Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

[bxphenom7]

Up and down time for Madden. Comes in with the negative stuff it always does, live-stream excites people, then these high ratings bring it back down. Wonder how much the modes changed.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15 - Top 10 Rookies

I appreciate what you do but I do have a few concerns.

1. You say you have data to back up your claims but when asked for it you cannot release it for legal reasons. I understand that you are required to abide by the NDA but it still comes off odd. Donny Moore says the same thing.

I have a few people who can attest to the data. Dr. Craig Larner, formerly of Texas A&M University is one of them. Look him up, and contact him to vouch for it. I doubt he would put his professional reputation on the line over myth...especially considering he is a scientist, first and foremost. What Donny often cites is "Youtube Scouting". He has mentioned several times about why players are rated the way they are based on what he sees and references on Youtube. Why else do you think he has Desean Jackson as the fastest player in the league. SMH. BTW, it isn't just one NDA...I had to sign SEVERAL. You don't have to take my word for it, though. You either buy it or you don't. I have often cited on this forum some of the "raw" grades for certain players regarding their attributes. You can look that up. Even that is "borderline" for me, but as long as I am not providing massive downloads, I should be within my legal limits.

2. Regarding the portion about any rookie being tops in any category I must ask, according to who? Your source? Well that is problematic for me. It is almost circular. Rating technical attributes (no matter what your methodology is) is subjective.

The technical ratings are very subjective, yes. However, would you rather trust a brain surgeon when you suffer from a brain embolism or the NASCAR fan who just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night? Everything I do is based on source data. I will refer you to our FAQ page.

3. You also slightly shifted the goal posts a bit on this. You went from "there should NEVER be a player rated that high as a rookie in ANY of those categories." to "not been ONE rookie that entered the league as tops in any category." Has Madden ever rated a rookie as tops in a technical category?

In any of the technical categories, no. Physical? Possibly, but rarely. Data going back to 1997 gives you a pretty broad spectrum of which most players (we add about 2500 of the 9000 rookies to the site every year) fit within. I can't tell you if one came in at the very top, but it wouldn't surprise me. The larger point is that the data I have posits that these rookies shouldn't even be in the top 10% for the most part, with very, very few exceptions. Instead, EA seems to defy that. I am NOT saying it is the end-all, be-all, but based on what I personally know from doing this for several years, even going back to my scouting days as NFLDS, I tend to side with the scouts.

4. This is more of a personal quirk, but I just dislike use of the word never. Just because it has not happened does not mean it will not.

Based on the data I have, it has never happened. This is not the same as saying it won't, but that probability is closer to a guy like me winning the PowerBall...and I don't buy tickets.

5. Regarding PFF and its relationship with Madden, it is a tricky thing. I know you have spoken about the difference between traits and production before and I get what you are saying. But I think the primary goal when rating players in a videogame should be to come as close as possible to replicating real life results. So, and others may disagree, I think matching production should take precedence over traits.

If Madden had a "YPC Outside The Tackles" rating or a "Completion % on Go Routes" rating, then sure, it would work. But even NFL front offices don't draft based on production. They draft based on traits.

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/...tion_strategy/

Bill Belichick does the same thing. In fact, he's often given credit for saying it first. That guy can back it up.

6. Most importantly, I am not a fan of Donny Moore. Don't take this as me defending him or anything. Madden's rating philosophy is pretty bad in my view.

Stay calm, and join the Empire.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I might be the odd one out but I actually support these "high" ratings. First off I'm sure EA wants the top players rated fairly high otherwise they wouldn't be as fun to play with. If Manziel was a 66 and Clowney was a 71 there would be very little hype for the rookie class and the game. Also higher ratings give the players more of an impact. We all know that rookies (some, not all) are going to excel and going to make a huge difference for their teams this year, we just can't always predict who. Other than free agency, without the draft there's not much else to shake up the rosters from year to year.

Also there were 256 players drafted and probable a few dozen more UDFA that will make rosters this year. If only 13 rookies are rated 78+ that's only 5% of the new class making it into the upper 70s and being impact starters in the game.

Also it could be worse. Remember when Reggie Bush came out as a 87 OVR?

