I'm tired of hearing that teachers are underpaid

[st.cronin]

Just noticed this ... the schedule that I asked this girl, a college freshman, to type up, included this note:

"if you can not come in or are goin to be late, plz let me now. also if you need a day of you are scheduled, let me know.

thx"

Is she kidding?

[Raiders Army]

pix pls, k thx

[MJ4H]

I have to echo the pics request because I have no idea what else is going on in this thread.

[GoldenEagle]

I need the Flasch v. 1.24 translator please.

[Shkspr]

I think cronin is laboring under the misapprehension that teachers have the magical ability to MAKE people use correct grammar and spelling.

[MJ4H]

That's all I could make of it, too.

[Poli]

I'd edit this for truthiness, but I wouldn't know where to start. ;)

[King of New York]

How do you know that it's her teachers' fault that she cannot spell?

Maybe they taught her well, and she never bothered to learn because she is lazy. Or maybe she is just dumb as a stick.

Of the three individuals involved in the learning process (student, parent, teacher), the teacher has by far the smallest role in determining the outcome.

[st.cronin]

By the way she is a stone fox.

[Raiders Army]

I say again:

pix pls, k thx

[st.cronin]

How do you know that it's her teachers' fault that she cannot spell?

Maybe they taught her well, and she never bothered to learn because she is lazy. Or maybe she is just dumb as a stick.

Of the three individuals involved in the learning process (student, parent, teacher), the teacher has by far the smallest role in determining the outcome.

Ok, then I'm right, teachers aren't overpaid.

[Glengoyne]

Nah, It's probably an administrator's fault. Probably not allowing the teachers to actually fail anyone.

Well either that or she had all male teachers, and all of them simply passed her along 'cause she is hawt.

[Poli]

Nah, It's probably an administrator's fault. Probably not allowing the teachers to actually fail anyone.


Edited for truthiness. At least that's the Navy's main problem at my schoolhouse.

[rowech]

At least in the state of Ohio, even on our graduation tests, spelling does not count. Instead, essays are graded on content. So at least in Ohio, in a way, it's directed by the state.

[wade moore]

I was all ready to come out fightin' like I did with Edwards64 in a thread awhile ago, but... I also cannot understand what st. cronin's point is.

[Raiders Army]

Edited for truthiness. At least that's the Navy's main problem at my schoolhouse.

Truthiness. Word of the year!

[st.cronin]

I was all ready to come out fightin' like I did with Edwards64 in a thread awhile ago, but... I also cannot understand what st. cronin's point is.

I blame my teachers.

[Poli]

Truthiness. Word of the year!

I've been using it like it's going out of style.

[wade moore]

I blame my teachers.
:D

[MJ4H]

I've been using it like it's going out of style.

It is definitely doing that.

[Tekneek]

Just noticed this ... the schedule that I asked this girl, a college freshman, to type up, included this note:

"if you can not come in or are goin to be late, plz let me now. also if you need a day of you are scheduled, let me know.

thx"

Is she kidding?

What school is she attending?

[st.cronin]

What school is she attending?

Colorado

[clintl]

You should be blaming the cell phone industry, not teachers, for her spelling.

[flere-imsaho]

...and her prematurely arthritic thumbs.

[Tekneek]

You should be blaming the cell phone industry, not teachers, for her spelling.

So the cell phone industry is teaching people how to communicate now? People can't figure out when to turn off "sms-speak" and use real english by the time they enter university?

[Barkeep49]

Actually peers are teaching each other how to communicate due to the commonplace nature of instant messaging and so I blame her peers.

[stevew]

I'm awaiting rkmsuf's contribution to this thread.

[LoneStarGirl]

This is my first semester as a teacher and at Central High School in Little Rock (remember the little rock 9?) any teacher that has 25% of her students with a D or F gets severly repremanded and called out on at the end of the 9 week faculty staff meetings.Also, if the kid is 504, which basically means they have a learning disability, you aren't allowed to fail them. MY first nine weeks teaching I had a student who had a 7% because he refused to do any work at all. He just brought his calculator and played games on it all class. But the head of the math department and his assistant principal told me I had to pass him or the school would get sued and I would get fired.

[Shkspr]

MY first nine weeks teaching I had a student who had a 7% because he refused to do any work at all. He just brought his calculator and played games on it all class. But the head of the math department and his assistant principal told me I had to pass him or the school would get sued and I would get fired.

Clearly the answer, then, is to pass a law that says that anyone who sues the school district over being failed must employ a lawyer for the task who received similar marks (in this case 7%) on his exams at law school.
Problem solved. After all, if the answer is to pass them anyway, they must be qualified for those tasks.

[Young Drachma]

I overheard a mother at Fazoli's last night whining to her daughter about how text messaging is destroying conversation and language. I didn't realize that the paranoia brigade was complaining about this now, too.

