Blu-ray/HD-DVD format war discussion thread....... [Archive] - Page 3

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-03-2008, 11:51 AM

Was it Bill that wrote the first one? I guess that wouldn't surprise me. I remember being very disappointed after reading that since it made the site nearly unreadable for me. I won't guess what kind of influence Bill's stance has on other editorials, but there is probably some.

I can understand the frustration that would create the article, but I think it is inappropriate for an editorialist to be asking for one company (or group) to step down just to end a format war which customers seem unwilling to decide. It makes sense to want the war to be over since consumers are better off in that situation, but repeated columns suggesting one competitor just walk away seems childish.

Yes, Bill wrote the original article you were referring to.

Atocep

01-03-2008, 12:10 PM

If you take that stance, then the stand-alone players are much closer than the HD-DVD camp suggests (currently around a 180-200K difference in favor of HD-DVD). They can't possibly claim anywhere close to the lead they are claiming (using the dimished sales percentage logic that you present).

I really wonder why I bother, but whatever, here goes.

I've ready my 2 posts and your responses over and over and I don't understand what you're trying to argue. Does Blu-Ray have a major retailer who's numbers aren't included in stand-alone sales? Are HDDVD players being given away if you buy a movie?

The reason the numbers are closer than what is being quoted is Walmart numbers are not factored in at all. Also, Sony over the past few months, especially over black friday, has been more aggressive than Toshiba in BOGO offers. That means movie sales numbers aren't accurate. It doesn't mean Sony is made up of evil people who are commiting crimes against humanity and Toshiba is made of people on a holy crusade to rid the planet of all things bad. I'm not spinning anything in anyone's favor, I'm simply trying to look past the spin.

As far as I'm concerned, a sale is a sale. All of this bobbing and weaving over HD-DVD winning the stand-alone war vs. BR having a big lead when PS3's are included vs. more Blu-ray sales are due to BOGO sales is mostly spin and nothing more. As you said, Blu-ray is winning the overall battle at this point.

The definition of sale is a transfer of property for money or credit. Giving something away is not a sale and is a way of getting a larger market share.

It should be noted that HD-DVD has received just as many BOGO sales during December as their competitor, yet they still failed to beat BR in any one week. Even when they were on level ground in that regard, HD-DVD still couldn't pull out a weekly win.

Ok, I don't care. I wasn't making a pro-HDDVD argument. All I said was the movie sales numbers are closer than they appear, but still favor Blu-Ray. Is that inaccurate?

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-03-2008, 01:06 PM

I really wonder why I bother, but whatever, here goes.

I've ready my 2 posts and your responses over and over and I don't understand what you're trying to argue. Does Blu-Ray have a major retailer who's numbers aren't included in stand-alone sales? Are HDDVD players being given away if you buy a movie?

The reason the numbers are closer than what is being quoted is Walmart numbers are not factored in at all. Also, Sony over the past few months, especially over black friday, has been more aggressive than Toshiba in BOGO offers. That means movie sales numbers aren't accurate. It doesn't mean Sony is made up of evil people who are commiting crimes against humanity and Toshiba is made of people on a holy crusade to rid the planet of all things bad. I'm not spinning anything in anyone's favor, I'm simply trying to look past the spin.

Ok, I don't care. I wasn't making a pro-HDDVD argument. All I said was the movie sales numbers are closer than they appear, but still favor Blu-Ray. Is that inaccurate?

Couple of points (and I'm glad you bothered because you do make some good points):

1. The Wal-Mart factor. I've looked into this a bit more just because I didn't have a full understanding of it the last time it came up. I'll agree that it's not included in the NPD numbers. However, they are a neutral retailer in this format war. Are there firm numbers released by Wal-Mart that demonstrate the actual sales numbers? If they're coming out of the Toshiba or HD-DVD camp, I don't want to see them any more than the nutty stats that Sony or the BR camp puts out. Firm numbers from Wal-Mart would obviously clear this up in a big hurry. Also, in regards to Wal-Mart, are you saying only the movie sales aren't included or does that not include the $99 units that were sold either?

2. I still disagree that the sales numbers aren't accurate. BR sold X,XXX units and HD-DVD sold X,XXX units (Wal-Mart or no Wal-Mart). Selling the units at a discounted or package (i.e. BOGO) price does not change the number of units moved. It only changes the profit that was made per unit for each one sold. If you're arguing that Sony didn't make much off the increase in units moved due to BOGO and other deals, then I'd agree, but their purpose isn't profit in that case, which I think you'd also agree.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-04-2008, 07:40 AM

Another BOGO deal at Amazon. Looks like Disney is the main target of the latest sale.........

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=pe_19290_7746570_fe_txt_1/?docId=1000183011&tag=bluraynews-20

Marc Vaughan

01-04-2008, 08:52 AM

I've jumped fully into the BluRay camp since my son got a PS-3 at xmas ... I'm now in the 'wow that looks cool, must hire/buy another movie' camp fully :D

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-04-2008, 09:16 AM

I've jumped fully into the BluRay camp since my son got a PS-3 at xmas ... I'm now in the 'wow that looks cool, must hire/buy another movie' camp fully :D

I actually am a PS3 owner who hasn't bought a single BR movie at this point. Part of my waiting is that I plan on building a home theater in my basement in the coming months. Once I do that and put the PS3 in down there with the full speaker system, I'll likely have much more of a reason to purchase some BR movies.

Daimyo

01-04-2008, 03:35 PM

BDA buys Warner exclusivity. War is over.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/04/warner-goes-blu-ray-exclusive/

Flasch186

01-04-2008, 03:56 PM

BDA buys Warner exclusivity. War is over.

:eek:

Daimyo

01-04-2008, 03:58 PM

I guess this is official now:

http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812,1700383,00.html

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-04-2008, 10:17 PM

BDA buys Warner exclusivity. War is over.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/04/warner-goes-blu-ray-exclusive/

Obviously a huge development. With Warner now on Blu-ray, the format war is all but over. Most expect Paramount and Universal to break their exclusive contract with HD-DVD in 6 months or less. Additionally, it's a huge shift for the console market. The PS3 is going to get a boost in market share now that Blu-ray becomes the primary HD standard.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-04-2008, 10:31 PM

Wow. The dominoes are already falling. HD-DVD has cancelled its entire event at the upcoming CES 2008. Early comments from analysts point to a major upsizing of Blu-ray shelf space in most retailers as soon as the end of January.

http://wesleytech.com/ces-hd-dvd-event-canceled-due-to-warner-announcement/483/

wade moore

01-04-2008, 10:35 PM

FWIW - I've never liked my console being my movie player. Even if I had a PS3 I'd want a stand-alone Blu-Ray player when it came time to go Hi Def DVD - I never have my game system on my main TV.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-04-2008, 10:41 PM

An article from CNBC stating that HD-DVD will not be able to survive this decision. Surprising that an editorial this strong would come so quickly from a company owned by Universal, who is currently HD-DVD exclusive.............

http://www.cnbc.com/id/22508081

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-04-2008, 10:45 PM

FWIW - I've never liked my console being my movie player. Even if I had a PS3 I'd want a stand-alone Blu-Ray player when it came time to go Hi Def DVD - I never have my game system on my main TV.

The PS3 is generally regarded as the best Blu-ray player available on the market outside of models over $1,000. The reason is that the PS3 gets much more regular firmware updates than the stand-alone counterparts. There's some features on the disc that aren't available to some stand-alone players that are already equipped on the PS3.

Raiders Army

01-04-2008, 10:48 PM

stevew

01-04-2008, 11:47 PM

I wish there was backwards compatability in the 400 dollar PS3. I never bought a PS2, there are probably quite a few games I would buy that I didn't play. Not to mention the shitload of kids games available for like 10-15 bucks used. I'll still end up getting one eventually, primarily for hi-def movies, but probably not in the next 6 months. From what I've seen, and I haven't seen all the BD players, the stand alone units are just way too slow for start up and load. I know I could just buy a PS2 for 130 bucks, but I'm basically out of room in my entertainment center, and my component/HDMI TV hookups are pretty much maxed out.

stevew

01-04-2008, 11:48 PM

Fidatelo

01-05-2008, 12:07 AM

That's old man thinking! Convergence is coming, slowly but surely.

It's only old-man thinking if the player is actually any good (which it sounds like the PS3 is). For instance, the 360 is a terrible DVD player, so I still use my 8 year old Toshiba.

Daimyo

01-05-2008, 12:30 AM

Dola,

Oh, yeah, they totally need to get the multi-format discs out too, that's another hold up. I'm absolutely not going to be buying stuff on BD and DVD, just so they can watch it in the kids room.

Lack of hybrid discs
Region locked
Expensive
Immature standard (how many current BD players will be made obsolete by profile 1.1 and 2?)

Why did people claim BR was better technology again?

wade moore

01-05-2008, 08:08 AM

The PS3 is generally regarded as the best Blu-ray player available on the market outside of models over $1,000. The reason is that the PS3 gets much more regular firmware updates than the stand-alone counterparts. There's some features on the disc that aren't available to some stand-alone players that are already equipped on the PS3.

That's old man thinking! Convergence is coming, slowly but surely.

My expectation is that the stand-alones will quickly surpass the PS3 if BD really has won. For me personally (and I'm not trying to generalize for the rest of the country) I don't even have an HD TV besides the 19" I bought for my XBOX 360. I'm at least a year away from having a TV that I would even be considering a BD Player for.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-07-2008, 07:37 AM

Looks like the cards may fall much quicker than anyone had anticipated. Paramount has already issued a press release stating that they can get out of the HD-DVD deal if they want to do so. Universal has also release a press release stating that they have no contractual obligation to remain a HD-DVD exclusive studio and can switch at any point. Couple that with the fact that Bill Gates made no mention of HD-DVD in his keynote speech (originally, the speech was supposed to be 30% about HD-DVD) and it appears that the format war may end rather quickly.

Bill over at the Digital Bits has also said that the Blu-ray studios may be planning an exchange program to ease tension among HD-DVD adopters. The studios would allow HD-DVD owner to exchange some of their HD-DVD movies for a Blu-ray version. No specific details have emerged at this point.

BrianD

01-07-2008, 09:06 AM

For people in the Blu-Ray market, now might be a good time to jump on the BOGO sales. If HD-DVD falls out of the mix, one would think that Sony could shift out of their market-share sales mode and more into a profit mode. They probably won't raise prices, but there won't be as much incentive to offer great deals.

Flasch186

01-07-2008, 09:11 AM

Microsoft just had their guy on CNBC and he did not seem very positive regarding HDDVD going forward, lots of "We'll see, we dont know, we hope, etc." I thought I heard something about Blu-ray and Microsoft but I missed that part.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-07-2008, 09:30 AM

Two more exclusive BR announcements at CES 2008. First, Apple has announced that Blu-ray will be the sole HD drive available for Apple computers. I'm not sure this is too much of a surprise as the last thing they'd want to do is support a Microsoft-backed format.

Also, the President of Phillips let the word slip at CES 2008 today that Target will be removing HD-DVD from its shelves and will exclusively stock Blu-ray players and movies.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/06/live-coverage-from-the-philips-press-event/

President of Philips Consumer Electronics, Stewart Muller, announced that Target will go Blu-ray exclusive.

It does seem a little weird, an announcement like this not being announced by Sony first. However, Muller announced this at Philips' CES press conference. We will let you know directly when Target confirms this.

Along with this announcement he announced a new Blu-ray player, the BDP7200 Blu-ray player. We can't name any specifications as of right now.

We will have more on the Target going Blu-ray exclusive, as soon as it is released. And stay tuned for more news from CES 2008!

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-07-2008, 11:54 AM

Lack of hybrid discs
Region locked
Expensive
Immature standard (how many current BD players will be made obsolete by profile 1.1 and 2?)

Why did people claim BR was better technology again?

1. Blu-ray discs will have a playable movie file on each disc by the end of the year that can be used on any digital media outputs (video MP3 players, PC's, personal video players, etc.). It's not technically a hybrid disc, but it allows the user a lot of options. Also, movies can be streamed directly from the PS3 onto standard definition devices such as the PSP.

2. Blu-ray regions are set up much differently than DVD regions. Most of the west Asian countries and all of the American continents are in the same region. So U.S. users can watch Asian films without worrying about any region locks. Here's the 3 regions:

A North America, Central America, South America, Japan, Taiwan, North Korea, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Southeast Asia.

B Europe, Greenland, French territories, Middle East, Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.

C India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Mainland China, Pakistan, Russia, Central, and South Asia.

3. The average Blu-ray player is only $35 more than its HD-DVD counterpart. While the expense argument held up a year ago, it doesn't hold much water at this point.

4. Most BR players can be fully upgraded via firmware updates.

stevew

01-07-2008, 12:06 PM

3. The average Blu-ray player is only $35 more than its HD-DVD counterpart. While the expense argument held up a year ago, it doesn't hold much water at this point.

That's really not true, i mean it might be a fact from a staff meeting or something, but the gap for the average consumer, and the average unit sold is much greater. The entry level market is still at a 100-150 dollar price difference at any given time. I guess if you wanted the 1080p HDDVD, then it becomes closer, although I bet they primarily sell a ton more HDA-3's than HDA-30(5)'s

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-07-2008, 12:21 PM

That's really not true, i mean it might be a fact from a staff meeting or something, but the gap for the average consumer, and the average unit sold is much greater. The entry level market is still at a 100-150 dollar price difference at any given time. I guess if you wanted the 1080p HDDVD, then it becomes closer, although I bet they primarily sell a ton more HDA-3's than HDA-30(5)'s

If you look at the bargain units, the HD-DVD baseline unit is $199 while the Blu-ray is $299. The comparison is somewhat futile at this point, as the HD-DVD player won't be much more than a upconverting DVD player by the end of this year. Also, the baseline Blu-ray player is expected to sell for $150-200 in retail stores by the end of this calendar year.

BrianD

01-07-2008, 12:23 PM

Also, the baseline Blu-ray player is expected to sell for $150-200 in retail stores by the end of this calendar year.

Was that expectation set before or after the recent HD-DVD news? Sony is still losing money on their players, right? Are they going to be able to make a profit on a $150-$200 unit?

