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-   -   The Trump Presidency 2.0 (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=99477)

RainMaker 02-28-2025 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie (Post 3458741)
And to correct Rainmaker's alternate reality where we "handed Ukraine weapons without oversight" one of the problems for Ukraine is that we've actually STOPPED them from hitting targets behind the Russian Lines, because we didn't want to antagonize Russia. I'm sure you'll ignore that fact just like you ignore all the facts that might break into your alternate-world fantasies.


Literally brought this up numerous times in the past when talking about the Ukraine War. You probably couldn't support it because you had to slobber over Biden's moronic plan to fight a proxy war where you couldn't actually target the enemy's weakness. Almost like the goal wasn't to win as I've said all along.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie (Post 3458741)
(BTW, Trump just removed oversight on possible warcrimes by the Israeis using US supplied munitions.. yet another thing where the facts don't matter to you except what you WANT to believe is true in your feverish punch drunk mind)


Now you care about war crimes! I wonder if someone has been saying how all of you would flip on this the minute Trump took office. Predictable as always.

RainMaker 02-28-2025 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93 (Post 3458743)
I'm not demanding anything. I'm simply stating if they want to have a country it's time to fight. If they don't want a country then fine, surrender. If they aren't serious about the war I'm not really sure why we should be.


Who is "they"? Zelensky has full control as they don't have elections in Ukraine anymore. The people they are dragging off the street to fight are the one's who don't want to fight. Anyone who wanted to fight is either on the front lines or dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93 (Post 3458743)
I 100% agree. At what point did I say American boots hit the ground? I said Europe needs to step up if they want something done here. There should be European boots on the ground if they are serious about halting Russia. If Russia was invading my state I assure you I would be out there with a rifle. They aren't invading my country or state.


So if this is Europe's problem and we shouldn't have troops involved, why the need for hundreds of billions from us? Shouldn't Europe be the one footing the bill? You can't say he's the next Hitler while simultaneously say it's not worth sending American troops. It's one or the other.

RainMaker 02-28-2025 06:19 PM

You guys have to know when to fold a losing hand. Biden's foreign policy was an utter disaster. You have to accept that you were wrong on it and move on if you ever want to win another election. There's no use defending the guy any longer.

BYU 14 02-28-2025 06:26 PM

Biden was severely lacking/milquetoast in foreign policy for sure, but I think you hit it on the head in another post. This is Trump holding a grudge against him from his first term and throwing a fit.

Beyond that is there a bigger cuck in the senate than Lindsey Graham, after praising the great meeting he and other Senators had prior to the White House visit, he couldn't drop to his knees quick enough for Trump, bashing Zelensky after the White House debacle.

bhlloy 02-28-2025 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93 (Post 3458728)
I believe that if you let Russia keep doing this and getting away with it that they aren't going to stop and the money sink will never end. What happens when they go for the Baltics or Poland? We would be fully mobilized. We are at a point in Ukraine, maybe a couple of years ago more than now, where a little to big nudge would push Russia back to Moscow fairly quickly. Once that happens they will be the ones making a favorable deal.

NATO either fights this war or they are going to be forced to fight another one. And then another one.


The answer from today is that if it happens under the current or a future Republican administration, nothing will happen. The thought that Trump plays this any differently if it’s one of the Baltics or Finland is absurd, treaties be damned.

If I was Zelensky I’d be in Beijing Monday. A Russia who is friends with the U.S. and has unchecked influence in their sphere of influence is no friend of China. And I wouldn’t be surprised if every single country in the EU wasn’t far behind them. The U.S. probably has undone 75 years of diplomacy in a few weeks.

Atocep 02-28-2025 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy (Post 3458748)
The answer from today is that if it happens under the current or a future Republican administration, nothing will happen. The thought that Trump plays this any differently if it’s one of the Baltics or Finland is absurd, treaties be damned.

If I was Zelensky I’d be in Beijing Monday. A Russia who is friends with the U.S. and has unchecked influence in their sphere of influence is no friend of China. And I wouldn’t be surprised if every single country in the EU wasn’t far behind them. The U.S. probably has undone 75 years of diplomacy in a few weeks.


We're so far away from the last global conflict we have generations of people that don't understand or respect the importance of having strong allies in Europe and maintaining a foothold there. These people think we can sit in the US, ignore the rest of the world, and everything will be fine. They don't consider the fact that we've gone this long without a global conflict because of these things. By no means have we been perfect, but the answer to that isn't to just ignore the rest of the world entirely.

Right now we're the world's laughing stock. Europe sees us a joke. Canada sees us as a joke. Russia is mocking us on state TV. China is taking full advantage of the Trump admin to expand their reach and countries reliant on their technology. We have foreign leaders fact checking Trump to his face now. The rest of the world is ready to move on from the US being the leaders of the free world.

RainMaker 02-28-2025 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 3458747)
Beyond that is there a bigger cuck in the senate than Lindsey Graham, after praising the great meeting he and other Senators had prior to the White House visit, he couldn't drop to his knees quick enough for Trump, bashing Zelensky after the White House debacle.


It will be tough to ever top Cruz. Trump called his wife ugly and he was phone banking for the man a couple weeks later. Although I guess Vance having to defend all the people who call his wife and kids subhuman is up there too.

These next 4 years are going to be a hilarious display of grown men debasing themselves.

Atocep 02-28-2025 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3458750)
It will be tough to ever top Cruz. Trump called his wife ugly and he was phone banking for the man a couple weeks later. Although I guess Vance having to defend all the people who call his wife and kids subhuman is up there too.

