Troy Aikman - Hall of Famer or not?

[Honolulu Blue]

A couple of weeks ago, I initiated this thread (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=27116&highlight=moon) detailing Warren Moon's HOF chances. Based on the response there, and in the similar Jerome Bettis thread (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=27578), I bring to you another candidate who will be subject to some debate in a couple of years.

Briefly, why he might make it:

* Three Front Office Bowl rings
* 6 Pro Bowls
* Deadly accurate passer in his best years
* 11-5 playoff record
* High-profile job

And why he might not make it:

* Career was a little short
* Counting stats not among elite
* Not that many TD passes
* Had a whole bunch of good players around him, perhaps making him look better than he actually was

You can review more of his stats here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/AikmTr00.htm).

I won't persuade you too hard either way; I'm just trying to stir up some debate.

[Raiders Army]

Again with the Front Office Bowl rings???

He'll make it, deservedly so. A quarterback who can lead his team to 3 Superbowl victories deserves it, regardless of length of career. Although the argument could be made that Trent Dilfer lead his team, Troy was as much of the Cowboys as Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin. The Ravens were better known for Ray Lewis and the defense.

[Vince]

Was one of the only Cowboys I have ever respected...and his three rings combined with pretty good numbers will be enough to get him in there. How long it takes -- that I'm not sure of.

[sachmo71]

Yes, and not just because I am a homer. :D

He was a field general, and a great NFL personality. I'll be he's first ballot material, even if much of his success was created by the team around him.

[Ramzavail]

Eventually he will get there - 6 pro bowls is nice and 3 super bowl rings. Usually multiple super bowl rings as a QB - gives you a ticket to the HOF.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yes, and not just because I am a homer. :D

He was a field general, and a great NFL personality. I'll be he's first ballot material, even if much of his success was created by the team around him.

It's interesting, I was in Dallas back in the fall of 2000, right around the end of Aikman's career. I heard many fans in Dallas really criticizing the guy. I mean, they really spoke very poorly about Aikman. They seemed to hate him. It was baffling to me. I mean, the guy was your team's QB for 3 Superbowls!? What the f*ck?

[hhiipp]

From a completely statistical standpoint I compared Troy to Joe Theismann and in doing so their numbers are fairly similar.


--------------------Passing---------------------Rushing
-------G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD
Troy 165 | 2898 4715 61.5 32942 7.0 165 141 | 327 1016 9
Joe 167 | 2044 3602 56.7 25206 7.0 160 138 | 355 1815 17

The only noticable differences here are the passing attempts and yardage, everything else is very comparable.

Knowing that Joe Theismann isn't in the HOF I don't think Troy deserves to be either.

Its my opinion that the only hope for Troy to get into the HOF is the 3 Super Bowls in 4 seasons and his 6 Pro Bowls, and even then I don't think he should be inducted.

Edit: I hate spacing.

[sachmo71]

It's interesting, I was in Dallas back in the fall of 2000, right around the end of Aikman's career. I heard many fans in Dallas really criticizing the guy. I mean, they really spoke very poorly about Aikman. They seemed to hate him. It was baffling to me. I mean, the guy was your team's QB for 3 Superbowls!? What the f*ck?

He was fading at the time, but you have to understand Dallas. Win now or die. That's the attitude of a lot of sports fans.

Actually, it's not exclusive to Dallas, but to sports fans of this era. What have you done for me lately seems to permiate the game.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Troy Aikman was the most accurate passer of his era.

As far as the team around him, consider the fact that all he had to throw to was Michael Irvin downfield and Novacek short. Alvin Harper ran two patterns. If Aikman ever had a 2nd receiver, his numbers would be even better. Plus he wasn't forced to put up numbers when Emmitt Smith was in his prime, and neither would anyone else.

He is a shoo-in first ballot.

[Darkiller]

Was one of the only Cowboys I have ever respected...and his three rings combined with pretty good numbers will be enough to get him in there. How long it takes -- that I'm not sure of.
Same here,
as a 49er fan, Aikman was one of the few Cowboys that I respected.
Not 100% sure that he'll make it on the 1st ballot though...but i think he will.

