Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

[Big FN Deal]

Madden seems to be making a concerted effort towards more realism, which I applaud and even with all the good realistic elements being touted for M17, I want to draw attention to preplay adjustments. I've broached this subject before numerous times, even had a thread about for Madden last-gen and with this current drive towards realism I think it should be spotlighted yet again.

I recently went on Youtube to watch some games of M16 and still by far, imo, the most jarring arcade-y visual aspect and unrealistic strategic aspect are preplay adjustments. It was admitted by Ian Cummings on OS awhile back that the defensive preplay adjustments are unrealistic and only implemented to add balance since the offense in Madden was so OP, so I'll start there.

http://usafootball.com/news/coaches/lets-talk-football-audibles-defense

Granted this is just one way or concept this coach prefers but it still emphasizes the point that way too much is going on with regard to defensive adjustments at the LOS in Madden. Now I want to emphasize, the main realism issue with defensive preplay adjustments imo, is that they are so broad at the LOS, not with the general control they offer gamers to manage their defense. I think realism dictates the majority of these capabilities be moved/restricted to the play call menu/sidelines, pregame and halftime. At the LOS just allow the gamer access to preset complete play audibles, line/LB shifts and group adjustments like press, off, show blitz, etc but none of this current micromanagement ability for each individual, essentially creating/drawing up an entirely new/different play at the LOS, before the ball is snapped. Again, move that stuff to the "sidelines" and off the field, where gamers can do all that micromanagement within time constraints and make halftime adjustments a real thing in Madden.

Now to the offense, pretty much the same premise, allow them to have complete play audibles, ability to keep players in to block, slide protection, etc and ONE hot route adjustment. Meaning if they come out and see A matchup or defense to exploit, they can either hot route ONE receiver to attempt to take advantage or audible the entire play to take advantage, no more of this drawing up a whole new play at the LOS. Again, leave that for the sidelines and off field, then gamers have to think ahead and adjust accordingly after the fact, not ad lib/freestyle at the LOS.

Everyone feel free to add your thoughts about preplay adjustments and if you think they are fine as is, I'll never forgive you for posting it in here.

[pacman5769]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Nice idea..but will never happen. I hate the "playmaker " feature. .it's unrealistic but isn't going anywhere any time soon

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[Godgers12]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

The tourney crowd would hate this idea lol. But since I'm not a tourney guy. I only ever play Gamestop tourneys every release day to get a free Madden, which I've done 4 straight years. In other words I'd be all for anything that eliminates cheese.

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

I don't really agree. Defensive wise, I don't see a problem with defensive adjustments, it's unrealistic to shade a receiver? Or change a zone route? I might misinterpret what you were saying.

Offensive wise, most leagues I played in limited hot routes and never became an issue, I think if you're playing CPU, it's your game, you should be able to call what you want.

I wouldn't mind seeing an innovated play adjustment, don't get me wrong, but I don't see too much of an issue form my viewpoint (which is mainly online franchise)

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

I don't really agree. Defensive wise, I don't see a problem with defensive adjustments, it's unrealistic to shade a receiver? Or change a zone route? I might misinterpret what you were saying.

Offensive wise, most leagues I played in limited hot routes and never became an issue, I think if you're playing CPU, it's your game, you should be able to call what you want.

I wouldn't mind seeing an innovated play adjustment, don't get me wrong, but I don't see too much of an issue form my viewpoint (which is mainly online franchise)

The unrealistic aspect isn't what's being done, it's where, imo. My POV on this is, once on the field, the gamer should be capable of micromanaging ONE player only and that's the one they choose to User control. All the other other players should require the gamer to adjust or coach up, off the field. Imo it's completely realistic to have a defense make wholesale or group adjustments but that player by player stuff isn't. A coach, coordinator or even defensive Captain, can only do so much at the LOS with regard to other players assignments, most of that has to be handled on the sideline before and after plays, not at the LOS like in Madden.

[jfsolo]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

John Grennan @jt_taurus23 Jun 7
@ClintOldenburg if the playbooks are accurate and the zones and gap play are effective why is there still a need for unlimited hot routes?

Clint Oldenburg
@ClintOldenburg
@jt_taurus23 a lot of our users love them. Tough to take that away. Big part of competitive Madden.

Although I agree with the OP, this little exchange from a couple of days ago makes it pretty clear that this is a nod to Tourney type players that they are not going to get rid of, even if it isn't realistic.

[bcruise]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Somewhat related:

Did the devs ever discuss what the AI does with regard to preplay stuff? Like what they'll do and what they don't?

I always wondered if I was getting an unfair advantage over it by using some of that stuff.

[mestevo]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Disclaimer: I'm not a competitive online player, and play 99% of my games against the CPU unless I can get my friends' CFM back together in 17)

I don't really care too much currenly about adjustments at the line. Feels like an 'is what it is' proposition with so many things around it that could be improved. But I think more attention could be brough to substitutions. The offense brings out personnel to go 5-wide you should be alerted and send nickel personnel out. Same with high profile players being out of the lineup for any reason (injury or fatigue)... bring some attention to that and provide the ability to quickly try and take advantage.