These next 4 years are going to be a hilarious display of grown men debasing themselves.


Little Marco sitting on the couch pouting while all of his work went up in flames was something to watch.

If there's any question as to who this administration considers an ally, Hegseth ordered Cyber Command to stand down on Russia.

Carman Bulldog 02-28-2025 07:16 PM

How does a Russian state owned media organization gain access to the Oval Office while Reuters and the AP are both banned?

SirFozzie 02-28-2025 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog (Post 3458752)
How does a Russian state owned media organization gain access to the Oval Office while Reuters and the AP are both banned?


you know how.

RainMaker 02-28-2025 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy (Post 3458748)
If I was Zelensky I’d be in Beijing Monday. A Russia who is friends with the U.S. and has unchecked influence in their sphere of influence is no friend of China. And I wouldn’t be surprised if every single country in the EU wasn’t far behind them. The U.S. probably has undone 75 years of diplomacy in a few weeks.


China and Russia already teamed up during this. It was why the whole tihng ended up being such a disaster from Biden. China didn't want to be the next country getting sanctioned like that. It just made everyone else stronger.

sovereignstar v2 02-28-2025 08:48 PM

Anyone know if the price of rapists or tax evaders has dropped since Florida started importing them this week?

bhlloy 02-28-2025 08:48 PM

I understand that. You don’t think a world in which the U.S. president is at best not opposed to and at worst aligned with Russia’s world view and gives them a free rein in their back yard changes everything?

BRICS and any military cooperation between them is a reaction by countries that are being frozen out and to work against the influence of NATO and the West led by the U.S. When the U.S. no longer wants to lead that effort and even actively works against it, everything changes. Russia and China are not natural friends and allies without that holding them together.

RainMaker 02-28-2025 08:54 PM

What is their worldview?

JPhillips 02-28-2025 08:56 PM

I guarantee Zelensky will be more popular in Ukraine after this. The idea that he's loathed by the populace is simply incorrect.

Carman Bulldog 02-28-2025 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3458765)
I guarantee Zelensky will be more popular in Ukraine after this. The idea that he's loathed by the populace is simply incorrect.

I would say he comes out of this looking pretty sympathetic to all but seemingly two countries.

RainMaker 02-28-2025 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3458688)
Y'know, thinking about it just a little more ... did nobody tell Z-man that there was a new sheriff in town? Specifically one that wasn't senile and wasn't looking to launder money.


Lets not get carried away. These pussies would never talk to Netanyahu like that. They'd eat dog food from the can if Miriam Adelson told them to.

Carman Bulldog 02-28-2025 11:10 PM

And Zelensky coming off as even more of a class act on the Fox News interview.

Danny 02-28-2025 11:43 PM

I check the fox news website sometimes to see what is heing said. Today was the first day since he was elected the website wasnt slurping his manhood with every headline. Still not critical of him but not on their knees bad.

Fidatelo 03-01-2025 12:40 AM

Some thoughts:
- Regardless of whether you feel Zelensky should or should not have accepted Trump's deal, the manner in which Trump and Vance treated him was deplorable.
- Trump chastised Zelensky for not being ready for peace, even going so far as to accuse him of gambling with WWIII, while himself having recently threatened to invade Greenland and Panama, annex Canada, and perform military operations in Mexico. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.
- Everything Trump has done in the past month with respect to foreign relations has questionable benefits for America but clear benefits for Putin. Curious.
- Anyone who can't see that an alliance has been made between Russia and the US with the ultimate goal to carve up their respective spheres of influence is actively trying not to see it.
- If your country is teamed up with the likes of Russia and North Korea, you might need to start asking the "Are we the baddies?" question.

Icy 03-01-2025 10:51 AM

I don't know what is Trump plan but from an outsider it makes no sense he is doing this in US interest but on his own.

With his last month foreign politics, what he is accomplishing is that EU is starting to wake up (about time we do) and realize that US is no longer the world protector and that we need to step up and to reinforce our own defensive power.

It might mean for example closing down the US bases in Europe as there is no longer any mutual interest on these bases and for example the ones in my country Spain served well during the Gulf war or even to support Israel due to proximity. Maybe that is why Trump is searching for friends in North Africa as an alternative like Morocco because just isolating behind the Atlantic in today's times were wars are not about land troops anymore is kind of naive.

Also maybe forcing EU to get stronger in the military side can help to boost the US war industry as of course we would need to buy a lot from there but... that is short term strategy that might make sense only if the goal is to earn money now at the cost of being less relevant in the world politics.

The bad side about it, is that EU is stating to look at China instead... so maybe they are the ones who will benefit from this becoming more relevant in the EU politics vs US.

And regarding Zelensky... Trump just also gave him a breather and he is going to recover now all the sympathies he was losing so again I think Trump is going to get the opposite that he was looking for.

To be honest we are puzzled at US becoming the best Russia ally after all the cold war, the sacrifices made by US citizens during these times and money expended by US to now just give up and hug the enemy while he is holding the knife to backstab you at the right time.

Putin's Russia was collapsing, embarrassed at the war that was supposed to last a few weeks and that they couldn't win, with the Ukranians even taking part of their land, with noise about internal revolutions like when part of their own army marched towards Moscu, and just needed the last kick in the ass and instead Trump is giving them the wings to fly again.

