Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

[khaliib]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

The goal of any devs to make money...which means sell LOTS of games. Every single non-licensed football games that came out the past couple of years were commercial failures. Some of them were really good and (for some) better than the licensed stuff, but it didn't matter. People want to buy the "real" thing.

While it's true that you can still buy a great football game without the NFL license, the majority just don't care if it's not licensed.

If you look at why those games really didn't do well, it's because they were too gimmicky and strayed away from football fundamentals and authentic gameplay. All lacked in the authentic football experience in one way or another and the biggest gripe seemed to center around the horrible Franchise mode of the games.
All failed in this area along with lack of full customization for gamers to tweak.

You won't hear complaints about an NFL package on Backbreaker, because gamers were able to create NFL teams with the editor. It wasn't a lack of NFL brand on their game, it was the gimmicky presentation and the various gameplay issues that plagued the game.

All-Pro 2k8 suffered because there was no Franchise and editing features were very limited. Gamers got what the Dev's put out and that was it. Gameplay wise, they were on the right road. Again, the Legends path was gimmicky and had no replay value from the beginning, plain and simple.
It was a quick play mode sold as the full game.

I would say this argument holds true for Casual gamers, not the Hardcore base that's on these forums months after the release testing/tweaking and exchanging ideas daily to improve the game's football experience.
**I would say more time is spent tweaking than actually playing the game!!!

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Sorry, but I do not see it that way at all. EA lowered their price WILLINGLY to compete with 2K. They did so understanding they would be losing money to maintain market share. Both companies had an NFL license then, but none of us know how much each company paid for their licenses, so we do not know how much the price war impacted each company.

EA did not eliminate 2K, the NFL did. When EA outbid 2K, the reported numbers for the agreement were STAGGERING leading many to question openly how EA could recoup their licensing investment over the term of the contract. Of course EA raised their prices back to pre-price war pricing for the simple fact that they had to start recouping their investment for the new exclusive license. The way some make it sound, you would think EA not only raised prices back to previous levels, but tacked on another $20 to the price. How anyone can fault EA for bringing the pricing back to accepted levels (in line with other sports games and video games) is beyond me. I hope this lawsuit dies a very quick and painful death.

Sorry, you're not seeing it the right way then. There is no such thing as "accepted" levels for pricing; demand and competition, when it actually exists, determines the price of a product. Here are the facts: EA lowered the price of Madden to $30 after 2k set their price ( for 2k5) to $20. After 2k was eliminated as a competitor, Madden went back up to $50; that's the problem, and it's also true that the EA approached the NFL about exclusive licensing several times before the NFL finally agreed. Had EA kept their price at $50 and simply acquired the exclusive license, this case wouldn't have any legs, but the problem is that they were selling Madden for $30 only until they got rid of the competition.

Whatever the outcome of this case may be, EA will probably just settle, it's good for us gamers. The NFL is already in another lawsuit with American Needle concerning the NFL's exclusive deal with Reebok. Why would they renew the deal and risk another lawsuit when the exclusive license hasn't increased sales to begin with ? Honestly, I don't know why the NFL renewed the license the first time; sales ( for Madden) have gone down each year after EA made the deal.

[roadman]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Sorry, you're not seeing it the right way then. There is no such thing as "accepted" levels for pricing; demand and competition, when it actually exists, determines the price of a product. Here are the facts: EA lowered the price of Madden to $30 after 2k set their price ( for 2k5) to $20. After 2k was eliminated as a competitor, Madden went back up to $50; that's the problem, and it's also true that the EA approached the NFL about exclusive licensing several times before the NFL finally agreed. Had EA kept their price at $50 and simply acquired the exclusive license, this case wouldn't have any legs, but the problem is that they were selling Madden for $30 only until they got rid of the competition.

Whatever the outcome of this case may be, EA will probably just settle, it's good for us gamers. The NFL is already in another lawsuit with American Needle concerning the NFL's exclusive deal with Reebok. Why would they renew the deal and risk another lawsuit when the exclusive license hasn't increased sales to begin with ? Honestly, I don't know why the NFL renewed the license the first time; sales ( for Madden) have gone down each year after EA made the deal.

