Madden NFL 11 News Post

FBGRatings Seeks to Recalibrate Madden Ratings, Change Game

01:46 PM - January 24, 2011 by RaychelSnr

I recentely sat down for a talk with FBGRatings.com's Dan Berens to discuss his site's vision and what's going on over there today. The site is currently working on getting accurate ratings for every player using real hard data converted into the Madden ratings universe. Dan claims that when these numbers are plugged into the game, it plays much better and much closer to real life. Check out the interview below and also check out Dan's website to see what he's got going on!

Interview with Berens on the OS Radio Show on BlogTalkRadio

Game: Madden NFL 11Reader Score: 6/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS3 / Xbox 360Votes for game: 96 - View All

Madden NFL 11 Videos

Member Comments

# 1281 charter04 @ 07/25/14 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azdawgpound


	so should I try yours or would that make the game worst? I mean if I only adjusted one and im getting blow outs 2 of 3 games. I used yours on ps3 and seem to get good games with them.

You could but, I don't adjust that much for these rosters. I'll post some slider adjustments for these rosters when I get the chance. Also CMhooe has some on this thread or the PS4 FBG rating roster thread

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

# 1282 Hooe @ 07/25/14 06:49 PM

The only slider I have touched to this point was QB Accuracy (for user and CPU). Everything else is standard All Pro for me so far.

# 1283 charter04 @ 07/25/14 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CM Hooe


	The only slider I have touched to this point was QB Accuracy (for user and CPU). Everything else is standard All Pro for me so far.

What did you put user acc on?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

# 1284 Hooe @ 07/25/14 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charter04


	What did you put user acc on?

I think I've got it set for 35 for both user and CPU right now. If that ends up being different I'll correct this post.

# 1285 ggsimmonds @ 07/28/14 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Quiet_Pro


	Forgive me if this was mentioned, (I wasn't searching through 35 pages to find it HAHA), But it'd be great if someone (or some people) could work with these more realistic ratings, and make them available in Madden Share. (AND hopefully keep them updated).

"Be the change you want to see in the world..."

# 1286 Argooos @ 07/28/14 01:10 AM

I've been working on converting an updated Madden 12 roster to these ratings. So far I've done all the quarterbacks in the league as well as three complete teams (Dolphins, Jets, Bills). I have to say I'm really impressed. It's going to be a very fun game when I eventually (some day) finish.

The only part that bothers me is players whose ratings are lower because they are currently injured or suspended. I understand that you get these ratings from a scout and plug them into your ratings formula. I have to assume you aren't able to pick and choose which players' ratings to update when new data comes in because otherwise I think it's an odd choice to lower these players' ratings.

I understand why scouts would lower the ratings - if a player isn't going to be on the field, they will have no impact on the field and their ratings should reflect that - if they're injured, you can expect them to not be able to perform physically as before. That makes sense for real life when the ratings can be constantly updated relatively easily. Madden, however, is not real life. When I (or someone like me) uses your ratings to re-rate players in Madden, those ratings are essentially set in stone. We're not going to re-rate every player in the league every time you post an update. As such, if a player is currently suspended and thus is -20 overall, they will stay -20 overall in my roster for as long as I use it. It's simply not feasible for me to track down all the injured and suspended players in the league and re-rate them when you update their ratings.

While I think overall you've done a fantastic job and the ratings are great, having these temporary low ratings for injured and (especially) suspended players really hurts the usability of these rosters for people like me who actually want to play with them in a Madden franchise/CCM.

# 1287 ggsimmonds @ 07/28/14 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argooos


	I've been working on converting an updated Madden 12 roster to these ratings. So far I've done all the quarterbacks in the league as well as three complete teams (Dolphins, Jets, Bills). I have to say I'm really impressed. It's going to be a very fun game when I eventually (some day) finish. The only part that bothers me is players whose ratings are lower because they are currently injured or suspended. I understand that you get these ratings from a scout and plug them into your ratings formula. I have to assume you aren't able to pick and choose which players' ratings to update when new data comes in because otherwise I think it's an odd choice to lower these players' ratings. I understand why scouts would lower the ratings - if a player isn't going to be on the field, they will have no impact on the field and their ratings should reflect that - if they're injured, you can expect them to not be able to perform physically as before. That makes sense for real life when the ratings can be constantly updated relatively easily. Madden, however, is not real life. When I (or someone like me) uses your ratings to re-rate players in Madden, those ratings are essentially set in stone. We're not going to re-rate every player in the league every time you post an update. As such, if a player is currently suspended and thus is -20 overall, they will stay -20 overall in my roster for as long as I use it. It's simply not feasible for me to track down all the injured and suspended players in the league and re-rate them when you update their ratings. While I think overall you've done a fantastic job and the ratings are great, having these temporary low ratings for injured and (especially) suspended players really hurts the usability of these rosters for people like me who actually want to play with them in a Madden franchise/CCM.

