I've noticed more and more people voluntarily wearing masks at the grocery store here. I'm not but an interesting trend.

I'm starting to wear them again. I'm vaxxed and not that worried. But it is an incredibly light burden, and if I can make anyone with children or who is immunocompromised more comfortable, then why not do it?

I've noticed more and more people voluntarily wearing masks at the grocery store here. I'm not but an interesting trend.
I have been seeing more recently as well, which is surprising.

COVID exposure and racist slurs at raucous meeting under investigation | FOX 2 (https://fox2now.com/news/st-louis-county-to-address-covid-exposure-at-raucous-council-meeting/)

St Louis county council meeting about the mask mandate imposed by the County Executive.

I've noticed more and more people voluntarily wearing masks at the grocery store here. I'm not but an interesting trend.

I've noticed also, and I am currently on Nantucket where at least 50% of people are wearing them.

The interesting thing in my neck of the woods will be what happens when kids go back to school. There is a VERY vocal group of parents who are very much against kids wearing masks in schools.

Sen. Lindsey Graham tests positive for COVID-19, despite being vaccinated | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen-lindsey-graham-tests-positive-covid-despite-vaccinated)

I’m confused. Have I got this right, that Graham has caught a disease that isn’t really a big deal, but it was only mild for him because of the vaccine that Trump heroically produced, but that people shouldn’t take?

Hurrah, we hit it! Better late than never I guess. More first jabbers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/02/covid-vaccine-us-reaches-bidens-70percent-goal-for-adults-a-month-behind.html
Seventy percent of U.S. adults have had at least one shot of a Covid vaccine, according to data published Monday by the CDC, about a month behind President Joe Biden’s Fourth of July goal.
:
The nation is reporting an average of about 660,000 vaccinations per day as of Sunday, according to the CDC, far from peak levels of the more than 3 million daily shots in mid-April but up 14% from one week earlier.

The number of first vaccine doses has climbed more sharply than the overall rate in recent days, representing new people getting their first shots. An average of about 432,000 first doses were reported administered every day over the past seven days as of Sunday, according to the CDC, up 24% from a week earlier. The states with the lowest vaccination rates and worst outbreaks are seeing the biggest increases in first doses, a CNBC analysis found.

I was wondering if we would get a small surge in vaccinations with all the troubling news of the Delta variant. Had a friend who was more aloof than anti-vaxx who finally ran out and got their first shot.

Played a lot of Pirates sailing around the Caribbean so the 2 French colonies (?) caught my eye. Wonder what the deal is with such low vaccination rates (vs mainland France) ... have to believe the vaccines are readily available for them?

Guadeloupe is latest French island to lock down amid 'catastrophic' COVID situation | Euronews (https://www.euronews.com/2021/08/03/guadeloupe-is-latest-french-island-to-lock-down-amid-catastrophic-covid-situation)
Guadeloupe is the latest French island to announce a partial COVID lockdown, as authorities describe the health situation as "catastrophic".
:
"We are in a catastrophic situation, we have exceeded 3,000 cases per week," Valérie Denux, director-general of the Regional Health Agency (ARS) of Guadeloupe, told reporters.

More than 3,100 new infections were recorded last week on the island of 395,700 inhabitants — nearly triple the amount registered the week prior and more than ten times the amount observed two weeks ago.
:
French overseas territories have low vaccination rates with just 27.7% of Guadeloupe residents over the age of 18 having received at least one dose of the vaccine by July 28. In Martinique, only 16.14% of the population is fully vaccinated, while on La Réunion, 30.2% of the population is now fully inoculated.

Across the whole of France, 77% of adults have received at least one dose and 66% have been administered a full vaccination course.

Michigan still looks good in terms of case numbers despite being a little below the national average nation-wide, but it's starting to move in the wrong direction now. Curious to see if the Whitmer Wars resume in the fall.

Here's a perfect example of a flawed mindset.

Most people who aren’t vaccinated view vaccine as a greater risk than covid-19, poll finds (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/04/kff-poll-coronavirus-vaccine-unvaccinated-americans/)

You can't tell me that these people are basing it on the available stats. I thought the cure couldn't be worse than the disease? That's what they said all along, and now they're like, um...this cure is worse than the disease, because I don't trust actual science. There is no available data that shows the vaccine is a greater risk than the disease itself.

Local stats showed up on my feed. A little disappointed that we are below national average but not too surprised. Definitely a GOP/Trump stronghold.

Other than schools, county isn't too "packed". I don't think I'll be wearing masks to Kroger (in and out) but I won't be sitting inside any restaurants anytime soon. Unfortunately the barber place I go to has gone maskless so may have to get haircut first thing in mornings to miss the crowd.

The following statistics are from an Aug. 1 Georgia Department of Public Health report:

Forsyth County residents fully vaccinated – 108,482 (48 percent of residents)

Forsyth County residents with at least one vaccine dose – 117,736 (52 percent of residents)

Forsyth County COVID-19 confirmed new daily cases – 74 percent increase from July 1

Northside Hospital Forsyth admissions due to COVID-19 – 330 percent increase since July 26

Data provided by Northside Hospital Forsyth

According to the Department of Public Health report, which can be found online, Georgia had 586 positive COVID-19 cases on July 1. The total number of statewide new cases on Aug. 2 was 2,331, an increase of 75 percent.

Michigan still looks good in terms of case numbers despite being a little below the national average nation-wide, but it's starting to move in the wrong direction now. Curious to see if the Whitmer Wars resume in the fall.

She basically said her hands are tied now because the 1945 Emergency Powers Act got rescinded. Winter will be a shitshow.

Another somewhat ethical dilemma. WHO is asking wealthier countries to not do booster shots (e.g. 3rd shots) until much/rest of world gets vaccinated.

I am sympathetic to the ask, but no western leader will survive if there is a massive 4th wave (or is it 5th next?). Although death tolls are unlikely to reach the heights of last year, it could still be bad enough to cause re-election issues. And it is a leaders responsibility to protect his/her citizens first.

So from a humanitarian POV, its the right thing to do. But from the best interest of a country, nope.

However, the US should continue donating anything that is excess and also continue $ contributions to the global fund.

We just basically did a tour of Florida via a travel baseball tournament in North Florida, quick stop back home and then down to South Florida to visit family. Since I visited the grocery store in all three locations, I observed the amount of mask wearing that I saw in each location. I did not do an actual count. This is not meant to be scientific.;)

WAYYY more mask usage than I expected in North Florida on a busy Saturday afternoon. My guess would be about 20-25% of the shoppers were wearing masks. If you asked me beforehand, I probably would have the percentage would have been less than 5% given what I learned living in that area in the past. Locally, we have been pretty steady around 30-35% for the past month but I saw a slight increase when we made the quick pit stop on Monday. In South Florida, it really felt like I was at the store in April 2020 instead of August 2021. There were less people in the store than the previous two times. At LEAST 60% of the store were wearing masks. The social distancing was noticeable as well. People were giving each other at least a couple of feet as they waited to grab a item from a shelf or waited in line at the checkout area. I even saw people use the sanitizing wipes to clean the credit card keypad. I can't remember the last time I saw that happen.

We're in St. Augustine for the week and we've noticed more mask-wearing as the week has gone on. Hearing about the lack of space in J-ville hospitals must be getting through to some.

We are in Nantucket for two weeks and mask wearing is off the charts. To the point I feel bad not wearing one. Some places close to70% I would say, and probably 50% of people just walking on the street. Some places requiring them, I wanted to go into Vineyard Vines and I couldn't because my masks were in the car (yes this is the definition of a first world problem)

Another somewhat ethical dilemma. WHO is asking wealthier countries to not do booster shots (e.g. 3rd shots) until much/rest of world gets vaccinated.

I have come across a couple people online claiming to have made appointments with fake info in order to get a 3rd shot.

I have come across a couple people online claiming to have made appointments with fake info in order to get a 3rd shot.

So credible!

Just to prove Brian's point that it's always both sides, this is an article about one of the current leaders of the local county GOP. He recently helped lead a hostile takeover because they didn't feel the elected officials were subservient enough to Trump, which was impossible.

Anyway, he's currently in the ICU about to be vented. His wife was just released. They are both unvaccinated. In his embedded Facebook post, he rails against vaccinations, masks and government healthcare. This is while is he currently in the hospital.

So I think both sides can come together and say that people like this deserve every terrible things that can happen to them and hopefully no one useful was infected by these deplorable people.

Greenville County GOP leader Pressley Stutts battling COVID-19 (https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/greenville/2021/08/03/greenville-county-gop-leader-pressley-stutts-battling-covid-19/5374447001/)

Are we at the point where we can say "ironically" that "I for one, don't want my government taxes going to support this man for one minute!"

One of the GOP Reps suing Pelosi over the mask mandate has tested positive for COVID.

One of the GOP Reps suing Pelosi over the mask mandate has tested positive for COVID.

Its just the flu unless he gets intubated or dies.

Let's us know when he or his family is quoted saying "should have gotten the stupid shot".

Its just the flu unless he gets intubated or dies.

Let's us know when he or his family is quoted saying "should have gotten the stupid shot".

If he dies, he just needs the Missouri coroner to change the cause of death.

Just to prove Brian's point that it's always both sides

That isn't, wasn't, and will continue to not be my point at all.

I think both sides can come together and say that people like this deserve every terrible things that can happen to them

Nah. They're still human beings. That's plenty to not wish extra suffering on them.

To add to the mask-wearing informal survey, it's still very low here in W. Michigan - it's a noticeable outlier when you see someone wearing one.

I am doing to a comic book convention with my kids tomorrow, and then to a Braves game Sunday. I am going to have to be in a mask all weekend. It's a bummer.

I was out and about yesterday a bit, went to Publix, and noticed the staff all wearing masks again, and a lot but certainly not all customers wearing them. I think mainly its because the Delta variant is a hotspot here-maybe the largest in the state, probably no doubt due to tourists flocking here for their missed vacations and a governor against mask mandates. I'll be curious to see how many parents go the homeschooling route given masks are not a requirement in schools here.

And like a lot of the country, the majority of covid patients are the unvaccinated.

My organization is holding a pretty large conference ahead, and just announced that we would be urging/recommending that everyone attending wear a mask regardless of vaccination status. We're going to get it from both sides, it's already starting from one.

I was working remotely at my kid's gymnastics practice yesterday morning. Normally I've been the only one there, but yesterday there were at least 40 people watching in a 75x15 room. I was one of three with a mask and just worked in my hot car for the next 3 hours after about 20 minutes.

This week was my first full week back in the office since March 2020. Yesterday I had a cough start to develop. Didn’t get any better overnight so I’m going to go get myself tested.

Incubation is approx 3 weeks, so you should be okay.

Incubation is approx 3 weeks, so you should be okay.

I’ve been other places too, just thought the timing was ironic.

I’m vaccinated so not too worried if I am positive.

This one is from the "I have a feeling it's about to get a lot worse here" pile. So, remember, Houston was a major outbreak zone last summer and I have suspected for a while that we actually had a worse outbreak then than during the winter. The case numbers were lower but the deaths appeared to be higher (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/state/texas/county/harris-county) - however, I don't think our capacity to count either was all that great yet in the summer.

I think some of you have seen stories about how some places are using the amount of virus in the wastewater to forecast future outbreaks and it's been very reliable. Well, Houston's previous peak was in July of last year. Harris County (i.e. Houston) just recorded samples this week that are 320%(!!!) of their previous high. Not a little higher. 3x as high.

COVID-19 in Houston wastewater currently at levels 'never seen before' | khou.com (https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/houston-covid-19-wastewater-numbers-update/285-7366e609-d820-4590-98b2-2726847801bd)

SI

19 days ago there were 250 cases reported in a day in South Carolina. 3200 were reported today. These are the cases from Wednesday and they no longer report weekend numbers, so shots going to be even more soon.

