best RAW I've seen since the Attitude era. The crowd made this show amazing tonight.

[Mota]

I hope the plan isn't to do Brock Lesnar against Cena. The WWE is trying so hard to get the fans to cheer for Cena, often to the detriment of the overall product. But then they book him against guys that they KNOW will get cheered over him. CM Punk after the big angle, then The Rock, and possibly now Lesnar. If they want to get Cena to turn heel then DO IT ALREADY, if not then book him against unlikeable guys like Alberto Del Rio where maybe he'll get some cheers instead of getting booed out of the arena. No matter what they say, when your #1 face star gets booed by 80% of the crowd, it can't be good for the product.

[Comey]

It's alleged that Lesnar is set to work with Taker and eventually Rock down the line, over the WWE title (as Lesnar's deal runs through WM next year). With Austin/Punk picking up more steam for WM29, this seems to be the other big match.

[Toddzilla]

wow, Lesnar looked doughy

[cmp]

I hope the plan isn't to do Brock Lesnar against Cena. The WWE is trying so hard to get the fans to cheer for Cena, often to the detriment of the overall product. But then they book him against guys that they KNOW will get cheered over him. CM Punk after the big angle, then The Rock, and possibly now Lesnar. If they want to get Cena to turn heel then DO IT ALREADY, if not then book him against unlikeable guys like Alberto Del Rio where maybe he'll get some cheers instead of getting booed out of the arena. No matter what they say, when your #1 face star gets booed by 80% of the crowd, it can't be good for the product.

Cena vs. Del Rio would so unbearably boring. The 80% that boos him would cheer for Del Rio in that situation though. The boos for Cena are not going away.

[Apathetic Lurker]

I think the kick-ass heel Sheamus is way better than the "joking about uncle Rufus" face. I don't feel he has that much momentum right now either, he certainly doesn't feel like a Royal Rumble winner.

Congrats on HHH and Undertaker for putting on another great match, I didn't think they could do it but they pulled it off. Even Cena / Rock had a good match, I certainly was not expecting them to go 30 minutes.

But it was definitely a boneheaded move to take the best modern worker in the business (Daniel Bryan) and destroy him in 18 seconds. I think he needed to be strong in his loss since he'd been staying alive every week via fluke. In his loss they needed to prove that he's still a darned good wrestler. Instead he has become the Honky Tonk Man and they're going to have to rehabilitate him big time.

Could have been an unknown injury to Bryan so they sped it up......

[bulletsponge]

during Cenas promo he mentioned how the fans thought he might turn on them after the lose. that got more cheers than anything else he said. the fans want him to turn badly, i know i do, but the managment wont let him. theyre taking the short term profits over long term potential $$

i do feel though that this all might be leading to a turn. a slow turn where he eventually gets frustrated with losing big matches and goes to the dark side

[molson]

during Cenas promo he mentioned how the fans thought he might turn on them after the lose. that got more cheers than anything else he said. the fans want him to turn badly, i know i do, but the managment wont let him. theyre taking the short term profits over long term potential $$

i do feel though that this all might be leading to a turn. a slow turn where he eventually gets frustrated with losing big matches and goes to the dark side

It's funny (and interesting, and challenging) how they're booking for two different fanbases. They know that not turning Cena heel keeps him heel with that fanbase, and that turning him heel would actually turn him face with those fans. They've been playing around with that phenomenon on and off since 2006 (putting him ECW arena against RVD, against Edge in Toronto, against CM Punk in Chicago). It's not like 1992 and editing out the boos Hogan got. This is part of the act, by design. They want you to boo him and get excited for Rock and Lesnar and Punk before that. He is a heel, by defnition, with those fans, because they show up to see Cena get his comeuppance.

And I think they've also figured out that the way to get somebody over with that fanbase is to make them feel like their guy has been "wronged" or "held back". Punk was way more popular before they really pushed him, and now Bryan's taken over that role as the "guy who's being wronged". It's hard to judge by the Miami fans as those are the crazies that flew in all over the country for Mania and then went to that Raw, but I'm positive they knew what this would do for Bryan. Him losing in 17 seconds by fluke was way better for him than what everyone expected - the regular-old 10-minute coronation where Sheamus decisively wins at the end. It might of sucked for him that night, and for the fans that wanted to see that match, and it was risky to do this at Mania, and I get that, but he's getting a ton of love out of it now and I don't think that's an accident.

[RainMaker]

Umm... Sheamus.

While technically there wasn't an old gen wrestler in that one, they did let a new gen guy go over, claiming the #2 belt in the company in the bargain at that.
I guess I was disappointed that they didn't showcase him. I mean Brodus Clay got more time than him. Seemed like a great opportunity to put on a solid match and put Sheamus over. This looked like a gimmick and completely cheapened the belt even more than it already is. Just didn't make a lot of sense.

It does seem like WWE is a good position forward as long as they can center their product around guys who wrestled 10-15 years ago.

[Mota]

After thinking about it for a while, Molson may have gotten it right. Maybe Cena is the Bret Hart heel where he was a face in Canada but heel everywhere else. Still seems they're trying to get him a face reaction though but that could be a part of it. Or maybe we're looking waay deeper into this than the WWE and he's just lame

[RainMaker]

I don't think he's Bret Hart. I'd say more like Hogan before he turned heel.

[Maple Leafs]

If Cena turns heels, all the kids/girls who love him will be disappointed and all the guys who say they want him to go heel will complain that it wasn't done right.

