NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

I think PER is pretty useless as well, but you can just look at the names themselves. In 95, 1-6 would still be 1-6 today most likely.

After that, it's today by a pretty wide margin.

I would contend that offensively Ewing/Zo would not be as effective today due to their poor passing ability. Back then a passer like Vlade Divac was abnormal for the center position, but now a post player can't succeed unless they have that level of touch/vision.

Post players had a ton of time/space/physicality to work with 20 years ago that they simply don't enjoy anymore.

Someone like Andrew Bogut is a great, subtle example. A low usage player in a dynamite offense who averages 2.7 APG in only 24 MPG despite his limited number of touches/possessions.

1995 A/T Ratio
1.60 Vlade Divac (20 USG%)
1.07 Hakeem Olajuwon (32 USG%)
0.82 Patrick Ewing (31 USG%)
0.46 Alonzo Mourning (26 USG%)
0.25 Felton Spencer (17 USG%)

2015 A/T Ratio
2.44 Al Horford (22 USG%)
1.74 Marc Gasol (25 USG%)
1.69 Andrew Bogut (13 USG%)
0.98 Rudy Gobert (14 USG%)
0.80 Tyson Chandler (13 USG%)

Without going too deep or crazy, it goes without saying that if players like Ewing struggled with traps/doubles back then that garbage stiffs like Spencer (who STARTED for a 60 win team) would not be able to handle today's speed/pressure (which is quantifiably why those players no longer exist).

Conversely, as I've previously expressed, I likewise have no doubts that Marc Gasol would thrive in a less hostile post-environment.

[Mauer4MVP]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

I would contend that offensively Ewing/Zo would not be as effective today due to their poor passing ability. Back then a passer like Vlade Divac was abnormal for the center position, but now a post player can't succeed unless they have that level of touch/vision.

Post players had a ton of time/space/physicality to work with 20 years ago that they simply don't enjoy anymore.

Someone like Andrew Bogut is a great, subtle example. A low usage player in a dynamite offense who averages 2.7 APG in only 24 MPG despite his limited number of touches/possessions.

1995 A/T Ratio
1.60 Vlade Divac (20 USG%)
1.07 Hakeem Olajuwon (32 USG%)
0.82 Patrick Ewing (31 USG%)
0.46 Alonzo Mourning (26 USG%)
0.25 Felton Spencer (17 USG%)

2015 A/T Ratio
2.44 Al Horford (22 USG%)
1.74 Marc Gasol (25 USG%)
1.69 Andrew Bogut (13 USG%)
0.98 Rudy Gobert (14 USG%)
0.80 Tyson Chandler (13 USG%)

Without going too deep or crazy, it goes without saying that if players like Ewing struggled with traps/doubles back then that garbage stiffs like Spencer (who STARTED for a 60 win team) would not be able to handle today's speed/pressure (which is quantifiably why those players no longer exist).

Conversely, as I've previously expressed, I likewise have no doubts that Marc Gasol would thrive in a less hostile post-environment.

I think they'd still have tremendous value as rim protectors. That's also the tough thing when comparing players in completely different eras. Like you said, they may struggle with double teams because of their passing because of the different play styles and schemes. Would they have developed those skills had they been born 15-20 years later?

Anyways, we're completely on the same page. I always bring up the fact that I think the center position is deeper than ever and get laughed out of the room usually because people just love thinking of Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Zo, etc.

[8KB24]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Would you care to use other means to discuss the skill/ability/effectiveness of Jon Koncak versus Kosta Koufos in an expeditious manner?

Using PER to compare and evaluate players is like using how good of an *** a girls has to evaluate if she's wife material.

You gotta have eye test, context, all possible stats to compare players. You can't just use PER and say 'brah, Iggy is worse player than Green by 4 PER points'. It's just wrong.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Using PER to compare and evaluate players is like using how good of an *** a girls has to evaluate if she's wife material.

That is pretty erroneous given that...