If that's where we are with half the country fully vaccinated and another 20% partway there, stick a fork in us pretty much.

I want to be positive, but it's hard to be under those conditions if they persist.

Imagine if we would’ve gotten a faster start on vaccinations… just imagine you know if say someone a huge amount of people looked up to stated that he himself got vaccinated and encouraged everyone else to ASAP because, you know, there’s not a micro chip in it, or it’s a threat to your freedom. Sounds like a song.


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Incubation is approx 3 weeks, so you should be okay.

for facehuggers?

for facehuggers?

Pretty sure they pop out of the chest quicker than 3 weeks.

If that's where we are with half the country fully vaccinated and another 20% partway there, stick a fork in us pretty much.

I want to be positive, but it's hard to be under those conditions if they persist.

I'm optimistic it won't get near as bad as last year for the vaccinated (and probably the partially vaccinated). Keep the faith.

I'm hopeful Delta will push the undecideds/partial to get vaccinated. 12-15 are now approved. Hopefully FDA approval soon.

I'm not a FDA expert and don't know about their inner workings, but article below implies FDA has been slow. It also explains some why we haven't seen more PSA/ads for vaccination (e.g. replace viagra-and-like ads with covid vaccinations).

With FDA approval, more would get COVID-19 vaccine | Commentary - Orlando Sentinel (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/guest-commentary/os-op-coronavirus-vaccine-hesitancy-fda-approval-20210807-x2pec3uaqrb2tka3bapbmr4ft4-story.html)
Many of these people are essentially wondering why the FDA hasn’t fully approved the shots if they’re as safe and effective as public health officials claim. A staggering 49% of wait-and-seers say that full approval would make them more likely to get vaccinated.

Second, it’d enable Moderna, Pfizer, and Johnson & Johnson to advertise the shots directly to consumers. Drug ads are effective. The House Commerce Committee previously found that every “$1 spent on direct-to-consumer advertising results in up to a $6 increase in sales.”

Now would be a great time to get those great marketing minds to work convincing people to sit for their COVID-19 shots.

Third, it’d give private-sector institutions, from companies to universities, more leverage to push workers and students to get vaccinated.

At certain workplaces — such as nursing homes full of elderly and immunocompromised people — it’s eminently reasonable for management to order workers to get the shot or find a different job. Medical provider-groups are already pushing hospitals to institute vaccine requirements.

The Kaiser Family Foundation found that four in 10 unvaccinated workers would get the shots if required as a condition of employment. If the FDA fully authorizes the vaccines, it’d put employers who decide to require vaccination on firmer legal ground.

I'm optimistic it won't get near as bad as last year for the vaccinated (and probably the partially vaccinated). Keep the faith.

I agree with that, I'm just talking more long-term. Whatever the ceiling is on the number of vaccinated people, I don't see it being enough to stop this kind of outbreak if we're seeing this now, nevermind in cooler weather/holidays/etc.

I did not realize the advertising part of full approval.

But why would the drug companies spend money advertising the vaccine? My sense is that, globally, they will be able to sell their shots for years without buying ads.

dola:

And I hope that I am being too cynical here and am wrong about this, but I think that a lot of the 49% waiting for full approval will just pass on to another excuse once full approval is out there. It will become "approval was rushed" or "We won't know anything about long term effects for 10 years" or something like that.

I had a friend who had no interest in football whatsoever. When the news started to come out about CTE, she jumped on her moral high horse and started talking about how she could never support entertainment that put people's brains at risk to such an extent. Of course, she had no interest in football; the CTE thing was just a convenient thing to say that sounded better than "I just don't like it."

I see a lot of the "full approval" folks the same way. They don't want the shot for whatever reason. And "waiting for full approval" sounds like a good reason to not do what they have no intention of ever doing.

I hope that I'm wrong and that there will be a rush of vaccinations when it is fully approved.

And I hope that I am being too cynical here and am wrong about this, but I think that a lot of the 49% waiting for full approval will just pass on to another excuse once full approval is out there.

same on both counts

...you see it already. If "full approval" comes in a month or two, then lots of those people will shift to "well, you know they forced it through the approval process..."

Just got a text from a (vaccinated) friend. We ran into her on Tuesday evening outdoors in our neighborhood. She hadn’t seen my 12yo daughter in person in over a year and they hugged. Her 12yo daughter ran up and hugged Carter as well. Then on Thursday, Carter and her daughter volunteered together at an outdoor event, and worked in fairly close proximity to one another for 2.5 hours, all outside.

Good morning Ben, I just wanted to let you know that I was unfortunately diagnosed with Covid yesterday. I have been vaccinated and had mild cold symptoms on Thursday but did not think much about it since I had a cold a week and a half ago and tested negative then, plus we had been outside every night and I have some seasonal allergies. Anyway, Thursday night right before bed I noticed loss of smell and got tested yesterday which was unfortunately positive. I was not in close proximity to Carter very much Thursday evening and {her daughters name} has no symptoms. I will let you know if that changes. I am sorry. I would have not been at VBS if I had any suspicion at all.

At least she told you and was honest. I wonder how many situations like this caused a much bigger outbreak, especially prior to vaccination, because people didn't want a scarlet letter.

I was trying to imagine the guilt you'd feel if you had to write an email like and were NOT vaccinated, but then I remembered that those people don't care about things like that.

I was trying to imagine the guilt you'd feel if you had to write an email like and were NOT vaccinated, but then I remembered that those people don't care about things like that.

I would imagine if you're still unvaccinated at this point you would feel just as bad spreading covid as you would spreading the common cold.

I was trying to imagine the guilt you'd feel if you had to write an email like and were NOT vaccinated, but then I remembered that those people don't care about things like that.

not even sure what the right response here is... grinding teeth i guess

I hope that I'm wrong and that there will be a rush of vaccinations when it is fully approved.

I think you're overly cynical but also partly correct. We're already seeing a significant uptick in vaccinations due to the spread of the delta variant. I think we'll see more once approval comes, but there will also be those in the category you describe.

Only time will tell how many.

Ya know, the unvaccinated are a funny people. Their laughter is contagious.

My wife's step-dad is now blaming vaccinated people for the Delta variant spreading.

Go Darwin!

www.thedailybeast.com/anti-vaxx-radio-host-and-former-newsmax-anchor-dick-farrel-dies-of-coronavirus

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Heard a rumor that FDA may authorize vaccines for under 12 much sooner than expected. That would be huuuge!<br><br>Almost 50 million children in the US under age 12. Hoping this happens soon as it could stop spread and save lives- especially with school season starting!🤞🏽</p>&mdash; Jerome Adams (@JeromeAdamsMD) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeromeAdamsMD/status/1423449901170675712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 6, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Former Surgeon General.

He says himself that this is just a rumor. But I imagine that he hears a higher class of rumors than I do.

I&rsquo;ve got covid

Luckily I was smart enough to get vaccinated so it&rsquo;s a light cold instead of my impending doom

Science wins!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My wife's step-dad is now blaming vaccinated people for the Delta variant spreading.

I figured I would have heard this from a patient at this point...but I actually heard it today from a colleague who informed me that the vaccines are causing variants. :banghead:

I figured I would have heard this from a patient at this point...but I actually heard it today from a colleague who informed me that the vaccines are causing variants. :banghead:

That's exactly what he told my wife today. I'm guessing it's a Fox News talking point or something.

My wife's step-dad is now blaming vaccinated people for the Delta variant spreading.

I thought they had decided on it being brown people from other countries?

I thought they had decided on it being brown people from other countries?

Kettle logic - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_logic)

My county in jersey has the highest rate of covid. We also have a ton of shire resort towns. I’m being told it’s all the New Yorkers bringing it down.

Pill, inhaler vaccination would be great ... assuming the $ is right.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57553602
In a white, airy laboratory in Medicon Village, one of southern Sweden's largest science parks, chemist Ingemo Andersson holds up a thin, plastic inhaler, half the size of a matchbox.

Her team is hoping this tiny product could play a big role in the global fight against coronavirus allowing people to take powdered versions of future vaccines at home.

"It's easy and it's really cheap to produce," says Johan Waborg, CEO of the firm, which usually makes inhalers for patients with asthma.

"You just remove a little plastic slip and then the vaccine inhaler is activated and you just put it in your mouth, take a deep breath and inhale."
:
"The game-changer is that you could distribute the [powder] vaccine extremely easily without the cold chain, and it can be administered without the need for healthcare providers," says ISR's founder, Ola Winquist, a professor of immunology at the Karolinska Institute, one of Sweden's leading medical universities.

The company is currently testing its vaccines on the Beta (South African) and Alpha (UK) variants of Covid-19.

There's a study that said asthma inhalers were only used properly in something like a third of uses. An over the counter inhaler seems like a very risky way to deliver a vaccine.

Went to the Apple Store in the big mall in Raleigh yesterday. The store required masks. The mall did not, but I'd say that about 40% of people had masks. And post-CDC announcement and pre-Delta, we were down to almost no masks.

So the message is getting through to some. I also think, though, that this is a Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill thing. I would fully expect that most of the state is still going the Florida/Texas route.

Got Covid at a baseball tourney. Vaccinated so it's just a mild cold.

Cancelled our trip Next weekend to New Orleans because I'll be just coming off the 19 and it's frickin' dangerous to travel and go to NO at this time.

The friends we were going with are pissed we're canceling... no "hope you're feeling ok." nada

Our friendship has been changed. My kids will be wearing masks at school because our Governor is a fuckin' idiot.

hope you're feeling ok

Got Covid at a baseball tourney. Vaccinated so it's just a mild cold.

Cancelled our trip Next weekend to New Orleans because I'll be just coming off the 19 and it's frickin' dangerous to travel and go to NO at this time.

The friends we were going with are pissed we're canceling... no "hope you're feeling ok." nada

Our friendship has been changed. My kids will be wearing masks at school because our Governor is a fuckin' idiot.

sprry you have to deal with that shit esp when sick but glad you're taking care of yourself and your family. It's funny how these tourist traps seem even moreso now.

Feel better, Flasch.

So last year, we were killing people by not allowing them to have elective surgeries.

Now, we are preventing people from having elective surgery and that is a good thing?

So last year, we were killing people by not allowing them to have elective surgeries.

Now, we are preventing people from having elective surgery and that is a good thing?

The alternative is to ask conservatives to be slightly inconvenienced with masks.

Sorry to hear all the Flasch, hope you get better quick! I wouldn't want to go to someplace that's become a COVID hotbed either

Got Covid at a baseball tourney. Vaccinated so it's just a mild cold.

Cancelled our trip Next weekend to New Orleans because I'll be just coming off the 19 and it's frickin' dangerous to travel and go to NO at this time.

The friends we were going with are pissed we're canceling... no "hope you're feeling ok." nada

Our friendship has been changed. My kids will be wearing masks at school because our Governor is a fuckin' idiot.

That sucks. These are never fun situations to deal with :(

Just got a text from a (vaccinated) friend. We ran into her on Tuesday evening outdoors in our neighborhood. She hadn’t seen my 12yo daughter in person in over a year and they hugged. Her 12yo daughter ran up and hugged Carter as well. Then on Thursday, Carter and her daughter volunteered together at an outdoor event, and worked in fairly close proximity to one another for 2.5 hours, all outside.Saw the lady out walking her dog yesterday evening. We talked from across the street. She says they're still fine, just bored in whole-family quarantine. She still has just minor symptoms, and no one else in her family has any.

EDIT TO ADD: no symptoms or other indication so far that my daughter has been infected.