The bold is untrue, imo, it's possible to have rookies realistically rated and still fun to play with in-game. Like DECEBB points out, physical ability is what it is, meaning if a rookie can have phenomenal physical gifts, speed, strength, size, etc, which can all be utilize in their ratings to make them fun to play with, while their skill ratings keeps them realistically limited.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I agree with anything u have said here..one side note I'm "Shocked" Watkins speed is so low..to be honest one of the few positives I see..speed appears to be lowered well except for OL..shm..side note I love JD Clowney..however 90's for power move? Look he did all his work on ability, first step explosion, unreal speed for that size and strength...very little of it was on technique..this is out of control high..when I think 90's power moves I think Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Michael Strahan, the greats, maybe even JJ Watt ..JD Clowney has once every 10/15 year physical gifts not hand placement, counter moves, even leverage..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't have Watkins as a burner, but he has near-elite speed. More fast than quick, though.

http://www.fbgratings.com/members/profile.php?pyid=119364

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

One of the things about ratings is how EA manipulates overalls by adjusting individual attributes.

My go to example is Joe Flacco. Look back a few seasons ago and check his arm strength. Then check it after he won SB MVP. Then check what it was on the last update this past season.

Has his arm strength changed? Of course not. EA raises or lowers his THP to achieve a desired overall. Of course they do this for several players, I just cite Joe because I am a Ravens fan and his overall fluctuates frequently. Ray Rice's speed is another example.

EA/Moore have a preconceived overall in mind for each player so they tweak attributes to reach that goal or.

This is bad for two reasons.
First it is manipulation and I don't like that. Second it should tell them there is a problem with Madden's ratings if when they give guys what they believe to be accurate ratings does not result in accurate results.

Hopefully the new change in gameplay mindset will lead to a change in rating philosophy.

I once tried to rate players solely on their individual attributes, being the most realistic way to grade a player. Once the calculated OVR ratings went up, my inbox was flooded with hate-mail about how Wes Welker should be a 95 and not a 75 because he is not the most athletic guy out there...just very savvy and played with two of the best QBs to ever play the game.

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Completely disagree here. Rookies should have those ratings warranted when they EARN THEM. NOT before their first season starts! They haven't even entered camp yet (except for the Bills)! I would prefer, in CFM, to have REALISTIC physical attributes and then build on them with XP going to honing the skills...you know...LIKE IN REAL LIFE. From this day forward, for every season accrued, these players will get slower, less agile, less twitchy, and even less strong as their bodies deteriorate over time. What is it that keeps the good ones in the game? THEIR TECHNICAL SKILLS! They learn to amass so much knowledge and technique, that they can overcome their physical regression with better technique and training.

Do you think Jerry Rice was productive in Oakland because he still ran a 4.58? He was productive because he was easily the smartest, most experienced player on the field who could turn blanket coverage by a corner's raw ability into a 5 yard deficit by running a route at 99% accuracy. But instead, we can increase speed, agility, yada, yada, yada.

The data I have shows that teams grade rookies very low and after, and ONLY after they prove their worth, do their grades go up. NOT before they even play one competitive snap against the best in the world! EA's logic is BACKWARD. Rate them as they are NOW, not what you "think" they "may" be in the future. Nobody has a crystal ball and that is why we get draft busts. Let these guys prove it first!

The problem is, CFM would likely be broken then. Rookies would be at a massive disadvantage, as none of them would likely develop properly compared to the other young players who have played a year. Then we'd have people complaining about that. It's a lose-lose situation.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Dan, the guy who runs FBG ratings had an interview for that job and they asked if he would alter ratings if an EA exec wanted him to for different reasons. I believe that is the reason he didn't take or whatever. They know all about his site. I just think these ratings have become a monster that won't change. I think they don't want to offend players too much. People look at them like it's the official ratings. I'm not even sure he he uses the scouting data that FBG ratings uses that costs a lot of money to get. Stuff NFL teams use. I mean doesn't anyone think NFL teams get their data from NFL.com?

You know those combine times that NFL Network and NFL.com posts in "real time", live on your TV? A guy with a stopwatch in the stands does those.

You know how much 30 of the 32 teams pay for the official combine data made available a full WEEK after the combine is over? 80k. You can guess what teams won't pay for them by looking at their not-so-rosy histories with the league.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I will say this about Donny Moore. He seems like a good guy and seems to work hard and love e his job. I just think he's in a lose lose situation. Some will complain the ratings are too high while others appalled that they are too low. I don't want his job I'll tell you that. Lol

I just feel he uses a faulty way to rate. Seems like watching games, you tube scouting, NFL.com "official" combine numbers, and outside pressure is his total method. It just makes the gameplay less realistic and more arcade, no matter how good a job the gameplay guys do.

