NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

[Dlee3]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

Didn't 2k last year made it harder to shoot at the beginning then fell under pressure when too many people complain and made it easier?

[bumpyface]

I've been so frustrated with this game I haven't picked it up and played since yesterday. I did notice more shots going in though. I think 2k needs to start testing their games earlier prior to release in order to make the necessary tweaks. Also, someone commented on online not being broken. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I haven't even touched the park but I can tell you quick match up is broken. The lag online is a game breaker, and you can only experience this atrocious lag, if the game doesn't drop right after tip off. While offline is a pleasant experience for the most part, I think it's safe to say that 2k has a lot of work ahead of them. I am so disappointed with the next gen basketball experience right now. In the words of Mr. Frank White, "I hoped we could do better."

[Sundown]

NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

This is pretty much what we feared when it was first announced that the shot system would be more skill based and less random-- that perfect releases could be gamed and glitched to produce unrealistic shooting percentages. We were assured that the shot difficulty was tuned so that they would produce believable outcomes, and for the most part, this was true.

But if the tuning was done with broken shots or if the patch somehow made timing perfect releases easier, fixing the shots seems to have made our nightmare scenario a reality-- that the influence of the simulation engine could effectively be minimized or bypassed with practice. Just like the FT game can be (I shoot like 70-80% at the line with Andrew Bogut). As I understand it, sliders don't even help, as sliders control the simulation engine, and greens effectively renders it moot altogether.

Also there seems to have been way too much fixation over getting green releases. In my opinion, green releases should either not be an automatic make, or green releases should be awarded Vegas video slots style or similar to a Dave and Buster timing game-- where even with perfect timing greens are not guaranteed, but are distributed at a rate that produces somewhat realistic outcomes with some fudging under the hood factoring timing, defense, movement, ratings, etc. So while you aim to get green releases, it would be numerically impossible to bypass the calculations 2K performs to represent believable basketball long term.

I've disabled automatic updates for patches on my XBox One since this sounds to be near game breaking according to numerous reports-- especially since I've been having some great games recently.

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

This is pretty much what we feared when it was first announced that the shot system would be more skill based and less random-- that perfect releases could be gamed and glitched to produce unrealistic shooting percentages. We were assured that the shot difficulty was tuned so that they would produce believable outcomes, and for the most part, this was true.

But if the tuning was done with broken shots or if the patch somehow made timing perfect releases easier, fixing the shots seems to have made our nightmare scenario a reality-- that the influence of the simulation engine could effectively be minimized or bypassed with practice. Just like the FT game can be (I shoot like 70-80% at the line with Andrew Bogut). As I understand it, sliders don't even help, as sliders control the simulation engine, and greens effectively renders it moot altogether.

Also there seems to have been way too much fixation over getting green releases. In my opinion, green releases should either not be an automatic make, or green releases should be awarded Vegas video slots style or similar to a Dave and Buster timing game-- where even with perfect timing greens are not guaranteed, but are distributed at a rate that produces somewhat realistic outcomes with some fudging under the hood factoring timing, defense, movement, ratings, etc. So while you aim to get green releases, it would be numerically impossible to bypass the calculations 2K performs to represent believable basketball long term.

I've disabled automatic updates for patches on my XBox One since this sounds to be near game breaking according to numerous reports-- especially since I've been having some great games recently.

I definitely agree that they tuned the game on broken shots. If they would have had the shots fixed I actually think they would have scrapped the idea of perfect release equals 99% success. They tried to make it too much user skill when the user skill can outweigh the skill of the actual shooter and realism goes out the window. They also made things much worse by giving a higher open bonus for shooting.

The skill based shooting came from people missing A+ releases from 2K14. This is what I said in the other thread.

So Beluba fixed the shot releases and he also added an % increase for being open. The combination of those two would make it extremely easy to shoot and I don't even have the patch but I knew this would happen because I was able to raise my %'s just by fixing a team's "glitched" players.

2K16 recommendation

The shot system needs to be more like 2K14 where perfect release does not equal 100% success or 99%. They need some tweaks in the roster though. Your success should be controlled by limited to the % you shoot by stats combined with how close you can get to perfect release. So say you are a 50% from three when open that is the maximum you should get when you hit perfect green release. You shoot 35% when contested based off stats so when you are contested the maximum even with perfect is 35%.

I said this prior to 2K15 and they did manage to get some of into 2K15. They need to add a wide open rating, shoot off the dribbble rating and contested rating for shooting. That is the bare minimum. Contesting shots doesn't impact every player the same way. Example Kyle Korver shoots 54% when open from 3pt and 44% when contested tight. Curry 46% open, 40% contested tight. I do understand why they did what they did but I think they will have to tune the game to get it right or it will be a slider adjustment. I think this would be the best for 2K16

I am not even sure this can be fixed by slider if you are a shot timing guy. Sounds like you have to go to. real fg%

[kamackeris76]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

This is pretty much what we feared when it was first announced that the shot system would be more skill based and less random-- that perfect releases could be gamed and glitched to produce unrealistic shooting percentages. We were assured that the shot difficulty was tuned so that they would produce believable outcomes, and for the most part, this was true.

