Royals kick things off with Leo Nunez to the Fish for Mike Jacobs.

If it were not for the current makeup for the Royals, I'd like this deal for them.

Nunez for Jacobs is a good deal, team independent. Nunez was always hurt when they tried to make him a starter so the best he's going to be is a really good bullpen arm. However, the Royals, in theory, still have a nice back of the bullpen going into next year (Ramirez, Mahay, Soria) and bullpen arms always strike me as witchcraft- good one season, bad the next- so if you can get good value, do it. Jacobs is cheap, empty pop but still pop nonetheless. Guillen led the Royals with 20 homers last year, just to put things in perspective as to how bad the team was power-wise.

But you have to take roster construction into account and the Royals have way too many 1B/DH types already. Gload is still on the team as a bench guy but he's already under contract for 2009. No one is going to trade for him and they're on the hook for $2M. Shealy had a great September, with 7 homers and a good average- showing the form he had when he first came to KC in 2006. However, he was awful and injured for most of 2007 and will bring very little in trade so his value is better in place. Then there's Billy Butler who has shown great potential but is lazy. Still, he's only 22 and went .305/.341/.476 in the second half last year- you just can't give up on that. And Kila's waiting in the wings in AAA after mid 30s in homers last year. But, in short, not even counting Kila, you have Jacobs, Shealy, and Butler competing for 2 starting positions and Gload there to soak up other at bats.

There's talks of Teahen going places. He's valuable as a guy who can play 1B, 3B, and corner outfield competently with decent but not great hitting.

Also, any talk of Greinke... well, the Royals badly need to sign him this offseason. But there's no way he's going in any trade unless the Royals absolutely cannot lock him up. So we don't need the mlbtraderumors.com fan comment trades of mlb_scrub1, mediocre_prospect1, and low_minors_prospect1 for Greinke "because they're still building and need more pieces".

It's going to be a hugely important offseason for the Royals. How about other teams?

SI

I thought they got Jacobs to be the big half of a platoon at DH with Butler? Butler's "proven" he cannot hit righties as his line against them has sucked for two years now.

It's top 5 production at DH for whatever Jacobs gets in arbitration plus the minimum for Butler. I'd day that's a good deal for a live arm with little control.

Tigers enter a strange offseason. I think they'll be a .500 team next season as presently constructed, but they don't want to increase payroll.

Ideally they'd sign Chad Cordero to a minor league deal and see what he has left, or even an incentive laden deal with a club option. Ditto for Jason Varitek. I don't like him but if he can come here and platoon with Dusty Ryan, and help the Staff, well it's better then Inge. Again, it'd have to be an incentive laden deal but I doubt Boras does it.

The big story is will they deal Maggs. I hope so because we need to get younger and he is the most valuable commodity not named Miggy, Granderson , Verlander or Porcello. Magglio to Anaheim makes sense, especially if Tex leaves. He can do their OF/DH rotation with Vlad. Would they do Magglio for Wood/Adenhart? Probably not but that is the kind of deal the Tigs need.

Beyond that, who knows. They might go after Fuentes, but hes the only big time FA I can see them going for, and evne then I don't like it. We'll see though.

Has anyone heard anything about the Nationals? I haven't geared up on reading any of the blogs for the off season. I'm guess it will be a lot of prospects at best, and nothing at worst. I doubt they will make a splash on any big free agents.

Count me in as very curious to see what direction the Jays will go. They've got a lot of young talent coming up but desperately need a big stick at DH or 1B (depending on what they do with Overbay). A lot of decisions to be made on who to rest the offense on next season and whether or not they make a serious push to bring AJ back as the #2 behind Halladay. Comments by Roy this year make it sound like another distant third finish in the AL East or worse will pretty much mean he'll be looking to leave town in favor of a contender mean they'd better get their act in gear and get the pieces in place to make the man happy.

If it were me I'd try and bring Barajas back as the full time catcher and look for a #4 or 5 hitter for the DH role (I think another season with Cito brings Overbay back to the gap/doubles hitter he can be). So an opening day lineup of something like:

C: Barajas
1B: Overbay
2B: Hill
3B: Rolen
SS: MacDonald
LF: Lind
CF: Wells
RF: Rios
DH: ?

Use Snider to spell the OF and 1B with Scutaro as the utility guy on the infield. Inglett seems to do pretty well as a spot guy and can play IF or OF which is a nice luxury. Pitching wise they're pretty solid even without AJ back though some late season injuries could put them behind the 8 ball. Get that big stick for the middle of the order and give a lot of these guys more time with Cito and the offense *should* be there. Just nice having optimism about the manager though it is too bad JP is still kicking around.

The Indians need to trade for a good second baseman and then move Cabrera to short and Peralta to third. They also need to add another outfield bat, another starter and a good closer and decide between Martinez and Shoppach for the starting catcher and deal whichever one they don't have starting.

Use Snider to spell the OF

Travis Snider is the real deal.

