Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[molson]

Clean in the sense that Lawler didn't have any help. It was basically 2-on-1 against Lawler all match and it still required Cole's interference to keep him from winning. That's your WWE Champion.

Sheamus didn't have any help either.

Your point on Lawler is valid but if your'e not consistent, you just seem predisposed to hate everything.

[molson]

It's going to be Cena, Orton, or HHH. I'll bump this after one of them wins.

I would definitely take the field there.

I'm most worried up about HHH "returning" there and winning, and if they do that storyline again I agree that's incredibly lame. But I'd bet on history (those guys don't win every year as it is), and the WWE's current over-obsession with pushing new guys way early.

[RainMaker]

Who do you see in the field as headlining Wrestlemania? I just don't see it happening.

[RainMaker]

Sheamus didn't have any help either.

Your point on Lawler is valid but if your'e not consistent, you just seem predisposed to hate everything.
No, Sheamus' win is as clean as they'll allow against Cena/Orton. I thought they were going to book Sheamus as a legitimate guy after that. But they turned him into a chickenshit champ afterwards and still to this day.

[Atocep]

I'm a big fan of Sheamus and I'm disappointed in how they've booked him recently.

He has the potential to be hated/loved like Flair in his day but they've turned him into nothing more than a guy to get whichever face they're pushing over. He'll get his title runs and such because they have to let the heels win something, but watching John Morrison come out and beat the hell out of him in the ring while he was doing his King Sheamus bit sums up the way he'll always be used.

I also can't stand John Morrison. Or Edge. Which makes watching the shows damn near impossible for me right now.

[RainMaker]

I used to like Edge when he was a heel. He's just not a good babyface. Should either be a heel or an antihero face. Sort of like Orton.

[Maple Leafs]

The good news is this thread just set a record for most consecutive posts without news of somebody dying.

[TexasT]

I hate to jump in the middle of this, but what happened to HHH?

[Flasch186]

he died.

zing

[Mota]

Like I said, if you want to book your company around Miz, that's fine, but then you can't build your company also around your 5 other midcard favorites and the current established guys who are proven draws. And then if he's the center of your company - he's Cena and you'll be back here whining about him.

Think UFC. They don't use Brock Lesnar on every PPV and they're still successful. They've managed to build a large roster of talent that has many fighters who are able to sell PPV's. The WWE could do this as well but they choose not to.

In the WWE they have a guy like Evan Bourne who starts getting popular with the fans and instead of developing this and trying to turn him into a star, they feed him to their 400 lb monsters and job him out in 2 minutes and remind all the fans trying to get emotionally invested in his character that they're wasting their time.

Look at Kofi Kingston a year ago, he was starting to get really popular against Randy Orton, they let him talk and he was actually doing pretty good and then they made him disappear. Now in Smackdown they've turned him into a cartoon, does his stupid boom boom moves, wrestles the exact same match every time and doesn't say a word. And guess what, nobody pays to see him.

How about Nexus? They get a lot of airtime but are booked as complete jobbers, so that's how the crowd views them. The only one there that was getting a decent push is Wade Barrett but I'm not sure when we'll see him next, they're trying to unbury him from about 400 chairs that Cena dropped on him to let everybody on the planet know he's not on the same level as Cena.

It's about Cena and only Cena these days. That's why Smackdown house shows don't draw fans. Nobody cares about the wrestling since they have repeatedly told us that the wrestling portion of the show doesn't matter. And then they wonder why the PPV buyrates are dropping.

Who is the "next" guy to be a big star on the roster? Are they developing anybody? Their "next breakout stars" are exposed on NXT every week and treated as jokes. Then look at Jon Jones in the UFC. He's possibly a future star for them. 6-1 in the UFC in and he's been there for 2 years. He's slowly being moved up the card as he defeats guys, given harder challenges every time to try and turn him into a draw. Now people are starting to take the guy seriously and as a reason to purchase a PPV. He's not there yet but you can tell that they're positioning him to be a top contender soon. And the UFC is nurturing this. In the WWE they would have had Jones in a soda drinking competition, doing obstacle races, and then they'd feed him to the top contender immediately to show everybody that he's not ready for prime time and that you shouldn't cheer for him. That's what happened to Kaval, he won NXT season 2 and is already released.

[TexasT]

he died.

zing

Thanks. That was helpful.

[Mota]

I loved Nexus. Until they fucked it up at Summerslam.

I agree. They had the potential to be pretty good. There was Barrett who is potentially a big time player. Otunga as the schemer. Justin Gabriel as the high flyer. Skip Sheffield was the monster. If they developed each guy it could have been great. But they've pushed them as "Barrett and his cannon fodder". If it's not 5 on 1 they always lose.

I wish they had booked it more like Evolution where the bottom guys actually benefitted from being in the alliance instead of how it turned out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And guess what, nobody pays to see him.

Guess what, nobody was ever going to pay to see him anyway. He was an mildly amusing novelty but that's about it.

And as for Evan Bourne, are we really talking about the WWE making a headliner out of a guy who couldn't even make it to top guy status in ROH? Seriously? Even a guy who has IWC tendencies like me knows that isn't a exactly the best idea going.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Thanks. That was helpful.

If you were looking for a more serious answer, best I can tell he's worked one match back in October since suffering a torn bicep back at the beginning of 2010. He recently got an actual office at WWE HQ to go with his title as "Senior Advisor" to VKM. Basically he's still one of the key people to give Vince input on the wrestling end of the business but the move to give him an office & formal title has been viewed as one meant to make his backstage role more official. Whether it's permanent is still unclear.

[DeToxRox]

If you were looking for a more serious answer, best I can tell he's worked one match back in October since suffering a torn bicep back at the beginning of 2010. He recently got an actual office at WWE HQ to go with his title as "Senior Advisor" to VKM. Basically he's still one of the key people to give Vince input on the wrestling end of the business but the move to give him an office & formal title has been viewed as one meant to make his backstage role more official. Whether it's permanent is still unclear.

Basically JIMGA has it. He is about to embark on the Undertaker portion of his career where he will be active for different stretches of the year and then take a month or two if not more off. He'll be back at the RR and feud with Sheamus to set up a match at WM.

[RainMaker]

I agree. They had the potential to be pretty good. There was Barrett who is potentially a big time player. Otunga as the schemer. Justin Gabriel as the high flyer. Skip Sheffield was the monster. If they developed each guy it could have been great. But they've pushed them as "Barrett and his cannon fodder". If it's not 5 on 1 they always lose.

I wish they had booked it more like Evolution where the bottom guys actually benefitted from being in the alliance instead of how it turned out.
They should have done the CM Punk move back at SummerSlam (or someone like Punk). Basically having a WWE guy turn and join Nexus. It would have given them a legit name at the top of the stable and allowed the others to develop. Eventually leading to Wade and Punk struggling for control of the group. Instead they wasted 6 months of feuding with the top star and got nothing out of it. Barrett is a joke and the rest are a bunch of jobbers.

[RainMaker]

Guess what, nobody was ever going to pay to see him anyway. He was an mildly amusing novelty but that's about it.

And as for Evan Bourne, are we really talking about the WWE making a headliner out of a guy who couldn't even make it to top guy status in ROH? Seriously? Even a guy who has IWC tendencies like me knows that isn't a exactly the best idea going.
I think that's the thinking that has caused so much trouble for WWE. That one star has to sell all the tickets and be the draw. Why not have 5-10 solid guys on the roster that people sort of want to see?

Right now it's Cena or bust. They are a serious injury away to him from falling off a cliff. Even right now they have to focus everything on him to avoid having buyrates bottom out. Can you imagine the ratings and buyrates if he isn't in the main event? Who is going to pay to see Orton/Miz or Kane/Edge?

I still contend that the complete removal of the mid-carders from the show has hurt them. The IC/US and Tag Titles were great stepping stones for guys when they actually meant something. It worked for Hart, Rock, Michaels, Austin, HHH, etc. Now that you don't have lower tier belts anymore, you basically just get these pushes out of nowhere for guys like Morrison and Bourne that no one buys. If the IC belt had meant something, and Morrison had been given a nice 6-9 month run while engaging in some heated feuds, he'd have some credibility right now in the main event scene. WWE needs to get away from putting 95% of their energy on promoting who John Cena fights at a PPV and more on the entire card. I mean the last PPV had half its matches decided the week of. I think they even changed the WHC match 2 days before and didn't make much of a deal out of it.

[Mota]

And as for Evan Bourne, are we really talking about the WWE making a headliner out of a guy who couldn't even make it to top guy status in ROH? Seriously? Even a guy who has IWC tendencies like me knows that isn't a exactly the best idea going.

They don't have to make him a main eventer, just take an exciting wrestler and don't castrate him. Let him win about 50% of his matches and when he loses it's a close match. And just as importantly, let him win without it seeming to be a fluke. Give him moments where you'll care about him, because people wanted to care about him initially until they were taught by WWE not to.

That's what some of the talk about having a real mid-card on this thread is all about. If you make your talent come across as believable and not miles and miles away from the main eventers, you can cherry pick guys to come in and out of the main event and it seem legit instead of what you see now when the fans don't buy into it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think that's the thinking that has caused so much trouble for WWE. That one star has to sell all the tickets and be the draw. Why not have 5-10 solid guys on the roster that people sort of want to see?

Actually, I didn't say anywhere that you're wrong about that part. I was just addressing those two guys in particular

I still contend that the complete removal of the mid-carders from the show has hurt them. The IC/US and Tag Titles were great stepping stones for guys when they actually meant something.

Heck, I didn't entirely disagree with you there, although I think the reality of available time + the size of their roster + the number of names on said roster handcuffs them quite a bit.

[Flasch186]

i enjoy reading this thread more than watching any of the shows now...that says something.

[molson]

They don't have to make him a main eventer, just take an exciting wrestler and don't castrate him. Let him win about 50% of his matches

You're not going to be able to have 15 guys win half of their matches unless they only wrestle every few weeks and only wrestle jobbets

[molson]

I think that's the thinking that has caused so much trouble for WWE. That one star has to sell all the tickets and be the draw. Why not have 5-10 solid guys on the roster that people sort of want to see?

Right now it's Cena or bust. They are a serious injury away to him from falling off a cliff.

Cena has been injured in the past, and he's taken time off to do movies. Other guys have stepped up. Take a look at the list of prior champions and ppv main eventers. But while he's available, he's the top option. The most over guy. If you're not a fan, there's smackdown, and there's 80% of raw that involves other people.

Evan bourne is not the answer. If he could ever stay healthy doing the www schedule, he'd get more time.

[Comey]

Cena has been injured in the past, and he's taken time off to do movies. Other guys have stepped up. Take a look at the list of prior champions and ppv main eventers. But while he's available, he's the top option. The most over guy. If you're not a fan, there's smackdown, and there's 80% of raw that involves other people.

Evan bourne is not the answer. If he could ever stay healthy doing the www schedule, he'd get more time.

I don't recall the WWE offering refunds to anyone who didn't get to see Kane at a house show recently? Or Rey Mysterio? How about Jack Swagger or Randy Orton? How about Austin or Rock years ago?

They offered them anyone who got tickets to see Cena and didn't because of his injury. That says an awful lot to me.

[molson]

I don't recall the WWE offering refunds to anyone who didn't get to see Kane at a house show recently? Or Rey Mysterio? How about Jack Swagger or Randy Orton? How about Austin or Rock years ago?

They offered them anyone who got tickets to see Cena and didn't because of his injury. That says an awful lot to me.

He's a huge star (bigger than evan bourne even.) That's a good thing, not a liability.