But if the tuning was done with broken shots or if the patch somehow made timing perfect releases easier, fixing the shots seems to have made our nightmare scenario a reality-- that the influence of the simulation engine could effectively be minimized or bypassed with practice. Just like the FT game can be (I shoot like 70-80% at the line with Andrew Bogut). As I understand it, sliders don't even help, as sliders control the simulation engine, and greens effectively renders it moot altogether.

Also there seems to have been way too much fixation over getting green releases. In my opinion, green releases should either not be an automatic make, or green releases should be awarded Vegas video slots style or similar to a Dave and Buster timing game-- where even with perfect timing greens are not guaranteed, but are distributed at a rate that produces somewhat realistic outcomes with some fudging under the hood factoring timing, defense, movement, ratings, etc. So while you aim to get green releases, it would be numerically impossible to bypass the calculations 2K performs to represent believable basketball long term.

I've disabled automatic updates for patches on my XBox One since this sounds to be near game breaking according to numerous reports-- especially since I've been having some great games recently.

Can we choose whether to download the patch or not? I can't remember I'm xbox one and I strictly play offline and reading this thread makes me want to not get the update. Which Is a damn shame as the regression issue has been fixed.... 2 steps forward 1 step back

Just wondered as I haven't had this answered yet... I play real player %.....is this ruined also?

[tril]

Didn't 2k last year made it harder to shoot at the beginning then fell under pressure when too many people complain and made it easier?

they've done this numerous times. I believe they did it in 2k12, cause folks was complaining that shooting was too hard in 2k11.

[tril]

another way to fix the user based timing is to add a shooting difficult slider, similar to the free throw difficulty slider.
tie this into the slider attributes for close, medium, layup, mid, and three pointer. it will work, especially if contested shots can alter these variations ever so slightly.
fatigue and shooter hot spots should also be factored into this.

[IgotSyphillis]

If you only play offline, is there a way to delete this patch? Cause I went from averaging 99 points per game on HOF difficulty on about 44% shooting from the field and 32% from 3 to these past couple weeks where I'm averaging about 125 ppg on about 58% shooting and 50% from 3. I don't even play with the shot meter or with shot feedback on. I assume I'm hitting more green shots, I don't like all that stuff taking up areas on my screen during the game so I don't know. But for me, this game went from a sweet challenge to way too easy and boring rea quick. I want my game back.

[JRxPHANTOM]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

If you only play offline, is there a way to delete this patch? Cause I went from averaging 99 points per game on HOF difficulty on about 44% shooting from the field and 32% from 3 to these past couple weeks where I'm averaging about 125 ppg on about 58% shooting and 50% from 3. I don't even play with the shot meter or with shot feedback on. I assume I'm hitting more green shots, I don't like all that stuff taking up areas on my screen during the game so I don't know. But for me, this game went from a sweet challenge to way too easy and boring rea quick. I want my game back.

Only way to get your game back is to rely on 2K to release a patch #5.

[mgrand15]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

I'm fine with increasing the percentage on open shots (although 60% might be too high - they need to use real SportVU numbers). What's bothering me is that unless you're RIGHT in someone's grill - it feels like the game is counting it as open. There needs to be 4 categories - let's use Korver as an example. The best shooter in the league (although he shoots mainly 3s so that drags his percentage down)

Stats are from SportsVU:

Very tight defense (closest defender 0-2 feet) - 47.6% (low frequency)
Tight defense (closest defender 2-4 feet) - 42.6%
Open (4-6 feet) - 52.2%
Wide open - (6+ feet) - 53.7%

These are on shots 10+ feet from the basket - all jump shots, no layups.

As of right now, I feel like unless I heavily contest the shot, the game is registering it as "open" and it's going in 60% of the time. If I'm 2-4 feet away, it feels like an open shot. This makes defense crazy hard because instead of being able to give non-shooters a little bit of cushion then contesting when they start rising up - I have to get ALL the way up on everyone that's even a half decent shooter. My previous strategy conceded the drive for a somewhat contested shot. If they made the jumper, I lived with it. Now? That shot is going in 60% of the time for AVERAGE shooters. Messes up the entire balance of the game.

I'm perfectly fine with the green releases going in 100% of the time. It makes me feel like I'm at the gym, and I'm feeling it, and as soon as I let it go - I know my form was perfect, the arc was perfect and there's no chance it's going to miss. No problem with the green - as long as it's not happening every single time.

Please reconsider that 60% number. It's WAY too high. You'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE in the league that hits 60% of their open jump shots - much less the "average" player. If you're going to settle on that number, please make sure that the game can correctly register when someone is open. A player isn't open if someone is standing right in front of them but didn't hit Triangle or LT.

