View Full Version : NBA Draft Lottery/Draft/Offseason thread.
stevew
05-19-2009, 07:52 AM
Someone will win the chance to take Blake Griffin tonight. I believe its approx 830.
The Draft is June 24th.
DaddyTorgo
05-19-2009, 08:09 AM
does anyone really want to win the Blake Griffin lottery?
Don't get me wrong, I think he'll be an okay player, a nice depth guy, but I don't see him as being a superstar.
And before Icy gets here and gets upset - don't forget that the #1 team could also take Ricky Rubio!
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 08:25 AM
I'd be happy with Blake Griffin at #1. I think he could be an Elton Brand-level player, which is good value for #1.
Big fan of Rubio though, very interested to see how he handles the transition to the NBA game.
Mustang
05-19-2009, 10:23 AM
Tonight, David Stern will decide who will have the chance to take Blake Griffin tonight. I believe its approx 830.
Fixed. (in more ways than one)
albionmoonlight
05-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Bill Simmons and Malcom Gladwell have a chat where they talk about getting rid of the draft all together.
Kind of a neat idea--anyone over 18 can sign an employment contract with any team.
But the NFL and NBA have done such a good job of making the drafts into events that I don't see them going anywhere. Nor would the teams want to have to compete for the young free agents. I'm sure that every company in the world would love to be able to "draft" young talent out of college/grad school and have them work for an artificially depressed wage for 4 years before having to pay them market value. And the unions cares so much more about the current players than the future players (as they should) that they will never push to get rid of the draft.
How do other sports do it in other countries? Does football/soccer allow players to sign contracts at any age, or are the players restricted in some way early in their careers?
sterlingice
05-19-2009, 10:30 AM
Sure, Blake Griffin isn't the greatest #1 in the world, but it sure as hell beats picking 10th or 20th in this draft. It's not like the NFL where a bad early draft pick can hurt you cap-wise. They're relatively cheap compared to veterans so it's not a burden to pick too high.
SI
sterlingice
05-19-2009, 10:34 AM
Bill Simmons and Malcom Gladwell have a chat where they talk about getting rid of the draft all together.
Kind of a neat idea--anyone over 18 can sign an employment contract with any team.
Yeah, that's called baseball and international players/transfers. I'd rather have the NBA's system any day and even the NFL's, tho they're going to fix that in a couple of years. The idea of the draft is to be a leveler so the rich don't get richer and if you let any team sign any player, you're talking about a competitive balance mess.
SI
sterlingice
05-19-2009, 10:38 AM
I think another good analogy would major college sports where the winners continue to get richer and the poor get poorer.
SI
stevew
05-19-2009, 11:36 AM
I might take Rickey Rubio number one.
My favorite part of the lotto show is when a team expecting to pick 8th doesn't see their name there. That means they are in the top 3 and their fans usually go crazy.
This is probably the worst class since the one where KMart went number one.
Karlifornia
05-19-2009, 11:52 AM
After Blake Griffin carried my Top Gun team to victory, I have complete faith in him. Come on, Warriors! Make the leap!
Gary Gorski
05-19-2009, 11:52 AM
Ok so what are the chances that Oklahoma City gets #1 to keep Griffin there (Westbrook, Durant, Green and Griffin would be a nice young nucleus there) and then New York gets #2 so NY gets their point guard in Rubio who would totally flourish under D'Antoni and would team with Lebron in 2010?
Agreed on the weakness of the draft - after those two its pretty meh. There are some good athletes and some guys that might turn out to be decent players but from Thabeet on down I don't see anyone who looks to be an impact player next season.
Schmidty
05-19-2009, 11:59 AM
It sucks that the Pistons finished one spot out of the lottery. They really need some help, and I don't see many enticing players in that spot (15th).
Fighter of Foo
05-19-2009, 11:59 AM
James harden will be a good player.
Gary Gorski
05-19-2009, 11:59 AM
Bill Simmons and Malcom Gladwell have a chat where they talk about getting rid of the draft all together.
Kind of a neat idea--anyone over 18 can sign an employment contract with any team.
But the NFL and NBA have done such a good job of making the drafts into events that I don't see them going anywhere. Nor would the teams want to have to compete for the young free agents. I'm sure that every company in the world would love to be able to "draft" young talent out of college/grad school and have them work for an artificially depressed wage for 4 years before having to pay them market value. And the unions cares so much more about the current players than the future players (as they should) that they will never push to get rid of the draft.
Worst.idea.ever.
You might as well fold up 6-10 teams right then and there. In the NBA all it takes is one stud to turn a horrific franchise into one that can a) be a playoff contender and more importantly b) sell out the arena and boost merchandise sales - just look at the Cavs. Every top player would go to sign with NY, LA, Boston, Chicago and the other major markets. You'd have the equivalent of college sports - the top guys will go to the top teams until they run out of money (scholarships) and then they have to go look at the next tier of teams until they have no place to go but Memphis and Sacramento.
And if someone wants to draft me and pay me an artifically depressed seven figure wage show me where to sign up and I'm there!
Gary Gorski
05-19-2009, 12:01 PM
It sucks that the Pistons finished one spot out of the lottery. They really need some help, and I don't see many enticing players in that spot (15th).
There's talk of them trading it to Washington along with Rip assuming Washington doesn't land in the top 2 for their pick and maybe Nick Young or something...not that Thabeet and Nick Young would be much help though. The Pistons can get the help they need in free agency (hopefully) - wouldn't hurt to hire a coach who knows what he's doing either.
Lathum
05-19-2009, 02:01 PM
I would love to see the Nets get Griffin, Griffin and Lopez would be a sweet frontcourt.
Schmidty
05-19-2009, 02:55 PM
There's talk of them trading it to Washington along with Rip assuming Washington doesn't land in the top 2 for their pick and maybe Nick Young or something...not that Thabeet and Nick Young would be much help though. The Pistons can get the help they need in free agency (hopefully) - wouldn't hurt to hire a coach who knows what he's doing either.
Yeah, I heard that rumor too, and I totally agree about Curry. He sucks. Either bring in an experience, or give Lamb a shot, at least he's coached for a few years and has won a lot. Joe seems to really be slipping in his decisions. I hope he gets back to his old self soon.
TroyF
05-19-2009, 03:51 PM
There's talk of them trading it to Washington along with Rip assuming Washington doesn't land in the top 2 for their pick and maybe Nick Young or something...not that Thabeet and Nick Young would be much help though. The Pistons can get the help they need in free agency (hopefully) - wouldn't hurt to hire a coach who knows what he's doing either.
Just resign AI and let him run the show. :)
The Pistons freed up cap space with the Chauncey trade, but I despise their nucleus now. I like Rip and I like Prince (as a third option type of guy), but where do you go from there?
Is it Boozer? Do you think Stuckey will be able to run the show next year? I like his size, but he shot horribly the last three months of the season. (which went into the playoffs) and he's not an especially great playmaker to have an under 45% true shooting clip.
mckerney
05-19-2009, 04:39 PM
I'm hoping that the Wolves can win the 3rd pick and get Thabeet, Blake Griffin does nothing for them and I don't want Rubio. Of course with the way Taylor continues to mismanage the franchise they probably won't even have a GM for the draft and McHale will again be able to trade whoever they pick for a worse player drafted a few spots back and absolutely nothing of value. :(
RainMaker
05-19-2009, 04:55 PM
I like Simmons idea better of giving each team in the lottery the same odds. You stop the late season tanking a little and allow a semi-decent team a chance to grab a star. Look what it did for a team like Chicago who was a fringe playoff team and immediately became a pseudo-contender in the East by the end of the year. Maybe you can give a slight advantage to worse teams so that you don't have teams tanking the 8 seed in the playoffs.
I personally would put every team in the lottery. Weight it down so that the worst team has maybe a 10% chance while the best has under 1%. It wouldn't punish teams like the Pistons who run a good organization and finish in the playoffs every year. They never have a shot at top talent in the draft which is a bit unfair while teams like the Bobcats get to squander picks in the top 5 year in and year out.
The other thing I'd do is not just have the lottery for the top 3 picks. It would be for the whole draft. Again, the odds are not in a team's favor to move up a lot, but it can happen. You might see an Orlando squad get a little lucky and pick 8th this year or something. The championship Bulls squads never really got a chance to add good young talent to their teams. Wouldn't it have been interesting to see them grab a top 10 pick one year to play alongside Jordan? Wouldn't it be entertaining to see a Lakers team have a shot at grabbing a Brandon Jennings? Maybe Miami getting Ricky Rubio?
The problem with the current system is that you have these young stars being brought into inept, shitty organizations. It'll take 4-5 years before most of them can even be on a contender. Do we really want to see a talent like Griffin end up in Memphis or Milwaukee? I'd rather see a Utah or New Orleans have a shot at getting that pick and being able to add him to the puzzle. I think it benefits the NBA as a whole as well as stops rewarding horrible organizations for their failures.
Note: I'm of course a little bias on this but curious what other people think. Was Derrick Rose being on the Bulls (market size out of the equation) better for the NBA than him being drafted by Washington where he'd have won 25 games?
RainMaker
05-19-2009, 05:06 PM
I don't think Rubio is a true #1. While he's got just about every major skill required to play PG in the NBA, he's just not all that quick compared to the premier guards in the league. With this league being all about speed, I think the safest bet is still Griffin who will be a guaranteed 20/10 guy for years.
Lathum
05-19-2009, 07:39 PM
this is why I hate ESPN. If I wanted to watch a pregame show I would watch the pregame show.
chinaski
05-19-2009, 07:42 PM
Im just praying OKC gets a bust.
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 07:46 PM
I'm hoping that the Wolves can win the 3rd pick and get Thabeet, Blake Griffin does nothing for them and I don't want Rubio. Of course with the way Taylor continues to mismanage the franchise they probably won't even have a GM for the draft and McHale will again be able to trade whoever they pick for a worse player drafted a few spots back and absolutely nothing of value. :(
Even ignoring my own personal opinion of Thabeet's pro chances (not good), is he such a good fit? Kevin Love looked good by season's end, and I don't know that a Love-Jefferson frontcourt gives them much of a need to upgrade that spot. Rubio would be great for these guys.
If it's Kings or TWolves at #1, I think both would need to at least consider Rubio at that spot, given their needs.
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:47 PM
Ooh...that music is so riveting.
Lathum
05-19-2009, 07:48 PM
Ooh...that music is so riveting.
lol.
bah, Nets pick 11
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:48 PM
I think the real question is whether Oklahoma City will jump to get the #1 pick.
Lathum
05-19-2009, 07:48 PM
The Griz move up
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:49 PM
lol.
bah, Nets pick 11
Yeah. I didn't expect they would jump high and I'm fine with that. The 11th pick in a weak draft isn't too bad.
Lathum
05-19-2009, 07:49 PM
lol.
Kings get fucked
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:49 PM
The Kings sent Chris Webber? Interesting.
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:50 PM
I wish they'd do this thing like a regular lottery. Even if it was more "boring" that way...it's hard to watch and think "c'mon did they really not rig this?" Make a reality show out of it.
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:53 PM
I can't believe OKC won't try to move up.
Lathum
05-19-2009, 07:53 PM
Poor Blake
Big Fo
05-19-2009, 07:55 PM
Ouch, the two interesting players in the draft could go to the two biggest joke franchises in the league.
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 07:57 PM
Donald Sterling is already paying Baron Davis too much money. I'm sure he can be convinced to move down two spots in exchange for say, OKC's 1st round next year and a player or two.
DeToxRox
05-19-2009, 07:59 PM
So who got #2, OKC or Memphis? What the hell even happens now besides a trade. Those two teams drafted PG's top 5 the last few years no?
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 08:02 PM
So who got #2, OKC or Memphis? What the hell even happens now besides a trade. Those two teams drafted PG's top 5 the last few years no?
Memphis #2, OKC, #3
The 2009 lottery draft order goes as follows:
1. L.A. Clippers
2. Memphis
3. Oklahoma City
4. Sacramento
5. Washington
6. Minnesota
7. Golden State
8. New York
9. Toronto
10. Milwaukee
11. New Jersey
12. Charlotte
13. Indiana
14. Phoenix
stevew
05-19-2009, 08:11 PM
Griffin needs to smoke weed or refuse to workout. The clippers will ruin your life.
RainMaker
05-19-2009, 08:31 PM
I was hoping OKC would get #1. They'd have a real fun team with Griffin.
stevew
05-19-2009, 08:38 PM
I'm glad Hijack City didn't win.
duckman
05-19-2009, 08:40 PM
Im just praying OKC gets a bust.
You stay classy, prick. :rolleyes:
RainMaker
05-19-2009, 08:56 PM
Not OKC fault that their owner and David Stern are shitbags.
Warhammer
05-19-2009, 09:00 PM
Memphis is very interested in Rubio. If they get him, Conley will be shipped out or turned into a backup PG.
cthomer5000
05-19-2009, 09:03 PM
How do other sports do it in other countries? Does football/soccer allow players to sign contracts at any age, or are the players restricted in some way early in their careers?
In Europe, it's pretty much a free market. Some countries have restrictions on when a player can sign a 'professional' contract, but those countries simply see their players scooped up by other countries who don't.
A 17 year old made his debut for Manchester United (pretty much biggest/best team in world) late in the season this year and scored a few massive goals.
He left Italy to sign with Manchester United because he couldn't sign a pro deal in Italy until he was 17... whereas he signed with Man U at 14/15.
Wayne Rooney made his debut for Everton when he was 16, then was sold to Man U in a massive deal (Ģ25.6 million) when he was like 18.
Some exceptional talents break into teams around 16, but they're already collecting money being part of the reserves/youth teams.
I'm sure someone even more familiar with the details can provide a bit more insight into the details of what players are compensated for being parts of academy programs.
The bottom line is that instead of adding players to your team in the 18-23 range like teams do in the NBA/NFL... you're literally getting them into your academy programs when they're like 10, grooming them to be a part of your team, then signing them to pro deals from there.
The other huge difference is that players have a lot of power there. Pretty much enough sulking or talking to the press can get you transfered (sold) to another team if that's what you really want. Guys are bought and sold for crazy amounts regularly.
miami_fan
05-19-2009, 09:06 PM
I was hoping OKC would get #1. They'd have a real fun team with Griffin.
You really wanted the Oklahoma City Thunder to just happen to win the lottery so they could just happen to pick a Oklahoma Sooner? 25 years after the Patrick Ewing Conspiracy to the Knicks?