[Joe]

This is my first semester as a teacher and at Central High School in Little Rock (remember the little rock 9?) any teacher that has 25% of her students with a D or F gets severly repremanded and called out on at the end of the 9 week faculty staff meetings.Also, if the kid is 504, which basically means they have a learning disability, you aren't allowed to fail them. MY first nine weeks teaching I had a student who had a 7% because he refused to do any work at all. He just brought his calculator and played games on it all class. But the head of the math department and his assistant principal told me I had to pass him or the school would get sued and I would get fired.

Was he learning disabled?

[Joe]

I overheard a mother at Fazoli's last night whining to her daughter about how text messaging is destroying conversation and language. I didn't realize that the paranoia brigade was complaining about this now, too.

Fazoli's is doing more to destroy society than text messaging is

[panerd]

This is my first semester as a teacher and at Central High School in Little Rock (remember the little rock 9?) any teacher that has 25% of her students with a D or F gets severly repremanded and called out on at the end of the 9 week faculty staff meetings.Also, if the kid is 504, which basically means they have a learning disability, you aren't allowed to fail them. MY first nine weeks teaching I had a student who had a 7% because he refused to do any work at all. He just brought his calculator and played games on it all class. But the head of the math department and his assistant principal told me I had to pass him or the school would get sued and I would get fired.

Are you in a teacher's union? I ask only because your math chair and assistant principal are both full of shit. You can fail kids who are on 504's. Now it might get dicey seeing as it is your first year teaching and all, but our school has plenty of kids on 504's who fail and we have the exact same federal guidelines you guys have. I am sorry to hear (from the staff meeting callouts, etc.) that you teach at such a miserable school. Please get out and see what else is out there before you blow off the profession.

[LoneStarGirl]

I dont plan on blowing off the profession, I enjoy teaching math. The kid in question does not appear to have a learning disability. He was lazy and spoiled. He came to me twice asking for extra credit, and then proceeded to leave it on the ground at the end of the period. I wanted to fail him so bad but I was warned against it. It seems my school's administrators are very weak, the 50th anniversary of our school is next year, so we are going to have a lot of press. Bush is giong to visit us, etc. A month ago we took 2 guns off of kids but the principal refuses to put in metal detectors because it would make our school look ugly for the anniversary. They are scheduled to be put in in 2008.

[LoneStarGirl]

Oh and panerd I have not joined the union yet.... If things continue in this direction I will by next year

[wade moore]

So I'm confused. What is the specific logic on why you can't fail this kid? What grounds would this kid sue on that others wouldn't?

[Mac Howard]

I think the thread heading has it the wrong way around. You get what you pay for and we're simply not paying enough to get the best material. I'm not impressed with some of my daughter's teachers but nor would I do the job they do for the pay they get.

[clintl]

This is my first semester as a teacher and at Central High School in Little Rock (remember the little rock 9?) any teacher that has 25% of her students with a D or F gets severly repremanded and called out on at the end of the 9 week faculty staff meetings.Also, if the kid is 504, which basically means they have a learning disability, you aren't allowed to fail them. MY first nine weeks teaching I had a student who had a 7% because he refused to do any work at all. He just brought his calculator and played games on it all class. But the head of the math department and his assistant principal told me I had to pass him or the school would get sued and I would get fired.

I have to say that these kinds of stories astound me, because they are so at odds with what I have experienced both as a long-term substitute and now as a student teacher in two different school districts. If students failed, we failed them - there was no pressure from administrators to do otherwise. In fact, as a long-term sub, I had a vice principal specifically tell me to fail students who deserved to be failed, and not give them breaks they didn't deserve.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well i came in the semester about 4 weeks after it started, after these kids had run off 3 other teachers. They are the bottom of the barrel, the worst of the worst. I have 140 students and 30 are 504. To accomidate these kids you have to go to extremes, give them 4 hours instead of 2 to take tests, give the tests to them orally (its math!) Give them shorter tests, make them sit in the front of the classroom, write the notes out for them, give them 2-3 copies of every assignment, and give them a week to complete each page, instead of 2 nights like the other kids. 25 of the 30 504 kids I have are fine. They are lazy and have rich parents who know their kids are stupid, so they got a shrink to label them. The other 5 are trully disabled, dislexic, ADD, ADHD. But when its time for report cards, if you cannot prove that you did every single one of the things you were supposed to do to 'help' these 504's. You cannot fail them. The administrators won't let you. Also, by the 6th week, if the kid is failing, you have to have a parent conference with the 504 parents. If the conference does not take place because the parents work, or just didn't show up, you cannot fail the kids. Its crazy

[AZSpeechCoach]

So I'm confused. What is the specific logic on why you can't fail this kid? What grounds would this kid sue on that others wouldn't?

