Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

[Perfect Zero]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

I personally think the Hall has outlived its useful life. So many people want the Hall to be so many different things that it will never live up to anybody's expectations. We all have the stats in front of us so we know who was good and who wasn't. The Hall isn't really meant to be about stats anyways or else there would be thresholds to meet. I think it's a non issue.

[DrJones]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

Ok no, that's not at all where I was going with the" terrible people" comment. I have no idea how you arrived at that. My point was, baseball writers, the commish, and some fans have this notion that McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens etc, any steroid user was just a horrible human being.

The media treated these individuals like they were real criminals, and a lot of the public bought it.

Ah, I see. I'm just saying that I have no problem saying that:

A. Roger Clemens is a cheater and a liar
B. Roger Clemens is a horrible human being (see McCreary, Mindy)
C. Roger Clemens is a Hall of Fame pitcher

Many fans and media have difficulty with that. They want to think on-field accomplishment goes hand in hand with character. "Jameis Winston loses to Auburn: karmic payback!" "Jameis Winston beats Auburn: redemption!" Whereas Winston is either a victim or a scumbag regardless of how good he is.

I think it's fine for journalists to expose steroid users. I think it's fine for journalists to call users (or Albert Belle, or Kevin Brown) awful human beings. I don't think it's fine for journalists to use that as a reason not to vote for them. A big reason Kirby Puckett sailed easily into Cooperstown (not saying he shouldn't be there, but he was far, far from being a lock based on merit) was because of how gosh-darn likable he was. Oops.

[speels]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

I personally think the Hall has outlived its useful life. So many people want the Hall to be so many different things that it will never live up to anybody's expectations. We all have the stats in front of us so we know who was good and who wasn't. The Hall isn't really meant to be about stats anyways or else there would be thresholds to meet. I think it's a non issue.

I agree, the baseball Hall of Fame is a joke. I mean there is no way that non-playing people should be voting on who is the best and deserves to be in the hall. These people are writers and in no way are they experts at the game. I think for the Hall to gain any sort of momentum they need to go to a selection committee made up of former players, Hall of Famers, owners, umpires, etc to come up with people that deserve to be honoured as HoF.
It is the biggest joke in sports........................next to my Leafs!!

[speels]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

Ah, I see. I'm just saying that I have no problem saying that:

A. Roger Clemens is a cheater and a liar
B. Roger Clemens is a horrible human being (see McCreary, Mindy)
C. Roger Clemens is a Hall of Fame pitcher

I think it's fine for journalists to expose steroid users. I think it's fine for journalists to call users (or Albert Belle, or Kevin Brown) awful human beings. I don't think it's fine for journalists to use that as a reason not to vote for them. A big reason Kirby Puckett sailed easily into Cooperstown (not saying he shouldn't be there, but he was far, far from being a lock based on merit) was because of how gosh-darn likable he was. Oops.

How many writers have lied in an article or stretched the truth. They are all worthy of their vote I am sure.

[DrJones]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

I agree, the baseball Hall of Fame is a joke. I mean there is no way that non-playing people should be voting on who is the best and deserves to be in the hall. These people are writers and in no way are they experts at the game. I think for the Hall to gain any sort of momentum they need to go to a selection committee made up of former players, Hall of Famers, owners, umpires, etc to come up with people that deserve to be honoured as HoF.

That way leads to Gold Glove voting and the Veterans Committee ("Let's put my old drinking buddy who hit .237 in the Hall!"). Pass.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

Ah, I see. I'm just saying that I have no problem saying that:

A. Roger Clemens is a cheater and a liar
B. Roger Clemens is a horrible human being (see McCreary, Mindy)
C. Roger Clemens is a Hall of Fame pitcher

Many fans and media have difficulty with that. They want to think on-field accomplishment goes hand in hand with character. "Jameis Winston loses to Auburn: karmic payback!" "Jameis Winston beats Auburn: redemption!" Whereas Winston is either a victim or a scumbag regardless of how good he is.

I think it's fine for journalists to expose steroid users. I think it's fine for journalists to call users (or Albert Belle, or Kevin Brown) awful human beings. I don't think it's fine for journalists to use that as a reason not to vote for them. A big reason Kirby Puckett sailed easily into Cooperstown (not saying he shouldn't be there, but he was far, far from being a lock based on merit) was because of how gosh-darn likable he was. Oops.

That's the issue, for every Roger Clemens there's a Jay Mariotti. For every Albert Belle. There's a Steve Phillips. It goes hand and hand. Sportswriters aren't moral angels either. I'm sick of the holier then thou bs.