My feeling is that this is just about personal interest of a few rich guys in US and Russia, with some muppets ass lickers from the extreme right in UE who are starting to look stupid now like Santiago Abascal, leader of the extreme right in Spain who is looking more and more ridiculous supporting the leader who is abandoning us now. At least the French right leader was not supporting it and left the event, I'm disappointed at Meloni as she looked to have more personality than she is showing regarding his relationship with Trump.

And btw, before somebody think I'm a leftist, for sure I'm far from it and in fact the opposite at least in terms of economics and if I was an US citizen I would vote for the republicans... before this Trump 2.0. This is just a reflexion of my feelings and these of the people surrounding me, mainly entrepreneurs fully embracing capitalism, but that can't understand how the most powerful country in the world, that we admire on many things is being driven by a guy who is only looking for his own interest to the point of giving up his whole country and allies to the enemy while his own people is being fooled by his demagogic speech (and this is without even talking about the Musk show).

Again I'm just an outsider and I think this is my first time ever participating in a politics thread in FOFC but I'm really shocked about Trump giving a hand to Putin instead of the last kick to make him fall down.

BYU 14 03-01-2025 11:38 AM

I would say that is a fine first time foray into a political thread here

BYU 14 03-01-2025 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3458769)
Lets not get carried away. These pussies would never talk to Netanyahu like that. They'd eat dog food from the can if Miriam Adelson told them to.


Truth

MIJB#19 03-01-2025 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 3458705)
Zelensky isn't an ally, he's a grifter (albeit on a fairly grand scale). That played well with the previous administration.

Zelensky is just a temporary placeholder, just like Trump is.
Neither will still be in charge 4 years from now, because they live in a democracy. Yet neither acted like they remembered what their job is.

The Ukraine is an ally of NATO and consequently of the USA. The Ukraine has been used as a cushion between NATO and Putin's Russia. That isn't new, it already was the case during Trump's previous tenure. It is bizarre that Trump has turned the USA into a puppet of Putin.

Ksyrup 03-01-2025 02:40 PM

So now that Trump is waded into the Pete Rose situation, he appears to be deadset on taking on every old white guy AM talk radio ragebait issue. What's next - banning the RnR HOF from inducting rappers and hip hop artists?

JPhillips 03-01-2025 03:05 PM

The same MAGAs complaining about Zelensky's clothing don't have any problem with Elon running a cabinet meeting in a graphic tee and baseball cap.

JonInMiddleGA 03-01-2025 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIJB#19 (Post 3458793)
Zelensky is just a temporary placeholder, just like Trump is.
Neither will still be in charge 4 years from now, because they live in a democracy. Yet neither acted like they remembered what their job is.

The Ukraine is an ally of NATO and consequently of the USA. The Ukraine has been used as a cushion between NATO and Putin's Russia. That isn't new, it already was the case during Trump's previous tenure. It is bizarre that Trump has turned the USA into a puppet of Putin.


He's a grifter. And frankly I'm far from the only American that's tired of pumping cash into NATO for that matter. Unless European states end up with more rational leadership in more places, the value of NATO becomes more questionable every day. There's been some hopeful signs in that regard in recent years but it's far from guaranteed.

cuervo72 03-01-2025 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 3458804)
So now that Trump is waded into the Pete Rose situation, he appears to be deadset on taking on every old white guy AM talk radio ragebait issue. What's next - banning the RnR HOF from inducting rappers and hip hop artists?


I posted about it on FB a while ago, but I'm going to be shocked if they don't lean on MLB to stop recognizing Negro League stats.

Danny 03-01-2025 07:37 PM

Trump just signed an executive order demanding mcdonalds bring back the mcdlt.

Edward64 03-02-2025 04:49 AM

I like having UK and France jumping in the middle to try smooth things over. I'm not convinced it'll work but gotta keep talking.

Russia-Ukraine war: UK, France and Ukraine agree to work on ceasefire plan | AP News
Quote:

Britain, France and Ukraine have agreed to work on a ceasefire plan to present to the United States, British Prime Minister Keir Starmer said Sunday as he prepared to host a summit of European leaders to discuss ending the war.
:
But Starmer said he’s focused on being a bridge to restore peace talks and he used the collapse of those talks as an opportunity to re-engage with Trump and Zelenskyy and French President Emmanuel Macron rather than “ramp up the rhetoric.”
Didn't realize there was $207B worth of Russian assets. I wonder what is the current net $ (e.g. Russia seized assets - EU assets that could be seized)

Quote:

Ukraine can no longer count on military or political support from the U.S. after Trump declared himself neutral in negotiations, Ellehuus said. She said Europe needs to step in and could release some 200 billion euros ($207 billion) in seized Russian assets to help fund that effort.

Even if Ukraine has the $ to spend, will US sell weapons to Ukraine directly? I'm sure US will sell weapons to UK and France, but will US put stipulations on those weapon sales? Or in other words, does NATOexUS have enough domestic weapons production for Ukraine?

flere-imsaho 03-02-2025 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 3458791)
I would say that is a fine first time foray into a political thread here


Hard disagree. Icy's got to learn that you're supposed to thrown around some ad hominem attacks, make some unsupported assertions, and cling to arguments that others have comperhensively dismantled for long after it starts looking bad. This thoughtful and reasoned posting schtick is going to get him nowhere.

j/k Icy, loved the post. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 3458813)
Trump just signed an executive order demanding mcdonalds bring back the mcdlt.


I could absolutely believe that this is true.

GrantDawg 03-02-2025 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 3458813)
Trump just signed an executive order demanding mcdonalds bring back the mcdlt.