I do. I would love his job. Too bad he gets hamstrung by his own execs.

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Dan, the guy who runs FBG ratings had an interview for that job and they asked if he would alter ratings if an EA exec wanted him to for different reasons. I believe that is the reason he didn't take or whatever. They know all about his site. I just think these ratings have become a monster that won't change. I think they don't want to offend players too much. People look at them like it's the official ratings. I'm not even sure he he uses the scouting data that FBG ratings uses that costs a lot of money to get. Stuff NFL teams use. I mean doesn't anyone think NFL teams get their data from NFL.com?

He uses his own sources for data. Just because he doesn't use what FBG uses doesn't mean he's wrong. And you act like the data FBG uses is something EA can't afford. And the data on nfl.com is official from the combine. And I doubt NFL teams use what FBG uses, if whatever it is even exists. NFL teams make their own individual evaluations, which is what they pay scouts for.

[charter04]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I once tried to rate players solely on their individual attributes, being the most realistic way to grade a player. Once the calculated OVR ratings went up, my inbox was flooded with hate-mail about how Wes Welker should be a 95 and not a 75 because he is not the most athletic guy out there...just very savvy and played with two of the best QBs to ever play the game.

That's actually still my favorite ratings. I still have the 360 version of those. They play great. Welker is still very productive in the game at 75.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

The problem is, CFM would likely be broken then. Rookies would be at a massive disadvantage, as none of them would likely develop properly compared to the other young players who have played a year. Then we'd have people complaining about that. It's a lose-lose situation.

Are you telling me that the developers can't come up with a way to make rookies develop FASTER than a 10 year veteran because they are younger, often have less of an injury history, and don't yet have massively declining skills? Maybe something like only being allowed to use a certain amount of XP on a player due to their age, potential, and injury history?

Wow. Could have sworn that Madden used to be able to do that in like Madden 2003, where you see guys advance quickly as rookies, and then less and less as they grow older. But that was 12 years ago, when Madden was actually pretty good and innovative, it's probably impossible now.

[charter04]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

He uses his own sources for data. Just because he doesn't use what FBG uses doesn't mean he's wrong. And you act like the data FBG uses is something EA can't afford. And the data on nfl.com is official from the combine. And I doubt NFL teams use what FBG uses, if whatever it is even exists. NFL teams make their own individual evaluations, which is what they pay scouts for.

NFL.com is not official. Lol you just keep believing what you want. Since this is the EA ratings thread I'm going to end it at that. For more discussion on the fbg ratings go to that thread. I go to the site that uses the same info he uses all the time. He probably has the link.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

He uses his own sources for data. Just because he doesn't use what FBG uses doesn't mean he's wrong. And you act like the data FBG uses is something EA can't afford. And the data on nfl.com is official from the combine. And I doubt NFL teams use what FBG uses, if whatever it is even exists. NFL teams make their own individual evaluations, which is what they pay scouts for.

Donny is that YOU???

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I won't even waste my time addressing them.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

That's actually still my favorite ratings. I still have the 360 version of those. They play great. Welker is still very productive in the game at 75.

I know that. You know that. The mouth-breathers don't. Equal interval ratings with no OVR rating! Ahhhh, now THAT would make for realistic gameplay.

[CT Pitbull]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I will say this about Donny Moore. He seems like a good guy and seems to work hard and love e his job. I just think he's in a lose lose situation. Some will complain the ratings are too high while others appalled that they are too low. I don't want his job I'll tell you that. Lol

I just feel he uses a faulty way to rate. Seems like watching games, you tube scouting, NFL.com "official" combine numbers, and outside pressure is his total method. It just makes the gameplay less realistic and more arcade, no matter how good a job the gameplay guys do.

This is why, in no way shape or form should it be ONE guys job to rate every player in the NFL. It should be "Maddens" ratings of the players NOT Donny Moore's ratings. How did this guy bamboozle EA into thinking he is the end all be all in knowledge of NFL players talents? I would think a former scout of even a former player would make a better selection. And definitely not one person. It should be a team of people bouncing opinions and facts to come up with the most realistic ratings possible.