Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series - Operation Sports Forums

Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

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  • Bornindamecca
    Books Nelson Simnation
    • Jul 2007
    • 10919

    #1

    Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

    In his recent feedback for 2k18, Dman mentioned that the court feels too small. In recent years, the devs have assured us that the court is to scale.

    They're both right.

    If you take a picture from multiple camera angles and make the measurements, getting rid of all visual illusions(remember, wide angle lenses make NBA photos often unreliable), you might find that the court to player ratio in NBA 2k is visually very close to scale. The problem is, you can't SEE the entire 2k model. We all know that there is an invisible collision area around the player and the ball. So while they LOOK a certain size, they are in fact bigger than they appear. Imagine if in real life, all of the players were in clear fat suits. This is what 2k actually is simulating.

    One of the key differences is that in real life, the trunk of your body is your main collision area. The extremities are quite thin and small by comparison, taking up very little space without the addition of skill to add accuracy to the placement of your arms and hands. In 2k and virtually every other sports game, there is no way to really simulate this accuracy yet. The devs have to generalize and approximate the effect of arms and hands. Sports games aren't yet precise enough to say "you were off by a pixel, your feet were in the right place, but you were 1 frame off when you pressed steal."

    That would be way too punishing, especially once you add in stuff like lag/latency.

    The other major problem is movement. Not only do the players have these larger collision areas for you to have to avoid, but you have many less steps to use to navigate these areas. The most obvious example is trying to take a shot at a specific spot on the court, be it the elbow, the 3pt line or anywhere else. The locomotion just doesn't allow for steps small enough for a high level of precision.

    This not only makes the court feel smaller, it ACTUALLY MAKES the court smaller. So instead of getting every millimeter out of the 94 feet to use, you only get six inches to a foot at a time.

    So now in addition to the fat suits, put giant shoes on your 2k models. Even though you can't see this, this is what you're actually playing with.

    Here's the issue: While I see some possible solutions, I don't think there's a true fix at this point in our current technology. If you go too far in the other direction, defense would be absolutely impossible. Out of everything, giving us more precise steps in the locomotion engine would help, but I'm pretty sure that this is a really tough balance to strike with the tech we have right now.

    It's not that other games don't have this problem, it's that most games don't have the speed and balance of contact/no-contact that basketball demands in such a tight space with such mobile characters. It's a unique combination of obstacles.

    This isn't to excuse or defend 2k or back up or go against Dman, but rather to hopefully add some complexity to the knee jerk reaction of "make the courts bigger, 2k!!!"

    --Books
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  • VAWereWolf65
    MVP
    • Jul 2016
    • 1734

    #2
    Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

    Totally agree with this, but if you've ever played 2v2 or 1v1v1 in MyPark, those courts definitely need to be made bigger.

    I'll have a player spam X until they get me to do that animation where you pick up the ball and stumble backwards, and since there's very little room behind the three point line I step out of bounds and get a turnover

    Or, I'll get pushed but since they don't have blocking or charging fouls called in mypark, my player will just fly out of bounds because he got stuck in an animation which should've been a blocking foul on the defender, but it doesn't get called
    VAWereWolf65's Custom Draft Class Thread - 2k19 (Xbox One)

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    • Shiu
      Rookie
      • Nov 2016
      • 13

      #3
      Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

      Great information. Collisions are hard to get right while maintaining good animations, especially if you also have to deal with latency.
      With that said, I'm certain collisions could be improved in the game, but it's not trivial by any means.

      I work with software for game animation and have spent a great deal of hours pulling my hair out trying to solve similar issues.

      Comment

      • 23
        yellow
        • Sep 2002
        • 66469

        #4
        Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

        If this issue is close to being solved one day because I look for the movement to be changed at some point one day, maybe not today but it NEEDS TO BE, watch and see how much more crispy running offenses will be and how the spacing really opens up.

        It hit me the other night playing 2k17 and it's something Da_Czar has been saying for awhile now. When it hits you, it's like a ton of bricks.

        Great Great post!

        Comment

        • bateman11
          MVP
          • Jul 2004
          • 1729

          #5
          Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

          Excellent way of breaking this issue down, Born. This is spot on.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          PSN: rose2kobe24

          Comment

          • The 24th Letter
            ERA
            • Oct 2007
            • 39373

            #6
            Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

            Great post.

            I just dont know how this can ever be remedied without feeling restricted on the user side. I'll leave that up to the guys thay are paid to do it, lol

            I remember Live '09 tried to maximize spacing by slowing down your close out speed...almost like an animation that took over...looked great but didnt feel great.

            Sent from my SM-G955U using Operation Sports mobile app

            Comment

            • strawberryshortcake
              MVP
              • Sep 2009
              • 2438

              #7
              Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

              Originally posted by The 24th Letter
              Great post.