I fully support this initiative. That might actually bring me back to McDonald's, except they would probably charge $18 dollars for it or some such nonsense.

Danny 03-02-2025 01:37 PM

Oh yeah bringing it back would be good. Its more the absurdity that its believable. Trump is an old rich white guy shouting at the clouds, except his rants are turned into executive orders.

bronconick 03-02-2025 01:41 PM

I expected he'd want the McRib first

Atocep 03-02-2025 01:44 PM

The fact that he likes the fish fillet should be disqualifying.

RainMaker 03-02-2025 02:18 PM

Bitcoin up 10% on news of a crypto bailout

Atocep 03-02-2025 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3458856)
Bitcoin up 10% on news of a crypto bailout


Seems kind of knee jerk since the crypto reserve isn't prioritizing bitcoin but rather spreading assets across several cyptos. A lot of bitcoin owners seem pissed. They're bashing Trump for investing in "shitcoins".

sovereignstar v2 03-02-2025 02:29 PM

Just put my life savings into Caitlyn Jenner coin. Let's go

JPhillips 03-02-2025 04:09 PM

Commerce Sec. Lutnick saying hemay remove government spending from GDP to try to juice the Feb numbers.

Atocep 03-02-2025 04:22 PM

I'm old enough to remember when all of the Biden administration's numbers were fake.

RainMaker 03-02-2025 04:25 PM

Lutnick is a funny character. Cantor supposedly has guaranteed that Tether is backed by actual USD but no one with functioning brain cells believes it. So we are all trying to see how he works a bailout for his crypto friends from the scam he ran.

Also fun fact is when he got the 9/11 settlement for the families lost at Cantor, he pocketed a huge chunk for himself.

RainMaker 03-02-2025 04:26 PM

Also glad we are doing something about erroneous spending by dumping billions of tax dollars into imaginary internet coins

SirFozzie 03-02-2025 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3458867)
Also glad we are doing something about erroneous spending by dumping billions of tax dollars into imaginary internet coins


See, this and the Adelson thing we agree on. Who says we can't find common ground ;)

SirFozzie 03-02-2025 05:12 PM

and dola: I fully expect RFK Jr to come out against this, as the anti-vaccine crowd will somehow complain that vaccinating chickens against Bird Flu is putting liberal mind control into ARE EGGS!"

The US May Start Vaccinating Chickens Against Bird Flu | WIRED

JPhillips 03-02-2025 05:24 PM

Someone made a bet on Bitcoin and Ethereum with 50X leverage just before Trump's announcement. Rather than getting wiped out, they made hundreds of millions.

Atocep 03-02-2025 06:12 PM

Elon cut 18F, which is a group that's been working to improve government systems and make them more efficient. The biggest contribution they've made is the creation of Login.gov, which is a single sign on service across multiple government agencies and systems that allows you to login securely without a CAC. I use it to log into the VA, Genesis (medical records), and other systems I use. They've been involved in hundreds of projects across the federal government over the past few years.

JPhillips 03-02-2025 06:25 PM

One of my wife's high school friends, Matt Cutts, was in at the beginning of 18F and the Digital Services.

RainMaker 03-02-2025 06:36 PM

Did he used to work at Google? If so, I know him.

JPhillips 03-02-2025 06:50 PM

Yes. He is the same age as my wife and his father was a professor with my father-in-law.

RainMaker 03-02-2025 07:04 PM

Small world. I worked with him on spam filtering back in the day when he was at Google. Smart guy.

JPhillips 03-02-2025 07:11 PM

They aren't close now, but they were in the smart kids group when they were in HS in Eastern Kentucky. Their fathers were both physics profs and they still get together regularly.

Atocep 03-02-2025 07:21 PM

The EU is getting together without the US to commit to aid for Ukraine in order to put them in a position of strength for negotiations with Russia. The UK is committed to boots on the ground as part of a peacekeeping force in the event that a ceasefire is agreed to.

Trump is reportedly pissed that the EU has stepped up to circumvent the negotiations he had done so far and is complaining that this was supposed to be his Nobel Peace Prize (not joking).

He's not going to be able to pull us out of NATO but the damage that's going to be done to our standing on the world stage is going to take a generation or more to repair. Europe pulling off a ceasefire negotiation and leading the way with a peacekeeping opertation is Stage 1 of the US no longer being the leader of the free world.

RainMaker 03-02-2025 07:21 PM

He's absolutely loaded now since he was there pre-IPO. 18F was probably a passion project. Kind of insane because that's one group that actually did a ton of good on very little budget. Guessing they'll be begging to hire them back in a week.

The dichotomy between the US and China is striking. U.S firing people with actual skill for some script kiddies out of Peter Thiel's harem. Meanwhile China has their brightest minds working on shit. No wonder they've surpassed the United States in most technology.

Atocep 03-02-2025 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3458878)
He's absolutely loaded now since he was there pre-IPO. 18F was probably a passion project. Kind of insane because that's one group that actually did a ton of good on very little budget. Guessing they'll be begging to hire them back in a week.

The dichotomy between the US and China is striking. U.S firing people with actual skill for some script kiddies out of Peter Thiel's harem. Meanwhile China has their brightest minds working on shit. No wonder they've surpassed the United States in most technology.


Mark Cuban said as much and advised 18F to create a consulting firm and wait for the government to come begging for them to come back.

JPhillips 03-02-2025 07:24 PM

I think he bailed during the first Trump admin. My wife said he's in Quebec now.