Has anyone heard anything about the Nationals? I haven't geared up on reading any of the blogs for the off season. I'm guess it will be a lot of prospects at best, and nothing at worst. I doubt they will make a splash on any big free agents.

I've heard speculation (Was on MLBTR.com a while ago) that the Nats could potentially make a run for Matt Holliday in a trade.

I've heard speculation (Was on MLBTR.com a while ago) that the Nats could potentially make a run for Matt Holliday in a trade.

Interesting. At the beginning of the season it seemed that the Nationals were overloaded with outfielders, but by the middle of the season Paul Lo Duca was out there. The Nats have a LOT of outfield busts to deal with.

Pretty much, the Nats weak spots are:

* Starting pitching
* Middle Infield
* First Base
* LF, RF

And there's a question mark on the closer. :) I don't see the post season for quite a few years (decades?). I'm just glad they reduced our season ticket seats by 30%. :-P

I am not sure how FA will go this year. I think CC and Tex will be Yanks, Lowe will go back to Boston, KRod stays in Anaheim, Fuentes lands in Detroit and that is all I'd say to be sure for now.

I have no idea where Burnett and Sheets land. Atlanta for one of them, maybe? I dunno. A lot of intrigue though.

Travis Snider is the real deal.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I'd prefer they not go with Snider/Lind as their LF/DH combo. Add a big stick for 1-2 years while these guys acclimate themselves to the pro game and don't thrust them into the forefront from the start. I hope both turn out to be legit MLB hitters (and think Cito et al is a great situation for them to come into) but don't rely on it.

I would love to see the Angels keep Texeira. The one thing they need is another bat. They let KRod walk and move Shields to the closing role.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I'd prefer they not go with Snider/Lind as their LF/DH combo. Add a big stick for 1-2 years while these guys acclimate themselves to the pro game and don't thrust them into the forefront from the start. I hope both turn out to be legit MLB hitters (and think Cito et al is a great situation for them to come into) but don't rely on it.

I think Snider is already a better ML hitter than Lind. He's just that talented. I do agree that the Jays need to add another outfield bat to avoid relying on their young guys too soon but, then again, what exactly are they relying on them to do? It's not like the Jays have a shot at anything the next few years anyway. Toronto is a few years away from a contending team anyway, what with the lack of offense in that lineup and the way the coaching staff mismanaged pitchers the last few years, so they might as well go into a full rebuild.

I think Snider is already a better ML hitter than Lind. He's just that talented. I do agree that the Jays need to add another outfield bat to avoid relying on their young guys too soon but, then again, what exactly are they relying on them to do? It's not like the Jays have a shot at anything the next few years anyway. Toronto is a few years away from a contending team anyway, what with the lack of offense in that lineup and the way the coaching staff mismanaged pitchers the last few years, so they might as well go into a full rebuild.

We'll have to disagree on that one. A healthy squad next year with a couple smart moves during the offseason isn't very far off. Even going the route of starting Snider over Lind in LF, if they opened the season with:

Hill, Rios, Wells, DH, Rolen, Overbay, Snider, Barajas, MacDonald

This sort of lineup would only get a bonus if Rios develops a power stroke and the hope would be that Snider or Lind would develop well enough to eventually take the 5 spot over from Rolen (or even Overbay in that spot to split up the left handed bats). Given their performance since Cito took over I see no reason not to expect results from the team.

I'll probably be disappointed in the end, but I don't think they're that far off.

I'll probably be disappointed in the end, but I don't think they're that far off.

In truth, I think the Rays aren't that bad of a team. I just don't see them getting past Boston, Tampa Bay and the Yankees in the division the next three or four years.

The Reds are looking at possibly signing Mark Mulder. Not sure why but if he wanted to come very cheap I say give him a shot.

The Indians need to trade for a second baseman

How does Luis Castillo sound?

How does Luis Castillo sound?

Brian Roberts or Kelly Johnson only, please.

Brewers name Ken Macha the manager, and surprisingly Dale Sveum may take a coaching spot with the team after being passed over for the managerial position.

Given that Doug Melvin narrowed it down to Macha, Bob Brenly and Willie Randolph, I'm happy with the choice. Brenly would've been a disaster.

Glad to see Tatis re upd for 1.7 mil, he provided a nice spark.

I know there is no way the Mets sigh KRod with 10 mil still to come to Wagner, but they need to do something for the pen and the pitching staff in general. I doubt they bring Perez back, but I would love to see them make a move for Burnett or even Sheets.

I thought they got Jacobs to be the big half of a platoon at DH with Butler? Butler's "proven" he cannot hit righties as his line against them has sucked for two years now.

You're correct. Moore brought Jacobs in to face right-handed pitching. Moore has already mentioned that Shealy's trade value is up right now after his big finish last year. He'll be traded. Gload will be the Royals' utility guy, as he can play both corner infield positions as well as the outfield. He doesn't factor in at 1B barring injuries. The Hawaiian player in AAA likely will get another year down there, probably to learn a new position so they can fit him into the lineup.