[TexasT]

If you were looking for a more serious answer, best I can tell he's worked one match back in October since suffering a torn bicep back at the beginning of 2010. He recently got an actual office at WWE HQ to go with his title as "Senior Advisor" to VKM. Basically he's still one of the key people to give Vince input on the wrestling end of the business but the move to give him an office & formal title has been viewed as one meant to make his backstage role more official. Whether it's permanent is still unclear.

Yes, I was. Thanks for the info. He 's one of my favorites.

[Comey]

He's a huge star (bigger than evan bourne even.) That's a good thing, not a liability.

That's not the point (I don't watch anymore, haven't seen Bourne in action). The point is that it's Cena, and then everyone else. I would consider myself a fan of Cena, as I liked him when I watched. But if it's at the point where they have to offer refunds because he's not available, something I really don't recall happening before...that, to me, is an issue of not having enough stars at the top.

[Mota]

Ideally you'll see a constant stream of wrestlers being built up, to replace the wrestlers who are on their way down or leaving. For years this didn't happen. They have a youth movement now, not by choice. The issue is that these young guys did not have the chance to be put over and made into stars before the big names left so now you have the perception that it's John Cena and a bunch of jobbers, and the WWE isn't trying very hard to dispute this.

And Molson, I know you're picking on Evan Bourne here saying he's not the solution and I agree with you. Didn't want him to be used as the savior of the company. He's an exciting wrestler that the fans are into, and he could be used way better than he currently is. I think he could easily be an upper midcarder though and have a decent US title run or Intercontinental.

I wish the WWE listened to the fans more instead of trying to dictate who we should like and shouldn't like. Look at Drew McIntyre, they pushed him down our throats for a whole year and the fans never gave a crap. Finally they gave up on him.

There is a possibility though these days, Daniel Bryan is a guy that they did NOT want to push and because of fan reactions they have been pushing him recently. Let's see how that turns out.

[molson]

Ideally you'll see a constant stream of wrestlers being built up, to replace the wrestlers who are on their way down or leaving. For years this didn't happen. They have a youth movement now, not by choice.

Agreed, they did run into that a few years ago, and their main response was the brand split. Give twice as many guys the chance to be in main angles, twice as many guys a chance to contend for and hold world titles. It's watered down the product (I can't believe they've had 2 world champions for so long), but it's definitely served it's purpose to build new stars over the last 7-8 years or however long its been now. Orton and Cena are still a part of that youth movement, they're not the guys "on their way down and leaving". They got on top years before they otherwise would have, because of the brand split. 7-8 years ago there was a big main event problem - there was only 2-3 guys that could contend for the world title. Today, there's about a dozen, maybe more. (between the two titles) I still think that's too many.

That's that hard part, I think, knowing when to pull the main even trigger on a guy, because people seem have a very short shelf life on top these days. People want to pull that trigger on everyone on the undercard that has a pulse and that's just not smart long-term booking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

USA Network Orders “WWE Tough Enough� For Monday, 8pm Slot (http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/01/03/usa-network-orders-%E2%80%9Cwwe-tough-enough%E2%80%9D-for-monday-8pm-slot/77019)

[Suicane75]

If I could do a pushup i'd so enter.

[Terps]

This version of Tough Enough is going to be nothing more than another NXT. I heard they're using guys from FCW as the 'contestants', instead of people who have no experience.

[Suicane75]

That might make for a much better show than the original Tough Enough or NXT.

[Terps]

Well, most of the NXT guys were from FCW too I think.

[RainMaker]

This opening match between Miz and Morrison was stellar. Wish they'd drop Cole though, he ruins these things.

[molson]

I know not a lot of people watch Smackdown, but (airing tonight), yet another new guy has risen to the status of #1 Contender for the world title. That doesn't guarantee a lifelong career of PPV main events or anything, but it's yet another new guy who will at least get his first exposure in an top-level angle/storyline/match (and from what I've read, it's a pretty good show tonight all-around).

[Mota]

Man, that Smackdown brand has fallen this past year though. Not too long ago it was "the place" if you wanted to watch wrestling. But wow, how many combinations of MVP / Jack Swagger / Kofi Kingston have we seen these past few months? The roster seems tiny, it's the same matchups week after week after week.

I really think they'd be better off cutting the number of matches in half on each show and promoting each one more, giving them more time. That way when there are matches they'll seem fresher, and also more important since you're not doing 1 minute matches anymore so both wrestlers will have a chance to showcase what they're all about. With a one minute match the loser always seems like they're being squashed, or that they must have 0 stamina if they get pinned after 3 moves.

[SirFozzie]

I'll say this... If they give us Alberto Del Rio - Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania, (and guarantee it a decent amount of time).. I will buy it right now. Right. Damn. Now.

[Neon_Chaos]

Guess who finally shows up in the WWE again...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MtzJpS7BgY4" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

Hell has frozen over... again?

[Comey]

I was actually interested in this game until I saw the ridiculousness of the moves...nevermind now.

[molson]

I can kill a lot of time watching random wrestling videos on youtube. This one though, I had to share. Lanny Poffo. In Memphis.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tCplnH9sgyo" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

[saldana]

I was actually interested in this game until I saw the ridiculousness of the moves...nevermind now.

seriously...wtf is with the comic book physics...why the hell wouldnt they use the same game engine that Smackdown vs. Raw uses instead of the reject from the Matrix

[Atocep]

seriously...wtf is with the comic book physics...why the hell wouldnt they use the same game engine that Smackdown vs. Raw uses instead of the reject from the Matrix


It's meant to be a street fighter-like game in the WWE universe. The target audience really isn't going to be people on this board. More for kids like my son.

[dubb93]

It's meant to be a street fighter-like game in the WWE universe. The target audience really isn't going to be people on this board. More for kids like my son.

Then why waste the money and go after the old timers that young kids may not recognize? Doesn't make sense to me.

[molson]

Miz retains, and Alberto Del Rio wins the Rumble.

Edit: Though they may have missed a chance to do the true underdog-winner Rumble angle that's never been done - Santino was the runner-up after doing the hide-under-the-ring spot, and the crowd popped for it.

And Kevin Nash and Booker T appear, but I figure both were one-shot deals since neither accomplished much (though Nash was hugely over)

[RainMaker]

Usually not a good sign when the biggest pops of the night are for a 51 and 45 year old guy who haven't wrestled for your organization in years.

[Toddzilla]

Other than the opener, what a snoozefest.

Also, Booker T and Nash have signed deals longer than just one night - Booker may have hooked up for a year or so.

This really dumps TNA's plans for a Main Event Mafia reunion tonight right in the shitter, don't it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

This really dumps TNA's plans for a Main Event Mafia reunion tonight right in the shitter, don't it?

Which seems likely to have been as much the point as anything (although Nash into the HoF might also be a factor).

That said, Vince may have done TNA a favor, it's not as though the ratings were noticeably better for the older guys & the money & airtime is probably better spent elsewhere. Plus, Booker in particular was reportedly someone the TNA locker room got pretty tired of because of his attitude.

[Neon_Chaos]

The best thing about the entire PPV was CM Punk.

I wish they had stuck him in the final four, instead of having John Cena go apeshit on the entire Nexus.

[molson]

Usually not a good sign when the biggest pops of the night are for a 51 and 45 year old guy who haven't wrestled for your organization in years.

They got the predictable surprise/nostalgia pops (not unlike what Roddy Piper always gets), but Cena was the most over.

[RainMaker]

Of course Cena is over, he's pretty much the only main eventer on the roster other than Orton.

[molson]

Of course Cena is over, he's pretty much the only main eventer on the roster other than Orton.

You're still on this?

You don't watch the shows. And you whiffed on your Royal Rumble guaranteed winner.

Maybe the issue is in the definition of "main eventer." I watch the shows, I see at least a dozen guys who are credible world title holders/ppv main eventers (and there's at least a dozen guys who have actually done both in the last year or two - some caught on, some didn't, but almost everyone with a pulse gets a chance.)

Cena's the top guy, I think Miz has surpassed Orton at the moment for #2, and Miz/Cena appears to the be Mania main event. (I'm sure by this time next year people will be whining in this thread about Miz.)

Can you point to a year/promotion that had what you feel is "appropriate number of main eventers"? No time in WWE history is remotely close to the current one in terms of number of main eventers/mingling amongst the card. The NWO WCW years had a lot of credible main eventers running around, but only Goldberg was a "new star", everyone else was just a high-priced import. ECW shuffled the main event some, but that was really caused by people jumping ship.

Edit: You had a problem with Nash/Booker T getting the biggest pops (when you thought that's what happened), but then when you heard Cena actually got the biggest reaction - you had a problem with that too. So who should be getting the big pops if not the biggest star and/or the former main evetners making a surprise return? Trent Barretta?

[RainMaker]

Miz isn't a main eventer. You aren't buying a PPV to see him. He's a great performer and I think has the potential to be a main eventer if booked right, but sorry, he's losing matches to Jerry Lawler. No one is taking him serious and you aren't selling PPVs with a guy like that in the main event. Just because you throw someone in the main event and/or put a title on them doesn't make them a main eventer.

As to pointing to a time when you had an appropriate number of main eventers, you can probably say a couple years ago. You had Cena, Orton, HBK, HHH, Jericho, Undertaker, and Edge. Over half those guys are gone now and they haven't replaced them with anyone.

Everyone saw this coming as their stars were aging and they refused to build up anyone new. Now they are stuck with Del Rio and Miz in their two main event matches at Wrestlemania. It's safe to say this will have a historically low buyrate.

[RainMaker]

As for last night's PPV, I liked both title matches. I thought Edge/Ziggler was exceptional and the crowd seemed to really be into it. Vicky is such a good heel manager.

Didn't really like the addition of 10 people to the Rumble though. It shortened the number of near-eliminations and didn't allow for enough big spots. It felt kind of rushed, especially near the end. They should either go back to 30 or extend the 40-man Rumble by a half hour to get everything good into it.

[molson]

So if not Miz and Del Rio, who should be pushed now as main eventers? And "a couple of years ago" (I don't remember 2008 being a spectacular year for the WWE, but I'll just go with this), which undercard guys on the roster should have been pushed more to deal with the eventual departure of HBK and the Undertaker? And which of those "big 7" that you mentioned should have been fired/de-pushed to build up those newer guys?

[RainMaker]

There isn't anyone to replace Miz and Del Rio. That's the problem. There are no legitimate heels out there right now, especially on the main event side.

As for guys who should have been pushed.

Wade Barrett - The Nexus-Cena feud was a perfect opportunity to put him over on a main eventer and thrust him into the top of the company as one of their biggest heels. It was also an opportunity to build some strong mid-carders from the group. They did neither. They had Barrett lose just about every match he was in and turned the rest of the group into jobbers.

Sheamus - They booked him strong at first and then buried him. They should have put him over on HHH at Wrestlemania last year.

Miz - I'm fine with him being the chickenshit heel of the group, but don't job him out to Jerry Lawler.

John Morrison - They sort of never get him into a good feud. He would have been perfect to fill that HBK role of putting on that 20 minute match at every PPV that blew people away. The Rumble would have been a perfect opportunity to have him feud with Miz and put on a great match. He wouldn't need to win, but it would have given him credibility. But God forbid a PPV title match not involve Cena or Orton.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As for last night's PPV, I liked both title matches. I thought Edge/Ziggler was exceptional and the crowd seemed to really be into it. Vicky is such a good heel manager.

Interesting, as that differs from pretty much everything I read last night, summed up by one recap that mentioned how it had to be worrisome that the most over person involved in the match was a middle-aged woman who doesn't wrestle.

Not saying you're wrong, just noting how the recaps don't always match personal impressions.

[Maple Leafs]

Ordered the Rumble with friends, making it my first WWE PPV in years. A few random observations about the actual rumble:

- The spot with Morrison was unbelievable. I was putting one of the kids to bed and heard the room explode. When I got downstairs everyone was insisting that I rewind and rewatch it. Not sure how this guy isn't more over.

