What should i do?!

[Sublime]

Ok...This is my second season playing Hattrick, and i'm currently in 4th place in V.81. I'm running the 3-5-2, and am currently training keepers. I was wondering if maybe i should tweak some things, either formation or what. I'm hovering about the debt mark at about 40,000. Here's my team, please any input is appreciated: (My starters are the first 11 that appear in order of there position, Palma keep, Pesterac Left Wingback etc.)



<b>Aureo Palma</b>
254 000 US$, 20 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and weak leadership abilities

Stamina: wretched Keeper: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: disastrous


<b>Dragan Pesterac</b>
34 000 US$, 20 years, solid form
Has poor experience and wretched leadership abilities [Unpredictable]

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: wretched Passing: weak
Winger: inadequate Defending: inadequate
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: poor


<b>Blair Coffman</b>
38 000 US$, 26 years, inadequate form
Has poor experience and poor leadership abilities [Quick]

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: poor
Winger: wretched Defending: solid
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: disastrous


<b>Tobias Cubby</b>
28 000 US$, 19 years, passable form
Has poor experience and wretched leadership abilities

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: inadequate Passing: poor
Winger: inadequate Defending: inadequate
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: weak


<b>Ambrose Curley 2</b>
30 000 US$, 22 years, inadequate form
Has poor experience and weak leadership abilities

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: inadequate Passing: wretched
Winger: passable Defending: wretched
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: inadequate


<b>Calvin Larose</b>
37 000 US$, 29 years, inadequate form
Has inadequate experience and weak leadership abilities

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: passable Passing: disastrous
Winger: wretched Defending: poor
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: inadequate


<b>Einar Gaare</b>
47 000 US$, 28 years, inadequate form
Has weak experience and disastrous leadership abilities [Head]

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: passable Passing: wretched
Winger: wretched Defending: wretched
Scoring: passable Set Pieces: weak


<b>Jean-Paul Muzard</b>
54 000 US$, 29 years, inadequate form
Has poor experience and poor leadership abilities

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: wretched
Playmaking: passable Passing: weak
Winger: passable Defending: weak
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: passable


<b>Tullio Napoletano</b>
79 000 US$, 24 years, passable form
Has poor experience and poor leadership abilities [Head]

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: passable Passing: weak
Winger: passable Defending: weak
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: disastrous


<b>Vincent Kannabel</b>
46 000 US$, 26 years, solid form
Has weak experience and passable leadership abilities

Stamina: disastrous Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: weak
Winger: weak Defending: weak
Scoring: solid Set Pieces: inadequate


<b>Miguel Sorolla</b>
65 000 US$, 18 years, inadequate form
Has disastrous experience and poor leadership abilities

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: wretched Passing: passable
Winger: inadequate Defending: poor
Scoring: passable Set Pieces: poor

<b>Alistair Innes (Current Trainee)</b>
52 000 US$, 17 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and passable leadership abilities

Stamina: wretched Keeper: weak
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: poor Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: wretched

<b>Aulay Duffus</b>
19 000 US$, 22 years, poor form
Has disastrous experience and poor leadership abilities [Head]

Stamina: passable Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: poor
Winger: inadequate Defending: wretched
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: inadequate

<b>Clinton Harrison</b>
16 000 US$, 19 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and poor leadership abilities

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: weak Passing: poor
Winger: poor Defending: inadequate
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: wretched

<b>Dom Brunner (on the wire)</b>
10 000 US$, 19 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: wretched Passing: wretched
Winger: inadequate Defending: wretched
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: weak

<b>Dragan Stanojevic</b>
40 000 US$, 20 years, poor form
Has disastrous experience and passable leadership abilities

Stamina: poor Keeper: weak
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: wretched
Winger: disastrous Defending: wretched
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: wretched

<b>Emmanuel Causse</b>
62 000 US$, 22 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities

Stamina: inadequate Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: passable Passing: poor
Winger: passable Defending: poor
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: poor

<b>Jérôme Vandesmet</b>
13 000 US$, 20 years, inadequate form
Has disastrous experience and wretched leadership abilities

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: poor
Winger: poor Defending: weak
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: wretched

<b>Lovro Bujan</b>
29 000 US$, 26 years, weak form
Has wretched experience and poor leadership abilities

Stamina: weak Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: poor Passing: wretched
Winger: passable Defending: inadequate
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: weak

<b>Raúl Menéndez</b>
52 000 US$, 19 years, poor form
Has disastrous experience and weak leadership abilities

Stamina: poor Keeper: inadequate
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: wretched Defending: disastrous
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: disastrous

<b>Vince Busby (Coach)</b>
0 US$, 40 years, weak form
Has formidable experience and weak leadership abilities

Stamina: disastrous Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: wretched
Winger: disastrous Defending: wretched
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: disastrous

[The_herd]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of training keeper, especially for new players. Getting good trainee's is very expensive and payoff takes too long.