Your first paragraph, it still makes 2 parties to make a deal. Does it really matter who approached who? In the business world and court of law, no, but in the critical world of video football gamers, it sure does. Bottom line, it's all about business. It's very clear that the cost of the incense had a direct impact on the price increase of Madden.

In your next paragraph, why should the NFL care if Madden sales go up or down. They have their money upfront.

It's similar to the satellite deal. Why should the NFL care if DirectTV goes up or down in football subscriptions each year? They have their money.

[Only1LT]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

spankdatazz22 - I agree that EA did what they wanted to do all along but as I've stated many times, the license was the NFL's and various other entities to sell. That's where any sort of legal challenge should be focused, if at all. But again even then it'd make no sense to do that because they own their own product and can sell it to one dev or 20 devs, there is no "monopoly" issue on them and how they manage it since it's a private copyright of a non-public item.

Again, this may change in the very near future.

[Only1LT]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

I would defer your answer to any of the hundreds of roster/slider threads on various forums along with the thousands of team creations from backbreaker and the NCAA online editor.

Take a look at the usage of 3rd party apps like Finn's 2k/Backbreaker editors and Pocketscout's NCAA app for football alone.
The numbers are there that show the willingness/want for full customization.

I would also say that Finn's 2k editors had a role in encouraging what we see in NBA 2k11. Many are saying NBA 2k11 is the standard for future Sports games editing functions.

Also, I would take a look at Ian Cummings thread asking the community for their thought on the idea for future Madden releases.

They really don't have to go this route, but this case is bigger and goes far beyond video games.

The one, and most important, number that you left out is the number of copies that Backbreaker sold. 70k if I'm not mistaken. They made so little that they couldn't even afford to put out a patch to fix a horribly broken run game.

I love Backbreaker as a concept, and really enjoy, or should I say enjoyed it, until the running game was broken, but the proof is out there that the public, en masse, will not support a non licensed sports game.

[ODogg]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Only1LT - you're not getting my point, there can never be a monopoly on a private copyrighted product such as the NFL brand. Anyone's entitled to make a football game but the NFL controls the brand. A monopoly is not ever applicable to a brand like the NFL due to the nature of it not being deemed a public goods or service used by the public sector (unlike say wood, gas, oxygen, gasoline, the radio or tv airwaves, etc).

[ryan36]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

The one, and most important, number that you left out is the number of copies that Backbreaker sold. 70k if I'm not mistaken. They made so little that they couldn't even afford to put out a patch to fix a horribly broken run game.

I love Backbreaker as a concept, and really enjoy, or should I say enjoyed it, until the running game was broken, but the proof is out there that the public, en masse, will not support a non licensed sports game.

They put out a patch.

[Only1LT]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

They put out a patch.

They did, and that patch broke the running game. They wanted to do another patch to fix what the last patch did, but couldn't because 505 Games dropped them faster than if Natural Motion changed their name to Glass Jaw lol.

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Your first paragraph, it still makes 2 parties to make a deal. Does it really matter who approached who? In the business world and court of law, no, but in the critical world of video football gamers, it sure does. Bottom line, it's all about business. It's very clear that the cost of the incense had a direct impact on the price increase of Madden.

Exactly, it does take two parties to make a deal, and who approached who is irrelevant. If EA and the NFL both made a deal, that was illegal, how does that invalidate the case at hand ?

In your next paragraph, why should the NFL care if Madden sales go up or down. They have their money upfront.

Sorry, I meant to say that I don't know why EA, not the NFL, renewed the licensed couple years back, or would want to renew the license again. The exclusive deal has only increased the cost of doing business; it hasn't increased sales or profits.
[/QUOTE]

[Only1LT]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Only1LT - you're not getting my point, there can never be a monopoly on a private copyrighted product such as the NFL brand. Anyone's entitled to make a football game but the NFL controls the brand. A monopoly is not ever applicable to a brand like the NFL due to the nature of it not being deemed a public goods or service used by the public sector (unlike say wood, gas, oxygen, gasoline, the radio or tv airwaves, etc).

The NFL, and other sports entities have been afforded anti-trust exemption status. That status could potentially be revoked in the sense that they may not be allowed to behave as one entity any longer. That is the crux of the American Needle case.

That's what I am referring to. While they are free to market their brand to whomever they choose, they may not be able to do so, unilaterally, for every team.