Big Fo
05-19-2009, 09:20 PM
The other huge difference is that players have a lot of power there. Pretty much enough sulking or talking to the press can get you transfered (sold) to another team if that's what you really want. Guys are bought and sold for crazy amounts regularly.
And you can't trade for a player's contract like you can in the big North American sports. You can buy a player's registration and then must agree to a new contract with the player.
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 09:39 PM
I can't wait to see if the Thunder continue their string of drafting bigmen projects that don't pan out by selecting Thabeet.
My quick mock of the lottery now would be:
1. Clippers - Blake Griffin
2. Grizzlies - Ricky Rubio
3. Thunder - Hasheem Thabeet (Harden would be the wise choice)
4. Kings - Brandon Jennings
5. Wizards - Jordan Hill
6. Timberwolves - James Harden
7. Warriors - Tyreke Evans
8. Knicks - Stephen Curry
9. Raptors - Demar DeRozan
10. Bucks - Ty Lawson
11. Nets - DeJuan Blair
12. Bobcats - Earl Clark
13. Pacers - Eric Maynor
14. Suns - Gerald Henderson
RainMaker
05-19-2009, 09:53 PM
Grizzlies will take Thabeet. They need size real bad.
I like the Curry to New York pick. Perfect fit for that style. He'll need to put on some muscle but will be a great outside threat for Lebron to kick the ball out to in 2010. :)
stevew
05-19-2009, 10:00 PM
This is the Clippers 20th trip to the lottery. LOL.
chinaski
05-19-2009, 10:09 PM
Not OKC fault that their owner and David Stern are shitbags.
+jillion
Young Drachma
05-19-2009, 10:16 PM
I can't wait to see if the Thunder continue their string of drafting bigmen projects that don't pan out by selecting Thabeet.
My quick mock of the lottery now would be:
1. Clippers - Blake Griffin
2. Grizzlies - Ricky Rubio
3. Thunder - Hasheem Thabeet (Harden would be the wise choice)
4. Kings - Brandon Jennings
5. Wizards - Jordan Hill
6. Timberwolves - James Harden
7. Warriors - Tyreke Evans
8. Knicks - Stephen Curry
9. Raptors - Demar DeRozan
10. Bucks - Ty Lawson
11. Nets - DeJuan Blair
12. Bobcats - Earl Clark
13. Pacers - Eric Maynor
14. Suns - Gerald Henderson
Nets will take James Johnson unless someone snaps him up earlier, which seems unlikely.
stevew
05-19-2009, 10:18 PM
King Obama can buy GM and force Chrysler into bankruptcy. But he can't take 3 seconds to seize the Clippers , fire David stern and move the team to Seattle? Fuckin priorities man.
Warhammer
05-19-2009, 10:56 PM
Grizzlies will take Thabeet. They need size real bad.
I like the Curry to New York pick. Perfect fit for that style. He'll need to put on some muscle but will be a great outside threat for Lebron to kick the ball out to in 2010. :)
Scuttlebutt is that they are not high on Thabeet. I tend to agree, while they need size, they need attitude as well. I would rather take Blair than Thabeet. They also need to upgrade their PG spot, if Rubio is as good as advertised, I take him and then run and gun.
molson
05-19-2009, 11:11 PM
I like Simmons idea better of giving each team in the lottery the same odds. You stop the late season tanking a little and allow a semi-decent team a chance to grab a star. Look what it did for a team like Chicago who was a fringe playoff team and immediately became a pseudo-contender in the East by the end of the year. Maybe you can give a slight advantage to worse teams so that you don't have teams tanking the 8 seed in the playoffs.
I personally would put every team in the lottery. Weight it down so that the worst team has maybe a 10% chance while the best has under 1%. It wouldn't punish teams like the Pistons who run a good organization and finish in the playoffs every year. They never have a shot at top talent in the draft which is a bit unfair while teams like the Bobcats get to squander picks in the top 5 year in and year out.
The other thing I'd do is not just have the lottery for the top 3 picks. It would be for the whole draft. Again, the odds are not in a team's favor to move up a lot, but it can happen. You might see an Orlando squad get a little lucky and pick 8th this year or something. The championship Bulls squads never really got a chance to add good young talent to their teams. Wouldn't it have been interesting to see them grab a top 10 pick one year to play alongside Jordan? Wouldn't it be entertaining to see a Lakers team have a shot at grabbing a Brandon Jennings? Maybe Miami getting Ricky Rubio?
The problem with the current system is that you have these young stars being brought into inept, shitty organizations. It'll take 4-5 years before most of them can even be on a contender. Do we really want to see a talent like Griffin end up in Memphis or Milwaukee? I'd rather see a Utah or New Orleans have a shot at getting that pick and being able to add him to the puzzle. I think it benefits the NBA as a whole as well as stops rewarding horrible organizations for their failures.
Note: I'm of course a little bias on this but curious what other people think. Was Derrick Rose being on the Bulls (market size out of the equation) better for the NBA than him being drafted by Washington where he'd have won 25 games?
I would love a full lottery, every spot up for grabs, no weighing. Aside from being spectacular television, I think it would just make the whole league more interesting.
Blake Griffin to the Clippers is not fun or interesting. Blake Griffin to the Celtics or Hawks or Nuggets or Spurs would be extremely interesting.
The only downside of course is that theoretically, it's harder for bad teams to get better. But I just don't think that would be a huge issue. You still have the salary cap. I think a team like the Clippers might actually benefit. Instead of being in perpetual rebuilding mode, knowing that they can always count on a top-5 guy coming in to give them hope, they'd have to change their outlook and look to build their team in other ways.
You'd have way more trades involving draft picks. Teams wouldn't be able to plan around a few bad seasons and the draft picks that come with them. There would always be pressure to maintain at least an "OK" team, because you never know when the #1 pick will drop in your lap.
This is one of those fun, creative ideas that will never happen with a conservative major league. The only way we'll ever seen any innovation in league structure, in any sport, is if a competitive league ever emerged.
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 11:15 PM
I would love a full lottery, every spot up for grabs, no weighing. Aside from being spectacular television, I think it would just make the whole league more interesting.
I agree in some respects, but you know, what if the Lakers win a championship and then get 3 top-5 picks in a row.
I think a weighted lottery from top to bottom of the first round, with a higher chance of teams moving a few spots would be better. The NBA champion would still have an incredibly remote chance of getting the #1 that way, but bad teams will still have the best chance.
DeToxRox
05-19-2009, 11:17 PM
I agree in some respects, but you know, what if the Lakers win a championship and then get 3 top-5 picks in a row.
I think a weighted lottery from top to bottom of the first round, with a higher chance of teams moving a few spots would be better. The NBA champion would still have an incredibly remote chance of getting the #1 that way, but bad teams will still have the best chance.
The NHL did this after the lockout and I was riveted as a Wings fan as Detroit kept getting closer to #1 from where they'd normally pick. Granted I think we only got to #22 but that was awesome.
Also though it was for the rights to Crosby which sure didn't hurt.
stevew
05-19-2009, 11:24 PM
I agree in some respects, but you know, what if the Lakers win a championship and then get 3 top5 picks in a row. I think this happened in the early 80s. They got Worthy number 1 thanks to the cavs.
Logan
05-19-2009, 11:25 PM
Part of Simmons' point was that you keep giving these teams high picks, and they still end up in the same slots a few years down the road anyway. It's rewarding continued failure.
I think any teams that end up in the lottery for the 3rd year in a row should automatically be given the highest spots outside of the lottery. If three teams all qualify, they get the 14th-16th picks and the three worst playoff teams move up, and everyone else moves up as well.
molson
05-19-2009, 11:28 PM
I agree in some respects, but you know, what if the Lakers win a championship and then get 3 top-5 picks in a row.
Then they'd have a shot at a major dynasty, but they'd also be limited by the cap.
Would they really want to devote that much cap space to 3 guys who very well might never pan out + Kobe? That's be an extremely risky (and interesting) decision. It could fail spectacularly, which would be entertaining, or it could make them the super-villains of the league, which would also be interesting.
RainMaker
05-19-2009, 11:32 PM
Scuttlebutt is that they are not high on Thabeet. I tend to agree, while they need size, they need attitude as well. I would rather take Blair than Thabeet. They also need to upgrade their PG spot, if Rubio is as good as advertised, I take him and then run and gun.
Chad Ford said they were considering taking Thabeet even if they had the #1 pick. If they take Rubio, they have a lot of small guys and literally no one inside. I just don't know how they can pass on a big guy if they aren't able to grab one in free agency or through a trade.
Personally I'd try and unload Conley and go with Rubio. Guys over 7'2 rarely stay healthy and it's tough to pass up on a guy who can be leading the point for the next 10-15 years.
stevew
05-19-2009, 11:34 PM
I think it would be better if there were just 10 picks in the entire draft, and every other player was available to be signed. Then the teams in the draft would most likely have a powerful trading chip.
Give the bottom 15 teams in the league an equal amount of chips and the top 10 choices would come out of that. Salary cap space would actually mean something as well.
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 11:40 PM
Part of Simmons' point was that you keep giving these teams high picks, and they still end up in the same slots a few years down the road anyway. It's rewarding continued failure.
I think any teams that end up in the lottery for the 3rd year in a row should automatically be given the highest spots outside of the lottery. If three teams all qualify, they get the 14th-16th picks and the three worst playoff teams move up, and everyone else moves up as well.
That comes down to bad GM'ing. Unless the draft has a LeBron James or slightly lesser talent in it, you just aren't going to rebuild through the draft. The wise teams are the ones that use their draft picks to acquire players, outside of the draftees if need be, who will help them win right now.
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 11:50 PM
Chad Ford said they were considering taking Thabeet even if they had the #1 pick. If they take Rubio, they have a lot of small guys and literally no one inside. I just don't know how they can pass on a big guy if they aren't able to grab one in free agency or through a trade.
Personally I'd try and unload Conley and go with Rubio. Guys over 7'2 rarely stay healthy and it's tough to pass up on a guy who can be leading the point for the next 10-15 years.
My issue with Thabeet is that the guy is massive and reasonably athletic. He should have been a completely dominant player this season, but far too often he was a non-factor for large stretches of the game. There is no excuse for a guy with his size and his draft status to be invisible on a college basketball court. In that respect he reminds me quite a bit of Roy Hibbert. Thabeet has the better physical tools, but they both did not dominate like you'd expect them to, yet Hibbert at least had a decent touch around the basket.
I have no doubt Thabeet can be a defensive presence in the NBA, but he is so far from polished that if I were a GM I could never justify selecting him top-5, even in this weak draft. Drafting for need is a horrible mistake to make that high in the draft.
If I'm the Grizzlies I take the best player available at #2 - ie. Rubio - and then worry about my frontcourt later. Rubio is FAR less likely to bust than Thabeet IMO, and the Grizzlies need talent above all else. They have a good SG, a SF that has some value but is yet to prove a "winning" player, and that's about it. They have some young big guys who, while they'll never be stars, can at the very least fill the gaps until the Grizzlies are in a position to land a more permanent solution.
Groundhog
05-19-2009, 11:52 PM
I like the Curry to New York pick. Perfect fit for that style. He'll need to put on some muscle but will be a great outside threat for Lebron to kick the ball out to in 2010. :)
Honestly, I think Curry to New York makes so much sense that I wouldn't be surprised if Golden State or Minnesota grab him first and try and make NY trade for him.
Chief Rum
05-19-2009, 11:55 PM
Some of you guys really suck.
--Resident Clippers fan
stevew
05-20-2009, 12:07 AM
I wasn't aware Mike Dunleavey or Elgin Baylor posted here.
Chief Rum
05-20-2009, 12:19 AM
I wasn't aware Mike Dunleavey or Elgin Baylor posted here.
You may not have heard, but if Elgin posted here, I doubt he would have anything complementary to say about the Clippers.
And if Dunleavy posted here, I doubt I would have anything complementary to say about Dunleavy.
RainMaker
05-20-2009, 01:42 AM
My issue with Thabeet is that the guy is massive and reasonably athletic. He should have been a completely dominant player this season, but far too often he was a non-factor for large stretches of the game. There is no excuse for a guy with his size and his draft status to be invisible on a college basketball court. In that respect he reminds me quite a bit of Roy Hibbert. Thabeet has the better physical tools, but they both did not dominate like you'd expect them to, yet Hibbert at least had a decent touch around the basket.
I have no doubt Thabeet can be a defensive presence in the NBA, but he is so far from polished that if I were a GM I could never justify selecting him top-5, even in this weak draft. Drafting for need is a horrible mistake to make that high in the draft.
If I'm the Grizzlies I take the best player available at #2 - ie. Rubio - and then worry about my frontcourt later. Rubio is FAR less likely to bust than Thabeet IMO, and the Grizzlies need talent above all else. They have a good SG, a SF that has some value but is yet to prove a "winning" player, and that's about it. They have some young big guys who, while they'll never be stars, can at the very least fill the gaps until the Grizzlies are in a position to land a more permanent solution.
I agree with everything you said and was really surprised to read the Grizzlies were so enamored with Thabeet. I honestly feel he's a nice top 10 pick, but not a #2. I think a Marcus Camby is the ceiling for him.
But it's the Grizzlies so I'm assuming that whatever is the logical pick they'll do the opposite.
mckerney
05-20-2009, 02:33 AM
Honestly, I think Curry to New York makes so much sense that I wouldn't be surprised if Golden State or Minnesota grab him first and try and make NY trade for him.
Please no more of that shit for Minnesota, especially while Glen Taylor is making sure that any competent GM candidate isn't going to want the Wolves job. :(
Karlifornia
05-20-2009, 03:46 AM
I heard an idea on a Warriors message board that was even better than molson's idea:
Have the lottery the same day as the draft, and as soon as the team for pick #1 gets revealed, start the clock.
whomario
05-20-2009, 04:44 AM
Griffin needs to smoke weed or refuse to workout. The clippers will ruin your life.
wait a minute here. Isnīt that what used to be the requirements to get drafted by the Clippers ? :D
Curry to New York ---> reportedly heīs been given a promise weeks ago that the Knicks would take him, unless they would have moved in the Top3, to convince him to declare in the first place.
And yeah, the Pick makes sense. And now donīt be shocked if heīll actually run the Point as a starter. Imo even with the rising apreciation for his PG skills heīs still really underrated in that aspect. Remember me talking about Aaron Brooks not being able to play a lot of passes ? Imo Curry can do a whole lot of different and difficult passes. Had he played with a Top10 school i could have seen averaging 7,5+ assists with maybe 3 TOs max instead of 5,6/3,6.
