Non-vulnerability single shot power is far too low. BJ Penn survived 20 knockdowns

[TheUFCVeteran]

Without even getting into response and stamina issues, how can anyone say that this game has the most realistic striking when a shot BJ Penn can withstand SIXTY-ONE left hands from a prime FW Conor McGregor? It doesn’t matter if he was fresh or outside of vulnerability, literally nobody should be able to survive that without going out cold. Not to mention that he’s tied for the worst chin at FW (83), so he should go out even quicker than what it should be like with guys who have decent chins.

Yes, there was an opportunity to finish the fight (even then, fighters can take way too much damage) but regardless, there is no way you can say it’s realistic that anyone can survive 20 knockdowns and 60+ max level rear straights (Conor’s deadliest weapon). They’d go out cold when they got hit after the third knockdown. Ngannou should absolutely dump truck everyone bar Stipe with one shot, but he doesn’t. My sub-80 chin Fedor survived 7 knockdowns and Arlovski, 12. That is insane.

You’d need obvious improvements to defensive mechanics and much more responsive controls along with UD3 sim style stamina, but that alone would make it much more true to life and realistic. You’d actually have to fear fighting a power striker on the feet rather than being able to take hundreds of shots no problem.

Below is a video of every left hand I landed on BJ. Profanity at the very end, but that’s it. For the record, I didn’t just throw one shot and wait 20 seconds for his health to come back. I was firing them off at a consistent rate, 1-2 left hands a second (except when BJ was knocked down).

[Gion]

I feel this was done to offset the large number of flat line KOs people were complaining about in the early life cycle. Pardon me if Im wrong but weren't people on here expressing the want for more TKOs instead of KOs to resemble real life?

[DaisukEasy]

I don't think that's an issue of single shot power being too low, except in the case of Ngannou, but he'd literally break the game if you made him realistic.


The problem with what you're showing, is that knockdown/stun states are calculated as singular events that occur in a vacuum. The game takes into account a fighter's health, the damage of the strike, the vulnerability based actions at that moment and the highest passed threshold at the instance the strike lands. As far as I can tell, nothing else matters.


Idea
A long lasting vulnerability increase after stunstates have passed.

When a fighter gets stunned, there should be a vulnerability value, proportional to the damage taken. Then have it lower as a function of time immediately after the stun state. For example:

Minor stun: 6 * 0,9^ax
Major stun: 8 * 0,91^ax
Alert KD: 20 * 0,99^ax

a, in this case, would be a value that represents some combination of heart, toughness and whatever durability stat you want to affect recovery rate. And the timer would represent increased damage taken in percentages.

This would mean that with a minor stun, it'll take a little over 21seconds to recover to the point where the vulnerability increase drops below 1%. Even though you're only wobbling around for 3 seconds or so.


And when a fighter suffers a major knockdown, but somehow somehow survives, it'll take close to 4 minutes of not getting rocked, before the vulnerability increase dips below 1%. In either case it would never be zero again, which means, getting hurt permanently makes you more susceptible to getting hurt worse.

That said, this kind of system would likely open up a whole new can of worms without a massive stamina overhaul, but it could solve this repeated KD issue.


Disclaimer
The values I used are most certainly not what anyone would want. They'd likely neither be realistic or balanced. They're just meant to get the idea across.

[Kingslayer04]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

I don't think that's an issue of single shot power being too low, except in the case of Ngannou, but he'd literally break the game if you made him realistic. The problem with what you're showing, is that knockdown/stun states are calculated as singular events that occur in a vacuum. The game takes into account a fighter's health, the damage of the strike, the vulnerability based actions at that moment and the highest passed threshold at the instance the strike lands. As far as I can tell, nothing else matters. Idea A long lasting vulnerability increase after stunstates have passed. When a fighter gets stunned, there should be a vulnerability value, proportional to the damage taken. Then have it lower as a function of time immediately after the stun state. For example: Minor stun: 6 * 0,9^ax Major stun: 8 * 0,91^ax Alert KD: 20 * 0,99^ax a, in this case, would be a value that represents some combination of heart, toughness and whatever durability stat you want to affect recovery rate. And the timer would represent increased damage taken in percentages. This would mean that with a minor stun, it'll take a little over 21seconds to recover to the point where the vulnerability increase drops below 1%. Even though you're only wobbling around for 3 seconds or so. And when a fighter suffers a major knockdown, but somehow somehow survives, it'll take close to 4 minutes of not getting rocked, before the vulnerability increase dips below 1%. In either case it would never be zero again, which means, getting hurt permanently makes you more susceptible to getting hurt worse. That said, this kind of system would likely open up a whole new can of worms without a massive stamina overhaul, but it could solve this repeated KD issue. Disclaimer The values I used are most certainly not what anyone would want. They'd likely neither be realistic or balanced. They're just meant to get the idea across.