Now if the Supreme Court ruling is upheld, that doesn't mean that the NFL can't still do exclusive deals, if all the 32 teams collude to do so, but you made mention, in several posts, that the NFL is acting as one entity. I was just interjecting that this may not always be the case.

[khaliib]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Only1,

My counter was to MoutonDocile's response that full customization is not enough for a game to sell well without the NFL (or College) package attached to it.

I was pointing out how a game with full customization does not need an NFL/NCAA package on top of it to sell, because gamers would utilize the open editor to create an NFL/College structure with it's necessary teams.

It's not that a football game can't be made with these Exclusive Contracts, it's the notion that a game would not sell well if it doesn't come pre-packaged with the brand.

Those other games failed, not because the NFL brand was not on it, but because of the gimmicky marketing attempts versus producing the best gameplay with generic presentation and open customization.

I reference that it is the Casual Gamer that needs/want the brand name attached to it, because the Hardcore gamer will edit/customize the game into what he wants anyway if given the options.

I've always wanted to see what a 2k College football game would look/play like on Next-Gen consoles.

2k8 Football, Backbreaker and Black College Football showed that it's not about another football game being put out on the market, so this case is much deeper than what we may perceive.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

I am amazed there is a thread about this and:

1. It is still open and not locked

2. Nobody has been banned in this thread

[ryan36]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

I am amazed there is a thread about this and:

1. It is still open and not locked

2. Nobody has been banned in this thread

Good point. *starts back at page 1*

[Only1LT]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

Only1,

My counter was to MoutonDocile's response that full customization is not enough for a game to sell well without the NFL (or College) package attached to it.

I was pointing out how a game with full customization does not need an NFL/NCAA package on top of it to sell, because gamers would utilize the open editor to create an NFL/College structure with it's necessary teams.

It's not that a football game can't be made with these Exclusive Contracts, it's the notion that a game would not sell well if it doesn't come pre-packaged with the brand.

Those other games failed, not because the NFL brand was not on it, but because of the gimmicky marketing attempts versus producing the best gameplay with generic presentation and open customization.

I reference that it is the Casual Gamer that needs/want the brand name attached to it, because the Hardcore gamer will edit/customize the game into what he wants anyway if given the options.

I've always wanted to see what a 2k College football game would look/play like on Next-Gen consoles.

2k8 Football, Backbreaker and Black College Football showed that it's not about another football game being put out on the market, so this case is much deeper than what we may perceive.

So your point is that if a game, that is unlicensed, was actually very well done, that it would sell. Ok. I'll buy that theory. Here is the problem though. At this point, it's just a theory. It has never been done before, so saying that it would sell is just a guess.

Here's what we do know. Every unlicensed sports game that has tried to take on the licensed ones, has failed. Miserably! APF 2K8, which many, myself included, consider the best playing Football game ever, only sold a few 100k copies. Backbreaker was an abject failure in the sales department (how they got the green light to make another sports game is beyond me, but I guess we'll see if this Hockey game ever comes out). I'm scared to even look up what Black College did lol (who?).

You say that casuals need the license, while the hard core don't. That may be true, but unfortunately for those that are interested in making an unlicensed game, there are TONS more casuals than there are hardcore gamers.

Now, I hear what you are saying. All of the unlicensed games that have come out, and subsequently, didn't do well in sales, had more knocks against them besides the fact that they were unlicensed. I can go with you a little on that one, but until somebody, anybody, creates an unlicensed Football game that is a commercial success, I'm going to have to go with conventional wisdom and say that unlicensed sports games, especially NFL ones, will not sell, because until it happens, the burden of proof is squarely on their side.

And forgive me for not being PC, but we live in a very... stoopid society. One where name brands are almost always thought of as being better, just because they are a name brand. To overcome this mentality is not very easy, and it should not be taken lightly.

[ryan36]

Re: Judge Certifies Class-Action Football Game Pricing Lawsuit Against EA

And forgive me for not being PC, but we live in a very... stoopid society. One where name brands are almost always thought of as being better, just because they are a name brand. To overcome this mentality is not very easy, and it should not be taken lightly.

I'm not stupid. I just want to play NFL/college football with real NFL/college teams.

So do most people, that's why they edit rosters. I'm not so free on my time, that I can do it all myself. I'll take a passable m11 over a perfect apf any day.