Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels). - Operation Sports Forums

Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

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  • papinho81
    Pro
    • Feb 2015
    • 673

    #1

    Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

    Recently, we discovered that we, as game users, we can modify the default ATTACK/DEFENSE level the CPU is starting a game with. You know, it is the small coloured bar that can be BLUE, GREEN (default for us as a USER), ORANGE. With the game development it can sometimes become DARK BLUE (CPU defending a win or a tie) or even RED (CPU needing to score by any mean for whatever the reason).


    The problem:
    This little bar has long been a source of frustration for many PES 2017 gamers. Konami, possibly driven by the intention of providing gamers entertaining end to end games (REF: Jim Beglin commentary in the game) decided to assign to the majority of teams in the game the rather extreme configuration ORANGE/BLUE.

    This decision, intentional or not, has been very effective at making games really end to end as ORANGE in attack seems to lead to very aggressive and rather direct offensive mind (needs further exploration and better description) while BLUE in defence lead to midfielder dropping in numbers in front of their defensive line. As the change between an ATTACK attitude and a DEFENCE attitude occurs instantly, when a team loose possession (ATT-->DEF) or regain possession (DEF-->ATT) the ORANGE/BLUE configuration as led players controlled by the CPU to be caught in the very schizophrenic attitude of projecting in attack as quickly as possible then projecting as quickly as possible in defence.

    To the disenchantment of many players, this type of oppositely minded behavior has led to the scarcity/absence of midfield battle, which is for many football fans a very important component of this sport. This is because CPU players tend to retreat too quickly in their defensive half/third, with little interest in regaining the ball upper on the pitch.


    Solutions:
    I recently found that by copying the tactical formation from one team to another the team that received the tactic (paste) would also inherit the default ATTACK/DEFENSE levels from the reference team (copy) simply using the SAVE/LOAD options in Game Plan, Data Management. The drawback of this approach is that you have to know what team have the ATTACK/DEFENSE level you are looking for. This information can also be accessed for PC users using a team editor tool such as DINO editor as the default ATTACK/DEFENSE levels seems to correspond to the “Numbers in attack/Numbers in defence” (Few/Med/Many) that was editable by the gamer in previous version edition of the game but not in 2017 copies despite being visible with editor tools.

    In parallel, Matt10 found that you can also change ATTACK/DEFENSE level of any team going to Support Settings --> Go to simple tactics --> Simple tactic settings finally choosing among the various simple tactics available each of them corresponding to a particular ATTACK/DEFENSE level that Matt mapped already. You can find the full instruction on how to do that on his youtube video:
    Spoiler



    We need you:
    So now we know we can change and how to change the default ATTACK/DEFENSE of teams, but we are left with 9 possible configurations that we need to understand in order to use them wisely when making a particular team tactic.

    The goal of this thread is to try describing and understanding these various ATTACK/DEFENSE configurations. How it affects players positioning, players aggressiveness, team cohesion,ect…?
    Do the ATTACK and DEFENSE levels can be treated independently or do they interact? How? ect?

    Ultimately this exploratory work should improve our decision making when we want to assign a default ATTACK/DEFENSE level to a particular team, whether it is a possession team or counter attack team (or any kind of variation).

    Please share your thoughts, feelings, evidences and experience with the various ATTACK/DEFENSE levels.



    Here is where you can find each of the 9 possible configurations to compare using the SAVE/LOAD solution.
    (Legend: Orange-->O, Green-->G, Blue-->B; ATTACK/DEFENSE):

    O/O:
    --> Brazil, Chili, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Cameroon,
    Montpellier... (It is not very common for club)
    O/G:--> Barcelona, Fiorentina, Lazio, Betis Seville ,Mexico, Japan...
    O/B: Every single Premier League team and many other:
    --> Real Madrid, PSG, Benfica, Porto, Schalke, Inter, AC Milan ect...

    G/O: Colombia, USA (extremely rare)
    G/G: Real Sociedad, Dortmund, Many European national teams such as Germany, Italy, France, England, ect...
    G/B: Espanyol Barcelona, Celta Vigo, Chievo Verona, Roda JC...