- Was shocked at the complete lack of reaction to the pair of Cena/Orton teases. Talk about a disconnect with your audience -- it's like they were expecting a Hogan/Warrior moment, and they got crickets.

- What was the deal with Riley getting eliminated. Seemed like a lot of confusion... was he supposed to be stay in and they had to improv the interference spot later on?

- The Punk/Nexus stuff was fun and probably the only way to make the first half watchable. Why go to 40 guys? Who convinced them that adding 10 jobbers to the match would sell better?

- I thought the tease with Santino at the end was brilliant, and it actually had me believing they were going to give him the win -- right up until they had Cole start yelling like it was already over, which is always a giveaway that it's not. Easily my biggest wrestling pet peeve. Do they really think that having the announcer yell "We have a new champion" like an idiot will make anyone think it's going to happen?

[RainMaker]

The Cena/Orton teases were funny. It only works if these guys haven't feuded for the past 5 years.

I think Riley's elimination was a botch. It happened in the background and it looked like he slipped off the apron. Cena sort of looked at him confused when it happened. The announcers also didn't realize that he was out until like 5 minutes later when they started asking where he was and then went silent.

That brings up another minor pet peeve with announcers. I understand the Cole heel role and like it, but he's overdoing it. To the point that it overshadows the match. They barely mentioned Nash being eliminated because they were talking about other stuff. And it soured an otherwise great WWE Championship match. JR was perfect and knew when to be quiet and when to talk. Cole sort of just overdoes his act too much, he needs to tone it down.

[jbergey22]

- I thought the tease with Santino at the end was brilliant, and it actually had me believing they were going to give him the win -- right up until they had Cole start yelling like it was already over, which is always a giveaway that it's not. Easily my biggest wrestling pet peeve. Do they really think that having the announcer yell "We have a new champion" like an idiot will make anyone think it's going to happen?

This bothers me as well. Vince McMahon was horrible with this as well. When they oversell something they must realize that people figure out what the result will be.

[rjolley]

Hated that ending.

And can we get a heel turn from Cena?

[SirFozzie]

For someone who is accused of holding down others, Cena made others look like a billion bucks in that rumble match.

[Comey]

People on another board are praising the ending.

I, having only read the matches, can see a Cena heel turn coming at EC. It would be an amazing time to do it...but I think it may be just wishful thinking than anything else (I actually like Cena quite a bit, but I don't watch wrestling because I have no cable and forget about justin.tv, and I do think he's done what he can as a face right now).

[RainMaker]

They aren't turning Cena heel. The company is desperately short of faces and they won't push a mid-carder.

Although I do think he needs a change of character and would have loved to have seen him turn heel during the Nexus feud.

[rjolley]

The Nexus feud would've been a great time to do it.

[Atocep]

What the hell is up with the Jerry Lawler push?

[molson]

What the hell is up with the Jerry Lawler push?

It would have been a fun angle 15 years ago. "Old veteran lucking into one last run". It seems a little late and out of left field with Lawler in his 60s though.

I guess it's something different though. And they avoid burning out another real challenger/matchup for Miz before Mania.

In addition to building new stars (which as I've said, I think the WWE has been doing pretty well), I'd like to see them use more one-off challengers for the titles to keep potential matchups as fresh as possible. It's always been against the WWE's philosophy to do one-shot deals or short-term contracts, but I think it would help a lot to bring in Booker T, Sting, indy sensation of the moment, etc. to do short programs with the World Title holders. Otherwise, a guy like Miz will burn out all of his available matchups within a year or two (especially at the rate people in this thread want new guys constantly elevated up to that level). You end up with a glut of guys that you've cycled through, and some will inevitable get overshadowed in the numbers game. But by then, you've already blown your load with them and it's no longer "special" for them to be challenging at the top level (Sheamus, Swagger)

[Atocep]

It would have been a fun angle 15 years ago. "Old veteran lucking into one last run". It seems a little late and out of left field with Lawler in his 60s though.

I guess it's something different though. And they avoid burning out another real challenger/matchup for Miz before Mania.

In addition to building new stars (which as I've said, I think the WWE has been doing pretty well), I'd like to see them use more one-off challengers for the titles to keep potential matchups as fresh as possible. It's always been against the WWE's philosophy to do one-shot deals or short-term contracts, but I think it would help a lot to bring in Booker T, Sting, indy sensation of the moment, etc. to do short programs with the World Title holders. Otherwise, a guy like Miz will burn out all of his available matchups within a year or two (especially at the rate people in this thread want new guys constantly elevated up to that level).

I agree. I'm just having a hard time buying Jerry Lawler in the role he's being portrayed after listening to him call matches for so long.

[Mota]

So if not Miz and Del Rio, who should be pushed now as main eventers? And "a couple of years ago" (I don't remember 2008 being a spectacular year for the WWE, but I'll just go with this), which undercard guys on the roster should have been pushed more to deal with the eventual departure of HBK and the Undertaker? And which of those "big 7" that you mentioned should have been fired/de-pushed to build up those newer guys?

Do you really need to depush someone to make someone else look credible though? It's just a matter of pushing the idea that there's 9-10 guys that could be in the main event at any given time, and another 10 guys that could easily fill in occasionally on a lower PPV. I think the way they push certain wrestlers as idiots (like Daniel Bryan or Jack Swagger and the eagle) is a conscious choice to put a huge separation between the midcard and the main events.

If the management doesn't take a wrestler seriously and insists on pushing this down our throats constantly, they shouldn't put them on TV at all.

[RainMaker]

I read that this is the first Raw PPV Championship match to not feature Orton, Cena, or HHH in like 4 years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do you really need to depush someone to make someone else look credible though?

I'd say pretty much so, or at least "depushed" is how it's going to be perceived by the IWC. I mean, somebody has to lose & at some point they're going to lose more than one in a row. That's a form of depushing.

"To be the man ..." applies here I think, and if you're one of those guys at the top rung, losing a couple of high profile matches to someone who isn't basically turns him into that guy while you're diminished. There are a few people who reach a point where they aren't damaged by loses (HBK can lose more than most ppl IMO, so could Taker, just for a couple of examples).

[molson]

Do you really need to depush someone to make someone else look credible though? It's just a matter of pushing the idea that there's 9-10 guys that could be in the main event at any given time, and another 10 guys that could easily fill in occasionally on a lower PPV. I think the way they push certain wrestlers as idiots (like Daniel Bryan or Jack Swagger and the eagle) is a conscious choice to put a huge separation between the midcard and the main events.

If the management doesn't take a wrestler seriously and insists on pushing this down our throats constantly, they shouldn't put them on TV at all.

Yes, you do need to depush someone to push others. You can try to mitigate the damage and keep the lower guys more credible, absolutely, but by definition, the more guys you try to push at the same time, the more watered down all those pushes are going to be, and the less credible all those main eventers are going to be. It's a zero sum game.

Take Sheamus, dominant run, leading to a WWE championship in his first year in the company. Either he stays a dominant long term champion (which means he, and not Miz, or any other new guy) is the #1 heel on the brand. Or, he loses. In which case people complain that he's "buried" (And during that burial period, they tried to keep him strong by, for example - destroying Daniel Bryan in about 5 seconds - which of course caused the internet to go apeshit), and also winning the King of The Ring tournament. I know people would like it if he killed Cena, HHH, and Orton clean, but then what? Now you're back to having 1 dominant star.

The more guys you try to push, the more guys are going to have to lose matches and look bad on occasion. The only way to have 10 guys on a 2 hours show all be dominant is to keep them away from each other, and bring back the 1980s Saturday morning style jobber matches. (I don't think it's a terrible idea to bring those back to some degree). They're kind of doing a version of that by pushing Lawler short-term.

There are people who hate when Cena/Orton have ANY success, and there's just no pleasing those people, because Cena/Orton aren't going to become full-time jobbers (nor should they). These guys are assets to the company and they're in the prime of the careers. And unlike every other main event WWE/WWF face in history - they don't truly dominate the main event angles. They don't even appear on half of the WWE's programing (Smackdown). They both dabble in the midcard to elevate guys. This isn't 2002 where HHH starts every show with a 30 minute promo and then wrestles in a 30 minute main event, on both RAW and Smackdown, every week. (I would have loved for even one other guy, ala Orton, to help balance out HHH - it was just HHH then. Now we have HHH/Cena/Orton, and a bunch of young guys who were pushed very suddenly that get the better of them on occasion, spend plenty of time in the main event storylines and that's only 1/2 of WWE's programming).

The Lawler push would have been better 15 years ago, but it wouldn't have happened 15 years ago. Do you think there's any way in hell Austin, Hart, HBK, or the Undertaker would agree to work an angle like that? Austin was only allowed to interact with 1 or 2 other main eventers. Cena has random feuds with Miz last year when he was nothing, teams with R-Truth for no particular reason, works entire summer-long angles with a bunch of rookies. This is all new ground.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cena has random feuds with Miz last year when he was nothing, teams with R-Truth for no particular reason, works entire summer-long angles with a bunch of rookies. This is all new ground.

And manages to do it without getting arrested, without any scuttlebutt about how badly he treats guys backstage (or puppies, underage girls, or grandmothers), without any negative p.r., without damaging his pop nor his merchandise sales.

Tell me again why there's something wrong with building a business around him?

[molson]

And manages to do it without getting arrested, without any scuttlebutt about how badly he treats guys backstage (or puppies, underage girls, or grandmothers), without any negative p.r., without damaging his pop nor his merchandise sales.

Tell me again why there's something wrong with building a business around him?

I think the general reaction to that is, "nothing wrong with building the company around him, he just needs to lose cleanly to Sheamus and Miz, and not main event PPVs as much." (i.e., push him like they're pushing R-Truth now, I guess, which I believe would count as a major de-push.)

But ya, you can't under-estimate having a solid, stable guy in that spot too. I think that's going into Miz's push as well.

[SirFozzie]

if you're going to push Cena and R-Truth the same, you're nuts.

[Flasch186]

someone let me know when I should come back and watch and what exactly... :)

[Terps]

So the videos for 2/21/11 that aired last night, any guesses?

It's got to be Sting, or the return of the Undertaker.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So Booker T is the newest member of the Smackdown announce team, replacing Matt Striker.

I thought Striker was generally considered to be doing a good job & was fairly popular in his commentator role?

edit to add: Oh, and here's Jim Ross' blog take on the Sting situation FWIW
Sting To WWE: "Amazing that some fans actually swear that there is going to be an Undertaker vs. Sting match this year at Wrestlemania 27 in Atlanta. I would be shocked if that occurred but at the same time everyone has the right to fantasize about dream matches that they personally want to see. I still say that there would likely be a large part of the WWE TV audience that only watches WWE that would have to become familiar with the Stinger's body of work. Not that it couldn't be done, it could, but that matter would have to be addressed."

"Cutting to the chase, I don't see Sting in WWE any time soon and especially not in the ring vs. the Undertaker in the Georgia Dome. I do think that Sting would be well served to explore potential marketing opportunities with WWE especially considering that all his 'greatest hits' which were in WCW are now owned by WWE."

[molson]

I don't think Sting's coming to the WWE, but I do enjoy the fake PPV promo posters people come up with.

http://i51.tinypic.com/9766mw.jpg

[Maple Leafs]

I look forward to the WWE's completely horrible ripoff of this moment...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DU4TDGlbTz8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, that was definitely worth the time it took to watch. While that apparently happened in CZW, I'm not sure the gimmick could have come from anywhere except Chikara, regular home of the Osirian Portal (aka the hypno dudes in the bit).

[Terps]

I don't think Sting's coming to the WWE, but I do enjoy the fake PPV promo posters people come up with.

http://i51.tinypic.com/9766mw.jpg

Yeah, I watched it again, it's for the Undertaker. Which is lame.