SirFozzie 03-02-2025 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3458875)
Small world. I worked with him on spam filtering back in the day when he was at Google. Smart guy.


Just for the record, thank you for your service (remembering the days posting on Usenet's NANAE (which stands for news.admin.net-abuse.email). Thankfully, the days of open mail servers filling everyone's inbox with levels of garbage is over now that filtering is good.. I remember one prolific spammer claiming the Lumber Cartel was behind this because email advertising was so profitable no one would cut down trees anymore)

Lathum 03-02-2025 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3458877)

He's not going to be able to pull us out of NATO but the damage that's going to be done to our standing on the world stage is going to take a generation or more to repair. Europe pulling off a ceasefire negotiation and leading the way with a peacekeeping opertation is Stage 1 of the US no longer being the leader of the free world.


Given 33 million people didn't vote and those that did elected Trump despite knowing who and what he is, maybe we don't deserve to be leader of the free world.

Atocep 03-02-2025 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3458882)
Given 33 million people didn't vote and those that did elected Trump despite knowing who and what he is, maybe we don't deserve to be leader of the free world.


We're not. Macron sat with Trump and fact checked him to his face in front of reporters. The rest of the world is starting to realize that Trump is weak and they're willing to call him on this shit. They've effectively said, "the peace deal you were negotiating is shit, we're taking over from here". There's absolutely no way to spin that as anything other than a weak president that isn't respected by our traditional allies.

People have argued for years for a stronger Europe and that they need to step up. That's happening, but it's going to be entirely at the US's expense.

Look at it this way, the only time in NATO history that Article 5 has been invoked was in the wake of 9/11. If there was an escalation between Europe and Russia right now, is anyone confident in saying which side we'd be on?

Lathum 03-02-2025 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3458883)


Look at it this way, the only time in NATO history that Article 5 has been invoked was in the wake of 9/11. If there was an escalation between Europe and Russia right now, is anyone confident in saying which side we'd be on?


I'm confident Trump would be on Russias side. There was a time I would have said that is a bridge too far for the congress but that time has passed.

Edward64 03-03-2025 05:09 AM

Nice pic.

I really hope they can come up with a ceasefire/peace plan that is palatable with Russia & Ukraine. And I really hope they have the political will to take the steps to defend themselves without assuming the US will help.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/03/euro...se-fiasco.html
Quote:

European leaders pose for a family photograph at Lancaster House during the European leaders’ summit on March 2, 2025 in London, England.

Yeah, good odds the current NATO is going away. IMO not a bad thing, it's a relic from the Cold War. EU should create an EU centric replacement and/or totally reorg NATO where the US is not the primary protector.

dubb93 03-03-2025 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458887)


Yeah, good odds the current NATO is going away. IMO not a bad thing


I'm not real sure how losing all of our military allies makes us any safer, but if you say it's a good thing more power to you I guess.

JPhillips 03-03-2025 06:31 AM

Is there a single historical example of a nation choosing fewer allies, less trade, and less immigration and coming out more powerful and prosperous?

GrantDawg 03-03-2025 06:33 AM

So if we are leaving NATO, we can massively reduce our military budget right? I mean I keep seeing that these countries have free healthcare because we pay for their defense, so if we stop paying for their defense, then we get free healthcare. That's how it works, right?

Lathum 03-03-2025 06:34 AM

Honest question. Is there anything he or his cabinet can do that would result in enough of the GOP waking up and putting an end to this? He is so obviously unfit for office.

Edward64 03-03-2025 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3458891)
So if we are leaving NATO, we can massively reduce our military budget right?


I looked to see how much US spend on NATO. I've seen wide ranges (based on different assumptions) and don't know the true number but below article talks about the intricacies of that calculation. Take it FWIW

NATO and the Claim the U.S. Bears 70% of the Burden: A False and Dysfunctional Approach to Burdensharing
Quote:

An admittedly rough estimate by the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) has far more credibility.[1] It only attempts to estimate the cost of U.S. forces in Europe and estimates that, "direct US expenses on defense in Europe (in current dollars) are estimated to range between US $30.7bn in 2017 and US $36.0bn in 2018,
Quote:

As the IISS points out, however, simply costing the U.S. forces in Europe does not include the cost of any forces in the U.S. that are effectively dedicated – or earmarked or assigned to reinforcing NATO in a credible emergency or warfighting case. If one somewhat arbitrarily assumes that the total cost would be some three times higher than the cost of U.S. forces actually in Europe, a round number of $100 billion might be as good a guess as any.

But yeah, even if we remove significant amount of troops, assets etc. from NATO, and save (hypothetically) $50B a year, fair chance the $50B will go somewhere else pretty quick vs reducing the deficit.

Edward64 03-03-2025 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93 (Post 3458889)
I'm not real sure how losing all of our military allies makes us any safer, but if you say it's a good thing more power to you I guess.


Trump 1.0 pissed off our European military allies and they're still around 4-8 years later. Yeah, they'll get even more pissed off in 2.0 and they'll become less reliant on us, but that's a good thing.

IMO I'd rather we focus against more recent & existential threats like China. Take the (hypothetical) $50B from NATO and use that money for Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, India etc. I'd toss in UK also since they are a NATO country invested in AUKUS.

JPhillips 03-03-2025 07:45 AM

No free healthcare, but if you own the right shit coins you can make a fortune.