A good friend of mine is in a very popular east coast cover band, I’ve mentioned them before, called the Amish Outlaws. Their agent just sent a letter to the band saying if they aren’t all vaccinated they likely won’t be able to work as majority of venues will be requiring proof of vaccination in the very near future.

Wife's office said they went from 2-3 patients testing positive per week to 90 last week. Masks in their clinics have been required since the start and they're announcing today that they're requiring vaccinations for all staff. She expects at least a few people quitting.

So last year, we were killing people by not allowing them to have elective surgeries.

Now, we are preventing people from having elective surgery and that is a good thing?

I've been told in person, Skype, and on local Facebook a this common theory that Abbott "doesn't he realize that the masks mandates and the surgeries are related". Considering where we are with the decisions we're looking at making with our son, it's all I can do to keep from screaming at people: "OF COURSE HE DOES". He is completely aware and doing it anyway. He's done the cold, political calculus that he will get more votes for keeping masks option than he will for lose for costing lives. And, from what we've seen over the past year and change, he could be right.

Calling him stupid is giving him the benefit of Hanlon's razor that he doesn't deserve.

SI

Our county officials voted in a mask mandate for all indoor public spaces. That includes all retail. It goes into effect Friday at 5. Suffice it to say that the local FB/Nextdoor chatter is lighting up.

Suffice it to say that the local FB/Nextdoor chatter is lighting up.

WonderKarens Activate!

Looks like Cheryl &ldquo;Karen&rdquo; Byerly has heeded the call, Albion!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210810/52b7cd0c83a9d83a4f50fdea5c8c795b.jpg

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal. I mean I do (FoxNews, OANN, etc), but still. It's a fucking mask you put on max from the time you leave your car to time you return. And for others just barely from door to door.

These people act like they are being forced to go to Gitmo.

Great explanation for not getting vaccinated.

(It is a great movie though)

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-58164833
One of the writers of the sci-fi film I Am Legend has clarified its fictional nature amid rumours Covid-19 vaccines would turn people into zombies.

The 2007 film, starring Will Smith, is about a failed attempt to genetically re-engineer measles to cure cancer, killing 99% of the world's population.

Those who survive the infection turn into mutant vampiric creatures.

Claims that something similar would happen to people receiving Covid jabs have been circulating on social media.
:
Last week, the New York Times reported that the owner of an eyewear store in the Bronx, New York, was struggling to persuade some of its staff to get a Covid vaccine, with one citing the plot of I Am Legend as a concern.

"One employee said she was concerned because she thought a vaccine had caused the characters in the film I Am Legend to turn into zombies," the report said.

If the vaccine turns a few billion of us into zombies I think I'd rather be on the zombie side, rather than live in an aftertimes world with Cheryl.

The company I work for just announced that they want all employees to submit their vaccine cards along with the manufacturer and date(s) of administration. Employees that don't submit evidence of their vaccination will be subject to testing, required to wear a mask at all times while in the office and they will be banned from corporate travel. For new employees, vaccination will be a condition of employment. They aren't the first company to do it, and I imagine that this will be a trend.

The virus was bad enough initially and Delta has amped it up. I'm hoping it doesn't have to get worse before the resistance starts to wear down.

I have come across a couple people online claiming to have made appointments with fake info in order to get a 3rd shot.

There's plenty of people like that out there apparently

More than a million Americans have already cheated to get unauthorized vaccine boosters | TheHill (https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/567315-more-than-a-million-americans-have-already)

What is the -ism when you believe that people are fundamentally un-trustworthy?

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal. I mean I do (FoxNews, OANN, etc), but still. It's a fucking mask you put on max from the time you leave your car to time you return. And for others just barely from door to door.

These people act like they are being forced to go to Gitmo.

It is testament to the awe-inspiring power of propagandist communication techniques. Foreign actors have realized how easy it is to sock puppet a third of this country into chaos, and they do. Media companies have different motivations, but they get it too. And some politicians see a hallowed ground where they can be the one raising a fist and being a hero, especially when the ground has already been plowed for them.

The rubes, pawns, marks... I know it's trending to anchor your hate there, but it honestly belongs first with the people selling the snake oil, more than those buying it.

There's plenty of people like that out there apparently

More than a million Americans have already cheated to get unauthorized vaccine boosters | TheHill (https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/567315-more-than-a-million-americans-have-already)

Not regarding Boosters, but early on I heard reports that a whole lot of people got full courses of both Pfizer and Moderna. Some more industrious folks went all in for J & J as well.

I gathered that in the rush to make sure people had access, very few restrictions were put in place.

I believe the vaccine has, in fact, turned several million people into zombies.

You sure they weren't already?

SI

Looks like they'll be authorizing 3rd shots for folks like me who are immunocompromised...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/11/politics/fda-third-dose-covid-19-vaccine/index.html

What is the -ism when you believe that people are fundamentally un-trustworthy?

Realism?

*cackle*

Cynicism?

SI

What is the -ism when you believe that people are fundamentally un-trustworthy?

Conservatism

Rand Paul reveals wife bought stock in company behind remdesivir in late financial disclosure | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/11/politics/rand-paul-wife-stock-gilead-sciences)

It's between $1,000 and $15,000 worth of stock, so I can't imagine that this was really about the money for the Pauls. I assume that he's worth millions.

But, politically, it is a bad look to be the Senate's face of anti-vaccine and anti-mask sentiment and to then have a financial stake in COVID treatments.

I don't see why. You can be both anti-mandate and pro-treatment of the virus, and Paul isn't anti-vaccine. A total non-issue IMO, except for the timing. It should have been put out there a *long* time ago.

I don't see why. You can be both anti-mandate and pro-treatment of the virus, and Paul isn't anti-vaccine. A total non-issue IMO, except for the timing. It should have been put out there a *long* time ago.

I don't think that he was trying to get away with anything. The money involved is just too low for that.

It just looks horrible for him. It's the sort of easily (mis)understood thing that plays really well as an attack: "Paul is against masks because he's profiting off people getting sick"

It's unfair, but I'd certainly use it to attack him if I were on the other side.

I don't see why. You can be both anti-mandate and pro-treatment of the virus, and Paul isn't anti-vaccine. A total non-issue IMO, except for the timing. It should have been put out there a *long* time ago.

This right here is why Antivax is a thing in the first place. Not because of those diehard 5% but because of the "i'm not antivax, but ..." ("for natural immunity"/"for freedom"/"not for children"/"not so many at once" etc, etc) contingent as well as those that buy that as not being Antivax. Which it is, just cleverly packaged to make people think they really are merely making a rational choice.

Yes, yes, he's not out there ranting against it every time he opens his mouth and when he does, he narrows the 'scope' just enough to qualify as not against it per se. He's an oportunist trying to hedge his bets. He's about as pro-vaccine as Trump is. As in: He's not really, but willing to pretend he is in such a way that still leaves him viable for those that aren't.

Paul literally refuses to get vaccinated as a public figure. You think that isn't to make a statement ? Now he says it's because he had Covid19. Fine "but" there. Yet it is still recommended for those folks and multiple studies show a clear added benefit. And it is absolutely used (and he knows that) as a rational by people who merely think they had Covid.

He was associated with an organisation actively villifying not just these specific vaccines, but also blaming Autism on vaccinations, a believe he evidently shares (the association also meddles with many other fringe shit like claiming AIDS isn't caused by HIV or Abortions being linked to breast cancer)

Rand Paul's vaccine comments expose his greatest weakness as a presidential candidate - Vox (https://www.vox.com/2015/2/3/7966975/rand-paul-vaccine)

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/24/politics/rand-paul-vaccines-covid-19/index.html

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons)

(The "notable people" is a verified who is who of fringe positions, including some very popular-in-certain-circles re:Covid, including crossover to other organisations like Americas Frontline Doctors)

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/us/politics/rand-paul-linked-to-association-of-american-physicians-and-surgeons.html

Even worse, as a doctor his opinion is relied on by people who want an excuse not to get vaccinated. His repeated statements using portions of a couple of small studies that he misrepresented into having a certain meaning they didn't actually have is peak "smartest guy in the room" libertarianism BS.

Yes, yes, he's not out there ranting against it every time he opens his mouth and when he does, he narrows the 'scope' just enough to qualify as not against it per se. He's an oportunist trying to hedge his bets. He's about as pro-vaccine as Trump is. As in: He's not really, but willing to pretend he is in such a way that still leaves him viable for those that aren't.

Paul literally refuses to get vaccinated as a public figure. You think that isn't to make a statement ? Now he says it's because he had Covid19. Fine "but" there. Yet it is still recommended for those folks and multiple studies show a clear added benefit. And it is absolutely used (and he knows that) as a rational by people who merely think they had Covid.

I give every public figure the benefit of the doubt and base my criticism on what they say, not what they don't. If we assume Paul is lying about why he's not getting the vaccine, then we have no ground to stand on when others claim those who are getting are lying about why they are. Or that Biden is lying when he comments about Cuomo, or the infrastructure bill, or whatever. I think it's a basic element of fairness in civil discourse to address ourselves to what people *actually say*, not what we think they meant by it, or parsing it into 'code words' or 'signaling' or what-have-you. When he says it's a personal choice, and that what he's against is mandates not the vaccine itself, I have a responsibility to actually engage with that and not assume he means something else.

People can make a rational choice against/for anything. Yes, *anything*. The statements he's made about autism and vaccines should definitely be criticized etc., but this idea that nobody's allowed to have a rational position in that area, against vaccine/mask/etc. mandates does, has, and will continue to get a hard no from me. We don't get to tell people that their ideas are too crackpot to be articulated. When did it become unacceptable to just be wrong?

I give every public figure the benefit of the doubt and base my criticism on what they say, not what they don't. If we assume Paul is lying about why he's not getting the vaccine, then we have no ground to stand on when others claim those who are getting are lying about why they are. Or that Biden is lying when he comments about Cuomo, or the infrastructure bill, or whatever. I think it's a basic element of fairness in civil discourse to address ourselves to what people *actually say*, not what we think they meant by it, or parsing it into 'code words' or 'signaling' or what-have-you. When he says it's a personal choice, and that what he's against is mandates not the vaccine itself, I have a responsibility to actually engage with that and not assume he means something else.

I agree that we should take statements at face value and try not to infer what might not be there. Otherwise it's too easy to talk past each other or create strawmen.

When did it become unacceptable to just be wrong?

I should've asked my teacher this the last time I failed a math test.

Yeah, I mean politicians, specifically, have no interest in lying or trying to create a place where they can be all things to all people to try and maximize votes. And we definitely shouldn't try to infer the meaning of their actions or true intent. They never talk out of both side of their mouth and should not be held accountable for it, even if those words or actions could cost lives.

SI

No one (to my knowledge) is saying that the government should ban Paul or others from speaking. No one (to my knowledge) is suggesting that he be jailed or otherwise punished for speaking.

Many people are simply not letting him get away with saying wrong bullshit and are calling him out on it.

Despite what the "OMG Cancel Culture!" folks would have you believe, having free speech does not mean that you should be immune from criticism.

Nobody is saying Paul's speech should be banned. Conversely, to SI's point, nobody's saying it shouldn't be criticized either.

What some people *are* saying is that we can judge the motives of one side of a debate, and that side only, based on things they didn't actually say. That we can assume he's not getting vaccinated to make a political statement, but it's not a problem at all if others *do* get vaccinated to make a political statement. That we can assume nefarious motives for the other side of the debate, but that it's unfair to do so if it's something 'our' side says.

That's what I object to. Anybody who so much as posts on this forum, much less is a public figure like a Senator, definitely ought to have what they say examined and criticized. That's what debate is for.

So we're required to believe that voting suppression efforts are about voting security?

Nah, that's stupid. Taking what they say at face value about vaccines and COVID is also stupid.