Daimyo

01-07-2008, 02:22 PM

1. Blu-ray discs will have a playable movie file on each disc by the end of the year that can be used on any digital media outputs (video MP3 players, PC's, personal video players, etc.). It's not technically a hybrid disc, but it allows the user a lot of options. Also, movies can be streamed directly from the PS3 onto standard definition devices such as the PSP.
I don't see how the first is near comparable to HDDVD hybrid discs to the average user. The latter is a benefit of a specific player/media device and not of BR in general.

2. Blu-ray regions are set up much differently than DVD regions. Most of the west Asian countries and all of the American continents are in the same region. So U.S. users can watch Asian films without worrying about any region locks. Here's the 3 regions:
No region coding >>> improved region coding

3. The average Blu-ray player is only $35 more than its HD-DVD counterpart. While the expense argument held up a year ago, it doesn't hold much water at this point.
I'll call BS on this one. Cheapest HDDVD player is regulary $190-200. The cheapest BR player I've seen is $300. You can get a very good HDDVD player for $250-300. I don't think there are any comparable BR players for under $500.

4. Most BR players can be fully upgraded via firmware updates.
The way you worded that, it is technically true since most BR players are PS3s and PS3s can be upgraded (although not the limited audio codec support which may start to suck with HD DTS is taking off). However, most of the people who purchased standalone BR players will simply be out of luck for profile 1.1 and 2.0.

Daimyo

01-07-2008, 02:27 PM

Was that expectation set before or after the recent HD-DVD news? Sony is still losing money on their players, right? Are they going to be able to make a profit on a $150-$200 unit?
I don't think they have a choice. Winning the format war was the easy part. They still have to compete against all the other HD offerings (cable, VOB, IPTV, etc) as well as regular old SD DVDs. That would have been true for whichever format prevailed. If BR can't get players down to <$200 and media retailing for <$20 they will never go mainstream.

I think the hope is that now that the format war is decided more people will adopt BR and they can take advantage of that volume to lower production costs and get to a mass market price point quicker. If nothing else HDDVD proved that a significant market exists for <$200 standalone HD players. The various BOGO deals showed there is a market for reasonable priced HD media.

rowech

01-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Getting closer and closer to buying a PS3 now. If XBOX developed a BR player for the 360, I'd buy it right now.

BrianD

01-07-2008, 04:08 PM

I think the hope is that now that the format war is decided more people will adopt BR and they can take advantage of that volume to lower production costs and get to a mass market price point quicker. If nothing else HDDVD proved that a significant market exists for <$200 standalone HD players. The various BOGO deals showed there is a market for reasonable priced HD media.

Out of curiosity, why is it that Sony is losing money on the Blu-Ray format? Is it because they have lots of unused production capacity adding to overhead costs? If so, increased production should help. Or is it that this technology is still so new that all of the production components are still expensive? If this is the case, I would expect higher production to put them farther in the hole.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-08-2008, 06:40 AM

Out of curiosity, why is it that Sony is losing money on the Blu-Ray format? Is it because they have lots of unused production capacity adding to overhead costs? If so, increased production should help. Or is it that this technology is still so new that all of the production components are still expensive? If this is the case, I would expect higher production to put them farther in the hole.

No, it's not like the PS3 where the pieces cost more than what they sell it for. Sony is losing money on it right now because they are spending a ton on marketing and PR along with the unused capacity that you mentioned. On a strictly per unit basis, they're making money on each unit sold assuming they can win this war, resulting in ramped up production and lower PR costs because they aren't fighting a format war.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-08-2008, 06:43 AM

Paramount will announce possibly as soon as today that they are buying out of their exclusive contract due to a release clause that triggered when Warner went Blu-ray. Financial Times of London is reporting that Universal may follow suit as soon as the end of this week.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Paramount in HD DVD blow
By Matthew Garrahan and Mariko Sanchanta in Las Vegas

Published: January 8 2008 02:49

Paramount is poised to drop its support of HD DVD after Warner Brothers’ recent backing of Sony’s Blu-ray technology, in a move that will sound the death knell of HD DVD and bring the home entertainment format war to a definitive end.

Paramount and DreamWorks Animation, which makes the Shrek films, came out in support of HD DVD last summer, joining General Electric’s Universal Studios as the main backers of the Toshiba format.

However, Paramount, which is owned by Viacom, is understood to have a clause in its contract with the HD DVD camp that would allow it to switch sides in the event of Warner Bros backing Blu-ray, according to people familiar with the situation.

Paramount is set to have a bumper 2008 with several likely blockbusters, including the latest instalment in the Indiana Jones franchise.

Paramount joining the Blu-ray camp would leave HD DVD likely to suffer the same fate as Sony’s now obsolete Betamax video technology, which lost out to VHS in a similar format war in the 1980s.

Warners decision last week to throw its weight behind Blu-ray saw it join Walt Disney, 20th Century Fox and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer as backers of the Sony format.

The Warners move gives Blu-ray about 70 per cent of Hollywood’s output, although the format’s grip on film content will increase further when Paramount comes aboard.

It is unclear whether DreamWorks Animation has the same get-out clause in its contract with the HD DVD camp.

However, Paramount and DreamWorks have a close relationship, with Paramount distributing DreamWorks Animation films. The two companies also signed their HD DVD contracts at the same time. Meanwhile, Universal has declined to comment on its next-generation DVD plans since the Warners move.

Sir Howard Stringer, chief executive of Sony, on Monday held out an olive branch, saying the company would be “open to dialogue” with the HD DVD camp to “grow the market”. The move came as new figures showed that Blu-ray had opened up a decisive lead over the rival home entertainment format.

Sir Howard said: “We are not going to push people around. We’ll talk to anyone ... we have a lot of work to do to grow the market. We’ll be systematic and open to dialogue at all times.”

He added that Sony still had “a lot of work” to do to get Blu-ray “widely accepted” among American consumers.

“With Warner’s support you saw billboards going up in different places and you saw television commercials getting more and more sophisticated and that’s what we’ll continue doing,” said Sir Howard.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-08-2008, 01:06 PM

Sony shows off a PS3 running with Blu-ray 2.0 at CES 2008, making the PS3 the only BR player with 2.0 capability. This firmware allows studios to include standard def versions of the movie on the BR disc which can be copied onto any memory stick/card and viewed on the go. The 2.0 firmware will likely be released sometime this summer..........

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/006194.html

Sony Demos Copying From Blu-ray Disc

LAS VEGAS -- The concept of copying a lower-resolution version of a film from a packaged media disc to a portable device is not new--in fact, late last year, Fox and Warner released the first standard definition titles to offer this capability (on Live Free, Die Hard and Harry Potter: The Order of the Phoenix, respectively).

Sony today demonstrated the next level of disc copying. At the company's booth at CES, Sony demonstrated how you could put a Blu-ray Disc movie into a Playstation 3 and copy the film to a Playstation Portable or a Memory Stick. "This way, you can have a portable copy you can take with you," explains David Bishop, president of Sony Pictures Home Entertainment.

"There was always the promise of greater interactivity. You'll see that coming in the new year," Bishop added. In addition to the PSP copying example, Sony also demonstrated how you could download ring tones and new content to a BD Live player, using Men in Black as the example.

BD Live is proving to be a big catchphrase at the show: Panasonic announced its BD Live player yesterday, Fox showcased an early version of its Alien vs. Predator multiplayer game at the Blu-ray Disc Association's booth, and Sony showed its interactive Men in Black trivia game. The game was being played by two people in two locations on a Playstation 3.

stevew

01-08-2008, 01:16 PM

stevew

01-08-2008, 01:23 PM

Also out of CES-

Sad to see that Sony is discontinuing their RPTV's, including the SXRD line. Now if you want a Sony bigger than 52", you'll have to go up to the 70" XBR LCD which costs around 33k.

RPTV's were a bit of a pain in the ass, when it comes to bulb replacement. We rarely sell them anymore at work, last year they sold like hotcakes.

Also, it does look like they're finally making a 37" LCD in the XBR series.. Should be great for a lot of people with a TV cabinent that they don't want to replace. Most entertainment centers limit you to about a 37" wide tv.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-08-2008, 01:46 PM

Wow, that's basically useless to me. Not going to buy a psp anytime in this lifetime.

I'm guessing that you can't just put the dvd onto a memory stick, and then create a DVD from it either.

Still nowhere close to as good as HD-DVD, which at least had the right idea on the whole mess. Not every device in the house is going to be a blu ray player for at least 10 more years. Most people are not going to want to buy multiple copies of the same movie so that it plays on the various players in the house.

Worst comes to worst, at least create cheap technology where I can play the blu ray on my ps3, and have it stream to an SD set in my childrens room.

Incorrect. The standard def can be copied onto any memory card format and played on anything that will take digital files. He used PSP as an example because he's a Sony pimp, but you can play it on a iPod, Zune, PC, laptop, etc. Also, the standard def movie contains no copyright DRM protection, so it's easily copied and burned to a DVD if you choose to do so.

Chubby

01-08-2008, 01:51 PM

Daimyo

01-08-2008, 01:55 PM

stevew

01-08-2008, 02:00 PM

Incorrect. The standard def can be copied onto any memory card format and played on anything that will take digital files. He used PSP as an example because he's a Sony pimp, but you can play it on a iPod, Zune, PC, laptop, etc. Also, the standard def movie contains no copyright DRM protection, so it's easily copied and burned to a DVD if you choose to do so.

I get absolutely none of that info out of the article. All i see is that you can transfer it to a memory stick, ie the sony standard one that's on average 2-3 times more expensive than an SD card, to play it on PSP. If all of that other stuff is true, then great. But there's nothing in that article about DRM free copies, etc. And it's still a much bigger pain in the ass than simply flipping the disk over and playing it in an SD player.

cartman

01-08-2008, 02:14 PM

yep, the term "Memory Stick" isn't generic, and refers to the Sony format.

stevew

01-08-2008, 02:16 PM

I'd also imagine it'll be a significantly compressed copy unless you're required to use a 4 gig memory stick(tm) for transfer.

BrianD

01-08-2008, 03:17 PM

Daimyo

01-08-2008, 03:34 PM

I'd also imagine it'll be a significantly compressed copy unless you're required to use a 4 gig memory stick(tm) for transfer.

I don't think that's actually a big deal... compression has come along way since DVD. Presumably they're using H.264/mpeg4 which would give file sizes of around 1GB at DVD resolution with small loss of quality or ~300MB at the PSP's resolution.

Fidatelo

01-08-2008, 03:34 PM

The real sad day will be when Plasma's disappear.

Daimyo

01-08-2008, 03:45 PM

BrianD

01-08-2008, 04:09 PM

LCDs and plasmas may have gotten reasonably priced, but I have never seen an example of either technology I would be happy to use for my primary viewing. In fact, when my CRT tubes finally die, if I can replace them for the cost of a brand new LCD/plasma, I'll go that route.

KWhit

01-08-2008, 04:12 PM

LCDs and plasmas may have gotten reasonably priced, but I have never seen an example of either technology I would be happy to use for my primary viewing.

You're kidding. You've never seen a plasma or LCD that you would be happy with?

rowech

01-08-2008, 04:13 PM

I keep hearing people say this. People need to see these TV's side by side with their regular TV.

BrianD

01-08-2008, 04:14 PM

You're kidding. You've never seen a plasma or LCD that you would be happy with?

Nope. At least not under $15,000. I would never spend that much on a TV anyway, but I have looked at a few with $10,000+ price tags and decided I still like my CRT better.

Marc Vaughan

01-08-2008, 04:17 PM

Again, that is pretty useless.

What percent of the population have video devices that accept memory sticks? (the only flash memory mentioned in the article) What percentage of the population have the ability and/or hardware and software to put that file on a standard DVD?

What percent of the population have a standard DVD player?

You really want to argue that this is anywhere near equivalent to HDDVD hybrid discs?

I'd have thought it was fairly high ...

Most digital camera's these days do at least limited video recording and use memory cards, if you have a psp then you have a playback device .... I'd say 'Ipod' as well but I don't know if the Ipod video format is a 'standard' or one of their happily encrypted ones (I'm betting on the latter).

Fidatelo

01-08-2008, 04:24 PM

Nope. At least not under $15,000. I would never spend that much on a TV anyway, but I have looked at a few with $10,000+ price tags and decided I still like my CRT better.

I can understand this with LCD, given the motion-blur and contrast issues... but Plasma? Seriously? There is no CRT on earth I would take over my 50" Pioneer plasma, which cost $2200.

Eaglesfan27

01-08-2008, 04:26 PM

I never really understood RPTVs... at least not in the last two years when LCDs and Plasmas started getting reasonably priced. If you really want size/money value go front projection. Otherwise LCD/Plasma just seem so much better.

The SXRD has one of the best pictures I've ever seen in a HDTV. Should I be stocking up on lightbulbs? Will they become hard to find with the discontinuation of the SXRD line?

Daimyo

01-08-2008, 04:37 PM

I'd have thought it was fairly high ...

Most digital camera's these days do at least limited video recording and use memory cards, if you have a psp then you have a playback device .... I'd say 'Ipod' as well but I don't know if the Ipod video format is a 'standard' or one of their happily encrypted ones (I'm betting on the latter).
I don't think anyone expects digital cameras to be used a video playback devices. I doubt most have enough battery power to even last through a full length movie! iPods do not accept memory sticks. I don't think many non-Sony products do. We don't even have any official word that the SD video on BR will be playable on anything other than a PSP. Mizzou B-ball fan claims the SD copy of the video will be DRM-free and playable on any portable video device, but that doesn't seem likely to me. Especially since Apple and Amazon basically sell the same thing with DRM for $10+ a movie. *shurg*

There are just over 11M PSPs sold in North America. There are over 130M standard-def DVD players sold in North America. Mizzou B-ball touts feature this as comparable to hybrid HDDVDs, I just don't see it.

BrianD

01-08-2008, 04:38 PM

I can understand this with LCD, given the motion-blur and contrast issues... but Plasma? Seriously? There is no CRT on earth I would take over my 50" Pioneer plasma, which cost $2200.

LCD is saddled with motion-blur, contrast issues and the screen door effect. I don't remember any specific problem with plasma technology, but I've never been impressed with the picture.