Lathum 03-03-2025 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458895)
Trump 1.0 pissed off our European military allies and they're still around 4-8 years later. Yeah, they'll get even more pissed off in 2.0 and they'll become less reliant on us, but that's a good thing.

IMO I'd rather we focus against more recent & existential threats like China. Take the (hypothetical) $50B from NATO and use that money for Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, India etc. I'd toss in UK also since they are a NATO country invested in AUKUS.


Our allies in Europe got past the first Trump presidency because like most of us, we considered it an anomaly, especially after 1/6. By putting him back in power we are telegraphing to our allies we as a voting public can not be trusted. The damage done will take a generation to repair, if ever.

As for threats like China, we are already screwing that up also. By pulling aid from developing nations we are giving China the perfect opportunity to sweep in and play the long game, something Trump is incapable of grasping because frankly he does not care about the long term health of the nation.

China won the day Trump was elected. They were already winning, this was just the knock out punch. We will never recover from the lead they are going to take in the next 4 years with global relations, AI development, medical research, EVs, etc...

Edward64 03-03-2025 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3458897)
Our allies in Europe got past the first Trump presidency because like most of us, we considered it an anomaly, especially after 1/6. By putting him back in power we are telegraphing to our allies we as a voting public can not be trusted. The damage done will take a generation to repair, if ever.

Western Europe will wait out Trump 2.0. Not saying that things will return back to how it was with Biden but our friendship, frayed as it may be, will resume after Trump.

Yes, unlike some here, I do believe there will be fair elections in 2028 and he won't be able to run for a 3rd term.

Quote:

As for threats like China, we are already screwing that up also ...

China won the day Trump was elected. They were already winning, this was just the knock out punch.
We were definitely screwing it up prior to Trump 1.0. It was Trump that started to confront China and decouple us from China. Joe to his credit did great work with AUKUS and further strengthened alliances in that region.

I'll concede that Trump 2.0 may screw Taiwan and the AUKUS alliances, but right now, there is little evidence of it e.g. Trump increased tariffs against China (in addition to the ones he put in for 1.0) and that indicates he is just as confrontational as before

Quote:

We will never recover from the lead they are going to take in the next 4 years with global relations, AI development, medical research, EVs, etc...
We can blame Trump for many things but he does not own the majority of this. The groundwork for China's emergence was due to WTO, globalization, decades of Dem & GOP administrations complacency etc. put us where we are today.

Edward64 03-03-2025 08:16 AM

Quote:

By pulling aid from developing nations we are giving China the perfect opportunity to sweep in and play the long game,

I assume this is related to Trump greatly restricting USAID.

China isn't giving USAID-type assistance to countries. They are doing big investment projects like airports, roads, ports etc. and they expect a return on their investment. So no, I doubt China will swoop in and do these "good will" stuff.

Arguably, what China is doing with their "silk road initiative" provides a better return on investment than USAID. On the pro side, what they do have the opportunity to help a country economically and therefore, their people on a grander scale. On the con side, the country becomes indebted to China and sometimes the projects are a failure.

This is their long game. Invest in countries with big projects; create relationships with (or bribe) the countries' leaders; expect a return; indebt those countries; ultimately they become more aligned with China's interest than the US.

Passacaglia 03-03-2025 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3458892)
Honest question. Is there anything he or his cabinet can do that would result in enough of the GOP waking up and putting an end to this? He is so obviously unfit for office.


No. Too much of the platform is focused on "winning" with no regard for what is actually being "won".

Atocep 03-03-2025 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458895)
Trump 1.0 pissed off our European military allies and they're still around 4-8 years later. Yeah, they'll get even more pissed off in 2.0 and they'll become less reliant on us, but that's a good thing.

IMO I'd rather we focus against more recent & existential threats like China. Take the (hypothetical) $50B from NATO and use that money for Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, India etc. I'd toss in UK also since they are a NATO country invested in AUKUS.


You realize leaving NATO would likely mean closing our military installations in those countries, which is the biggest military advantage we have over every other country in the world. Specifically China.

Atocep 03-03-2025 11:17 AM

538 looked at Trump's approval on the top 14 issues plus a blanket "other" for everything else. The only things he's polling above water on are: LGBTQ, energy, ebvironment, and immigration. LGBTQ is the only one above water by more than 5 points. He's under water on everything else.

Edward64 03-03-2025 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3458903)
You realize leaving NATO would likely mean closing our military installations in those countries, which is the biggest military advantage we have over every other country in the world. Specifically China.


Thanks for letting me set the record straight. I know it was implied above by someone else that I wanted NATO to be gone. My actual quote said ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458887)
Yeah, good odds the current NATO is going away. IMO not a bad thing, it's a relic from the Cold War. EU should create an EU centric replacement and/or totally reorg NATO where the US is not the primary protector.

  • Specifically, "on NATO being the biggest advantage, specifically China" can you elaborate? How do you see a NATO, a defensive, European based alliance as the biggest advantage over China?

Arguably, the EU organization and its' economic policy, if in coordination with US economic policy could be a significant advantage over China. And, I definitely get UK because they are part of AUKUS but I don't get NATO per se.

Atocep 03-03-2025 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458907)
Thanks for letting me set the record straight. I know it was implied above by someone else that I wanted NATO to be gone. My actual quote said ...


  • Specifically, "on NATO being the biggest advantage, specifically China" can you elaborate? How do you see a NATO, a defensive, European based alliance as the biggest advantage over China?