If this is delegated to coaches, mistakes could even be made leading to too many men in the huddle or the wrong package of players being on the field trying to sub out at the last minute.

All of the above could also help the 'can run a play every 4-6 seconds' (or whatever the interval is) issue Madden has sometimes.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

I would like more time, in general, on defense; cause as it is, there is hardly any time to make changes needed; one of the ideas I have posted about in the past was allowing the user to adjust plays in practice mode, using all the options we have, pre-snap, and just save those plays into our playbook..Of course the playbook would have to be usable in all areas of the game; which seems to be the area where a problem is created?

Then as the OP is talking about, just have shifts, and such, the big or mass changes to the different tiers, DL, LB, DB adjustments.

Offense does need to be taken down a notch in their ability to essentially make new plays at the LOS...I have never seen a football game where the QB audibles all 3, 4 or 5 receivers individually; users will just have to edit their audible plays...

I am bad at editing audibles in that I don't do it because I have never fully understood where I could use edited playbooks; essentially, never gotten a list of where they could be used, so I haven't bothered putting in anytime on custom playbooks if they can only be used in "Play Now" and Offline Franchise. So as I mentioned above, custom playbooks need to be available in all game modes.

If we can already make new plays at the LOS, essentially, making custom playbooks available in all modes should be available - of course if it already is available then disregard and I'll be happy to look goofy for not knowing..lol

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Although I agree with the OP, this little exchange from a couple of days ago makes it pretty clear that this is a nod to Tourney type players that they are not going to get rid of, even if it isn't realistic.

Thanks for posting that and the realistic up to a certain extent approach is unfortunate. I still hope some form of moving the unrealistic aspects of preplay off the field/LOS can be considered for an option, especially in multiplayer Franchises.

It should go without saying that they nor any other gamer type should dictate what the game is capable of, ie options. It's particularly perplexing when you notice how adding unrealistic things, like button prompts, XP, MUT, DC, etc, weren't vetoed because the hardcore didn't want them, same thing should apply for some option(s) for realism in preplay adjustments.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Somewhat related:

Did the devs ever discuss what the AI does with regard to preplay stuff? Like what they'll do and what they don't?

I always wondered if I was getting an unfair advantage over it by using some of that stuff.

This is good point about realism and for those that ever play the CPU, whether offline or in online franchises where no User controls the current team on their schedule. The CPU is definitely at a disadvantage, with the offline gamer or Commish having no option to simply disable this stuff. The fact that even imagining trying to program the AI to do these things clearly comes across as trying to get it to mimic a gamer, not a football coach or player, really highlights how unrealistic this stuff is. However, move this stuff to the sideline/play call menu, having the AI make adjustments there, seems like a much more achievable and realistic task.

Disclaimer: I'm not a competitive online player, and play 99% of my games against the CPU unless I can get my friends' CFM back together in 17)

I don't really care too much currenly about adjustments at the line. Feels like an 'is what it is' proposition with so many things around it that could be improved. But I think more attention could be brough to substitutions. The offense brings out personnel to go 5-wide you should be alerted and send nickel personnel out. Same with high profile players being out of the lineup for any reason (injury or fatigue)... bring some attention to that and provide the ability to quickly try and take advantage.

If this is delegated to coaches, mistakes could even be made leading to too many men in the huddle or the wrong package of players being on the field trying to sub out at the last minute.

All of the above could also help the 'can run a play every 4-6 seconds' (or whatever the interval is) issue Madden has sometimes.

This touches on another approach that might help inherently limit all that can be accomplished at the LOS, the timing. I've believed for some time that having personnel actually come on/off the field is a needed element, which like you alluded to, would better represent why real teams can't micromanage at the LOS.

As far as the defense knowing the offense's personnel, that's already represented to an extent now, the defense can wait until the offense has called a play and be notified of their personnel, then picked their defense accordingly. That said, I would like to see that fleshed out more, like you stated, with more info and exactly what players they are sending out vs just the general setup currently.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Although I agree with the OP, this little exchange from a couple of days ago makes it pretty clear that this is a nod to Tourney type players that they are not going to get rid of, even if it isn't realistic.

At first I thought Clint's was the first tweet and got really excited thinking he was talking to a tourney player and that was his response. But this is pretty much the exact reason it's hard for me personally to take the "competitive" or tourney side serious. It's loved because it allows for ridiculous freedom and allows the user to do pretty much anything at the tap of a few buttons regardless of realism.

It's weird that there is such a disconnect between them touting a largely authentic goal and experience but then you watch "competitive" Madden which is something they are increasingly embracing and it couldn't be a further representation of that. I play offline so none of this affects me at all but from a viewing experience for me personally, watching a guy come out in 5WR sets and change every route or drop all 11 defenders into coverage or shift into a nano on every play detracts from that. But a lot of this stuff has been the norm for so long that it's been universally accepted and taking away that freedom would likely create a significant backlash within that particular community and even those outside of it.