You gotta have eye test, context, all possible stats to compare players. You can't just use PER and say 'brah, Iggy is worse player than Green by 4 PER points'. It's just wrong.

....we have all of that available, and none of it really diminishes anything I posted.

You can make snide remarks and then try to compare players that play two different positions all you want.
Jon Koncak, Felton Spencer, etc (your average 90s center) were bad via eye test, context, and all possible stats.

PER isn't the end all-be-all, and never has been intended to, but for the intents and purposes of this discussion (which involves centers, not low-usage defensive wings), it's close enough.

[8KB24]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

That is pretty erroneous given that...



....we have all of that available, and none of it really diminishes anything I posted.

You can make snide remarks and then try to compare players that play two different positions all you want.
Jon Koncak, Felton Spencer, etc (your average 90s center) were bad via eye test, context, and all possible stats.

PER isn't the end all-be-all, and never has been intended to, but for the intents and purposes of this discussion (which involves centers, not low-usage defensive wings), it's close enough.

Why don't you include VORP, BPM, OWS, DWS, WS/48 and other statistics?
Lemme give you one example.

Gasol brothers. Both centers for their teams. Pau has better PER but is he a better player? Nope. Marc is miles better at VORP, DWS, BPM etc except at ws/48 which Pau has marginal advantage. Marc also is better on defense and Pau has marginal advantage on offense (eye test + stats)

Also, how is comparing Iggy(48% at SG, 51 at SF) and Green(54% at SG, 43 at SF) comparing players that play different positions? Both are wings and both have comparable USG% (18.7 compared to Green's 17.1)

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Why don't you include VORP, BPM, OWS, DWS, WS/48 and other statistics?

1. Time.
2. This is a forum.
3. Why don't you include them? Let me know how far you get.
4. It's not necessary. Why not?

Gasol brothers. Both centers for their teams. Pau has better PER but is he a better player? Nope. Marc is miles better at VORP, DWS, BPM etc except at ws/48 which Pau has marginal advantage. Marc also is better on defense and Pau has marginal advantage on offense (eye test + stats)

You are comparing two players and I am comparing an entire league. Significant difference in application with regard to a standardized rating.

Nitpicking which Gasol is better than the other is not the point - they are pretty clearly top players in the league relative to everyone else. It does nothing to disprove that centers are significantly more effective than they were 20 years ago.

A ball park figure will suffice when comparing 400 player leagues, and PER is certainly that.

[8KB24]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

1. Time.
2. This is a forum.
3. Why don't you include them? Let me know how far you get.
4. It's not necessary. Why not?



You are comparing two players and I am comparing an entire league. Significant difference in application with regard to a standardized rating.

Nitpicking which Gasol is better than the other is not the point - they are pretty clearly top players in the league relative to everyone else. It does nothing to disprove that centers are significantly more effective than they were 20 years ago.

A ball park figure will suffice when comparing 400 player leagues, and PER is certainly that.

PER is flawed is my point. Wright, washed up Amar'e, Gobert, Ed Davis, Kanter, Ajinca, Drummond, Chandler etc are NOT better than Dikembe Mutombo.

I mean Tyler frickin Zeller has better PER than Dikembe did in '95...or '96 when he was one of the best defensive centers ever, if not the best.

[HowDareI]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

PER is flawed is my point. Wright, washed up Amar'e, Gobert, Ed Davis, Kanter, Ajinca, Drummond, Chandler etc are NOT better than Dikembe Mutombo.

I mean Tyler frickin Zeller has better PER than Dikembe did in '95...or '96 when he was one of the best defensive centers ever, if not the best.

That's why I never get too deep into numbers..

Basketball is a team sport and certain players play better in certain systems. If I throw Zach Randolph on the Warriors..lol, how's that gonna work? But Andrew Bogut plays well in the system...doesn't make him better.

[Mauer4MVP]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

That's why I never get too deep into numbers..