504 is a section of the Special Education law. Basically, 504 kids have some physical challenge, and require accommodations to help them succeed. An example would be a student woth hearing loss needs to be seated up front, or a student with ADD needs special instructions and reminders. The students do not have a specific learning disability, but need some more help. Having said that, there is no reason why LSG's student should have passed, other than the school was violating the federal law in some way, and did not want to risk a lawsuit in such a tricky year. Maybe the student's 504 plan was mishandled. Maybe the school didn't take care of the required paperwork. Maybe the required accommodations were not done correctly. Maybe the school knows that this parent will sue for any reason and just doesn't want to deal with that. We all have students like that.

edit...What LSG said...

[LoneStarGirl]

I didn't know there were so many teachers on this board.

[Barkeep49]

I didn't know there were so many teachers on this board.
I think there are at least half a dozen who post regularly.

[wade moore]

MY first nine weeks teaching I had a student who had a 7% because he refused to do any work at all. He just brought his calculator and played games on it all class. But the head of the math department and his assistant principal told me I had to pass him or the school would get sued and I would get fired.

I think I was confused by the "refused to do any work at all" and thought this was not a 504 kid...

Your explanation I understand (my fiance is a Kindergarten teacher).. that being said, I'm so stubborn that I would fail him if I think I have a good defense as to why and let the school deal with it. If they don't back me, I don't want to work for them anyways.

However, I understand why you wouldn't want to do that.

[AZSpeechCoach]

I just keep a low profile in education threads because every time a thread like this gets started, we wind up having to defend the entire profession against the people who had bad experiences in school, or know someone who had a bad teacher. We have to explain why we are so overpaid, and get so much time off, and why we need a union when we never do any work. I get it enough from the kids I teach, why would I deal with it here?

[wade moore]

I just keep a low profile in education threads because every time a thread like this gets started, we wind up having to defend the entire profession against the people who had bad experiences in school, or know someone who had a bad teacher. We have to explain why we are so overpaid, and get so much time off, and why we need a union when we never do any work. I get it enough from the kids I teach, why would I deal with it here?

Yeah, I'm not sure if you were involved in the thread where I was on the defensive a couple of months back...

I'll never understand why people don't think that teaching should be one of the highest paid professions.

[MJ4H]

I have had no problem failing students with learning disabilities in the past at my school. You just need to make sure you've done your best with them and any modifications that are suggested in their IEPs have been made.

[AZSpeechCoach]

Yeah, I'm not sure if you were involved in the thread where I was on the defensive a couple of months back...

I'll never understand why people don't think that teaching should be one of the highest paid professions.

I think I posted a little bit. Despite being a debate coach, I have a hard time debating those who are convinced they are right, and have no defense other than that they are right. In my world, you have to back up your claims with evidence. It makes the debate so much better. :D

[LoneStarGirl]

I definitly understand that AZSpeechCoach, I am having to do that with my own family it seems. They dont understand why I have this whole week off and am getting paid for. I honestly dont think teachers are underpaid. I am content with my salary. Once I get my masters in 2 years I get about a $10,000 raise and I will be making more than other people who graduated college the same time i did. Once I get my PhD I will be making around 70K to work 9 months a year. I think I can deal with that :)

[AZSpeechCoach]

But you don't work 9 months a year. To keep up with certification requirements, curruciulum changes, district requirements, and national tournament preparation (okay, this is my deal), it winds up being a 10-11 month job, and that is if you make a concerted effort to avoid doing school stuff for the remaining month. I began on August 1, and I will not be done until Memorial Day. By golly, I want my three months off. Mrs. SpeechCoach would be very happy with my attitude then :D

[wade moore]

I definitly understand that AZSpeechCoach, I am having to do that with my own family it seems. They dont understand why I have this whole week off and am getting paid for. I honestly dont think teachers are underpaid. I am content with my salary. Once I get my masters in 2 years I get about a $10,000 raise and I will be making more than other people who graduated college the same time i did. Once I get my PhD I will be making around 70K to work 9 months a year. I think I can deal with that :)

The broad stroke of my position is that the best and the brightest should be teaching.

However, the payscale as it is now that just does not happen (no slight intended at you). Many teachers are sadly underskilled and our best go into professions that are much more lucrative. IMO, the payscale should be such that more of those folks choose teaching as their profession.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well our school district is kind of weird, we go through the middle of june and start the last week of august. We get so many days off during the year though to make up for a shortened summer. Like getting three weeks for christmas. I definitly see teachers I work with not caring about anything but a paycheck, but unfortunately teachers are so hard to come by in little rock, administrators dont care. Especially math and science teachers, we get away with anything!

[wade moore]

Well our school district is kind of weird, we go through the middle of june and start the last week of august. We get so many days off during the year though to make up for a shortened summer. Like getting three weeks for christmas. I definitly see teachers I work with not caring about anything but a paycheck, but unfortunately teachers are so hard to come by in little rock, administrators dont care. Especially math and science teachers, we get away with anything!