He gets the biggest reaction on every show -- why would they change him up now?

[Suicane75]

I don't think the problem is that he needs to turn heel. I think the problem is that he needs to become a face adult men can get behind.

[Suicane75]

IE: Lesnar comes out looking like a monster badass and has this air of destruction to him and each time they cut to Cena he was clapping and smiling like the same fucking goof he's been for the past 5 years.

[RainMaker]

They don't really have to turn Cena heel. He already is heel. Acting like a babyface in front of all the boos is what makes him a good heel.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rest in peace Chief :(

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/sports/joe-scarpa-who-gained-wrestling-
fame-as-chief-jay-strongbow-dies.html

[molson]

I heard something weird about Jay Strongbow just last week on some podcast. I think Bryan Alvarez was interviewing an ex-WWF writer, he said there was this whole plan in place for Gary Hart to come to the WWF, manage Earthquake against Hogan, put Hogan out of commission for a while with an injury angle, and then Hart would have a stable of heels that he'd throw at the Ultimate Warrior. A real high profile role. Hart was ready to go and flew in for the tapings to kick it off. But Strongbow was the top WWF agent at the time, and he hated Hart with a passion, for some reason (it was something that happened in the 60s somewhere, I think). So he sabatoged the whole thing - changed Hart's hotel reservations, changed his rental cars - somehow Hart ended up at the arena anyway, but found out that Strongbow had being talking shit about him, and had changed all of his travel plans. So Hart walked out before his debut, and never worked for the WWF......(they had negotiations a few years later, once Strongbow was out of the picture, for Hart to manage Umaga - in the style of Hart/Abdullah the Butcher - but Hart decided not to do it - I think he was just too old by then and didn't want to travel and be on TV). I had never heard any of that before last week, and the whole thing sounded awesome (though I'm a Hart/WCCW fan)

Ah well, nobody can hold a grudge like an old-timey wrestler, I've heard more than one example of that.

[BYU 14]

Damn another legend gone, RIP Chief.

At least he made it to his later years though. God I miss wrestling of the 70's/80's!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Some stuff never changes. This time Scott Hall goes on a multi-day drinking binge & then allegedly tries to drag his girlfriend out of the car by her throat.

Breaking Update: Why Scott Hall Was Arrested | TNAWrestlingNews.com (http://www.tnawrestlingnews.com/headlines/breaking-update-why-scott-hall-was-arrested/)

[molson]

I just hope Hall dies before he kills someone else (either a girlfriend, or a drunk/drugged up driving thing).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pro wrestler Buff Bagwell seriously injured in wreck *| ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/pro-wrestler-buff-bagwell-1425460.html)

[JonInMiddleGA]

WWE announced today that Oscar Gutierrez aka Rey Mysterio has been suspended for 60 days for his second Wellness violation.

[Mota]

Isn't it crazy how all the little guys (Mysterio, Evan Bourne) get suspended while all the veiny muscleheads seem to be clean? How does that happen?

[Comey]

Natural selection.

[molson]

I'm no steroids expert, but the guys with muscles way too big for their small frames (Mysterio, Benoit, Guerrero), I always saw as way more obvious hardcore steroid abusers than the muscular guys with the bigger frames. Guys like Mason Ryan would still be huge (though not quite as huge) even if they were clean, whereas Mysterio and Benoit just completely obliterated nature. And Mysterio of course, was one of the guys named in the Sports Illustrated article a few years back for getting mail-order 'roids.

I'm sure most of the guys use something but just like in MMA, you just have to know when your tests are and cycle on and and off. Mysterio probably got surprised by a test since he hasn't come back to TV yet.

[Toddzilla]

Mysterio to TNA in 3...2...

[molson]

Mysterio to TNA in 3...2...

What's Mysterious O.G. doing in the Impact Zone?!

[RainMaker]

I'm no steroids expert, but the guys with muscles way too big for their small frames (Mysterio, Benoit, Guerrero), I always saw as way more obvious hardcore steroid abusers than the muscular guys with the bigger frames. Guys like Mason Ryan would still be huge (though not quite as huge) even if they were clean, whereas Mysterio and Benoit just completely obliterated nature. And Mysterio of course, was one of the guys named in the Sports Illustrated article a few years back for getting mail-order 'roids.

I'm sure most of the guys use something but just like in MMA, you just have to know when your tests are and cycle on and and off. Mysterio probably got surprised by a test since he hasn't come back to TV yet.

I don't know. It's a lot easier to look big when you are short. Less muscle needed to do so. I don't know how Ryback is clean. That seems way too unnatural.

[Mota]

It doesn't surprise me that Rey has been doing it. His body really changed over the years. And of course the roids-by-mail scandal that he got caught in also would be an indicator. ;)

Also a guy like Mason Ryan would not be a surprise either. These guys are on the road constantly. It's hard to find hours every day to work out, and somehow some guys on the roster are just HUGE.

[molson]

Speaking of steroids, check out this photo of the Rock on the set of the movie he's filming now:

http://blogimages.thescore.com/aftermath/files/2012/04/the-rock-wahlberg.jpg

I don't know 100% that it's not photoshopped, I just got it off the Wrestlingobserver site that implied its recent (and Rock is filming a movie with wahlberg right now). I mean, it's not even a month since Mania.

The steroids thing with wrestling is kind of weird, I mean, nobody cares if Rock roids up for acting. It's not like wrestling is a competitive sport. They do need to cut back on wrestlers' hearts exploding, and maybe the occasional testing keeps everyone just honest enough to for that to happen.