Arguably, the EU organization and its' economic policy, if in coordination with US economic policy could be a significant advantage over China. And, I definitely get UK because they are part of AUKUS but I don't get NATO per se.


Our footprint in NATO countries gives launching points to quickly respond to anything, anywhere in the world. We have our own military airports in these countries, our own military hospitals in these countries. From a logistics and readiness standpoint that's and advantage no one else in the world has. We also conduct Intel and collection from some of these installations. It's highly unlikely that any conflict with China would be on their soil. Somewhere in eastern or western Europe is much, much more likely. We need that reach or responding to any conflict gets far more difficult.

If we lose these installations where are we sending casualties? Landstul is where we send a large number of our casualties, whether it's Europe, the middle east, wherever. Are we OK with the additional hurdles to getting supplies to our troops? Are we ok not having bases in Europe to stage troops and act as a launching point? How are we refueling our aircraft carriers and other other ships or planes without NATO support?

We get far more from NATO than we put into it. The idea that everything has to be transactional and must give us a direct return on investment or produce a profit is flawed thinking.

JPhillips 03-03-2025 11:45 AM

Has any country so aggressively hurled themselves into a recession?


Atocep 03-03-2025 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3458909)
Has any country so aggressively hurled themselves into a recession?



They were open about this too. They were saying sacrifices were going go have to be made and it would be really rough for a couple years.

It's goes back to these billionaires telling people they have to make sacrifices while creating tax breaks for themselves.

Edward64 03-03-2025 12:05 PM

Thanks for elaborating. I better understand your rationale. My comments below ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3458908)
Our footprint in NATO countries gives launching points to quickly respond to anything, anywhere in the world. We have our own military airports in these countries, our own military hospitals in these countries. From a logistics and readiness standpoint that's and advantage no one else in the world has. We also conduct Intel and collection from some of these installations. It's highly unlikely that any conflict with China would be on their soil. Somewhere in eastern or western Europe is much, much more likely. We need that reach or responding to any conflict gets far more difficult.

If there is a shooting conflict, it is highly likely it'll happen in Asia and not eastern/western Europe. The threat to Europe is Russia, not China.

What tension has China caused in Europe? In Asia, we have Taiwan; building artificial islands and contesting the Spratley islands which is pissing off everyone; conducting aggressive naval drills near Australia & Vietnam; border conflict with India etc.

Joe championed AUKUS which is primarily with UK and Australia. For all practical purposes, Japan & Philippines are also part of AUKUS or like affiliate members. South Korea, for obvious reasons won't officially be in AUKUS. Joe negotiated and is reopening Subic Bay & Clark Air Force bases in Philippines etc. See below article for how Joe has built up our presence in Asia.

U.S. builds web of arms, ships and bases in the Pacific to deter China - The Japan Times

Quote:

If we lose these installations where are we sending casualties? Landstul is where we send a large number of our casualties, whether it's Europe, the middle east, wherever. Are we OK with the additional hurdles to getting supplies to our troops? Are we ok not having bases in Europe to stage troops and act as a launching point? How are we refueling our aircraft carriers and other other ships or planes without NATO support?
My position is, because the China military threat is much more likely in Asia and not Europe, that we should spend the (hypothetical $50B) in Asia and further build up the infrastructure you state above, and provide more training, arms etc. to our allies in Asia.

Atocep 03-03-2025 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458911)
Thanks for elaborating. I better understand your rationale. My comments below ...


If there is a shooting conflict, it is highly likely it'll happen in Asia and not eastern/western Europe. The threat to Europe is Russia, not China.

What tension has China caused in Europe? In Asia, we have Taiwan; building artificial islands and contesting the Spratley islands which is pissing off everyone; conducting aggressive naval drills near Australia & Vietnam; border conflict with India etc.

Joe championed AUKUS which is primarily with UK and Australia. For all practical purposes, Japan & Philippines are also part of AUKUS or like affiliate members. South Korea, for obvious reasons won't officially be in AUKUS. Joe negotiated and is reopening Subic Bay & Clark Air Force bases in Philippines etc. See below article for how Joe has built up our presence in Asia.

U.S. builds web of arms, ships and bases in the Pacific to deter China - The Japan Times


My position is, because the China military threat is much more likely in Asia and not Europe, that we should spend the (hypothetical $50B) in Asia and further build up the infrastructure you state above, and provide more training, arms etc. to our allies in Asia.


$50 billion isn't getting us anywhere close to replacing that we already have. I'm very skeptical that any conflict with China would be in Asia. Eastern/Western Europe or possibly Africa are far more likely. If it's Asia then the forces and infrastructure in NATO countries would still be vital to any response. The Asian countries that we have a foothold in generally aren't large enough to support what we need or replace what we have in NATO countries.

Improving our foothold in Asia isn't necessarily a bad thing but shouldn't be an either/or thing with NATO. Giving up what we have to respond to a current threat is shortsighted. Are you confident projecting who our biggest threat is going to be 10 years from now let alone 50 or 75?

Edward64 03-03-2025 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3458912)
$50 billion isn't getting us anywhere close to replacing that we already have. I'm very skeptical that any conflict with China would be in Asia. Eastern/Western Europe or possibly Africa are far more likely.

This is the crux as to why you and I differ. I don't know how to convince you that China is much more interested in Asia militarily than Europe so we'll agree to disagree here.

Quote:

Giving up what we have to respond to a current threat is shortsighted. Are you confident projecting who our biggest threat is going to be 10 years from now let alone 50 or 75?
As I've stated, I'm okay with NATO 2.0 just as long as US is not the primary driver.