[RainMaker]

edit to add: Oh, and here's Jim Ross' blog take on the Sting situation FWIW
Sting To WWE: "Amazing that some fans actually swear that there is going to be an Undertaker vs. Sting match this year at Wrestlemania 27 in Atlanta. I would be shocked if that occurred but at the same time everyone has the right to fantasize about dream matches that they personally want to see. I still say that there would likely be a large part of the WWE TV audience that only watches WWE that would have to become familiar with the Stinger's body of work. Not that it couldn't be done, it could, but that matter would have to be addressed."

"Cutting to the chase, I don't see Sting in WWE any time soon and especially not in the ring vs. the Undertaker in the Georgia Dome. I do think that Sting would be well served to explore potential marketing opportunities with WWE especially considering that all his 'greatest hits' which were in WCW are now owned by WWE."
I wouldn't be surprised if that's just JR helping out WWE and throwing people for a swerve. I can't imagine that video is for the Undertaker and Vince does need something big for WM. And I don't know why Sting in the WWE for even just one night would be such a big stretch.

If it's for the Undertaker, that's pretty pathetic.

[Maple Leafs]

HOW ARE WE NOT HYPNOTIZED?

[CU Tiger]

That was great...all except for "superman"

[PilotMan]

This fits in perfectly here.

The 9 Most Unintentionally Depressing Pro Wrestling Gimmicks


hxxp://www.cracked.com/article_18918_the-9-most-unintentionally-depressing-pro-wrestling-gimmicks.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

snip from the IWC

TNA president Dixie Carter has teased that there could be a TNA Hall of Fame coming down the line

Giggle. Snort.

Somebody please put us out of this pathetic jock-sniffing bitch's misery.

[BYU 14]

snip from the IWC



Giggle. Snort.

Somebody please put us out of this pathetic jock-sniffing bitch's misery.


TNA really blew a great opportunity with all their young talent and the addition of guys like Hardy and Van Dam......I still wish she would have brought Heyman in, no matter the cost and stayed the hell out of the way.

[DeToxRox]

Pretty excited as Jericho's new book just came in the mail. I pre-ordered it a while ago, not sure why I got it already when I thought it came out in like two weeks, but regardless I cannot wait to read it.

[DeToxRox]

Rock on Raw and he is fucking bringing it.

[miami_fan]

That was the best 10 mins I have seen in pro wrestling in years.

[Comey]

I watched most of tonight, knowing he was coming. And I still marked hard. Such a great time. It also showed how great the Michael Cole character has become; I thought Cole stole a great moment when the email alert went off, and the TV cut to him laughing so smugly. That made me laugh a lot, too. It was the perfect reaction.

[Neon_Chaos]

The Rock is the fucking man. I marked out as well. :D

Edit:

The build up before he came out was ridiculously intense, and the pop was something I hadn't heard in a long time. :)

[Mota]

It's crazy that the people that get the most heat don't even wrestle. The Rock, Vicky Guerrero, Michael Cole, etc.

I guess it's a product of having John Cena on TV every single week and at every PPV so it's not a big deal to see him. Back in the day it was a treat to see Hulk Hogan, they held him back enough that it was a big deal every time he was on.

[jbergey22]

It's crazy that the people that get the most heat don't even wrestle. The Rock, Vicky Guerrero, Michael Cole, etc.

I guess it's a product of having John Cena on TV every single week and at every PPV so it's not a big deal to see him. Back in the day it was a treat to see Hulk Hogan, they held him back enough that it was a big deal every time he was on.

This is a good point. I think its part of the reason the Undertaker always seems interesting. He takes half the year off and it seems and even when hes going full time hes not hogging the show. I am a Cena fan but his matches just arent very interesting to me as hes faced all of his top competition(other than Undertaker) so many times.

I remember Wrestlemania 3 so clearly because most of them 12 matches had storylines going that were months old and the matches despite being very short were all very interesting and hard to predict who would win. As it is now you can basically predict 80 percent of the winners in any given PPV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That was the best 10 mins I have seen in pro wrestling in years.

Unless I'm missing a clip somewhere, there was about 6 mins of promo + 6 mins of crowd noise.

Can't find any video on wwe.com but it's split into parts on YouTube this morning, so the first 4 1/2 mins or so is the announcement & the walk down to the ring. The clip I found restarts with Rock telling Cole to sit down, etc, goes through the Cena bit, then walks back up the ramp for another nearly 2 mins.

Was that everything, or am I missing a segment? (No, I'm not ripping on you, I'm legit wondering if I saw it all).

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm with the Eric Gargiulo commentary (http://network.yardbarker.com/wwe/article_external/the_rock_is_the_wrestlemania_27_guest_host/4163255), My guess here is that they will pull something similar to Steve Austin and Mike Tyson where they teased a confrontation but Rock and Cena wind up working together in the finish at WrestleMania.

If that does turn out to be the route, I have to question where the long term gain is. Cena needs help to dispense with Punk? Certainly downgrades Cena but I'm not at all sure it elevates Punk.

At the moment at least, this seems like a bit of desperation to get WM buys. But it was good TV, a solid promo, for now it's all good I reckon.

[Toddzilla]

The Rock overrrun was well over 15 minutes, as my DVR missed the end of the show and I tape 15 minutes after the hour

[wade moore]

Wish I had known about this.

I haven't watched wrestling in years, but The Rock back would pull me back in.

If anyone finds good video online, let me know.

[Neuqua]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8-vf8w7pc

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8-vf8w7pc

Thanks, there was indeed a missing segment (or 2 or 3 or 4) from what I found earlier this morning.

edit to add: The thing that jumped out at me was the change in his catchphrase, he's now the most electrifying man in entertainment rather than sportsentertainment. I wonder how hard it is to break that habit?

[PackerFanatic]

Wish I had known about this.

I haven't watched wrestling in years, but The Rock back would pull me back in.

If anyone finds good video online, let me know.

Agreed - I found the video on WWE.com and it was pretty awesome.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wish I had known about this.

I haven't watched wrestling in years, but The Rock back would pull me back in.

If anyone finds good video online, let me know.

Ditto.

Thanks for the link Neuqua.

[molson]

I got a little nervous there for a second when they just showed those "mystery woman's feet" leaving the limo, but everything worked out.

I'm hopeful too that Rock will do something more interesting than a Tyson/other celebrity-esque "help the good guy beat the bad guy" bit. I think that's way beneath Rock. Seeing him run down Cena was promising (and it was fun to see the crowd spontaneously bust into a "Cena sucks" chant. The WWE has never shied away from utilizing that negative heat Cena can generate (like during that awesome RVD feud.)

Rock can make make the fans turn on anyone, and if they're already over as a heel, ala Michael Cole, the result is just tremendous TV. Cole might be my favorite WWE charater at the moment. The stuff with the Miz, the huge heel heat he gets just for saying "May I have your attention please", and "And I Quote" is just great stuff.

I loved how the first couple of "ass" comments were bleeped out, but then it seemed like the censors just gave up by the end (maybe because it was after 11.)

I was also looking around at that crowd, how young it was - I wonder how many people in the audience even remember Rock being an active wrestler. I'm sure they call got sucked in by the energy/hype and could gather that it was a huge deal.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wonder how many people in the audience even remember Rock being an active wrestler.

That thought crossed my mind also. But absence can make legends grow too. The interesting thing to me is that it's non-wrestling fans who've talked this up on my Facebook today, nary a peep from the wrestling fans. To those nons (100% female btw) he's a charismatic sex symbol so if he's on TV then it's all good with them.

[RainMaker]

I would hope they don't just use Rock in a generic put Cena over type bit at WM. Not too confident in WWE creative though. I would think this would be a great chance to turn Cena heel (or at least alter his character).

And The Rock is amazing on the mic. Seriously, I can't think of anyone who even comes close to him.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Watched the video today. I haven't watched in years, but that 23 minutes from last night's show was FANTASTIC. Takes me back to when I was a fan. The Rock is an unbelievable entertainer. I'd pay for Wrestlemania just to see the Rock again.

[Mota]

I was also looking around at that crowd, how young it was - I wonder how many people in the audience even remember Rock being an active wrestler. I'm sure they call got sucked in by the energy/hype and could gather that it was a huge deal.

My son just turned 7 and he knows all about The Rock. He has his action figure, has seen him on several DVD's. And most of all, he's played The Rock on the video games many times. So he was really excited about him being on TV last night even though The Rock had probably retired by the time my son was even born.

[DaddyTorgo]

Watched the video today. I haven't watched in years, but that 23 minutes from last night's show was FANTASTIC. Takes me back to when I was a fan. The Rock is an unbelievable entertainer. I'd pay for Wrestlemania just to see the Rock again.

+1

[wade moore]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8-vf8w7pc

Wow. I JUST started this and just the initial pop he gets on the "Do" of "Do you smell..."

May sound stupid, but gives you chills. Makes me think back to when I actually liked wrestling.

I might be back in.

[wade moore]

"Barney the dinosaur's anus"

Hah. The Rock is so great.

[Neon_Chaos]

Wow. I JUST started this and just the initial pop he gets on the "Do" of "Do you smell..."

May sound stupid, but gives you chills. Makes me think back to when I actually liked wrestling.

I might be back in.

Just semantics, but you mean the "If" of "If you smell..."

:D

[wade moore]

Yeah, that ;).

[PilotMan]

godDAMN that was FanFUCKINGtastic! I gotta echo the statements of others. I got the chills, couldn't keep the smile off my face, and the Rock just blew that out of the water. Wow. Easily the best 23 minutes of wrestling I have seen in years.

[Maple Leafs]

Best intro to a new/returning character since Jericho in the late 90s.

(Hm, I think there was a second guy involved in that one, come to think of it...)

[Toddzilla]

Jeez, when did this thread get taken over by a bunch of teenage girls?

[Neon_Chaos]

Jeez, when did this thread get taken over by a bunch of teenage girls?

Do you think we're teenage girls?

[SirFozzie]

Well, I'd reply but then you'd interrupt with

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK", right?

[Toddzilla]

Do you think we're teenage girls?IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT...

Dammit Foz.... :)

[molson]

Actually, "ability to make grown men mark out like teenage girls" is one of the rarest and most sought-after attributes in a pro wrestler.

Because let's face it, pro wrestling doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense from the perspective of a mature, discerning adult.

[PackerFanatic]

As others have said, I haven't watched wrestling in years, and hearing about this I had to find the video - and needless to say, I actually was excited. I used to love The Rock and what he can do with a mic is unparalleled. I hope this means he sticks around, but I'd be surprised (happily so) to see him do any actual wrestling.

[Neon_Chaos]

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT...

Dammit Foz.... :)

:D

[Neon_Chaos]

RAW's overrun jumped almost 1,000,000 viewers when the Rock showed up. When 1,000,000 people switch channels to watch 20 minutes of you talking, you know you can draw.

[RainMaker]

Pretty good PPV tonight. Predictable, but entertaining. Cena will now be in the Wrestlemania Championship match for the 7th year in a row. Quite a streak.

[Suicane75]

Hopefully the build will be more about Cenas desire to win the belt and vanquish the Miz rather than jokes and goofy no selling of Miz as champion.

[bulletsponge]

please not Cena again. i want to see the Rock kick cenas ass so bad

[Matthean]

Hopefully the build will be more about Cenas desire to win the belt and vanquish the Miz rather than jokes and goofy no selling of Miz as champion.

Rock screws over Cena for the title and then drops Miz as he leaves.

[Maple Leafs]

...rather than jokes and goofy no selling of Miz as champion.
Hey now, don't forget third-grade gay jokes!

[jbergey22]

Rapper Cena just ripped off a funny little promo. He must be stepping up his game in order to compete with this best in the business.