Fidatelo

01-08-2008, 04:45 PM

LCD is saddled with motion-blur, contrast issues and the screen door effect. I don't remember any specific problem with plasma technology, but I've never been impressed with the picture.

Like I said, I understand the LCD thing (I don't like them either, hence my comment about it being sad when they overtake Plasma).

Plasma though... you aren't looking at the right ones if you aren't impressed by the picture. The only real downside to plasma (compared to CRT) is the potential for burn-in, although I've never even seen so much as a ghost image on mine, and I use my Xbox and Wii on it daily (although I used to on my buddy's Samsung that he bought a couple years ago when we'd play games).

Daimyo

01-08-2008, 04:58 PM

BrianD

01-08-2008, 05:01 PM

Plasma though... you aren't looking at the right ones if you aren't impressed by the picture. The only real downside to plasma (compared to CRT) is the potential for burn-in, although I've never even seen so much as a ghost image on mine, and I use my Xbox and Wii on it daily (although I used to on my buddy's Samsung that he bought a couple years ago when we'd play games).

CRT has the same burn-in potential, but with either technology you have to work fairly hard to get the burn-in to happen. The only time I have actually seen burn-in happen was on a set in a bar with a static image on it for a LONG time.

I have checked out all kinds of TVs in regular retail outlets (American, Best Buy, etc) as well as AV specialty stores, and nothing has been watchable for even the amount of time I was in the store. I just keep hoping that technologies improve by the time I need to replace my TV.

BrianD

01-08-2008, 05:06 PM

The problem with plasma is that big box stores don't usually carry the good ones. In the mainstream LCD is the default choice and low-end plasmas pretty much only exist as a value choice at larger sizes. That is unfortunate. I imagine plasma will have to position itself going forward as a high-end, niche product.

Personally I take front projection over both, but its certainly not for everyone.

The latest version of all of my shopping was to fill a movie/media room I am having built in my new house. I started looking for a big TV to plug everything into and decided that nothing fit the bill. I then moved on to looking at projectors and ran into the same problem. LCD and SXRD projectors seemed to do better than the TVs, but I still ended up with a CRT projector. Sadly I seem to have very good vision when it comes to video and as a result, I am very picky.

Fidatelo

01-08-2008, 05:09 PM

...nothing has been watchable for even the amount of time I was in the store. I just keep hoping that technologies improve by the time I need to replace my TV.

:eek:

This honestly surprises me. Not even watchable? I can't see how it could get much better without actually being there...

BrianD

01-08-2008, 05:54 PM

stevew

01-08-2008, 09:05 PM

The SXRD has one of the best pictures I've ever seen in a HDTV. Should I be stocking up on lightbulbs? Will they become hard to find with the discontinuation of the SXRD line?

I think maybe you should pray it breaks during the extended warranty period, and then opt for a Pioneer plasma. :)

In short of that, it might not be the worst thing in the world to have an extra couple sitting around. I would assume that it's a covered repair if it breaks during warranty, however. Speaking more on the future.

stevew

01-08-2008, 09:08 PM

I suppose that might be a bit strong. Let's just say I was disappointed enough to not want to watch. I could get by watching one at a friend's house, but I'm quite sure that I would constantly be noticing the differences.

Cable or dish? A lot of times the cable signals can be quite shitty. And supposedly within 2 years, they should have the extreme contrast Pioneer Kuro out. Basically it has infinite contrast. Should be the best thing ever probably.

KWhit

01-08-2008, 09:23 PM

I love my 50" Pioneer Plasma. It's not a high end model by any means, but the picture is amazing, IMO.

BrianD

01-08-2008, 09:27 PM

Cable or dish? A lot of times the cable signals can be quite shitty. And supposedly within 2 years, they should have the extreme contrast Pioneer Kuro out. Basically it has infinite contrast. Should be the best thing ever probably.

I'm not sure what the different stores use as their source material.

The Kuro will be out in two years? That isn't too long to wait for something that can come close to a CRT in contrast.

stevew

01-08-2008, 09:31 PM

I'm not sure what the different stores use as their source material.

The Kuro will be out in two years? That isn't too long to wait for something that can come close to a CRT in contrast.

Something like 2 years. Supposedly the Extreme Contrast technology might be out by the end of the year, and the extremely thin, energy efficient Kuro will be out in about 2.

BrianD

01-08-2008, 09:36 PM

Something like 2 years. Supposedly the Extreme Contrast technology might be out by the end of the year, and the extremely thin, energy efficient Kuro will be out in about 2.

That's cool. It is nice to know that there will be viable options in the near future.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-09-2008, 07:30 AM

Microsoft marketing head says Microsoft will consider Blu-ray add-on to Xbox 360 if Blu-ray becomes the primary HD format..........

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0851332620080108?feedType=nl&feedName=ustechnology

Microsoft's Xbox could consider Blu-ray support
Tue Jan 8, 2008 4:23pm EST

LAS VEGAS (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp's Xbox video gaming unit still fully backs Toshiba Corp's HD-DVD high-definition DVD format but could consider supporting Sony Corp's rival Blu-ray technology should consumers want it, an executive said on Tuesday.

"It should be consumer choice; and if that's the way they vote, that's something we'll have to consider," Albert Penello, group marketing manager for Xbox hardware said when asked whether Microsoft would support a Blu-ray DVD accessory in the event that HD-DVD failed.

Microsoft does not believe the surprise decision last week by Time Warner Inc unit Warner Bros, the top seller of home movies, to abandon HD-DVD format in favor of Blu-ray should affect sales of its Xbox 360 video game console, Penello said.

"I fundamentally don't think ... this has a significant impact on Xbox 360 versus (Sony's) PlayStation 3," Penello told Reuters in an interview at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.

"With the PlayStation 2, DVD was a big part in the beginning, but over time, people were not buying it as a DVD player after first year or two," Penello said.

The Xbox 360 supports a plug-in HD-DVD accessory that is bought separately, while Sony, hoping to give its next-generation video format a leg up, built a Blu-ray player into its PlayStation 3 machine.

"You can't say it's not a bummer, not a setback, but I've seen this battle declared over so many times," Penello said of Warner's decision.

"I want consumers to have a voice in this and I think there are a lot of consumers who bought HD-DVD who are going to have a say in how this shakes out."

Warner Bros is the movie division of media conglomerate Time Warner Inc.

Eaglesfan27

01-09-2008, 08:12 AM

They said the same thing about a year ago.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-09-2008, 10:29 AM

Paramount has issued a statement saying their 'current plan' is to remain in the HD-DVD camp. Certainly, the statement isn't worded nearly as strongly as most HD-DVD supporters would like.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/paramount-current-plan-is-to-support-the-hd-dvd-format-curre/

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-11-2008, 07:25 AM

Universal Studios is the latest HD-DVD defector. Universal's exclusive contract with HD-DVD has expired and has not been renewed. Paramount is expected to opt out of their exclusive agreement with HD-DVD.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/10/universal-hd-dvd-exclusivity-contract-has-expired-sits-non-rene/

Universal HD DVD exclusivity contract has expired, sits non-renewed
Posted Jan 10th 2008 12:39PM by Steven Kim

More news from the format war today, and it isn't good for the red camp.

Daily Variety has confirmed that Universal's agreement to stick with HD DVD has ended and has not been renewed. Additionally, Paramount has an escape clause in its contract that can be exercised following Warner's departure from the (now dwindling) HD DVD ranks.

The article highlights various ongoing commitments both companies have to the format, but we've heard these kind of promises before from studios. It's feeling like a party where everyone leaves at once; nobody wants to be the first out the door, but everyone's looking in that direction.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-15-2008, 01:31 PM

We don't even have any official word that the SD video on BR will be playable on anything other than a PSP. Mizzou B-ball fan claims the SD copy of the video will be DRM-free and playable on any portable video device, but that doesn't seem likely to me. Especially since Apple and Amazon basically sell the same thing with DRM for $10+ a movie. *shurg*

FYI......You might want to let Steve Jobs at MacWorld 2008 know that this isn't possible. He just brought out a Fox Studios Blu-ray movie and ripped a standard-def copy of the movie to an iPod. He clearly stated that there was no copy protection on the ripped copy. I'm not sure how much more information you need to prove that the movie copy on Blu-ray discs is a standard file that can be used on any media playback disc, rather than just the PSP as you continue to suggest.

Easy Mac

01-15-2008, 01:33 PM

FYI......You might want to let Steve Jobs at MacWorld 2008 know that this isn't possible. He just brought out a Fox Studios Blu-ray movie and ripped a standard-def copy of the movie to an iPod. He clearly stated that there was no copy protection on the ripped copy. I'm not sure how much more information you need to prove that the movie copy on Blu-ray discs is a standard file that can be used on any media playback disc, rather than just the PSP as you continue to suggest.

Apple's PR is far more vague on the portability:

The new iTunes Digital Copy provides a consumer friendly way to transfer a DVD purchase to a user’s iTunes library. Once a customer buys the DVD, they insert it into their computer, enter a unique code into iTunes and iTunes automatically copies the movie to their iTunes library within minutes. Customers own the iTunes Digital Copy of the movie and it has all of the same great viewing options as other iTunes Store video content, including the ability to be viewed on a computer, iPod with video, iPhone and Apple TV. Each DVD will only transfer its iTunes Digital Copy to one iTunes library

Subby

01-15-2008, 01:39 PM

I love my 50" Pioneer Plasma. It's not a high end model by any means, but the picture is amazing, IMO.
Word. We have a Phillips 42" plasma. We bought it two years ago at Best Buy and I did shit for research. I am sure I overpaid and that it is at the bottom of the pile of what is out there for plasma televisions.

That said, the HD programming quality it shows still kicks the shit out of anything on the standard def television we have. The difference is huge.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-15-2008, 01:40 PM

Apple's PR is far more vague on the portability:

The policy you cite is for standard DVD's, not Blu-ray discs. That policy has little relevance to the Blu-ray products. I'm sure they'll be refining/reviewing policies to take into account the new features on the Blu-ray discs. Reportedly, Apple will also be announcing that they will also offer BR drives as their only HD disc drive option. I'm sure that Sony and Apple are already planning several agreements concerning BR policies.

stevew

01-15-2008, 01:49 PM

So, it can easily rip this material if I have a pc-BD drive? Good thing those are practically free :rolleyes:

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-15-2008, 02:22 PM

So, it can easily rip this material if I have a pc-BD drive? Good thing those are practically free :rolleyes:

A Blu-ray stand-alone (with a memory card slot) or a PS3 will also rip the copy.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-22-2008, 07:52 AM

Tons of new news................

Amazing numbers here as HD movie players now account for 35% of total movie player sales in Japan............

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080118/tc_afp/japanelectronicselectricaldvd;_ylt=AqKlPh0zQe76iZVJxHqjCygjtBAF

Last week's sales following the Warner announcement have Blu-ray holding a 85:15 edge in movie sales. Blu-ray stand-alone players (PS3 and 360 add-on not included) outsold the HD-DVD stand-alone players by a 70:30 margin despite the HD-DVD players being over $200 cheaper............

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=11894

Net HD DVD sales, according to Nielsen, constituted only 15% of hi-def disc sales last week. And the top HD DVD seller, The Kingdom, sold just 10% as many copies as the top Blu-ray Disc release, 3:10 to Yuma.

Rumor is that most HD-DVD players and movies will be phased out by mid-2008........

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/rumormill.html#012108

Wal-Mart plans to stop carrying HD-DVD players in their stores.........

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2008/01/07/intv.blu.ray.rising.pope.cnn?iref=videosearch

Best Buy offering incentives for customers to choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD movies. They are offering gift cards with the purchase of 2 or more Blu-ray movies........

http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=5420

SnowMan

01-25-2008, 08:35 PM

Figures, I made the jump just before all this stuff happened...and went with HD-DVD when it didn't seem either format would "win." O well, at least I only have a few movies other than the freebies that came with the player.

SackAttack

01-25-2008, 10:42 PM

Best Buy offering incentives for customers to choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD movies. They are offering gift cards with the purchase of 2 or more Blu-ray movies........

http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=5420

Only with select titles, and that ad went to bed well before Warner's announcement. I don't think it's an incentive for anybody to "choose" anything.

It's an incentive for people to buy movies, since we still sell 10x as many DVDs as we do both HD formats combined.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-28-2008, 08:44 AM

It's an incentive for people to buy movies, since we still sell 10x as many DVDs as we do both HD formats combined.

That will likely change once HD-DVD is phased out. In Japan, where the format war is all but over, HD movie sales now account for 1/3 of all movie media sales. People in America have been holding out due to the dual format issue. Sales should heat up substantially in the summer and fall.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-28-2008, 08:46 AM

cartman

01-28-2008, 08:55 AM

New NPD number in for the past week. Blu-ray disc sales eclipse 80%+ for the second week in a row. This week, Blu-ray accounted for 85% of all HD movie sales. I'd be shocked if Universal and Paramount didn't make the jump in the next month or so.

I'm hearing some rumblings that the overall number of HD titles sold is down since Warner Bros. announcement. So while BR's percentage of titles sold has increased, the actual number of titles sold hasn't.

That's the big fear for BR at the moment. The idea was that once Warner Brothers picked BR, then momentum would swing and sales would take off. But if there isn't a big takeoff in sales, there is still a slim chance that Warner could change their mind, since they gave a 5 month window until they stopped selling HD-DVD.

Daimyo

01-28-2008, 09:40 AM

That's what I heard about the numbers as well... BR hasn't increased its sales, HDDVD sales have plummeted.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-28-2008, 09:51 AM

I'm hearing some rumblings that the overall number of HD titles sold is down since Warner Bros. announcement. So while BR's percentage of titles sold has increased, the actual number of titles sold hasn't.

That's the big fear for BR at the moment. The idea was that once Warner Brothers picked BR, then momentum would swing and sales would take off. But if there isn't a big takeoff in sales, there is still a slim chance that Warner could change their mind, since they gave a 5 month window until they stopped selling HD-DVD.

There's a bit more to the deal than just Warner switching. Though no one is sure of the exact numbers, there was some form of 'benefit' given by Sony to Warner. Warner won't be switching back. Reportedly, the only reason that Weinstein Bros, Universal and Paramount haven't jumped ship yet is because they know what Warner got and want a similar deal. Unfortunately for them, it would appear that their bargaining leverage is much lower now that Warner has moved over to Blu-ray.