I agree that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, but that ends at some point when the person proves they are not sincere. That point was long ago passed by Rand Paul. What people have said and done in the past should clearly be factored into whether or not their current statements are truthful.

So we're required to believe that voting suppression efforts are about voting security?

You're not required to believe anything about the why. Leaving the why entirely to the side and engaging with what people actually say is what I'm advocating for.

Otherwhise we just end up in a situation where each side ... sides differing somewhat depending on the issue ... assume the other side is debating in bad faith because they don't trust them. I.e. so-and-so is against mask mandates to own the libs, Biden's spending bills are about turning the US into a socialist utopia rather than making necessary investments in the future, etc. It's easy to say 'we' don't trust Rand Paul, but 'they' don't trust Biden/Democrats and they think they have good reasons for doing so.

The only way out is to not assume we know what's beneath the surface.

Paul is absolutely anti-vax and has been for many years. He has also supported the proliferation of the virus.

I agree with albion that I doubt his stock picks motivated his pro-COVID stance, but I do think there is a political motivation behind it. And him being really dumb.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">THESE PEOPLE ARE BAD AT RESEARCH <a href="https://t.co/lt8Tpvkkiy">https://t.co/lt8Tpvkkiy</a></p>&mdash; Alex Edelman (@AlexEdelman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlexEdelman/status/1425881513271316481?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

One of our town councilmen, a GOPer, posted an update from the county board of health and boy, did it bring out the crazies.

Actually new report is it was the first time Paul had traded an individual stock in 10 years so definitely some insider trading.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/12/rand-pauls-wife-bought-shares-in-covid-treatment-maker-gilead-as-virus-spread.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.PostToTwitter&__twitter_impression=true

Proof of COVID-19 vaccination or negative test result required to attend New Orleans Saints games (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32010920/proof-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test-result-required-attend-new-orleans-saints-games)

Good on the Saints. You want to enjoy things like a football game…go get vaccinated

The U.S. Supreme Court will not block Indiana University's vaccine mandate. Justice Amy Coney Barrett rejected the plea without even asking the university for a response or getting her colleagues to weigh in. Justices often act on their own in such situations when the legal question isn't particularly close. Barrett handles emergency matters from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which includes Indiana.

Supreme Court Won't Block Indiana University's Vaccine Mandate (https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/supreme-court-justice-wont-block-college-vaccine-mandate/3219178/)

The U.S. Supreme Court will not block Indiana University's vaccine mandate. Justice Amy Coney Barrett rejected the plea without even asking the university for a response or getting her colleagues to weigh in. Justices often act on their own in such situations when the legal question isn't particularly close. Barrett handles emergency matters from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which includes Indiana.

Supreme Court Won't Block Indiana University's Vaccine Mandate (https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/politics/supreme-court-justice-wont-block-college-vaccine-mandate/3219178/)

As a guy who just returned to campus full-time after my 18-month Pandemic StayCation, and a guy whose job duties include producing detailed immunization compliance stats, I'm glad that the Supreme Court agrees that these students in particular can go fuck themselves.

But I feel that way about everybody who creates unnecessary work for me when I've got more important things to do.

So we're required to believe that voting suppression efforts are about voting security?

Nah, that's stupid. Taking what they say at face value about vaccines and COVID is also stupid.

I agree that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, but that ends at some point when the person proves they are not sincere. That point was long ago passed by Rand Paul. What people have said and done in the past should clearly be factored into whether or not their current statements are truthful.

I would be willing to take what they said at face value if they hadn't burned those trust bridges and shown many times over. They have shown that they are not interested in the betterment of society in general. Being wrong was frowned upon starting in first grade, and that's a standard that we teach our kids from early on. To believe otherwise is to normalize low education standards. If we know it's wrong, it's wrong, and we strive to be right

Paul is absolutely anti-vax and has been for many years. He has also supported the proliferation of the virus.

I agree with albion that I doubt his stock picks motivated his pro-COVID stance, but I do think there is a political motivation behind it. And him being really dumb.

Paul never had to eat his words on his fearmongering over Ebola either. He was out there ramping up the transmissibility of it and stroking fears over the dangers that the greater US was in mostly to troll Obama.

He also added this gem in 2014{ Paul expressed concern about the lack of security at the border, saying an insecure “border is not only a danger for national security purposes, it is also a danger for a world-wide pandemic should it occur.” }, yet when we had an actual pandemic with a president who was hyper focused on the border he decided to focus on the people who were trying to contain, and he supported the guy who thought we could solve it with bleach and light.

They have shown that they are not interested in the betterment of society in general. Being wrong was frowned upon starting in first grade, and that's a standard that we teach our kids from early on. To believe otherwise is to normalize low education standards. If we know it's wrong, it's wrong, and we strive to be right

You can't know someone isn't interested in the betterment of society. There's no way to determine, without being that person, whether or not they take a position because they are simply wrong or because they take it for ulterior motives.

I'm 100% with you on education and correcting wrong assessments, but that's a completely different matter from concluding what someone's motivations are. In every field of study there are highly educated, trained, and dedicated people who come to impressively wrong conclusions - because we are all biased as human beings and aren't robots.

At some point, when a person continues down the same wrong paths again and again, it is fair to ascribe to them the worst of motives. Because if they cared about being wrong and challenging their beliefs and assumptions, they would do something different.

Unless, of course, his actions have showed us again and again what his true motives likey are. But, of course, we can't know it a complete 100%. What are you even arguing again, Brian? That Paul has repeatedly shown he's a craven political weasel, but we can't prove for certain he's not taking the vaccine for political purposes? That's he may be an... "a-hole but he's not, and I quote, '100% a dick'"? I can't even figure out what hair you are trying to split here.

SI

Would like to add that a lot of the Vaccine hesitancy is fomented by Russian social media farms. Lemmings aren't excused and apparently, there's a group of people who seem to more easily be led down the conspiracy rabbit holes...but naw.... it's all a lie and it's an even split because "Who are you gonna believe data or your lyin' eyes?"

At some point, when a person continues down the same wrong paths again and again, it is fair to ascribe to them the worst of motives. Because if they cared about being wrong and challenging their beliefs and assumptions, they would do something different.

This, it's not a clean slate each and every day. Eventually, you can see a pattern unless of course, you don't want to.

This kind of crap is why mandates are a must. Similar to last year when my daughter would come home from school and say she found out someone was likely positive but she had to keep it quiet because if it gets out, sports will be shut down for 2 weeks and she doesn't want to be blamed and take the heat for it at school.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Oh wow. More than 80 students were potentially exposed to COVID-19 on the first day of class in Reno, NV, on Monday after a parent sent their child to attend school, despite both the parent and child receiving a positive COVID test just 2 days earlier. <a href="https://t.co/8EpPnJ1mKd">https://t.co/8EpPnJ1mKd</a></p>&mdash; Caroline Orr Bueno, Ph.D (@RVAwonk) <a href="https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1426149829978345475?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 13, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I saw a school district in MS, without a vaccine or mask mandate, now has over 400 students in quarantine after only a week.

This kind of crap is why mandates are a must. Similar to last year when my daughter would come home from school and say she found out someone was likely positive but she had to keep it quiet because if it gets out, sports will be shut down for 2 weeks and she doesn't want to be blamed and take the heat for it at school.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Oh wow. More than 80 students were potentially exposed to COVID-19 on the first day of class in Reno, NV, on Monday after a parent sent their child to attend school, despite both the parent and child receiving a positive COVID test just 2 days earlier. <a href="https://t.co/8EpPnJ1mKd">https://t.co/8EpPnJ1mKd</a></p>&mdash; Caroline Orr Bueno, Ph.D (@RVAwonk) <a href="https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1426149829978345475?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 13, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I hear that disclosing such information is a personal decision.

Ware County closes all 11 schools after ‘sharp increase’ in COVID-19 cases (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/08/13/ware-county-closes-all-schools-after-sharp-increase-in-covid-19-cases/)

Is DeSantis'es political window closing along with this covid wave? Any kind of long term political predictions seem like a fool's game these days, but he seemed like a legit GOP front-runner just a couple months ago, yet has slipped so far so fast he seems just as likely to get tossed out with yesterday's trash or sacrificed as some kind of scapegoat as he is to move up in the presidential power rankings.

I'm still sticking with my original statement that whoever emerges, if not Trump, will be someone that isn't an obvious choice right now.

I hear that disclosing such information is a personal decision.

I believe it's a HIPPA violation.

I'm still sticking with my original statement that whoever emerges, if not Trump, will be someone that isn't an obvious choice right now.


That seems like a pretty good assumption. In this environment it seems like publicly chasing Trump's affections and/or getting your name in the news for any kind of Covid response is high risk/low reward. I have a friend who insists Paul Ryan has been actively playing the long, quiet game.

If (when?) the tide turns on Trumpism, the only thing that will bring people who have abandoned the party back into the fold is someone who can't be directly tied to supporting Trump and all of the "stop the steal" nonsense. I just don't know if that happens by 2023 when you've got to announce your intentions. If Paul Ryan is playing the long game, 2028 or 2032 may be the target.

Paul Ryan has a tough job overcoming his years of statements about cutting Social Security and Medicare. One thing I'll give Trump, he realized that shit was toxic to voters.

Is DeSantis'es political window closing along with this covid wave? Any kind of long term political predictions seem like a fool's game these days, but he seemed like a legit GOP front-runner just a couple months ago, yet has slipped so far so fast he seems just as likely to get tossed out with yesterday's trash or sacrificed as some kind of scapegoat as he is to move up in the presidential power rankings.

I know this isn't supposed to be a political COVID thread, but this is some funny stuff from The New Yorker:

DeSantis Losing Support Among Voters Opposed to Dying (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/desantis-losing-support-among-voters-opposed-to-dying)

In a potentially ominous development for the Florida governor, a new poll shows Ron DeSantis hemorrhaging support among voters who identify as opposed to dying.

According to the poll, DeSantis’s favorability numbers are plummeting among Floridians who describe themselves as “somewhat,” “very,” or “strongly” opposed to being dead.

Asked to name the issue most important to them, an overwhelming majority of anti-dying voters cited “continuing to exist,” with the economy and immigration placing a distant second and third.

Harland Dorrinson, an aide to the Governor, dismissed the poll numbers as “a distraction” and said that “this obsession with not dying is the kind of political correctness the people of Florida are tired of.”

“Governor DeSantis has had a very strong pro-dying message, and that’s not going to change,” the aide said.

I know this isn't supposed to be a political COVID thread, but this is some funny stuff from The New Yorker:

DeSantis Losing Support Among Voters Opposed to Dying (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/desantis-losing-support-among-voters-opposed-to-dying)

In a potentially ominous development for the Florida governor, a new poll shows Ron DeSantis hemorrhaging support among voters who identify as opposed to dying.

According to the poll, DeSantis’s favorability numbers are plummeting among Floridians who describe themselves as “somewhat,” “very,” or “strongly” opposed to being dead.

Asked to name the issue most important to them, an overwhelming majority of anti-dying voters cited “continuing to exist,” with the economy and immigration placing a distant second and third.

Harland Dorrinson, an aide to the Governor, dismissed the poll numbers as “a distraction” and said that “this obsession with not dying is the kind of political correctness the people of Florida are tired of.”

“Governor DeSantis has had a very strong pro-dying message, and that’s not going to change,” the aide said.

That is hilarious.

I'm still sticking with my original statement that whoever emerges, if not Trump, will be someone that isn't an obvious choice right now.

Satan for 2024!

Satan for 2024!

Pat Robertson with Satan's hand stuck up Pat's ass like a puppet as a runningmate?

Checked worldometers. Even with the recent increase of infections, deaths are still well under 1000 (for now).

Was interested to see how it compares to the "flu". At the current run of approx 700 deaths, still well above the flu.

