Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

You know those combine times that NFL Network and NFL.com posts in "real time", live on your TV? A guy with a stopwatch in the stands does those.

You know how much 30 of the 32 teams pay for the official combine data made available a full WEEK after the combine is over? 80k. You can guess what teams won't pay for them by looking at their not-so-rosy histories with the league.

This is what you are partially wrong about. The real-time data is unofficial and hand-timed. Then, at the end of the day, the official results are made available, and put out for the world to see, for free. Go on NFL.com right now and look. Sammy Watkins 40 times were reported immediately after as 4.34 and 4.37, and were posted in real time. At the end of the day, the official time of 4.43 was announced by the NFL on what website? NFL.com, the official web page of the league, and the website profile was updated. There is no way that 30 of the 32 teams are paying for "official combine data" and 2 of them are not. That would make no sense. And where did you get this information from? If you have proof show it.

[charter04]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

This is why, in no way shape or form should it be ONE guys job to rate every player in the NFL. It should be "Maddens" ratings of the players NOT Donny Moore's ratings. How did this guy bamboozle EA into thinking he is the end all be all in knowledge of NFL players talents? I would think a former scout of even a former player would make a ection. And definitely not one person. It should be a team of people bouncing opinions and facts to come up with the most realistic ratings possible.

To be fair he did mention his ratings team in the article that was posted tonight. I'm not sure how many that is but, they still would be using the same faulty methods imo. Even if their way made the game play at its best I wouldn't mind as much but, other ways of ratings play much better. For one thing acceleration and pursuit are always so high it messes up gameplay. I still can't understand why a player with 87 spd would have 96 pur. All pur really does in game is make them run faster to the ball. Players can't run faster then their ability allows. If you want to use a high Play recognition to simulate smarts and anticipation fine but, why make everyone run faster with another rating?

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

You know how much 30 of the 32 teams pay for the official combine data made available a full WEEK after the combine is over? 80k.

Why would 30 teams spend a combined $2.4 million to get official times a week earlier with the draft still almost two months away?

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Are you telling me that the developers can't come up with a way to make rookies develop FASTER than a 10 year veteran because they are younger, often have less of an injury history, and don't yet have massively declining skills? Maybe something like only being allowed to use a certain amount of XP on a player due to their age, potential, and injury history?

Wow. Could have sworn that Madden used to be able to do that in like Madden 2003, where you see guys advance quickly as rookies, and then less and less as they grow older. But that was 12 years ago, when Madden was actually pretty good and innovative, it's probably impossible now.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that in the system people are advocating, there is no way a player like Sammy Watkins would be able to catch a guy like Keenan Allen. Watkins has a much higher ceiling than Allen, but due to the fact that Allen has a year under his belt and would be mid 80's, Allen would always be better than Watkins in the game. With the current ratings system, it would at least be possible for Watkins to catch up. I'm not saying EA is right with these ratings. For play now, they are slightly inaccurate, but as it relates to CFM, the ratings at least work with the way that progression system works.

[NDAlum]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

These guys are actually rated 90s but they lower AWR to artificially lower their OVR lol

Same old song and dance. Might look into the FBR rosters


Sent from my iPhone 5

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Madden NFL 15 - Top 10 Rookies

Stay calm, and join the Empire.

1. I know you cited raw grades on this forum before. If I recall you gave Drew Brees' arm strength of 2.4 or something similar. I confess that such a number is meaningless to me unless I know the methodology though. And that is what you cannot reveal. Trust me I get that. I am also aware that many times Donny makes comments that leave us shaking our heads. But there are other times where he cites secrets of the trade. By nature I am not a trusting person. I have no reason to believe you are lying, but nor do I have reason to trust you. So again, my questions revolve more around how the raw data is acquired/determined and I understand why you cannot make that public. But when you constantly bring up "I have data that supports it" I admittedly roll my eyes. I hope you understand my position; it is not meant to be hostile.

2.This relates to the above answer. I have no idea who you are; your faq is vague in this area. Might I suggest citing your educational background or something to that effect on the site? To answer your question, sure I would trust the brain surgeon. I would not trust the guy on the internet who says he is a brain surgeon.

3. & 4. " I can't tell you if one came in at the very top, but it wouldn't surprise me"
"Based on the data I have, it has never happened"
Beyond my confusion with those statements, I fully agree that Madden tends to overrate rookies. They tend to treat an average top 10 pick as a once in a decade talent.

5. I am a bit confused on this one. We are not talking about scouting prospects and the draft. I agree that teams should draft on traits; that is fairly clear cut to me. But it is not the same as rating players in a video game. In Madden we are dealing with known quantities (aside from rookies obviously). The issue to me is about getting those known quantities to add up. Generally speaking you can use production to grade a player in madden categories. PFF ratings for an OT in pass block could translate to PBK. A corner's grades in man coverage could translate to their MCV rating.