I don't think that that is a very short summer... schools here go to the 25thish of june or so and start right after labor day.

[KevinNU7]

The broad stroke of my position is that the best and the brightest should be teaching.

However, the payscale as it is now that just does not happen (no slight intended at you). Many teachers are sadly underskilled and our best go into professions that are much more lucrative. IMO, the payscale should be such that more of those folks choose teaching as their profession.
If this is your arguement then wouldn't you be saying that the reason schools suck is because of shitty teachers? Since most of the potentially good ones are out doing pointless occupations like being doctors and scientists.

I would this arguement help to support the arguement that it is all the fault of parents and big bad administrators?

[KevinNU7]

The above post should not be taken very seriously, it is mostly a joke.

[wade moore]

If this is your arguement then wouldn't you be saying that the reason schools suck is because of shitty teachers? Since most of the potentially good ones are out doing pointless occupations like being doctors and scientists.

I would this arguement help to support the arguement that it is all the fault of parents and big bad administrators?

To an extent, your first statement would be true. I think there are many, many good teachers out there. I also think there are a lot of bad ones. And I think the overall quality would certainly improve if the pay was higher.

I believe that teachers should be relatively on par with doctors and scientists, as there is kind of a building effect of better/more doctors and scientists with better teachers. I'm not saying teachers should have the #1 best salary, but that they should be on par with the likes of doctors, scientists, etc...

I believe the biggest problem in problem schools is parenting, however I think that higher quality teachers would certainly go a long way to help the education system overall.

[st.cronin]

The above post should not be taken very seriously, it is mostly a joke.

The whole thread is a joke. Some teachers are overpaid, some teachers are underpaid.

[wade moore]

The whole thread is a joke. Some teachers are overpaid, some teachers are underpaid.

Yeah, that's why I try not to get too specific into the overpaid/underpaid and try to instead say pay should be higher as it would in general increase the overall quality of teaching. You can take any individual case and make all kinds of arguments.

[JW]

LoneStarGirl. You are in the wrong school and probably wrong district. Not every school is like you describe. Not every district is like you describe. But some are. My suggestion is that you need to shop around for a school and probably a district that is not afraid of high standards. I've been teaching 14 years following a military career. Been there, done that, move from a no-standards school and district to a high standards school and district. There is a huge variety out there, from places with no discipline and no standards, to places with high standards of discipline and academics. And do not let anyone fool you into thinking that all schools are the same.

[finketr]

The broad stroke of my position is that the best and the brightest should be teaching.

However, the payscale as it is now that just does not happen (no slight intended at you). Many teachers are sadly underskilled and our best go into professions that are much more lucrative. IMO, the payscale should be such that more of those folks choose teaching as their profession.

talent goes where the money is.

[wade moore]

talent goes where the money is.

Yes, that's my point.

[King of New York]

What's a good way of measuring teacher performance?

1) Standardized test scores? Pffft. Then teachers will just spend too much time teaching students how to take standardized tests. Or teachers will try to get the lower-income students out of their classes, so that they do not drag down the class average. Standardized tests would be useful, if you could show what percentage of the student's score was the result of a teacher's intervention (as opposed to what the student would've gotten with some other teacher), but there's no way of determining that.

2) Grades given in class? Pfft. Then teachers will have every incentive to start handing out high grades to everyone--grade inflation is bad enough as it is.

3) Evaluations by students or maybe parents? Same problem as above. To get good evaluations, teachers start handing out high grades to everyone (that's one of the causes of grade inflation in colleges today.)

4) Evaluations by administrators or by fellow teachers? But they'd only have time for a cursory review of each teacher's work (at least the parents and kids see the teachers day in, day out.) They might have no teaching experience or disciplinary knowledge themselves. Pfft pfft.

[wade moore]

I have some ideas on how I would evaluate teachers in an "ideal" world, but that's a whole seperate rant of mine...

I think it can be done relatively well, it would cost money, but I think it can be done.

[BrianD]

How long will it be before the classrooms are full of technology for everyone to monitor progress? With a camera or two in the classroom, administrators could monitor teaching methods and parents could see the interaction between teacher and student.

With electronic submission of homework (or scanned paper), parents/administrators could easily see when and what homework was turned in and compare it to the assignments given. Maybe they could even compare homework with that of other students.

It would seem like the whole "my kid would never do that" excuse would be taken away from parents and everybody would be able to see exactly what was going on. Would there be privacy issues with this....or should there be?