I would not understand it. There is no reasoning for a scout to lower a player's grade due to suspension or injury.

But correct me if I am wrong, the scouts do not lower grades; what happens is DCEBB applies a multiplier to injured/suspended players that alters their Madden ratings. If I had to guess, all players have this multiplier but for most players it may simply be 1 whereas an injured guy might have .5 or something.

# 1288 DCEBB2001 @ 07/28/14 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argooos


	I've been working on converting an updated Madden 12 roster to these ratings. So far I've done all the quarterbacks in the league as well as three complete teams (Dolphins, Jets, Bills). I have to say I'm really impressed. It's going to be a very fun game when I eventually (some day) finish. The only part that bothers me is players whose ratings are lower because they are currently injured or suspended. I understand that you get these ratings from a scout and plug them into your ratings formula. I have to assume you aren't able to pick and choose which players' ratings to update when new data comes in because otherwise I think it's an odd choice to lower these players' ratings. I understand why scouts would lower the ratings - if a player isn't going to be on the field, they will have no impact on the field and their ratings should reflect that - if they're injured, you can expect them to not be able to perform physically as before. That makes sense for real life when the ratings can be constantly updated relatively easily. Madden, however, is not real life. When I (or someone like me) uses your ratings to re-rate players in Madden, those ratings are essentially set in stone. We're not going to re-rate every player in the league every time you post an update. As such, if a player is currently suspended and thus is -20 overall, they will stay -20 overall in my roster for as long as I use it. It's simply not feasible for me to track down all the injured and suspended players in the league and re-rate them when you update their ratings. While I think overall you've done a fantastic job and the ratings are great, having these temporary low ratings for injured and (especially) suspended players really hurts the usability of these rosters for people like me who actually want to play with them in a Madden franchise/CCM.

I am sorry you see it that way but it is what it is. The formulas for calculating the overall score used by the scouts is a bit different from that used in Madden. Due to the ratings being done in real-time, I must stick with what the data says.

# 1289 DCEBB2001 @ 07/28/14 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggsimmonds


	I would not understand it. There is no reasoning for a scout to lower a player's grade due to suspension or injury. But correct me if I am wrong, the scouts do not lower grades; what happens is DCEBB applies a multiplier to injured/suspended players that alters their Madden ratings. If I had to guess, all players have this multiplier but for most players it may simply be 1 whereas an injured guy might have .5 or something.

Scouts do the same thing during the draft. A guy could have physical abilities and production through the roof and a score of 4.60. But if he has off the field issues, he may only be a 3.60 on their board. The scouts DO lower the grades. If the overall grade was not lower, I would have no reason to lower it. Everything I do relates to mimicking the scouting data. The multiplier comes in because the formula for obtaining an OVR in the scouting system is different from that in Madden. X + Y = Z in the scouting system when perhaps X(.3) + Y(1.6) = W in Madden. The formulas are different. Some of the attributes are different as well.

For instance, the actual grade for Robert Mathis right now is 0.3 whereas he is usually around 7.0. So please stand corrected. The measures I take are to match the data source. I do not alter the data itself; I merely try to match it in Madden.

# 1290 Argooos @ 07/28/14 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	I am sorry you see it that way but it is what it is. The formulas for calculating the overall score used by the scouts is a bit different from that used in Madden. Due to the ratings being done in real-time, I must stick with what the data says.

Okay, that's kinda what I figured. It's a shame it can't be done differently, but as you say, it is what it is.

# 1291 ggsimmonds @ 07/28/14 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	Scouts do the same thing during the draft. A guy could have physical abilities and production through the roof and a score of 4.60. But if he has off the field issues, he may only be a 3.60 on their board. The scouts DO lower the grades. If the overall grade was not lower, I would have no reason to lower it. Everything I do relates to mimicking the scouting data. The multiplier comes in because the formula for obtaining an OVR in the scouting system is different from that in Madden. X + Y = Z in the scouting system when perhaps X(.3) + Y(1.6) = W in Madden. The formulas are different. Some of the attributes are different as well. For instance, the actual grade for Robert Mathis right now is 0.3 whereas he is usually around 7.0. So please stand corrected. The measures I take are to match the data source. I do not alter the data itself; I merely try to match it in Madden.