So imo all that talk about him being a spot up shooter and come-off-screens scorer is way overblown.
Why would the Grizzlies need size so bad ? I mean, the other Gasol wonīt be an all star, but he averaged 12/7,5 on good shooting while getting to the line pretty well (4,6 times a game for a 12 PPG scorer is good). Isnīt much of a shotblocker, but could very well put up 15/9 with good position defense and good passing for a big for a couple years.
Thabeet and him could never see the floor together.
Thabeet is raw, sure. But imo heīll be helped a bit by the different structure of the nBA game on offense. Thereīs more Pick & Role and more penetrating and giving it to the big guy when that guys defender helps.
I wouldnīt take him over Rubio though, who will be a star. Maybe not immediately, but eventually heīll be great.
Imo Memphis should take him. Itīs not like they havenīt had good experiences with spanish guys so far, too ;)
Would love to see him on OKC though. They could play some really intriguing defense and then get out on the break with the athletes they got. Plus Durant isnīt the type of scorer that needs the ball all the time or organizes the teams offense and runs the plays, so heīd be getting fine usage there.
Theyīd still need a shooter on the 2 spot though or shooters in general, they were like dead last in 3 point attempts if i recall correctly.
Rubio
Shooter X
Durant
Green
Krstic
Westbrook coming off the bench backing up both guard spots. Sefolosha is a pretty good defender, too.
DaddyTorgo
05-20-2009, 07:58 AM
couldn't you see westbrook as a decent SG in that setup though? He might not be an All Star SG, but he'd at least be decent - particularly if you want to run an up-tempo mike d'antoni type offense and run and penetrate
RainMaker
05-20-2009, 08:12 AM
Why would the Grizzlies need size so bad ? I mean, the other Gasol wonīt be an all star, but he averaged 12/7,5 on good shooting while getting to the line pretty well (4,6 times a game for a 12 PPG scorer is good). Isnīt much of a shotblocker, but could very well put up 15/9 with good position defense and good passing for a big for a couple years.
Thabeet and him could never see the floor together.
Gasol is a crappy rebounder and defender. Those are two things the Grizzlies desperately need. He's also probably better suited to play PF if they can get him to drop 30 pounds.
I like Rubio's game but I still don't think he's the sure thing a lot of you guys are making him out to be. He's only 18 and that's always a huge question mark. He's also not very quick or athletic compared to the premier point guards in the game. Sure that doesn't come into play much in the international game, but how does he handle going against faster guards like Paul, Rose, Rondo night in and night out? The current NBA rules are built for speed and quickness, something Rubio doesn't thrive in.
Not saying the Griz shouldn't take him at #2, just saying I think he's going to have some growing pains in the NBA. He's not going to adjust as quickly as guys like Paul and Williams did. It's going to take him 4-5 years before he is at a high level while Thabeet can step in and give you 10 boards and a few blocks every night right off the bat.
Racer
05-20-2009, 08:32 AM
The Pacers need to do something to get out of mediocrity. They are about the worse play to be record wise in the NBA right now. They'd be better off being terrible.
JPhillips
05-20-2009, 09:09 AM
The Pacers need to do something to get out of mediocrity. They are about the worse play to be record wise in the NBA right now. They'd be better off being terrible.
Local radio doesn't get this. I've heard several people praise the team for staying competitive, but IMO that's the worst possible scenario. Grainger is a borderline star, but after that they're just a collection of role players. If they're going to be competitive they have to have another star, and the chance of getting one in the middle of the draft is slim.
Fighter of Foo
05-20-2009, 09:14 AM
I like Rubio's game but I still don't think he's the sure thing a lot of you guys are making him out to be. He's only 18 and that's always a huge question mark. He's also not very quick or athletic compared to the premier point guards in the game. Sure that doesn't come into play much in the international game, but how does he handle going against faster guards like Paul, Rose, Rondo night in and night out? The current NBA rules are built for speed and quickness, something Rubio doesn't thrive in.
Rubio ran the point for the Spanish national team against in the Olympics and more than held his own against the US (Paul, Williams & Kidd). Admittedly, Kidd can't guard anyone decent anymore, but anyone who can perform as Rubio did at 18 is special.
Fighter of Foo
05-20-2009, 09:15 AM
Not saying the Griz shouldn't take him at #2, just saying I think he's going to have some growing pains in the NBA. He's not going to adjust as quickly as guys like Paul and Williams did. It's going to take him 4-5 years before he is at a high level while Thabeet can step in and give you 10 boards and a few blocks every night right off the bat.
To further the argument, I can get a stiff white guy to give me 10 boards and some blocks if I'm willing to play him 35 minutes a night.
whomario
05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
couldn't you see westbrook as a decent SG in that setup though? He might not be an All Star SG, but he'd at least be decent - particularly if you want to run an up-tempo mike d'antoni type offense and run and penetrate
Yeah, but for me heīs a prototypical 6th man. Plus imo you need a shooter other than your best player on the floor to prevent teams from packing it in. If you have a true PG and a 25 PPG (or whatever he so pleases) scorer + an athletic 4 with an SF skillset (Green) you really donīt need another ballhandler/scorer to start the game.
Iīm not saying he isnīt starting material. Just that with Rubio at PG i wouldnīt start him but look for a shooter and play him 30 minutes of the bench with 15 at PG and another 15 at SG when Durant or Green take a rest.
Gasol is a crappy rebounder and defender. Those are two things the Grizzlies desperately need. He's also probably better suited to play PF if they can get him to drop 30 pounds.
I like Rubio's game but I still don't think he's the sure thing a lot of you guys are making him out to be. He's only 18 and that's always a huge question mark. He's also not very quick or athletic compared to the premier point guards in the game. Sure that doesn't come into play much in the international game, but how does he handle going against faster guards like Paul, Rose, Rondo night in and night out? The current NBA rules are built for speed and quickness, something Rubio doesn't thrive in.
Not saying the Griz shouldn't take him at #2, just saying I think he's going to have some growing pains in the NBA. He's not going to adjust as quickly as guys like Paul and Williams did. It's going to take him 4-5 years before he is at a high level while Thabeet can step in and give you 10 boards and a few blocks every night right off the bat.
Gasol is not a crappy defender imo. Heīs not great and certainly not a great "presence" but he doesnīt make many mistakes, rotates well and works hard for position. Pretty much serviceable considering his offensive input.
Heīs not going to be able to play PF defensively.
They could of course allways trade Gasol. 7 footer that puts up that numbers with 2 years at a little over 3 mio will propably land you sth.
Although their salary structure sinīt ideal, only expiring they could send along is Milicic and then you have only Thabeet left at C. And Haddadi ... (although he didnīt look all that bad actually when he got some burn)
Nowaday most PGs canīt guard each other anyway with the new rules and mindset. See Celtics/Bulls. 2 great defensive PGs, neither remotely able to keep the other out of the lane by themselves.
Rubio is faster and quicker than people think as well, imo. But yeah, i donīt see him putting up 18/10 in year 1 either ;) Maybe either 30 minutes starter with like 10-12 points with 6 or 7 assists or coming off the bench to change the pace for 25 minutes a game.
Depends on the team a lot.
RainMaker
05-20-2009, 09:52 AM
Gasol is not a crappy defender imo. Heīs not great and certainly not a great "presence" but he doesnīt make many mistakes, rotates well and works hard for position. Pretty much serviceable considering his offensive input.
Heīs not going to be able to play PF defensively.
They could of course allways trade Gasol. 7 footer that puts up that numbers with 2 years at a little over 3 mio will propably land you sth.
Although their salary structure sinīt ideal, only expiring they could send along is Milicic and then you have only Thabeet left at C. And Haddadi ... (although he didnīt look all that bad actually when he got some burn)
I don't think he's a good defender at all. He doesn't have the speed to help out on players going to the hole and his shot blocking ability is a little below average. He is serviceable in the half court game but gets run on by fast centers. I still think the rebounding is a bigger issue though as the Grizzlies were last in the league in that category. They desperately need a guy who can give them big boards.
I think trading him would be stupid since his contact is really good. The only way they would do that is if they could unload a real bad contact on someone else with Gasol (do they even have a bad contract on the rosters?).
Nowaday most PGs canīt guard each other anyway with the new rules and mindset. See Celtics/Bulls. 2 great defensive PGs, neither remotely able to keep the other out of the lane by themselves.
Rubio is faster and quicker than people think as well, imo. But yeah, i donīt see him putting up 18/10 in year 1 either ;) Maybe either 30 minutes starter with like 10-12 points with 6 or 7 assists or coming off the bench to change the pace for 25 minutes a game.
Depends on the team a lot.
That's my point though. Rubio isn't a Rose/Rondo style PG who can't be guarded. He has a ton of other skills but is just not that quick compared to what we're seeing out of the elite PGs in the game. Conley also played real well down the stretch and may be worth keeping at the point.
whomario
05-20-2009, 11:19 AM
Yeah, but a lot of his deficits only are a problem because his teammates are piss poor defenders. Considering their athleticism it is an absolute joke what guys like Mayo and Gay offer defensively, even Conley should be much better. And they had like zero options at PF, Arthur isnīt as good as that good start made him out to be ...
Their only bad contract is Jaric, 7-7,5 mio and even that is only until 2011.
On offense Rubioīs quickness will be fine and heīll have more sucess there than in Europe due to the increased possibilities for Pick & Roll play. Kind of like Nash in that regard, of course minus the ability to hit pull ups like nobodyīs business when the defender goes under the screen.
Dude is a terrific Pick&Roll player and will thrive there without the grabbing and holding allowed and with the wider NBA court inside the 3 point line and less packing the lane (def 3 rule) .
mh2365
05-20-2009, 11:30 AM
Pacers have a good young team and I think they are in the position to just draft the best player regardless of position ... IMO that would be Terrance Williams if he is still on the board. With no guarantee that Dunleavy will recover from the knee problems T-Will can take the SG position or back up Rush and Granger. If they decide to go with a PG then I hope they take Flynn from Syracuse.
jbergey22
05-20-2009, 02:50 PM
This is the worst time of the year being a Twolve fan. They never move up during lottery night and than in a month we get to watch McHale blow the pick. Traded Brandon Roy 2 years ago and OJ Mayo, and Mario Chalmers 1 of which is a star, 1 of which will be a star and a nice piece. Atleast we came out of the draft with a deeper bench the past 2 years. Did I ever mention that Kevin McHale is the worst GM in the history of sports? It took Danny Ainge all of 1 year to find the right fit for KG while McHale wasnt able to do it in 13 years.
He should have held on to KG so there wasnt any solid proof of how clueless he really is.
mckerney
05-20-2009, 05:30 PM
This is the worst time of the year being a Twolve fan. They never move up during lottery night and than in a month we get to watch McHale blow the pick. Traded Brandon Roy 2 years ago and OJ Mayo, and Mario Chalmers 1 of which is a star, 1 of which will be a star and a nice piece. Atleast we came out of the draft with a deeper bench the past 2 years. Did I ever mention that Kevin McHale is the worst GM in the history of sports? It took Danny Ainge all of 1 year to find the right fit for KG while McHale wasnt able to do it in 13 years.
He should have held on to KG so there wasnt any solid proof of how clueless he really is.
Glen Taylor isn't helping either. After first saying it will be McHale's decision to come back as a coach, then saying whoever he hired at GM would have option to hire a new coach, now he's back to saying it's up to McHale. That paired with offering a lowball salary, and the insistence that the new GM be forced to keep Hoiberg around also it's not surprising Taylor has been turned down 3 times so far. Probably a few more times coming soon with a first time GM not wanting to be held back when trying to make over a lousy roster by having to hold onto a bad coach and bad front office assistants.
So even though McHale may not be making the pick this year I'll be surprised if they don't manage to epically screw this draft up again. Maybe it can even pass last years, "We were going to keep Mayo (yeah, right), but then once they offered to throw in Mike Miller, who could turn that down?" and the decision to build the team around 2 players who play the same position, share the same defensive weaknesses, and do little to compliment each other.
Eh, fuck it, at least we've got Tubby, Royce and Rodney for basketball in Minnesota. If the Gophers can land Barnes and the Wolves screw up this offseason and the Wolves may as well just leave town.
molson
05-20-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm counting on McHale to stick around so he can somehow spark the next Celtics championship contender.
RainMaker
05-20-2009, 05:55 PM
Curry to New York ---> reportedly heīs been given a promise weeks ago that the Knicks would take him, unless they would have moved in the Top3, to convince him to declare in the first place.
And yeah, the Pick makes sense. And now donīt be shocked if heīll actually run the Point as a starter. Imo even with the rising apreciation for his PG skills heīs still really underrated in that aspect. Remember me talking about Aaron Brooks not being able to play a lot of passes ? Imo Curry can do a whole lot of different and difficult passes. Had he played with a Top10 school i could have seen averaging 7,5+ assists with maybe 3 TOs max instead of 5,6/3,6.
I believe he'll go to New York because he fits their system and is good friends with Lebron. But I really don't think he's going to be a great NBA player. He's the 4th or 5th best PG in the draft and that is even a stretch considering he isn't really a true PG. He was a great college player but is going to struggle in the NBA. He's at best a late 1st rounder in my book.
whomario
05-20-2009, 06:27 PM
I believe he'll go to New York because he fits their system and is good friends with Lebron. But I really don't think he's going to be a great NBA player. He's the 4th or 5th best PG in the draft and that is even a stretch considering he isn't really a true PG. He was a great college player but is going to struggle in the NBA. He's at best a late 1st rounder in my book.
strongly disagree. Thatīs more or less a myth in my book. "True PG" is an awfully overused term. The guy can make every pass you have to be able to make as an NBA PG and then some more, he is a good ball handler, sees the floor very well and is more athletic than people give him credit for. People look at him shoot the ball a ton and think "oh, he canīt pass" when in fact he basically wasnīt "allowed" to pass on a team living and dying on his scoring. Again, put him on a big school and he still drops 20-24 points but also gets 8 assists a game. Heīs going to be just fine in the league.