[CaseIH]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

I'm fine with increasing the percentage on open shots (although 60% might be too high - they need to use real SportVU numbers). What's bothering me is that unless you're RIGHT in someone's grill - it feels like the game is counting it as open. There needs to be 4 categories - let's use Korver as an example. The best shooter in the league (although he shoots mainly 3s so that drags his percentage down)

Stats are from SportsVU:

Very tight defense (closest defender 0-2 feet) - 47.6% (low frequency)
Tight defense (closest defender 2-4 feet) - 42.6%
Open (4-6 feet) - 52.2%
Wide open - (6+ feet) - 53.7%

These are on shots 10+ feet from the basket - all jump shots, no layups.

As of right now, I feel like unless I heavily contest the shot, the game is registering it as "open" and it's going in 60% of the time. If I'm 2-4 feet away, it feels like an open shot. This makes defense crazy hard because instead of being able to give non-shooters a little bit of cushion then contesting when they start rising up - I have to get ALL the way up on everyone that's even a half decent shooter. My previous strategy conceded the drive for a somewhat contested shot. If they made the jumper, I lived with it. Now? That shot is going in 60% of the time for AVERAGE shooters. Messes up the entire balance of the game.

I'm perfectly fine with the green releases going in 100% of the time. It makes me feel like I'm at the gym, and I'm feeling it, and as soon as I let it go - I know my form was perfect, the arc was perfect and there's no chance it's going to miss. No problem with the green - as long as it's not happening every single time.

Please reconsider that 60% number. It's WAY too high. You'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE in the league that hits 60% of their open jump shots - much less the "average" player. If you're going to settle on that number, please make sure that the game can correctly register when someone is open. A player isn't open if someone is standing right in front of them but didn't hit Triangle or LT.

I feel the same way with how shooting should be. Im not sure the game is registering the wide open shot quite right. 60% on a wide open shot is probably a tad to high, unless you are hitting that perfect timing and getting green, then I don't have a issue with it going in 100%,although that probably should e more like 90%. I would say a wide open shot in game without getting a perfect release probably should be closer to 55% rather than 60%.


Since Im a offline gamer I don't have as much of a issue with the shooting as I do all the sliding and being unable to stay infront of your guy. I can adjust sliders to get shooting % down, but cant seem to stop sliding, and have more control over the player with sliders at the moment.

[Coach2K]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

I'm not sure how I feel about the patch.

On the one hand, I shouldn't play hof sim all year and get two green releases for over a 100, 12 minute quarter games and hardly hit anything even in practice mode with no defense. (I'm using the Pacers full time).

On the other hand, guys that get good shots shouldn't be penalized "just because" shooting percentages need to be realistic.

Maybe the real problem here is that we are expecting the CPU engine to keep percentages low when it should be defense that causes low field goal percentage instead.

I think we are really focusing on the wrong problem.

Shooting feels fine to me. Defense though, does not.

[CaseIH]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

I'm not sure how I feel about the patch.

On the one hand, I shouldn't play hof sim all year and get two green releases for over a 100, 12 minute quarter games and hardly hit anything even in practice mode with no defense. (I'm using the Pacers full time).

On the other hand, guys that get good shots shouldn't be penalized "just because" shooting percentages need to be realistic.

Maybe the real problem here is that we are expecting the CPU engine to keep percentages low when it should be defense that causes low field goal percentage instead.

I think we are really focusing on the wrong problem.

Shooting feels fine to me. Defense though, does not.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Id say its more of a defensive issue than a shot timing issue. Because if you happen to be able to get in a good D position you nor the AI will hit a lot of shots. That's on the sim slider setting for shooting.


The problem is because lack of control due to sliding you cant defend well. Its almost impossible to play good D now because everything seems so loose and your on skates trying to defend. Even being the ball handler or the guy you passing to seems to be on ice, as they slide a bunch too.


I play offline, so IM sure its even harder online to stay in front of your man. slider adjusting don't seem to help much either, unless its tuned way down then the gameplay is horrible because it feels they are stuck in sand,lol.


Id say shooting is probably fine, and its the defense and lack of control over the players because of sliding is where the problem lays.

[zrohman]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

I'm not sure how I feel about the patch.

On the one hand, I shouldn't play hof sim all year and get two green releases for over a 100, 12 minute quarter games and hardly hit anything even in practice mode with no defense. (I'm using the Pacers full time).

On the other hand, guys that get good shots shouldn't be penalized "just because" shooting percentages need to be realistic.

Maybe the real problem here is that we are expecting the CPU engine to keep percentages low when it should be defense that causes low field goal percentage instead.

I think we are really focusing on the wrong problem.

Shooting feels fine to me. Defense though, does not.

That's it. Defense has been terrible and unresponsive all year for the user. Sliding around on ice, and the cpu is just playing dumb. That sounds like the correct answer. I'm sure they could knock the shots down 5% but the defense should be the focus

[jrose57]

Re: NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

That's it. Defense has been terrible and unresponsive all year for the user. Sliding around on ice, and the cpu is just playing dumb. That sounds like the correct answer. I'm sure they could knock the shots down 5% but the defense should be the focus

So, would changing SLIDERS fix the defense for both USER and CPU. Yes, I know USER is controlled in our hands but we only control one player at a time and the other four players on the court are controlled by the computer...