It does tell you too that wrestling is in a different place than say, 1988, in that Rock would hold back on his physique until his pro wrestling match is over.

[RainMaker]

That has to be a weird angle or something. I don't even think you can gain that kind of mass on steroids in a month.

[molson]

FWIW, Meltzer says Mysterio tested positive for amphetamines. Meltzer speculated that may have been some kind of weight loss supplement. He tested positive in February, the WWE still wanted him to work Mania, but then when it turned out he couldn't because he was still injured, they waited until he was close to coming back to suspend him.

[Mota]

Wow, I think that rule is just nuts. We really care about your health ... well, after Wrestlemania. Now we care. Really.

[DeToxRox]

There was an Extreme Reunion tonight and of course, it was basically a disaster save for an apparently awesome Jerry Lynn/Devon Storm match. This morning Sabu was find in his hotel room basically unresponsive so he was rushed to the ER, scrapping the Main Event between he and Shane Douglas. Then Justin Credible was told to leave because he was in bad condition backstage during the show, which was probably the shows saving grace as we was supposed to be the fine facing Lynn in the first place.

For those who care, the Main Event became 2 Cold Scorpio vs Shane Douglas and ended with a masked man run in which turned out to be Todd Gordon. The crowd, which was allegedly 2100, was chanting 'refund' throughout the night, which is an awful sign for the guys behind the show seeing as the plan is to turn the Reunion into a promotion, using tonight as a way to kick off some angles for the future.

[Matthean]

That has to be a weird angle or something. I don't even think you can gain that kind of mass on steroids in a month.

+1.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/25/article-0-12C0A337000005DC-885_634x708.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2134781/Outgunned-Mark-Wahlberg-cooked-Rock-set-bodybuilding-movie.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yikes. That looks more like Batista in body makeup than Rock.

[Mota]

I think it may be an old picture from a few months ago? Apparently there was a pic of Rock circulating around before Wrestlemania where he looked like that as well.

[PilotMan]

WTF is with the Zubazz? That picture looks like it's from 1991!

[Atocep]

WTF is with the Zubazz? That picture looks like it's from 1991!

The movie they're filming is about bodybuilders in Florida.

[molson]

There was an Extreme Reunion tonight and of course, it was basically a disaster save for an apparently awesome Jerry Lynn/Devon Storm match. This morning Sabu was find in his hotel room basically unresponsive so he was rushed to the ER, scrapping the Main Event between he and Shane Douglas. Then Justin Credible was told to leave because he was in bad condition backstage during the show, which was probably the shows saving grace as we was supposed to be the fine facing Lynn in the first place.

For those who care, the Main Event became 2 Cold Scorpio vs Shane Douglas and ended with a masked man run in which turned out to be Todd Gordon. The crowd, which was allegedly 2100, was chanting 'refund' throughout the night, which is an awful sign for the guys behind the show seeing as the plan is to turn the Reunion into a promotion, using tonight as a way to kick off some angles for the future.

I think I might have to buy this show on IPPV, though the release of that was delayed, they're saying this week sometime.

I've heard attendance numbers as high as 2,400 for that show, which is ridiculous, that rivals some Smackdown TV tapings, and I think it's the highest indy show attendance in the U.S. in a long time. People had to know what they were getting. Maybe they showed up too sober.

Edit: Justin Credible tweeted this picture of Sabu after they found in him the hotel room (not graphic, just a passed out old guy)....Of course, as you said, Credible was asked to leave, though he did wander around in crowd towards the end of the show.

http://wrestleshare.com/images/262sabu_hotel_room.jpg

[DeToxRox]

Booking of the ME aside, Bryan/Sheamus, Punk/Jericho and Brock/Cena were all fucking amazing.

[BYU 14]

WTF is with the Zubazz? That picture looks like it's from 1991!

LOL, I have a pair of those white Tiger stripe Zubazz, our staff wore them at a game this season for some stupide reason nobody has figured out still. :)

[BYU 14]

Edit: Justin Credible tweeted this picture of Sabu after they found in him the hotel room (not graphic, just a passed out old guy)....Of course, as you said, Credible was asked to leave, though he did wander around in crowd towards the end of the show.

http://wrestleshare.com/images/262sabu_hotel_room.jpg

Damn, Sabu looks like shit and the sad thing is probably has nowhere near enough money to stop wrestling, destined to be another like Jake Roberts.

[molson]

Booking of the ME aside, Bryan/Sheamus, Punk/Jericho and Brock/Cena were all fucking amazing.

That show blew Wrestlemania away, wow.

I was genuinely surprised by the ending, but it worked, it was an amazing match, and Cena actually won over the Chicago fans. It sounds like he's taking some time off, and I can see the logic of sending him off like that instead of just in a crumbled defeated heap.

It's a risky way to handle Lesnar's debut match, but I guess he'll be even angrier now. The paint-by-numbers Lesnar ascension to next year's Mania could have been fun and might have drawn, but now, I can't wait to see what he does next. I hope they can keep up with his various demands and eccentricities for as long as possible, because he is an incredible performer. I wonder if maybe they wanted to get the first loss out of the way so he doesn't hold them up for more money before some big match in the future. I mean, he still could do that, but he has a little less leverage than he would if he was say, undefeated going into a Mania match with the Rock next year.

I even liked Ryback's squash match. The two skinny jobbers chanting "two is greater than one!" 5 or 6 times before Ryback's music hit was one of the funniest jobber moments in years.