I just donīt buy that "he isnīt a PG" when he showed heīs capable of executing every pass he needs on a team without reliable options next to him (Lovedale excluded propably)
But i guess weīll have to wait to see how it turns out ;)
RainMaker
05-20-2009, 06:40 PM
strongly disagree. Thatīs more or less a myth in my book. "True PG" is an awfully overused term. The guy can make every pass you have to be able to make as an NBA PG and then some more, he is a good ball handler, sees the floor very well and is more athletic than people give him credit for. People look at him shoot the ball a ton and think "oh, he canīt pass" when in fact he basically wasnīt "allowed" to pass on a team living and dying on his scoring. Again, put him on a big school and he still drops 20-24 points but also gets 8 assists a game. Heīs going to be just fine in the league.
I just donīt buy that "he isnīt a PG" when he showed heīs capable of executing every pass he needs on a team without reliable options next to him (Lovedale excluded propably)
But i guess weīll have to wait to see how it turns out ;)
He's still the 4th or 5th best PG in the draft. I'm sure he can make the pass, but that's not what's holding him back. The other guys are just better.
Groundhog
05-20-2009, 06:54 PM
Rubio ran the point for the Spanish national team against in the Olympics and more than held his own against the US (Paul, Williams & Kidd). Admittedly, Kidd can't guard anyone decent anymore, but anyone who can perform as Rubio did at 18 is special.
This is why I'm very keen to see how Patty Mills does in the NBA. He made Chris Paul and Deron Williams seem SLOW at the Olympics - CP3 in particular. I think his game is better suited to the NBA than the NCAAs, but I do wonder about his playmaking abilities. I think he could be, at worst, Aaron Brooks, but his upside is higher.
Groundhog
05-20-2009, 07:01 PM
Pacers have a good young team and I think they are in the position to just draft the best player regardless of position ... IMO that would be Terrance Williams if he is still on the board. With no guarantee that Dunleavy will recover from the knee problems T-Will can take the SG position or back up Rush and Granger. If they decide to go with a PG then I hope they take Flynn from Syracuse.
Pacers should go PG or PF, but I think the PGs that will be around where they pick will be better value than the PFs. Worst thing they could do is pick Mullens.
stevew
06-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Congrats to the Lakers.
stevew
06-15-2009, 01:54 PM
dola-
Unless there is some sort of gag-order on coaching movement throughout the NBA Finals, I'd assume Mike Brown will not be fired.
Which is pathetic.
TheOhioStateUniversity
06-15-2009, 01:55 PM
You really feel he should be fired? I'd be interested to hear why.
stevew
06-15-2009, 02:08 PM
You really feel he should be fired? I'd be interested to hear why.
I guess you haven't watched his coaching decisions for the last 4 seasons?
Do we even need to spell this out, I mean, are you the only fellow Cavs fan that actually thinks he doesn't need to be gone after the playoffs this year?
Samdari
06-15-2009, 02:42 PM
I guess you haven't watched his coaching decisions for the last 4 seasons?
Do we even need to spell this out, I mean, are you the only fellow Cavs fan that actually thinks he doesn't need to be gone after the playoffs this year?
I am stunned that the expectations for Cavs fans can be higher than Eastern conference finals.
You do realize that there is exactly one above average NBA starter on that team, right? And that not even the likes of Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain, nor even the exalted Kobe Bryant won titles when they had that caliber of talent around them.
This is as far as teams with one great player go. To expect more is to not understand the NBA.
miami_fan
06-15-2009, 05:04 PM
I think when you compare the coaching jobs of Mike Brown and SVG to some of the other coaches in the playoffs, those two really get exposed. For example, I truly believe that if the Cavs were coached by Rick Adelman, they would have been in the Finals instead of the Magic. While I don't think the Magic would have beaten with Adelman as their coach, I do think the series would still be going on. Take a look at the list of coaches in this playoffs. I would take eight coaches before I chose SVG or Brown. Considering that four of the others are first year head coaches and a fifth is named Mike Woodson, the quality of their coaching skills leave a lot to be desired.
If the Cavs feels that they have to win a title or Lebron is going to leave, then they can not afford to be outcoached. They are in a win now situation. They can't wait for Mike Brown to grow into a good to great coach.
Van Gundy is a different situation. He reminds me a lot of Ozzie Guillen of the White Sox. I think he may have blown the one shot he had of taking the Magic to a title.
RainMaker
06-15-2009, 05:36 PM
I don't get the negativity toward SVG. Sure he made some bad moves when put under a microscope. He also took an above average team to the finals and exposed the best team in the regular season. They got beat in the Finals but the Lakers were just a better team.
JohnnyBGood
06-15-2009, 05:52 PM
This is why the NBA is such a joke to me. SVG takes his team to the FINALS and he is on the hot seat? A team that most people wouldn't have expected to be in the finals at the beginning of the season. Weren't Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson mediocre starters/fringe players a few years ago? The turnover for coaches and the expectations placed upon them are so absurd, most of them are better off never accepting a head coaching position, and building something in the college ranks. You seemingly get one season, sometimes half a season to take a group of selfish, self-absorbed players and make them play together. NBA has become so out of touch that it is becoming more and more irrelevant to a lot of people. Wish it was the early-mid nineties again for the NBA.
miami_fan
06-15-2009, 06:00 PM
I don't get the negativity toward SVG. Sure he made some bad moves when put under a microscope. He also took an above average team to the finals and exposed the best team in the regular season. They got beat in the Finals but the Lakers were just a better team.
I can't comment on the Finals since I have been in Germany for the last two weeks(Telekom Baskets is up 1-0 after winning game one of the best of five Basketball Bundesliga Finals against EWE Baskets). I just don't think he did a quality coaching job overall in this playoffs. Game 6 against the Sixers was his best game IMO. He was fortunate that his mistakes were not exposed due to inept coaching on the opposite bench and that his team had more talent than the team they were facing.
miami_fan
06-15-2009, 06:15 PM
This is why the NBA is such a joke to me. SVG takes his team to the FINALS and he is on the hot seat? A team that most people wouldn't have expected to be in the finals at the beginning of the season. Weren't Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson mediocre starters/fringe players a few years ago? The turnover for coaches and the expectations placed upon them are so absurd, most of them are better off never accepting a head coaching position, and building something in the college ranks. You seemingly get one season, sometimes half a season to take a group of selfish, self-absorbed players and make them play together. NBA has become so out of touch that it is becoming more and more irrelevant to a lot of people. Wish it was the early-mid nineties again for the NBA.
You mean 1992 when Mike Dunleavy Sr was slightly pushed to taking the job with the Bucks after leading the Lakers to the FINALS the previous year and getting them to the playoffs the next year despite losing Magic Johnson right before the 91-92 season due to his HIV announcement?
TheOhioStateUniversity
06-15-2009, 08:01 PM
I guess you haven't watched his coaching decisions for the last 4 seasons?
Do we even need to spell this out, I mean, are you the only fellow Cavs fan that actually thinks he doesn't need to be gone after the playoffs this year?
I love the way you articulated your position but did you notice that you didn't answer my question in your attempt to insult my intelligence? At any rate I think calling for Mike Brown's head is premature. Yes the season ended in disappointment, but to call that team loaded is an overstatement. In addition, Mike Brown seems to have good rapport with LeBron and as long as LeBron is still on board and Danny Ferry can make a major move in the offseason; I think the Cavs will be ready to take the final step next year.
Balldog
06-15-2009, 08:42 PM
It was Mike Brown's fault that everyone not named LeBron took the series off. He told Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Ilgauskus to throw up a bunch of bricks.
Duh.
RainMaker
06-15-2009, 09:25 PM
It is his fault for not doing what the Lakers did and just force the Magic to beat them from the free throw line.
stevew
06-15-2009, 09:28 PM
Didn't mean to be dickish
He has shown no ability to make adjustments at halftime
They get killed in the 3rd quarter of big games.
He still has no offensive system in place.
His player assortments are often very questionable. I know the roster sucks but Andy and Ben from last year was bad.
His team blew several 20 point leads to Orlando
They don't play uptempo enough. Though the players they have would seemingly thrive in that type of environment
He got outcoached by SVG. That's laughable.
They got embarrased by 2009 Dwight Howard. 2011 Dwight Howard I could see. But he's not there yet.
You can't fire the players. In pro sports someone needs to take the fall for a debacle.
I could probably come up with several other reasons, but to keep it short, keeping around a mediocre at best head coach is not going to win a title.
digamma
06-15-2009, 09:32 PM
Back to the topic at hand, Gani Lawal pulled out of the draft and will return to Georgia Tech for his junior season.
Chief Rum
06-15-2009, 09:41 PM
You mean 1992 when Mike Dunleavy Sr was slightly pushed to taking the job with the Bucks after leading the Lakers to the FINALS the previous year and getting them to the playoffs the next year despite losing Magic Johnson right before the 91-92 season due to his HIV announcement?
Dunleavy sucks.
(Time don't change that)
stevew
06-15-2009, 09:49 PM
Maybe ferry is as much or more at fault. I've had a blind hatred of him since they traded my favorite player for him when I was a kid. So I tend to be way too nice to his decisions because I feel I'm overly biased against him otherwise
Chief Rum
06-15-2009, 10:12 PM
Maybe ferry is as much or more at fault. I've had a blind hatred of him since they traded my favorite player for him when I was a kid. So I tend to be way too nice to his decisions because I feel I'm overly biased against him otherwise
How funny. My hatred of all things Danny Ferry goes back to Duke, but the way he played out his brief day or so with the Clips, or whatever it was, I'll hate him forever for that alone. And yet that was a good trade for us. ;)
stevew
06-15-2009, 10:45 PM
The best explanation I heard for that trade was that Harper was supposedly surrounded by some very shady people and they were afraid of an embarrassing incident and/or perhaps he was a coke head. It is very hard to find too much insider type info from the pre internet era.
RainMaker
06-15-2009, 11:55 PM
It feels like a lot of underclassmen fringe 1st rounders are sticking with the draft. Mills is coming out and while I like his game, it's such a deep draft for point guards that he would benefit from another year in college. Elonu from A&M is staying in the draft and I'm hoping he got a guarantee from a team for the 2nd round. Daye is staying and is a mid first rounder who has potential to drop if things don't go his way on draft day. Meeks is maybe a mid 2nd rounder.
There are a slew of others too. I just don't remember a draft that had this many underclassmen who should have stayed in college.
Chief Rum
06-16-2009, 12:01 AM
The best explanation I heard for that trade was that Harper was supposedly surrounded by some very shady people and they were afraid of an embarrassing incident and/or perhaps he was a coke head. It is very hard to find too much insider type info from the pre internet era.
Yeah, I always sorta wondered why the Clips were able to get an athletic wing guard (back then, Harper had some terrific hops and good quicks) for a guy like Ferry, but I had been confused for years by all the mad Duke love in the NCAA, so what did I know?
It's too bad Harper hurt his knee about a year in (IIRC). He was an exciting addition to a team that had Danny Manning, Charles Smith, Kenny Norman and Gary Grant. Okay, and Benoit Benjamin (cringes). With Larry Brown coaching.
Chief Rum
06-16-2009, 12:03 AM
Hey steve, it was probably something even more shady, like they had a thing against basketball players with lisps.
stevew
06-16-2009, 12:11 AM
Anyways, they broke my freakin hart.
JeeberD
06-16-2009, 01:03 AM
I am stunned that the expectations for Cavs fans can be higher than Eastern conference finals.
You do realize that there is exactly one above average NBA starter on that team, right? And that not even the likes of Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain, nor even the exalted Kobe Bryant won titles when they had that caliber of talent around them.
This is as far as teams with one great player go. To expect more is to not understand the NBA.
Hakeem did, though... :)
Groundhog
06-16-2009, 01:15 AM
It feels like a lot of underclassmen fringe 1st rounders are sticking with the draft. Mills is coming out and while I like his game, it's such a deep draft for point guards that he would benefit from another year in college.
Mills would be a lottery selection next draft, I'm very surprised he stuck in the draft. He'd have to be awful confident he's going 1st round.
Daye is staying and is a mid first rounder who has potential to drop if things don't go his way on draft day.
Based on what I saw of him in college, I'll be absolutely shocked if Daye ever develops in to a worthy rotation player.
Meeks is maybe a mid 2nd rounder.
Dumb.
There are a slew of others too. I just don't remember a draft that had this many underclassmen who should have stayed in college.
To be fair, outside of the PG position, a lot of guys returned to school as well that would have been likely late-lottery picks this year.
RainMaker
06-16-2009, 03:04 AM
I just hope those guys are getting guarantees. Mills for example could easily put himself in line to be a top 10 or even top 5 pick next year. Daye has the potential to be a good player, but really needs a ton of refinement and some strength. He'd be a huge project for a team.
I guess I don't see the advantage of going pro if you aren't a first rounder. You don't get a guaranteed deal and you'll probably end up in the NBDL. Another year in college and some big time TV exposure means a good chance you move up in the draft.
It seems the current NBA isn't as patient with "projects" as they used to be. If you aren't showing big improvement in a year or two, you're just a 11th or 12th man for life. Makes me wonder if guys like Patrick O'Bryant had stayed in school and gotten the experience of playing 35 minutes a night along with some good coaching, they would be starters in the NBA right now and not lifelong 12th men.
Samdari
06-16-2009, 09:26 AM
I guess you haven't watched his coaching decisions for the last 4 seasons?
Do we even need to spell this out, I mean, are you the only fellow Cavs fan that actually thinks he doesn't need to be gone after the playoffs this year?
What decisions could he have made that would turn out better than best record in the league and conference finals?
HE HAS ONE GOOD PLAYER.
Put LeBron in: Good Move.
Take LeBron out: Bad Move.
What other "good coaching" moves are available to the guy. Compared to where some alltime NBA greats got with one man teams, this Cavs team has overachieved.
I get that they have one more year to try to win the title. LeBron needs help, and in the form of someone who can shoot, pass, rebound or defend. Changing the guy with the clipboard is not going to do it.
Mizzou B-ball fan
06-16-2009, 09:29 AM
I'm excited to watch the draft this year. Both DeMarre Carroll and Leo Lyons have a good chance of being drafted. I'm pretty sure Mizzou has never had two players drafted in the same year. Early 80s would likely be the only time it might have happened with Stipanovich and Sundvold.
sterlingice
06-16-2009, 09:35 AM
Hakeem did, though... :)
At least in 1994, to be sure
SI
sterlingice
06-16-2009, 09:37 AM
It feels like a lot of underclassmen fringe 1st rounders are sticking with the draft.
...
There are a slew of others too. I just don't remember a draft that had this many underclassmen who should have stayed in college.