While the impact of flu varies, it places a substantial burden on the health of people in the United States each year. CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010.

I believe it's a HIPPA violation.

I see what you did there :cool:

SI

I thought we were at the point in the pandemic where we all pretty much know deaths are a trailing indicator (and that having a 50ish% vaccinated population will drastically cut down on deaths).

SI

I love on FB how some of my Realtor cohorts claim to need more information while at the same time sowing misinformation and lack of trust in science. They also fail to be able to see how they consistently fall in line to the talking points that the Right wing conspiracy gang feeds them through OAN and Newsmax and Parler all the while all of the money and everything is tested back to Russia and foreign entities that are watching and loving how the Christian Conservative Right Wing idealogues have fallen hook line and sinker. It's actually fuckin' incredible and if this isn't some sort of alien social experiemtn on us in a test tube what else could it be. Are people really this stupid? Perhaps we don't deserve freedom if this is what happens to a huge subsection of the populace. I mean a dude just killed his kids over it and he isn't the first nor will be the last idiot.

What are you even arguing again, Brian? That Paul has repeatedly shown he's a craven political weasel, but we can't prove for certain he's not taking the vaccine for political purposes? That's he may be an... "a-hole but he's not, and I quote, '100% a dick'"? I can't even figure out what hair you are trying to split here.

I'm not sure how I managed to be unclear. I'm not trying to split any hair; my point is much larger than Paul. I'm simply saying that you can't know someone's motivations, full stop.

** As an aside, modern neurological science is backing up what some philsophical and religious traditions have taught for millenia, namely that it goes much farther even than other people's motivations. That is, humans can't reliably assess their *own* motivations for actions, much less what someone else whose thoughts we aren't privy to might be.

when a person continues down the same wrong paths again and again, it is fair to ascribe to them the worst of motives. Because if they cared about being wrong and challenging their beliefs and assumptions, they would do something different.

Let's consider the implications of this. Someone can't be consistently wrong while still trying to be right? That flies in the face of human experience. Even in modern times, we have plenty of examples of intelligent, successful, and otherwhise well-adjusted people, wanting to be convinced otherwhise but compelled by what they know of the available evidence that the Earth is flat. Including people who once found that idea as ludicrous as presumably all of us on this forum do.

I think there's a great underestimating of the level of bias that all of us as humans have going on here. History is strewn with examples of people who dedicated themselves to finding the truth of a subject and were wrong about their whole lives despite this goal, even with better information readily available to them. And as mentioned, it also exposes 'our' side to accusations of hypocrisy/bad faith every time 'they' find an issue where we are consistently pounding a note they think is obviously wrong.

I love on FB how some of my Realtor cohorts claim to need more information while at the same time sowing misinformation and lack of trust in science. They also fail to be able to see how they consistently fall in line to the talking points that the Right wing conspiracy gang feeds them through OAN and Newsmax and Parler all the while all of the money and everything is tested back to Russia and foreign entities that are watching and loving how the Christian Conservative Right Wing idealogues have fallen hook line and sinker. It's actually fuckin' incredible and if this isn't some sort of alien social experiemtn on us in a test tube what else could it be. Are people really this stupid? Perhaps we don't deserve freedom if this is what happens to a huge subsection of the populace. I mean a dude just killed his kids over it and he isn't the first nor will be the last idiot.



what? realtors?

I'm not sure how I managed to be unclear. I'm not trying to split any hair; my point is much larger than Paul. I'm simply saying that you can't know someone's motivations, full stop.

.

Sometimes it really is as simple as when someone shows you who they are believe them.

Absolutely. That can tell you a lot about of what people do, which is visible for everyone to see. It can't tell you about their motivations, i.e. true reasons for doing it. That's the difference.

what? realtors?

I'm in the industry so my FB group via my networking has a bunch in my FB "Friends".

Absolutely. That can tell you a lot about of what people do, which is visible for everyone to see. It can't tell you about their motivations, i.e. true reasons for doing it. That's the difference.

Except when they're literally caught on camera lying about it. Ie. Trump, et al. With that I find it rich that some then want to give the subject a 'benefit of the doubt' that their words are representative of their motivations at face value.

It's kind of like statistics. You can draw the conclusions from the statistics or start parsing, spinning and doubting the validity of the statistic but the facts are the facts no matter how twisted in a pretzel you are.

I'm not sure how I managed to be unclear. I'm not trying to split any hair; my point is much larger than Paul. I'm simply saying that you can't know someone's motivations, full stop.

** As an aside, modern neurological science is backing up what some philsophical and religious traditions have taught for millenia, namely that it goes much farther even than other people's motivations. That is, humans can't reliably assess their *own* motivations for actions, much less what someone else whose thoughts we aren't privy to might be.

No, I mean you made those comments seemingly (?) to refute whomario calling Paul anti-vax after he listed some things Paul has said and done things to undermine vaccines. So what specific point are you trying to make about Rand Paul?

SI

I mean you made those comments seemingly (?) to refute whomario calling Paul anti-vax after he listed some things Paul has said and done things to undermine vaccines. So what specific point are you trying to make about Rand Paul?

It was the same point. whomario made statements assigning various motivations to Rand Paul, I said his statements should be taken at face value and we shouldn't assume he meant something else by them. People objected to that, and here we are a page later :).

Let's consider the implications of this. Someone can't be consistently wrong while still trying to be right? That flies in the face of human experience. Even in modern times, we have plenty of examples of intelligent, successful, and otherwhise well-adjusted people, wanting to be convinced otherwhise but compelled by what they know of the available evidence that the Earth is flat. Including people who once found that idea as ludicrous as presumably all of us on this forum do.

I think there's a great underestimating of the level of bias that all of us as humans have going on here. History is strewn with examples of people who dedicated themselves to finding the truth of a subject and were wrong about their whole lives despite this goal, even with better information readily available to them. And as mentioned, it also exposes 'our' side to accusations of hypocrisy/bad faith every time 'they' find an issue where we are consistently pounding a note they think is obviously wrong.

The catch is that they are then fools if they are consistently wrong despite "better information being readily available to them." So you choose... bad actor or fool? Either way, a person that has shown this level of incompetence or bad faith should have no role in running the country. Or my county, for that matter.

We are all fools in that sense. There's some of this in all of us.

Again same crap of equivalency, excuses, and statistic ignorance/manipulation

It&rsquo;s unbelievable

They literally catch people on camera or on audio telling you their true motivations yet you say take them at the word that they said and ignore the hot mic? The hot mic is the truth&hellip; what they said when they thought they could curate was the farce.

Same with statistics&hellip; I&rsquo;m sure this lady is a lefty lib

https://twitter.com/jerrijamz/status/1426052914255106049?s=21

BS for BS


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Again same crap of equivalency, excuses, and statistic ignorance/manipulation

It’s unbelievable

They literally catch people on camera or on audio telling you their true motivations yet you say take them at the word that they said and ignore the hot mic?

Feel free to stop lying about me at any point. It would make for better discussions.

I never said ignore the hot mic. At no point have I stated, implied, or otherwhise indicated we should ignore what people say. I'm also not making excuses for anyone or manipulating anything. You're shadowboxing something here that just plain isn't happening.

I fail to see the point of your link, I've never posted anything supporting the 'plandemic' POV and it has nothing to do with anything I've been talking about.

Riiiiiiigggghhhtt


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The reason it goes on for pages is because you have said and inferred exactly those things that you say you didn&rsquo;t!!

Multiple people for pages have called you out for the exact same stuff so at some point you have to realize there are 4 fingers pointed back at yourself.

Or don&rsquo;t, it doesn&rsquo;t matter but your credibility was set to fire when you argued the anti vax stats stuff and under withering statistics continued to argue the trash POV you&rsquo;re stuck with as to why people on whole, en masse, are anti vaccine


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The reason it goes on for pages is because you have said and inferred exactly those things that you say you didn’t!!

If so, it should be easy for you to cite a specific example. Feel free to do so. That's what debates are for. If I've done so, I'll clarify or retract as the need be what I said.

your credibility was set to fire when you argued the anti vax stats stuff and under withering statistics continued to argue the trash POV you’re stuck with as to why people on whole, en masse, are anti vaccine

And yet another lie. This is not what happened. What happened was, I thought different statistics were more relevant than what you and others did, and said so. I also said why, and gave basic logical explanations of why the stats you were citing didn't demonstrate what you said and were being misused. I can't control others opinions of my credibility, but I can say as I did then that I stand by the tenor of my comments in that discussion, and I'm confident that any reputable instructor in basic statistics would agree with me on the way the cited stats were being distorted and did not at all represent what was being claimed.

It's too bad this wasn't entirely predictable.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">JUST IN: Hillsborough County Public School Board will hold an emergency meeting Wednesday after 5,599 students and 316 staff have entered quarantine for COVID. The Tampa-area district, seventh largest in the U.S., has only been in school four days.</p>&mdash; Travis Akers (@travisakers) <a href="https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1427377370273665027?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 16, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Jay Cutler is going to run for school board to fight these mask fascists. It's always the ones you kind of expect.

I&rsquo;m sure the Tampa students and faculty are just lying


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It's covid season in Florida, it's completely normal for people to catch a little sniffle!

My son tried out for a travel baseball team in Tampa on August 7th.

We found out he made the team on August 8th.

My wife contacted the team yesterday August 15th because we have not heard anything from them since he made the team. No reply to her email.

Today, August 16th, we found out that three of the coaches have contracted COVID with two including the head coach for his age group currently in ICU.

On a completely insignificant but related note, the team's entire travel ball program for all age groups have been suspended for the fall season.

My son tried out for a travel baseball team in Tampa on August 7th.

We found out he made the team on August 8th.

My wife contacted the team yesterday August 15th because we have not heard anything from them since he made the team. No reply to her email.

Today, August 16th, we found out that three of the coaches have contracted COVID with two including the head coach for his age group currently in ICU.

On a completely insignificant but related note, the team's entire travel ball program for all age groups have been suspended for the fall season.

Maybe remdesivir can sponsor the team?

On a completely insignificant but related note, the team's entire travel ball program for all age groups have been suspended for the fall season.

Or until Desantis signs and executive order banning the shutdown of youth sports.

Jay Cutler is going to run for school board to fight these mask fascists. It's always the ones you kind of expect.

I'd say too many hits to the head but I think most people questioned his decision making from day 1

SI

Thinking about getting a vaccination passport. I can see myself traveling to other countries next year. I did some googling but there doesn't seem to be a centralized way of getting one (don't think Fed/States are mandating it so the solutions are hodge-podge).

I got my vaccinations from Publix and nothing on their site. Didn't see anything on CVS either.

Has anyone gotten a vaccination passport? If so, how?

My wife is friends with the head of pulmonology at the largest hospital system in SC. They're out of vents and ICU beds in the region. They're telling new patients to come back in a few days when they're worse because they have nothing to treat them with. Most patients are on their 30-40s with a few as young as 18. They don't expect most of them to make it.

Booster shots coming for everyone.

I'm not sure I like the idea. I have to do more research but can you get too much of the vaccine? I won't be first in line but prob wait 2-3 months (unless all hell is breaking loose with Lambda or whatever).

e.g. Does booster shots need to go through same rigor as the first set of vaccinations for adverse/side effects? I don't remember reading about a robust study on additional booster shots.

The Biden administration is set to announce that most vaccinated Americans should get a COVID-19 booster shot eight months after being fully vaccinated, the New York Times reported Monday night.

An official announcement is expected later the week, the Times said, and the first booster could be administered to nursing-home residents and health-care workers as soon as mid-September.

The Associated Press later confirmed the report, adding that the boosters would be administered only after the Food and Drug Administration formally approves the vaccines, a move expected in the coming weeks.