[Darkiller]

Troy Aikman was the most accurate passer of his era.

.
Wrong.
Steve Young was the more accurate of the two.

[Huckleberry]

Wrong.
Steve Young was the more accurate of the two.

1.) I disagree.

2.) Kind of irrelevant to the question at hand as Steve Young should be a first ballot Hall of Famer.

[Blackadar]

I hate Dallas.

With that said, Aikman's in. 3 Super Bowls and 6 Pro Bowls are enough without question.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I believe of the triplets only Irvin will not be a first ballot selection, but he will go anyways.

[Vince]

I definitely think an argument can be made for Aikman to be a 1st ballot guy...but I personally don't think he is.

[Glengoyne]

...

Its my opinion that the only hope for Troy to get into the HOF is the 3 Super Bowls in 4 seasons and his 6 Pro Bowls, and even then I don't think he should be inducted.

Edit: I hate spacing.
That is exactly what will get him in. I am inclined to send Aikman and Irvin because of their Super Bowl experiences, those two were legends in most folks minds at the time. Not necessarilly mine, but really Dallas's three stars were considered sure thing HOFers in their time.

[Swaggs]

I hate Dallas.

With that said, Aikman's in. 3 Super Bowls and 6 Pro Bowls are enough without question.

Agreed.

Steelers' fans are smart. :)

[SFL Cat]

I've been a Cowboys fan for 35 years now. Aikman is definitely a HOFer, but of the Triplets, only Emmitt goes first ballot IMO.

[Chief Rum]

hhiipp,

Did you look too closely at those numbers? Because you're wrong--they aren't similar at all.

First off, although longevity should not be the primary reason a player gets in, there is something to playing more in a tough physical game, so Aikman gets the nod there because he threw the ball over a 1,000 times more than Theismann.

As a result of that, he also had significantly more yardage. I don't see 32,000 and 25,000 yards as the same. That, to me, sounds like another three seasons for Joe to catch Troy.

The completion percentages are five percentage points off. That's how much better Troy was than Joe. That's pretty significant, the difference between 61% and 56%.

Their TD rates were the same--and that's the only stat in this whole line that I found the same.

You probably looked at the 165 int by Troy to 160 by Joe and jumped on that as "similar", but once again, you're ignoring the fact Troy threw over 1000 passes more than Joe. Troy's int percentage is very good, and much better than Joe's.

I'll give Joe on the rushing stats, but then, I don't think a QB should be penalized for his ability (or inability) to run. A QB is in the game to pass the ball first, and if he can run, great, added quality.

So, no, Troy and Joe don't have similar stats at all. In fact, Troy pretty much beats the crap out of Joe in just aboiut every critical passing stats listed there. And Troy has three rings and six Pro Bowl appearances. Slam dunk.

CR

[sachmo71]

Troy wins in the number of concussions, too.

[Huckleberry]

And the number of never-mutilated lower leg bones.

[Bee]

CR,

I think you need to look at the numbers again. The formating seems to be off and confused some of your numbers (for example, the 165 and 160 are TDs not INTs).

Looking at the numbers, Troy had more passes and a better completion percentage and also threw less INTs per attempt. Joe T threw more TDs per attempt and as you noted was a better running QB. The TD to INT ratio is almost identical.

I'd give Troy the slight nod mostly due to being a more accurate passer, but I don't see his numbers being significantly better than Joe T. (Although he is much less annoying to me ;)).

[hhiipp]

Chief did you even read my post?

I put :
The only noticable differences here are the passing attempts and yardage, everything else is very comparable.

If you want to attack the 5% difference in passing completion how about this one. Troy threw 1100 more passes than Joe and only had 5 more touchdowns. If Joe had thrown those extra 1100 passes you know what that big bad 5% would have added up to? 55 completions, I don't know about you but that doesn't seem like a very big number to me.

Joe had a 1.15 td/int ratio Troy has a 1.17 slightly better, but once again not significantly better. Their yards per attempt were exactly the same. Troy threw 1 TD per every 28.5 attempts Joe one every 22.5 attempts.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you don't think Joe is a better QB than Troy, but my guess lies in the fact that you are probably a Cowboys fan.