Are there problems? Absolutely. I read the series on QBs in focus and saw something striking. I looked at QB's numbers on out routes and sorted by average distance thrown. I don't remember the exact numbers but one number was significantly higher than the rest. My initial thought was wow this guy must have a canon of an arm. Turns out the QB was Russell Wilson. Not to say he has a weak arm, but I was surprised. I suspect that his high number was due to rollouts or bootlegs. Point is, it creates a problem. But generally it is adequate to look at production and tendencies and extrapolate individual traits.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

This is why, in no way shape or form should it be ONE guys job to rate every player in the NFL. It should be "Maddens" ratings of the players NOT Donny Moore's ratings. How did this guy bamboozle EA into thinking he is the end all be all in knowledge of NFL players talents? I would think a former scout of even a former player would make a ection. And definitely not one person. It should be a team of people bouncing opinions and facts to come up with the most realistic ratings possible.

How about hiring a scouting service that uses the data that an NFL front office uses based on the opinions of several professional scouts.

Would that work?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

How about hiring a scouting service that uses the data that an NFL front office uses based on the opinions of several professional scouts.

Would that work?

Would work with gameplay, but not within their marketing strategy. To be quite honest I almost feel guilty posting in this thread as I partly feel like I am contributing to the problem.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

To be fair he did mention his ratings team in the article that was posted tonight. I'm not sure how many that is but, they still would be using the same faulty methods imo. Even if their way made the game play at its best I wouldn't mind as much but, other ways of ratings play much better. For one thing acceleration and pursuit are always so high it messes up gameplay. I still can't understand why a player with 87 spd would have 96 pur. All pur really does in game is make them run faster to the ball. Players can't run faster then their ability allows. If you want to use a high Play recognition to simulate smarts and anticipation fine but, why make everyone run faster with another rating?

You hit on my biggest gripe with the game. The underlying code is so borked that they use ratings to cut corners.They seemingly cannot simulate intelligence. Adding to that is the ambiguity behind many ratings.

Wtf does awareness actually do? It is even more of an issue when it comes to rookies because as someone pointed out, nerfing awareness is their favorite way to drop a player's overall.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Are you telling me that the developers can't come up with a way to make rookies develop FASTER than a 10 year veteran because they are younger, often have less of an injury history, and don't yet have massively declining skills? Maybe something like only being allowed to use a certain amount of XP on a player due to their age, potential, and injury history?

Wow. Could have sworn that Madden used to be able to do that in like Madden 2003, where you see guys advance quickly as rookies, and then less and less as they grow older. But that was 12 years ago, when Madden was actually pretty good and innovative, it's probably impossible now.

Young players have lower attribute upgrade XP costs than old players in Connected Franchise and the base cost of upgrading attributes increases as a player ages, which simulates what you're describing.

I don't want to sidetrack this discussion about the merits of Connected Franchise - that's for another thread - but I just wanted to clarify that this is in-fact considered in the design of the mode.

[MEEKS973]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

To make a case for the OL SPD/ACC ratings. I believe "high" speed/acc matter for the plays where you a have a pulling guard. Idk bout many of you guys, but I wouldn't want to have a 50 spd/40 acc pulling for me. That's just my thinking though.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

This is what you are partially wrong about. The real-time data is unofficial and hand-timed. Then, at the end of the day, the official results are made available, and put out for the world to see, for free. Go on NFL.com right now and look. Sammy Watkins 40 times were reported immediately after as 4.34 and 4.37, and were posted in real time. At the end of the day, the official time of 4.43 was announced by the NFL on what website? NFL.com, the official web page of the league, and the website profile was updated. There is no way that 30 of the 32 teams are paying for "official combine data" and 2 of them are not. That would make no sense. And where did you get this information from? If you have proof show it.

I fully understand that. What I am saying is that BLESTO/Pro Scouting doesn't release their official data until a full week AFTER the combine and it differs very widely from what the NFL produces on-site. Did NFL Network provide to you the "official" split times? Are they all published on NFL.com?

Nope.

The cool thing is that in my business, you know people...people who are willing to give you stuff for free. I get that data the same time the NFL releases it.

Also, it's kinda funny that NFL Network has him "officially" at a 4.43 with NO published split times, yet, I have his best time with all of the split times!

4.39
2.52
1.54

Or am I just making it all up knowing full well that NFLDS has the same numbers and they provide all of the scouting info for CBS Sports? Or did I just rip it off from NFLDS? Wouldn't they be mad at me for using their data? OH WAIT! They actually power and run my website so I don't have to pay for it! What awesome luck! I wonder how THAT happened?