In regards to sales, this week was the first week that no 'Buy one, get one' deals were offered by Amazon on either format. As a result, a lot of people just held off on their purchases more than anything else. Also, Amazon now has a disclaimer on all Warner HD-DVD discs noting that Warner will be BR exclusive in May. That's certainly not going to help the sales of those discs.

Synovia

01-28-2008, 02:37 PM

Daimyo

01-28-2008, 03:14 PM

Probably a higher percentage have memory card devices than multiple player/display combinations.

You seriously want to argue that more people have devices that can play back video off memory sticks than people who have existing DVD players? Because that's really what this is about. You buy a BR disc with this functionality and you get to copy it over to your PSP to watch there (that's the only device mentioned in any of the press). You buy a combo HDDVD disc and you get to play it in any standard DVD player as is.

Synovia

01-28-2008, 03:39 PM

You seriously want to argue that more people have devices that can play back video off memory sticks than people who have existing DVD players?

No, what I'm arguing is that more people have devices that can play video off a memory stick (PCs!) than have DVD players hooked up to MULTIPLE tvs.

People aren't worried about having to buy multiple versions because most people don't have multiple (large) TVs. I'm not going to buy a DVD just so I can play the movie on my 19" TV in the bedroom when I have a 42" TV in the livingroom. I'll buy it on blu-ray, and not give a crap that I can't watch it in the bedroom.

Thats why the combo-disk thing on Hd-dvd seems silly/not important to me. I don't care if I can watch it on the non-hd tv, because I own an HDTV.

SackAttack

01-28-2008, 04:09 PM

No, what I'm arguing is that more people have devices that can play video off a memory stick (PCs!) than have DVD players hooked up to MULTIPLE tvs.

People aren't worried about having to buy multiple versions because most people don't have multiple (large) TVs. I'm not going to buy a DVD just so I can play the movie on my 19" TV in the bedroom when I have a 42" TV in the livingroom. I'll buy it on blu-ray, and not give a crap that I can't watch it in the bedroom.

Thats why the combo-disk thing on Hd-dvd seems silly/not important to me. I don't care if I can watch it on the non-hd tv, because I own an HDTV.

In fairness to the combo-disc feature, that was probably also to entice people to buy HD-DVD when they hadn't yet got an HDTV, because they could watch the DVD side now, on their analog sets, and not have to buy a whole new disc once they did upgrade to an HDTV set.

yeah, the 19"/42" thing applies as well, but I don't think *that* was intended as the primary motivator for combo disc sales.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-29-2008, 07:43 AM

Interesting stand-alone sales numbers for this past week. Blu-ray still outsold HD-DVD players by a 65:35 margin. HD-DVD had good sales numbers due to the clearance prices at multiple retail outlets. The interesting part is that, despite the increase in units moved, the revenue numbers were heavily weighted towards Blu-ray by a 4:1 margin.

Also, Woolworth's (one of England's big retailers) has pulled all support of HD-DVD. Rumors in the U.S. are also circulating that Best Buy, Target, and Circuit City all plan to clear their existing stock of HD-DVD merchandise and not restock after that.

stevew

01-29-2008, 08:05 AM

People aren't worried about having to buy multiple versions because most people don't have multiple (large) TVs. I'm not going to buy a DVD just so I can play the movie on my 19" TV in the bedroom when I have a 42" TV in the livingroom. I'll buy it on blu-ray, and not give a crap that I can't watch it in the bedroom.

Thats why the combo-disk thing on Hd-dvd seems silly/not important to me. I don't care if I can watch it on the non-hd tv, because I own an HDTV.
Do you have kids? Cause a lot of my problem with not having a combo disk is that it limits the movie to the main TV. AKA "MY TV." If I'm buying the latest disney/pixar release, of course I want it on Blu Ray. But my daughter is not going to have a Blu Ray device on her TV anytime soon. Right now I'd basically have to buy two copies of every movie, since they don't have the dual discs. It's one of the reasons why I haven't chosen to upgrade yet, but the most important thing is obviously cost. The portable DVD player in my car probably won't be switched out for a blu ray device anytime soon either.

Once I do move to BD, I want to buy all the movies I buy exclusively on the format. But I gotta be able to use the discs in more than one place.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-29-2008, 09:10 AM

Do you have kids? Cause a lot of my problem with not having a combo disk is that it limits the movie to the main TV. AKA "MY TV."

Once I do move to BD, I want to buy all the movies I buy exclusively on the format. But I gotta be able to use the discs in more than one place.

Let's go through this. I'm not sure you fully understand the options that are available.

This DVD player that will read 7 different memory card formats is $45.

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-DRC245NTV-Progressive-Player-Guardian/dp/B000JTKU4I/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201617933&sr=8-6

This portable DVD player will read 3 different memory card formats. It's $150.

http://www.amazon.com/Initial-IDM-850-Portable-Player-Memory/dp/B00073K4OW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201617933&sr=8-1

Blu-ray discs will contain a standard-definition copy of the movie that can be transferred to any memory card. That memory card can then be plugged directly into either of the DVD players I listed above. So, for as little as $45 plus a memory card (if you don't already own one), your daughter can watch any movie that you have on Blu-ray in her own room. Certainly there is some cost involved, but you don't need a BR player in every room and the movies on a memory card are honestly more portable than the DVD discs we currently carry around.

gstelmack

01-29-2008, 09:13 AM

I have a DVD player built-in to the car with screen and everything. How do I play a memory stick movie on that?

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-29-2008, 09:16 AM

I have a DVD player built-in to the car with screen and everything. How do I play a memory stick movie on that?

You'd burn the movie file onto a DVD. I agree, a bit more trouble in that case, but still can be done.

Synovia

01-29-2008, 09:27 AM

In fairness to the combo-disc feature, that was probably also to entice people to buy HD-DVD when they hadn't yet got an HDTV, because they could watch the DVD side now, on their analog sets, and not have to buy a whole new disc once they did upgrade to an HDTV set.

Yeah, except people who have SDTVs aren't going to pay $35 for a combo disk when they can get the DVD for $8.99

Daimyo

01-29-2008, 09:36 AM

Blu-ray discs will contain a standard-definition copy of the movie that can be transferred to any memory card.
I'd love to see a quote of this from Sony, because all I've seen is that the SD movie will be transferable to PSPs. I have also seen no mention of DRM for these files.

So, for as little as $45 plus a memory card (if you don't already own one), your daughter can watch any movie that you have on Blu-ray in her own room.
Not all BR discs, it will be optional for the studio (a big reason why I don't think it will be as open as you suggest). Hopefully they'll indicate them on the box as well as HDDVD did with combo discs.

Daimyo

01-29-2008, 09:40 AM

You'd burn the movie file onto a DVD. I agree, a bit more trouble in that case, but still can be done.
Of course, for the same amount of trouble I can get the DVD portion of a combo disc onto my iPod, phone, Tivo, etc, etc.

Synovia

01-29-2008, 09:44 AM

I'd love to see a quote of this from Sony, because all I've seen is that the SD movie will be transferable to PSPs. I have also seen no mention of DRM for these files.

At Mac World 2008 they pulled a Blu-ray movie off the disk, and put it on an ipod. So no, not just psp.

stevew

01-29-2008, 09:48 AM

Synovia

01-29-2008, 09:50 AM

If it's really this easy, and supported by the studios, then the concept of easy transfer to SD card is appealing to me. No more discs to scratch. I still remain very skeptical, just seems like they would get killed without copy protection of some sort.

They've got pretty much no copy protection right now. You can do EXACTLY the same thing with a DVD (provided you have an 8gb flash drive).

They seem to have no problem letting the SD content out, its the HD stuff they're worried about.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-29-2008, 10:00 AM

At Mac World 2008 they pulled a Blu-ray movie off the disk, and put it on an ipod. So no, not just psp.

The original announcement was a bit misleading, which is likely part of the reason Daimyo is confused. The original annoucement was done to promote PS3 to PSP functionality. They want people to know just how much they can do with the two of them together.

As time has passed, the Apple presentation by Steve Jobs along with other version 2.0 info has shown that the transfer can be done on any multimedia players. Simply put, Sony and the studios are more than happy to give you the standard definition version as a 'reward' for buying the HD version of the movie.

gstelmack

01-29-2008, 10:50 AM

Yeah, except people who have SDTVs aren't going to pay $35 for a combo disk when they can get the DVD for $8.99

Neither Hi-Def format takes off until you can buy new releases for $20 or less at Wal-Mart / Target / etc.

Mizzou B-ball fan

01-29-2008, 11:05 AM

Neither Hi-Def format takes off until you can buy new releases for $20 or less at Wal-Mart / Target / etc.

That's honestly not that far in the future. New releases at Wal-Mart currently sell in the $26-28 range. With the improving manufacturing to reduce costs over the coming months, it's likely to be even lower than that by the '08 holiday season with a sub-$20 price in early to mid 2009.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-04-2008, 08:18 AM

New numbers in for last week. Blu-ray held 82% of the sales last week, marking their 3rd straight week with a 80%+ share since the Warner move to Blu-ray.

Also, more bad news for HD-DVD as Onyko has said that their first HD-DVD player released last fall will also be their last.

Synovia

02-04-2008, 01:38 PM

I don't see losing Onkyo as a big hit (as they're a niche manufacturer, like denon or marantz), but yeah, the fact that onkyo is pulling out is telling.

bought a PS3 last week :)

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-11-2008, 09:08 AM

Another blow for HD-DVD. Netflix has decided to go Blu-ray exclusive. With Blockbuster also being BR exclusive, there are few places left to rent HD-DVD movies.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/11/netflix-picks-blu-ray-good-luck-renting-an-hd-dvd-soon/

Also, MS has further discounted the HD-DVD 360 add-on to $129. I'm not sure why anyone would even buy at that price point considering they'll likely be priced for $50 or less in six months.

Synovia

02-12-2008, 08:40 AM

I'm not sure why anyone would even buy at that price point considering they'll likely be priced for $50 or less in six months.

Also, if you pay attention, you can get a Toshiba HD-A3 for like $129, and it will do a much better job upconverting than the 360. Theres no reason whatsover to buy that drive unless they start basically giving it away.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-12-2008, 08:47 AM

Best Buy has announced that they will be pushing Blu-ray as the format of choice starting in March. I'm assuming the only reason they aren't totally getting rid of HD-DVD is to avoid any bad blood with Toshiba. Expect other major retailers to follow Best Buy's lead in the coming weeks.

stevew

02-12-2008, 10:38 AM

The "5 free" deals for Blu Ray are done forever? I had figured as much, but they had come out with a new offer the last time they were supposed to expire.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-13-2008, 08:30 AM

Boy, that didn't take long. Toshiba Blu-ray player already being developed with a possible July 2008 release date............

http://1080living.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=30

1080living.com has learned through sources in the distribution and retail business that the buzz is Toshiba already has a Blu-Ray player in the works ready for production for a September 08 release but now this has been pushed up to a July 08 release with recent events in the industry.

This would make sense as Toshiba is a major electronics giant and supporting Blu-Ray will only benefit the company in the long run. Toshiba is currently liquidating HD-DVD players for as little as $90.00 which many analyst consider to be under their cost but as demand dries up Toshiba is trying to cash in on last minute consumers that will be swayed by price alone.

One source cited 2 players are in the works with a price target of $250 and $350.00.

stevew

02-13-2008, 08:32 AM

Toshiba looking good in preseason.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-15-2008, 10:59 AM

More nails in the coffin. Wal-Mart announces they will be dropping all HD-DVD products...........

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9873029-7.html

Rumors continue that Toshiba could pull the plug on HD-DVD in weeks, if not sooner.......

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/home_entertainment/video/e3ib77125d96b22e8601c4db951ac47ca5d?pn=1

Flasch186

02-15-2008, 04:04 PM

done

Icy

02-16-2008, 11:32 AM

The war is finally over, i guess this will also boost the PS3 sales.

Nwobhm

02-18-2008, 06:03 PM

Thedigitalbits.com is reporting that Toshiba has a press conference scheduled in a few hours. It's rumoured that it's to announce that they're dropping the HD-DVD format.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Butter

02-19-2008, 06:59 AM

Confirmed by Toshiba. I always thought Blu-Ray looked like the better technology anyway, so this is actually good news... for when I can afford one of these things in 5 years.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-19-2008, 01:29 PM

Universal Studios has announced their official switch to Blu-ray..........

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=12118

Vinatieri for Prez

02-19-2008, 03:17 PM

Synovia

02-19-2008, 03:44 PM

And in other news, it is being reported that is likely Microsoft will announce some sort of partnership with Netflix where the end game is that XBOX Live will be offering the Netflix catalog for direct to TV download of movies. Provided this gets to HD at some point, my prediction still stands this will start the inexorable march to the end of Blu-Ray at some point in the not to distant future.

Not too distant? A blu-ray disk is 50gb. You know how long it takes to download 50gb over your average cable connection?

Its going to be 10 years minimum before your average user can even think about downloading stuff like this. Consumer internet isn't NEARLY fast enough, or cheap enough.

Daimyo

02-19-2008, 04:06 PM

The disk is 50GB, but you can fit a full length movie in 15-20GB.

rowech

02-19-2008, 06:06 PM

dawgfan

02-19-2008, 06:10 PM

Why do you say this? If I download a movie, I pay for it each time I watch. If I buy it, I watch it for years to come.
Yeah, the rental model will not kill purchases of Blu-Ray disks. There needs to be a reasonable purchase option for downloaded movies to impact Blu-Ray disk sales.

Groundhog

02-19-2008, 06:24 PM

dawgfan

02-19-2008, 06:43 PM

I'd much rather have a physical disk than buy a movie that just sits on my HD. Maybe when googolplexbyte hard drives are common that might change, but for now it's just not practical if you have or plan to buy a shit load of movies.
Well, let's work out the finances here - you can get a 1TB external drive for around $230 (newegg.com); a Blu-Ray disc holds up to 50GB; even if you assume every Blu-Ray release contains enough extras to fill the entire disc (most [none?] don't), that's 20 movies per drive, or about $11 per movie to buy the drive. In reality, most Blu-Ray moves are much smaller, like around 20GB, so that's more like 50 movies per 1TB drive, or less than $5 per movie to buy the drive.