[JW]

Our district and many others have developed online systems that allow closer contact between the teacher and parents. In my district, we initiated such a system last year. For every class, I can now put weekly lesson plans on line, and I do put those on line along with additional information like class rules, problems in a particular class, and other information. My lesson plans also include all the powerpoint slides I will be using in the class -- I use powerpoint as my primary visual for the students, replacing the chalkboard. It is amazing how many parents have thanked teachers at my school for doing this, and it is amazing how angry some students have gotten over the fact that their parents are finding out they really do have homework and that they really do have a project due, and that the teacher wasn't just lying to the mom about it because the teacher doesn't like little Alice. We also use an on line system for recording grades with weekly updates showing grades in real time. So I now get calls from parents wanting to know why Johnny failed that test -- oh, the one he said he made a B on. Granted this doesn't help parents who don't go on line, but it has provided me with more feedback from parents and more access to parents than anything else I've seen in 14 years of teaching high school.

As for the argument about good and bad teachers, I've seen a lot of both. My view is raise pay and demand much better quality from teachers. Do both and you'll get a better educational product. Right now, with an overall shortage of teachers in America, many districts, especially the poorer ones, have many poor teachers. We're essentially getting what we pay for. This is particularly true in Louisiana, which has relatively low pay for teachers. But even in Louisiana there is great disparity in pay among districts. My district has a huge waiting list of highly qualified teachers trying to get in, especially to the good schools, while neighboring districts have a distinct shortage of qualified teaches. Supply and demand.

And one more thing. Teacher education programs need to be entirely revamped. Most of what is taught in colleges of education is pure crap that has little to do with real world teaching. Teachers learn to teach on the job. They should imho a basic degree in a subject area and then go to work as an apprentice teacher under guidance of a master teacher. But that will never happen.

[RendeR]

Teachers learn to teach on the job. They should imho a basic degree in a subject area and then go to work as an apprentice teacher under guidance of a master teacher. But that will never happen.


I positively LOVE this idea...now, how do we get it in motion??

[JediKooter]

Well i came in the semester about 4 weeks after it started, after these kids had run off 3 other teachers. They are the bottom of the barrel, the worst of the worst. I have 140 students and 30 are 504. To accomidate these kids you have to go to extremes, give them 4 hours instead of 2 to take tests, give the tests to them orally (its math!) Give them shorter tests, make them sit in the front of the classroom, write the notes out for them, give them 2-3 copies of every assignment, and give them a week to complete each page, instead of 2 nights like the other kids. 25 of the 30 504 kids I have are fine. They are lazy and have rich parents who know their kids are stupid, so they got a shrink to label them. The other 5 are trully disabled, dislexic, ADD, ADHD. But when its time for report cards, if you cannot prove that you did every single one of the things you were supposed to do to 'help' these 504's. You cannot fail them. The administrators won't let you. Also, by the 6th week, if the kid is failing, you have to have a parent conference with the 504 parents. If the conference does not take place because the parents work, or just didn't show up, you cannot fail the kids. Its crazy

If you can't fail them, the principal won't fail them and the school board won't fail them, then why bother having them go to school? First day of school, just hand out the diplomas and send them home.

[KevinNU7]

By the time my son is in school they will have outlawed the Internet as a parent/teacher tool because it favors the rich people with Internet access :rolleyes:

[dawgfan]

By the way she is a stone fox.
Still waiting on photo proof of this...

[st.cronin]

Still waiting on photo proof of this...

here ya go

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/967/335281647msl7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[ScottVib]

Well i came in the semester about 4 weeks after it started, after these kids had run off 3 other teachers. They are the bottom of the barrel, the worst of the worst.

This is the way some may describe most of my students (I teach lowest level 9th grade math classes), but hopefully you've found that the "worst of the worst" characteristic is not accurate. I'm in my second year teaching these type of students and couldn't imagine teaching something else.

Good luck in your first year!

[ScottVib]

If you can't fail them, the principal won't fail them and the school board won't fail them, then why bother having them go to school? First day of school, just hand out the diplomas and send them home.

Because if they don't take the standardized tests, the school is deemed to be failing under NCLB. ;)

[dawgfan]

here ya go

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/967/335281647msl7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
That's funny - I feel like I've seen her before. Maybe I dated her...?

[Barkeep49]

I positively LOVE this idea...now, how do we get it in motion??
I think at the High School level you redefine the role of Department Chair. Instead of the department chair teaching their own classes, as they do now, there would be much more of the department chair going in and actually modeling lessons in the teacher's classroom. Whether that means Monday is the day that the other teacher teaches or perhaps the DC teaches a particular unit. Department chairs, in this model, would be master teachers more than administrators, though they could still do the administrative work. We'd have to accept slightly larger class sizes, as the students department chairs had been teaching would now have to be folded into other classes.

That's one way. I think that way could be to redefine teacher licensing. Instead of student teaching, make the initial license an apprentice ship. So teachers would start off something like .8 aide in a master teacher's classroom (what we would now call a cooperating teacher) and .2 teacher. Over the course of the initial license this balance would change, however the apprentice teacher would be spending far more time, as in several years, in close daily contact with another teacher rather than just be thrown to the wolves.