Do they lower the on field grades or is there a separate grade for off field stuff (like character)? So because Ray Rice is suspended for two games his vision is not as good?
I know you are not the one grading the players, but it makes little sense to me why a scout would lower a player's abilities because he is suspended. My disagreement is even greater for current NFL players. It may make more sense perhaps for certain injuries, but even then I would still disagree. Just leave it at incomplete data instead of dropping a guy to an arbitrary point.

# 1292 DCEBB2001 @ 07/28/14 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggsimmonds


	Do they lower the on field grades or is there a separate grade for off field stuff (like character)? So because Ray Rice is suspended for two games his vision is not as good? I know you are not the one grading the players, but it makes little sense to me why a scout would lower a player's abilities because he is suspended. My disagreement is even greater for current NFL players. It may make more sense perhaps for certain injuries, but even then I would still disagree. Just leave it at incomplete data instead of dropping a guy to an arbitrary point.

All of the grades for the attributes stay the same. The only thing that changes is the overall grade. So for Ray Rice, his vision grade is 4.0/5.0. That doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the OVR score which is modified by a separate category that is dependent upon injury/suspension/misc. holds. This is what makes the overall grade drop for any player. The attribute data doesn't change one bit unless there is evidence to support the change. Madden doesn't allow us to change the OVR score without modifying the attributes. So, we have to choose one or the other. Modify the attributes and get the correct OVR rating, or leave the attributes alone and get an incorrect OVR rating.

As you can see, because there are typically more injuries than suspensions and the injuries do affect one's attributes, I have chosen to go with the correct OVR in these cases.

Scouts grade players less for suspensions/history all the time. Some scouts and GMs take them off of their boards all together. You don't have to take my word for it though, just do an internship with a scouting service or NFL front office. That's what I did.

Regardless, none of this conversation will make me change my mind on any of this. It is what it is. If you do not like it, don't use the ratings.

# 1293 charter04 @ 07/29/14 01:10 AM

Hey Dan, have you ever considered also including traits in your system? I would love to know based on real data what those traits should be. Throws tight spiral, how often they take off running, pocket presence, big hitter.

# 1294 ggsimmonds @ 07/29/14 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCEBB2001


	All of the grades for the attributes stay the same. The only thing that changes is the overall grade. So for Ray Rice, his vision grade is 4.0/5.0. That doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the OVR score which is modified by a separate category that is dependent upon injury/suspension/misc. holds. This is what makes the overall grade drop for any player. The attribute data doesn't change one bit unless there is evidence to support the change. Madden doesn't allow us to change the OVR score without modifying the attributes. So, we have to choose one or the other. Modify the attributes and get the correct OVR rating, or leave the attributes alone and get an incorrect OVR rating. As you can see, because there are typically more injuries than suspensions and the injuries do affect one's attributes, I have chosen to go with the correct OVR in these cases. Scouts grade players less for suspensions/history all the time. Some scouts and GMs take them off of their boards all together. You don't have to take my word for it though, just do an internship with a scouting service or NFL front office. That's what I did. Regardless, none of this conversation will make me change my mind on any of this. It is what it is. If you do not like it, don't use the ratings.

I'm not trying to make you change your mind or argue the point. I just was curious as to the reasoning behind it. But obviously I know that GMs will take certain guys off their board due to other factors. But you keep going back to the NFL draft...this is about Madden ratings though. Now I get what your saying, but you don't need to take the "if you don't like it go away attitude."

With that out of the way, what I am curious about is strictly what the scouts do. Staying on Ray Rice, for his suspension why would they change his grades/overall at all? Same thing with an injury.

Rather than explain it I have always fancied screenwriting so indulge me here. Hypothetical scenario: After Ray's incident Baltimore released him. Lets also imagine that Bernard's contract expired and the Ravens opted not to resign him. Team X is considering signing one of those players so the GM brings in his scout.