              I just dont know how this can ever be remedied without feeling restricted on the user side. I'll leave that up to the guys thay are paid to do it, lol

              I remember Live '09 tried to maximize spacing by slowing down your close out speed...almost like an animation that took over...looked great but didnt feel great.


              Sent from my SM-G955U using Operation Sports mobile app

              Blue part.
              2k actually has this "slow down" / "delayed" close out animation as well, which I'm not a big fan of. You see the open shooter, and you push the stick to close out to contest jump shots, but there's a small delay. Go into replay mode and you'll see how the close out player slows down for a brief second sort of like there's an invisible wall or you're running in quicksand. Wish 2k would remove this gameplay component.
              Fixes
              NBA2k Defense AI,Footplant, Gameplay
              MLB Show Pitching/throwing
              Madden/Live Animations Walking, Throwing

              Comment

              • 23
                yellow
                • Sep 2002
                • 66469

                #8
                Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                Slow down is not what hes talking about though.

                Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

                Comment

                • The 24th Letter
                  ERA
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 39373

                  #9
                  Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                  Not quite what I was talking about either..but it was more of a side note/ example of an attempted solution than anything.

                  Dont want to veer off subject


                  Sent from my SM-G955U using Operation Sports mobile app

                  Comment

                  • strawberryshortcake
                    MVP
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 2438

                    #10
                    Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                    Originally posted by 23
                    Slow down is not what hes talking about though.

                    Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

                    My bad then, it simply sounded like the same gameplay effect. Then disregard my comment. Never played Live 09. If someone would elaborate, that would be great. If not, that's fine too. Not a big deal.
                    Fixes
                    NBA2k Defense AI,Footplant, Gameplay
                    MLB Show Pitching/throwing
                    Madden/Live Animations Walking, Throwing

                    Comment

                    • 23
                      yellow
                      • Sep 2002
                      • 66469

                      #11
                      Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                      Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                      Not quite what I was talking about either..but it was more of a side note/ example of an attempted solution than anything.

                      Dont want to veer off subject


                      Sent from my SM-G955U using Operation Sports mobile app
                      Nah that was a band aid for sure.

                      Its going to take a completely different movement system.

                      Not to say this current one cant work well enough for us on these gen of consoles but as tech advances it should be looked into

                      Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

                      Comment

                      • The 24th Letter
                        ERA
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 39373

                        #12
                        Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                        Originally posted by strawberryshortcake
                        My bad then, it simply sounded like the same gameplay effect. Then disregard my comment. Never played Live 09. If someone would elaborate, that would be great. If not, that's fine too. Not a big deal.
                        I'm not sure anyone could describe it, or if you'd even be able to tell by watching a video...you'd have to experience it..

                        It was an interesting take...

                        Sent from my SM-G955U using Operation Sports mobile app

                        Comment

                        • 23
                          yellow
                          • Sep 2002
                          • 66469

                          #13
                          Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                          Originally posted by strawberryshortcake
                          My bad then, it simply sounded like the same gameplay effect. Then disregard my comment. Never played Live 09. If someone would elaborate, that would be great. If not, that's fine too. Not a big deal.
                          Irl you'll notice more feet shuffling and more steps taken than actual long strides you see in games but then again these are video games.

                          It helps for us to remember that but when we do get there it's going to be glorious in many areas.

                          I do think 2k has done well enough in at least a couple of past games....or rather tried to get better even if it didn't turn out that way.

                          Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

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                          • Smirkin Dirk
                            All Star
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 5170

                            #14
                            Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                            Well said Books.

                            Also the amount of space needed for many animations to play out further reduces the size of the court. It takes about 5 feet of space to pull off a behind the back.

                            It isn't a total solution, but a precision modifier (similar to FIFA) when running the PnR may help. Holding the triggers would allow the ball handler to maintain speed but take smaller steps and get more precise directions. The trade off is the direction stick is more sensitive.
                            2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

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                            • Vni
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 14831

                              #15
                              Re: Why the Court Feels Too Small in the 2k Series

                              Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                              I remember Live '09 tried to maximize spacing by slowing down your close out speed...almost like an animation that took over...looked great but didnt feel great.
                              If there was proper momentum in the game the 2K community would complain about the lack of control but that's how it is in real life. A defender going the wrong way is going to get beat easily everytime. Live 09 may have had it right (hardly ever played that game).

                              I wish when running at full speed it'd take at least 3 steps to get to a full stop. That would open the game immensely and give ball movement it's proper place in the game. I wish it was more about attacking late rotation like it is in real life. Fatigue could even play a factor in how long you take to reach full speed and get to a full stop. Would make everything a lot more organic and true to life.

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