The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

[jfsolo]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Coachglass actually does show you a lot of this information, but I never remember to set it up.

In any event, my problem with the defensive gameplay is that the front 7 players are intentionally nerfed in several ways.

How many times have you broken through to get a sack, but the other guy hits the pass button at the last second and gets the little dribbling incomplete animation? If real QBs were waiting that long to start their passing motion, they'd be strip sacked all day at best or get themselves injured at worst. If the team made it so that late throws in the face of pressure were the high-risk plays that they should be, then it would have a ripple effect through the gameplay. Players would either have to run substantially shorter routes or eat more sacks going for long plays.

It would also help if holding the sprint/scramble button as a QB force-zoomed the camera down to the QB, so you couldn't have a guy running flat out but still somehow able to read the coverage. It would make the scramble into the desperation move it's supposed to be, rather then the normal footspeed of the QB. If the guy escapes, then he can release the button and the camera will zoom back out, reflecting the QB getting his eyes downfield.

These are good ideas.

[alexthegreatmc]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

The offense in Madden is great, which is why there's always such high scores. Next year's Madden should heavily focus on defense. I want to play full 15 minute quarters and finish 16-10 or 17-13. I'm tired of teams averaging 39 points. I want to struggle to score points and I want a competent defense.

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[Cajungodfather]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Coachglass actually does show you a lot of this information, but I never remember to set it up.

In any event, my problem with the defensive gameplay is that the front 7 players are intentionally nerfed in several ways.

How many times have you broken through to get a sack, but the other guy hits the pass button at the last second and gets the little dribbling incomplete animation? If real QBs were waiting that long to start their passing motion, they'd be strip sacked all day at best or get themselves injured at worst. If the team made it so that late throws in the face of pressure were the high-risk plays that they should be, then it would have a ripple effect through the gameplay. Players would either have to run substantially shorter routes or eat more sacks going for long plays.

It would also help if holding the sprint/scramble button as a QB force-zoomed the camera down to the QB, so you couldn't have a guy running flat out but still somehow able to read the coverage. It would make the scramble into the desperation move it's supposed to be, rather then the normal footspeed of the QB. If the guy escapes, then he can release the button and the camera will zoom back out, reflecting the QB getting his eyes downfield.

Even a simpler approach would be just for the wr icons would disappear if you were sprinting with the qb


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[D81SKINS]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Even a simpler approach would be just for the wr icons would disappear if you were sprinting with the qb


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What's funny is they've actually had that in the past. I believe it was when the vision cone was introduced.

[AaronS444]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Chris,

And if we could dig up the Madden Mania archives, we were saying the same thing 5 and 10 years ago.

EA isn't interested in making a great football sim. They're making a football arcade game which makes a ton of $$ beacuse they were able to create an environment where they don't have competition. Good for them. Bummer for consumers.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

We've been pointing out this for years and madden just doesn't care.

[RicoLaguno]

The first thing that must happen is that EA must move away from the "football" being the main, if not only, determinate that drives/dictates what plays out during a play.

Everything (Procedural Awareness) seems to be driven by the current location or desired end result of the football.

Example:
Instead of the Zone Coverage rating representing some form of AI Awareness of a players zone cover responsibility, it dictates how "quickly" a defensive player will react to the ball leaving the QB hand and run directly to the balls ending path-line, to animate out the end result of it being knocked down or INT'd.

This is the tandem animation that plays out even when the defensive players are on opposite sides of the field.

The offensive player doesn't drive a defensive players positioning/reaction to his zone being violated as he should, but the football location while behind the LOS (pocket vs rollout) then as the QB releases the ball, defensive players slide/shift to the path-line.

The ugliness of this is really seen when defensive players running with their back to the LOS are able to keep a perfect relationship to the WR every time as they are linked to meet at the end path of the ball.

This runs true for all other aspects of gameplay also.
- line play
- special teams
- tackling
- etc....

Currently, the football has everything "tethered" to it and until Procederal Awareness is redone to focus a little more on the players, getting the AI to utilize concepts to be more adaptive will continue to be problematic to say the least.

Not even the Camera Views can seem to escape this issue!!! (Broadcast view especially)

this is a very interesting perspective...and I agree with alot of it. There needs to be more off ball strategy and AI that is taking place

[RicoLaguno]

Also I have always felt that the Madden engine isnt deep enough/complex enough. I dont think its performing alot of detailed calculations under the hood. Many plays unfold into repetitive outcomes with animations being tied to dice roll algorhythms that arent really taking into consideration enough variations of the player attributes and ratings

So what you get is alot of the same outcomes of plays regardless of the subtle differences in player ratings/attributes. There simply isnt enough organic variation to seperation and play development. Many of the same play calls will have the same exact players running to the same exact places on the field at the same exact time with the same exact takedown animations with the same exact spacing and seperation and timing to break up a pass or get to the outside to make a shoe string trip up tackle...ect, etc, etc!!