Again, I think Troy will go to the HOF but I really don't think he deserves it.

[digamma]

Again, I don't get the distinction between "first ballot guy" and "he belongs in, but not on the first ballot." A guy either belongs in the Hall or he doesn't. Do we need a hall of fame for the hall of fame? A separate wing for first ballot guys?

(I understand the way the Pro Football Hall of Fame elects its classes--through a minimum and maximum number of entrants--and that there may be particular years where an extraordinarily large and qualified class becomes eligible for election. In such years, it may be valid to say, X deserves a spot in the Hall, but they can only elect seven this year and these seven guys are more deserving, so next year I'll vote for X. However, I don't think people are making that distinction between first ballot guys and non-first ballot guys.)

[Huckleberry]

Are we going on what we all think the standards should be, or what history says they are?

Because if Swann and Stallworth are in the Hall, then Troy Aikman shouldn't even be asked about. Or Michael Irvin. Hell, with all the Steelers they threw in there from the 70s dynasty, the Cowboys should probably get Jay Novacek in there for grins.

[Grid Iron]

Plus he wasn't forced to put up numbers when Emmitt Smith was in his prime, and neither would anyone else.

Excellent point. Interestingly, in '94 and '95, Aikman threw only 13 and 16 touchdowns respectively. Those don't sound like HOF QB numbers, but Emmitt ran for 21 scores in '94 and 25 in '95, essentially taking the ball out of Aikman's hands. . . So to speak. ;)

It just doesn't seem fair to penalize a great QB because he played with a HOF RB.

[Blackadar]

Let's look at Joe T vs. Troy in terms of QB ratings.

Joe's caeer rating is 77.4

Troy's career rating is 81.6

There's a fair difference there. Close, but clearly Troy's a better QB using the NFL ratings. Frankly, if Smith didn't get so many rushing TDs (the 'Boys almost never passed inside the 5 yard line), then the difference would be even more substantial.

As for Joe T, his problem is that he was only elected to the Pro Bowl twice. That's pretty paltry. Troy, on the other hand, went to 6 Pro Bowl - meaning his counterparts in the NFL thought he was worthy. Remember, Pro Bowl selections are by the players, not the fans. And the players deemed Troy worthy 6 times. That's a huge difference. So are the Super Bowl rings - 1 for Joe, 3 for Troy.

Is Troy the best QB of his age to be inducted? Not nearly. Is he worthy? Without a doubt.

Is Joe worthy? Sorry, but I don't see any compelling reason for him to get in. His stats are clearly borderline at best and only 2 Pro Bowls speaks volumes. His statistics are much closer to Steve Bartkowski (same era, career rating of 75.5) than Troy Aikman. And no one is claiming Steve Bartkowski is HoF worthy.

[cthomer5000]

The completion percentages are five percentage points off. That's how much better Troy was than Joe. That's pretty significant, the difference between 61% and 56%.
That is a very significant difference in my opinion as well. Very.

[Chief Rum]

Chief did you even read my post?

I put :
The only noticable differences here are the passing attempts and yardage, everything else is very comparable.

If you want to attack the 5% difference in passing completion how about this one. Troy threw 1100 more passes than Joe and only had 5 more touchdowns. If Joe had thrown those extra 1100 passes you know what that big bad 5% would have added up to? 55 completions, I don't know about you but that doesn't seem like a very big number to me.

Joe had a 1.15 td/int ratio Troy has a 1.17 slightly better, but once again not significantly better. Their yards per attempt were exactly the same. Troy threw 1 TD per every 28.5 attempts Joe one every 22.5 attempts.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you don't think Joe is a better QB than Troy, but my guess lies in the fact that you are probably a Cowboys fan.

Again, I think Troy will go to the HOF but I really don't think he deserves it.

Obviously, this is a potato-potAto thing.

First off, if you bothered to read Bee's post (or read mine, whatdoyaknow same as me with you, eh?), you would have realized I had confused the 165-160 thing on your stats list because you didn't bother to "code" the stats so that they would line up.