You tell me. If you want more proof, I can prove to you that the NFL, Pro Scouting, and BLESTO have tried for the last 3 years to sue NFLDS for posting this information for FREE! Let me make a phone call and see if I can get a copy of some of that paperwork, as ridiculous as it is. It would be public knowledge, if they took it to court, which they didn't, probably knowing full-well that we had every right to post it even if we may have not paid the full 80k for it like 30 NFL teams do every year.

As for 2 teams not paying for them - I will give you a hint - one of them had a very large grudge with the NFL back in the 80s, and their former owner just recently passed away.

Once again, it comes down to who you know. I know some people who are pros in this business. Do you? Do you know that "The Godfather" himself was known for taking a full tenth off of "reported" 40 times just because a kid went to Texas? It's known in the scouting rings as the "Texas Tenth". Ever heard of it? I doubt it has even been published anywhere, but yet, most scouts have heard of it. Or am I making this stuff up too along with my "official" 40 times and split times?

So, either I am completely full of crap and am making up all this stuff as I am going along, OR I have some credibility that I am presenting to the community via realistic Madden ratings, with players rated the way scouts would rate them. It can't be both.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Why would 30 teams spend a combined $2.4 million to get official times a week earlier with the draft still almost two months away?

Not earlier. They pay to get the official times directly from Pro Scouting/BLESTO AFTER the combine is over and all of the data is tested for accuracy. Believe it or not, that fancy timer actually BREAKS during some of these kids runs. Let me see if I can pull up an example from this year. It is somewhere in the database. That is also how you can tell that NFL Network is full of crap. How can they post an unofficial or official time if the darn timer breaks during the run?

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

You hit on my biggest gripe with the game. The underlying code is so borked that they use ratings to cut corners.They seemingly cannot simulate intelligence. Adding to that is the ambiguity behind many ratings.

Wtf does awareness actually do? It is even more of an issue when it comes to rookies because as someone pointed out, nerfing awareness is their favorite way to drop a player's overall.

The way I understand it, AWR keeps players in correct positioning to make plays. It keeps a RB from drifting away from the line while pass blocking, allows CPU QB's to make smarter decisions, makes WR's run the correct route (not sure about in madden, but occasionally in previous NCAA games, low AWR WR's would run wrong routes). It keeps a defensive player in his assignment as well. Play a low AWR CB at FS and watch what happens. Occasionally, they will make mental mistakes and get beat deep. Low AWR OL will false start more often, low AWR DL will jump more often hopefully in Madden 15. Remember the passing cone in the past from like 2006 or something? That was all AWR. In NCAA, low AWR QB's on the road would be inconsistent, and pre-play, the controller would shake and you couldn't see play art.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I fully understand that. What I am saying is that BLESTO/Pro Scouting doesn't release their official data until a full week AFTER the combine and it differs very widely from what the NFL produces on-site. Did NFL Network provide to you the "official" split times? Are they all published on NFL.com?

Nope.

The cool thing is that in my business, you know people...people who are willing to give you stuff for free. I get that data the same time the NFL releases it.

Also, it's kinda funny that NFL Network has him "officially" at a 4.43 with NO published split times, yet, I have his best time with all of the split times!

4.39
2.52
1.54

Or am I just making it all up knowing full well that NFLDS has the same numbers and they provide all of the scouting info for CBS Sports? Or did I just rip it off from NFLDS? Wouldn't they be mad at me for using their data? OH WAIT! They actually power and run my website so I don't have to pay for it! What awesome luck! I wonder how THAT happened?

You tell me. If you want more proof, I can prove to you that the NFL, Pro Scouting, and BLESTO have tried for the last 3 years to sue NFLDS for posting this information for FREE! Let me make a phone call and see if I can get a copy of some of that paperwork, as ridiculous as it is. It would be public knowledge, if they took it to court, which they didn't, probably knowing full-well that we had every right to post it even if we may have not paid the full 80k for it like 30 NFL teams do every year.

As for 2 teams not paying for them - I will give you a hint - one of them had a very large grudge with the NFL back in the 80s, and their former owner just recently passed away.

Once again, it comes down to who you know. I know some people who are pros in this business. Do you? Do you know that "The Godfather" himself was known for taking a full tenth off of "reported" 40 times just because a kid went to Texas? It's known in the scouting rings as the "Texas Tenth". Ever heard of it? I doubt it has even been published anywhere, but yet, most scouts have heard of it. Or am I making this stuff up too along with my "official" 40 times and split times?

So, either I am completely full of crap and am making up all this stuff as I am going along, OR I have some credibility that I am presenting to the community via realistic Madden ratings, with players rated the way scouts would rate them. It can't be both.

Are they planning on unveiling a new statue anytime soon?