I find it odd that anyone is surprised by the booster shot. I was expecting this to be like the annual flu shot before they had ever developed a specific vaccination.

I find it odd that anyone is surprised by the booster shot. I was expecting this to be like the annual flu shot before they had ever developed a specific vaccination.

Me either, I'm guessing most of us here get a flu shot every season, not sure how a booster for COVID is any different

I am frustrated by the fact that the administration has apparently been working overtime to get the FDA to get off its ass and get boosters approved but appears content to let the < 12 EUA remain a back burner issue.

I am frustrated by the fact that the administration has apparently been working overtime to get the FDA to get off its ass and get boosters approved but appears content to let the < 12 EUA remain a back burner issue.

Yeah, I don't get this flurry of news around booster shots. You want to stop this virus quicker? Get vaccines in kids' arms before school or as soon as possible.

SI

New Zealand doesn't mess around:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/new-zealand-lockdown-one-case-intl-hnk/index.html

My daughter's bday is next month and started school this week. We're tempted to just say she's 12 to get her started. I dunno, maybe there's something in the microchip that keeps it from working if the person's blood is a day less than 12.

I wonder if the slow FDA approval for under 12 is a political one. It's one thing if a bunch of science denying dopes in red states don't get vaccinated. It is a very bad look if vaccinations in kids under 12 lag in blue states, which I suspect they would.

I wonder if the slow FDA approval for under 12 is a political one. It's one thing if a bunch of science denying dopes in red states don't get vaccinated. It is a very bad look if vaccinations in kids under 12 lag in blue states, which I suspect they would.

If that's the calculus, it is a bad one.

Right now, the anger is at the anti-vaxxers.

But the anger will switch to the administration as kids start dying and their parents give tearful interviews about they would have given them the vaccine if only they had been allowed to.

If they approve it and after a few months we are looking at a 35% vaccination rate in kids (this is an arbitrary number) it is going to make the admin look equally as bad if not worse.

If they approve it and after a few months we are looking at a 35% vaccination rate in kids (this is an arbitrary number) it is going to make the admin look equally as bad if not worse.

Why?

It will be a 24-7 cycle of "even blue state parents don't trust the vaccinne for their kids"

"Biden vaccine roll out for kids is an epic failure"

It will turn the narrative from anti vaxers and bad policies in red states killing kids to a failure in Bidens vaccine rollout killing kids.

I think we just agree to disagree. I think that giving parents the choice will be seen as an overall good. If some parents (which will certainly be the case) choose not to do it, I don't know if that will come back on the administration.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Axios/Ipsos poll: Overall 69% of Americans support mandatory masking in school, with 44% of Republicans and 92% of Democrats supporting.<br><br>This is definitely another one of those 'Twitter isn't real life' data points. <a href="https://t.co/moEMN1Ekch">pic.twitter.com/moEMN1Ekch</a></p>&mdash; Josh Jordan (@NumbersMuncher) <a href="https://twitter.com/NumbersMuncher/status/1427610103620984834?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 17, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

dola: The LOUD minority in this country makes it easy to forget just how out of step they are.

44% of Republicans support mandatory masking in schools.

But they aren't going to school board meetings with assault rifles and misspelled handmade Don't Tread on Me signs, so they don't get the attention.

At what point does the "oh but we are just being rational" trope unravel ? Yes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E87oIf_XMAcrQqj?format=jpg&name=medium

At least some variety to ye olde Nazi comparisons.

One of the spearheads of this crowd, key figur for the Great Barrington dump as well as advisong deSantis. And oh, a Harvard Professor. No wonder he deleted it later. Also no wonder he did it without comment (after even 80% of his deranged following called him out), much less apology.

https://www.reddit.com/r/southcarolina/comments/p64ocu/this_is_from_the_guy_that_got_way_too_many_votes/

So Lin Wood is the crazy "election was stolen" guy. He also got a not insignificant amount of votes to be the head of the SC GOP.

Presley Stutts recently organized a hostile takeover of the Greenville GOP and has been in the hospital with COVID.

These people don't deserve to live and it's borderline criminal that doctors have to waste time and resources trying to keep them alive. The doctors at these hospitals are working every day, 18 hour days with no breaks keeping these deplorable, ungrateful pieces of shit alive. The world would be better of without them and we could see the light at the end of this hellscape if they would just slither into a corner and die.

But both sides or something.

Washington opened up booster shoots for the immunocompromised this week and expect to open it up quickly to other groups.

Would I be the ass hole if I told my sister that living where she does has rotted her brain? She was always considered the smart one of the family but she married a conservative and lives in a super conservative area. Didn’t get the vaccine, now her whole family has Covid. To top it off, they came down with it while visiting bro in law’s super high risk mother.

My parents are too nice to say it, but my inclination is to call her a fucking moron.

no, just expect to be cut off. these people are brainwashed and in a cult

no, just expect to be cut off. these people are brainwashed and in a cult

I don’t think they would cut me off. She sent me a picture from some local event where she got to meet that nut job ex-Sheriff David Clarke. I jokingly asked her if MyPillow guy was there, and he actually was. So I told her that her and all the people at this event should be thrown in an asylum.

I consider her husband to be the real nutty one politically but he tries to act all moderate in person. Then he gets on Facebook (I unfollowed him long ago) and removes all doubt that he’s in the Qult.

I&rsquo;m sure someone on the board will find some way to argue that that statistic/poll doesn&rsquo;t reflect reality


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Governor Abbott of Texas +

Seemed like a really fun event last night, saw one elderly man in a wheelchair, many more out dancing and having a lovely time. I sincerely hope they don't die, as that just had the absolute feel of a "superspreader" event, even before this unshocking news.

Would I be the ass hole if I told my sister that living where she does has rotted her brain? She was always considered the smart one of the family but she married a conservative and lives in a super conservative area. Didn’t get the vaccine, now her whole family has Covid. To top it off, they came down with it while visiting bro in law’s super high risk mother.

My parents are too nice to say it, but my inclination is to call her a fucking moron.

No, not if they are putting your family at risk.

Would I be the ass hole if I told my sister that living where she does has rotted her brain?

You know your sister better than anyone on this board I'm sure. I'd express your concerns in the way you think most likely to get through.

For most people, calling them a moron would be counterproductive. From your description only, not knowing the people involved beyond what you've said, I would also call it inaccurate. The most likely conclusion I can draw from the limited information available is that she assessed the situation and made a different life choice, choosing to accept a risk that most people would not choose to accept.

I wonder if the slow FDA approval for under 12 is a political one. It's one thing if a bunch of science denying dopes in red states don't get vaccinated. It is a very bad look if vaccinations in kids under 12 lag in blue states, which I suspect they would.

My guess, with nothing other than experience with those with authority over children to back it up, is it has to do with covering their behinds. I.e. if you're going to approve something to inject kids with you'd better be *darned* sure there aren't significant rates of serious side effects that you didn't know about and/or in any way understated at approval time.

You know your sister better than anyone on this board I'm sure. I'd express your concerns in the way you think most likely to get through.

For most people, calling them a moron would be counterproductive. From your description only, not knowing the people involved beyond what you've said, I would also call it inaccurate. The most likely conclusion I can draw from the limited information available is that she assessed the situation and made a different life choice, choosing to accept a risk that most people would not choose to accept.

She's choosing to accept a risk for her AND everyone she comes into contact with. This is not just some choice she's making in a vacuum that doesn't impact anyone else. This isn't someone smoking weed in their home. This is having a few drinks and driving home tipsy. Just a different life choice, really?

We're choosing to accept a risk for everyone else every time we get into a car and drive, every time we go anywhere and do anything, as I've given multiple examples of previously we accept some risk as part of the way we've decided to orient our society, what we accept and what we don't. Some of those have far greater impact that not getting a vaccine.

So yes, it's just a different life choice.

Come on. Driving and anti-vax aren't remotely comparable.

In degree of risk, no they aren't. In there being an element of risk to others involved, yes they are. As I've said though, there are other factors - the average person's contribution to climate change, average person's purchases of goods produced under dangerous, sweatshop-type conditions, etc - which have a far greater impact than someone not getting a vaccine. It's one of those situations where we choose to care about some of those things, and choose not to care about others. There are levels of harm to others that we are simply willing to accept to have the lifestyle we want as a society.

If you could take a shot to drastically reduce your odds, and the odds of those around you, from dying in a car accident, you'd be a selfish moron not to take it.

You could apply that thinking to any number of useful but potential dangerous activities.

In degree of risk, no they aren't. In there being an element of risk to others involved, yes they are. As I've said though, there are other factors - the average person's contribution to climate change, average person's purchases of goods produced under dangerous, sweatshop-type conditions, etc - which have a far greater impact than someone not getting a vaccine. It's one of those situations where we choose to care about some of those things, and choose not to care about others. There are levels of harm to others that we are simply willing to accept to have the lifestyle we want as a society.

You continue to use those analogies and they are terrible. One person's contribution to global warming or sweatshops is infinitesimally smaller than the risk of spreading this particular communicable virus. It's not even remotely comparable. Those are "levels of harm to others" that only exist because we as a collective global community contribute to it happening. But one unvaxxed person with Covid can easily impact a number of people.

Let's put aside driving. How about a man with HIV having unprotected sex with a woman? Not a guarantee of transmission by any stretch (CDC says 8 out of 10K). Just a "different life choice" to go around having one night stands? It's a free country and I can decide what risk I'm willing to take with other people's lives, right?

If you could take a shot to drastically reduce your odds, and the odds of those around you, from dying in a car accident, you'd be a selfish moron not to take it.

You could apply that thinking to any number of useful but potential dangerous activities.

I would also take a free shot to stop climate change.

One person's contribution to global warming or sweatshops is infinitesimally smaller than the risk of spreading this particular communicable virus. It's not even remotely comparable.

No it's not, it's far worse. Almost everyone who contracts COVID does not die. The current US fatality rate is less than 2%.

We're choosing to accept a risk for everyone else every time we get into a car and drive, every time we go anywhere and do anything, as I've given multiple examples of previously we accept some risk as part of the way we've decided to orient our society, what we accept and what we don't. Some of those have far greater impact that not getting a vaccine.

So yes, it's just a different life choice.

If you're going to compare it to driving, compare it to drinking and driving, because it's not just you that you're putting at risk.

Its simply a stylized version of &ldquo;both sides&rdquo;. That&rsquo;s all

He knows what he&rsquo;s doing.


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How about a man with HIV having unprotected sex with a woman? Not a guarantee of transmission by any stretch (CDC says 8 out of 10K). Just a "different life choice" to go around having one night stands? It's a free country and I can decide what risk I'm willing to take with other people's lives, right?

I'm assuming that we're still talking about the moral element and not the free country/rights element that's tangential to it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would fully agree with you that somebody who is unvaccinated results in a much greater risk that the person who has the one-night stands you describe. I also think this is in some respects a more direct analogy than the others we've been discussing, though there's also a very large difference between an overt act such as this compared to refusing a medical procedure. Ultimately however, as a society we accept levels of risk resulting from people's behavior in some ways, and we don't accept it in others. That often has little to do with the probability that someone will be negatively impacted and/or the severity of that impact. There's no line you can draw and say that we behave consistently, in the realm of law or the realism of social norms and morals, in deference to a principle of 'above this risk level isn't tolerated, below it is ok'.

We choose some things to care about, and others not to. Degree of risk is only one factor, how attached we are to something, willingness to give it up, tradition, etc., all of these are involved. One possible way forward as a society would be to form such a line - but that would involve a very different society than the one we have.

Its simply a stylized version of “both sides”. That’s all

*Sigh* No, it really isn't. I've been abundantly clear on this repeatedly. Bothsidesism is about assigning equal blame to whatever two sides you want to imagine. I'm not doing that, I haven't, and I hope I won't. I don't think the vaccinate and don't vaccinate sides are equally valid, which is why I chose to get vaccinated (second shot next week). I think we'd be better off if more people made that choice.