The first model works well in High School, thanks to the existing administrative structure, but would not be as easily replicated in elementary/junior high, however I think the model is sound.

[JW]

I think at the High School level you redefine the role of Department Chair. Instead of the department chair teaching their own classes, as they do now, there would be much more of the department chair going in and actually modeling lessons in the teacher's classroom. Whether that means Monday is the day that the other teacher teaches or perhaps the DC teaches a particular unit. Department chairs, in this model, would be master teachers more than administrators, though they could still do the administrative work. We'd have to accept slightly larger class sizes, as the students department chairs had been teaching would now have to be folded into other classes.

That's one way. I think that way could be to redefine teacher licensing. Instead of student teaching, make the initial license an apprentice ship. So teachers would start off something like .8 aide in a master teacher's classroom (what we would now call a cooperating teacher) and .2 teacher. Over the course of the initial license this balance would change, however the apprentice teacher would be spending far more time, as in several years, in close daily contact with another teacher rather than just be thrown to the wolves.

The first model works well in High School, thanks to the existing administrative structure, but would not be as easily replicated in elementary/junior high, however I think the model is sound.

That would be kind of what I had in mind. And when I say that education course in college are useless, that isn't quite true. There are a few good things teachers could learn from college-level education courses, but they could take a course or two in the summer during their apprenticeship. In Louisiana I had to take 18 semester hours (6 courses) in education to get my teaching certificate even though I already had a basic degree. Only one of those courses has been any use to me in actual teaching. That was the course in testing and measurement (constructing tests and analyzing test data). There was also a good course in writing performance-oriented learning objectives, but that was only because the professor tossed out what he was supposed to teach and just turned it into a long workshop in which we wrote and re-wrote and re-wrote learning objectives and ignored the textbook and everything else associated with the course. That professor was well liked by teachers but despised by the education department.

Nevertheless, I think everything that is taught in an edcuation department at the college level for a prospective teacher could be condensed into a couple of good courses the teacher could take while serving an apprenticeship.

[astrosfan64]

I don't think teachers are overpaid or underpaid.

They get off for summers. They get off for all holidays. I wonder what a teachers salary is per hour. We always look at the yearly salary and say "hey that is to low, but when you compare it to what they get paid per hour, I bet it is alot higher then you think".

[Barkeep49]

I'd be a lesser person if I hadn't been exposed to one of my education professors. And I'd likely be a worse teacher as well because she was able to inspire me and present intellecutal backing for much of what I instictively knew to be true for working with kids.

Despite all this I agree with JW that a couple of courses while doing apprenticeships would likely have been far more meaningful. I think about how great it would be to sit on this inspiring professors courses now, when I understand so much better what it means to teach.

[Barkeep49]

I don't think teachers are overpaid or underpaid.

They get off for summers. They get off for all holidays. I wonder what a teachers salary is per hour. We always look at the yearly salary and say "hey that is to low, but when you compare it to what they get paid per hour, I bet it is alot higher then you think".
Can we not have this discussion again? Were you not invovled in the last one? I thought you were, but we spent a lot of time debating and discussing the value and meaning of summers and acomplished nothing. I'd be happy to try and find that thread if you're interested.

[JediKooter]

Because if they don't take the standardized tests, the school is deemed to be failing under NCLB. ;)

Damn it! There's always something. Reminds me of trying to get a problem solved in the Republic Senate.

[st.cronin]

That's funny - I feel like I've seen her before. Maybe I dated her...?

:D

[wade moore]

Can we not have this discussion again? Were you not invovled in the last one? I thought you were, but we spent a lot of time debating and discussing the value and meaning of summers and acomplished nothing. I'd be happy to try and find that thread if you're interested.

I'm pretty sure he was, but I could be wrong.

astrosfan - just do a search and find the old thread, i'm with Barkeep, I don't feel like rehashing this again.

[astrosfan64]

I'm pretty sure he was, but I could be wrong.

astrosfan - just do a search and find the old thread, i'm with Barkeep, I don't feel like rehashing this again.

I don't think I was. I'll look for it. I'll drop the point. :)

[Edward64]

I don't think I was. I'll look for it. I'll drop the point. :)
Uh oh.

[Barkeep49]

I don't think I was. I'll look for it. I'll drop the point. :)
My apologies astro, you indeed were not part of that discussion. I think there's some good stuff in the thread: http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=53973&

[thealmighty]

With electronic submission of homework (or scanned paper), parents/administrators could easily see when and what homework was turned in and compare it to the assignments given. Maybe they could even compare homework with that of other students.

Along these lines, the AP Physics teacher at my school had his assignments on the net. Students had to enter their code, get their problems- there was randomization of the numbers used in each persons problem set, though the questions were identical- and fill in the answers.

Guess what happened...? Yes, the best student (eventual valedictorian, btw) set up a business where students gave him their problems; he worked them, gave the answers back and they filled them in. He made a FORTUNE.

