Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation?

[illiterateoption]

Hi Guys,

I've owned Madden 13. Still own Madden 25 for current/next gen. I also own NCAA 14 and have watched most of the available Madden 15 footage released to date, which isn't much.

My question for you all is, after playing 3 games (last gen) in M13, NCAA14, and M25 featuring the infinity physics engine - and now moving forward with M25 and M15 on Next Gen, do you feel like the infinity engine and ignite engines delivered on the "physics you can feel" or "you'll never see the same tackle twice" ideas as marketed?

Infinity Reveal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5BUp0Ys_Eo

Ignite "Actual Game Footage"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zcoq7ukBaE

Do you feel, after 5 titles (M15 included), that either of these systems has delivered on what has been advertised from a "living worlds" or "real time physics" approach?

For me, I think Infinity/Ignite have made the game better. Do I think they come anywhere near delivering on their promises? No. Not close. When I watch M15 footage, I still see the same animations and items play out far too consistently...plus they are existing animations that can be found in M25, NCAA14, and yes..M13.

Do you guys agree? Do you feel like there's a real different between infinity and ignite? Personally, its tough for me to tell the difference.

This really has me on the fence about M15. I need to see more from M15. 5 titles later and I feel like we're still being asked to wait for the engine to deliver the revolutionary gameplay as promised 2 years ago (2012) - along with the new leap in hardware.

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Still not very good. Infinity got toned down way too much from its 1.0 appearance.

They still have awful animations and bad triggers. Even with Infinity the lack of physics in character movement is lamentable.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Good thread and my biggest confusion on IE is that if it seemingly added the same issues as a true physics engine, rag doll limbs, tangled bodies, etc but didn't include the positives, real time physics calculations, dynamic interactions, then why not just use a true physics engine?

I find myself asking the exact same questions about Madden, which I probably won't ever get answers to but oh well. It seems like yet another example of attempting to innovate the football genre, with no regard for if it will be better than what already exists. I won't list them here because this thread is about the physics engine but just about every area Tiburon has "innovated" in Madden, is inferior to what already existed in the genre, while two areas the game excels in, graphics and online servers, are consequently areas they haven't seemed to try to innovate.

[illiterateoption]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

For me, its about investment. I've invested $65 x 4 (M13, NCAA14, M25 x 2) and $500 on new hardware. That's nearly $800 since the infinity engine reveal. That's alot of dough.

So far, the gameplay in M15 looks ok. But does it deliver that NEXT GEN experience that is totally different and in advance of anything else I have in my library? So far its a resounding no. In fact, I'm not sure it meets the standards set for M13 based on the 2012 presser.

I shouldn't watch M15 gameplay and then go back and play M25 on 360 or NCAA14 on 360 (two games I enjoy) and see the same outcomes that are present in M15..., let alone at a frequency that is contradictory to the Infinity Engine reveal press conference.

Do you guys see it in the same light? What if M15 isn't that large of advancement..., do you still need that new title each year? For me, with NCAA14 and M25...I'm ok waiting at this point after all that I've invested. How about you?

[illiterateoption]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

In some respects, it seemed that with each passing title (from M13 on) the IE got toned down rather than fixed.

M13 featured lots of Rag-Doll randomness. 1) Good Randomness 2) Rag-dolls aren't pleasing to view. So, why didn't they try to solve that - yet keep the randomness?

I feel Like as IE moved forward that the randomness has been toned town to the point where the game feels 75% animation based now.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Good thread and my biggest confusion on IE is that if it seemingly added the same issues as a true physics engine, rag doll limbs, tangled bodies, etc but didn't include the positives, real time physics calculations, dynamic interactions, then why not just use a true physics engine?

I find myself asking the exact same questions about Madden, which I probably won't ever get answers to but oh well. It seems like yet another example of attempting to innovate the football genre, with no regard for if it will be better than what already exists. I won't list them here because this thread is about the physics engine but just about every area Tiburon has "innovated" in Madden, is inferior to what already existed in the genre, while two areas the game excels in, graphics and online servers, are consequently areas they haven't seemed to try to innovate.

Because they aren't innovating. They slap stuff together so they can say they have something the competition had. The Infinity Engine still isn't better than what APF 2k8 did with just animations as far as realistic football goes. It still isn't as fluid as backbreakers physics were.

Madden "is what it is". It will never be anything more. I feel like I experience other sports games, I just play Madden. Yet at times I love it, because it gives me control of the NFL. Those moments are few and far between, I just need them to be closer.