[jbergey22]

I think it will be Cena VS The MIZ at WM and The Rock will be the guest referee.

Yup

2 more returns tonight. I wont spoil it with who but this RAW has been very good.

[Comey]

Yup

2 more returns tonight. I wont spoil it with who but this RAW has been very good.

From what I understand, they won't be the only two returning for that particular angle. There will be one more.

(Don't expect it tonight, though.)

[jbergey22]

From what I understand, they won't be the only two returning for that particular angle. There will be one more.

(Don't expect it tonight, though.)

I have a good guess on who that might be.


HBK?

[SirFozzie]

Kill him, Jerry.

Not a bad way to rescue the heat for this angle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If they bring Andy Kaufman in for the Lawler angle, I'm definitely buying WM.

[jbergey22]

If they bring Andy Kaufman in for the Lawler angle, I'm definitely buying WM.

Haha!

[Mota]

Wow, obviously Vince McMahon's statement about creating new stars is a lie. They sure sacrificed a lot of their up and comers last night in order to get their old guys a bit more momentum.

It seems like there's only two fresh guys that have any hint of a push right now. Alberto Del Rio, who they are REALLY trying to push, making him seem like a good wrestler. The Miz, who even though he is the champ, is a total afterthought at Wrestlemania and to be honest I don't think he'll benefit at all from the spotlight. It's so obvious that the focus is on Cena and The Rock.

If you look at Sheamus, he's so far gone from last Wrestlemania where he put Triple H out. Nexus, who had the hottest angle of last summer, look like they'll be used as sacrificial lambs for Orton over the next weeks. Wade Barrett, one of their top potential heels, I don't even think will be used at all? Daniel Bryan, their US Champion again was a prop to give The Miz a bit of momentum.

The problem with the WWE is that they'll try to come back to these guys later and the cheers will be more quiet, people will be sitting on their hands because they know that to get emotionally invested in these guys is a waste. Look at Evan Bourne. He was viewed by the fans as a potential Rey Mysterio level guy initially. Now he gets cheered but it's more of a "look at the cool moves" cheer vs. "he's my favorite".

Now once Wrestlemania is over and the Rock goes back to Hollywood, Undertaker disapears until Summerslam, Triple H moves to the back room, and once again they'll have no guys with credibility.

I really believe that the WWE writing team needs to be blown up. Too many old guys with their boys club that say they want to build for the future, but in reality they're more interested in hanging onto what they're comfortable with.

[Mota]

Just wanted to add that I like the lineup for Wrestlemania. It's definitely one of the more hyped cards they've had in a LONG time. My comment was just to say that they're paying a high price to get there.

Molson, feel free to jump in now. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

If you look at Sheamus, he's so far gone from last Wrestlemania ...

Thank God for small favors.

[jbergey22]

I agree Mota.

Last night with Sheamus. I didnt understand it at all. Just let Sheamus walk out for no apparent reason and have HHH make him look like a career jobber.

Its like the booking team decided that it didnt make sense when HHH came back last week that he didnt want revenge on Shemus so they decided this would accomplish it.

I dont understand the point of jobbing out your potential stars. Plenty of other wrestlers that currently dont work in the WWE would make fine jobbers.

[molson]

Molson, feel free to jump in now. :)

You know, I like the show, I think I get what they're trying to do - so I've made an early spring revolution to enjoy things at that simpler level and not engage too much in the negativity and the armchair booking, there's no point. I'm just glad they're putting on a product I personally enjoy more than anything they've done since around 2006.

[Comey]

I agree Mota.

Last night with Sheamus. I didnt understand it at all. Just let Sheamus walk out for no apparent reason and have HHH make him look like a career jobber.

Its like the booking team decided that it didnt make sense when HHH came back last week that he didnt want revenge on Shemus so they decided this would accomplish it.



Kevin Dunn, the producer (I think) or RAW, does not like Sheamus whatsoever. Sheamus is something like 1-8 in TV matches this year, and has looked like garbage.

Consider him buried for now.

[Mota]

I just wish they weren't so hateful. If they don't like someone, fire them. Instead they seem to take such delight in humiliating workers who are putting their lives into the product.

I think that my job is full of red tape and politics, but it seems like nothing compared to the WWE. It's all about who you know and who you have watching out for you, I guess the corporate world and the WWE are exactly the same.

[Toddzilla]

I just watched some TNA footage from tonight's Impact that was taped in an arena in Fayetteville, NC, and it's hard to overstate just how much more professional TNA looks in an arena than it does in that cheesy TV studio. Even if they had to paper 85% of the crowd and move every single person to one side of the arena, they need to do this every single week. It just looks big league.

[RainMaker]

I don't get what they're doing with the young talent either. Doesn't make sense to build someone for 6 months to a year and then bury them the following. They build up Sheamus nicely and now he's turning into a jobber for talent who won't be there in a year. I thought a Corre vs Nexus angle would be a nice way to showcase the young talent that they spent half the year building an angle around, but they aren't going with that.

Outside of anything Punk is in, and Del Rio-Edge, the card seems weak to me. The annual John Cena wins/defends a Championship match doesn't really intrigue me at all. And HHH/Taker has no appeal to me either after seeing HBK have epic matches with him. The Rock is going to be the one selling this thing and I thought that promo was brutal last week. I don't even think I'm going to get WM this year unless an interesting storyline/match shows up on the card.

I don't know if their writers are just horrible or if Vince screws with things too much. But they don't seem to have any plans that they carry out. The Nexus angle was great, but why do it if everyone in it is going to get buried in 6 months?

[Mota]

Apparently the writing process is that each writer does a complete Raw on their own, and then Gerwitz cherry picks it and builds the show to present to McMahon. Sounds like a perfect recipe for disjointed writing to me. And even worse is just the use of writers. Wrestlers should be coming up with their own promos with a Booker deciding the overall story lines and winners/losers.

[bulletsponge]

Apparently the writing process is that each writer does a complete Raw on their own, and then Gerwitz cherry picks it and builds the show to present to McMahon. Sounds like a perfect recipe for disjointed writing to me. And even worse is just the use of writers. Wrestlers should be coming up with their own promos with a Booker deciding the overall story lines and winners/losers.

i heard Stephanie is running that part, and she hires college educated SNL wannabe's that arnt even wrestling fans

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ladies & Gentlemen, your winner and NEW NWA World Heavyweight Champion ... Colt Cabana

Title change last night at a TV taping for NWA-Hollywood. A worthy successor to Adam Pearce, whose reign ends after 51 weeks.

[duckman]

http://www.411mania.com/siteimages/rockops_92994.jpg

[SirFozzie]

If you're not down with Stone Cold being the ref for Cole-Lawler at WM, I got three words for ya... KICK WHAM STUNNER!

(Although I was pissed off about the giant turd that Cole dropped on the match beforehand)

[Toddzilla]

What an abortion of a show. That was serious TNA-level awful.

[molson]

I think RAW has taken a step back since Rock showed up, maybe that's just a relative perception, but if he wasn't going to show up on the shows leading up to Mania, they should have just delayed that whole reveal until a week or two before the show.

But I am enjoying the old-school promo hype packages for Mistico (or, "Sin Cara"), he's yet another guy I think will probably see a World Title run within the year, and can provide some fresh matchups for the existing main eventers.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FYtxfjDL3u0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sting over Jeff Hardy in a 90 second PPV main event tonight. Speculation that Hardy was too fucked up to work

[DeToxRox]

Sting over Jeff Hardy in a 90 second PPV main event tonight. Speculation that Hardy was too fucked up to work

Yep. PWI is saying that is the scuttle. How can TNA put Hardy in a match, even if it is a squash, in that position? Can't believe Sting went with it. Just make a three way with RVD/Anderson/Sting or something. Hell, just put Angle/Jarrett on, fuck the storylines.

Inexcusable on TNA. Not only for sticking with Hardy when he is a proven fuck up, but then pulling this tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yep. PWI is saying that is the scuttle. How can TNA put Hardy in a match, even if it is a squash, in that position? Can't believe Sting went with it. Just make a three way with RVD/Anderson/Sting or something. Hell, just put Angle/Jarrett on, fuck the storylines.

Inexcusable on TNA. Not only for sticking with Hardy when he is a proven fuck up, but then pulling this tonight.

Sting has been described as visibly upset after the match, while Hardy apparently stumbled back up the ramp after taking a SDD & quick pin.

Hardy is due in court a week from tomorrow btw. Hope they piss test him.

[DeToxRox]

It'll be yanked soon I am sure but here is the match:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Lckr9OLR2Ow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's a Scott Hall caliber walk to the ring.

[RainMaker]

Any chance it's a work? I just can't imagine they'd let a guy who is that far under the influence go out and wrestle. Liability concerns being one thing and pissing off the crowd/fans is another.

[DeToxRox]

Any chance it's a work? I just can't imagine they'd let a guy who is that far under the influence go out and wrestle. Liability concerns being one thing and pissing off the crowd/fans is another.

TNA isn't creative enough to pull off a ruse like this, and even if it was a ruse, it isn't worth killing what little PPV business you have by trying to swerve people with a minute long PPV Main Event.

[Terps]

About 3 minutes into the video you see the ref make an X with his arms. That usually means something is wrong.

[Terps]

Looks like Sting was forcefully holding Hardy down after the Scorpion Death Drop as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Any chance it's a work? I just can't imagine they'd let a guy who is that far under the influence go out and wrestle. Liability concerns being one thing and pissing off the crowd/fans is another.

If the scuttlebutt is to be believed, this wouldn't have been the first time it's happened with Hardy & has been rumored as the case with the chairshot that left Anderson with a concussion. That in turn connects with reports that Sting flatly refused to work a match of any length with Hardy if he showed up messed up last night.

edit to add: It also wouldn't really be unprecedented, especially under a Bischoff regime. Jericho's book talks about much of the old Worldwide tapings being done with wrestlers either severely hungover or still drunk from the parties the night before, Hall was somewhat notorious for working messed up in WCW as well, and Hardy has been reported as messed up more often than not since his arrival in TNA. It really isn't much of a stretch for me to think they'd send him out there, I'm just a little surprised that Sting had enough juice to force their hand (if that indeed turns out to be the case).

[Flasch186]

Sting didnt allow the kickout.

[molson]

Can't wait for Jeff's rambling, drugged out youtube video blaming everyone else, and then his subsequent mega-push.

TNA is unpredictable, I'll give 'em that.

[SirFozzie]

Interesting comments from the youtube video, they pretty much match up:

2:45- Hardy Says something to ref and leaves ring

3:00- Ref gives the "not ok" signal to the hard cam

3:08- Ref waves someone to come towards ring

3:12- Ref is talking to an agent or someone

3:25-3:35- Ref tells Sting something, Sting says "You kidding me?", then mutters stuff under his breath as he throws coat out of ring.

5:57- Bischoff tells off Hardy

[molson]

The "X" and the Bischoff stuff looked kind of staged, honestly. They would have known Hardy was f'd up before he went out there, they didn't need those traditional wrestling signals (which I think are more used for the fans' benefits these days).

[Toddzilla]

About 3 minutes into the video you see the ref make an X with his arms. That usually means something is wrong.But TNA (and WWE) have used that to work the audience before, so I don't buy it. I think this was a case of TNA just not having sense enough to change the Main Event so they tried to be as insider-cute as possible. Oh, WOW did they fail.

[Toddzilla]

The look on Hardy's face after he triedto kick out and Sting wouldn't let him tells the whole story. They rang the bell the instant the ref counted 3, so they intentianally got Hardy out of there ASAP.

[Neon_Chaos]

Could this be the "Fingerpoke of Doom" moment for TNA?