This is what is really killing the Madden series and it has been doing it for years!

Play a game like PES 16 and see how much more organically players react, plays unfold and develop, and how distinctions in players and team styles play out on the field. Regardless, that its soccer, you can see the difference between a more polished and deeper gameplay engine at work when you play Pro Evo and then play Madden.....thoughts?

[AaronS444]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

So what you get is alot of the same outcomes of plays regardless of the subtle differences in player ratings/attributes. There simply isnt enough organic variation to seperation and play development. Many of the same play calls will have the same exact players running to the same exact places on the field at the same exact time with the same exact takedown animations with the same exact spacing and seperation and timing to break up a pass or get to the outside to make a shoe string trip up tackle...ect, etc, etc!!



This is what is really killing the Madden series and it has been doing it for years!

Yep. Nailed it.

When was the last time you threw a bullet pass that sailed over your receivers head?.. Or threw a ball WELL ahead or behind a player?.. The only time a WR can be overthrown is on a deep ball. 90% of the time a pass is incomplete, either the WR or DB made a play on the ball.

And spot on with the outcomes too.

In franchise mode, I run the same offense and get the same stats with any set of players. I just did. I got the same numbers with Favre throwing to Sharpe as I did with Hasselbeck throwing to Javon Walker. The qb AND wr being rated 10 points lower.

And as you said; not new issues. This goes back 2 dev cycles.

.. and I get that it's a game. If they made it too hard to play it wouldn't sell. But mix in some randomness for goodness sake! Send a snap over a QBs head once and awhile.

... the numbers thing is just inexcusable. Why rate players at all if they're technically all the same? It would be a heckuva lot easier to make rosters if all you had up do was name them and fill in their measurables and personal info.


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[Allball76]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Ratings are all jacked up everyone a 90 or 99 ! Von miller don't feel elite! we should have to game plan for miller and say jj watt! All players seem to much the same if von miller was the highest rated player at a 90 then the avg olb starter should be 65 overall . This would make big difference

In Super Bowl 50, football fans watched the Denver Broncos win a championship with arguably the deepest and deadliest defense to play in the NFL's current Penalty Flag Era (TM). But in Madden NFL 16, gamers won't be able to generate consistent pressure on quarterbacks or shutdown opponents' top receivers using Gary Kubiak's dominant defensive unit (I call them Kubiak's defense, because Madden still doesn't include any coordinators or assistant coaches).

Drive Out, Four Verticals, Inside Zone, Fullback Dive –- those four plays are all it takes to consistently move the chains in Madden NFL 16, even on the hardest difficulty setting (All-Madden), against the highest-rated defenses in the game...

Read More - The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

[MAGboyswifT27]

Great post! Any way EA can read this?

[jfsolo]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

Great post! Any way EA can read this?

They don't post much during the winter/spring when working on the next iteration, but IMO, last year's interaction by Rex and others made it pretty clear that they do read the Madden threads here.

By the time this article came out they would have probably locked down the feature set for M17, so hopefully they had already decided to make changes that will allow defenses to be more dominant.

The performance by both teams in the Super Bowl hopefully just added a push to the direction that they were already treading toward(fingers crossed)

[roadman]

Re: The Broncos' Defense Dominated Super Bowl 50, But Can't in Madden

They don't post much during the winter/spring when working on the next iteration, but IMO, last year's interaction by Rex and others made it pretty clear that they do read the Madden threads here.

By the time this article came out they would have probably locked down the feature set for M17, so hopefully they had already decided to make changes that will allow defenses to be more dominant.

The performance by both teams in the Super Bowl hopefully just added a push to the direction that they were already treading toward(fingers crossed)

Agreed, less than 3 months away and the game is near or at beta format.

[EASPORTS_AJ]

This is a well thought out writeup, and I appreciate the time that went into it. Your feedback is always heard, and I appreciate the dedicated fanbase over here at OS. Once again, that you guys for the suggestions and feedback on the game.

-AJ

#GoBroncos

[Downtown Bob]

This article pretty much brings to light the reason I do not play Madden anymore. This is a great article about the main problem with Madden and I applaud the author. Defenses have no awareness. I love Madden and played a lot of Madden 15, but 16 is just broken. Hopefully changes will be made and I can go back to playing Madden 17.