[Junior Moe]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

I saw the difference in Madden 13. That game had me hyped up because it "felt" different (and looked great!) in my hands. The physics were a little wonky at times, but at least I knew they were there. I felt that after a few years tinkering, we could have a gem. Something happened after that, though. Madden 25 just felt stale again. The physics were still there, it just felt muted. Which essentially made the gameplay look and feel like the same old Madden. Ignite actually feels like a muted Infinity to me.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Ignite and infinity are not comparable. Ignite is the frostbite of EA Sports games it isn't a physics engine it's a shared technology. I don't understand why people keep comparing the two. To compare it you'd have to look at FIFA and NHL. Those games look phenomenal, because they were good games to start with, Madden is playing catch up, in the next few years Madden will remove more & more legacy issues and start to innovate to get on the same level as FIFA and NHL are right now. I think it took NHL and FIFA 5 years to really get their physics right and y'all act like what's wrong with Madden after 2.

Anyway bottom line is Ignite and Infinity are two separate things. The new tech for M15 is also physics based so we need to compare that with Infinity too.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Because they aren't innovating. They slap stuff together so they can say they have something the competition had. The Infinity Engine still isn't better than what APF 2k8 did with just animations as far as realistic football goes. It still isn't as fluid as backbreakers physics were.

Madden "is what it is". It will never be anything more. I feel like I experience other sports games, I just play Madden. Yet at times I love it, because it gives me control of the NFL. Those moments are few and far between, I just need them to be closer.

How is your saying Madden is what it is and will never be anything more not looked upon in the same light as my belief that 16 will be the game to put previous football titles behind us???? It's the EXACT SAME principle, your extreme pessimism based on the past, vs my optimism based on the present trends. I'm just as confident that it WILL be more than you think as you are it won't. We shall see who ends up telling the truth. You said it never would be more than what it is, the odds are against you now.

[kehlis]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

How is your saying Madden is what it is and will never be anything more not looked upon in the same light as my belief that 16 will be the game to put previous football titles behind us???? It's the EXACT SAME principle, you're extreme pessimism based on the past, vs my optimism based on the present trends.

Because there are no "present trends."

We've all been through the song and dance for years.

Your talking to a majority of people who want the same thing you do but we're at the point that we've been burned to much in the past. We want to play it and see it for ourselves and nothing else is going to prove otherwise.

I don't care about tweets, I don't care about blogs, I don't care about "vision." All I care about at this point is the final product.


There was a time when trends and promise held merit with me. You can go back to when I joined if you want, I was as much of a Madden defender as they came.

Too many years of calling wolf has me to the point where I don't care what they say. I want to see it for myself.

Want to be gamechangers and gamechangers can say all they want, I want to see it for myself, when that happens, I'll believe and give credit where credit is due (and that is not to posters who keep saying the same thing every year to praise EA hoping it works out).

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

(I think this fits better ITT) First of off, curse you for inspiring me to look this crap up so I could be more accurate and delving into this convoluted mess, lol. I will post some links for reference and people can interpret the stuff as they see fit but for me, I can't make head or tails of what's true or not. Just for the sake of cohesiveness I'll use Shopmaster's writeup about Infinity and Infinity 2.0 but it's pretty much the same theme in the other sources write ups, all presumably just rehashing what Tiburon claimed.

http://mymaddenpad.com/2012/06/05/ma...-game-changer/
..The ‘Infinity Engine’ is a new physics-driven animation system that influences the outcome of ALL plays by giving users more accurate physics so that the weight, mass, height and speed of players can all determine the outcome of a play... (referring to Infinity Engine in M13)

http://mymaddenpad.com/2013/04/27/in...madden-nfl-25/
...This year the EA team grouped what they wanted to do with the Infinity Engine into two categories.

The first being fixes like clean up work and stuff that just didn’t look good. I think we all know what that looks like. Players falling over players on the ground, wrap tackles that didn’t line up correctly, limbs that were a little too loose when hits occurred, the things you saw when playing that just didn’t look good at all and there were a lot of them. They also set out to fix conservation momentum which is when two players collide and they choose the proper momentum and that they always fall in the right direction. In Madden NFL 13 there were a lot of “splat tackles” where you would go tackle a player and both players fall down and not have realistic tackle animations sometimes just falling in opposite directions.