[RainMaker]

Sent that photo to a friend of mine who is big into lifting and he says it's definitely bloat from a cycle.

I also thought it was a great PPV. Thoroughly enjoyed DB/Sheamus as that is the match we should have gotten at Mania. Not sure if they should have had Cena go over, especially if he is leaving. You've sort of killed the hype around Lesnar quickly and didn't gain much.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cena files for divorce against HS sweetheart wife (of three years). She's hired Linda Hogan's lawyer but faces an uphill battle against a tough pre-nup.
insider warns that this isn't going to be pretty, saying "This is going to dwarf the Hogan divorce in nastiness."
WWE superstar John Cena files for divorce; wife hires Miami attorney | Scene in the Tropics (http://blogs.herald.com/scene_in_the_tropics/2012/05/wwe-superstar-jon-cena-files-for-divorce-wife-hires-miami-attorney.html)

[Maple Leafs]

Those duelling "Let's Go Cena / Cena Sucks" chants are going to be awkward coming from a jury box.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well it may not be a hit movie but TNA has managed to get a little success in another media.

Debuting on this week's Rock radio chart, at #47 is "Longnecks & Rednecks" by Serg Salinas. That's James Storm's new theme music.

The artist btw, better known to wrestling fans as Mr. Dixie Carter. The video features country stars Montgomery Gentry (as well as Big & Rich running buddy Cowboy Troy) but they're only acting, not singing.

It's probably worth noting how little it takes to break into the Rock (as opposed to Active Rock) chart these days ... the song garned 3 spins on a reporting station last week, most likely coming from a station that airs syndicated John Boy & Billy as their morning show. (same thing has happened a few times with novelty songs featured on Bob & Tom)

Video embedded in the tag so as not to hang/slow the thread
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8hhGKdalPh4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Mota]

Good news:
Daniel Bryan has really elevated himself over the past few months. He's getting huge reactions out of both the casuals and the hardcore. It's great to see, since he's also a great worker and a great talker. Those of us who've followed him over the years knew that he was the real thing. I view him as this era's Bret Hart (minus the family legacy).

Also been some great matches in wrestling in the past few months.

Bad news has been the storytelling. John Cena has simply been a repulsive character. The Brock Lesnar storyline has been a disaster. But what a great match between them. They've totally sucked all the wind out of that sail though.

I'm really looking forward to watching the Davey Richards / Michael Elgin match which supposedly is the strongest match of the year to date. I've seen Elgin at shows with 50 people, it's nice to see him moving up in the wrestling world.

I'm quite a bit behind on my TNA viewing but I've also heard they've been doing some good stuff with a lot of the characters even though the show as a whole still has some flaws. Austin Aries really is great, Bully Ray has been a fantastic heel. I haven't seen enough of Bobby Roode to comment on how he's been doing as champ.

[molson]

3 hours for every RAW is bad news, though it will net them something like $30 million the first year. It will be tough to fill the time though. I was hoping someday they'd get past the idea that every guy has to be on every single RAW, but now there's no chance of that at all. So many guys are ridiculously overexposed, the shelf life on wrestlers and angles is minuscule. Send Cena on tour for a year around the world, have him headline shows in every corner of the globe, it'll make money, you'll promote the brand and when he comes back, he'll be much more fresh.

Plenty of good news too. I can't believe so many people just take these Bryan/Punk WWE matches and characters for granted, it's still insane to me they're getting all this time on TV and PPV. But I think fans are already getting a little tired of Punk, which is going to happen when a guy's on TV 8 times a month so matter how good he is or how he's booked.

[molson]

I always like reading about the WWE shows overseas, like how the fans go apeshit in Dubai, etc, and then sometimes you have a little "cultural misunderstanding" like this (from TMZ):

A WWE event in Brazil came to a screeching halt Thursday evening ... when local law enforcement stopped a live match and threatened to arrest Chris Jericho for desecrating the Brazilian flag.

It all went down during a match between Jericho and C.M. Punk -- who was proudly waving the flag in the ring. Jericho took the flag away, crumpled it up and kicked the flag out of the ring ... and that's when police stepped in and put a stop to the event.

We're told Jericho was informed that desecrating the national flag is a crime in Brazil ... punishable by incarceration.

Cops gave Jericho an option -- apologize to the arena ... or go to jail. Chris chose the former ... grabbing the mic and telling the crowd he immediately regretted his actions. Cops allowed the event to continue.

Sources connected to the WWE tell TMZ ... the flag stunt was NOT planned or approved by WWE officials.

The WWE has just released an official statement saying, "Chris Jericho has been suspended indefinitely due to an irresponsible act of denigrating the Brazilian flag at a WWE event in Sao Paulo on May 24. The WWE has apologized to the citizens and the government of Brazil for this incident."

[Mota]

More weird stuff going on.

Randy Orton suspended for 60 days for his 2nd drug failure. How long has the WWE known about this, because they've had Orton in nowhere land for months now. Considering he's supposed to be their #2 star, he hasn't done anything worth talking about in AGES. Boring interviews, boring matches and boring feuds. This guy is way better than that. He'll have 60 days to refocus.

2.7 rating for Raw this week. That's a horrible rating.

Really, I think it shows that the WWE needs to try something different. As much as he's the biggest star in the company, John Cena can't main event every PPV. Even if you're a top draw, you can exhaust your benefit to a company. I always compare it to UFC, if they had GSP on every PPV, he wouldn't be able to draw 800K - 1M on every match.