If download options remove the costs of the disc and the associated delivery costs to market, that probably cuts at least $5 off the price of each movie right there. I don't know what they'll do for pricing, but if those pushing download movie purchases are smart, they'll provide some cost incentive.

And obviously the cost of hard drives will continue to drop, which would only improve the math for the download option.

Download times are still an issue, but I suspect many will use options to download movies in the background, when the net connection isn't otherwise in use. I believe Xbox Live already works this way, downloading things at night for users when the box isn't otherwise in use. It's still not a great option when people are buying a lot of movies at once, and it's not as convenient an option for buying movies as gifts for others, but it's not a killer either.

Groundhog

02-19-2008, 06:48 PM

Yeah, it works great for some folks, but the majority of people aren't going to want to dick around with hard disks and connecting them up with TVs and such, not until there are cheap and readily available (and easy to use) integrated hardware that does all this for them will this be taken advantage of by anyone except next-gen console owners and the tech-savvy folks that have been buying blu-ray/HD-DVD since their inception, and they make up a small percentage of overall movie sales (or at least they did last time I checked).

Vinatieri for Prez

02-19-2008, 07:17 PM

To respond to the critiques of my prediction all at once. By not too distant future, I am still talking about 2, 3, maybe 4-5 years. By then, technology delivery, memory, and download speeds will be where they need to be. Essentially, you will have what everyone already has, a set top box, but it's memory capacity will be huge. It will work much like an IPOD where you can save virtually your entire movie library. You will be able to rent or buy, and it will be a lot cheaper than buying Blu-Ray discs.

My point is that the general public will not be lining up to by Blu-Ray until that same time frame elapses, making Blu-Ray already a dead technology to most.

Vinatieri for Prez

02-19-2008, 07:18 PM

Why do you say this? If I download a movie, I pay for it each time I watch. If I buy it, I watch it for years to come.

I am suggesting the Netflix deal is the first link in the chain on the way to HD download purchases.

Vinatieri for Prez

02-19-2008, 07:19 PM

Vinatieri for Prez

02-19-2008, 07:20 PM

rowech

02-19-2008, 07:28 PM

I am suggesting the Netflix deal is the first link in the chain on the way to HD download purchases.

How are you going to store these things? Maybe I'm not seeing it but I can't see this happening anytime soon.

Groundhog

02-19-2008, 07:33 PM

Deattribution

02-19-2008, 07:59 PM

I have no idea about broadband over in the States, but is it really close to the point where downloading 20gig+ on a regular basis (say, a few times a month, if not more) is a reality for a lot of people?

I know that Australia's broadband is a mess compared to the rest of the world, but we really aren't very close to that right now unless something spectacular happens with our major telecoms company, which isn't likely.

20 gigs is still an insanely big download for just about everyone. I don't see it happening anytime within the next 10 years or more because you're talking about people not only getting whatever hardware they need to store, and download it but also getting the service and the internet to download it. It'll also be too much tech for most people. Why do all that when you can just buy a blu-ray player and whatever movies you want and have them forever like what people are already use to with vcr and dvd without concern of a crash or whatever else?

Travis

02-19-2008, 08:12 PM

It amazes me that at first the PS3 (and to an extent the 360) were derided for taking advantage of technology that is being slow to adopt (HDTV's), yet then you hear BR won't last because high def downloads will erase the need for the physical media (even though it'll just end up being a different sort of physical media storage).

Count me in the camp that believes BR will thrive for quite some time due to implementation/adoption of the techs required for downloads to surpass BR in the high def market.

Glengoyne

02-19-2008, 10:38 PM

As stated, a basic set top box will do all of this. But we're still talking several years out.

Blu-Ray will have its day for now, but its death is already on the horizon.

This is how I see it as well. Though I don't think it is all that dramatic of an opinion.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-19-2008, 10:57 PM

And in other news, it is being reported that is likely Microsoft will announce some sort of partnership with Netflix where the end game is that XBOX Live will be offering the Netflix catalog for direct to TV download of movies. Provided this gets to HD at some point, my prediction still stands this will start the inexorable march to the end of Blu-Ray at some point in the not to distant future.

FYI.......The Netflix deal is reportedly for both the PS3 and 360, not just the 360. Not sure why you stated that it was just for the 360 (Edit: I see the article you were referring to. Sony is in similar negotiations but has not announced anything yet). Sony has been exploring the option of unlimited movie downloads for a set monthly subscription price with Netflix or Blockbuster since last summer. This isn't new news at all.

Daimyo

02-19-2008, 11:39 PM

A lot of you guys are assuming the end user will be responsible for storing their hi-def movie download purchases. With Amazon Unbox once you purchase a video you can download as many times as you want so there is no need to store it... download it, watch it, and delete it. If you want to watch it again in the future, just re-download it. Unfortunately they don't do hi-def yet.

If the Netflix service is anything like it is for PC it won't even be pay per download but subscription based with a set number of hours of video watchable per month (unlimited on the PC right now FWIW).

Daimyo

02-19-2008, 11:45 PM

Blu-Ray will have its day for now, but its death is already on the horizon.
Question is how long is the window? Its losing ground from both ends... its not going to overtake DVD anytime soon and the technology to replace it is what 5 years out?

FIOS already offers 50 Mb/s download speeds... I doubt anyone actually gets that sort of throughput in practice, but even if you can get 25 Mb/s that would be fast enough to stream a 20GB, 2 hour movie.... is that sort of bandwidth going to be ubiquitous here in five years like it is now in Japan and South Korea? *shurg*

Eaglesfan27

02-20-2008, 08:12 AM

Question is how long is the window? Its losing ground from both ends... its not going to overtake DVD anytime soon and the technology to replace it is what 5 years out?

FIOS already offers 50 Mb/s download speeds... I doubt anyone actually gets that sort of throughput in practice, but even if you can get 25 Mb/s that would be fast enough to stream a 20GB, 2 hour movie.... is that sort of bandwidth going to be ubiquitous here in five years like it is now in Japan and South Korea? *shurg*

I was reading an article that stated over 30 million cable subscribers should have the technology to download HD videos for on demand viewing within the next year and perhaps as many sat subscribers as well.

FIOS definitely seems to be expanding rapidly and I wouldn't be surprised if it covers most of the major markets in 5 years.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-20-2008, 08:30 AM

I was reading an article that stated over 30 million cable subscribers should have the technology to download HD videos for on demand viewing within the next year and perhaps as many sat subscribers as well.

FIOS definitely seems to be expanding rapidly and I wouldn't be surprised if it covers most of the major markets in 5 years.

Having 30M people with access to that technology and having 30M people that actually use that technology are two totally different things. Mass adoption of HD on-demand at any level that would cause the 'death of Blu-ray' as VFP suggested will likely not occur for at least 10 years, if ever. There's still a vast majority of consumers that believe 'video on demand' should involve walking over to their shelf and inserting a disk into a media player.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 08:45 AM

The disk is 50GB, but you can fit a full length movie in 15-20GB.

Only the poor quality ones. Watch something like Apocalypto. Its got almost no special features and fills then entire BD50.

I don't know what disks your talking about, but I've got about 15 Blu-Ray movies, and all but one of them are BD-50s (not BD25s). Only "house of flying daggers" is in the 20g range, and thats because they didn't go back to the original master.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 08:49 AM

20 gigs is still an insanely big download for just about everyone. I don't see it happening anytime within the next 10 years or more because you're talking about people not only getting whatever hardware they need to store, and download it but also getting the service and the internet to download it. It'll also be too much tech for most people. Why do all that when you can just buy a blu-ray player and whatever movies you want and have them forever like what people are already use to with vcr and dvd without concern of a crash or whatever else?

The entire world will need to be rewired with fiber before this sort of stuff is even a possibility. It'll happen, but 10 years is about as soon as you can hope.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 08:50 AM

I was reading an article that stated over 30 million cable subscribers should have the technology to download HD videos for on demand viewing within the next year and perhaps as many sat subscribers as well.

Theres a big difference between HD on demand, and BluRay/HD-DVD. Theres a HUGE difference between broadcast quality HD and HD-Media (Hd-media has 5+x the bandwith)

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-20-2008, 09:38 AM

Toshiba took a cue from Vinatieri 4 Prez in their latest press release. Evidently they lost hundreds of millions of dollars fully knowing that their HD-DVD format would be short lived due to digital video downloads. In related news, this information comes from the same Toshiba PR division that screamed "All is well! All is well!" for the past year to anyone who would listen.........

http://www.current.com.au/2008/02/20/article/HXGEAZOXNF.html

Blu-ray could still lose HD video war: Toshiba
By Matthew Henry

SYDNEY: Toshiba claims that Sony’s victory in the high definition disc format war will be short lived due to the rise of HD digital video downloads over broadband, which the company claims was one of the key reason for abandoning HD DVD.

In a press conference this morning, Toshiba Australia general manager, Mark Whittard, said that while the US film and retail industries’ recent shift to support Blu-ray sealed HD DVD’s fate, other factors played a role in Toshiba’s abandonment of its high definition video disc business.

Whittard claims the penetration of both next generation disc formats is well below expectations while uptake of digital movie download services is accelerating, and could render HD discs redundant.

“We believe technology developments will soon leapfrog high definition discs, whether it be HD DVD or Blu-ray,” he claimed.

“This step is going to be leapfrogged by the next major format – digital content, internet downloads and video on demand.”

Whittard also identified DVD as a formidable competitor to Blu-ray.

According to figures quoted by Toshiba, total sales of HD movie discs reached a paltry $300 million last year compared to sales of over $23 billion for DVD discs.

Whittard claims Blu-ray will find it difficult to replace DVD in the same way DVD comprehensively replaced VHS.

Toshiba sold less than one million HD DVD players worldwide, and while Blu-ray has achieved higher penetration with the PS3, Whittard claims DVD will be “extremely difficult” for Blu-ray to overcome.

“DVD players still sell in their tens of millions worldwide today,” he said.

“DVD upscaling technology means you get near high definition quality, and to most people there is little discernable difference.”

However, while Toshiba is now moving towards a business model which will see it place more emphasis on other HD video delivery platforms, it has not ruled out joining the Blu-ray camp.

“You never say never, but at this stage there are no plans,” he said.

Toshiba's HD DVD players also have the potential for internet connectivity which gives them the potential to accept HD video streaming over ethernet connectivity, which could be utilised by the company in the future.

rowech

02-20-2008, 09:45 AM

Does one think this will be believed by the public? Why would you spend millions in a format you knew was going to not be important? Come on.

cartman

02-20-2008, 09:48 AM

Reading the article, it seems that the future digital download possibility might have been one of the reasons to include network connectivity in the HD-DVD spec.

The final line of the article:

Toshiba's HD DVD players also have the potential for internet connectivity which gives them the potential to accept HD video streaming over ethernet connectivity, which could be utilised by the company in the future.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 09:55 AM

Reading the article, it seems that the future digital download possibility might have been one of the reasons to include network connectivity in the HD-DVD spec.

The final line of the article:

Theres a huge difference between having internet connectivity and being able to play streamed media.

ALL of the HD-DVD players I've seen (and blu ray as well, barring the PS3/X360) don't have enough memory to do this.

Thats the writer speculating about technology he doesn't understand.

Aylmar

02-20-2008, 10:43 AM

The entire world will need to be rewired with fiber before this sort of stuff is even a possibility. It'll happen, but 10 years is about as soon as you can hope.

There is a ton of dark fiber in the US right now. The issue is the last mile, not the backbones and general network routes. Of course, you probably already knew this, but your statement above doesn't make that clear.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 10:54 AM

There is a ton of dark fiber in the US right now. The issue is the last mile, not the backbones and general network routes. Of course, you probably already knew this, but your statement above doesn't make that clear.

Right, but the last mile is exactly the problem, and its going to be a long time before 1) all that stuff is replaced, and 2) large percentages of people can afford extremely fast internet, and have large HDTVs. We're still at well less than 50% HDTV adoption rate, and your average internet user is still looking at less than 1.5mbps. We need 30mbps internet everywhere before this is even remotely feasible.

I'm not going to pay for Broadcast quality HD when Blu-Ray is SOOOO much nicer looking and sounding.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-20-2008, 11:00 AM

There is a ton of dark fiber in the US right now. The issue is the last mile, not the backbones and general network routes. Of course, you probably already knew this, but your statement above doesn't make that clear.

I'm sure you know this as well, but that's no different than the problems we have with current internet connections. DSL and cable internet speeds can vary wildly based on distance from central offices, number of users in an area, etc. The time that EF27 speaks of where people get the high and consistant speeds needed to send HD through to a large number of homes is still in the 10+ year future.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 11:06 AM

cable internet speeds can vary wildly based on distance from central offices, number of users in an area, etc.

My cable connection (6mbps IIRC) bogs down during peak times, and I get maybe 10% of my bandwith at max. Thats with users doing typical downloading/surfing/etc.

Think about how much bandwith we'll actually need when a large percentage of users are downloading 30gb files.

Aylmar

02-20-2008, 01:27 PM

I'm sure you know this as well, but that's no different than the problems we have with current internet connections. DSL and cable internet speeds can vary wildly based on distance from central offices, number of users in an area, etc. The time that EF27 speaks of where people get the high and consistant speeds needed to send HD through to a large number of homes is still in the 10+ year future.

Of course. I've heard from friends that have it that FiOS doesn't have that level of variance, though. DOCSIS 3.0 is coming, too, which should ease some of the congestion issues for the cable companies. MPEG-4 needs what, 2Mbs to give you damn good video quality on a stream? I just don't think it's as far away as you think. I'm not saying tomorrow or even next year, but 10+ years is an eternity in the Internet/broadband space.

BrianD

02-20-2008, 01:40 PM

I'm not going to pay for Broadcast quality HD when Blu-Ray is SOOOO much nicer looking and sounding.

You should realize that you are probably in the minority here. DVDs are currently outselling HD media by almost 2 orders of magnitude (if the article is correct). The general public is happy enough with DVD quality that they haven't jumped to HD yet. Now imagine the choices are Blu-Ray, or DVD quality movies on demand. With a decent selection, that will put a dent in HD media sales. Broadcast HD will give a small quality increase over DVD, and full HD (ala Blu-Ray) will give an even smaller quality increase.