Well, it's a gamble but it's a notoriously weak class. Some guys who are coming out now and have a chance at being a 1st rounder next year may not even be drafted or at least not until the 2nd round. It seems like a reasonable gamble because at least being a 1st round player you have a shot at sticking because you're a 1st round pick and you get guaranteed cash.
SI
Samdari
06-16-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm excited to watch the draft this year. Both DeMarre Carroll and Leo Lyons have a good chance of being drafted. I'm pretty sure Mizzou has never had two players drafted in the same year. Early 80s would likely be the only time it might have happened with Stipanovich and Sundvold.
Those are the only two first rounders, but surely you mean drafted together at all, as Lyons has zero shot at the first round.
wade moore
06-16-2009, 09:53 AM
I'm curious to see where VCU's Eric Maynor goes. I insisted midway through the season to a bunch of VCU fans that there is NO way he's a first round guy, but it appears that this class is so weak that he just might be.
Mizzou B-ball fan
06-16-2009, 09:56 AM
Those are the only two first rounders, but surely you mean drafted together at all, as Lyons has zero shot at the first round.
Right. I was talking about the draft in general, not solely the first round. I think Carroll is a borderline 1st round selection depending on what teams are looking for. As you mention, Lyons will be a late second rounder most likely, though he could go undrafted.
I'm not a huge NBA fan. Is the NBA draft somewhat like the NFL in that there is some advantage to being undrafted and being able to pick your team as opposed to being drafted late and being stuck with that team? I get that impression, but wasn't sure. I know the 1st round gets guaranteed money, so that's obviously a big advantage for them.
Logan
06-16-2009, 09:58 AM
I think guys have seen a lot of 2nd round picks come into the league and do well, reaching free agency after 2 years (or at least restricted status - not 100% sure how it works) and getting nice deals. The mindset surely is if you think you're good enough where you'll be a 1st round pick next year, that means I'm good enough to go this year and contribute.
Arles
06-16-2009, 10:22 AM
Mills would be a lottery selection next draft, I'm very surprised he stuck in the draft. He'd have to be awful confident he's going 1st round.
Earliest I've seen Mills go is 34 to Denver and the current NBADraft.net projection has him at 37 to San Antonio. This may be the worst decision by any player in the draft.
On the positive side, Nic Wise is coming back to Arizona giving the Cats a very good chance at a top 4-5 finish in the Pac-10 (something unthinkable two months ago).
Easy Mac
06-16-2009, 11:15 AM
If Stephen Curry were white, he would be called JJ Redick v 2.0. He is the exact same player, minus the college.
JohnnyBGood
06-16-2009, 11:21 AM
If Stephen Curry were white, he would be called JJ Redick v 2.0. He is the exact same player, minus the college.
Uhh, totally different players. Redick was no where near the ball-handler, natural passer or even pull-up midrange shooter that Curry is. Redick had no where near the ability to make the players around him better that Curry does. Curry can finish off his drives, Redick never really showed he could. Redick was a shooter, Curry is a basketball player with a great jump shot. Then again, I think Curry is going to have a pretty good NBA career and it seems I'm in the minority on that here.
Arles
06-16-2009, 06:19 PM
The biggest problem I have with Curry is that he's not a true point and can't defend NBA SG. So, either he pairs up initially with a Jason Kidd sized PG or you are extremely limited defensively. If he can become a natural point, I think he could be a nice player - but that looks doubtful right now.
To me, he's a poor man's Leandro Barbosa and I'm not sure that's worth a top 10 pick.
Easy Mac
06-16-2009, 06:44 PM
Uhh, totally different players. Redick was no where near the ball-handler, natural passer or even pull-up midrange shooter that Curry is. Redick had no where near the ability to make the players around him better that Curry does. Curry can finish off his drives, Redick never really showed he could. Redick was a shooter, Curry is a basketball player with a great jump shot. Then again, I think Curry is going to have a pretty good NBA career and it seems I'm in the minority on that here.
Did you even watch Duke basketball while Redick was there? He drove to the lane all the time and was suprisingly effective off the dribble.
BishopMVP
06-16-2009, 06:58 PM
The biggest problem I have with Curry is that he's not a true point and can't defend NBA SG. So, either he pairs up initially with a Jason Kidd sized PG or you are extremely limited defensively. If he can become a natural point, I think he could be a nice player - but that looks doubtful right now.
To me, he's a poor man's Leandro Barbosa and I'm not sure that's worth a top 10 pick.I'm not sure I see a better fit for D'Antoni's offense in the draft. Certainly fantasy-wise, he'll be one of the 2 best players next year if he goes to NY.
In other PG news, Brandon Jennings is a g."Yeah, I think I'm a better player than he is. I just shoot the ball better than he can. I think the dude is just all hype. I can't even front. I'm just going to be real with you guys."I don't know if he's ever going to fit in or excel in the NBA, but I really wish he was at Arizona last year - just ask Derrick Rose how it's done - and it would have made that team 10x more exciting.
Also, for the 4th time in as many seasons, UMass has a player with a chance to 2nd round. Tony Gaffney is a 6'8 high-energy player who could find a role as a clean-cut Birdman. It would be an awesome story because he was 6'0 before his senior year of HS and only got minor minutes at BU before transferring to UMass after his sophomore year. He was so lightly regarded that he wasn't even given a scholarship and played intramurals that year and people were openly questioning why he was given a scholarship the next year (last year). Then this year he averaged 10 rebounds, 4 blocks and 2 steals a game as our only legit post presence. I'm not sure he's better than Stephane Lasme, who got some NBA playing time and is now doing well in Europe, but he does have a better shot and handle, so maybe he can stick in the right situation.
JohnnyBGood
06-16-2009, 07:51 PM
Did you even watch Duke basketball while Redick was there? He drove to the lane all the time and was suprisingly effective off the dribble.
Yes. He was more effective off the dribble his senior season, but he camped on the three point line his first 3 years. Did you even watch Curry these past 2 seasons? Him and Redick are not comparable at all.
Atocep
06-16-2009, 09:16 PM
The biggest problem I have with Curry is that he's not a true point and can't defend NBA SG. So, either he pairs up initially with a Jason Kidd sized PG or you are extremely limited defensively. If he can become a natural point, I think he could be a nice player - but that looks doubtful right now.
To me, he's a poor man's Leandro Barbosa and I'm not sure that's worth a top 10 pick.
Is there much of a difference between what Juan Dixon was coming out of Maryland and what Curry is now?
Arles
06-16-2009, 10:21 PM
I'm not sure I see a better fit for D'Antoni's offense in the draft. Certainly fantasy-wise, he'll be one of the 2 best players next year if he goes to NY.
He certainly won't have to play any defense ;) Like I said, he's a nice Barbosa-lite and would be a decent fit in NY. I just don't know that I would use a top 10 pick on him.
Is there much of a difference between what Juan Dixon was coming out of Maryland and what Curry is now?
I wouldn't want to spend a top 10 pick on Dixon either. I think Dixon went around 17-20 and that's about where Curry should go, IMO (maybe even 15-20). I think Curry will be better than Dixon, but that isn't a terrible comparison.
stevew
06-16-2009, 10:36 PM
I bet quite a few 2nd rounders make it this year. There's less and less awful bench player deals than in the past. With the lux tax and general lack of monies it will be easier to keep rookies than signing an LLE guy.
I would think the Cavs will attempt to stash a guy in Europe.
BishopMVP
06-17-2009, 12:40 AM
He certainly won't have to play any defense ;) Like I said, he's a nice Barbosa-lite and would be a decent fit in NY. I just don't know that I would use a top 10 pick on him.
I wouldn't want to spend a top 10 pick on Dixon either. I think Dixon went around 17-20 and that's about where Curry should go, IMO (maybe even 15-20). I think Curry will be better than Dixon, but that isn't a terrible comparison.Juan Dixon went 17th and was better than at least 7 players drafted ahead of him 2002 NBA Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NBA_Draft) . While Curry may not have the potential of a Jrue Holiday or Earl Clark, he's also about as close to being a sure thing rotation/niche player on a championship-caliber team you're gonna get beyond Blake Griffin. Minimum, he's JJ Redick - who just played a role on an NBA finals team - and if he can master PG he can be an all-star. I think he can, others disagree, but that still leaves a great shooting 2-guard.
stevew
06-17-2009, 12:49 AM
I'd say Hersey Hawkins might be a better comparison for Curry?
Similar tweener size, can put the ball in the net(major scorer in college). Never was a true star star, but averaged over 20 a couple times.
Hersey Hawkins Statistics - Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hawkihe01.html)
I don't think Curry will play nearly as much defense, Hawkins averaged about 2 steals a game. Curry will probably be a better three point shooter.
Big Fo
06-17-2009, 01:04 AM
Orlando's president has come out and said that the team will be willing to pay the luxury tax in order to keep Turkoglu.
The Spanish press is saying today that Oklahoma has hired the most prestigious Spanish Lawyers firm to investigate about Ricky Rubio's release clause and incoming lawsuit. Rubio has filled a lawsuit versus his actual team to lower his release clause.
He signed a contract for a $100k yearly payment and a $5.5Million release clause that he must pay to end his contract early.
There are precedents of other sport men winning similar lawsuits as even if they agree and sign a contract like that, the huge difference between the salary and the release clause makes it illegal, and usually the judge lowers that release clause to something more fair (that should be around $3M).
Oklahoma seems really interested on him at #3 and that is why they want to know everything about the Spanish laws to avoid any future problem.
Dola, taking a look at draftexpress... i think they didn't take the best pic from Griffin for their article...
http://content.draftexpress.com/gallery/BlakeGriffin/1238185594.jpg
BishopMVP
06-17-2009, 09:07 AM
The Spanish press is saying today that Oklahoma has hired the most prestigious Spanish Lawyers firm to investigate about Ricky Rubio's release clause and incoming lawsuit. Rubio has filled a lawsuit versus his actual team to lower his release clause.
He signed a contract for a $100k yearly payment and a $5.5Million release clause that he must pay to end his contract early.
Didn't his buyout get raised during the past season too? If he thought he was going to declare for the NBA, why would he have signed any new contract?
MikeVic
06-17-2009, 09:17 AM
I like Curry for whatever reason, and will be following his NBA career. Wishing the best for him. I don't know how good or bad of a pro he'll be though.
Mizzou B-ball fan
06-17-2009, 09:34 AM
Dola, taking a look at draftexpress... i think they didn't take the best pic from Griffin for their article...
http://content.draftexpress.com/gallery/BlakeGriffin/1238185594.jpg
Agreed. I think these probably a bit more appropriate. He looks pretty imposing in this one........
http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/blake-griffin-girl.jpg
This one shows off his agility..........
http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/blake-griffin-frolicking.jpg
And this one shows that he's a good team player........
http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/blake-griffin-girl-hug.jpg
Arles
06-17-2009, 11:08 AM
Juan Dixon went 17th and was better than at least 7 players drafted ahead of him 2002 NBA Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NBA_Draft) . While Curry may not have the potential of a Jrue Holiday or Earl Clark, he's also about as close to being a sure thing rotation/niche player on a championship-caliber team you're gonna get beyond Blake Griffin. Minimum, he's JJ Redick - who just played a role on an NBA finals team - and if he can master PG he can be an all-star. I think he can, others disagree, but that still leaves a great shooting 2-guard.
Drafting a 6-2 non-PG with limited upside isn't a good value recipe for a top 10 pick. In his 7-year career, by far Dixon's best season was a 12.3 PPG, 2.0 APG, 43% FG (38% 3) effort in Portland. For his career, he's a 41% FG shooter (34% 3).
The fact that he's better than Euro washouts Jiri Welsch and Nikoloz Tskitishvili doesn't mean he was a great pick. At 17, he was fine, but if Dixon would have gone 9 it would have been a terrible pick.
I think Curry could be a nice Dixon/Reddick type in the pros, but those guys usually go in the 20s - not 9th overall.
I would rather take a shot on a player with the potential to be great like Jonny Flynn, DeMar DeRozan or Earl Clark in the top 10 instead of taking a guy who is basically Eddie House if things go well.
Groundhog
06-17-2009, 06:35 PM
Is there any way that Jrue Holiday gets top-10 pick consideration if not for the success of Russell Westbrook last season?
DeToxRox
06-17-2009, 06:42 PM
So apparently the Pistons promised Ben Gordon 11 million a year. There's always been a rumor that Joe D loves Gordon. If he signs him, and at 11 mil per no less, I'll slit my eyes out.
The other rumor is then Rip would be traded for the Wizards for #5.
Another rumor is Amir Johnson and #15 for David Lee or Paul Millsap.
Of the three options, I'd love getting D-Lee or Millsap, but knowing Joe D we'll get Gordon.
Schmidty
06-17-2009, 06:47 PM
So apparently the Pistons promised Ben Gordon 11 million a year. There's always been a rumor that Joe D loves Gordon. If he signs him, and at 11 mil per no less, I'll slit my eyes out.
The other rumor is then Rip would be traded for the Wizards for #5.
Another rumor is Amir Johnson and #15 for David Lee or Paul Millsap.
Of the three options, I'd love getting D-Lee or Millsap, but knowing Joe D we'll get Gordon.
What's up with Joe D going from the best exec (or one of them) in the game, to being very questionable. Was a lot of his success luck?
DeToxRox
06-17-2009, 06:56 PM
What's up with Joe D going from the best exec (or one of them) in the game, to being very questionable. Was a lot of his success luck?
Honestly, yes.
He lucked into Ben Wallace. He want John Amachi but Orlando wasn't going to give him up.
He made some good deals getting Rip and Sheed, and Stuckey was a solid pick. Tayshaun was a good pick too but he has become exposed by his lack of aggressiveness offensively and on defense he isn't the elite defender he was thought to be now that Ben isn't there.
I liked the Chauncey deal and stand by we wouldn't have done much with him this year with him, but it seems like there is no plan in place since we got rid of him. I mean seriously, if we sign Gordon we're going to have Stuck at the Point again. He cannot be a PG in the NBA. At least not on a championship team.
And now, our best player, Rip, might be out the door for a pick so we can sign Ben Gordon. If that happens, Joe D really needs to seen that leash shorten because it'll look like another destructive move.
He won't rebuild the right way. He just thinks he can keep putting band aids on and it's catching up to him.
stevew
06-17-2009, 07:07 PM
McFail out in Minnesota. Hopefully he never gets a job with any authority again. He should basically be a roving big man instructor. Dwight Howard would be wise to spend the summer with him.