GM: Okay so what do you got for Rice?
Scout: Well we grade him overall at a 26.
GM: what? Yeah he had a bad year but he looked that bad?
Scout: Well no, but he is suspended so we lowered his final grade. Based on film he is a 72 but he beats his wife so we lowered him to factor in the risk.
GM: ...You are a scout. You scout football players. You report to me how good of a football player a guy is. We are aware of his history and myself and the coaches and ownership will take that into consideration. Your job is to report accurate data. How did you determine the 26 anyway?
Scout: Well we added a multiplier that would lower his final grade to a level we felt was sufficient and uh...
GM: It was arbitrary wasn't it? Nevermind, what about Bernard?
Scout: Ah we uh graded him a 32...
GM: why?
Scout: he is coming off surgery.
GM: So you think his ability to run between the tackles is diminished?
Scout: Nah, we didn't touch that. Actually he grades as a 62 but we dropped him.
GM: Because he is injured? And you are expecting a decrease in ability?
Scout: I don't know I am not a medical doctor or anything; we just dropped him to convey to you that...
GM: Get out of my office.
*end scene*

Of course I know that GMs do not care about overall rating like certain Madden players. It makes the whole damn thing pointless though. It is arbitrary and I have a hard time believing that professional scouts would manipulate data in this way. Going back to the draft, sure that may be different, but it is my opinion that abilities, injury concerns, and character should all be separate. If some front offices combine those categories to arrive at a final grade that is understandable but they do not arbitrarily drop the football grade.

# 1295 michiganfan8620 @ 07/29/14 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggsimmonds


	I'm not trying to make you change your mind or argue the point. I just was curious as to the reasoning behind it. But obviously I know that GMs will take certain guys off their board due to other factors. But you keep going back to the NFL draft...this is about Madden ratings though. Now I get what your saying, but you don't need to take the "if you don't like it go away attitude." With that out of the way, what I am curious about is strictly what the scouts do. Staying on Ray Rice, for his suspension why would they change his grades/overall at all? Same thing with an injury. Rather than explain it I have always fancied screenwriting so indulge me here. Hypothetical scenario: After Ray's incident Baltimore released him. Lets also imagine that Bernard's contract expired and the Ravens opted not to resign him. Team X is considering signing one of those players so the GM brings in his scout. GM: Okay so what do you got for Rice? Scout: Well we grade him overall at a 26. GM: what? Yeah he had a bad year but he looked that bad? Scout: Well no, but he is suspended so we lowered his final grade. Based on film he is a 72 but he beats his wife so we lowered him to factor in the risk. GM: ...You are a scout. You scout football players. You report to me how good of a football player a guy is. We are aware of his history and myself and the coaches and ownership will take that into consideration. Your job is to report accurate data. How did you determine the 26 anyway? Scout: Well we added a multiplier that would lower his final grade to a level we felt was sufficient and uh... GM: It was arbitrary wasn't it? Nevermind, what about Bernard? Scout: Ah we uh graded him a 32... GM: why? Scout: he is coming off surgery. GM: So you think his ability to run between the tackles is diminished? Scout: Nah, we didn't touch that. Actually he grades as a 62 but we dropped him. GM: Because he is injured? And you are expecting a decrease in ability? Scout: I don't know I am not a medical doctor or anything; we just dropped him to convey to you that... GM: Get out of my office. end scene Of course I know that GMs do not care about overall rating like certain Madden players. It makes the whole damn thing pointless though. It is arbitrary and I have a hard time believing that professional scouts would manipulate data in this way. Going back to the draft, sure that may be different, but it is my opinion that abilities, injury concerns, and character should all be separate. If some front offices combine those categories to arrive at a final grade that is understandable but they do not arbitrarily drop the football grade.

I agree 100% with this

# 1296 ggsimmonds @ 07/29/14 02:21 AM

One thing I should add, this is not about your Madden ratings per se and whether or not I would use them. You are a scientist so you should understand this better than most. You probably do not plan on going for a swim in lava flow but you still want to know how hot it is and how it works. I am not attacking or arguing your methods for rating guys. It is about the scouts. If you took it on yourself to change the rating to illustrate a player's circumstance that is different and understandable.

# 1297 DCEBB2001 @ 07/29/14 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggsimmonds


	One thing I should add, this is not about your Madden ratings per se and whether or not I would use them. You are a scientist so you should understand this better than most. You probably do not plan on going for a swim in lava flow but you still want to know how hot it is and how it works. I am not attacking or arguing your methods for rating guys. It is about the scouts. If you took it on yourself to change the rating to illustrate a player's circumstance that is different and understandable.

Hey man, I just interpolate the data based on what I was told about it when I started the project. If I could give you the contact info for the front office of the team or the person who supplies it, I would, and you could take this up with them. In your hypothetical situation, what is more likely to happen is that the GM would simply take the player off of their board. What would happen is the GM could see how the player graded individually in each skill then look at the data as to why his overall grade has been lowered. These guys are pretty smart; they know what to look for.