[Sheamazin]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

What about managers that clearly benefitted from the steroid use of their players?

Torre and LaRussa had a bunch of players(Canseco, McGuire, Giambi, Pettite and more) on their teams when they winning Championships.

The players aren't the only ones who benefitted and had major success from the use of steroids.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

What about managers that clearly benefitted from the steroid use of their players?

Torre and LaRussa had a bunch of players(Canseco, McGuire, Giambi, Pettite and more) on their teams when they winning Championships.

The players aren't the only ones who benefitted and had major success from the use of steroids.

Just as Bud Selig benefitted from the players. The hypocrisy is outstanding.

[worstsportsgamer1977]

yes they should. especially if they were great players. just tell there story truthfully. mac and bonds, without a doubt deserve to be in the hof. even though they were on steroids they were both extremely talented. the steroids just kept them around a little longer. put them in, mabey just dont do a ceremony for them.

[juicer420]

The writers wrote the stories that turned these players into immortals.
The owners, tv networks, Bud Selig and MLB as a whole cashed in on the use of PEDs.
They created the culture that promoted massive home runs numbers and in essence promoted the use of PEDs.
There was no testing in baseball and although federally illegal, PEDs were not officially illegal in the MLB.
It took 15-20 years before they cracked down on it and only after the federal government got involved.
Much of the blame must fall on the players. They broke the moral code at there own risk of reputation. But the incentives to take that risk were created by the writers, the owners, MLB and the fans.

Now, some writers take part in vilifying the users. The owners and MLB turned their backs on the players to save their own skins. The fans became huge hypocrites when they call out other users and continue to idolize the players from their favorite teams that were users. And the PED users are hung out to dry and take all the blame.

This entire messed was created by everyone. With all this said, the Hall of Fame, which is a collection of the game's best, is not a complete set.

I personally believe that when a season comes around that there is no sure fire clean first ballot player, the writers, MLB, and the Hall of Fame take the chance to induct all these players at once, mark the induction with an asterisk, and move on from the entire mess for good. This yearly story does nothing to solve the problem or promote the game of baseball in a positive light. It just diminishes the entire induction.

[Perfect Zero]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

I agree, the baseball Hall of Fame is a joke. I mean there is no way that non-playing people should be voting on who is the best and deserves to be in the hall. These people are writers and in no way are they experts at the game. I think for the Hall to gain any sort of momentum they need to go to a selection committee made up of former players, Hall of Famers, owners, umpires, etc to come up with people that deserve to be honoured as HoF.
It is the biggest joke in sports........................next to my Leafs!!

Wait a second here, I never said it was a joke. All I said was its time has gone past. Think back even to the nineties: the only way to really remember a player was old game tape and stat books. Now you can find the ratio of fly ball outs to nose hair if you really want to. The Hall was never a repository of stats, it has always been about protecting the purity of the game. Joe Jackson (wrongly IMO, but a discussion for another day) was not pure and has been left out. Pete Rose was not pure and has been left out. Barry Bonds was not pure, and will be left out.

I can go on Baseball Reference right now and tell you the hundred greatest players of all time. I can't go on there and tell you the character of the player or the effort they put in. That's what the Hall has always been about and will continue to be about, even if it ignores womanizing, backdoor cheating or bigotry. So many people are mad that the Hall is not purely about the stats when it was never meant to be in the first place.

[DrJones]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

The writers wrote the stories that turned these players into immortals.
The owners, tv networks, Bud Selig and MLB as a whole cashed in on the use of PEDs.
They created the culture that promoted massive home runs numbers and in essence promoted the use of PEDs.
There was no testing in baseball and although federally illegal, PEDs were not officially illegal in the MLB.
It took 15-20 years before they cracked down on it and only after the federal government got involved.
Much of the blame must fall on the players. They broke the moral code at there own risk of reputation. But the incentives to take that risk were created by the writers, the owners, MLB and the fans.

That part's not true. Although there was no testing until 2004, steroids were banned by MLB in 1991.

[juicer420]

That part's not true. Although there was no testing until 2004, steroids were banned by MLB in 1991.

Yea, I shouldn't have made it such an end all statement there, but what I meant was that there was no official system governing it and no associated penalties for taking PEDs. MLB's policy has always seemed more about appeasing the government then cleaning up the game.

Having it banned and not testing for it or punishing anyone for use is the equivalent to making drunk driving illegal, but cops don't pull over, test, or arrest anyone suspected of drinking and driving.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Sound Off: Should Steroid Users Get in the HOF?

<url> Yes. </url>

[Bryzine21]

They should definitely NOT get in the Hall of Fame.