Great post, where were you with those when I was campaigning for that kind of thing for about 2 years straight, lol. But yeah, definitely makes sense and I like it a lot. Like you said though, this would require a lot of tinkering and it's a very big change for them to introduce this late in the development cycle. I do hope they have implemented something along those lines anyway though.

[TheUFCVeteran]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

I don't think that's an issue of single shot power being too low, except in the case of Ngannou, but he'd literally break the game if you made him realistic. The problem with what you're showing, is that knockdown/stun states are calculated as singular events that occur in a vacuum. The game takes into account a fighter's health, the damage of the strike, the vulnerability based actions at that moment and the highest passed threshold at the instance the strike lands. As far as I can tell, nothing else matters. Idea A long lasting vulnerability increase after stunstates have passed. When a fighter gets stunned, there should be a vulnerability value, proportional to the damage taken. Then have it lower as a function of time immediately after the stun state. For example: Minor stun: 6 * 0,9^ax Major stun: 8 * 0,91^ax Alert KD: 20 * 0,99^ax a, in this case, would be a value that represents some combination of heart, toughness and whatever durability stat you want to affect recovery rate. And the timer would represent increased damage taken in percentages. This would mean that with a minor stun, it'll take a little over 21seconds to recover to the point where the vulnerability increase drops below 1%. Even though you're only wobbling around for 3 seconds or so. And when a fighter suffers a major knockdown, but somehow somehow survives, it'll take close to 4 minutes of not getting rocked, before the vulnerability increase dips below 1%. In either case it would never be zero again, which means, getting hurt permanently makes you more susceptible to getting hurt worse. That said, this kind of system would likely open up a whole new can of worms without a massive stamina overhaul, but it could solve this repeated KD issue. Disclaimer The values I used are most certainly not what anyone would want. They'd likely neither be realistic or balanced. They're just meant to get the idea across.

I do appreciate the effort you put into this post and it makes sense, but my point is, nobody should be able to take this amount of punishment. Conor’s left hand should sting HARD on one shot outside of vulnerability and low head health, and Ngannou needs to be realistic. It’d also slow the pace of the game down as rushing or throwing too many strikes would leave you liable to get countered and put down.

I’ve said it before but it mentions your point: defensive mechanics would need a big reworking and the controls would need be to much more responsive, but even with those three things alone would significantly increase the realism. The bottom line is, this should be a sports simulation, not a fighting game. At LEAST introduce a sim mode for offline and Quick Match (sim for ranked would be great too, but I doubt they’d ever do that because of matchmaking concerns).

I like the long lasting vulnerability idea, that could go a ways to improving it, too.

I dunno. I just believe that to make a great MMA game, it should be both extremely responsive and heavily centred around realism rather than designing it around competitive play as MMA is inherently unbalanced anyway (this doesn’t mean the game couldn’t be fair, look at UD3 for an example).

If you’re gonna take elements from a fighting game, take the response time and snappy controls. That’s my thoughts, anyway. But great post, man. I like the idea.

[oilersfan365]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gion

I feel this was done to offset the large number of flat line KOs people were complaining about in the early life cycle. Pardon me if Im wrong but weren't people on here expressing the want for more TKOs instead of KOs to resemble real life?

well they should not have listened to those idiots who want an arcade game. People who want an arcade game should do the people who want a sim game a solid and not buy the game. That is what street fighter and MK are for.

[TheRizzzle]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gion

I feel this was done to offset the large number of flat line KOs people were complaining about in the early life cycle. Pardon me if Im wrong but weren't people on here expressing the want for more TKOs instead of KOs to resemble real life?

Yes but one punch can still lead to the TKO sequence. I think people were complaining that someone getting their lights turned off doesn't happen as often as a ref stepping in because a fighter ain't defending themselves. They usually aren't out, they just can't stop getting beat up on.

And even then, we still have never truly had the ability to put someone away with one well timed punch at any given moment of the fight starting with the first second of the fight.

It's a tough ask, but MMA is a tough sport to replicate for a video game.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kingslayer04

Great post, where were you with those when I was campaigning for that kind of thing for about 2 years straight, lol.

I haven't played this game in a long *** time, so I missed all of that lol

Quote:

But yeah, definitely makes sense and I like it a lot. Like you said though, this would require a lot of tinkering and it's a very big change for them to introduce this late in the development cycle. I do hope they have implemented something along those lines anyway though.

We'll see.

If they do it right, it'll add to realism.

- Getting stunned becomes significantly more dangerous and would put you on the defensive for more than 3 seconds.
- Getting hurt badly at the end of a round carries negative effects into the next round (Adesanya vs Whittaker)


And if you combine that with stamina tweaks and a less black & white guard break system, there may finally be proper risk reward for trying to finish hurt opponents..

A man can dream xD