[molson]

But TNA (and WWE) have used that to work the audience before, so I don't buy it. I think this was a case of TNA just not having sense enough to change the Main Event so they tried to be as insider-cute as possible. Oh, WOW did they fail.

Ya, that's what I'm leaning towards now...Hardy was f'd up, so they decided to go cute with it. There's no way he got all the way to the ring for the main event before they knew this was going to be a problem, and the "X" and the Bischoff stuff was a wink to the fans and those that would see the youtube video the next day. The "X" especially, is something you don't usually see anymore for legitimate purposes - there's plenty of other ways things are communicated back and forth.

[molson]

Could this be the "Fingerpoke of Doom" moment for TNA?

I think there's enough crazy stuff in TNA that this doesn't stand out too much. You wouldn't think you could sell a PPV main event with Hardy anymore - but he's no-showed PPVs before and they still push him (and presumably someone still buys the PPVs), so who knows.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought the comment by Sting (something like "I agree") to someone off camera, presumably a fan who said "that sucked" or something to that effect, was interesting.

As for the fingerpoke of doom moment, I tend to think not. TNA has never gotten close to the heights that WCW did, so there simply isn't as much of a perch to fall off of.

Who knows, maybe Honky Tonk Man will turn out to be right & Hogan is leaving any minute now. If so, then if Bischgoof leaves too then this nightmare might finally come to an end, although I don't have any more confidence in Dixie getting anything right in their absence than I do with their presence.

[DeToxRox]

And your newest WWE Hall of Fame member is ... uh:

DREW CAREY TO ENTER WWE HALL OF FAME

WWE is proud to announce the newest member of the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame — comedian and game show host Drew Carey. The WWE Hall of Fame induction ceremony presented by THQ’s "WWE All Stars" will take place at the Phillips Arena on Saturday, April 2 and the one-hour TV special will air Monday, April 4 at 8/7c on USA Network.

Drew Carey is the latest member of the celebrity wing of the WWE Hall of Fame, joining the likes of Pete Rose, Bob Uecker and William “Refrigerator” Perry. Other members of the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame Class include “The Heartbreak Kid” Shawn Michaels, “Hacksaw” Jim Duggan, “Bullet” Bob Armstrong and the original WWE Diva, Sunny.

Carey established his place in WWE history as a surprise entrant in the 2001 Royal Rumble. However, Carey’s fortunes quickly turned, when the massive WWE Superstar Kane entered the ring, prompting Carey to eliminate himself from the match.

Carey, a former United States Marine Reservist, is the host of “The Price Is Right” and star of “The Drew Carey Show” and “Whose Line Is It Anyway?”. Carey will lead a cast of improvisation all-stars, including Ryan Styles, Colin Mochrie, Greg Proops, Brad Sherwood and Kathy Kinney, in the new series “Drew Carey’s Improv-A-Ganza,” which premieres April 11 at 8 pm ET/PT on GSN. Each episode will showcase a half-hour of improvised sketch comedy complete with audience participation.

[DeToxRox]

And your newest WWE Hall of Fame member is ... uh:

DREW CAREY TO ENTER WWE HALL OF FAME

WWE is proud to announce the newest member of the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame — comedian and game show host Drew Carey. The WWE Hall of Fame induction ceremony presented by THQ’s "WWE All Stars" will take place at the Phillips Arena on Saturday, April 2 and the one-hour TV special will air Monday, April 4 at 8/7c on USA Network.

Drew Carey is the latest member of the celebrity wing of the WWE Hall of Fame, joining the likes of Pete Rose, Bob Uecker and William “Refrigerator” Perry. Other members of the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame Class include “The Heartbreak Kid” Shawn Michaels, “Hacksaw” Jim Duggan, “Bullet” Bob Armstrong and the original WWE Diva, Sunny.

Carey established his place in WWE history as a surprise entrant in the 2001 Royal Rumble. However, Carey’s fortunes quickly turned, when the massive WWE Superstar Kane entered the ring, prompting Carey to eliminate himself from the match.

Carey, a former United States Marine Reservist, is the host of “The Price Is Right” and star of “The Drew Carey Show” and “Whose Line Is It Anyway?”. Carey will lead a cast of improvisation all-stars, including Ryan Styles, Colin Mochrie, Greg Proops, Brad Sherwood and Kathy Kinney, in the new series “Drew Carey’s Improv-A-Ganza,” which premieres April 11 at 8 pm ET/PT on GSN. Each episode will showcase a half-hour of improvised sketch comedy complete with audience participation.

[Toddzilla]

And your newest WWE Hall of Fame member is ... uh:

DREW CAREY TO ENTER WWE HALL OF FAME

WWE is proud to announce the newest member of the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame — comedian and game show host Drew Carey. The WWE Hall of Fame induction ceremony presented by THQ’s "WWE All Stars" will take place at the Phillips Arena on Saturday, April 2 and the one-hour TV special will air Monday, April 4 at 8/7c on USA Network.

Drew Carey is the latest member of the celebrity wing of the WWE Hall of Fame, joining the likes of Pete Rose, Bob Uecker and William “Refrigerator” Perry. Other members of the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame Class include “The Heartbreak Kid” Shawn Michaels, “Hacksaw” Jim Duggan, “Bullet” Bob Armstrong and the original WWE Diva, Sunny.

Carey established his place in WWE history as a surprise entrant in the 2001 Royal Rumble. However, Carey’s fortunes quickly turned, when the massive WWE Superstar Kane entered the ring, prompting Carey to eliminate himself from the match.

Carey, a former United States Marine Reservist, is the host of “The Price Is Right” and star of “The Drew Carey Show” and “Whose Line Is It Anyway?”. Carey will lead a cast of improvisation all-stars, including Ryan Styles, Colin Mochrie, Greg Proops, Brad Sherwood and Kathy Kinney, in the new series “Drew Carey’s Improv-A-Ganza,” which premieres April 11 at 8 pm ET/PT on GSN. Each episode will showcase a half-hour of improvised sketch comedy complete with audience participation.

[Chubby]

So is Drew Carey going into the WWE Hall of Fame?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jeff Hardy sent home from this week's TNA tapings.

Meanwhile Matt tweets ""Well, today has been quite the interesting day to say the least. And yes, Jeff is fine. I'm (definitely) fine. Just sore from busting my ass last night."

And pwinsider says
"Many company employees are very upset about the situation, especially with the decision to allow Hardy to go out in front of the audience considering he stumbled on the ramp and nearly tripped over the ring steps. Others were surprised that an audible wasn't called to "make it up" to the audience. You could also see that Sting was clearly pissed off following the bout.

While Hardy has been sent home from this week's iMPACT! tapings, no further decision has been made regarding his future in the organization. Hardy was going to be booked in this year's Lethal Lockdown match at Lockdown.

Hardy tweeted last night that "things are op." Huh?!

[General Mike]

Could this be the "Fingerpoke of Doom" moment for TNA?

More like the Montreal screwjob, but instead of Jeff Hardy going to WWE, he's going to Jail.

[DeToxRox]

From TNA Spoilers tonight:

*They do a segment where The Pope makes a blind man see, then makes a handicapped man get out of a wheelchair and walk. Pope then says he can't do anything to help heavy woman, taking shots at Samoa Joe and his family. Joe comes out and Pope retreats but beats up Okada in the process. Joe finally runs off Pope. The fans chanted "That was stupid."

It was described on WO as distasteful and dumb and the crowd totally turned on it.

Now that's a Russo one.

[DeToxRox]

Reports are coming out (not on PWI or WO to my knowledge so I tend to be skeptical) that AJ Styles was seriously injured tonight in some absurd powerbomb spot.

[Suicane75]

What an absurd company, run by absurd people.

[General Mike]

I got this from the Observer message board:

An account of the beginning of the show from PWinsider:

Impact opened with TNA champion Sting in the ring holding the old TNA title and Jeff Hardy version. Sting said that before Hulk Hogan tries to overtake the show, he wants them to get out here and face him. Hogan and Eric Bischoff come out. Sting tosses them the Hardy belt and says this is theirs and they can take the garbage. Sting says that Hogan took one of the brightest stars in wrestling, Jeff Hardy, and ruined him with his influence. They acted like Hardy was done as Sting said he can't do anything to help Jeff anymore but he can help TNA. Hogan said that Sting tries to blame everyone else but he's the guy who disappears and shows up when he wants. Hogan said that the only person at fault is Hardy, who couldn't run with Immortal and stand in the shadow of the Hulkster.

[General Mike]

Reports are coming out (not on PWI or WO to my knowledge so I tend to be skeptical) that AJ Styles was seriously injured tonight in some absurd powerbomb spot.

I saw it on the Observer message board, but that doesn't mean anything. Place is full of trolls. Supposedly Bully Ray was involved and hurt as well.

[Mota]

I'd pretend I was seriously injured to be able to take a step away from that garbage. It's so sad. I think this is the most misused I've ever seen talent.

Remember when Hogan came in and said he was here to help promote the young guys and turn them into household names? That's a funny one. I think it took about 15 minutes before he brought the Nasty Boys in.

The problem with TNA is that their "young guys" aren't that young anymore, and they've been so damaged over multiple years of misuse that they aren't the future superstars of TNA anymore. Who is the next young guy? They have no prospects at all. Very very sad.

I hope that AJ is okay.

[General Mike]

Who booked this crap?

[TexasT]

Is there anyone else that cannot stand Michael Cole! What an ass. I don't see why they don't get rid of the guy. Doesn't do anything at all for the show.

[molson]

I feel guilty that I actually want to check out TNA this week. I always DVR it, but I don't always get around to watching it, but I kind of want to see where they go from here.

[General Mike]

Is there anyone else that cannot stand Michael Cole! What an ass. I don't see why they don't get rid of the guy. Doesn't do anything at all for the show.

I agree. Hopefully Wrestlemania is the end of his announcing career. I do think he could be valuable as a heel manager tho.

[bulletsponge]

I feel guilty that I actually want to check out TNA this week. I always DVR it, but I don't always get around to watching it, but I kind of want to see where they go from here.

they go the same place they always go, right down the toilet

[Comey]

Is there anyone else that cannot stand Michael Cole! What an ass. I don't see why they don't get rid of the guy. Doesn't do anything at all for the show.

He's considered by McMahon to be one of the most successful heels in the company; it's been said that McMahon lives vicariously through Cole's character. Considering your comments, I think this means that they're achieving what they want with Cole.

Personally, I found him to be hilarious when I saw him on TV; specifically, I'm looking at The Rock's comeback to RAW, when he was interrupted by the Raw GM. They cut to Cole, who was laughing at Rock. It was a perfect reaction. I can imagine that Cole in a Cube is quite amusing to see, and perfect for the character.

Also, for what it's worth, it's said that Cena and Cole are best friends outside the ring, and travel together. So, I don't expect him to go anywhere anytime soon, with the backing of McMahon and Cena.

[molson]

I'm enjoying Cole a lot.

The whole Cole/Lawler angle on Raw was a lot of fun. Especially how Brian Christopher gassed himself so much during his dancing entrance that he had no breath left for his lines. It was worth it though, because he still had the moves (just not the cardio). And Michael Cole dancing in the background was tremendous. Perhaps I'm just easily amused. Though, I think that's an important trait if you're going to be a pro wrestling fan.

I'm hoping he doesn't just go back to being a regular announcer after Mania - I'd love to see him in any other authority/manager type role.

[bulletsponge]

i like heel Cole. before he was just a cringworthy face anouncer. now hes an asshole you want to see get his ass kicked, which is what a good heel makes you feel

[TexasT]

i like heel Cole. before he was just a cringworthy face anouncer. now hes an asshole you want to see get his ass kicked, which is what a good heel makes you feel

Well, the sooner the better!:D

[RainMaker]

My problem with Cole is that while I hate him, it's more because he shits on good stuff by talking over everything. He's too over the top and needs to know when to let the action speak for itself.