RainMaker
06-17-2009, 07:29 PM
So apparently the Pistons promised Ben Gordon 11 million a year. There's always been a rumor that Joe D loves Gordon. If he signs him, and at 11 mil per no less, I'll slit my eyes out.
The other rumor is then Rip would be traded for the Wizards for #5.
Another rumor is Amir Johnson and #15 for David Lee or Paul Millsap.
Of the three options, I'd love getting D-Lee or Millsap, but knowing Joe D we'll get Gordon.
That's a lot of cash for Gordon. Maybe he's assuming he doesn't have a shot at LBJ, Wade, and Bosh and is going to focus on the next tier.
Groundhog
06-17-2009, 07:42 PM
Ben Gordon should never be your #1 option on offense.
Young Drachma
06-17-2009, 07:49 PM
Curry also has the advantage of having had a father who had a decent NBA career.
If Delonte West can manage to scratch out a decent NBA career on a winning team, I think Stephen Curry will be better than that. I just think he's got the pedigree that makes him the kind of kid that will excel.
He'll probably go too high, but...he's no Adam Morrison.
RainMaker
06-17-2009, 07:50 PM
I still think he'd make a great addition to the Cavs. He'd get a ton of open looks and be able to give Lebron breathers and still leave a scoring option on the floor for the Cavs.
They could then trade Delonte West (who teams have interest in) alongside some expiring deals for some athleticism inside.
The Cavs need to play like this is their last year with Lebron. I think if they had won the title this year, Lebron bolts in 2010. But I think winning the title next year makes it much tougher for him to leave.
RainMaker
06-17-2009, 07:52 PM
Curry also has the advantage of having had a father who had a decent NBA career.
If Delonte West can manage to scratch out a decent NBA career on a winning team, I think Stephen Curry will be better than that. I just think he's got the pedigree that makes him the kind of kid that will excel.
He'll probably go too high, but...he's no Adam Morrison.
I think Curry has the potential to be a good NBA player. Definitely a first rounder. I think the issue I have with him is that he's maybe the 5th best PG in the draft. He's a great pick in the teens, but top 10 is a big stretch considering the talent pool.
Groundhog
06-17-2009, 08:18 PM
I think Curry has the potential to be a good NBA player. Definitely a first rounder. I think the issue I have with him is that he's maybe the 5th best PG in the draft. He's a great pick in the teens, but top 10 is a big stretch considering the talent pool.
The problem is, in this draft, 5th best PG means 8th best player in the draft. :D
MrBug708
06-18-2009, 12:02 AM
Is there any way that Jrue Holiday gets top-10 pick consideration if not for the success of Russell Westbrook last season?
Sure. Jrue Holiday probably would have been drafted ahead of Westbrook after his senior year of HS
Groundhog
06-18-2009, 01:20 AM
Sure. Jrue Holiday probably would have been drafted ahead of Westbrook after his senior year of HS
No question, if he'd come straight out of high school he'd have been selected. But based on what was seen of him at UCLA? It may not have been a system that played to his strengths, but I didn't see any reason to select him so high in a draft with so many talented PGs.
Ronnie Dobbs2
06-18-2009, 07:25 AM
Saw this rumor on ESPN today. Am I the only one who thinks this would make no sense at all? I thought McHale was leaving?
An NBA executive told The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2009/06/jefferson_on_mo.html) Wednesday that the Minnesota Timberwolves (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=min) are working on a deal that would send Al Jefferson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2389) and the No. 6 pick in next week's NBA Draft to the Phoenix Suns (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=pho) for Amare Stoudemire (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1727).
Logan
06-18-2009, 07:29 AM
No chance. I would think Phoenix would be the one sending picks.
Samdari
06-18-2009, 07:35 AM
Curry also has the advantage of having had a father who had a decent NBA career.
If Delonte West can manage to scratch out a decent NBA career on a winning team, I think Stephen Curry will be better than that. I just think he's got the pedigree that makes him the kind of kid that will excel.
He'll probably go too high, but...he's no Adam Morrison.
You're probably right, he's closer to Delonte West than Adam Morrison.
But, knowing what we know about West, do you spend a top 8 pick to get that?
Arles
06-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Suns fans would load up the Winnebago and drive Amare to Minnesota to land that deal. Zero chance it happens, I can't see Minnesota even considering it (esp with McHale gone).
albionmoonlight
06-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Agreed. Unless they cut off Jefferson's leg when doing his ACL surgery and have not told anyone yet, that trade makes no sense at all for Minnesota.
albionmoonlight
06-18-2009, 10:18 AM
dola:
Though if I were Phoenix, I'd be willing to take .75 on the dollar for Amare right now if I could find a buyer. I just have a feeling that his value will continue to sink. With all due respect to Dennis Green, he's not who we thought he was a couple of seasons ago.
MrBug708
06-18-2009, 10:25 AM
No question, if he'd come straight out of high school he'd have been selected. But based on what was seen of him at UCLA? It may not have been a system that played to his strengths, but I didn't see any reason to select him so high in a draft with so many talented PGs.
Because he's talented. Ben Howland didn't play him at PG this past year because it wasn't conducive to the team winning as many games as possible. It might be in the same boat as Westbrook in terms of a player not being allowed to do what he can do on the court because of the coach, but not because he just happens to play at UCLA at off-guard. Westbrook has incredible athleticism. Jrue Holiday has "excellent court vision" and "natural feel for the game"
And the last thing a player ever wants to be known as is a "system player"
Arles
06-18-2009, 11:13 AM
dola:
Though if I were Phoenix, I'd be willing to take .75 on the dollar for Amare right now if I could find a buyer. I just have a feeling that his value will continue to sink. With all due respect to Dennis Green, he's not who we thought he was a couple of seasons ago.
I agree, but it's simply because of the contract situation. Like with bosh, Amare could very well bolt after the season and unless Phoenix wants to commit a ton of cash to him, it's better to get 70-80 cents on the dollar now instead of losing him in the offseason.
Neon_Chaos
06-22-2009, 08:26 AM
Is Brandon Jennings considered as damaged goods after a not-so-impressive stint in Europe, or is he going to be a pleasant surprise to whoever picks him late in the 1st round?
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DaddyTorgo
06-22-2009, 08:35 AM
some talk that BC's own Tyrese Rice has had some stellar workouts and convinced teams that he can run the point okay in the NBA and he may be somewhat of a surprise late first-round pick now.
(or so my brother says - he's on top of this shit...idk where he got the info from)
Fighter of Foo
06-22-2009, 08:38 AM
Is Brandon Jennings considered as damaged goods after a not-so-impressive stint in Europe, or is he going to be a pleasant surprise to whoever picks him late in the 1st round?
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He's going to go mid first round and an 18 year old American holding his own in Europe is plenty good enough. I'm very unsure as how how his career will turn out, but he is definitely not rated any lower than he was 12 months ago.
Samdari
06-22-2009, 09:48 AM
Is Brandon Jennings considered as damaged goods after a not-so-impressive stint in Europe, or is he going to be a pleasant surprise to whoever picks him late in the 1st round?
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He's a sure thing for the lottery.
RainMaker
06-22-2009, 10:41 AM
There have been rumors here in Chicago that the Bulls may trade both their first round picks to move up to the 9-12 range. Seems they are really interested in Gerald Henderson who to me is one of the most underated players in this draft.
In personal offseason news, next year will be the first year that my season tickets will be in the 100 level. Taken about 5 years and a massive recession, but no more nosebleeds for me.
RomaGoth
06-23-2009, 01:17 PM
I guess the Spurs really enjoy winning. Nice move IMHO.
Source: Spurs acquire Jefferson for 3 players - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4281291)
DaddyTorgo
06-23-2009, 01:24 PM
richard jefferson? does he have anything left?
Arles
06-23-2009, 01:24 PM
I guess the Spurs really enjoy winning. Nice move IMHO.
Source: Spurs acquire Jefferson for 3 players - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4281291)
I'm guessing the Bucks will release Bowen and Oberto - meaning they may end up coming back to the Spurs by midseason. So, the deal will probably end up being the corpse of Kurt Thomas for Richard Jefferson. Fantastic deal for the Spurs and a nice move in terms of value/potential. The top teams in the league (Spurs, Lakers, ...) have certainly learned how to make a mockery of this current NBA trading system. But, Kudos to them for taking advantage of the situation. I would expect more dumps over the next few months as teams deal with the current financial crisis.
Ajaxab
06-23-2009, 01:25 PM
I guess the Spurs really enjoy winning. Nice move IMHO.
Source: Spurs acquire Jefferson for 3 players - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4281291)
Definitely a good move for SA. Bowen and Oberto got limited minutes this season. Thomas was an adequate defender, but for all intents and purposes was the guy who used up fouls. The Spurs needed an upgrade at the 3 and they got it. I don't know if it gets them to the Lakers' level, but they weren't going anywhere with what they had. If the team stays healthy, they've got a better shot today than they did yesterday.
RomaGoth
06-23-2009, 01:26 PM
richard jefferson? does he have anything left?
He only just turned 29...
Gary Gorski
06-23-2009, 01:36 PM
Big pickup for the Spurs - Parker, Manu, RJeff, Gooden and Duncan is a formidable lineup.
I hope the Bucks did this to resign Sessions and/or Charlie V. If they did this as a dump for the 2010 free agents then uh..well I would compare them to Memphis but at least Memphis got Marc Gasol and 2 1st round picks when they gave Pau away to the Lakers.
Sublime 2
06-23-2009, 01:38 PM
Also a rumor today that the Celtics offered Ray Ray and Rondo for Rip/Prince/Stuckey. Pistons declined. I've heard a lot recently of the C's looking to trade Rondo, and I'm not 100% sure how to feel about that. I love Rondo, and will follow him wherever, but if the deal makes the C's that much better, then I'm for it. I guess we'll see if there's any fire to go with the smoke.
RomaGoth
06-23-2009, 01:48 PM
Also a rumor today that the Celtics offered Ray Ray and Rondo for Rip/Prince/Stuckey. Pistons declined. I've heard a lot recently of the C's looking to trade Rondo, and I'm not 100% sure how to feel about that. I love Rondo, and will follow him wherever, but if the deal makes the C's that much better, then I'm for it. I guess we'll see if there's any fire to go with the smoke.
I heard this rumor as well. As a Pistons fan, I am not sure what to think about this. Until last year, I thought Dumars was doing a helluva job. Then he traded Billups (allegedly to free up cap space). They promptly went into the tank and were not competitive the rest of last season. I like Rip and Tayshaun, jury is still out on Stuckey but he is young. I really like Rondo, but see no need to trade for a guy like Ray Allen at this point in his career or at this point in the Pistons' development. If they were one player away from being a serious contender, I would look at a guy like him (of course without giving up the rest of the team to do it), but Detroit is now in a rebuilding phase, and that trade would not make sense. I am glad they rejected it, but not sure what they will be doing to make this team better going forward.
Sublime 2
06-23-2009, 01:50 PM
I'm not sure of the Pistons cap situation without the guys they would have allegedly dealt, but Ray Ray does come off the books after this season.
Coffee Warlord
06-23-2009, 01:59 PM
There have been rumors here in Chicago that the Bulls may trade both their first round picks to move up to the 9-12 range. Seems they are really interested in Gerald Henderson who to me is one of the most underated players in this draft.
In personal offseason news, next year will be the first year that my season tickets will be in the 100 level. Taken about 5 years and a massive recession, but no more nosebleeds for me.
And you're bringing me along to a game when? :)
sterlingice
06-23-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm guessing the Bucks will release Bowen and Oberto - meaning they may end up coming back to the Spurs by midseason. So, the deal will probably end up being the corpse of Kurt Thomas for Richard Jefferson. Fantastic deal for the Spurs and a nice move in terms of value/potential. The top teams in the league (Spurs, Lakers, ...) have certainly learned how to make a mockery of this current NBA trading system. But, Kudos to them for taking advantage of the situation. I would expect more dumps over the next few months as teams deal with the current financial crisis.
While it's a little true that you see some trading mockeries- you have to look at each trade with salary cap room as a "player" in the trade. This isn't just 3 bench players for Jefferson, it's 3 bench players + cap space for Jefferson.
That said, this is going to be a crazy buyer's market. There are going to be at least 20 sellers and only 10 buyers.
SI
RomaGoth
06-23-2009, 02:04 PM
I'm not sure of the Pistons cap situation without the guys they would have allegedly dealt, but Ray Ray does come off the books after this season.
I am sure they are freeing up nearly $22m with the departure of AI. That was supposedly one of the reasons they dumped Billups, to get out from under his multi-year contract.
DaddyTorgo
06-23-2009, 02:26 PM
rip/prince/stuckey for ray ray + rondo is questionable.
stuckey is a downgrade over rondo for sure.
ray ray is getting older, but he's still a deadeye outside shooter. rip doesn't have his range or ability to stretch the defense in that sense, and the C's don't have anyone besides House on the bench who can.
Rip is probably his equal from midrange though.
Prince would be a player I'd love, and I think defensively he would add a ton, but idk.
Arles
06-23-2009, 03:03 PM
While it's a little true that you see some trading mockeries- you have to look at each trade with salary cap room as a "player" in the trade. This isn't just 3 bench players for Jefferson, it's 3 bench players + cap space for Jefferson.
Given Oberto and Bowen will be bought out/cut the moment they arrive, it's one bench player (in his late 30s) and cap space for a 29-year old Jefferson.
That said, this is going to be a crazy buyer's market. There are going to be at least 20 sellers and only 10 buyers.
This is going to be the most valuable player to 15-20 NBA teams this offseason:
http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:KKxSPP_NUa3V8M:http://www.epc.org/mediafiles/cash.jpg
lungs
06-23-2009, 05:08 PM
I reckon the Bucks still won't be worth watching next year.
RainMaker
06-23-2009, 06:28 PM
How is Jefferson only 29? Feels like he's been in the league for a long time.
Big Fo
06-23-2009, 06:36 PM
From SI.com
The Wizards and Timberwolves have agreed in principle to a trade involving Washington's No. 5 pick in Thursday's draft, a league source told SI.com.
The Wizards will receive Randy Foye and Mike Miller while the Timberwolves will get the No. 5 pick, Etan Thomas, Darius Songaila and Oleksiy Pecherov.
The trade leaves Minnesota with the Nos. 5 and 6 picks in the lottery.