The second category that EA wanted to work on was “User Interfacing Mechanics”. Last year animations were augmented by physics and this year mechanics are driven and augmented by physics. This resulted in what they call the “Force Impact” system. The Force Impact system is pretty sweet and uses the size of a player, the weight of a player, and the impact of the collision to produce realistic outcomes. What this means is that big backs will feel like bigger players when going against small DBs in the open field... (referring to Infinity 2.0 in M25)

http://www.easports.com/madden-nfl/news-updates-gameplay/article/madden-25-infinity-engine-2

..One of the biggest points of emphasis this year was tuning the Infinity Engine to account for the strength and power of players. This is how Force Impact was born. Football is a game of collisions and that will be reflected in how players interact when they hit each other. Force Impact allows the game to account for the size and strength of players to render realistic results when impact occurs. So if you use the Truck Stick to make a big, bruising running back like Marshawn Lynch lower his shoulder when a smaller player is trying to make a tackle, the Force Impact system will accurately calculate the outcome and render a result. Spoiler alert: there’s a good chance he’s going to run right over the smaller player. This was first demonstrated last year, but now it has been finely tuned to be even more realistic....(referring to Inifinity 2.0 in M25)

The gist of that stuff is, imo, when Infinity first dropped it was falsely marketed as RTP, then later admitted or clarified to be augmenting animations and then when 2.0 came out in M25, that version is touted as now doing things, they seem to claim 1.0 already did. For example in Shop's write up about IE 2.0 referring back to IE 1.0 he mentions "splat tackles", which shouldn't have been occurring if IE 1.0 truly was "a new physics-driven animation system that influences the outcome of ALL plays by giving users more accurate physics so that the weight, mass, height and speed of players can all determine the outcome of a play".

After looking into this stuff stated about IE, I went back to read tons of other stuff STATED about M13 and M25, if only we could get a game that plays like those statements, we would really have something, lol. Don't believe me, just do a search and read the write ups and about either Madden BEFORE they actually were released, they seem phenomenal.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

How is your saying Madden is what it is and will never be anything more not looked upon in the same light as my belief that 16 will be the game to put previous football titles behind us???? It's the EXACT SAME principle, your extreme pessimism based on the past, vs my optimism based on the present trends. I'm just as confident that it WILL be more than you think as you are it won't. We shall see who ends up telling the truth.

Mine is based on the past, it's already happened. Yours is based on hopes and wishes. Tiburon has made you look bad with your assumptions year after year, they only added fuel to my fire.

We're on the same team, we both want the same thing. The difference is you're content with the game as is. It could probably change one thing every year and you'd still enjoy it. I don't have the same standards. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm the same way with NBA 2k. I see people complain all day(actually I don't because I'm never in that forum) and I'm still gonna enjoy the game until VC gives me reasons not to.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Bottlenecks exist that handicap the potential of any physics they try to implement.

I don't fault the engine but rather an x limit in the animation library among other issues that are making the physics instructions appear to be hamstrung.

We cannot even begin to grasp physics in football if mass is not accounted for - the ball does not even have play in its own independent universe.

I would be appeased to see the same limited base of recycled animations in running strides and collisions if mass at least had an impact on both the stride and the collision.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[Junior Moe]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Ignite and infinity are not comparable. Ignite is the frostbite of EA Sports games it isn't a physics engine it's a shared technology. I don't understand why people keep comparing the two. To compare it you'd have to look at FIFA and NHL. Those games look phenomenal, because they were good games to start with, Madden is playing catch up, in the next few years Madden will remove more & more legacy issues and start to innovate to get on the same level as FIFA and NHL are right now. I think it took NHL and FIFA 5 years to really get their physics right and y'all act like what's wrong with Madden after 2.

Anyway bottom line is Ignite and Infinity are two separate things. The new tech for M15 is also physics based so we need to compare that with Infinity too.

Whatever the difference between Ignite and Infinity is, it isn't enough. If they are supposed to complement each other and work in tandem, fine. But it doesn't do it well enough for me if that's the case. My judgement is based solely on my experience with the game (and previous Maddens) in my console. That's all. It's how I judge every game. By how much fun I have with it. Madden 13 actually felt different to ME when I played it and I was genuinely excited about Madden. More so than 25 on the XB1, even.

I don't care one damn bit about plans or "vision". Talk is cheap, my man. If your vision is more realism and authenticity then best way to convey that sentiment is to show me with the finished product. The rest is just PR bluster. You can continue to judge Madden off of what the developers tell you. I will continue to judge Madden like I do every other game, and that is by the quality of the finished product. No more, no less.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation

Whatever the difference between Ignite and Infinity is, it isn't enough. If they are supposed to complement each other and work in tandem, fine. But it doesn't do it well enough for me if that's the case. My judgement is based solely on my experience with the game (and previous Maddens) in my console. That's all. It's how I judge every game. By how much fun I have with it. Madden 13 actually felt different to ME when I played it and I was genuinely excited about Madden. More so than 25 on the XB1, even.

I don't care one damn bit about plans or "vision". Talk is cheap, my man. If your vision is more realism and authenticity then best way to convey that sentiment is to show me with the finished product. The rest is just PR bluster. You can continue to judge Madden off of what the developers tell you. I will continue to judge Madden like I do every other game, and that is by the quality of the finished product. No more, no less.

Fair enough I look forward to seeing your response to M15 come Aug-Sept.