I like good heels, I don't like annoying heels. He's just annoying.

[RainMaker]

Also would like to add that WWE has been adding more of their stuff to Netflix Instant. Some good documentaries. Just watched The Rise and Fall of WCW.

[molson]

Ya, that's a pretty cool development, here's what's currently available on Netflix streaming:

-The True Story of Wrestlemania (this one's new)
-The Rise and Fall of WCW
-The Top 50 Superstars of All-Time
-Breaking the Code: Behind the Walls of Chris Jericho
-Ricky Steamboat: The Life Story of the Dragon
-Bobby "The Brain" Heenan
-The Big Show: A Giant's World
-Twist of Fate: Matt & Jeff Hardy
-Hart & Soul: The Hart Family Anthology
-The John Cena Experience
-Legendary
-Knucklehead
-The Chaperone

[RainMaker]

It would be sweet if they could put in some of the old PPVs. Although I think they have their own service that they have been selling so it's unlikely.

[Scarecrow]

Internet Wrestling Database (http://www.profightdb.com/)

[Matthean]

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/michael-cole-uses-gay-slur-on-twitter-wwe-responds-127137

Cole used the word faggot on his Twitter account.

[RainMaker]

It's so out of character for WWE lately that I can't figure out why he would write that. They insinuate stuff but they never really use crude language anymore. The account is clearly kayfabe and he should have known better.

I'd also add that he tries way too hard to play the heel. It was good when he was subtle, now it's just a caricature.

[Mota]

Is it really out of character? GLAAD had to get involved just last week because of the gay bashing going live on the air. It is a culture of bullying and intolerance. Look how they treat women with good bodies but not fitness model type. It is Fat fat fat until they quit or are fired. Or even look at their "humbling" process where they take a promising talent and humiliate them on air for months to see if they can take it.

[Maple Leafs]

An online casino has posted odds for Wrestlemania:

Edge (+175) vs. Alberto Del Rio (-245)
The Miz (+550) vs. John Cena (-1,050)
The Undertaker (-2,600) vs. Triple H (+1,200)
Randy Orton (-160) vs. CM Punk (+120)
Jerry Lawler (-5,850) vs. Michael Cole (+1,950)
Rey Mysterio (+105) vs. Cody Rhodes (-145)
Sheamus (-260) vs. Daniel Bryan (+180)
Trish Stratus, Snooki, and John Morrison (-750) vs. Dolph Ziggler, Layla, and Michelle McCool (+450)

hxxp://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=228164

[molson]

An online casino has posted odds for Wrestlemania:

Edge (+175) vs. Alberto Del Rio (-245)
The Miz (+550) vs. John Cena (-1,050)
The Undertaker (-2,600) vs. Triple H (+1,200)
Randy Orton (-160) vs. CM Punk (+120)
Jerry Lawler (-5,850) vs. Michael Cole (+1,950)
Rey Mysterio (+105) vs. Cody Rhodes (-145)
Sheamus (-260) vs. Daniel Bryan (+180)
Trish Stratus, Snooki, and John Morrison (-750) vs. Dolph Ziggler, Layla, and Michelle McCool (+450)

hxxp://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=228164

That's funny.

I'd take Cole with those odds - the face usually wins that kind of match but I could see them moving forward with the Cole character as a heel, and him getting a win here with someone else turning heel and aligning with him. Or course, it's much more likely that Lawler kills him, Austin stunners everyone, and Cole goes back to being a regular announcer, but with those odds, i could bet against it and hope for a more interesting outcome.

I'd take Miz to retain, with those odds, if that match wasn't going on last.....and I think they will end with Taker/HHH. Rock might stick around for a couple of weeks or months post-Mania, and if he has some kind of feud with Cena, they don't need the title for that.

Those odds might not favor Taker enough.

Cody Rhodes has been awesome lately, and those are great odds on him - especially with talk that Mysterio may want out soon, and with the younger version of Mysterio coming in soon.

But the best bet might be the mixed tag - the faces will win unless Snooki turns heel and stays with the company for some reason.

[RainMaker]

Is it really out of character? GLAAD had to get involved just last week because of the gay bashing going live on the air. It is a culture of bullying and intolerance. Look how they treat women with good bodies but not fitness model type. It is Fat fat fat until they quit or are fired. Or even look at their "humbling" process where they take a promising talent and humiliate them on air for months to see if they can take it.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you told me that a WWE talent was caught saying that on Twitter, Michael Cole would be far down the list of suspects. The guy has been with the organization for 10 years, has to be vocal with the public for hours a week. Just surprised that he wouldn't have known better, especially on a WWE account.

[Mota]

That was quite the bad slipup though, I agree. They do that stuff all the time but usually a bit more subtle. And yes, Cole should know better.

Some people forget that Twitter isn't the locker room or shower. I'm sure things like that get said all the time there, but saying something on Twitter is more like making a press conference. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I doubt he'll get much credit for it, but Cena is delivering a hell of a promo.

[cmp]

I hadn't watched WWE in years but I've now watched the past three weeks. That was a pretty good final segment. I also hated the way they had been building Taker/HHH until tonight. Tonight's segment should have happened three weeks ago.

[Maple Leafs]

HHH/Taker segment was odd. The whole thing was built around planting the seed that HHH can't win. But nobody thinks he's going to win.

Still, was nice to see the patented Shawn Michaels "sad walking away face" one last time.

[Suicane75]

I thought both the Undertaker/HHH and Cena/Rock/Miz segments were saved by how they finished.

Undertakers smile and tip of his hat while his music played made me mark out a little bit and made up for TRIPLE H TALKING for about 30 minutes.

Poor Miz, I know it's not his fault but very few main eventers have ever looked as out of place in an angle as he does. Cenas promo was interesting but I have no idea where it's going or who's supposed to be the hell or the face or what. The FU on Rock was the perfect heel act but I don't think Cena is going heel so I don't know what to make of it.

[Neon_Chaos]

I thought both the Undertaker/HHH and Cena/Rock/Miz segments were saved by how they finished.

Undertakers smile and tip of his hat while his music played made me mark out a little bit and made up for TRIPLE H TALKING for about 30 minutes.

Poor Miz, I know it's not his fault but very few main eventers have ever looked as out of place in an angle as he does. Cenas promo was interesting but I have no idea where it's going or who's supposed to be the hell or the face or what. The FU on Rock was the perfect heel act but I don't think Cena is going heel so I don't know what to make of it.

He is the greatest WWE champ in history. He's the Miz, and he's awesome.

[Suicane75]

That shtick worked when he was a nuisance undercard heel. Which is what he'll be again in about a week, thank heaven.

[Toddzilla]

He is the greatest WWE champ in history. He's the Miz, and he's awesome.:+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1:

[jbergey22]

So is it going to be
Rock, Miz and Cena in a Triple threat at Backlash? Cena/Rock main eventing Summerslam?

or do you think the WWE can hold off on using the Rock in a match until Summerslam?

[RainMaker]

I doubt he'll get much credit for it, but Cena is delivering a hell of a promo.
He's really good when he's not doing the cheesy babyface gimmick. He had some great moments during the Nexus feud that they screwed up.

[molson]

So is it going to be
Rock, Miz and Cena in a Triple threat at Backlash? Cena/Rock main eventing Summerslam?

or do you think the WWE can hold off on using the Rock in a match until Summerslam?

He's filming a movie (I think more than 1) this summer, so he won't be around that long, but he is confirmed for the Raw after Mania, and he's said he's open to wrestling again. A Backlash match wouldn't shock me, but it wouldn't shock me if never wrestled again either.

[Maple Leafs]

I'd take Cole with those odds
You're rich!

[jbergey22]

Undertaker puts on another WM classic.

Looks like Undertaker may have gotten a real injury. Had to be stretchered out after the match.

From ewrestlingnews.com:

On his way out of the ring, Taker falls to his knees and on his face. Hunter attempts to help, but he's waved off by the referee. Taker grabs the ring apron to get back to his feet, but he can't. Taker appears to be passed out on the arena floor, and the referee and trainer are waiting for a stretcher. Medics roll down to the ring with a mobile gurney, and Taker is helped to his feet and placed on the back of the gurney with the help of medical staff. Taker is taken out of the ring on the back of the mobile stretcher.

[BYU 14]

Just out of morbid curiosity, how big of a trainwreck was Snookies match?

[jbergey22]

Just out of morbid curiosity, how big of a trainwreck was Snookies match?


She actually looked decent. She did the Muta Flip and a Back Flip into a SPLASH.. to end the match. The match itself was so short it was hard to get messed up too badly.

[BYU 14]

She actually looked decent. She did the Muta Flip and a Back Flip into a SPLASH.. to end the match. The match itself was so short it was hard to get messed up too badly.

I find that borderline amazing....Maybe there is a use for her after all :)

[RainMaker]

Yeah, she was actually pretty good in the match considering she has no experience.

[saldana]

that was the worst wrestlemania i have ever seen

lawler carried cole for almost 20 minutes

the taker/hhh match was boring as balls

the miz cant work at all, and the finish was terrible

i feel really bad for anyone unfortunate enough to have paid for that.

the only match that didnt suck was orton/punk

[Comey]

that was the worst wrestlemania i have ever seen

lawler carried cole for almost 20 minutes

the taker/hhh match was boring as balls

the miz cant work at all, and the finish was terrible

i feel really bad for anyone unfortunate enough to have paid for that.

the only match that didnt suck was orton/punk

It's funny...a lot of people are saying it was the best WM since 19.

I was entertained (it was the first WM I've ever seen live), and now they have the biggest feud in years lined up for the summer.

[jbergey22]

Im not sure that many people expected this to be much of a Wrestlemania. The card was weak.

I only got it because of The Rock, Undertaker and its half priced for me.

I disagree with your UT/HHH analysis as I found that another great match in UT's career.

[saldana]

Undertaker puts on another WM classic.

Looks like Undertaker may have gotten a real injury. Had to be stretchered out after the match.

From ewrestlingnews.com:

no offense, but what exactly was classic about him laying on the ground for the last 10 minutes of the match, not hitting a single move for that entire time and blowing the spot trying to lock in his goofy ass looking submission...the close up of HHH in the corner was about 2 minutes long...i cant imagine how boring that match must have been for the people in the stands.

[Comey]

Im not sure that many people expected this to be much of a Wrestlemania. The card was weak.

I only got it because of The Rock, Undertaker and its half priced for me.

I disagree with your UT/HHH analysis as I found that another great match in UT's career.

It was a spotfest. But it was a climatic spotfest, and I enjoyed it.

The injury looked severe and legit; there's speculation (don't know how credible) that he had a heart attack. I wonder if the ending changed to the submission. Considering he wasn't even supposed to wrestle, due to his shoulder being so weak, I think Taker did okay, and let HHH dictate things.

Really, even though I thought Taker playing the Flair card (being ultra-vulnerable) was goofy at the time, it was the way to go; I don't recall Taker's streak ever appearing so ready to be vanquished as tonight.

[jbergey22]

no offense, but what exactly was classic about him laying on the ground for the last 10 minutes of the match, not hitting a single move for that entire time and blowing the spot trying to lock in his goofy ass looking submission...the close up of HHH in the corner was about 2 minutes long...i cant imagine how boring that match must have been for the people in the stands.

Because they were able to suspend belief and while it didnt top either HBK/UT match this was very well done in their own way. Its gotta be tough for the performers to try and sell that UT is going to actually lose when everyone knows he isnt. After the tombstone piledriver I thought the streak may be over.