I saw a brief interview with Rubio a little while ago, he looks even younger than he is. I liked watching him in the Olympics but I don't know how good he'll be in the NBA. He doesn't seem to be particularly quick, he's short, and shooting is one of his weaknesses.
Atocep
06-23-2009, 06:39 PM
From SI.com
I saw a brief interview with Rubio a little while ago, he looks even younger than he is. I liked watching him in the Olympics but I don't know how good he'll be in the NBA. He doesn't seem to be particularly quick, he's short, and shooting is one of his weaknesses.
I honestly don't see Rubio as anything other than a huge disappointment. He's weaknesses are not good weaknesses to have in the NBA.
k0ruptr
06-23-2009, 06:48 PM
I honestly don't see Rubio as anything other than a huge disappointment. He's weaknesses are not good weaknesses to have in the NBA.
given the eye he has on the court and his passing game which seems excellent, and also being only 18 I think he could turn into a solid but not spectacular point.
mckerney
06-23-2009, 06:50 PM
From SI.com
I saw a brief interview with Rubio a little while ago, he looks even younger than he is. I liked watching him in the Olympics but I don't know how good he'll be in the NBA. He doesn't seem to be particularly quick, he's short, and shooting is one of his weaknesses.
Woohoo! Foye and Miller are gone!
I honestly don't see Rubio as anything other than a huge disappointment. He's weaknesses are not good weaknesses to have in the NBA.
I feel the same way, hopefully the Wolves are moving up for Thabeet instead of Rubio. They need someone next to Jefferson or Love.
RainMaker
06-23-2009, 06:55 PM
I honestly don't see Rubio as anything other than a huge disappointment. He's weaknesses are not good weaknesses to have in the NBA.
He's also a phenomenal ball handler. Will probably be one of the best, if not the best in a few years. I think the potential upside is that of a little slower version (in his prime) of Jason Kidd.
stevew
06-23-2009, 06:57 PM
I dunno if Rubio is as much of a freak as Rondo but he's certainly been good without being a good shot. Then again Rondo didn't go til the early 20s in the draft
stevew
06-23-2009, 06:59 PM
Anyone got a cash breakdown on the Wizards trade?
sterlingice
06-23-2009, 07:41 PM
Woohoo! Foye and Miller are gone!
Wow, sounds like a great trade for the Wizards if they're giving up pick #5 for a pair of players someone is saying "Woo! They're gone!"
So, I give up- what's bad about those two?
SI
Chief Rum
06-23-2009, 07:47 PM
Woohoo! Foye and Miller are gone!
I feel the same way, hopefully the Wolves are moving up for Thabeet instead of Rubio. They need someone next to Jefferson or Love.
Thomas? Songaila?
My guess is the Wolves will draft Thabeet and Jordan Hill, and start the first "All Center" team in NBA history.
sterlingice
06-23-2009, 07:49 PM
Thomas? Songaila?
My guess is the Wolves will draft Thabeet and Jordan Hill, and start the first "All Center" team in NBA history.
Gold, Chief :D
Twin Towers? Pshaw. We'll call our lineup Stonehenge!
SI
RedKingGold
06-23-2009, 08:11 PM
I'm a biased Villanova fan, but I always thought Foye had really good potential to be a solid off-guard. He has, however, been cursed by injuries thus far in his NBA career.
MrBug708
06-23-2009, 08:31 PM
Im guessing Harden might as well start checking on real estate in Minnesota
Chief Rum
06-23-2009, 08:45 PM
Im guessing Harden might as well start checking on real estate in Minnesota
Despite the need for a defensive center, if Thabeet doesn't fall to the TWolves, I can see them going all guard, maybe Harden and Tyreke Evans.
mckerney
06-23-2009, 11:20 PM
Wow, sounds like a great trade for the Wizards if they're giving up pick #5 for a pair of players someone is saying "Woo! They're gone!"
So, I give up- what's bad about those two?
SI
Miller was garbage last year and his only real value was his expiring contract, and Foye has been nothing but a disappointment since he was traded for. He's shown he can't be an effective point guard or have a lot of the offense go through him at the two, so he's essentially a 2 guard with a lousy shot who should be nothing more than a bench player. Neither one of those two players had a future with the Timberwolves if they can be built into a decent team.
Remains to be seen if Kahn can have a good first offseason as GM, but unloading these two is a good start, and getting the #5 pick and only taking on 1 slightly bad contract makes it look like a pretty good deal if he can do something with the pick. Will be even better if he can manage to get something for Corey Brewer.
mckerney
06-23-2009, 11:21 PM
Despite the need for a defensive center, if Thabeet doesn't fall to the TWolves, I can see them going all guard, maybe Harden and Tyreke Evans.
That wouldn't surprise me either, they still don't have anyone who's any good as a starter at a position other than PF.
jbergey22
06-24-2009, 12:16 AM
Im not really disappointed the wolves got rid of Miller and Foye but I do think this is a great trade for Washington in that Foye fits in nicely with what they have.
Gilbert
Foye/Miller
Butler
Jamison
is a very strong foundation.
RedKingGold
06-24-2009, 06:59 AM
Remains to be seen if Kahn can have a good first offseason as GM, but unloading these two is a good start, and getting the #5 pick and only taking on 1 slightly bad contract makes it look like a pretty good deal if he can do something with the pick. Will be even better if he can manage to get something for Corey Brewer.
Brewer and Foye were considered really good prospects when they came out.
Could it be that the problem isn't the players but the inability of the T-Wolves to develop their talent?
hoopsguy
06-24-2009, 07:07 AM
Im not really disappointed the wolves got rid of Miller and Foye but I do think this is a great trade for Washington in that Foye fits in nicely with what they have.
Gilbert
Foye/Miller
Butler
Jamison
is a very strong foundation.
Is there anyone who is even going to pretend to play defense in Washington next season? If you are advocating that they don't need to be because they are going to score on everyone with an uptempo attack, then who is playing point guard for them?
I think this team is hot garbage.
Samdari
06-24-2009, 07:22 AM
Woohoo! Foye and Miller are gone!
I feel the same way, hopefully the Wolves are moving up for Thabeet instead of Rubio. They need someone next to Jefferson or Love.
There is no chance Thabeet is there at 5. You pretty much have to get up to 2 to get Thabeet. Since no other players are really differentiated from one another (i.e. lots of guards available) Thabeet is the second most valuable commodity in this draft. He'll go second.
At least I hope they want a point guard, cause that's what they're getting at 5.
Unless its Harden. It really could be Harden. And then a PG at 6.
mckerney
06-24-2009, 10:35 AM
There is no chance Thabeet is there at 5. You pretty much have to get up to 2 to get Thabeet. Since no other players are really differentiated from one another (i.e. lots of guards available) Thabeet is the second most valuable commodity in this draft. He'll go second.
At least I hope they want a point guard, cause that's what they're getting at 5.
Unless its Harden. It really could be Harden. And then a PG at 6.
That's what I'm hoping for. A lot of the rumors I've read had the Wolves trading for the 5th pick so they could package it to try and move up to 2.
mckerney
06-24-2009, 10:54 AM
Brewer and Foye were considered really good prospects when they came out.
Could it be that the problem isn't the players but the inability of the T-Wolves to develop their talent?
Well I don't think that they were all that good at it when Randy Wittman was the coach, neither one of those two was destined for stardom. Brewer's ceiling is a role player on defense, he came into t he NBA not having the fundamentals of dribbling or passing down, if he hadn't learned those things by the age of 22 I'm not gonna put him down as someone that wasn't developed by his pro coaches. Taking him at 7 was an unbelievable reach, especially with the players he was picked ahead of the the needs Minnesota had. With Foye the only mistake was not realizing they had the better player in Roy and leaving it at that. Foye doesn't have the shooting ability or skill to score inside to be a great scorer, and if any coach out there can teach him to be an effective point guard or better distributor as a 2 then I'll be surprised.
Ronnie Dobbs2
06-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Are the Celtics really going to trade Rondo? Lots of smoke here, whether it's to PHX for Amare, DET in that package, or MEM for Gay/Conley. Ainge on WEEI this morning questioning his maturity.
The kid has no jump shot, but other than that he's pretty great. Interesting times.
Logan
06-24-2009, 11:25 AM
Sports Guy was saying that the chemistry problems relating to him are starting to become bigger, and they may be trying to pawn him off before he fully busts out and everyone knows about them.
MikeVic
06-24-2009, 11:27 AM
I was gonna post the same thing Logan just did... Simmons says there has to be something behind the scenes otherwise it doesn't make sense.
DaddyTorgo
06-24-2009, 11:27 AM
interesting
if you trade him you've got zero PG though, and you have no first round pick to use on one. so you gotta have a plan for that.
MikeVic
06-24-2009, 11:28 AM
Simmons and Chad Ford were talking about a Tony Parker/Rondo trade scenario too.
Ronnie Dobbs2
06-24-2009, 11:30 AM
interesting
if you trade him you've got zero PG though, and you have no first round pick to use on one. so you gotta have a plan for that.
On SOSH they're masturbating over some scenario where Rondo becomes the #2 and that pick and Allen become Chris Paul and all NO's bad contracts.
stevew
06-24-2009, 11:33 AM
The Celtics could just sign the corpse of Jason Kidd, and he'd be solid for the next 2 years.
DaddyTorgo
06-24-2009, 11:36 AM
On SOSH they're masturbating over some scenario where Rondo becomes the #2 and that pick and Allen become Chris Paul and all NO's bad contracts.
LOL
DeToxRox
06-24-2009, 11:39 AM
From Rotoworld:
ESPN's Chad Ford has heard that Doc Rivers finds Rajon Rondo "stubborn" and "impossible to coach", and Celtics GM Danny Ainge revealed on Wednesday that Rondo was fined for being late to a home playoff game last season.
The Celtics recently included Rondo in a low-ball trade offer to the Pistons, and it looks like they're trying to unload him before he becomes a restricted free agent next summer. Ainge said bluntly, "[Rondo's] presence hurt us in winning right now because [against Orlando in the playoffs] his man went and doubled onto Ray [Allen] and Paul [Pierce] and made it difficult for us." Ainge doesn't feel Rondo deserves a max contract, and his trade value is probably at its peak, so expect his name to continue surfacing throughout the summer.
molson
06-24-2009, 11:42 AM
From Rotoworld:
That makes it sound like they're just trying to give Rondo a wake-up call. There's no other reason Ainge would publically criticize a player he's trying to move.
Sublime 2
06-24-2009, 11:42 AM
Latest Rondo rumor I've seen floated around I find far more interesting. Rondo+Scalabrini+JR Giddens for Mike Conley and Rudy Gay. Gay becomes the uber 6th man to rest PP and Ray Ray while logging starter mins. They keep Ray's expiring deal and have far more financial flexibility.
More and more smoke.
Edit: sorry guys posted from my bberry, didn't see all the Rondo talk already.
RainMaker
06-24-2009, 04:59 PM
Rondo plays like a bitch so it's not a surprise he acts like one in the locker room. As others have said, there has to be some big issues behind the scenes to be so willing to unload a good young PG like him.
Atocep
06-24-2009, 05:12 PM
Latest Rondo rumor I've seen floated around I find far more interesting. Rondo+Scalabrini+JR Giddens for Mike Conley and Rudy Gay. Gay becomes the uber 6th man to rest PP and Ray Ray while logging starter mins. They keep Ray's expiring deal and have far more financial flexibility.
More and more smoke.
Edit: sorry guys posted from my bberry, didn't see all the Rondo talk already.
That trade makes absolutely no sense for Memphis. So it's probably done already.
RainMaker
06-24-2009, 05:18 PM
That trade makes absolutely no sense for Memphis. So it's probably done already.
It'd be a money move I'm guessing. They get to build a team around Rondo and Mayo while potentially bringing in a free agent in 2010.
I would argue that the move doesn't make sense for Boston. Rondo was their best player in the playoffs most of the time. In a league where quick point guards are huge, it eliminates one of the best. I think it puts a lot more pressure on the aging Pierce and Allen. Gay would certainly help but who knows how he'll react in a more pressure filled situation.
hoopsguy
06-24-2009, 11:44 PM
Shaq to Cleveland for Big Ben and Pavlovic is being reported on ESPN. I know that move has been talked about in the past but supposedly it is now just awaiting ownership approval.
hxxp://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4285489
The Cleveland Cavaliers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=cle) and the Phoenix Suns (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=pho) are nearing agreement on a blockbuster trade that would send Shaquille O'Neal (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=614) to Cleveland to team with LeBron James (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1966), according to two sources with knowledge of the discussions.
The deal is more than "90 percent" complete, according to the sources, and is merely awaiting final approval from the team's owners.
Cleveland will send Ben Wallace (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=885) and Sasha Pavlovic (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2172) to Phoenix for the future Hall of Famer.
The trade gives the Cavs a player they've coveted since February. With center Zydrunas Ilgauskas (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=362) starting to break down, adding Shaq to the roster gives them a dominant force in the middle. The Cavs were obviously unhappy with their ability to defend Dwight Howard (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2384) in the playoffs and bringing Shaq into the fold should help.
For the Suns, the move is a straight salary dump. Pavlovic's $5 million dollar contract next season is only partially guaranteed for the amount of $1.5 million. Factor in the disparities in the contracts between Wallace, Pavlovic and Shaq and the team will save $4.5 milliion next season. However, when you factor in the savings they'll reap on the luxury tax, it will be closer to $10 million in savings. That savings can be amplified if Wallace decides to retire and the Suns buy him out of his contract for less than the $14 million he's owed next season.
The trade is a pretty strong admission by the Suns that they screwed up when they traded Shawn Marion (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=510) for Shaq in February of 2007. Marion was a free agent this summer and, had they let him walk, their savings would've been $21 million not the $5.5 million they're saving in this deal.
When the Suns made the trade they had the best record in the Western Conference. This year they finished in the lottery. With Shaq gone, the question is ... are the Suns finally rebuilding?
Sources say that the team would still like to compete. They still have veterans Steve Nash (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=592), Amare Stoudemire (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1727), Jason Richardson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1018) and Leandro Barbosa (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2166). They also have the 14th pick in the draft this year and second year player Robin Lopez (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3447).
Big Fo
06-24-2009, 11:47 PM
I can't wait to see Howard abuse Shaq next season. The Suns never should have hired Kerr.
Gary Gorski
06-24-2009, 11:53 PM
With Crawford rumored to be traded to ATL shortly if Mike Bibby is willing to take the MLE he could end up in Boston allowing them to move Rondo for whatever they want without having to get a PG in return.