What I won't do is throw people under the bus who choose differently than me. I won't demonize the Other because they've come to a different conclusion. I won't assume they are less moral than I am, or stupider, or less empathetic to their fellow man. And I will stand up for people who are treated that way, and have their motivations unjustifiably maligned, particularly when I know I do worse things every single day than people who are choosing not to get vaccinated. I'm not going to get on my moral high horse and pretend otherwhise, simply because it's fashionable to do so these days. I understand why people are angry with unvaccinated people, at least in part. But this is just a reflection of our struggles to get along with our fellow humans on other issues. We can't progress as a society until we understand and accept that many people do not view life and assess the same facts the same way we do. People are very different, and that's ultimately a good thing.

Take climate change and the Covid vaccine. Your argument is that there is no difference between dramatically changing your life in order to achieve an extremely small benefit to getting a free shot readily available all over the country that will provide meaningful protection to you and to everyone you come in contact with. The two things aren't equal.

We're choosing to accept a risk for everyone else every time we get into a car and drive

You could not be more wrong.

100% of car accidents are preventable. 100%.

risk increases when people become irresponsible. Drinking and driving, texting, speeding, not following rules of the road, ets...

The riskier your behavior, such as not masking and not vaccinating, the more of a hazard you become.

You could not be more wrong.

100% of car accidents are preventable. 100%.

Theoretically, but not practically. You can have all well-trained drivers completely undistracted and you'd still have accidents, because drivers are people (most of them, for now) and people make mistakes, errors in judgement, etc. under even the best of conditions. A lot fewer of them of course, but not none.

. Your argument is that there is no difference between dramatically changing your life in order to achieve an extremely small benefit to getting a free shot readily available all over the country that will provide meaningful protection to you and to everyone you come in contact with. The two things aren't equal.

That's actually not my argument. It wouldn't take a dramatic change to make a difference vis a vis climate change first of all. What it would take is a lot of people making a change of even small scale and even infinitessimal impacts will be very significant due to the time period involved in climate change. Similarly, one unvaccinated person doesn't nearly have the impact of a lot of unvaccinated people. If you have one unvaccinated person and all the people they know are vaccinated, you don't have much of a problem. The issue is reaching critical mass. In both cases, one person isn't going to affect much in the grand scheme, but groups of people affect quite a bit.

The other part of your statement, regarding the fact that the shot is free and readily available - baked into that is the assumption that getting the shot is an insignificant thing. I think this is where a big part of the divide is. Most of our society accepts getting a shot that most medical professionals recommend as being a benign thing, but some people decidedly don't and consider it a great invasion of their privacy, medical rights, bodily autonomy, etc. When we decide we don't care about that to the point where we go beyond merely saying they are wrong to calling them immoral or stupid for coming to a different conclusion is where I get off the bus.

Theoretically, but not practically. You can have all well-trained drivers completely undistracted and you'd still have accidents, because drivers are people (most of them, for now) and people make mistakes, errors in judgement, etc. under even the best of conditions.



.

exactly. Mistakes, errors in judgment, etc...all of which are preventable. 100% of car accidents are preventable...

Theoretically, but not practically. You can have all well-trained drivers completely undistracted and you'd still have accidents, because drivers are people (most of them, for now) and people make mistakes, errors in judgement, etc. under even the best of conditions. A lot fewer of them of course, but not none.



That's actually not my argument. It wouldn't take a dramatic change to make a difference vis a vis climate change first of all. What it would take is a lot of people making a change of even small scale and even infinitessimal impacts will be very significant due to the time period involved in climate change. Similarly, one unvaccinated person doesn't nearly have the impact of a lot of unvaccinated people. If you have one unvaccinated person and all the people they know are vaccinated, you don't have much of a problem. The issue is reaching critical mass. In both cases, one person isn't going to affect much in the grand scheme, but groups of people affect quite a bit.

The other part of your statement, regarding the fact that the shot is free and readily available - baked into that is the assumption that getting the shot is an insignificant thing. I think this is where a big part of the divide is. Most of our society accepts getting a shot that most medical professionals recommend as being a benign thing, but some people decidedly don't and consider it a great invasion of their privacy, medical rights, bodily autonomy, etc. When we decide we don't care about that to the point where we go beyond merely saying they are wrong to calling them immoral or stupid for coming to a different conclusion is where I get off the bus.

Some people also like shooting guns into the air and find restrictions to be an invasion of their rights, but I find that immoral and stupid as well.

They're shutting down elective surgeries at the three main hospital systems in the largest metro area in SC because none have enough room for COVID patients.

https://www.newsweek.com/blood-centers-say-unvaccinated-people-are-refusing-transfusions-tainted-donations-1620236

We were talking about segregation earlier. I guess we have to bring back blood segregation.

No it's not, it's far worse. Almost everyone who contracts COVID does not die. The current US fatality rate is less than 2%.

We're talking about one individual's contribution to harm. Someone does not need to die to be harmed, but also, one person can affect multiple others to varying degrees. They can be responsible for a ripple in infections that ultimately will damage someone, statistically speaking. This is where the risk to you and others comes in. An unvaxxed person is risking themselves, yes, but also others, because of how easily this spreads. The shot simply makes it harder for the virus to spread and less damaging if you get it. But the effects are not just limited to an individual.

The point about sweatshops, global warming ,etc., is that "it takes a village" to create the conditions that allow those things to flourish. Without the collective, those things don't exist. So it's not remotely comparable, and in fact, is almost the inverse of what we're talking about in terms of a single individual's ability to affect others simply by failing to take precautions to avoid spreading the virus to its maximum capability (unvaxxed, unmasked, etc.).

The other part of your statement, regarding the fact that the shot is free and readily available - baked into that is the assumption that getting the shot is an insignificant thing. I think this is where a big part of the divide is. Most of our society accepts getting a shot that most medical professionals recommend as being a benign thing, but some people decidedly don't and consider it a great invasion of their privacy, medical rights, bodily autonomy, etc. When we decide we don't care about that to the point where we go beyond merely saying they are wrong to calling them immoral or stupid for coming to a different conclusion is where I get off the bus.

Here's the problem with that argument. The vast majority of these people are being totally inconsistent on this point. And in my experience, nearly every person who makes this argument isn't making a well-reasoned argument that has been consistent for decades, it's ALWAYS mixed in with a "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me!" anti-government, pro-right wing slant. Until the government mandates that you get the vaccine, it's not an invasion of anything. It's what a community of people who want to get their lives back to normal do for themselves, their family, their neighbors, and *gasp* people they don't know, don't like or will never meet.

These people don't bat an eyelash when they go in for a routine medical checkup and are told to get bloodwork drawn, or that they need a hep C or tetanus booster, but all of a sudden the government suggesting a vaccine for a pandemic that's been shown to be safe for 8 months is an invasion of their "bodily autonomy"? Give me an effing break! You can dress up your opposition to it in as many ways as you can Google for excuses, it just comes down to not caring about anyone but yourself.

So yeah, if someone believes the risk from the vaccine is greater than the risk of being unvaxxed and getting/spreading Covid, then they are terrible at risk assessment. And if they think their liberty is more important that other people's health, especially when they have not objected to similar intrusions on their liberty in practically every facet of their lives, then they deserve to be called out for it.

Stylized and slicker but the same


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https://www.newsweek.com/blood-centers-say-unvaccinated-people-are-refusing-transfusions-tainted-donations-1620236

We were talking about segregation earlier. I guess we have to bring back blood segregation.

Simple solution. No blood transfusion for you.

If we want to compare not getting vaxxed and not wearing masks to driving, the driver does not use the rules of the road. They drive drunk, they ignore stoplights, don't care about right of way, crosswalks, signaling, or driving the correct direction on a one-way street. It's "I'll drive where I like, when I like, how I like." People accept a certain level of risk when they drive, but not taking basic precautions such as following the best practices of driving raises the level of risk for everyone that you encounter.

If we want to compare not getting vaxxed and not wearing masks to driving, the driver does not use the rules of the road. They drive drunk, they ignore stoplights, don't care about right of way, crosswalks, signaling, or driving the correct direction on a one-way street. It's "I'll drive where I like, when I like, how I like." People accept a certain level of risk when they drive, but not taking basic precautions such as following the best practices of driving raises the level of risk for everyone that you encounter.

then when they inevitably kill someone or damage their property it will be in the name of their freedom!

What I won't do is throw people under the bus who choose differently than me. I won't demonize the Other because they've come to a different conclusion. I won't assume they are less moral than I am, or stupider, or less empathetic to their fellow man. And I will stand up for people who are treated that way, and have their motivations unjustifiably maligned, particularly when I know I do worse things every single day than people who are choosing not to get vaccinated. I'm not going to get on my moral high horse and pretend otherwhise, simply because it's fashionable to do so these days. I understand why people are angry with unvaccinated people, at least in part. But this is just a reflection of our struggles to get along with our fellow humans on other issues. We can't progress as a society until we understand and accept that many people do not view life and assess the same facts the same way we do. People are very different, and that's ultimately a good thing.

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read.

(Though insisting that not getting a shot is the same as driving is probably still the dumbest)

All of your points apply to vaccinations as well KSyrup. Without the collective, there's nobody to spready the virus to, and if the rest of the collective is vaccinated then an individual unvaccinated can't spread the virus widely. Someone doesn't have to die to be harmed by the other examples that have been brought forth also. Etc.

Here's the problem with that argument. The vast majority of these people are being totally inconsistent on this point.

So what? People are inconsistent in general. I don't hold this at all to be a good thing, I think we're all better off when we examine what we believe and behave in principled ways, but there's many aspects of human life where we simply don't do that regularly.

These people don't bat an eyelash when they go in for a routine medical checkup and are told to get bloodwork drawn, or that they need a hep C or tetanus booster, but all of a sudden the government suggesting a vaccine for a pandemic that's been shown to be safe for 8 months is an invasion of their "bodily autonomy"?

I think you'd be surprised how many of them just plain don't do regular medical checkups etc, period, but the greater point is that when they do them, they choose whether or not to have a specific treatment and if they refuse a recommended treatment it's between them and their doctor and nobody else's business.

Just to add data to this so it doesn't degrade into anecdotal tit for tat, as of 2010 over a third of young adults (18-24) didn't visit the doctor at all in the past year. This declines over age naturally, but the overall % of the population 18+ that didn't visit the doctor at all is still 25%, and 35% of those under 18. There is a significant subset of the population that just doesn't regularly interact with the medical system.

if someone believes the risk from the vaccine is greater than the risk of being unvaxxed and getting/spreading Covid, then they are terrible at risk assessment.

Fully agree on this point, as I've said.

if they think their liberty is more important that other people's health, especially when they have not objected to similar intrusions on their liberty in practically every facet of their lives, then they deserve to be called out for it.

I don't think it's at all true that there are similar intrusions to their liberty in every facet of their lives. That's the missing link here.

All of your points apply to vaccinations as well KSyrup. Without the collective, there's nobody to spready the virus to, and if the rest of the collective is vaccinated then an individual unvaccinated can't spread the virus widely. Someone doesn't have to die to be harmed by the other examples that have been brought forth also. Etc.

No no no, we're talking about those PARTICIPATING. The "collective" in terms of the potential affected population always exists in either scenario. It's those who participate in the activity and who they affect that is the difference. One person can directly affect another person in the Covid scenario. But one person cannot make a material difference in global warming or keep a single child from being employed in a sweatshop. One person getting the vaccine can make a direct difference on a micro level. Yes, the more people who get vaccinated the greater the impact overall, but in your scenarios, it's ONLY that collective impact that will have any material affect. There's no micro level impact.