[saldana]

Because they were able to suspend belief and while it didnt top either HBK/UT match this was very well done in their own way. Its gotta be tough for the performers to try and sell that UT is going to actually lose when everyone knows he isnt. After the tombstone piledriver I thought the streak may be over.

i thought that was going to be the end too.

it just didnt do anything for me...they each had one "holy shit" spot, with the backdrop off one announce table and the spinebuster through the other, but beyond that, it wasnt even close to hell in a cell with foley, or UT/Edge

[saldana]

dola, and if there was a real injury in that match, i think it was HHH's left wrist...he was cradling it after that backdrop and when the showed the replay, you could see it hit the pad kind of awkwardly.

[Comey]

i thought that was going to be the end too.

it just didnt do anything for me...they each had one "holy shit" spot, with the backdrop off one announce table and the spinebuster through the other, but beyond that, it wasnt even close to hell in a cell with foley, or UT/Edge

I don't know why you'd expect to get that. Taker wasn't even supposed to wrestle, from everything I've read over the last several weeks. The fact that he did what he did is a bit of a miracle in itself.

[jbergey22]

It was a spotfest. But it was a climatic spotfest, and I enjoyed it.

The injury looked severe and legit; there's speculation (don't know how credible) that he had a heart attack. I wonder if the ending changed to the submission. Considering he wasn't even supposed to wrestle, due to his shoulder being so weak, I think Taker did okay, and let HHH dictate things.

Really, even though I thought Taker playing the Flair card (being ultra-vulnerable) was goofy at the time, it was the way to go; I don't recall Taker's streak ever appearing so ready to be vanquished as tonight.

As a disclaimer these are just web rumors but they are saying UT had very low blood pressure after the match and had to be taken to the hospital. Sounds scary enough.

[Comey]

As a disclaimer these are just web rumors but they are saying UT had very low blood pressure after the match and had to be taken to the hospital. Sounds scary enough.

The scene of the trainer waving his hand in Taker's eye and Taker not responding told me something was more severe. HHH being waved off by the ref, when he was trying to help, also comes off as being legit.

[Neon_Chaos]

AWWEEEESOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME!

[Neon_Chaos]

I would also like to add that CM Punk was the best thing about the PPV. The guy is gold on he mic, and a diamond in the ring. His facial expressions during his match against Orton were priceless.

[Terps]

It was pretty meh, glad I don't pay to watch these. Sheamus/Danielson gets bumped to a dark match, the placement of where matches were on the card was terrible. The ending was awful (but as a Miz fan, Cena not having the belt makes up for that.)

Very surprised Del Rio didn't win, Cole/Lawler went on far too long (just like Bret/Vince did last year,) Rey/Cody, LayCool/Dolph vs. Snooki/Trish/JoMo, and Corre vs. Kane/Show/Santino/Kofi were smoke break matches for me, so I can't comment on them.

Taker's streak is what it is, you can buildup suspense all you want, but everyone knows what the end result will be.

Punk/Orton was probably the best match, but that's not saying much.

[Suicane75]

I thought it was a fine show that suffered from 2 average workers trying to rush through the main event. Add in them being pigeonholed with Rock and it was sort of a big clusterfuck.

Anyone who wasn't into the last 10 minutes of HHH/Undertaker, well I dunno. I thought it was brilliantly done, sloppy devils gate aside. I guarantee a good portion of that crowd who didn't believe for one second that HHH was gonna win were on the edge of their seats when he delivered the tombstone.

Punk/Orton was really fun, Del Rio/Edge was good and Cody Rhodes fucking ruled the night with a beautiful delayed superplex.

The shit was short and the main matches were all solid. The problem is that we were expecting an iconic or memorable finish to the show when really there was none to be had other than Rock somehow coming out of the show with the belt.

[jbergey22]

The shit was short and the main matches were all solid. The problem is that we were expecting an iconic or memorable finish to the show when really there was none to be had other than Rock somehow coming out of the show with the belt.

I was actually thinking this might happen when he came back to the ring. With WM's being so predictable about having the face winning the final match of the night I thought this was coming to have the fans leave "happy."

And I agree the ending of the Main Event didnt make a whole lot of sense and usually WM isnt an event they use for advancing storylines.

[RainMaker]

The show wasn't that great although not as big of a disaster as it could have been. It suffered from the same problems that have plagued the company for years now. Horrible writing, no build-up, and no true main eventers. It was disguised a bit in years past because HBK-Undertaker stole the show.

Punk/Orton was good and Punk really should be a main eventer in the business. He rarely wins anymore which is sad because he is so good on the mic and in matches. Definitely gets the crowd riled up. While I like Miz, he's nowhere near as skilled as Punk is in the ring. The main event would have been better if it was Punk/Cena, although I do understand why they went with Miz (he gives good interviews).

Taker is well past his prime although I don't mind him on the card. It's a good match in the middle of the show. I'd rather have seen him go against a young star who could carry the match a bit more. You could tell these two had not been in a ring in some time. They don't have to turn every Taker WM match into an "epic" performance. Could have been about 5 minutes less and I'd be fine with it.

Don't really understand some of the decisions either with young talent. Not putting Sheamus-Bryan on the card seems dumb. Having The Corre job to some guys who don't need the win was bad. And building Del Rio up to just have him crap out in a WM opener seems dumb. Miz winning and looking somewhat strong was a plus, although I thought the end was really stupid. There was no point to the countout and they could have had the Rock come out when the ref took the bump. The crowd also seemed to be dead during the match which I guess is expected since neither guy is really that over with the crowd.

Not sure where the buyrate will fall for this. Sort of sad that the main attraction to their biggest event of the year is a guy who hasn't wrestled a match in 7 years. Shows how weak the roster is. A below average WM that is hampered by the same problems the company has faced for years. Should be interesting to see how low buyrates and ratings drop without the Rock there to drive it up.

[Neon_Chaos]

Here is a little Wrestlemania tidbit to wrap your heads around:

Snookie has more Wrestlemania wins than Jerry Lawler.

[Toddzilla]

Up until the HHH-Taker match, WM was a total trainwreck bordering on a TNA-level disaster.

[Toddzilla]

From the Torch:
During WWE's WrestleMania 27 PPV on Sunday night, TNA wrestler Kurt Angle expressed irritation with WWE wrestlers for what he considered move-stealing at WrestleMania.

Angle pointed a finger at Randy Orton, who executed the Angle Slam during his match against C.M. Punk, and Jack Swagger, who uses the Anklelock manuever. Orton then responded to Angle's Twitter posts overnight after Mania.

-- Angle posted on Twitter: "To WWE wrestlers, Don't use my Finish. Get more Creative. Hmmmm- Orton. Did I say that? I heard Orton had an Awesome match though. Ur welcome.

"I guess Swagger will use my Ankle Lock as well. Very creative. I'm the Best in the World. You Guys will never be Kurt Angle. Can I get an AMEN.

"Kurt Angle will never die. TNA. WWE. I'm a leader. Not follower. Why would WWE use my finishes? Is it because I won't go back? R Orton- Angle Slam. M Cole- Ankle Lock? They have some nerve.

"Jerry Lawlor did it too. But He is a Legend. WWE really stuck it to Me. No Love lost. I'm glad that I helped Your biggest Event of the Year."

-- Orton replied on Twitter (without naming Angle by name): "Everything's been done before as far as 'moves' go in the sports entertainment. I want to thank SCSA for the 'Thesz Press.' And I know for a fact that SCSA got the 'Thesz Press' from Dutch Mantell.

"Point being, instead of taking offense to someone using your move, consider it a sign of respect. Btw does anyone know what Ken Shamrocks finish was? I believe Jack Swagger used ankle lock outta respect for Ken?

goddamn that's great stuff from Orton.

[molson]

goddamn that's great stuff from Orton.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Kurt Angle thinks pro wrestling was invented in 1998.

[Maple Leafs]

The booking of the main event was just bizarre.

You've spent two months selling the entire show around the Rock's involvement in the main event, so you have to know that the crowd won't be into anything until he shows up. Nobody cares about the action, nobody buys the fake finish. Fine.

But then when he does show up, you get 30 seconds and then an immediate payoff? No tension, no suspense, just a quick sneak attack? It's as if the writers really don't understand what makes a crowd work.

Not to mention that they apparently just used the main event of Wrestlemania to set up a feud for the next PPV. Strange.

[bulletsponge]

nothings strange in the modern WWE. vince and company have lost it. i and everyone expect them to botch it, and they do

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's as if the writers really don't understand what makes a crowd work.

I dunno, they managed to find a way to get Snookie over (or at least avoid an epic trainwreck while putting her over).

[molson]

The booking of the main event was just bizarre.

You've spent two months selling the entire show around the Rock's involvement in the main event, so you have to know that the crowd won't be into anything until he shows up. Nobody cares about the action, nobody buys the fake finish. Fine.

But then when he does show up, you get 30 seconds and then an immediate payoff? No tension, no suspense, just a quick sneak attack? It's as if the writers really don't understand what makes a crowd work.

Not to mention that they apparently just used the main event of Wrestlemania to set up a feud for the next PPV. Strange.

Ya, I definitely would have preferred Rock being out there the entire main event and being a general nuisance throughout (he was basically booked as part of the main event after all, and I agree that the match really didn't even "start" until he was out there), but I guarantee that if they did that everybody would be complaining that the Rock hogged the main event spotlight and that he wouldn't even let Miz/Cena have their match first.

And is the first time a heel retained in the final match at Mania? I think HHH might have done it once, I can't remember. I think Miz may have officially joined the "list of main eventers everybody thinks is the problem" group after this push. He's certainly the least talented of that group, so I think his shelf life is going to be a lot shorter than the others. Not sure it's time to put those fossils Cena (33 years old) and Orton (31 years old) out to pasture just yet. Taker and HHH are old and about to retire, but Edge says he wants to go another 5 years (I wonder if Miz will last that long), and Punk and Del Rio are also both in their early 30s (and as a bonus, are not yet overexposed - despite the desires by many to blow the whole load with those guys now.). And it only takes the right guy a year or two to be a mega-star, as we've seen over and over again. There will be main eventers in 2012 and 2013 we haven't heard of yet.

I really did think HHH was going to win with that tombstone, and I'm amazed and shocked he was able to make me think that. That match was the first on the show to really feel like wrestlemania. And I do have a guess that 'Taker wants to lose to somebody at Mania before he retires, and I don't think it's going to be an up-and-coming guy, but an established star that 'Taker respects (and I look forward to that match, because that will REALLY piss people off.)

Sweet Jesus did Cole/Lawler take a long time. It kind of looked like Austin was getting bored on the 18th "put Lawler's leg on the rope and stomp it" spot. That could have been a fun 5 minutes, if it had been trimmed down.

[molson]

You're rich!

And was Cole already back to the back by the time the GM made that announcement? I think we may have a GM reveal soon if that was the case...

[Toddzilla]

I was shocked - SHOCKED - at the pop the Miz got when he kicked out of Cena's finisher.

He's over, goddamit, and he's...

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE

[Comey]

And was Cole already back to the back by the time the GM made that announcement? I think we may have a GM reveal soon if that was the case...

I thought the same thing, but someone told me he was on the ramp when the announcement was made. I still think he's the GM...but I think someone's in cahoots with him.

Really, and I came to this conclusion last night...I think the GM should stay anonymous. This current GM can be both heel and face. It's flexible. It's a nuisance at times, but it has often worked. And it gives Cole a vehicle to be a total jackass, which is an added bonus.

Adding a face to the GM forces the fans to pick a side. In all honesty, the GM is perfect right now, in my view.

[Neon_Chaos]

I was shocked - SHOCKED - at the pop the Miz got when he kicked out of Cena's finisher.

He's over, goddamit, and he's...

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE!

[Matthean]

AWWWWEEEESOOOOMMMEEEE!

Worst. Champion. Ever. :lol:

[Toddzilla]

Worst. Champion. Ever. :lol:
wrong
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