I do agree that Russia is a threat, but unlike Asia, NATOexUS should be able to handle Russia with US playing a supporting role. Between Russia and China, IMO China is the greater threat. Russia is declining, China is emerging and therefore more likely to have conflicts with US interests.

Atocep 03-03-2025 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3458913)
This is the crux as to why you and I differ. I don't know how to convince you that China is much more interested in Asia militarily than Europe so we'll agree to disagree here.


China doesn't want conflict in Asia because it's too close to home. That's not how superpowers fight wars. Direct conflict between the US and China is more likely to be part of a larger conflict where each of us is supporting allies elsewhere in the world. Whether that's Russia starting something where both of us jump into it or it's in emerging countries in Africa, I don't see it being Asia. Far too much risk there.

Even direct conflict is highly unlikely. More likely it's a proxy war between other countries we're supporting, similar to Ukraine now but with more direct support through training etc.

Strategically, giving up NATO would be shortsighted and a self own that we wouldn't recover from.

RainMaker 03-03-2025 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3458897)
China won the day Trump was elected.


They've been winning for quite some time. If it wasn't for centuries of sinophobia, they'd probably be the global leader. They're better than the United States in just about everything at this point and don't waste their brightest minds making obscure financial products used to scam people.

If I was Europe, I'd make the switch. Better EV cars, better phones, and they won't drag you into a global conflict every few years to appease some defense contractors.

Lathum 03-03-2025 01:57 PM

I literally said they have been winning for some time and this was the KO. Creative edit of my quote.

RainMaker 03-03-2025 02:39 PM

I agree with you. I just think this has been trending this way for a long time. Outside of weapons and weird financial products, this country doesn't exactly make much worthwhile anymore.

RainMaker 03-03-2025 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3458909)
Has any country so aggressively hurled themselves into a recession?





B-b-b-b-but Gulf of America!

JPhillips 03-03-2025 03:34 PM

Nobody can decipher whether or not Trump is saying that agricultural exports will be tariffed beginning in April.

JPhillips 03-03-2025 03:40 PM

dola

Time to start hoarding weather forecasts I guess.

Quote:

The Trump administration has informed NOAA that two pivotal centers for weather forecasting will soon have their leases canceled, sources told Axios.

Why it matters: One of the buildings is the nerve center for generating national weather forecasts.

It was designed to integrate multiple forecasting centers in one building to improve operating efficiency. It houses telecommunications equipment to send weather data and forecasts across the U.S. and abroad.

RainMaker 03-03-2025 05:04 PM

Almost -3% GDP in just 6 weeks is some remarkable work.

BYU 14 03-03-2025 05:07 PM

Not as remarkable as taking stock gains from 16.2% and 11.65% for me in 2023 and 2024 down to 3.2% year to date and probably be in the break even range after todays bloodbath.

flere-imsaho 03-03-2025 05:25 PM

Orange motherfucker is single-handedly delaying my retirement.

cuervo72 03-03-2025 05:32 PM

Interesting that nightly there seem to be pro-Trump commercials…don’t recall those during Biden’s first year (for a president planning to run again).

Atocep 03-03-2025 05:40 PM

It's rather concerning when a former Trump commissioner and a guy that isn't a big fan of the department of education is sounding alarm bells for what the Trump administration is doing to education data.

Former Trump commissioner blasts DOGE education data cuts

RainMaker 03-03-2025 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 3458927)
Not as remarkable as taking stock gains from 16.2% and 11.65% for me in 2023 and 2024 down to 3.2% year to date and probably be in the break even range after todays bloodbath.


I don't think they've even fully priced in tariffs either. They still think he's bluffing.

Ksyrup 03-03-2025 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72 (Post 3458931)
Interesting that nightly there seem to be pro-Trump commercials…don’t recall those during Biden’s first year (for a president planning to run again).


Yeah, I've seen the Kristi Noem one multiple times. Ridiculous, just kissing Trump's ass like an election year commercial.

Fidatelo 03-03-2025 06:50 PM

Tariffs hit 'allies' tomorrow. Sanctions being lifted on Russia. Aid ending to Ukraine. America is all-in on the Russia alliance.

JPhillips 03-03-2025 06:51 PM

Fucking disgraceful.

RainMaker 03-03-2025 09:05 PM

More welfare.


Atocep 03-03-2025 09:49 PM

The DOJ announced they're reviewing the conviction of Tina Peters, who was found guilty of tampering with voting machines in a state case in Colorado.

JPhillips 03-03-2025 09:54 PM

Trump says he's going to eliminate the cap gains on crypto sales. That's not how things used to work, but I doubt the GOP in Congress say no and the IRS will just stop collecting.

Edward64 03-04-2025 05:59 AM

T-11

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/04/nego...s-persist.html
Quote:

Congress is careening toward a government shutdown in just 11 days as the discord between the two parties over funding talks grows, with no clear path to reach a deal.

The government is set to run out of money at the end of next Friday, March 14. Republicans control the House and the Senate, but they need Democratic support to pass a funding bill as it is subject to the Senate’s 60-vote threshold.
Quote:

Hopes of a full funding deal have faded, so President Donald Trump and congressional leaders are falling back on a short-term bill to keep the government open on autopilot, most likely through the end of the fiscal year. But even that is running into obstacles.

My guess is another CR.

But a shutdown game of chicken/stare down will be interesting to see how it shakes out with the Dems (e.g. how much resistance they put up).


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