    B/O: ID:2293 (several fake teams)
    B/G: Mallorca, Koln (Id:199), Zurich (ID:1386), ID:2255, ID:2348, (Lot of fake teams)
    B/B: Monaco, Marseille, Sevilla, Greece, Portugal...

    Should we take the scarcity/absence of B/O and B/G in "real teams" as an indication of their anomalies?
    Last edited by papinho81; 03-28-2017, 04:11 AM.
  • DirtyCobra
    Pro
    • Mar 2009
    • 620

    #2
    Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

    Fantastic thread. Very interesting to see How this will work.

    Comment

    • Tinker
      Rookie
      • Jan 2016
      • 68

      #3
      Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

      I couldn't play PES for several days, but it seems today I will, so.. I would like to see how G/G, G/O and O/O plays as that would, at least theoretically, seem to be most balanced settings.

      Comment

      • papinho81
        Pro
        • Feb 2015
        • 673

        #4
        Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

        Originally posted by Tinker
        I couldn't play PES for several days, but it seems today I will, so.. I would like to see how G/G, G/O and O/O plays as that would, at least theoretically, seem to be most balanced settings.
        Please do mate! The more people we get involved the faster, we will come to a consensus (if possible of course).

        It would be nice to see if some configurations are always superior to others.
        For example it is quite obvious that O/O makes everything more intense to use Matt words. But does it also expose the team to through balls and/or quick counter attack?

        Also as you mentioned in the impression thread, and if the "Numbers in attack"/"Numbers in defense" correspond to the attack levels (I have no doubt it does), klashman tutorial is a may be a good starting point.

        This guide is used not just to recreate real life tactics used by teams all over the world for PES 2015, this is useful for everyone ...

        Comment

        • papinho81
          Pro
          • Feb 2015
          • 673

          #5
          Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

          Here are two short videos comparing the positioning of side midfielders on replays.

          Blue/Bue:
          Spoiler


          Orange/Orange:
          Spoiler


          On the first video the SMF is following the man with the ball while trying to reach its defensive position which seems to force the FB to step up.
          In the second video the two SMF are following the the defensive situation from some distance and we clearly see them stopping their run before reaching their defensive third. In this particular case they might have stop because their seeing the keeper is getting the ball.
          But in many other instance I have seen the SMF with O/O getting involved in the last third only when the defensive situation last for some time.


          In this second set of video we see pretty much the same situation once with Blue/Blue and once with Orange/Orange

          B/B:
          Spoiler


          O/O:
          Spoiler


          In the B/B video the midfielder try to resist but their retreat instinct is stronger, the CAM makes a double hesitation, he steps up but as soon as he realizes the CF will do the job he retreats.
          In the O/O video they also seem to want to go back but there is 3 men keeping their high position, also the others are concerned about where the ball is played almost ready to jump to make an interception. Seeing they can do nothing they retreat and Cervi goes to mark its man.



          Also on B/B Benfica defense often formed a line with 6 men involved in defense. This never happened when I played them in G/G or O/O.
          Finally, Benfica possession and pass accuracy stats increased with warmer colors, B/B having particularly low possession stats.
          Sometimes I feel like cpu build up is calmer on G/G but it also send the ball back from time to time on O/O.

          Overall B/B felt particularly weak compared to G/G and O/O. I am not sure if O/O is superior to G/G.



          As a summary I would say that:

          B/B seems to suit a very defensive play style with little interest in getting the ball and a strong will to have numbers to get a compact defensive block.

          G/G: seems to me quite balanced. It might suit team that do not have particularly marked offensive or defensive styles.

          O/O: many players are getting involved in the offensive play and the pressing high up pitch (particularly striking on free kicks, the SMFs mark your FBs). I didn't find yet any particular weakness in defense. It might suit well very offensive teams that make use of the gegenpress.

          Comment

          • Tinker
            Rookie
            • Jan 2016
            • 68

            #6
            Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

            That's very detailed!