If you willing to switch, I would consider picking up some 17-18yo passable PMers and train the hell out of them. If you're running the 3-5-2 then its a good idea to train PMing.

If you are dead-set on training keeper, I would pick up a better trainee than weak, it takes WAY too long to see a payoff for them. Always get trainees that are at least passable if you can. If not, then settle for inadequate, but don't go any lower than that.

Your team isn't too bad, I would stick to a strict training program and be patient, with a better midfield and better wingbacks your team shouldn't be too far from contending.

Good luck.

[terpkristin]

I'm not sure I agree with The_herd. While it is a valid point that it's best to pick a training program and stick with it for awhile, I switched from PM to GK training for about 7 weeks after 2 youth pulls of solid keepers (I thought to switch sometime after both pulls). Any which way, I trained them to excellent which didn't take overly long, then sold them (one for 547k the other for 660k) and used the profits to buy 2 new PM trainees (200k total) and get out of debt (I'm still 350k in the positive right now). Anyway I'm back to training PM now and plan to be for awhile, but doing the GK training temporarily definitely paid off.

Just my $.02...

~tk

[-Panther]

main thing I can say, is you desperately need some stamina training.

I'd replace Curley with Causse at winger despite the poor to disastrous exp difference. or try to find a cheap solid IM for like 40k and move Muzard to winger.

another thing you could look into is atleast 1 passable defender to replace your weak side wingback. they don't really need winger unless you want to play them offensive or normal just play them defensive. you can easily pick up a pass defender for 10k right now.

but your biggest need right now, I'd say is stamina.

[Doug5984]

Alistair Innes (Current Trainee)
52 000 US$, 17 years, passable form
Has disastrous experience and passable leadership abilities

Stamina: wretched Keeper: weak
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: poor Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: wretched

I would train this guy to inadaquate then sell him and then in the future when buying trainiees for GK dont go any lower than passable...no sense in training them up 2 levels to only increase your profit by $100k when you can train them up 2 from passable and make around $500k.

[-Panther]

training keeper is actually a good move for a new team. 2 good trainees are much cheaper than 6. and by season's end you'll be able to sell one trainee for the same you'd sell 2-3 PM trainees.

2 high passable keepers don't cost more than 6 decent passable IMs. by decent I mean no disastrous and wretched everything else. not to mention without stamina, IMs lose a lot of resale value.

end of season would be 2 formidable keepers to 6 excellent IMs.

1 formidable keeper actually brings in more than 2 excellent IMs right now as excellent IMs are going very cheap.

formidable keepers will almost always go for 900k-1.2mil

excellent middies right now are going for 250-500k and 500k is with passable secondaries. IM market is damn near dead right now until you get into outstanding+

although if the market ever stabilizes, keeper training becomes less profitable compared to other training. I personally thing keeper training is nothing more than a good temporary solution to fund transitions.

[Sublime]

Ok thanks a lot!! I think i'll get Innes up to Inad. sell him off and buy a good (pass) trainee and get him up to formidable. Panther how long do u suggest i train Stamina?

[Sublime]

Would he be a good trainee? and how long before i can expect him to reach excellent/formidable?

Nate Cloutier (16809500)
17 years, passable form, healthy
A pleasant guy who is temperamental and upright.
Has disastrous experience and disastrous leadership abilities.

Nationality: USA
Assessed value: 186 000 US$
Wage: 1 400 US$/week
Owner: Evil Squirrels
Warnings: 0


Stamina: wretched Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: poor

[The_herd]

Actually, you can easily get 6 passable IM trainee's for an average of 25k each if your patient, that comes out to 150k, roughly what it would cost for 2 passable keeper trainee's if your lucky.

I encourage people to train PM because you can train more people, leading to more money in the end.

Sublime, the above player is the kind you need to look for. The standard time for training keeper is 8 weeks with a solid coach. That guy looks like he is popped to passable recently or is a low passable YP. With a weak coach and 100% training you could probably coun't on him popping to solid in about 8 weeks.

[Doug5984]

Originally posted by Sublime
Would he be a good trainee? and how long before i can expect him to reach excellent/formidable?

Nate Cloutier (16809500)
17 years, passable form, healthy
A pleasant guy who is temperamental and upright.
Has disastrous experience and disastrous leadership abilities.

Nationality: USA
Assessed value: 186 000 US$
Wage: 1 400 US$/week
Owner: Evil Squirrels
Warnings: 0


Stamina: wretched Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: poor

He is 17 which is nice, but at $186 he is a very very low passable keeper- I would try to find a high passable (value around $250k).