The real problem here is that Madden ONLY allows us to manage the OVR rating by the attributes. We can't "tag" a player as injured or suspended, leave his attributes alone, and then see his OVR drop as it is supposed to (like in the scouting data).

Now, I am quite tired of the back and forth on this and it is getting quite off topic. So, let's move on. The banter back and forth is not being productive to the topic. This looped discussion will not change how the scouts rate their players. It will not change how I use their data. So, logically, all of this is for not. Let's get the thread back on topic please.

# 1298 DCEBB2001 @ 07/29/14 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charter04


	Hey Dan, have you ever considered also including traits in your system? I would love to know based on real data what those traits should be. Throws tight spiral, how often they take off running, pocket presence, big hitter.

I have a TON of trait data. The problem is it is all written out in text and not assigned a value. Multiply each report by about 70,000 players and you have a TON of work to do, which requires a ton of time...time I do not have.

# 1299 DCEBB2001 @ 07/29/14 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Quiet_Pro


	I could be wrong here, but my understanding is that there's like an algorithm that more accurately portrays the existing Madden ratings for players and teams. Would it be possible to just take a spreadsheet of the Madden ratings (spreadsheets are available once the ratings are released I believe), but take the spreadsheet, and feed that info into the algorithms and allow the computer to change everything over? Maybe it's not as easy as I think it is. (OR Maybe EA can hire Dan and have him work with Donny lol).

The problem is that the scouting data references different criteria (attributes) and formulas (the OVR calculation formula) to reach an OVR rating versus that in Madden. In fact, there are some attributes that either don't exist in Madden or Madden has some attributes that don't exist in the scouting data. For instance, there is no "balance" rating in Madden (which is a key attribute in the scouting data).

So the problem arises when converting one set of data to the other. Neither is mutually exclusive and exhaustive. I can pick out criteria that matches Madden and find attributes in Madden that match the scouting criteria, but there is not a 100% match amongst all criteria for all positions (like the "Clutch" grade for K's and the "Release In Time" grade for QBs). So, we have to ignore some and include others.

In addition, the scouts value certain criteria very differently than Madden does. Madden places a multiplier of 0.329 on THP, but the scouts only have a similar multiplier (or significance, if you will) of 0.16. That means that Madden values THP twice as much more than what the scouts value "Arm Strength" for the QB position. This automatically throws the equations off.

What EA needs to do is get a real scouting department involved that uses real data and real formulas. Then, they need to overhaul the ratings system based on the scouting variables and OVR scores. Only then will you see something close to 100% realism. FBG Ratings can use real data to interpolate Madden ratings based upon it, but as I said earlier, it won't match the scouting data 100%. If someone like me was brought in, we would have to, first and foremost, revamp the entire way that players are graded and rated. We can still use attributes and OVR ratings as forms of measure to differentiate between players, but we would have to make it mimic the data source.

So one must ask themselves, what data sources are EA-Tiburon/Donny Moore using and how well do they actually correlate to the Madden ratings we see in the game? From what I have heard they do a lot of youtube scouting, look at simple stats, and even use some PFF data (which I have pointed out in several topics are nearly useless for determining attributes, but are great at determining traits).

# 1300 DCEBB2001 @ 07/31/14 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michiganfan8620


	Whats up with the website right now? I noticed a bunch of players OVR calculations went way down compared to where they were a week ago, except a few players stayed the same. I'm not expecting 99 OVR guys, but seeing the best player at a position rated at 80 confuses me. I see Calvin Johnson at 97, Fitz at 92, and then AJ Green at 81, whats up with that? Did the OVR calculations change or something? I don't think there is that big of a gap between WR's. Same with LOLB, Tamba Hali is rated 97, the next best is Suggs with a 83. I don't think Hali is even the best LOLB in the league, let alone being 14 OVR higher than the next best guy.

I have a few people testing the Equal-Interval ratings method right now so they are producing test rosters. Based on PLAYMAKERS' findings from last year, these may give even better results. They also mimic the scouting data at a perfect 1:1 ratio as the mean-rating has been removed from every rating category. This method allows you to see how the scouts rated the players on a scale that is unbiased toward the mean. PLAYMAKERS posted some results on this last year in this thread with some vids as well. This is as close to the real distribution as I can get within Madden's OVR rating formulas. You will see way fewer 90+ ratings for attributes as originally intended. This is the system we ran last year to great success, albeit much debate.

« Previous 1 2…62 63 646566 67 68…76 77 Next »

More Links

FBGRatings Seeks to Recalibrate Madden Ratings, Change Game