            Could it be that B/B should be reserved for defensive teams that have Long ball attacking style? Otherwise with Short pass they would pass the ball in their half without much attacking intentions.

            I remember putting attacking numbers to Few in PES2015 and having short pass was a no no: AI players would just kick the ball among themselves.

            Comment

            • papinho81
              Pro
              • Feb 2015
              • 673

              #7
              Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

              Originally posted by Tinker
              That's very detailed!

              Could it be that B/B should be reserved for defensive teams that have Long ball attacking style? Otherwise with Short pass they would pass the ball in their half without much attacking intentions.

              I remember putting attacking numbers to Few in PES2015 and having short pass was a no no: AI players would just kick the ball among themselves.
              Actually, despite I had them set as a possession team Benfica attempted several time long balls to their attackers. I didn't see them passing more the ball at the back.
              So yeah, it could suit Long ball teams such as Sunderland or Burnley.

              Of course it needs more testing.

              I am streaming, testing Monaco with G/O, if you want to join:
              Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.


              Edit:
              Really liked what I have seen from Monaco on G/O. It suits well their style of play with a high press but not necessarily sending a high numbers of players forward.
              Last edited by papinho81; 03-28-2017, 12:51 PM.

              Comment

              • papinho81
                Pro
                • Feb 2015
                • 673

                #8
                Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                On the continuity of the test I did with Monaco, I tried G/O for Barca but it was not working well. FBs took too much time to join the attack as did the CM leading to a Barca without tooth and depth in their play. I then switched them to O/O and it was wayyyyyyy better. You can have a look at it on my archived video on twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131794786
                Barca on O/O starts around 1:40:00.

                Comment

                • RoyceDa59
                  Chillin
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 3830

                  #9
                  Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                  Great thread Pap, I still feel like G/G & O/O is the way to go for most teams. Still trying to figure out what is best for Long Ball teams.

                  Comment

                  • papinho81
                    Pro
                    • Feb 2015
                    • 673

                    #10
                    Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                    Originally posted by RoyceDa59
                    Great thread Pap, I still feel like G/G & O/O is the way to go for most teams. Still trying to figure out what is best for Long Ball teams.
                    Thanks Royce!
                    I am curious to read your thoughts about the different configs.
                    It is still early but I agree G/G might suit well conservative team and O/O more aggressive teams.
                    Don't forget to give a try to intermediate configs like G/O with Monaco it worked very very well.

                    Also I am wandering what to do with O/B should we treat it as a plague or do you see any team it might still suit the play style (Chelsea?)?

                    Comment

                    • RoyceDa59
                      Chillin
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 3830

                      #11
                      Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                      Originally posted by papinho81
                      Thanks Royce!
                      I am curious to read your thoughts about the different configs.
                      It is still early but I agree G/G might suit well conservative team and O/O more aggressive teams.
                      Don't forget to give a try to intermediate configs like G/O with Monaco it worked very very well.

                      Also I am wandering what to do with O/B should we treat it as a plague or do you see any team it might still suit the play style (Chelsea?)?
                      Honestly, I am not using O/B level anymore for teams. I think many of the issues we were running into with tactics were due to that level. So far I like the way Bayern and Dortmund play on O/O but I am curious how long ball teams like Leipzig, Leicester and Athletic Club play with G/B tactic. I will try and test it this weekend.

                      Comment

                      • dmendenhall_9
                        Rookie
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 260

                        #12
                        Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                        Wow. So much good work here. If you are concerned about midfielders not dropping back to defend you can give the players the Track Back skills. I really want to try O/O with my edits for players (Marking, Track Back, etc.). With this discovery, we can see that all the elements are there to make this game really good (I would say it is just above average out of the box and even with edits it is not in excellent range). It is just too bad that editing can be so difficult and time-consuming. Konami should take the position of being the most easily editable sports game (they have a good start already) and find a way to make customization easier. It is what players want (lots of customization in NBA, NH: and MLB games not to mention the success of Minecraft) and would give them an advantage over FIFA.