[The_herd]

Don't forget to check foreign markets, you can get some steals there. My wife bought all her scoring trainee's from other countries and she made a killing on them.

Like Doug said, try to get one with a value of around 250k, but don't pay too much for one. The keeper market in Sverige appears to be pretty watered down right now and you might actually be able to get a good deal there.

[Sublime]

My current keep must be fairly close to popping then right? He's valued at 254k, but he's 22, so how long before a pop to excellent?

[-Panther]

keeper training takes about 5 weeks with a solid coach

keepers also pop to solid around 290-300k so I'd say he's a low passable.

not trying to fight with ya herd but I'm extremely against everyone saying 'run 3-5-2 and train playmaking because midfield is all that matters and you can train the most players. not saying you said all that but just using it as my basis.

PM trainig doesn't train the most players, defending does. PM training isn't the most profitable, scoring is. A striker and a IM with the same primary skill, and close secondaries will almost always result in the striker selling for more.

Most people don't rely on their winger slots when training PM so in essence they only train 6 players. Wingers aren't were the money is made in PM training unless you buy a good winger and make him a GOOD winger with GOOD PM but that will cost you a pretty penny.

I really can't say how long you should train stamina Sublime, I haven't looked at your division, circumstances, etc...

On average, most people train stamina 2 weeks at a time. I don't. I train 1 week at a time unless a specific player doesn't go up. Even then I might not train it back to back.

If you've got nothing to lose and are sure you'd still be able to avoid demotion, I'd train 2 weeks of it. But be warned, after you train it, it usually takes an extra week for the form hits to kick in and it usually last 2 weeks until they recover.

Personally, I'd train 1 week now and then do more in the post season. how many weeks depends on what you have at that time.

Of course, I'm not an expert so many others will probably tell you otherwise and some will be better advice.

my $.02

[The_herd]

Sorry about that, I always thought it was 8 for keeper.

17-19 yo would take 5 weeks to train then with a solid coach. It takes 1 extra week for every year a player is older than that. I'm not sure offhand what the value range is for a keeper popping to solid, but a 22yo takes 3 extra weeks to train to the next level.

[-Panther]

Sublime, if you have a weak coach, personally, I'd get me a passable coach with poor leadership for 78k. it'll put in about 30k in the hole, but the turn around difference on your trainees will more than make up for that.

[The_herd]

That I agree with.:D

[Sublime]

Ok, Thanks a lot guys for all the help!! More is still greatly appreciated :-D. Now Panther say i do go w/ pass coach, I'd be 30k in the hole w/ 2 home games a row coming up, should i along w/ the pass coach also buy a 17 y/o pass keeper

[The_herd]

I would say yes, with 2 home games coming up so you should be able to afford it. If you waited on the passable keeper that's just wasted training weeks.

[Sublime]

OK, Then i'll bite the bullet on the coach now, and am looking at a few International Keeps:

Nahuel Keller (16774935)
17 years, passable form, healthy
A nasty fellow who is tranquil and honest.
Has disastrous experience and poor leadership abilities.

Nationality: Argentina
Assessed value: 269 000 US$
Wage: 1 800 US$/week
Owner: C.A.Charly
Warnings: 0


Stamina: disastrous Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: wretched
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: disastrous


Domingo Vera (16793021)
17 years, passable form, healthy
A popular guy who is balanced and upright.
Has disastrous experience and inadequate leadership abilities.

Nationality: Argentina
Assessed value: 277 000 US$
Wage: 1 840 US$/week
Owner: parquefied
Warnings: 0


Stamina: poor Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: disastrous

Mattias Askenby (16825330)
17 years, passable form, healthy
A pleasant guy who is calm and dishonest.
Has disastrous experience and weak leadership abilities.

Nationality: Sverige
Assessed value: 249 000 US$
Wage: 1 700 US$/week
Owner: BATS AIK
Warnings: 0


Stamina: poor Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: wretched
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: disastrous

Mikael Hökkvist (16840172)
17 years, passable form, healthy
A sympathetic guy who is calm and upright.
Has disastrous experience and weak leadership abilities.

Nationality: Sverige
Assessed value: 251 000 US$
Wage: 1 700 US$/week
Owner: Team Kecke BK
Warnings: 0


Stamina: wretched Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: disastrous
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: disastrous Set Pieces: wretched


All are around 100k right now, the first w/ only a few hours to go, the others tomorrow and wed. The last guy is only at 30k but i'm sure it'll go up soon.

[The_herd]

Good luck and remember to be patient, avoid a bidding war's. In the end you always regret them.