Knowing that now, yeah, it looks better for Joe with respect to comparison purposes. The touchdown thing is a significant improvemnet, and moves them closer to one another.

That said, you make a big deal about td-to-int, but I don't see what one has to do with the other. They are their own individual skills (and one Troy beats Joe in anyway, even if slightly).

So, I'll give Joe the touchdowns, but interceptions and completion percentage are two areas that are very much the responsibility of the quarterbacks, while touchdowns and yards per attempt are much more reliant on team offense, and other factors.

You want to just say the better yardage and attempts (longevity) and completion percentage (which, whatever you say, still is a significant imporvement) and much better interception rate all mean nothing, because they are countered by Joe throwing touchdowns or because he can run a little?

If that's the way you see it, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not in the business of ignoring whole stat areas or dismissing them as completely insignificant because they don't agree with my opinion.

BTW, I am more of a Troy fan than a Cowboys fan, whom I haven't much followed since he left. I'm a big UCLA fan, and started following the Cowboys when Troy went there. So, yeah, I'm a Troy homer. Got me there. That doesn't mean what I am saying above is wrong, or that your "pick and choose which stats matter" approach is anything even close to accurate.

And, onvce again, all of this ignores the fact Troy led his squad to three rings (last I checked Joe has one). I stil don't see all that many simialrities between the two. Perhaps if they played the same length of time, sure, but they didn't, and Troy should be given the benefit for lasting longer in a game like football, don't you think?

CR

[Blackadar]

Are we going on what we all think the standards should be, or what history says they are?

Because if Swann and Stallworth are in the Hall, then Troy Aikman shouldn't even be asked about. Or Michael Irvin. Hell, with all the Steelers they threw in there from the 70s dynasty, the Cowboys should probably get Jay Novacek in there for grins.

As a Steeler fan, I can say the only one who got inducted who shouldn't have is Swann. Everyone else is unquestionably worthy.

Perhaps not Jay Novacek, but as a Steeler fan, I'd support the inclusion of another Cowboy TE...Jackie Smith. :)

(For anyone who doesn't get the reference, http://espn.go.com/page2/s/superbowlmoments25.html - look at item #24)

[hhiipp]

Blackadar: I agree Joe Theismann shouldn't and never will be inducted into the HOF

It is interesting to note that in 3 of Troys Pro Bowl seasons he didn't put up very impressive td/int numbers.
91: 11/10
94: 13/12
96: 12/13

Not quite sure how that makes him Pro Bowl Material. Although in the other 3 seasons he was voted to the PB he was worthy.

[Huckleberry]

As a Steeler fan, I can say the only one who got inducted who shouldn't have is Swann. Everyone else is unquestionably worthy.

Perhaps not Jay Novacek, but as a Steeler fan, I'd support the inclusion of another Cowboy TE...Jackie Smith. :)

(For anyone who doesn't get the reference, http://espn.go.com/page2/s/superbowlmoments25.html - look at item #24)

Yeah, I get the reference. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I was 1. Broke my heart. Still haven't recovered.

edit - By the way, I know that most of the Steelers deserved it. But so did some 70s Cowboys that are still inexplicably on the outside looking in.

[hhiipp]

Perhaps if they played the same length of time, sure, but they didn't, and Troy should be given the benefit for lasting longer in a game like football, don't you think?

Longevity isn't even an issue when comparing these 2, in fact Joe played in 2 more games than Troy.

I said before that I think Troy will get in based on Super Bowls and Pro Bowls, even though I don't agree with it.

[Huckleberry]

Actually, I think it's fairly clear that the Hall of Fame cutoff is reasonably somewhere in the small range between Aikman and Theismann. ;)

Aikman is in the all time Top 20 in Completions and Yards. And he won 3 Super Bowls.

[Chief Rum]

Blackadar: I agree Joe Theismann shouldn't and never will be inducted into the HOF

It is interesting to note that in 3 of Troys Pro Bowl seasons he didn't put up very impressive td/int numbers.
91: 11/10
94: 13/12
96: 12/13

Not quite sure how that makes him Pro Bowl Material. Although in the other 3 seasons he was voted to the PB he was worthy.