Now I don't know if Bibby or Kidd would go for the MLE - my guess is they wouldn't want to but I don't know if ATL would want Bibby back now. Obviously the Mavs want to keep Kidd so he'll get paid but the Hawks would have Crawford and Joe Johnson so what do they do with Bibby?
DaddyTorgo
06-25-2009, 12:08 AM
the nba trading system and salary-dump trades really fuck with my enjoyment of the league.
Big Fo
06-25-2009, 12:12 AM
That's one of the reasons I don't mind baseball's economic system so much even if that also has its faults.
Atocep
06-25-2009, 01:31 AM
It'd be a money move I'm guessing. They get to build a team around Rondo and Mayo while potentially bringing in a free agent in 2010.
I would argue that the move doesn't make sense for Boston. Rondo was their best player in the playoffs most of the time. In a league where quick point guards are huge, it eliminates one of the best. I think it puts a lot more pressure on the aging Pierce and Allen. Gay would certainly help but who knows how he'll react in a more pressure filled situation.
The problem for Memphis is it isn't a place most NBA players want to go to. Even with cap room they're not going to land Wade, Lebron, or Bosh. They can land a 2nd tier star such as Rashard Lewis with a max deal and that's probably their limit. Gay has the potential to be just that type of player and Conley looked solid the last couple months of the season.
From Boston's perspective, if they don't plan on resigning Rondo and he's as big of a headache as reported then they're landing a guy that would instantly be one of the top 6th men in the league and a young, pass first point guard that was a top 5 pick just 2 years ago.
After the Gasol trade it seemed they had decided to blow things up and just start over. Everyone ripped them for the trade, but at least it seemed like they had a direction in mind. Now just a year and half later they're starting over again by trading two starters that are ages 22 and 21.
stevew
06-25-2009, 01:36 AM
Shaq-fu beeyatches!
Too bad this was 6 months too late to matter.
Not that it would have anyways.
The carcass of shaq at 20m for the carcass of Ben Wallace(14m) and the dumb euro guy Pavs(who will be bought out)
I guess I'm glad I won't have to see Sasha anymore.
stevew
06-25-2009, 01:42 AM
dola-
The Cavs just threw another 10m on the luxury tax pile, I'm guessing the cheap seats will be more like 60-70 instead of 30-40.
jbergey22
06-25-2009, 02:38 AM
Whats the story with this Rubio? Is he really worthy of the 2nd overall pick the Twolves are willing to trade up for? Seems kind of slow footed and from what I hear hes not a good pull up shooter. Sure hes 18 but Europeans flop on a consistent basis. Are we sure McHale has really left the team? Id love for them to come out of this draft with Thabeet, DeRozen and Ty Lawson. Of course that will never happen but with DeRozen and Thabeet they be instantly a talented defensive team if nothing else.
stevew
06-25-2009, 02:54 AM
I don't follow the college game at all, and the recruiting etc.
When's the next time we'll see an "it" legit franchise type player available in the draft? I'm sure Griffin will probably be good, but we're talking a, what, 20-10 max guy.
Is the next big thing even on the radar yet...that's basically what I'm asking.
Chief Rum
06-25-2009, 03:01 AM
I don't follow the college game at all, and the recruiting etc.
When's the next time we'll see an "it" legit franchise type player available in the draft? I'm sure Griffin will probably be good, but we're talking a, what, 20-10 max guy.
Is the next big thing even on the radar yet...that's basically what I'm asking.
Don't really have a legit answer for ya, but I'll say this--there were only two 20-10 guys in the league this past season, and only five more within 18-8.
If Griffin comes anywhere close to 20-10 in the next three seasons, I as a Clips fan will be ecstatic.
RainMaker
06-25-2009, 03:43 AM
The problem for Memphis is it isn't a place most NBA players want to go to. Even with cap room they're not going to land Wade, Lebron, or Bosh. They can land a 2nd tier star such as Rashard Lewis with a max deal and that's probably their limit. Gay has the potential to be just that type of player and Conley looked solid the last couple months of the season.
From Boston's perspective, if they don't plan on resigning Rondo and he's as big of a headache as reported then they're landing a guy that would instantly be one of the top 6th men in the league and a young, pass first point guard that was a top 5 pick just 2 years ago.
After the Gasol trade it seemed they had decided to blow things up and just start over. Everyone ripped them for the trade, but at least it seemed like they had a direction in mind. Now just a year and half later they're starting over again by trading two starters that are ages 22 and 21.
I can only think that they feel Rondo is a franchise player who will be one of the top 3-5 point guards in the league. That in the deal, they would be ending up with the best player. That Rondo has the talent that you can build a team around, and due to him not being a bigger name, he'll probably be willing to sign in Memphis long term and be their star. With that in place, plus Thabeet and a high pick or free agent next year, they could be a young playoff team.
I don't necessarily agree with that, but I don't think the trade is horrible. Conley is OK at PG. Gay is a good player but not someone who is capable of leading a team.
But it's Memphis and they'll surely make the stupid moves. This is the team who is passing on Rubio for Thabeet.
RainMaker
06-25-2009, 03:47 AM
Whats the story with this Rubio? Is he really worthy of the 2nd overall pick the Twolves are willing to trade up for? Seems kind of slow footed and from what I hear hes not a good pull up shooter. Sure hes 18 but Europeans flop on a consistent basis. Are we sure McHale has really left the team? Id love for them to come out of this draft with Thabeet, DeRozen and Ty Lawson. Of course that will never happen but with DeRozen and Thabeet they be instantly a talented defensive team if nothing else.
Rubio is not as quick as PGs today but has better ball handling than most point guards in the league right now. He is a pass first point guard who has experience playing in big games against big stars. I think the talk of his shooting is overblown as not many 18 year olds have a good shot when coming into the draft. He'll get that as he develops. He's also got good size.
I think you have to take him at #2. Not just for the potential he has, but for the buzz he'd create for the franchise. Memphis is beyond stupid for passing up on him.
k0ruptr
06-25-2009, 04:09 AM
I agree 20-10 is vastly underrated at this point.
Rubio is not as quick as PGs today but has better ball handling than most point guards in the league right now. He is a pass first point guard who has experience playing in big games against big stars. I think the talk of his shooting is overblown as not many 18 year olds have a good shot when coming into the draft. He'll get that as he develops. He's also got good size.
I think you have to take him at #2. Not just for the potential he has, but for the buzz he'd create for the franchise. Memphis is beyond stupid for passing up on him.
Agree with your comments, but the only problem i see with him signing for Memphis is that he has already stated he doesn't want to go there, so i guess Memphis could be scared of picking him at #2 and then Rubio deciding to stay in Spain, specially when he needs to pay $6M to break his contract with his current team (it should be lowered to half that after the lawsuit they are into).
RainMaker
06-25-2009, 05:18 AM
Agree with your comments, but the only problem i see with him signing for Memphis is that he has already stated he doesn't want to go there, so i guess Memphis could be scared of picking him at #2 and then Rubio deciding to stay in Spain, specially when he needs to pay $6M to break his contract with his current team (it should be lowered to half that after the lawsuit they are into).
While the buyout is big, it's not as big as wasting a year. With the way salaries are structured, players just need to get in quickly so they can build up their time toward free agency. Going back to Spain for a year just means one more year he'll have to wait for the big payday (as well as another year for teams to find weaknesses in his game). If he refuses to play for Memphis, do they lose the rights for him next year and he goes back into the draft?
From what I've been reading, he's been a bitch about the whole process. Doesn't want to play in Memphis or OKC and has made some comments about how Minnesota is too cold for his mom.
I have a feeling he ends up in Sacramento.
JeeberD
06-25-2009, 05:24 AM
There's a ton of speculation on the Rockets board that the Rox are going to trade TMac and Aaron Brooks for Amare Stoudamire and an expensive body (Barbosa is the most commonly seen name). Then they would use Carl Landry as trade bait to move up in the draft to get a PG to replace Brooks...
Arles, are y'all hearing anything like that out your way?
Samdari
06-25-2009, 07:15 AM
I can't wait to see Howard abuse Shaq next season. The Suns never should have hired Kerr.
But, tv analysts who have never worked in an NBA front office usually make GREAT general managers.
Samdari
06-25-2009, 07:17 AM
I would argue that the move doesn't make sense for Boston. Rondo was their best player in the playoffs most of the time. In a league where quick point guards are huge, it eliminates one of the best.
Note: if you trade for Mike Conley, you absolutely, positively, do not lose quickness. You may lose playing ability and a rudimentary understanding of the game, but not quickness.
sterlingice
06-25-2009, 07:49 AM
the nba trading system and salary-dump trades really fuck with my enjoyment of the league.
That's one of the reasons I don't mind baseball's economic system so much even if that also has its faults.
You mean where all the salary dumps go to a handful of teams who can afford them?
SI
sterlingice
06-25-2009, 07:54 AM
I don't follow the college game at all, and the recruiting etc.
When's the next time we'll see an "it" legit franchise type player available in the draft? I'm sure Griffin will probably be good, but we're talking a, what, 20-10 max guy.
Is the next big thing even on the radar yet...that's basically what I'm asking.
Yeah, so it's a down year for the draft. But LeBron doesn't come around every year and last I checked, most teams could use a guy who can clean the glass and score at the same time. Not only that but he's NBA ready and you have a better idea of his ceiling/floor. The jury's out on whether he's someone you can completely build a franchise around but he sure as hell can be a quality 2nd or 3rd piece to the puzzle at least.
SI
sterlingice
06-25-2009, 08:05 AM
There's a ton of speculation on the Rockets board that the Rox are going to trade TMac and Aaron Brooks for Amare Stoudamire and an expensive body (Barbosa is the most commonly seen name). Then they would use Carl Landry as trade bait to move up in the draft to get a PG to replace Brooks...
Arles, are y'all hearing anything like that out your way?
I was reading Morey's quotes in the Chronicle where he seems dead set about wanting to move into this draft and I just don't understand it. It's a weak draft so why trade something that is useful (rotation player for 2009-10) for something that isn't so much (a mid-late 1st round draft pick in a weak draft).
If they're trading TMac, does that mean they're planning to keep Artest? Unless they can get a contract they can walk away from back in return, they can't lose both of those guys and replace all that scoring. Their biggest need is still PG and I'd be content with a distributor and defender there, but unless they have some magic way to get CP3- I don't see them replacing those points.
I guess I understand getting Stoudamire- he's a quality PF, but, again, isn't the biggest need the Rockets have, it's PG. I'm content with the Scola/Landry PF combo- they're not great but they're cheap and can get the job done
Then again, I also saw the little blurb about Yao still not being healed yet. If he's not going to be right next year, I guess planning for 09-10 isn't that important.
SI
sterlingice
06-25-2009, 08:06 AM
Ok, so Dallas trades #22 to Portland for #24, #56, and their worst 2nd next year.
...Why?
#56 and a similar pick next year are worthless- guys drafted that low hardly ever make a team, particularly for a veteran squad like Dallas where most of the team is set.
SI
Big Fo
06-25-2009, 08:50 AM
You mean where all the salary dumps go to a handful of teams who can afford them?
SI
You rarely see anything as lopsided as the Gasol to the Lakers trade in baseball in terms of how it affects the teams on the field/court. But that doesn't mean baseball doesn't have other problems.
DaddyTorgo
06-25-2009, 08:53 AM
You rarely see anything as lopsided as the Gasol to the Lakers trade in baseball in terms of how it affects the teams on the field/court. But that doesn't mean baseball doesn't have other problems.
Gasol to the Lakers was the primary one that I was thinking of (along with this Shaq-thing)
Gary Gorski
06-25-2009, 10:14 AM
Ok, so Dallas trades #22 to Portland for #24, #56, and their worst 2nd next year.
...Why?
#56 and a similar pick next year are worthless- guys drafted that low hardly ever make a team, particularly for a veteran squad like Dallas where most of the team is set.
SI
One possibility is that if you think the same calibur player is at 24 then he's cheaper plus you're getting two free swings at players. True, neither is likely to ever see the NBA but the picks aren't guaranteed contracts or would be cheap players they could stick in the NBDL if they think they have some potential. Unless there's really a guy you want at 22 and he's gone by 24 then there's really not much downside to the deal.
Gary Gorski
06-25-2009, 10:20 AM
Gasol to the Lakers was the primary one that I was thinking of (along with this Shaq-thing)
Well the Grizz did get Marc Gasol and a couple 1st round picks - not enough to make it a fair trade value wise but at least they got something.
On that note I don't know what Cleveland is thinking here. You don't need a 37 year old 300lb man to defend Howard - the Lakers did a pretty nice job with out one in the Finals. Cleveland could have taken that junk and addressed a need - like a legitimate 2nd scorer like Michael Redd or perhaps someone who can defend a perimiter playing PF. That's one terrible organization there - how do you not unload Szcerbiak's contract for something last season when you could have made this same Shaq deal then? Why Shaq now? So you hope he stays healthy an entire season just to split minutes with Z? Why is Mike Brown still coaching this team? I can't imagine why LeBron would consider leaving this debacle.
stevew
06-25-2009, 10:24 AM
It's really hard being a fan Gary, I agree it's a borderline debacle.
No way I make the trade for Shaq Fu now, not when I can get a much better player with those contracts.
hoopsguy
06-25-2009, 10:25 AM
Gasol to the Lakers was the primary one that I was thinking of (along with this Shaq-thing)
I don't think that 70 year old Shaq is who you think he is.
Gary Gorski
06-25-2009, 10:30 AM
It's really hard being a fan Gary, I agree it's a borderline debacle.
No way I make the trade for Shaq Fu now, not when I can get a much better player with those contracts.
I agree - the team was a disaster and with one player you've been within reach of the championship. In 12 months there's a chance this franchise goes right back to the bottom of the league. It's an absolute shame that in his time there LeBron has been surrounded with a joke of a front office and head coach as well as not one single fairly young player with the potential of being a long-time solid #2 option to LeBron.
I don't see how this trade does anything but push LeBron out the door. If you win and its attributed to Shaq's help then LeBron knows an even older Shaq may not even be back so the team isn't any better plus he delivered the city a title so he can leave knowing he brought that home. If they don't win then LeBron can see that all they gave him was an old Shaq and leave because the organization isn't serious about getting in long term players to build with.
They better do whatever it takes to make another move to bring in someone who might actually help them win it this year and be there to continue winning in the future.
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