Also, Kane needs to retire, or to be retired. Miz needs to go away for a long time.

Now take Dolph Ziggler and make him a main eventer. The roster has never been so thin, and he's ready. It's time.

I love the cover for the WWE 13 game. WIth emphasis on the Attitude era, it might sell better than the past few versions.

[bulletsponge]

More weird stuff going on.

Randy Orton suspended for 60 days for his 2nd drug failure. How long has the WWE known about this, because they've had Orton in nowhere land for months now. Considering he's supposed to be their #2 star, he hasn't done anything worth talking about in AGES. Boring interviews, boring matches and boring feuds.

hes been boring for as long as i can remember. his "viper" gimmick is boring

[PilotMan]

The WWE has just released an official statement saying, "Chris Jericho has been suspended indefinitely due to an irresponsible act of denigrating the Brazilian flag at a WWE event in Sao Paulo on May 24. The WWE has apologized to the citizens and the government of Brazil for this incident."

The company shows its true colors by not even pretending to back up its employees. I think that the whole independent contractor/wrestler is a sham. It's just a front to keep from paying for a lot of stuff that they would normally have to pay employees. The company could have at least said that they were sorry, and that it wasn't intentional, and that Jericho did the right thing by apologizing. Instead they back away and leave him to twist in the wind, then suspend him to boot.

[molson]

Orton's a great talent, maybe the best all-around wrestler in the company (and the world). If he was wrestling in Japan or on the indys everyone would talk about how great he was. But we've seen him maybe 10 million times more than we ever saw, say, Bob Orton. Almost every week on national TV for almost 10 years, almost never in squash matches - Bob Orton would have had to be around for 100 years to get that much exposure the way they used to do things. Same with Cena. It's just too much. I think they should both be 2 of the top 3 or 4 guys, because they're so good, they just don't need to wrestle or even on be on TV every week. I think they have more than enough "stars". You don't need to push every 25 year-old guy with a pulse to the top right away. Everybody just needs to be on TV less often. Cena and Orton are just entering their wrestling primes now and we've already seen them do everything.

[molson]

Now take Dolph Ziggler and make him a main eventer. The roster has never been so thin, and he's ready. It's time.



He was going to take Jericho's place in the Orton feud. Nothing for him really to do now, they'll probably keep him in that tag team a little longer.

[RainMaker]

I would say that hurts, but they haven't used Orton much. And it seems like the suspension of Jericho was going to put him in a holding pattern again. Miz was supposed to replace Jericho in that feud and they've had Miz jobbing every week for months. If anything maybe the 2 months will allow them to come up with something fresh for Orton.

I think one of their problems with guys like Orton and Punk who played the antihero so well is that they turn them babyface once the crowd is on their side. They forget what made them such a hot commodity. The crowd was into them for the anti-establishment thing, they don't want to see them kissing babies and smiling incessantly.

Daniel Bryan seems like a guy they could really showcase more. The crowd is absolutely into him whether you make him a face or a heel. Every heel plays arrogant and it looks the same, but somehow he's able to make that arrogant heel thing look new. Just a subtle trolling with all his mannerisms. Loved his match with Sheamus a couple months ago and how he played it out.

They blew their chance with Ziggler. Miz is dead. Not sure who else they can elevate to main event status these days.

[RainMaker]

He was going to take Jericho's place in the Orton feud. Nothing for him really to do now, they'll probably keep him in that tag team a little longer.

I thought it was Miz who was going to replace him?

[molson]

I thought it was Miz who was going to replace him?

Miz is being written off to film the Marine 3. It's possible he was going to squashed by Orton first, but he's supposed to be gone any week now. I think it was Meltzer that reported that Ziggler was going to take Jericho's place (Ziggler/Swagger teased a breakup on Monday).

[molson]

Did anybody see thing post from an alleged former WWE creative team member that was floating around? I don't know if this link is the original source, but it has the whole thing. I'm not 100% sure it's legit, but it's very detailed and it's a fun read, the IWC seems to be going with it, and a couple of big names have vouched for it as being accurate. I think my favorite thing in it is the rejected storyline of Alex Riley faking cancer to get sympathy from the fans. I can totally see him doing that.

WWE Creative Team: An Insightful Look at the Creative Process Within WWE (http://www.wrestleenigma.com/wwe-creative-team-an-insightful-look-at-the-creative-process-within-wwe/)

and part 2:

http://www.rspwfaq.net/2012/05/behind-scenes-at-wwe-part-deux.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting read, thanks for the linkage Molson.

The bit in the first part about how often stuff is used that's a rib on someone rings pretty true to me. That was said frequently about some of the things the Abyss character does/did being elements taken from Chris Parks' personality and I know that it's not uncommon in the indies, so it seems like a wrestling thing rather than a WWE thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Guy takes a lot of heat (and there's probably more coming his way with the divorce stuff) but this is a lot of good he's done & that's worth a nod.

WWE's John Cena grants 300th Wish - Entertainment, Pop Culture, Style and Hot Trends - Trending Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/trending/post/_/id/3697/wwes-john-cena-grants-300th-wish)

[RainMaker]

Yeah, I don't think anyone denies he's a great guy. He also should be the face of the company. His character is just poorly written and he unfortunately has to take the blame for that.

For the crap WWE gets for their image and such, they do a lot of good that you don't see from other companies. The Make-a-Wish stuff has always been great and they are one of the only outfits that was actually making the trip overseas and into military zones to put on shows for the troops.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, I don't think anyone denies he's a great guy.

