2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

**awg811** · 09-13-2019, 04:22 PM

2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

I pointed out the broken shot contest system during the demo before the game came out and was told that I was wrong or that it would be fixed by most people in here.

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**antdoggydogg** · 09-13-2019, 05:30 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

I actually thought that was a good contest in your sample video. Yea he didn't get the block but Simmons still towered over Jrue Holiday and made it hard to get the shot in. I think it's all contextual. A missed block attempt can still lead to a strong contest, but there are times when players go for a block attempt and get themselves out of position which should lead to a low contest. But that's not what I saw in the clip, gonna read through your link now

**Kushmir** · 09-13-2019, 06:07 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Originally posted by awg811

I pointed out the broken shot contest system during the demo before the game came out and was told that I was wrong or that it would be fixed by most people in here.

I remember it well...its what made me pay attention. You'll notice i'm saying the same things here that I said then.

Originally posted by antdoggydogg

I actually thought that was a good contest in your sample video. Yea he didn't get the block but Simmons still towered over Jrue Holiday and made it hard to get the shot in. I think it's all contextual. A missed block attempt can still lead to a strong contest, but there are times when players go for a block attempt and get themselves out of position which should lead to a low contest. But that's not what I saw in the clip, gonna read through your link now

No that was me. I agree my timing was good but don't we want block and contest to have separate functions? in the piece I ask if Contest is necessary if missed blocks yield the highest value contests? Harris isn't a shot-blocker but he is 6'9". My whole take is that we want a better future where we can quickly contest shots, and where we can draw fouls on guys that try to block jump shots:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tgYVxgnpKsc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZpN7X4KKUq8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

We don't have that right now--and we should. The current system rewards and encourages and rewards the block button. Right now there's almost no use for contest.

**Kushmir** · 09-14-2019, 11:09 AM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

A good example of a few R-Stick Layup contests (its important the defender animate alone) I mention in the piece:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0f6UuKdkGqU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VuE15syeUDQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

**Kushmir** · 09-15-2019, 01:23 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

This 1% Contest was good but gameplay can't default to Neutral Outcomes when guys mistime blocks. It has to have a mixture of fouls to keep guys honest.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vX722OxVFx0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If Klay was a big Green's having to wait for Draymond to "clear" sets me up to be blocked. There has to be risk for missing blocks.

**cvantu** · 09-15-2019, 04:47 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

The R Stick shot contesting works, but I am still finding out the logic behind it. Obviously distance matters (and I believe it needs to be a bit adjusted because you need to be nearly standing on the shooters toes for good contests), but maybe you can help verify this with me. I am finding that, when guarding a shooter, if you hold the R Stick and stick with your man, it is like it raises the contest rating the longer you hold while engaged defensively (like it is filling up an invisible meter). Remember, just holding the R Stick will automatically contest a shot when it is taken. I've been holding the stick until the ball handler moves, then let go of the stick to keep footing, and hold the R Stick again when I feel appropriate. It seems to give better contest results.

As for the shot contest by tapping R Stick up? I find it mostly worthless. Per usual, it is laggy to perform, and the animation is locked leaving you stationed until the animation ends.

**Kushmir** · 09-15-2019, 05:47 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Originally posted by cvantu

I am finding that, when guarding a shooter, if you hold the R Stick and stick with your man, it is like it raises the contest rating the longer you hold while engaged defensively (like it is filling up an invisible meter). Remember, just holding the R Stick will automatically contest a shot when it is taken. I've been holding the stick until the ball handler moves, then let go of the stick to keep footing, and hold the R Stick again when I feel appropriate. It seems to give better contest results.

As for the shot contest by tapping R Stick up? I find it mostly worthless. Per usual, it is laggy to perform, and the animation is locked leaving you stationed until the animation ends.

Yes it does seems to make the contest rating improve. Tapping right stick isn't worthless. It just pales in comparison to the contest quality of pressing block......even if you miss. [emoji58]

**cvantu** · 09-15-2019, 06:53 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Originally posted by Kushmir

Yes it does seems to make the contest rating improve. Tapping right stick isn't worthless. It just pales in comparison to the contest quality of pressing block......even if you miss. [emoji58]

I find that just holding the R Stick works best for most scenerios, especially jump shots. Tapping the R Stick up seems to work well in many in-paint scenerios. I think the tapping function is worthless for jump shots imo.

**AndreSwagassi86** · 09-15-2019, 10:03 PM

2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Ive brought this up before and this is all based off real life principles.