Serving Blu-Ray quality over the internet is going to be a long way off, but serving DVD quality isn't nearly as far...and will be good enough for most of the viewing public.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-20-2008, 01:55 PM

Serving Blu-Ray quality over the internet is going to be a long way off, but serving DVD quality isn't nearly as far...and will be good enough for most of the viewing public.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. With that said, the distance between DVD and HD sales should close pretty rapidly. In Japan, where the format war has been all but over for a year, Blu-ray player sales now account for over 25% of all media player sales in the past month. That's a sharp rise from the 6% of all sales that BR players had in October of 2007. Similar jumps are predicted over the rest of 2008 now that the format war is finally resolved here in the U.S. The only reason that HD media hasn't seen similar growth in the U.S. is because of the format war. There's still going to be plenty of people that use DVD's or download, but there's going to be a pretty large surge in BR players as well, especially with the PS3 carrying a BR player.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 02:34 PM

Of course. I've heard from friends that have it that FiOS doesn't have that level of variance, though. DOCSIS 3.0 is coming, too, which should ease some of the congestion issues for the cable companies. MPEG-4 needs what, 2Mbs to give you damn good video quality on a stream? I just don't think it's as far away as you think. I'm not saying tomorrow or even next year, but 10+ years is an eternity in the Internet/broadband space.

Cable didn't have that variability 5-10 years ago. Then node populations wen't up. Its GREAT for FIOS users right now because their pipes are all empty, and no one else is in the way.

And no, the SOUND for blu-ray takes up more than 2Mbs on most disks. HD-DVD peaked at 30mbps and blu-ray can go up to 54Mbps. Disks with video rates in the 40s are here.

Arles

02-20-2008, 02:41 PM

As stated, a basic set top box will do all of this. But we're still talking several years out.

Blu-Ray will have its day for now, but its death is already on the horizon.
With this logic, CDs would be dead now with the advent of iTunes. There's always going to be a market for physical media - even if the equivalent of "iTunes for HD movies" appears in the next 2-3 years. Plus, there are people out there that have hundreds of DVDs in their collection, there's no conceivable future where you can store 100 HD DVDs on one box.

I think the only real competition for Blu-Ray disks would be the Amazon idea for HD discussed above. You buy a "license" for a movie on a player, then you can redownload and watch the movie whenever you like. Even then, it's a bit of a pain to redownload every time you want to watch it. With the price of Blu Ray movies going down, it's less of an issue (already dropped to $19.99 for some titles at retail stores). The option may end up being:

1. Buying a new Blu-Ray DVD for $15-25
OR
2. Buying an HD license online for $10-15.

Even given these options (4-5 years before they are even setup), I doubt a ton of people flock to option 2 because of the hassel/network/equipment required to handle it. Personally, I would gladly pay an extra $10 to have a hard-copy Blu Ray disk I could play on my PC or different TVs than just a license for one box I always have to watch it on. You'd end up being without most of your movie library if you travel/go to a friend's.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 02:42 PM

You should realize that you are probably in the minority here. DVDs are currently outselling HD media by almost 2 orders of magnitude (if the article is correct). The general public is happy enough with DVD quality that they haven't jumped to HD yet.

The same could be said of VHS->DVD ten years ago.

I felt the same way 2 or 3 months ago when I bought a PS3 (bought it because my DVD player broke). Popped in a copy of Ratatouille on BD, thought it looked great, then tried to watch a movie on DVD and just went HOLY CRAP, THIS LOOKS AWFUL.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 02:44 PM

With a decent selection, that will put a dent in HD media sales. Broadcast HD will give a small quality increase over DVD, and full HD (ala Blu-Ray) will give an even smaller quality increase.
DVD quality on-demand already IS available to the public. Its not cutting into DVD sales any.

"Broadcast HD will give a small quality increase over DVD"

Have you ever seen HD content?

Daimyo

02-20-2008, 02:58 PM

Even given these options (4-5 years before they are even setup), I doubt a ton of people flock to option 2 because of the hassel/network/equipment required to handle it. Personally, I would gladly pay an extra $10 to have a hard-copy Blu Ray disk I could play on my PC or different TVs than just a license for one box I always have to watch it on. You'd end up being without most of your movie library if you travel/go to a friend's.
Amazon Unbox isn't tied to a single device. You can have the content on two different devices at any given time and when you delete it from one device the license it used is freed up. Currently it only allows PCs and Tivos as viewing devices, but that's not a flaw in the model. if anyone can duplicate that model with Hi-def content and open it up to more devices it ould be huge. Netflix seems to be doing something similar with LG I don't think its HD either.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 03:01 PM

1. Buying a new Blu-Ray DVD for $15-25
OR
2. Buying an HD license online for $10-15..

As to these prices, I haven't paid over about $10 for a DVD in years. CDs are more expensive than DVDs. I have no question that in a couple years, blu-ray disks will be just as cheap. Its just simple economy of scale.

Aylmar

02-20-2008, 03:18 PM

And no, the SOUND for blu-ray takes up more than 2Mbs on most disks. HD-DVD peaked at 30mbps and blu-ray can go up to 54Mbps. Disks with video rates in the 40s are here.

You know as well as I do that data stream rates for the actual media are not relevant to this discussion. No one is talking about a world where a Blu-Ray player is running on one side of the network and you're watching the uncompressed Blu-Ray stream it provides over the Internet. It doesn't make sense and would only be desired by a very tiny portion of the market. If you want streams, that data stream is going to have to compressed at the source and then decompressed or converted back by some type of device inside your home. Will it be full Blu-Ray at that point? No. Will anyone other than really devoted audio and video guys care (because it WILL still be some type of HD - maybe even 1080p)? No. If they do, they download the full blown disk image. Let's say the channel bonding in DOCSIS 3 gives you a 20Mbs connection. Now we're talking pick a movie, go eat dinner, watch the movie in all it's glory when you are done. Two years down the road, it's even faster. Just my opinion, of course, but we haven't really reached a huge plateau in the ability to keep speeds going up...

BrianD

02-20-2008, 03:21 PM

The same could be said of VHS->DVD ten years ago.

It isn't the same comparison. The difference between VHS and DVD was much greater than the difference between DVD and HD. Also, VHS quality degraded each time it was watched while DVDs don't degrade with each viewing.

DVD quality on-demand already IS available to the public. Its not cutting into DVD sales any.

"Broadcast HD will give a small quality increase over DVD"

Have you ever seen HD content?

Of course I've seen HD content, and I love it. I would much prefer HD to DVD. However, upscaled DVD is not bad. Even on my 92" projected screen, I thoroughly enjoy upscaled DVDs, and on a side by side comparison, the difference between DVD and HD is noticeable, but not huge. I'm in the process of ripping all my DVDs to a PC for viewing on the projector. A streaming DVD service would give me the same solution without all the storage hassles. A set-top box that could handle streaming media would take the complexity out for normal movie-watchers too.

Also keep in mind that we here tend to be more technically savvy than the general public. HD penetration in American households is still small, and plenty of people still watch movies in a TV/room configuration where quality differences are even less noticeable.

Having said all of that, people still like to own things. That is going to be a tough thing to overcome.

SackAttack

02-20-2008, 03:25 PM

1. Buying a new Blu-Ray DVD for $15-25
OR
2. Buying an HD license online for $10-15.

It's all about when, where and how you buy. I'm averaging around $13 per disc on my Blu-ray collection right now, and that's either right at, or just shy of, three dozen movies.

stevew

02-20-2008, 03:32 PM

Having said all of that, people still like to own things. That is going to be a tough thing to overcome.

Yep, that sums it up in a nutshell.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 04:02 PM

It isn't the same comparison. The difference between VHS and DVD was much greater than the difference between DVD and HD.

And that I thoroughly disagree with.

Have you seen any of the early adopter DVDs? They're no better in quality than good VHS tapes. Worse than some VHS. The difference in DVD and HD is astounding. They're not even comparable. The colors are better, the sound is better, the picture is more clear, etc.

I took my PS3 over to my parents house (they watch movies on a 46" Sammy 1080p lcd). They had been watching upscaled DVDs. My MOM's immediate responce to blu-ray (ratatouille) was "holy crap"

Her initial responce to DVD was nowhere near as dramatic.

Synovia

02-20-2008, 04:20 PM

No one is talking about a world where a Blu-Ray player is running on one side of the network and you're watching the uncompressed Blu-Ray stream it provides over the Internet. It doesn't make sense and would only be desired by a very tiny portion of the market. If you want streams, that data stream is going to have to compressed at the source and then decompressed or converted back by some type of device inside your home.

The problem is, Blu-Ray, and HD-DVD already ARE compressed, most with VC-1, which is a very efficient compression codec. If you start compressing more, you start losing more quality, seeing more artifacts, etc.

BrianD

02-20-2008, 04:29 PM

And that I thoroughly disagree with.

If you can't agree with that, we probably aren't going to agree on anything.

Have you seen any of the early adopter DVDs? They're no better in quality than good VHS tapes. Worse than some VHS. The difference in DVD and HD is astounding. They're not even comparable. The colors are better, the sound is better, the picture is more clear, etc.

I was an early adopter of DVDs back before half of the movie studios were allowing their movies to be put on DVDs. There were some poor quality DVD transfers, but the vast majority of early DVDs weren't even close to VHS. And once again I am going to claim that you are in the minority with this opinion. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to claim that the incremental difference between DVD and HD was greater than that between VHS and DVD.

I took my PS3 over to my parents house (they watch movies on a 46" Sammy 1080p lcd). They had been watching upscaled DVDs. My MOM's immediate responce to blu-ray (ratatouille) was "holy crap"

Her initial responce to DVD was nowhere near as dramatic.

Isn't Ratatouille widely considered one of the best Blu-Ray discs available? You don't consider it disingenuous to talk about a bad early DVD transfer and a great Blu-Ray offering? If you went pack to your parent's house with a DVD of Ratatouille on DVD and told them you put the Blu-Ray in, do you think they would realize that you really didn't?

Arles

02-20-2008, 05:29 PM

It's all about when, where and how you buy. I'm averaging around $13 per disc on my Blu-ray collection right now, and that's either right at, or just shy of, three dozen movies.
yeah, the amazon deals are great. I was more talking about the "grab and go" retail price. And, in the 2-3 years it takes the download option to fully manifest in HD, I bet the Blu-Ray retail store price is often in the $15-25 range. At that point, it's a tough sell to have a download-only option make any real dent in Blu-Ray sales when the difference is only $5-10. Just like with iTunes to CDs, giving up the physical media isn't always worth the reduced price to people - and the comparison from iTunes to CDs with download to Blu-Ray is a much tougher case as the storage requirements are so much more intense.

Also the VCR-DVD to DVD-HD argument seems somewhat irrelevant. People want "the best they can afford". So, when Blu Ray players are in the $150-200 range and Blu Ray disks are in the $20 range, most people will start moving to it. It will be like HDTVs. There was much more of a difference between black-and-white to color than CRT to LCD/Plasma/DLP, yet a lot people are making the switch to HDTV as the prices go down. The same will happen with Blu Ray.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-21-2008, 10:30 AM

Blu-ray sales reportedly heavy after HD-DVD announcement........

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-player-sales-up-seven-fold?=35296

Blu-ray player sales up seven-fold

Play.com big-boss-man tells T3 that new Blu-ray punters have sky-rocketed, since the end of the format war.

Those cagey folk who refused to hedge their bets in Hi-Def Match showdown sure didn't waste much time once Toshiba closed the door on HD-DVD, this week.

Play's Stuart Rowe informs us that on VHD (Victory in Hi-Def) Day this Tuesday, the company sold more Blu-ray players than in the previous week combined.

"There was a seven fold increase in Blu-ray player sales, on that day alone." said the Chief Operating Officer.

"People have been waiting a long time to move into the Hi-Def era and now they have the confidence that this is going to be the format.

"Our cheapest player (The Samsung BD-P1400/XEU) is now £199 and you'd expect the prices to come down further as Sony try and build the brand. It's all great news for the consumer."

Play was among the first to react to Toshiba's white flag on Tuesday by knocking £40 off their cheapest HD-DVD player, making it just £79.99 - the first of what Stuart is predicting will be a slew of bargain basement offers.

"There's going to be a lot of great deals out there in the coming weeks. HD-DVD player prices will fall in line with DVD players with people now buying them more as great DVD players with the capacity for upscaling."

Don't expect to be finding too many HD-DVD flicks on the clearance stock shelves just yet however...

"There are no real plans for us to slash prices on the disks," says Stuart. "A lot of people have the players and collectors will keep buying them for the time being."

cartman

02-21-2008, 10:42 AM

Also the VCR-DVD to DVD-HD argument seems somewhat irrelevant. People want "the best they can afford". So, when Blu Ray players are in the $150-200 range and Blu Ray disks are in the $20 range, most people will start moving to it. It will be like HDTVs. There was much more of a difference between black-and-white to color than CRT to LCD/Plasma/DLP, yet a lot people are making the switch to HDTV as the prices go down. The same will happen with Blu Ray.

The big difference I see is that folks went out and bought DVD versions of the movies they had on VHS. I just don't see that happening with this generation of players, esp. since DVDs upscale on the players. Most people aren't going to buy a Blu-Ray version of a title that they already have on DVD.

Kodos

02-21-2008, 10:52 AM

We can look forward to George Lucas releasing 70 slightly different versions of Star Wars on Blu Ray now...

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-21-2008, 10:58 AM

The big difference I see is that folks went out and bought DVD versions of the movies they had on VHS. I just don't see that happening with this generation of players, esp. since DVDs upscale on the players. Most people aren't going to buy a Blu-Ray version of a title that they already have on DVD.

Most people continued to buy/use VHS for a few years after the introduction of DVD. It's no different. There are going to be some people that jump right in and some people that continue to use DVD's for some time. The adoption rate will continue to improve as HDTV's increase in number in households.

cartman

02-21-2008, 11:16 AM

Most people continued to buy/use VHS for a few years after the introduction of DVD. It's no different. There are going to be some people that jump right in and some people that continue to use DVD's for some time. The adoption rate will continue to improve as HDTV's increase in number in households.