Other than perhaps his ex, Mickie James, Randy Orton and Ken Doane :D

[Mota]

Great interview with Matt Hardy on the Wrestling Observer yesterday. This guy finally seems to have identified that there's something wrong with him and has been trying to fix it. He said he's happy working a few times a week, letting his body recover, and not needing to go into that cycle of doom that he was in back in the WWE days. I haven't heard him this lucid in years. Good luck to Matt and I hope that he can keep on the right track.

[Mota]

Other than perhaps his ex, Mickie James, Randy Orton and Ken Doane :D

I wonder if that angle where he kissed Eve a few months ago is a reflection of reality? And then one of the wrestlers had to point out that he was married.

Looking back at all this chaos, seems weird that it was placed on there, probably when it was all coming down before we knew about it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Magazine - Wrestlemaniac - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/wrestlemaniac/9010/)

The story (and the result) of an interview with Abdullah the Butcher.

[RainMaker]

Disappointed that they are making the Raw MitB Cena, Show, Kane, and Jericho. None of them can really take advantage of the setup and give some big spots. MitB also seemed to be a great showcase for up and coming talent. And at worst a match with some big spots showing off the more athletic part of the roster.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Magazine - Wrestlemaniac - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/wrestlemaniac/9010/) The story (and the result) of an interview with Abdullah the Butcher.

Never a dull moment with Abby around I suspect.

Has he got Hep? Beats the hell outta me, I figure he's the only person who (maybe) knows for sure. But I hope he's clean, too important a showman for me not to wish that he's just a beautiful bit of kayfabe.

[RainMaker]

Never thought I'd say this, but TNA has been sort of good lately. Outside of the hilariously bad AJ-Dixie storyline of course. Roode has been a surprisingly great champion.

[Toddzilla]

Nice surprise seeing Kenny King last night - ROH wasn't happy about it, though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nice surprise seeing Kenny King last night - ROH wasn't happy about it, though.

No they weren't.

Then again, considering the circumstances (according to their version of the story at least) I can't say that I blame them much.

[Mota]

On that note, the 1000th episode of Raw is over. What were your thoughts?

[Matthean]

The AJ thing continues to make no sense.

[RainMaker]

Turned the wrong guy heel.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Turned the wrong guy heel.

Yeah, but I don't think it was scripted. I think they went with the tweets of who the fans wanted to fight the Rock. CM "won" that contest so he turned heel. It could have gone Cena or the Show......

[Mota]

The AJ thing continues to make no sense.

The final payoff of the CM Punk / Kane / Daniel Bryan story with AJ is that she becomes GM? To me that's the equivalent of "Hornswoggle was the Anonymous GM" in terms of payoff quality.

And if you were the chairman of a large corporation, wouldn't she be the last person on the entire roster that you would put in charge of a highly rated TV show?

[Mota]

Turned the wrong guy heel.

We're watching the wrong show if we're expecting John Cena to turn at this point.

But at least the hardcores had an alternative to cheer for in CM Punk. Who are they going to cheer for now? Or are they just going to continue cheering for Punk and make it hard on the WWE?

[RainMaker]

The final payoff of the CM Punk / Kane / Daniel Bryan story with AJ is that she becomes GM? To me that's the equivalent of "Hornswoggle was the Anonymous GM" in terms of payoff quality.


They haven't been able to produce a good payoff in some time. Punk/Nash/Laurinitis angle, Nexus, Lesnar/Cena, and so on. Do a decent job of getting people into angles, but then go down in flames.

I know they'll never turn Cena or tweak his character. Just saying if they are looking for a way to liven up the show now that it's going to be 3 hours, that would be the way to do it. Punk has swerved so many times that it doesn't really matter. He's like Jericho in that respect. I don't watch every week but do fast forward through the occasional Raw. No idea how they are going to make 3 hours interesting when they can't make 2.

I did like the show last night. Some good nostalgia. The AJ bit was dumb and the ending didn't make a lot of sense either. Thought the HHH/Lesnar storyline would be better if Lesnar was treated as a credible threat. Probably should have had him pummel HHH again and leave Stephanie crying and wondering what she had just done. I really don't have much interest in the angle though. Think they should be using Lesnar to push active talents (sort of like how they would use Foley in the past).

Speaking of Foley, he has definitely put on the pounds. Was good seeing Bradshaw and Simmons together and Slater really sold that clothesline.

[RainMaker]

I also think they'll cheer for Punk still. WWE does a decent job of ignoring the fan reactions and or lying about them. They were pumping in a ton of crowd noise for the taped Smackdowns to temper the cheers for Bryan awhile back.

[Matthean]

Undertaker was nice seeing return, but it felt like there wasn't anything there once he appeared. After he and Kane did their movies, you can tell they are literally just standing around waiting for something that never seems to happen.

[Toddzilla]

Yeah, but I don't think it was scripted. I think they went with the tweets of who the fans wanted to fight the Rock. CM "won" that contest so he turned heel. It could have gone Cena or the Show......This goes alongwith something McMahon said in and earlier interview or something where he said they wanted to use social media to help influence storylines. I guess that works in terms of giving people what they want but it really sucks in terms of givign awaywhat is about to happen. As soon as I saw Punk won the vote I knew Cena was going to lose.

However, they did a nice job with the turn - or should I say Punk made the most out of what they gave him.