                        My perfect game would allow me to quickly and easily edit formations (no fluid, too much work), strategies, player skills, and attack levels. I can dream, can't I?
                        Twitter - mendy_9
                        PSN - dmendenhall_9
                        Twitch - dmendenhall_9

                        Comment

                        • kilay
                          Rookie
                          • Nov 2016
                          • 140

                          #13
                          Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                          Great findings Pap, after Matt discover I thought also that about tactics (save/load method) but i not tried, so now i've to rework all the tactics, and after my update (i have changed all the tactics with save/load method ignoring this ATT/DEF behavior) this is really difficult... I've to switch to default some team and rebuild all the 500 tacts...

                          I think to change just some team that really require a fix... unfortunately Monaco is been the base from a lot of 4-3-3, a damn B/B.
                          Anyway there are worst A/D level than B/B , so just test,test,test, and again test... Probably i've lost my social life .....

                          ANd I'm also interested to tweaks with DINO the few/med/many slider, but i've to try over a clean db to test, and i've to research where is the relative byte of the tactics written inside the edit file.
                          With the zlac tools IMport/export for tactis i can extract the single block of a tactics,so somewhere i think there are also those values. I've just to try, map the file , hexedit and try again... same story about my social life.... And maybe if this will be found there is some chance to edit the same byte also in the PS tactics (you have to wait the release of some tools by Rasuna or SMcCuctheon)

                          Last edited by kilay; 03-30-2017, 09:02 PM.

                          Comment

                          • papinho81
                            Pro
                            • Feb 2015
                            • 673

                            #14
                            Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                            Originally posted by kilay
                            Great findings Pap, after Matt discover I thought also that about tactics (save/load method) but i not tried, so now i've to rework all the tactics, and after my update (i have changed all the tactics with save/load method ignoring this ATT/DEF behavior) this is really difficult... I've to switch to default some team and rebuild all the 500 tacts...

                            I think to change just some team that really require a fix... unfortunately Monaco is been the base from a lot of 4-3-3, a damn B/B.
                            Anyway there are worst A/D level than B/B , so just test,test,test, and again test... Probably i've lost my social life .....

                            ANd I'm also interested to tweaks with DINO the few/med/many slider, but i've to try over a clean db to test, and i've to research where is the relative byte of the tactics written inside the edit file.
                            With the zlac tools IMport/export for tactis i can extract the single block of a tactics,so somewhere i think there are also those values. I've just to try, map the file , hexedit and try again... same story about my social life.... And maybe if this will be found there is some chance to edit the same byte also in the PS tactics (you have to wait the release of some tools by Rasuna or SMcCuctheon)
                            I know, so much things to redo and this has to be done by hand one by one. For sure the whole PL and so many teams needs their A/D to be changed. O/B has been horrific and I agree with Royce when he says it has been the source of many problems we had with tactics. I just take the FB and the CDM as an example. FBs with O/O really behave like I want them for possession teams. They provide width and offensive supports but also the FB not involved in the attack (other side of the pitch) tend to be positioned higher (like I wished they would do before we discovered the trick) and they try stopping counter attack at their source. The O/B pollute the game like an invasive weed and we need to get rid of it. I tested it again yesterday with Chelsea. Even if Chelsea tactic as a strong emphasis on defense they can't be O/B (G/G?), I had Hazard and Pedro dropping way too low letting Costa doing the bad job alone on midfield.

                            So it seems to me that we can already get rid of O/B and B/O. I thought at some point that B in attack was leading to more patient build up but I think it is placebo it is just taking more time to move player upper pitch.
                            I wish we had sliders controlling 1) the number of players moving forward (this we kind of have now) and 2) how safe/risky are the passes attempted by the cpu. Too often the cpu tries to play the ball forward when it seems there is a high chance the will loose possession. Unfortunately the support value do not control that it does just say how close players should be form the ball carrier.
                            Last edited by papinho81; 03-31-2017, 07:20 AM.

                            Comment

                            • kilay
                              Rookie
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 140

                              #15
                              Re: Riding PES rainbow (exploring and describing the ATTACK/DEFENSE levels).

                              I Wanna try to tweaks arsenal, is one of the few team that don't switch on red after '65

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