Basketball is a team sport and certain players play better in certain systems. If I throw Zach Randolph on the Warriors..lol, how's that gonna work? But Andrew Bogut plays well in the system...doesn't make him better.

Numbers are just as important as the eye test.

And Andrew Bogut is better than Zach Randolph...

[8KB24]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

That's why I never get too deep into numbers..

Basketball is a team sport and certain players play better in certain systems. If I throw Zach Randolph on the Warriors..lol, how's that gonna work? But Andrew Bogut plays well in the system...doesn't make him better.

Exactly. You could also argue that Fisher was a better player with Lakers than Nash, when healthy. Same could be said about so many other players.

Which is why I just laugh off when people use numbers and don't look at the big picture and how those numbers were achieved.

I mean, I truly do believe in analytics which is why I'm pumped about having Hibbert on the floor. Top rim protector and solid rebounder. Some might say weak rebounder but he consistently boxed-out players so that Lance, Hills, West, PG could grab uncontested rebounds. I mean, how can a team be good rebounding team if your 7'2 center is averaging 6-7 per game in 28 minutes? Right? Well, this is where context comes in play, this is where understanding how players achieve those numbers under which they are either glorified/crucified. Lakers actually have decent chance of being average defensive team because of Hibbert. I hope they copy Indy's pnr defense which funnels all action to the rim where you meet big boy roy...or you can take semi-contested long two. Pick your poison.

**i know roy's weak mentally

[SportsFanatic10]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Is it just me, or at this point do we know the least amount of player ratings ever so close to launch?

[DC]

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshot Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner & Cameron Payne

Rashidi is the most arrogant snob in OS History.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

PER is flawed is my point. Wright, washed up Amar'e, Gobert, Ed Davis, Kanter, Ajinca, Drummond, Chandler etc are NOT better than Dikembe Mutombo.

I mean Tyler frickin Zeller has better PER than Dikembe did in '95...or '96 when he was one of the best defensive centers ever, if not the best.

The fact that you are comparing Brandan Wright to Dikembe Mutombo and not the 30th best center of 1995 sums up what's wrong with your approach here.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Sorry I unleashed the beast! Haha

Rashidi, you came with all this data and pulled out certain years to support your argument but I could do the same. You can't just go off numbers and as some said the eye test needs to come into play. What also comes into play is systems or teams they played on. Most guys in today's NBA would only be considered power forwards. You can't argue guys today lack post moves. Gone is the jump hook, up and under, post fadeaways, etc. it's almost all face up now or power drop steps.

If you compiled a list of the bottom 15-20 guys today with the 10-15 of let's say 87 or 88 which was what I originally commented about them maybe we could compare.

Kareem Abdul-jabaar
Akeem Olajuwon
Pat Ewing
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Bill Laimbeer
Kevin Willis
James Donaldson
Robert Parish
Bill Cartwright
Moses Malone
John Salley
Jack Sikma
Paul Mokeski
Brad Daugherty
Alvin Adams
James Edwards
Benoit Benjamin
Alton Listor
Clemson Johnson
Joe Barry Carroll
Sam Bowie
Kevin Duckworth
Artis Gimore
Frank brickowski
LaSalle Thompson
Joe Klein
Danny schayes
Blair Rasmussen
Kent benson
Bill Wennington
Manute Bol

The size alone back then compared to now was night and day although like I said earlier no doubt players are more athletic nowadays. But you can't tell me today's 15-20 centers (pf back in these days) are better than these guys. I'm not sure how old you are so maybe all you have to go off is numbers but I watched these guys play and their fundamentals, post moves, and defense are way ahead of today's players. Athleticism, no. Ability to guard perimeter, no. But strictly on the blocks and in the post not even an argument really.

[8KB24]

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

The fact that you are comparing Brandan Wright to Dikembe Mutombo and not the 30th best center of 1995 sums up what's wrong with your approach here.

No, the fact that PER displays Wrights of the world as better than Mt.Mutombo sums up what's wrong with your approach here. Your approach is too simplistic to cover 400 players comparision.