[molson]

Ya, that was a really well crafted turn, and they planted the seeds the last few weeks, I'm sure next week he'll do his "I don't main event PPVs even though I'm the champion" speech.

And heel/face divide obviously isn't as rigid and important as it used to be, Rock/Punk will flow a little better with Punk playing a heel, but he'll be cheered plenty too and that's fine. Heels on TV are almost always faces with the internet fans anyway.

[Mota]

Speaking of Foley, he has definitely put on the pounds. Was good seeing Bradshaw and Simmons together and Slater really sold that clothesline.

I KNOW! Slater took that clothesline into a headstand or something like that. It was insane. Everybody nearly cracked up watching it.

[molson]

Wrestling is such a sleazy business. Two big examples of that going on in the last week or two.

Dawn Marie has this "charity" that she alleges supports older wrestlers with their medical bills, but it's been quite clear for years it's a total scam. They've run benefit shows for Steve Williams, Jerry Lynn, and some other guys who have never seen a penny. Instead, they'll find some sick kid in England or Germany who's a wrestling fan, and blow the whole budget on visiting them to "raise their spirits" (and get a free vacation). More recently, they and some New England indy promotion took some donations and ran some shows to support Kamala, who has lost both of his legs to diabetes. Kamala posted a youtube video saying he hasn't seen a cent. Dawn Marie's charity and the New England indy respond, insulting Kamala, blaming his lifestyle for his health problems, and claiming payments were sent via postal mail, through some intermediary, but the evidence they post of this seems suspect. Especially considering Dawn Marie's right-hand-lady just exudes total scam artist. She posts clearly photo-shopped photos of herself with celebrities and passes them as real on twitter. Rob Feinstein, of all people, comes forward with Kamala's legit email address so that people can donate directly to him - so at the end of the day, the voice of reason and sanity in all this is a guy who was caught by pervertedjustice.com trying to screw someone he thought was an underage boy.

And then there's Davey Richards, indy wrestler extrodinare and former ROH champion, who I don't really follow, but I guess he's some kind of big deal. He shows up with another wrestler for a show in Iowa. They're booked and advertised for singles matches, but they're tired, so they demand the promoter change everything and book an 8-man tag instead so they don't have to work as hard. The promoter refuses. There's some negotiation, and eventually Richards settles for a lesser payout for a regular tag team match. He takes the cash, and flees in his car, ripping off the promoter and the fans in attendance. Maybe this is normal low-level wrestling stuff, but I think this guy is supposed to be some kind of big deal. The IWC explodes, and the money eventually gets sent back to the promoter, but ROH de-books Richards and the other guy from upcoming shows.

So there's a lot of douchebags in in wrestling. That shouldn't come as a surprise, but it's still kind of startling to see it all play out. I think the WWE does a decent job in trying to weed out the real criminal element, but the big stars outside of the WWE are entirely willing to destroy their reputations for a quick $350. But still, I think there's a reason they bring in some guys and not others.

The good news - Adam Ryland has announced TEW '13 with a ton of new features. Looking forward to that. That guy is a machine.

[Toddzilla]

The good news - Adam Ryland has announced TEW '13 with a ton of new features. Looking forward to that. That guy is a machine.Will you be able to book some assclown taking the cash and no-showing an indie event?

[JonInMiddleGA]

They've run benefit shows for Steve Williams, Jerry Lynn, and some other guys who have never seen a penny.

Actually, Jerry Lynn has defended DM this week and thanked her for helping.

Jerry Lynn made the following statement regarding Dawn Marie and her Wrestler’s Rescue organization:

“Since a lot of the talk regarding Wrestler’s Rescue has centered around what was done to help me when I injured my back, I felt it necessary to speak out.

Did Wrestler’s Rescue raise any money for me directly? No. However, Dawn Marie put me in touch with Karl Lauer of the Cauliflower Alley Club, which did help me financially on several occasions during the period I was hurt and needed help.

I am deeply thankful to Dawn for making that connection for me and obviously, to the CAC as well as everyone else who supported me in any way during that time period. Thank you.”

[JonInMiddleGA]

And then there's Davey Richards, indy wrestler extrodinare and former ROH champion, who I don't really follow, but I guess he's some kind of big deal. He shows up with another wrestler for a show in Iowa.

Just for the indy grognards here at the FOFC, the main other wrestler in question was Tony Kozina (although Kyle O'Reilly and a 4th lesser known cohort were apparently involved as well). Kozina also shot on some teenage trainee earlier in the day as well, reportedly choking him out legit.

The story gets a little more bizarre with both Richards & Kozina (aka "Team Ambition") doing a fair bit of social media without really denying any of the basics of the story. Instead, Kozina has gone the route of "maybe we weren't completely ethical but we felt disrespected so we did what we did"

More on that stuff, plenty of quotes & other accounts from backstage here (http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/7/30/3204724/davey-richards-allegedly-takes-350-and-runs-before-planned-indy-match)

The disappearance of Richards from ROH however appears likely to be more connected to some recent shoot comments he made ripping Jim Cornette for being out of touch & basically over the hill. (He vanished from their shows before this weekend's stuff happened)

One other sidebar to the story that caught my eye though, after reading the additional versions of the tale. It sounds as though the $350 wasn't DR's pay, it was the pay for the entire group of four. That has nothing to do with whether what they did was really shitty, but I mention it just to highlight how unimaginably bad the finances are on the indy circuit these days. Kozina is a vet, Richards is a legit indy-level star (almost but not quite indy superstar), and they making maybe $100-$150 a show.