[BezO]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

Completely agree Big!

I'll add/emphasize that these hot route options are not realistic because players in a defensive scheme work together. You can't audible an individual from zone coverage to blitz without audibling others to complete the new scheme.

I firmly believe this is a thing because we don't have the ability to scheme. We only have access to the pre-packaged schemes Madden provides. I always felt I had to choose between what coverage or blitz/stunt combo I wanted and settle for what came in front/behind it. I assume that's why gamers feel the need to create on the fly.

The tweet posted, and the segmented way they implement features shows they are not fully commited to realism.

[OhMrHanky]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

At first I thought Clint's was the first tweet and got really excited thinking he was talking to a tourney player and that was his response. But this is pretty much the exact reason it's hard for me personally to take the "competitive" or tourney side serious. It's loved because it allows for ridiculous freedom and allows the user to do pretty much anything at the tap of a few buttons regardless of realism.



It's weird that there is such a disconnect between them touting a largely authentic goal and experience but then you watch "competitive" Madden which is something they are increasingly embracing and it couldn't be a further representation of that. I play offline so none of this affects me at all but from a viewing experience for me personally, watching a guy come out in 5WR sets and change every route or drop all 11 defenders into coverage or shift into a nano on every play detracts from that. But a lot of this stuff has been the norm for so long that it's been universally accepted and taking away that freedom would likely create a significant backlash within that particular community and even those outside of it.

Dude, watching it is certainly terrible. Playing against it is pure garbage! And, of course, is why I've played maybe 5 games online in the last 10 years. Lol. Every time I think, 'the game is more realistic, now. I won't run into cheese online, and if I do, I can beat it with my solid football fundamentals.', I get killed on 4th and 20 with some clown throwing 4 verts against quarters and completing it every time. And/or the nano blitzes, etc. I think I tried playing M13 online and some clown would take the time to realign several players on D when kicking xtra points!!! And, he would block every one of them. I was like, 'really? You're going to even bother with that just to make me lose one point?' And, legit, nothing I could do about it. He always had just enough time to set it up. I lost that game, and didn't play online for a few years after that. Lol. Tourney/cheese/nano/etc is so unbelievably lame. I cannot imagine wanting to play football that way. So odd.


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[jfsolo]

Re: Let's Discuss Preplay Adjustments

At first I thought Clint's was the first tweet and got really excited thinking he was talking to a tourney player and that was his response. But this is pretty much the exact reason it's hard for me personally to take the "competitive" or tourney side serious. It's loved because it allows for ridiculous freedom and allows the user to do pretty much anything at the tap of a few buttons regardless of realism.

It's weird that there is such a disconnect between them touting a largely authentic goal and experience but then you watch "competitive" Madden which is something they are increasingly embracing and it couldn't be a further representation of that. I play offline so none of this affects me at all but from a viewing experience for me personally, watching a guy come out in 5WR sets and change every route or drop all 11 defenders into coverage or shift into a nano on every play detracts from that. But a lot of this stuff has been the norm for so long that it's been universally accepted and taking away that freedom would likely create a significant backlash within that particular community and even those outside of it.

Here's something that interesting though, they've made it clear that they aren't going to remove the ability for the User to perform a lot of actions that aren't realistic, but I think that they are making a concerted effort to render most of those things unnecessary and more importantly, ineffective. Here's another exchange from a couple of days ago:

connect four bum @XxbmorekingxX13 Jun 7
@Kilia416 @RexDEAFootball all i know is they claim dropping 10 wont work but with instant blockshed im only rushing two people

Rex Dickson @RexDEAFootball
@XxbmorekingxX13 @Kilia416 We fixed that too.

John Grennan @jt_taurus23 Jun 7
@RexDEAFootball @Sgibs7 when you say drop 10 is fixed that means people cant do it right?

Rex Dickson @RexDEAFootball
@jt_taurus23 @Sgibs7 @ClintOldenburg @SickNastySykes Oh you can do it... Don't expect to stop the run though. All I'm saying.

Clint Oldenburg @ClintOldenburg Jun 7
Clint Oldenburg Retweeted Rex Dickson
This! (RE: Drop 10)

John Grennan @jt_taurus23 Jun 7
@ClintOldenburg not a big part of nfl football though to drop ten back in coverage on second or third down thought we were past this

Clint Oldenburg @ClintOldenburg Jun 7
@jt_taurus23 you're right. So now, if somebody elects to do that, they will not be rewarded. And they'll stop

So they're taking the approach letting people have the freedom to do all these kinds of shenanigans, but hopefully not having success, thus ultimately leading to people no longer doing them. Seeing the first vids from EA Play will give us an indication of their current progress.