[Icy]

I find weird how to be a teacher is thought as a bad job in USA as in Spain it's one of the best jobs you can have because the following:

- Salary way above the average of Spanish workers.
- 3 months of holidays per year vs the standard 1 for Spanish workers.
- Once you become a teacher for the state (you need to pass an exam competing with more teachers to get the job), you can't ever be fired no matter how bad you do your job as state workers in Spain can't be fired so you have a work for your whole life.

[clintl]

That would be kind of what I had in mind. And when I say that education course in college are useless, that isn't quite true. There are a few good things teachers could learn from college-level education courses, but they could take a course or two in the summer during their apprenticeship. In Louisiana I had to take 18 semester hours (6 courses) in education to get my teaching certificate even though I already had a basic degree. Only one of those courses has been any use to me in actual teaching. That was the course in testing and measurement (constructing tests and analyzing test data). There was also a good course in writing performance-oriented learning objectives, but that was only because the professor tossed out what he was supposed to teach and just turned it into a long workshop in which we wrote and re-wrote and re-wrote learning objectives and ignored the textbook and everything else associated with the course. That professor was well liked by teachers but despised by the education department.

Nevertheless, I think everything that is taught in an edcuation department at the college level for a prospective teacher could be condensed into a couple of good courses the teacher could take while serving an apprenticeship.

In contrast to your perspective, I'm getting a teaching credential now. I feel I'm learning a great deal more from coursework and from faculty observations of my student teaching than I am from feedback from my mentor teacher. Granted, not every course has been that useful. I like working with my mentor teacher. But my mentor teacher has a teaching style that does not work well for me, and I really think things started going a lot better when I stopped using his approach, and started doing things my way, based on what I've learned in my courses. (And, based on feedback from my students, they feel the same way.)

It's possible that my view comes from the fact I doing this a second career, so I'm coming into the profession with quite a bit more real-world experience than most new teachers. And also that I did a fair amount of substituting, including some long term substitute assignments, before entering a credential program, so I had some independent classroom experience already. But I think that, at least in the program I'm in, the balance between coursework and apprenticeship is about right.

[Barkeep49]

Clint, perhaps you won't feel this way when you start, because of your long term teaching experience, but I will be curious to see if your feelings evolve or stay the same once you get your own classroom. I know my feelings certainly evolved during that time.

On the other hand, perhaps you had a substantially different coursework experience than I did. What is your program like?

[JW]

It may well be that you have a superior coursework experience. I have to assume there are some good colleges of education out there. My experience is limited to personal experience and anecdotal experience from a lot of teachers I know, and is confined largely to Louisiana. I do agree that coming to teaching from another profession gives you a different perspective from a new teacher For example, you had the confidence to break away from your mentor's style and go with what felt right for you, using what you felt was valuable from your educational experience.

I've mentored several teachers in Louisiana's new teacher program and am mentoring a couple right now. I try to keep a loose hand and suggest and give positive encouragement and give them some specific strategies to improve problem areas rather than give them a specific style or pattern to follow.

[clintl]

For example, you had the confidence to break away from your mentor's style and go with what felt right for you, using what you felt was valuable from your educational experience.



Actually, we're expected to that at some point. I actually probably waited a bit too long, and here's where the coursework may have interfered. I decided to make the break immediately following Thanksgiving (and also coinciding with a major student teaching project that we needed to complete). The break away fit well with the requirements of the teaching project. One of the big factors in deciding to do then what I had been contemplating for several weeks was that I had a week off from both student teaching and coursework to actually plan what I wanted to do, instead of being in day-to-day survival mode trying to balance the time management demands of both coursework and teaching.

[clintl]

Clint, perhaps you won't feel this way when you start, because of your long term teaching experience, but I will be curious to see if your feelings evolve or stay the same once you get your own classroom. I know my feelings certainly evolved during that time.

On the other hand, perhaps you had a substantially different coursework experience than I did. What is your program like?

Here's a link to the program I'm in:

http://education.ucdavis.edu/programs/s_sub_coursewrk.html

I'm in the science credential program. We have two student teaching placements, a primary and a secondary, with different teachers and different grade levels. In the primary placement, we observe our mentor teachers for the first 4-6 weeks, then take over one period and teach that period the rest of the school year. In the second placement, we observe for the first UCD quarter, then take over teaching one period in January, and teach it for the rest of the school year. I'm teaching chemistry (11th and 12th graders) in my primary placement, and will be teaching earth science (9th graders) in my secondary placement starting Jan. 16, when they return from their winter break.

The coursework is broken down like this (and keep in mind that I've only completed the fall quarter, so I can't really comment on the usefulness of courses that I haven't taken yet):

Fall
EDU153T - Cultural Diversity and Education - probably the least useful course. However, in this course, we had group presentations that I found very enlightening about a variety of topics, and not just race and gender type issues (for example, they included special needs children, children of alcoholics and drug abusers, at risk children, children of divorce).