As for whether all of this is normal, certainly not the specifics (this is pretty extreme stuff, which is why it's making news), but I'd say the fact that there was a dispute over pay & some shenanigans (by either wrestler or promoter or both) is fairly common at this level. I've seen wrestlers & promoters have to be separated physically, I've seen legit fights out on at least two occasions over this kind of stuff, I've seen guys leave after an argument only to return at a future show looking for a legit fight. It's a very nasty business with a number of lowlifes on all sides, and the more transient the roster is the worse it is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Saw this bit floating around one of the millions (and millions) of online "news" sites

Todd Grisham and The Coach hosted ESPNEWS Sportscenter together for the first time together. They started the show off with Grisham saying "Welcome to Sportscenter alongside The Coach I'm....." Coach cut him off "Does it really matter who you are?" Their first story together was about WR Mike Wallace showing up to the Pittsburgh Steelers, They talked about his money showing up. Coach: "His millions.." Grisham: "And millions...." Coach: "And Millions." Later, they joked about who would read one story, then when they did a live cut in to tennis they sarcastically joked about how exciting it was. At the end of the show Coach told a story about two tennis players who are dating eating snow cones, Todd said "Interesting story." Coach: "Well, that's what I get paid for." Grisham posted a picture on Twitter of them together at the desk, noting it was their first time together on TV in five years.
Ex-WWE Writer Rips Stephanie, Gabriel & Kidds ... (http://network.yardbarker.com/author/article_external/11571937?widget=true)

[Grover]

Oh hey there, Ring of Honor wrestling.

[Mota]

You mean Ring of Honor still exists?

To be honest if I'm looking for the future of pro wrestling these days, it's Evolve / Dragon Gate USA. That roster is still full of guys that have a ton of charisma and can wrestle. In RoH, they got completely cherry picked and have little left. Their top guys have a big lack of charisma and I don't think their future stars have progressed the way the company would like.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You mean Ring of Honor still exists?

One of only three companies with a national TV deal. Of course, being owned by a TV station ownership group kinda helps with that.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone watch TNA? It's actually good lately.

[IlliniCub]

Netflix added a lot of classic ECW today, as well as a WWE compilation of falls count anywhere matches

[JonInMiddleGA]

Does anyone watch TNA? It's actually good lately.

Audience is essentially flat at hell, right around 1.5 million total viewers a week.

[Grover]

You mean Ring of Honor still exists?

To be honest if I'm looking for the future of pro wrestling these days, it's Evolve / Dragon Gate USA. That roster is still full of guys that have a ton of charisma and can wrestle. In RoH, they got completely cherry picked and have little left. Their top guys have a big lack of charisma and I don't think their future stars have progressed the way the company would like.

Stumbled upon it on the local CBS affiliate. It runs opposite SNL, apparently.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Stumbled upon it on the local CBS affiliate. It runs opposite SNL, apparently.

Lemme guess ... WGME in Portland?

(It's owned & operated by Sinclair)

[Maple Leafs]

Some sort of serious situation involving Jerry Lawler just happened on RAW. Apparently he collapsed at ringside.

Meltzer:

Something happened regarding Jerry Lawler during the Prime Time Players vs. Kane & Daniel Bryan match.

He had what was described as appearing like a seizure a few minutes ago. The medical team at this moment is at the announcers table. That's why the crowd was looking off to the announcers table and paying no attention to the match.

The report is people are running all over the place seemingly not knowing what to do during the commercial break.

We'll update this as we get more information.

First update: The crew is cleaning up the floor. He may have thrown up but that's not certain.

Lawler fell off his chair. They rushed seven or eight people there and lifted him up and took him backstage. Cole's face looked like he saw a ghost.

[RainMaker]

That's horrible. Hope he's alright.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not sounding good, reports (I'm not watching until just now) that Cole said Lawler was getting CPR backstage

[General Mike]

Not sounding good, reports (I'm not watching until just now) that Cole said Lawler was getting CPR backstage

Yeah he said it on Raw. Based on his tone I expect the worst.

[Maple Leafs]

Live reports from Raw (via Twitter, etc) sound very bad.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cole just updated on air/on camera that Lawler is at a local hospital, is rcvg oxygen but is breathing on his own. No further commentary on tonight's Raw, but they're hoping for an update before the show leaves the air.

[Ksyrup]

Saw this news on twitter so figured I'd try to catch something on the show. Honestly, that guy didn't sound like he could break character and my wife and I couldn't tell if it was part of the show or not. I assumed it wasn't, but couldn't tell it by the way the guy looked/sounded like he was acting. Strange.

[General Mike]

Saw this news on twitter so figured I'd try to catch something on the show. Honestly, that guy didn't sound like he could break character and my wife and I couldn't tell if it was part of the show or not. I assumed it wasn't, but couldn't tell it by the way the guy looked/sounded like he was acting. Strange.

Cole isn't a good enough actor to fake it.

[General Mike]

Bryan Alvarez ‏@bryanalvarez
People crying in the back, not knowing what to do, being herded around

[molson]

More from WO.com

"From backstage, nobody is paying attention to the show and most of the guys are in various groups praying. They don't know anything more than what is being said on TV.

Jerry Lawler was hooked up to oxygen when he was being taken out.

They just announced in the building that the Pat Patterson Appreciation Night segment was being postponed due to what happened."

[Matthean]

People crying in the back, not knowing what to do

Your job. He's already been taken care off the best that he can be. Finish the show and then go from there.