Jumping up and attempting a block is the highest form of shot contesting. It also generates the highest risk / reward

Reward being a block
Risk being a foul ( body contact, making contact with your hands etc)

The right stick in 2K is the lower form of contesting , hands up contesting. Low risk of a foul , you chances of a block unless height comes into play.

Putting a hand in a defenders face doesn’t affect shooters very much , of course unless there is a height advantage as the defender.

Ask yourself this , which impedes shooting form and vision of a shooter when the defender is contesting more? A whole body in your way and a hand aiming for the block , or just a hand in the face?

I’ve played ball all my life , and a hand in my face isn’t doing anything to throw off my shot.

Looking at the video originally posted , the defender jumping at the shot although missing the block , it’s still the strongest method of contesting a shot there for generating a high percentage of contest, that’s basketball.

There’s a video I saw where the coverage percentages are disputed.

But there’s a factor that was missed , the video where the shot was 41% covered they were in front of the Shooter... that’s the coverage ... in the video with Lebron his missed block pulls him behind the shooter. That’s the reason for low coverage percentage.

I have to say I personally am impressed because that’s 2K looking to take into account angles.

Watching all videos that argue the system I have to say I disagree with.

For 1 we have to take into account it says “covered” in which regardless of the block is missed the defenders are still bodied up on the shooters going vertical so they are still strongly contesting the shot.

I would be inclined to agree if it was inconsistent but through my own testing , height and angles play a part also.

It’s also gotta be realized that Right stick contesting isn’t the strongest form of contesting a shot , whether in real life or in 2K. If you have the height it does increase the strength and keeps the risk of fouling low.

I know it’s going to be argued and that’s ok because everyone has their own desires for the gameplay. But in comparison to being on the court in real life I enjoy it. Forces me to play smart defense but still carries the risks and rewards.

When I’m playing defense , it’s all anticipation for me. Generally I hold the right stick up when I feel a shot maybe taken.

If I’m closing out on defense I’m ususlly attempting a jump block because right stick contesting is in its weakest form when closing out on a shooter.

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**Kushmir** · 09-15-2019, 11:27 PM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

1. Balance over Realism. Always, Always, Always. Gaming can't replicate all the real world/law of physics ways that sport works...its job is to minimize exploits and create a competitive platform for users of equal skill level.

Originally posted by AndreSwagassi86

It’s also gotta be realized that Right stick contesting isn’t the strongest form of contesting a shot , whether in real life or in 2K. If you have the height it does increase the strength and keeps the risk of fouling low.

Then we agree. An actual block IS the highest form of contesting a shot, as it literally erases the shot attempt. We also agree that a great Contest should have a value of maybe 50-60%, Its more of a conservative way to bother a shot than anything else...so it can't have this huge reward.

A missed block however? Is worthless. It doesn't have but minimal contest value and it certainly can't in the rock, paper, scissors world of gaming. Doing so puts the offensive user in a classic No-Win-Scenario where if the defensive user's timing is good he gets a block, if its NOT he still get a 80% Contest.

That might not be the worst design idea i've ever seen....but its close.

**AndreSwagassi86** · 09-15-2019, 11:52 PM

2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Originally posted by Kushmir

1. Balance over Realism. Always, Always, Always. Gaming can't replicate all the real world/law of physics ways that sport works...its job is to minimize exploits and create a competitive platform for users of equal skill level.

Then we agree. An actual block IS the highest form of contesting a shot, as it literally erases the shot attempt. A missed block however? Is worthless. It doesn't have but minimal contest value and it certainly can't in the rock, paper, scissors world of gaming. Doing so puts the offensive user in a classic No-Win-Scenario where if the defensive user's timing is good he gets a block, if its NOT he still get a 80% Contest.

That might not be the worst design idea i've ever seen....but its close.

A missed block is just missing the hand contact with the ball. It’s still the strongest form of contesting the shot as it’s the defender elevating off the floor which if you’re in front of the defender you’re impeding vision possibly altering a shot.

You should also see that it’s giving a percentage of coverage on the shot it’ll say __%covered because it’s interior shots ... which now takes into account that coverage can alter the shots.

If you take close out jump shots it’ll read as ___% contested

Honestly it’s why I dig the system. The variables

If I miss a block but I’m still smothering you on defense the coverage percentage is still gonna be high because the coverage is still there , the shot is still contested , the block is just missed.

Like in one of your vids for example. Against the hawks. You shot with Embiid , got the rebound , pump faked but the defender also recovered from the missed block still contesting the shot and still bodied up in coverage.