EDU180 - Computers in Education - mostly a skills-development course for using technology as a teacher, although there was a session on having students use technology for research.

EDU275 - Effective Teaching - covered a lot of ground (classroom management techniques, getting to know students and the school, lesson planning, group work, assessment, designing tests, and some things I'm probably forgetting to mention, capped by a comprehensive project where we planned a week's worth of lessons, taught the lessons, and evaluated our teaching and what the students actually learned based on their performance on assignments.)

EDU292 - Called "Special Topics". It focused on teaching science effectively (i.e. philosophies of science teaching, activities, engaging the students, teaching science as inquiry rather than as a collection of theories and laws, etc.) It was also a companion class to our student teaching, and we quite often deviated from the planned lesson for the day to talk about specific issues that one or more of us were encountering in the classroom.

EDU306A - The student teaching itself.

EDU323A - In this course, we spent half of the time traveling to different schools in the area, and having teachers in those schools show us some of the demonstrations and lab activities they use in their classes. It was focused on physical and earth sciences. This was a very hands on class, where we did most of the activities ourselves. The other half of the class consisted of doing the same types of things on campus. We also had to do an online research project using real data to predict a physical phenomenon that could be used as a model for a research project in a secondary school setting. A very fun and very useful class.

Winter
EDU206A - Inquiry into Class Practice: Traditions (I believe we will be collecting and analyzing data from the classes we are student teaching)
EDU292 - More of the same from last quarter, although I believe this is where we are going to do our capstone teaching project (similar to the one we did in EDU275 in the fall, but for much higher stakes)
EDU301 - Reading in Secondary Schools
EDU306B - The second quarter of student teaching
EDU323B - Like 323A, except focusing on life science activities

Spring
EDU115 - Educating Children with Disabilities
EDU206B - Inquiry into Classroom Practice: Intervention
EDU306C - Third quarter of student teaching
EDU326 - Teaching Language Minority Students in Sec. Schools (I assume we are taking it here, although I don't see it on the schedule we have. It's a big issue in California. In my Chemistry class, for instance, all of my students are classified Fluent English Proficient, but probably 1/2-2/3 of them have a native language other than English. And it's not just Spanish, either. Six of them are Russian immigrants, and I have several who come from a variety of Asian countries. In the Earth Science class I will be taking over, three of the students are still classified ELL, and among the rest of the students, there are quite a few others who are not native English speakers.)

I would say that EDU275, EDU292, and EDU323 are the classes that provided me with the most useful ideas that I could implement directly into classroom practices.

[Barkeep49]

This seems far more practical than most education curriculums I've seen.

[st.cronin]

I'm shocked at the direction this thread has taken.

[Warhammer]

I find weird how to be a teacher is thought as a bad job in USA as in Spain it's one of the best jobs you can have because the following:

- Salary way above the average of Spanish workers.
- 3 months of holidays per year vs the standard 1 for Spanish workers.
- Once you become a teacher for the state (you need to pass an exam competing with more teachers to get the job), you can't ever be fired no matter how bad you do your job as state workers in Spain can't be fired so you have a work for your whole life.

The salary here is comparable to average workers here. Many even have other jobs they take during the summer to supplement their income. And as you mention, in many places, once you get tenure you basically can't get fired. Throw in the fact that in some states you can retire at age 45-50 with full pay, and its a pretty good deal in some places.

[Huckleberry]

Shouldn't you people be teaching some kid instead of spending all your time on an internet message board?

;)

(Is that better st. cronin?)

[st.cronin]

Shouldn't you people be teaching some kid instead of spending all your time on an internet message board?

;)

(Is that better st. cronin?)

:D

[JW]

I'm on Christmas vacation until Monday. And this forum is blocked at work.

Note - I sincerely apologize if anyone was traumatized or offended or both because my school district takes a Christmas vacation instead of a winter holiday/festivus vacation.

[clintl]

This seems far more practical than most education curriculums I've seen.

Just curious - what does a more typical curriculum look like? I think the typical credential curriculum here in California underwent significant revisions a couple of years ago as a result of new state requirements.

[RendeR]

I'm on Christmas vacation until Monday. And this forum is blocked at work.

Note - I sincerely apologize if anyone was traumatized or offended or both because my school district takes a Christmas vacation instead of a winter holiday/festivus vacation.


Don't apologize for using the term "christmas" it is a fully accepted and acceptable label for the period of time from December through January 1.

This PC bullshit the world puts up with is far more offensive than any specific terminology.

[JW]

Don't apologize for using the term "christmas" it is a fully accepted and acceptable label for the period of time from December through January 1.

This PC bullshit the world puts up with is far more offensive than any specific terminology.

Sorry. That was sarcasm. Sometimes that doesn't come across too well on the internet.