Tapes degrade the more they are played. Discs do not. You couldn't play a VHS tape in a DVD player, but you can play a DVD in a Blu-Ray player, with a likely better picture than your existing DVD player. It is an incredibly different scenario.

I'm not discussing adoption rate, I'm discussing library conversion. For people with a significant investment in DVD titles, they simply aren't going to re-buy everything in Blu-Ray, as was eventually the case from VHS to DVD.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-21-2008, 11:29 AM

Tapes degrade the more they are played. Discs do not. You couldn't play a VHS tape in a DVD player, but you can play a DVD in a Blu-Ray player, with a likely better picture than your existing DVD player. It is an incredibly different scenario.

I'm not discussing adoption rate, I'm discussing library conversion. For people with a significant investment in DVD titles, they simply aren't going to re-buy everything in Blu-Ray, as was eventually the case from VHS to DVD.

I personally didn't rebuy any of my old VHS movies. I just copied them onto DVD's. I think your response to this would be that people won't copy DVD's onto BR discs and I'd certainly agree with that. But I'll be buying all future releases on BR. With the constant sales on Amazon, it's not all that expensive to do.

Synovia

02-21-2008, 12:40 PM

The big difference I see is that folks went out and bought DVD versions of the movies they had on VHS. I just don't see that happening with this generation of players, esp. since DVDs upscale on the players.

Upscaling doesn't do ANYTHING. ANY HDTV will upscale any content you put on it. Moving the upscaling to the player may lead to minor increases in quality, but its still 480i content, and you can't change that.

Take a look at the Fifth Element. Its widely considered a reference quality DVD. Upscaled it looks good. Now slap in the blu-ray (standard quality, not even that high). The differences are drastic.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/adzez/DVD/83eb4042.png

Synovia

02-21-2008, 12:44 PM

damnit, the VC-1 file got taken down...let me see if I can find another

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872094&highlight=fifth+element&page=12

That thread has good stuff. You can see clear difference in a 10 year old film in a reference quality DVD, and a decent blu-ray

cartman

02-21-2008, 01:23 PM

Blu-ray sales reportedly heavy after HD-DVD announcement........

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-player-sales-up-seven-fold?=35296

Again, they seem to be stuck in "ratios". From the article, it said there was a seven-fold increase in the number of players. From 10,000 to 70,000 is impressive. From 100 to 700, not so much. When are they going to start releasing true numbers, instead of ratios and percentages?

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-22-2008, 08:13 AM

Interesting article about the players in the HD format war and their motivations. Article goes pretty in-depth discussing how Microsoft actually pushed Toshiba to continue with the format when Toshiba was ready to shut down HD-DVD in 2005. Also discusses that Microsoft, not Toshiba, was the agressive marketer with the intent to slow down the adoption of Blu-ray as the standard format.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/

Another article from 2 years ago detailing the Sony suspicion that MS had alterior motives in supporting HD-DVD.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2005/tc2005106_9074_tc024.htm

Daimyo

02-22-2008, 11:45 AM

Interesting article about the players in the HD format war and their motivations. Article goes pretty in-depth discussing how Microsoft actually pushed Toshiba to continue with the format when Toshiba was ready to shut down HD-DVD in 2005. Also discusses that Microsoft, not Toshiba, was the agressive marketer with the intent to slow down the adoption of Blu-ray as the standard format.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/

Wow... talk about a biased article (and it doesn't even bother to list sources). I almost stopped reading at this

None of these efforts hid the reality that Microsoft wanted to simply duplicate in media what it had done to the PC desktop: copy existing technology, add proprietary hooks, and then sit back and tax the industry with software fees without adding any value. (my bold)

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-22-2008, 12:32 PM

Wow... talk about a biased article (and it doesn't even bother to list sources). I almost stopped reading at this

None of these efforts hid the reality that Microsoft wanted to simply duplicate in media what it had done to the PC desktop: copy existing technology, add proprietary hooks, and then sit back and tax the industry with software fees without adding any value.

(my bold)

You want to explain what part of that comment isn't accurate? That's Microsoft's MO perfectly stated. It's a very profitable MO, I might add.

Fidatelo

02-22-2008, 12:50 PM

I think it's pretty hard to argue that MS has not added any value to the PC desktop...

Daimyo

02-22-2008, 01:20 PM

You want to explain what part of that comment isn't accurate? That's Microsoft's MO perfectly stated. It's a very profitable MO, I might add.
If you believe that Microsoft has not added any value in the desktop market then we simply lack any common ground for a rational discussion and it would simply be a waste of time to try to have one. *shurg*

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-22-2008, 01:27 PM

I think it's pretty hard to argue that MS has not added any value to the PC desktop...

Well, if the quibble is using the word 'any' rather than 'much', I'll agree with that. Either way, Microsoft and internally-developed innovative products just don't go together.

Eaglesfan27

02-22-2008, 02:08 PM

If you believe that Microsoft has not added any value in the desktop market then we simply lack any common ground for a rational discussion and it would simply be a waste of time to try to have one. *shurg*

Welcome to the club.

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-22-2008, 02:15 PM

Welcome to the club.

Please, do rattle off the expansive list of innovative products that Microsoft has designed in-house without cannabalizing other companies ideas/products.

Daimyo

02-22-2008, 02:43 PM

Please, do rattle off the expansive list of innovative products that Microsoft has designed in-house without cannabalizing other companies ideas/products.
That's not the point you made earlier. Sure Microsoft takes ideas from other companies. Guess what? Every successful company does that.

How many companies has Oracle purchased in the last year? 43? 44? Symantec? EMC? They all do it. Do you really want a world where one company innovates and then no one else builds on that? You want every company to build everything from scratch? That's just not realistic or productive.

The point is that Microsoft does add value. They add a ton of value and that's why they've been so successful.

What operating system(s) do you use most? What office productivity software do you use most?

cartman

02-22-2008, 02:49 PM

MS has licensed tons of technology, but instead of licensing and sitting on it, they have improved and expanded the technology in-house. Numerous examples exist of them purchasing a small, niche company and bringing the product into the mainstream. To name a few:

Flight Simulator
SQL Server
FrontPage
PowerPoint
Access
DirectX
IE
Intellimice
Natural Keyboards
Visual Basic/C++

These were improved and expanded by the in-house developers at Microsoft. It's just smart business if it is cheaper to buy a company that has already started developing a concept you are interested in versus starting your own initiative completely from scratch.

Arles

02-22-2008, 05:10 PM

This "true innovation" vs "making practical products from other ideas" argument is always a lost cause. There's very few instances of true innovation in any major company - mostly because they lack the time/desire to really focus on "pie in the sky" ideas. Just look at the Playstation. Everyone thinks it was some brain-child of Kuturagi. When, in essence, the original playstation started as a CD-ROM add-on for the Super Nintendo. Nintendo backed out on Sony after most of the dev work was done, so Sony went ahead and finished up the Add-on as the PS1. Was that true innovation by Sony? Or was that similar to what Gates did with QDOS to DOS?

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-27-2008, 09:14 AM

Looks like Profile 2.0 Blu-ray players should be plentiful by June 2008. Sony announces their first 2.0-ready player..........

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=12178

Panasonic also plans on a May release for their first 2.0 player.

cartman

02-27-2008, 10:13 AM

So Blu-Ray finally gets the some of the features HD-DVD had since launch.

Aylmar

02-27-2008, 10:16 AM

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-27-2008, 11:07 AM

Isn't the PS3 a technically 2.0 ready player? It meets all the requirements, right? Or did you mean first stand-alone?

Yes, I meant the first stand-alone 2.0 ready players. You are correct that the PS3 is fully upgradable to 2.0.

Synovia

02-27-2008, 11:10 AM

So Blu-Ray finally gets the some of the features HD-DVD had since launch.

Yeah, those same features that nobody (outside fanboys on either side) gives a shit about. Nobody cares that a movie can connect to the internet. They want to watch the movie.

cartman

02-27-2008, 11:54 AM

Yeah, those same features that nobody (outside fanboys on either side) gives a shit about. Nobody cares that a movie can connect to the internet. They want to watch the movie.

So why even bother adding it to the 2.0 spec and announcing it then?

Mizzou B-ball fan

02-27-2008, 12:40 PM

So why even bother adding it to the 2.0 spec and announcing it then?

To satisfy the very small group of video geeks who do care. It's a good feature......it's just one that very few consumers will actual use or even care about. As Synovia said, it's a great argument point for a fanboy catfight, but it's not all that relevant in the grand scheme of things.

Daimyo

02-27-2008, 02:54 PM

Kind of like all that additional storage BR has (compared to HDDVD) that movies don't need?

Synovia

02-27-2008, 03:42 PM

Kind of like all that additional storage BR has (compared to HDDVD) that movies don't need?

I remember people saying that same stuff about DVD, and it not being needed.

I've got several movies on BD50 disks, that are 35+GB, and they all look great. .. better than any of the HD-DVD stuff I've seen.

That extra space is being used for a reason. Could the movie be compressed to 25gb? Sure, but why would you want it to be??

Daimyo

02-27-2008, 07:07 PM

BrianD

02-27-2008, 10:25 PM

I was a relatively early adopter of DVD and I don't remember anyone saying the additional space wasn't needed! If anything the space was limiting from the start! You don't remember multiple versions of DVDs with different audio tracks (DTS vs DD) because they couldn't both on a disc?

If you want to make the argument that BR has better picture quality than HDDVD, you're welcome to. You won't find a single non-biased person to back you up on that though. *shurg*

I'll back you up on this one. As another fairly early adopter, I remember movies having to be split across both side of a DVD because the dual-layer technology wasn't ready initially. There were often compromises made on the amount of extras because there just wasn't much room if the DVD transfer was done at all well. The best DVDs were the ones where the transfer technicians took enough time to tweak the compression levels of different scenes for the best outcome. There has never been an over abundance of space on a DVD.

Neon_Chaos

02-27-2008, 11:28 PM

HD-DVD = Betamax

stevew

02-27-2008, 11:33 PM

Betamax was way more popular than hddvd. HDDVD is more like Minidisc or the Digital compact cassette, or some other stupid format that nobody adopted, at least on the content sales arena.

stevew

02-27-2008, 11:34 PM

HDDVD=CDI....maybe a more apt comparison.

BrianD

02-28-2008, 08:28 AM

I kind of thought that HD-DVD was like VHS, but this time Betamax won the war. Like VHS, HD-DVD was cheaper to work with, more accessible to the masses, but technically inferior. Blu-Ray was more tightly a product of one company, was more expensive to work with, but a technically superior technology.

Fidatelo

02-28-2008, 08:30 AM

HDDVD = Laserdisc

Synovia

02-28-2008, 12:31 PM

HDDVD = Laserdisc
They sold laserdiscs for 25 years. Thats not going to happen with HD-DVD

Synovia

02-28-2008, 12:34 PM

I was a relatively early adopter of DVD and I don't remember anyone saying the additional space wasn't needed! If anything the space was limiting from the start! You don't remember multiple versions of DVDs with different audio tracks (DTS vs DD) because they couldn't both on a disc?

If you want to make the argument that BR has better picture quality than HDDVD, you're welcome to. You won't find a single non-biased person to back you up on that though. *shurg*

Its got more space. That means less compression, and better picture, especially for longer movies. Theres very little exact comparisons to make because most of the movies that are on both formats were cut for HD-DVD and copied to Blu-Ray, at under 25gb.

Blu-Ray allows higher bitrate, for both video and sound. That means less compression. Less compression is ALWAYS better, especially when you're dealing with movement.

Fidatelo

02-28-2008, 01:15 PM

They sold laserdiscs for 25 years. Thats not going to happen with HD-DVD

They sold Laserdiscs for 25 years? Who the heck was buying them? I'm confused :confused:

Daimyo

02-28-2008, 01:40 PM

Its got more space. That means less compression, and better picture, especially for longer movies. Theres very little exact comparisons to make because most of the movies that are on both formats were cut for HD-DVD and copied to Blu-Ray, at under 25gb.

Blu-Ray allows higher bitrate, for both video and sound. That means less compression. Less compression is ALWAYS better, especially when you're dealing with movement.

Do you also think mp3s sound better encoded at 512 compared to 384?

Most of the Blu Ray discs encoded at high bitrates (higher than HDDVD can handle) are encoded in mpeg2 and not mpeg4 which is not nearly as efficient. Its true that all things being equal higher bitrates are better, but its also true that there is a point at which it becomes academic because no one can actually tell the difference and also that all things are rarely equal. There was absolutely no difference between Blu Ray and HDDVD for video quality. Blu Ray has more storage space than HDDVD, but that doesn't help it have better quality video. It may leave more room for extras, but the DVD market showed that that is meaningless since you can always add a second disc and market it as a "two disc special edition".

dervack

02-28-2008, 01:44 PM

Do you also think mp3s sound better encoded at 512 compared to 384?

Most of the Blu Ray discs encoded at high bitrates (higher than HDDVD can handle) are encoded in mpeg2 and not mpeg4 which is not nearly as efficient. Its true that all things being equal higher bitrates are better, but its also true that there is a point at which it becomes academic because no one can actually tell the difference and also that all things are rarely equal. There was absolutely no difference between Blu Ray and HDDVD for video quality. Blu Ray has more storage space than HDDVD, but that doesn't help it have better quality video.
Doesn't everybody? ;)

cartman

04-07-2008, 01:40 PM

Synovia

04-07-2008, 01:45 PM

Do you also think mp3s sound better encoded at 512 compared to 384?

Most of the Blu Ray discs encoded at high bitrates (higher than HDDVD can handle) are encoded in mpeg2 and not mpeg4 which is not nearly as efficient.

I dunno, most of the big ones I have are VC-1 or AVC. Very few are mpeg2.

"Do you also think mp3s sound better encoded at 512 compared to 384"
Stereo? no. 5.1 channel? hell yes.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-07-2008, 02:18 PM

It appears that the crack pipe is getting passed around the Sony HQ again. They are claiming that Blu-Ray will be 50% of disc sales by the end of this year. I also don't quite buy their statement that 1 in 5 discs currently sold are Blu-Ray.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20080407PD201.html

That 20% is probably high for worldwide sales. The U.S is currently the lowest percentage of the three major regions, with Blu-ray currently holding between 8-10% of total disc sales in the U.S. Both Japan and PAL territories are much further along in Blu-ray adoption due to their format war being over for nearly a year. Japan is the furthest along of the three regions, with Blu-ray holding 18-20% of the total market. PAL territories run around 15% currently.