I disagree with the balance over realism sentiments if a medium is present , because understand what the game is trying to replicate is very important.

But in this case in my honest opinion this isn’t unbalanced as a missed block doesn’t necessarily mean the shot isn’t contested anymore.

A block attempt whether successful or missed still alters shots, body contact alters shots which is why it still registers as high coverage/contest

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**AndreSwagassi86** · 09-16-2019, 12:15 AM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Let me also state that I’m not at all attempting to dispute or down your views and opinions as I know everyone has different desires to their gameplay experience , just wanted to provide a different perspective and deeper dive into the contest/coverage system

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**Kushmir** · 09-16-2019, 12:28 AM

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Originally posted by AndreSwagassi86

If I miss a block but I’m still smothering you on defense the coverage percentage is still gonna be high because the coverage is still there , the shot is still contested , the block is just missed.

Nope. We disagree. That's horrible design. Its the equivalent of saying "Sure you can go for the big hit stick tackle--but if you miss it should still make him slow down." Nope. Not in gaming with Paper, Rock and Scissors style balance. You kinda have to guess right.

Originally posted by AndreSwagassi86

Like in one of your vids for example. Against the hawks. You shot with Embiid, got the rebound , pump faked but the defender also recovered from the missed block still contesting the shot and still bodied up in coverage.

This one? Where both of these guys miss and I go up when they land? [emoji23] You think they should get some kind of like tertiary reward for like, being in the area? And their missing a block should what? Still disrupt my shot? WOW.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jSKkvi_9p8w" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Quick story about that line of thinking: Steal attempts made your offensive player react in NBA like 2K6-2K7. Guys would swipe and you'd go into this animation where you're turning to protect yourself...this happened every time. Guess what cheesers did when you were about to throw passes for catch/shoot? SWIPE at the ball, your player reacted, they weren't called for a foul and it threw the timing of the whole play off.

Then there's the whole rewarding failure thing.

A better idea might be focusing on the downsides of bad block timing than finding a way the defender can still benefit from guessing wrong. Doesn't work--always ends badly. You play strictly offline, yes?

**AndreSwagassi86** · 09-16-2019, 01:57 AM

2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Originally posted by Kushmir

Nope. We disagree. That's horrible design. Its the equivalent of saying "Sure you can go for the big hit stick tackle--but if you miss it should still make him slow down." Nope. Not in gaming with Paper, Rock and Scissors style balance. You kinda have to guess right

This one? Where both of these guys miss and I go up when they land? [emoji23] You think they should get some kind of like tertiary reward for like, being in the area? And their missing a block should what? Still disrupt my shot? WOW.

Quick story about that line of thinking: Steal attempts made your offensive player react in NBA like 2K6-2K7. Guys would swipe and you'd go into this animation where you're turning to protect yourself...this happened every time. Guess what cheesers did when you were about to throw passes for catch/shoot? SWIPE at the ball, your player reacted, they weren't called for a foul and it threw the timing of the whole play off.

Then there's the whole rewarding failure thing.

A better idea might be focusing on the downsides of bad block timing than finding a way the defender can still benefit from guessing wrong. Doesn't work--always ends badly. You play strictly offline, yes?

Not quite a fair comparison at all.

A big hit is a absolute tackle , you miss the big hit you miss the tackle.

A block isn’t the absolute form of contest.
A block is the defender making contact with the ball knocking out of its path to the rim. Missing the block is still contesting the shot.
Just like not going for a block at all but still being in the space of the defender with your hand up is still a form of contest.

But In that very video after missing the block the defender still gets up at a second time with his hand raised , still in your space , and is vertical so there is no foul, which is still contesting the shot .....If he didn’t extend his arm and jump a second time then you’re 100% correct.
You can still block a shot without leaving your feet tho

Your idea of thinking is basically , “you missed the block so my shot should go in”

But that’s disregarding , position, arm extension and the other variables that would cause the shooter to miss the shot.

This isn’t rewarding for bad timing. If you had room on the shots taken I would for surely understand , but you’re taking shots with a defender going up on you and saying because the ball is out of reach of the defenders hand and he missed the block ... he is not contesting , covering or altering the shot also and that’s just not true in any sense, real life or in a video game.

This is where the balance over realism argument isn’t agreed with also. Because if we go out and re-enact that same that same video you’ll very well see how it’s still a contested shot.

If we’re looking for “sim” basketball this is it right here.... it can’t be , “I want it to be in comparison to real life except.......”

I play all game modes , PNO, park , career MYGM etc to answer your last question.

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2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

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