But one person cannot make a material difference in global warming or keep a single child from being employed in a sweatshop.

If I could take a shot to help both, I would. In a second. Even it had really bad side effects. Many people would. Not all. No year of my life have I been over the head harder with how many selfish shitheads there in the world. And I do try to mitigate my impact on both of those things with sacrifices that impact me about a billion times more than spending the 30 seconds to get a free shot. It's been so disheartening how little so many people are willing to do to help.

No year of my life have I been over the head harder with how many selfish shitheads there in the world. .

You just need to grasp that not everyone thinks like you, and that is ok. Once you reach that level of enlightenment you will find them tolerable, even may have affection for them /sarcasm

You just need to grasp that not everyone thinks like you, and that is ok. Once you reach that level of enlightenment you will find them tolerable, even may have affection for them /sarcasm

We can only someday hope to reach that level of enlightenment. This afternoon I'm going to meditate in a beautiful park to better connect with the concept of selfishness and how I can better help and sacrifice for those warriors brave enough to not be willing to lift a finger for anyone else. Lord knows it will always be our job to carry the load, as it has been since COVID started. I just need to meditate and better accept the idea that those are just our roles on this planet, and I should be thanking the selfish people for helping to keep that balance.

I just see those as not being impacted unless there is a societal critical mass involvement, versus "get the vaccine, drastically impact the chance you get Covid and spread it to the person next to you" impact.

That's not my post that you're quoting, Brian.

I think you'd be surprised how many of them just plain don't do regular medical checkups etc, period, but the greater point is that when they do them, they choose whether or not to have a specific treatment and if they refuse a recommended treatment it's between them and their doctor and nobody else's business.

Just to add data to this so it doesn't degrade into anecdotal tit for tat, as of 2010 over a third of young adults (18-24) didn't visit the doctor at all in the past year. This declines over age naturally, but the overall % of the population 18+ that didn't visit the doctor at all is still 25%, and 35% of those under 18. There is a significant subset of the population that just doesn't regularly interact with the medical system.


And that's all well and good when it's their diabetes or cholesterol, etc., that doesn't directly impact anyone else's health. But that's not the situation here. And similar to the other discussion of collective impacts, sure, there is a societal cost to all of the people who let their health go that we end up paying, but that's more financial in the end and doesn't directly impact someone else's health (although you could certainly make the case against smoking with kids...).


I don't think it's at all true that there are similar intrusions to their liberty in every facet of their lives. That's the missing link here.

It's not the missing link. It's just that you disagree. And that's fine, but you're ignoring reality. No one is being forced to do anything by the government. So it's not actually an intrusion of liberty at all. It's simply choosing to put yourself before others. And that's exactly why those people are being called out for it.

I haven't gone to the doctor in a good long while. I did get the shots though when the county set up a vax site at the local community college. It had nothing to do at all with "interact[ing] with the medical system."

We can only someday hope to reach that level of enlightenment. This afternoon I'm going to meditate in a beautiful park to better connect with the concept of selfishness and how I can better help and sacrifice for those warriors brave enough to not be willing to lift a finger for anyone else. Lord knows it will always be our job to carry the load, as it has been since COVID started

Good grief. Nobody has suggested they are 'brave warriors'. Nobody's even said they are above criticism - I've said I think they're wrong myself. How many times do I need to say it how many ways?

What I have also said is that it's not justified to presume their motivations and intelligence based on their opinions. To that end, here's some more inconvenient data; those who don't want the vaccine follow a U-pattern in terms of educational breakdown. It won't surprise many here that those who didn't get any education past high school are near the top in rates of refusal - but even a slightly greater percentage of PHds don't want the vaccine. It's not just the idiots who have come to that conclusion.

Thank you Kodos, I apologize for having the wrong person listed. Corrected now I hope.

Good grief. Nobody has suggested they are 'brave warriors'. Nobody's even said they are above criticism - I've said I think they're wrong myself. How many times do I need to say it how many ways?


You've been portraying yourself as some kind of enlightened justice warrior for standing up for the beleaguered and unfairly judged anti-vaxxers.

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read.

(Though insisting that not getting a shot is the same as driving is probably still the dumbest)

It's some galaxy brain stuff. That line of thinking means you can't judge the guy who downs a bottle of vodka and goes out cruising because it's fun. Or the grown man who wants to date a 12 year old because he's in love.

How dare we get on our high horse and look down on those people because it is fashionable.

I can't tell if it's just some weird-ass libertarian crap or a tribalistic defense because it's a right-winger being maligned.

It's just slick and synthetic "Both Sides" ism.... BS spins facts, conflates data, and makes insane comparisons on the guise of being intellectual, to whit, you can't know what a person's motivations are except their words (except we have video and audio evidence to the contrary) while ignoring the contrarian information we receive. SMH, it's just about deflection, distraction, and confusion under a guise. I see through it... we all do. You cannot be changed so what is the point? Literal data is shat upon, evidence ignored (video/audio of people undermining their stated curated motivations), and squirrel intentions. Ridiculous waste of time and absolutely contrived.

Good grief. Nobody has suggested they are 'brave warriors'. Nobody's even said they are above criticism - I've said I think they're wrong myself. How many times do I need to say it how many ways?

What I have also said is that it's not justified to presume their motivations and intelligence based on their opinions. To that end, here's some more inconvenient data; those who don't want the vaccine follow a U-pattern in terms of educational breakdown. It won't surprise many here that those who didn't get any education past high school are near the top in rates of refusal - but even a slightly greater percentage of PHds don't want the vaccine. It's not just the idiots who have come to that conclusion.

As an advanced degree holder working in a profession where everyone has an advanced degree, let e assure you that there are plenty of PhDs who are fucking idiots.

If Brian actually believed any of that shit he would happily bask in all the individual opinions being expressed here, rather than continually grinding them into dust. Brian's respect for opinions only extends to hypothetical people that are invented to counter whatever someone/anyone else is talking about.

That might be a separate way of looking at this. When you say moron or idiot what do you mean? The research I'm familiar with says that someone of low intelligence isn't capable of reaching that level. This is why, for example, the military has a minimum intelligence required because below a certain level you can't be reliably trained to perform even basic tasks competently.

How would you measurably define someone as an idiot? Maybe people in this thread are calling their fellow citizens idiot and moron and mean something different by it than a person of low intelligence, or define intelligence in different ways than I'm familiar with.

Brian's respect for opinions only extends to hypothetical people that are invented to counter whatever someone/anyone else is talking about.

Not at all. I've been very clear about the distinction I'm making. It's not that opinions can't be criticized. They can and should be, and I take no umbrage with those who have criticized me - btw, it's absolutely hilarious that you take me to task when basically the whole board is aligned against me on this issue, and say that I am the one grinding the opinions of others into dust. What I object to is going beyond that to the personal attacks.

I can't tell if it's just some weird-ass libertarian crap or a tribalistic defense because it's a right-winger being maligned.

As previously mentioned, it's not possible for me to be 'defending the right' on this issue because it's not just right-wingers. Latest version of the poll previously discussed came out a couple weeks ago, and guess what? The numbers haven't moved much. Almost half of the unvaccinated are not Republicans. Over 40% of those who say they're definitely not getting the vaccine aren't. Two-thirds aren't everyone's favorite group to punch in the face, white evangelicals. Etc.

Ironically, if I were to take the approach of 'stop picking on the right' and chose this as my issue to do it with, people would be very justified in accusing me of distorting facts/data, because a large part of the people I am defending aren't on the right.

I'm far more concerned about the impact on society. When this pandemic has come and gone and whatever status quo settles in has occurred, there will still be other issues. There always are. There will always, always, always be a minority that bucks the view of the majority. How we treat that minority says more about what us as a society than the issues which cause the division.

When you say moron or idiot what do you mean?

Someone who refuses to take 5 minutes out of their day to virtually eliminate a danger of severe illness, and to protect those around them, is a moron.

Easy starting point for me. The longer we go the simpler this is.

They're in the same category as people who think they drive better drunk. Also morons. I'm not interested in validating any of their opinions or presuming that they have just the best intentions at heart and that I'm not allowed to question that. They all fucking suck.

So moron then = people who make decisions that we detest. Under that definition, I'd agree that the unvaccinated are morons. Of course, I'd have to loop a non-trivial set of people that I've had the pleasure to know, and some amount of the posters on this board, into that group as well. I'd also have to call myself one, as I've done a number of things in my life I detest. I'd be more impressed as I think about this, to be able to name people who haven't been morons at one point or another.

Not even close to my definition, which was very narrow.

I stand corrected. Would it be an accurate statement of your point then that those who aren't vaccinated and/or drive drunk are morons, and all people who don't do those things aren't?

Anyone have the number for Goalpost Movers, Inc?

SI

I now personally know 4 anti-vaccers, anti-maskers that are very sick right now with Covid. One I am really worried about is in his 70's. I talked to his son last week who has it as well, and he gave me the "we are going to be fine. It's just a flu." I talked to his wife today, and they are both bedridden and they are afraid the dad is going to have to go the hospital if he doesn't improve. *sigh*

I've seen a bunch of these memes lately (one of the Beatles + Yoko with Yoko labeled the Delta Variant), but I thought this one was clever.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">my fall plans the delta variant <a href="https://t.co/CnHIRoA8QV">pic.twitter.com/CnHIRoA8QV</a></p>&mdash; Loudwire (@Loudwire) <a href="https://twitter.com/Loudwire/status/1428346453261438987?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 19, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is going well.

At least 10,384 students are in quarantine across the Hillsborough County Public School District in Florida.

That's about double from when I posted a few days ago. 5600 on Tuesday.

I met up with a friend yesterday who is very anti-mask in school. He and his wife go to the BOE meetings, etc...When I asked him about what is happening in TX and Fla and why he thinks it won't happen here he really didn't have an answer.

It amazes me how people can't see whats happening in other school districts and still want to send the kids unmasked.

I have a friend in Florida who says all her Trumper friends are taking Ivermectin to either fight COVID or prevent it. That's right, people are wary of sticking themselves with needles full of "experimental vaccines" but are perfectly willing to take anti-parasitic dog medicine. You really can't fix this level of stupid.

The g
Trump acolyte I posted about a couple of days ago who is leading the takeover of the SC GOP died from Covid this morning.

At least he died the way he lived, as a fucking idiot.

South Carolina Tea Party Leader Succumbs To Covid-19 - FITSNews (https://www.fitsnews.com/2021/08/19/south-carolina-tea-party-leader-succumbs-to-covid-19/)

The g
Trump acolyte I posted about a couple of days ago who is leading the takeover of the SC GOP died from Covid this morning.

At least he died the way he lived, as a fucking idiot.

South Carolina Tea Party Leader Succumbs To Covid-19 - FITSNews (https://www.fitsnews.com/2021/08/19/south-carolina-tea-party-leader-succumbs-to-covid-19/)

I'm still shocked that some of these political leaders really are unvaxxed. I just figure that they all get secretly vaxxed while still riding the political wave of saying that they are unvaxxed.

But some of them really do seem to be getting high on their own supply and actually literally refusing to get vaxxed themselves.

Amazing.

The g
Trump acolyte I posted about a couple of days ago who is leading the takeover of the SC GOP died from Covid this morning.

At least he died the way he lived, as a fucking idiot.

South Carolina Tea Party Leader Succumbs To Covid-19 - FITSNews (https://www.fitsnews.com/2021/08/19/south-carolina-tea-party-leader-succumbs-to-covid-19/)

They're blaming the hospitals and encouraging their followers to avoid hospitals at all costs.

I concur.

They're blaming the hospitals and encouraging their followers to avoid hospitals at all costs.

I concur.

I hope they heed that advice.