Ryan S

04-07-2008, 02:54 PM

Both Japan and PAL territories are much further along in Blu-ray adoption due to their format war being over for nearly a year. ..... PAL territories run around 15% currently.

I am sure that can not be right. HDTV in Europe is some distance behind the USA, and blu ray disks have only recently become readily available in stores here. Quite frankly, I would be surprised if blu ray and HDDVD combined made up 5% of the UK disk sales market.

The first HDTV channels started over here in summer 2006, and I imagine it arrived in the rest of Europe at around the same time.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-08-2008, 09:10 AM

SCEE engineers talk about the Blu-ray updates in the PS3 2.20 upgrade........

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1145651#post1145651

darkenigma510

04-08-2008, 12:32 PM

Ryan S

04-09-2008, 04:24 PM

Well if you were a BluRay Player owner, I think most of your new purchases would be BlueRay not DVD.

I am not so sure. If you have a standalone Blu-Ray player it is likely that most of your new purchases will be Blu-Ray, but the majority of Blu-Ray owners have the PS3. There will be a number of PS3 owners that do not own an HDTV, and an even larger number that do not want to spend $50 (UK instore price) on a Blu-Ray disk when they can get the DVD for a fraction of the cost.

cartman

04-09-2008, 04:29 PM

Well if you were a BluRay Player owner, I think most of your new purchases would be BlueRay not DVD.

even so, that is a huge stretch to think that it will hit 50% of disc sales by the end of this year, considering the install base of Blu-Ray players is less than 10 million worldwide, and there are hundreds of millions of active DVD players out there.

Eaglesfan27

04-09-2008, 04:31 PM

Well if you were a BluRay Player owner, I think most of your new purchases would be BlueRay not DVD.

Unless Blu-Ray discs can be played on DVD players, my wife has made it clear that most of our purchases will be DVD's even after she gets me a PS3. She wants to be able to take movies to friend's houses and most of them do not have Blu-Ray players, nor are they getting one any time soon.

Synovia

04-09-2008, 04:43 PM

[quote=cartman;1702502]even so, that is a huge stretch to think that it will hit 50% of disc sales by the end of this year, considering the install base of Blu-Ray players is less than 10 million worldwide, and there are hundreds of millions of active DVD players out there.

There were 10.5 Million PS3s sold as of january 1st, 2008, so I have a hard time there are less than 10Million installed blu-ray players now, in April 2008.

"There will be a number of PS3 owners that do not own an HDTV,"

Seriously? For real? I, for one, have never met one. It seems to be a collosal waste of money. When confined to 480p, the PS3 really doesn't have much over the Ps2, and gets its ass kicked all over the place by the Wii.

Synovia

04-09-2008, 04:44 PM

Unless Blu-Ray discs can be played on DVD players, my wife has made it clear that most of our purchases will be DVD's even after she gets me a PS3. She wants to be able to take movies to friend's houses and most of them do not have Blu-Ray players, nor are they getting one any time soon.

has your wife watched any blu-ray? My mom said the exact same thing, until I let her borrow a stack of blu-ray movies and my ps3 for a weekend.

Since I bought my PS3, I've bought 3 DVDs (Rainman $4.99, Hotel Rwanda $4.99, Matrix 3 $1.99). I think I've bought 10 or 11 Blu-Rays. I haven't paid more than $15 for any of them.

Eaglesfan27

04-09-2008, 04:51 PM

has your wife watched any blu-ray? My mom said the exact same thing, until I let her borrow a stack of blu-ray movies and my ps3 for a weekend.

Since I bought my PS3, I've bought 3 DVDs (Rainman $4.99, Hotel Rwanda $4.99, Matrix 3 $1.99). I think I've bought 10 or 11 Blu-Rays. I haven't paid more than $15 for any of them.

No, and it's possible she'll change her tune once we get a few and she sees them. Then again, she often goes to her best friend's house and watches movies there. Her BF is poor and won't have Blu-Ray for a very long time, if she ever does. I'll probably get a PS3 this upcoming Christmas as there finally should be enough exclusives out that I want to make it worthwhile. I guess we'll see if she changes her tune after seeing a few Blu-Ray movies as I'm sure I'll pick up a few of my favorites.

gstelmack

04-09-2008, 05:20 PM

Seriously? For real? I, for one, have never met one. It seems to be a collosal waste of money. When confined to 480p, the PS3 really doesn't have much over the Ps2, and gets its ass kicked all over the place by the Wii.

You might be surprised at how many 360/PS3 owners have theirs hooked up to an SDTV until they decide to buy the upgrade...

Kodos

04-09-2008, 05:24 PM

You might be surprised at how many 360/PS3 owners have theirs hooked up to an SDTV until they decide to buy the upgrade...

I own both, but regretably do not have an HDTV yet. Synovia is probably embarassed for me.

stevew

04-09-2008, 05:51 PM

I know several people with 360's/PS3's and non HDTV's.

cartman

04-09-2008, 06:16 PM

There were 10.5 Million PS3s sold as of january 1st, 2008, so I have a hard time there are less than 10Million installed blu-ray players now, in April 2008.

Ok. The last figure I'd heard was that PS3s were approaching 10 million sold worldwide. Even so, the difference between that number and the number I quoted is a rounding error compared to the number of DVD players in use worldwide.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-10-2008, 06:36 AM

New software coming out for the PS3 that will allow the iPhone to be used as both a PS3 Blu-ray remote and will also allow copying of digital movie copies on Blu-ray movie discs to the iPhone for portable viewing. Similar software for video iPods is also expected.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=20929&pagtype=allchandate

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-10-2008, 06:40 AM

There were 10.5 Million PS3s sold as of january 1st, 2008, so I have a hard time there are less than 10Million installed blu-ray players now, in April 2008.

Correct. Current PS3 sales worldwide are just under 12 million units. Stand alone players worldwide are approximately 3-3.5 million units, so a rough total for installed base is 15 million units.

cartman

04-10-2008, 08:21 AM

Correct. Current PS3 sales worldwide are just under 12 million units. Stand alone players worldwide are approximately 3-3.5 million units, so a rough total for installed base is 15 million units.

So, given that figure of 15 million BR units, and a reported 1 billion DVD players sold worldwide, I still don't see how Sony is projecting that BR discs will be 50% of the worldwide market by year's end. Even if 60% of the DVD players ever sold are not used anymore, Sony adds another 10 million to the install base over the next 9 months, and every PS3 is used for BR, not just game playing, that means that for every DVD title sold per DVD unit, there will have to be 8 BR discs sold per PS3 unit. And that is best case scenario, with guesstimates favorable to Sony.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-10-2008, 09:31 AM

So, given that figure of 15 million BR units, and a reported 1 billion DVD players sold worldwide, I still don't see how Sony is projecting that BR discs will be 50% of the worldwide market by year's end. Even if 60% of the DVD players ever sold are not used anymore, Sony adds another 10 million to the install base over the next 9 months, and every PS3 is used for BR, not just game playing, that means that for every DVD title sold per DVD unit, there will have to be 8 BR discs sold per PS3 unit. And that is best case scenario, with guesstimates favorable to Sony.

I don't disagree (they won't have 50% of the market by year-end), but you didn't need to throw out installed base numbers that were off by 50% to prove your point.

Synovia

04-10-2008, 09:44 AM

I own both, but regretably do not have an HDTV yet. Synovia is probably embarassed for me.

Not embarrassed, I just think its a collosal waste of money.

Synovia

04-10-2008, 09:48 AM

So, given that figure of 15 million BR units, and a reported 1 billion DVD players sold worldwide, I still don't see how Sony is projecting that BR discs will be 50% of the worldwide market by year's end. Even if 60% of the DVD players ever sold are not used anymore, Sony adds another 10 million to the install base over the next 9 months, and every PS3 is used for BR, not just game playing, that means that for every DVD title sold per DVD unit, there will have to be 8 BR discs sold per PS3 unit. And that is best case scenario, with guesstimates favorable to Sony.

Well, IIRC, DVD sales have been dropping off considerably over the last 2 years, so I wouldn't find it all that surprising to see people jump ship reasonably quickly.

Worldwide, I'd be shocked. But 50% of the US market? Its a stretch, but I wouldn't be all that surprised.

cartman

04-10-2008, 10:16 AM

I don't disagree (they won't have 50% of the market by year-end), but you didn't need to throw out installed base numbers that were off by 50% to prove your point.

Even if I was off by 100% on my installed base number of BR players, it still supports my point that the difference is still a rounding error compared to the DVD install base.

gstelmack

04-10-2008, 10:23 AM

I don't disagree (they won't have 50% of the market by year-end), but you didn't need to throw out installed base numbers that were off by 50% to prove your point.

Large percentage errors are easy to come by when talking about small numbers.

It's like how people panicked around here in Raleigh (I believe it was) because we had more than DOUBLE the number of murders in the first quarter of this year compared to last. SEVEN people had been killed in the first 3 months of this year instead of the 3 during the same people last year.

Eaglesfan27

04-10-2008, 10:25 AM

Large percentage errors are easy to come by when talking about small numbers.

It's like how people panicked around here in Raleigh (I believe it was) because we had more than DOUBLE the number of murders in the first quarter of this year compared to last. SEVEN people had been killed in the first 3 months of this year instead of the 3 during the same people last year.

Not to go too astray in this thread, but only 7.. Wow. I think we had at least that many people killed in New Orleans in each week of the year of 04.

gstelmack

04-10-2008, 10:33 AM

Not to go too astray in this thread, but only 7.. Wow. I think we had at least that many people killed in New Orleans in each week of the year of 04.

It's a great place to live. Except for the tyrannical school board, I love it here :D

cartman

04-10-2008, 10:40 AM

Some hard figures to support my point:

The 9 millionth BR disc was sold sometime during the week of March 16th, 2008:
http://www.showbizdata.com/news/46448/BLURAY-SALES-PASS-9MILLION-MARK

There were 7 separate DVD titles that were released during 2007 that sold more than 9 million copies apiece, and 5 of those titles were released in Q4 of 2007:

http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/annual/2007.php

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-10-2008, 11:00 AM

Large percentage errors are easy to come by when talking about small numbers.

It's like how people panicked around here in Raleigh (I believe it was) because we had more than DOUBLE the number of murders in the first quarter of this year compared to last. SEVEN people had been killed in the first 3 months of this year instead of the 3 during the same people last year.

We'll just assume he was using old numbers. Obviously Raleigh has their own problems.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-10-2008, 12:28 PM

More credits coming for those who purchased a HD-DVD player. This time, it's at Amazon.......

Dear Amazon.com Customer, As someone who purchased an HD DVD player from us before February 23, 2008,* you might like to hear about a special offer available from Amazon.com.New technologies don’t always work out as planned. We at Amazon.com value our customer relationships more than anything and would like to support customers who purchased these players by offering a credit good for $50 off any products sold by Amazon.com.**

The code is valid through April 9, 2009, so you have plenty of time to use your credit. Purchases from third-party merchants on our site are not eligible.

Pumpy Tudors

04-10-2008, 12:42 PM

Not to go too astray in this thread, but only 7.. Wow. I think we had at least that many people killed in New Orleans in each week of the year of 04.
Yep, I remember that. I'll admit that that's one thing I don't miss about New Orleans.

Lorena

04-26-2008, 06:09 PM

Well, our dvd player busted and we will now be purchasing a PS3. Not for games, but for blue-ray dvd movies.

Flasch186

04-26-2008, 09:26 PM

Well, our dvd player busted and we will now be purchasing a PS3. Not for games, but for blue-ray dvd movies.

good idea. I love mine.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-28-2008, 08:50 AM

Looks like some reasonably prices stand-alone players are on the way. Samsung has a new player coming in June that will be $399 and will be version 2.0 ready with an ethernet port. We'll have to see if this is the stand-alone player that's finally able to match the PS3's loading speed.

http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.php?id=23

MizzouRah

04-28-2008, 08:53 AM

Honestly.. who would pay $399 for a stand-alone player when you can get a ps3 for the same price?

wade moore

04-28-2008, 08:58 AM

What is different about version 2.0?

In the next 6 months blu-ray or not to blu-ray will become an important question for me.

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-28-2008, 09:04 AM

What is different about version 2.0?

In the next 6 months blu-ray or not to blu-ray will become an important question for me.

2.0 is also know as BD Live. Basically, it's the ability for the player to download content to your player from the internet. For example, if you're watching Rambo, it would download trailers for Predator and Alien and show them in your menu as options. Also, they have stuff like quiz games about the movie you're watching.

Honestly, most of the options even in 2.0 won't be used by the vast majority of the people, but it's best to make sure you have a player that is 2.0 compatible and has an ethernet or Wifi connection. You'll have all of the options available as long as you do that. The main difference right now to be concerned about is disc load times. The PS3 is superior to any stand-alone players as far as load times right now. When you decide to buy, that should be one of the main things that you look for.

wade moore

04-28-2008, 09:12 AM

Is the PS3 2.0?

Mizzou B-ball fan

04-28-2008, 09:15 AM

Is the PS3 2.0?

Yes. It's considered the best BR player at this point, even better than some of its more expensive counterparts. It's fully upgradable with the internet/Wifi connection and currently has faster loading times than any of the stand-alone players.

wade moore

04-28-2008, 09:20 AM

Yes. It's considered the best BR player at this point, even better than some of its more expensive counterparts. It's fully upgradable with the internet/Wifi connection and currently has faster loading times than any of the stand-alone players.
Gotcha.

When it comes time I may seriously consider this option, although if the Netflix/Xbox360 tie happens and it has HD content it may negate any need for a Blu-Ray player.

For reference - I've got a contract on a new house. When I move in I have money set aside for TV, Home Audio, etc - I've been living with a 27" old no-name-brand TV for years and have a 19" HD LCD for my XBOX right now.

So - upgrading my home movie experience will become a priority.