[-Panther]

any of those keeper would be a very good trainee. just be willing to spend about 100k for a high passable 17. They could go more but I don't think they will this late HT time. If I had my pick, I'd take:

Vera since he's obviously highest value (Keller) and the next highest will most likely hit your TS.

But don't be too picky right now, if it's only 5-10k diff. get the best, if not, get whoever goes cheaper. Don't get into a 120k+ bidding war.

Keller & Vera will both most likely hit solid with 1 week training with a passable coach and 5+ Gk coaches.

Personally, I wouldn't go above 7-3 (GK/Asst.) as your outfielders form will plummit.

I'm still not convinced more than 5 will actually make much of a difference, not even a week, yet I still run 8-2 (Asst./GK) since I train scoring.

[sterlingice]

Unfortunately I don't have enough time to completely dissect your team, but I'll say this: you don't have much talent. If I were starting out, I see a grand total of one player who I could train: Sorolla. Seeing as how you only have one player on your entire roster worth training, decide what you want to train and stick with it. I started out with 3 solid playmakers, 2 of which were pretty young, so I trained midfield.

I've argued on many occasions: keeper is not a good long term strategy to build a team around. If anyone wants to debate this with me, I'll gladly do it- just not tonight. The simple defense: you have to know the market inside and out for all positions- you are training 2 players so you cannot afford to sell one for any less than maximum cost. Then you have to study the market extensively to decide who to bring in and maximize your bucks there, too, because your training regimen is not helping your team nearly as much as training an entire position. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's very hard. Yuma, a 6 season old team (and Jude's home squad), just sold their divine backup for $15M and is about to get a shot in the arm, but this is a team that has the best goalie in the entire game (USA, Sweden, anywhere) and it's in danger of being demoted to Div IV because the rest of his team is not on par with a typical Div III team.

Back to Sublime's case. Notice, I said it's not a viable long term strategy. It's great to make some quick bucks and I've also recommended it to many newer teams in the past. You can sneak an $80K high passable goalie, bump it in a week, and sell it for $200K. It's not always going to happen that smoothly, but neither is selling a middie for the price you want. It's going to kill your team spirit in the short run, but that resets at season's end anyways.

Train keeper the rest of this year- get some cash and get out of debt. Maybe even stay with training keeper until you get two guys up to excellent or formidable and get yourself a huge financial windfall ($500K a pop at exc or $1M at formidable). Then, Sublime, you must decide what you want your team to look like. Once you get that cash, if you want to do playmaking, get some trainees for that. Defense, do the same. Winger is now very viable and quite powerful if you can buy the right trainees. Offense is high risk, high reward- they cost a lot to buy but you get a nice payoff when you sell them. But first, decide how long you want to stick with keeper training then spend the cash from the proceeds to build up the rest of your team. You don't have much talent right now but, as I said, it will allow you to choose what path you want to take.

SI

[Mr. Wednesday]

I don't know what markets you're looking in, but... the big markets (Sverige, Schweiz, Argentina) have better selection but also tend to run higher prices.

[Doug5984]

If I was in your situation sublime- I would buy 2- 17 year old passable, train them both up to around 19 or 20 and sell one for a few million and keep the other to be your keeper forever. At that point you will have a much better idea of how the game works and what you need to do to impliment another training program, of one of the primary outfield positions- along with a few million to get that training program off the ground and get your team to a point where it is a competitive Div IV team.

[Sublime]

I noticed the bigger markets (the ones u mentioned) to be noticeably cheaper for 17 y/o w/ atleast 240k value

[Sublime]

thanks Doug, That's exactly what i've been thinking of doing...

[damnMikeBrown]

Keeper training stinks. world class defense < formidable attack. End of story.

I'm commited to it now, but every day, I ponder bailing out of it, buying some wings & switching to that. They may have made midfield less important, but defense still stinks.

[Mr. Wednesday]

You can push your profits into your midfield and your attack.

[Sublime]

Here's the Guy i ended up picking up:

Denis Frahm (16562667)
18 years, passable form, healthy
A controversial person who is balanced and honest.
Has disastrous experience and poor leadership abilities.

Nationality: Schweiz
Assessed value: 249 000 US$
Wage: 2 136 US$/week including 20% Bonus
Owner: Manchester Silver Bullets
Warnings: 0


Stamina: wretched Goaltending: passable
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: poor
Winger: disastrous Defending: disastrous
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: wretched

Career Goals: 0
Career Hattricks: 0
League goals this season: 0
Cup goals this season: 0

Unfortunately he is 18 yrs old...but he was the best i could get w/in a reasonable amount of money...90k to be exact. I thought that was a pretty good deal for him, am i wrong?

[sterlingice]

Not too bad of a buy, tho, I would think. I've never tried to buy young goalies, tho.

SI