Did you read the post about Emmitt and the Cowboys' reliance on him? Those TD numbers are reflective of that, not on Troy's ability to throw them. The interceptions are still solid there, and I still don't get your reliance on the td-to-int ratio, which is meaningless.

CR

[Huckleberry]

And, of course, if both Chief Rum and I are on the same side of an argument, it's probably right. :D

[Chief Rum]

Longevity isn't even an issue when comparing these 2, in fact Joe played in 2 more games than Troy.

I said before that I think Troy will get in based on Super Bowls and Pro Bowls, even though I don't agree with it.

So you don't see winning Super Bowls or getting voted to Pro Bowls as significant?

CR

[Chief Rum]

And, of course, if both Chief Rum and I are on the same side of an argument, it's probably right. :D

Touché :D

[sachmo71]

I would have liked to have seen Troy on a team like the 2001 Rams. I wonder what his stats would look like?

[j51]

NFL Highlights:
- Number One pick in the 1989 NFL Draft by Dallas Cowboys
- Led Dallas to consecutive Super Bowl titles in 1992 & 1993 and another in 1995
- Led Dallas to four consecutive NFC championship games - 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995
- One of only three quarterbacks in NFL history with at least three Super Bowl victories
- Only quarterback in NFL history to win three Super Bowls in four years
- MVP of Super Bowl XXVII (1993)
- Winningest quarterback of any decade in NFL history - 90 victories in the 90s
- All-Pro Selection 4 Years
- Six Pro Bowl selections
- Set an NFL rookie-record with 379 yards passing against the Phoenix Cardinals
- Set the record for the longest play from scrimmage in playoff history with a 94-yard TD pass to Alvin Harper against the Packers (1994)
- Set NFC Championship game records for attempts, completions, and passing yards in a 38-28 loss to the 49ers. (1994)
- Set club records with 156 passing attempts without an interception (1996)
- Finished career with 32,942 total passing yards and completed 2,898 passes on 4,715 attempts (61.5%)
- Inducted into the Texas Sports Hall of Fame (February 26, 2002)
Sounds like a HOFer to me

[Senator]

If you put in Joe Theisman you have to put in Jim Hart.

Just to stir up crap.

[Cuckoo]

Should Troy Aikman be in the Hall of Fame?

Yes. Now quit arguing. :)

[JeeberD]

Yes, he does deserve to be in the HOF. End of story...

[Franklinnoble]

Bah. If Art Monk can't make the hall of fame, neither should Troy Aikman.

[duckman]

Definite 1st ballot HoFer.

[SFL Cat]

As a Steeler fan, I can say the only one who got inducted who shouldn't have is Swann. Everyone else is unquestionably worthy.

Perhaps not Jay Novacek, but as a Steeler fan, I'd support the inclusion of another Cowboy TE...Jackie Smith. :)

(For anyone who doesn't get the reference, http://espn.go.com/page2/s/superbowlmoments25.html - look at item #24)

Aaaaarggghhh?? How could he have DROPPED that TD pass? :eek: My mom could have caught that one! I hope Jackie Smith was able to live comfortably on the money the Steelers obviously paid him to tank that play.

But...I guess we got even in January '96 when we paid Steeler QB O'Donnell to throw those two passes to his favorite target of the day, Dallas CB Larry Brown. :p

[larrymcg421]

As a Steeler fan, I can say the only one who got inducted who shouldn't have is Swann. Everyone else is unquestionably worthy.

Perhaps not Jay Novacek, but as a Steeler fan, I'd support the inclusion of another Cowboy TE...Jackie Smith. :)

(For anyone who doesn't get the reference, http://espn.go.com/page2/s/superbowlmoments25.html - look at item #24)
Am I the only one that thinks Jackie Smith got a raw deal here? The pass was pretty low. It looks perfectly on target because Jackie had to go down to get it. Clearly he should have caught it, but if the pass was better thrown then I think it would have been a TD.