I think Teahan is the odd man out, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as Moore reportedly has some very good interest in him.

For a team that struggles in the OBP department, bringing Mike Jacobs on board only makes the problem worse. Even against RHP he managed only a measly .315 OBP this year.

The power is nice but the poor OBP seriously deflates any value Jacobs would have.

The Reds are looking at possibly signing Mark Mulder. Not sure why but if he wanted to come very cheap I say give him a shot.

Eric Milton, anyone?

Eric Milton, anyone?

I'd hope Mulder wouldn't be expecting $8 million/year :)

Or that the Reds were dumb enough to give him $8 million/year.

For a team that struggles in the OBP department, bringing Mike Jacobs on board only makes the problem worse. Even against RHP he managed only a measly .315 OBP this year.

The power is nice but the poor OBP seriously deflates any value Jacobs would have.

Dayton Moore talked about that in this morning's article about the trade. We'll see if the coaching and GM are right/wrong.......

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/867789.html

Jacobs was often pulled for a defensive replacement, but the primary knock on him is his low on-base percentage. He walked just 36 times last year, and his .299 on-base percentage was the seventh-lowest in baseball among players with 500 or more plate appearances.

Moore, manager Trey Hillman and new hitting coach Kevin Seitzer have publicly tabbed improving on-base percentage as a primary way to improve a weak offense.

“I don’t walk a lot,” Jacobs said. “I’m up there to swing the bat; I’m up there to drive runs in and be productive that way. Is it something I’d like to work on? Absolutely.”

That on-base percentage was a career low for Jacobs, as was his .247 batting average. Moore hinted that Seitzer saw some things on video that he thinks show a potential for improving Jacobs’ on-base percentage.

Or that the Reds were dumb enough to give him $8 million/year.

They gave Corey Patterson $3 million.

They are definitely dumb enough to do some stupid crap.

Dayton Moore talked about that in this morning's article about the trade. We'll see if the coaching and GM are right/wrong.......

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/867789.html

I guess Mike Jacobs is better than what they were trotting out there but I have to think the Royals may have jumped the gun.

My Brewers will be listening to offers for Prince Fielder.... Sure, it'd take a hell of a lot more to get Fielder than it did Jacobs. But you get what you pay for.

They gave Corey Patterson $3 million.

They are definitely dumb enough to do some stupid crap.

Wayne Krivsky gave Corey Patterson $3 million. I'd hope Walt Jocketty isn't as dumb as Wayne Krivsky.

I guess Mike Jacobs is better than what they were trotting out there but I have to think the Royals may have jumped the gun.

My Brewers will be listening to offers for Prince Fielder.... Sure, it'd take a hell of a lot more to get Fielder than it did Jacobs. But you get what you pay for.

Nunez was an injury away from ending his career. He's been injury prone in the past, so to get a player like this for him was a pretty good move IMO. Moore similarly tossed out Dotel last year a week or two before he got injured for the same reason. I'm going to trust Moore's judgement on this one.

Brian Roberts or Kelly Johnson only, please.

Damn it, my joke was missed.

Nunez was an injury away from ending his career. He's been injury prone in the past, so to get a player like this for him was a pretty good move IMO. Moore similarly tossed out Dotel last year a week or two before he got injured for the same reason. I'm going to trust Moore's judgement on this one.

I'm not saying the Royals gave up a king's ransom for Jacobs. But in terms of actually making the Royals a contender, Mike Jacobs is not helping matters.

Simply put, having a guy that couldn't even eclipse a .300 OBP last year should not be getting the bulk of the playing time in a corner spot. Much less a corner spot where the most offense is expected.

He could quite possibly be the worst first baseman in all of baseball according to Keith Law. I'm not sure how he could possibly be worse than Prince Fielder, but hey, I usually respect Law's opinion quite a bit.

Law also notes in his latest blog entry that the Marlins would've likely just non-tendered Jacobs in December so they probably didn't even need to give up Nunez for Jacobs.

It just doesn't make sense for only the third team in the AL to draw less than 400 walks since 1931 to pick up Mike Jacobs.

The Royals are making a big problem even worse.

I am one of the few Royal fans that likes this trade. And here is why (stealing from someone else on another board):

"Jacobs power numbers stack up against nearly every other hitter in the Majors. He homered every 14.9 at bats in 2008, which ranked 10th in the Majors and third behind preeminent sluggers Ryan Howard and Albert Pujols among first basemen. Jacobs played half his games at Dolphin Stadium, which is 345 down the right field line and 385 to the alley and plays extremely tough for left-handed power hitters, as evidenced by the Marlins home run record for a left-handed batter standing at 33 by Carlos Delgado. Jacobs fell just 1 shy of that last season with only 477 at bats.

Just a note here, Jacobs posted a .378 on-base percentage in July this past season and a solid .335 pct. from July on."

As I said in the first post, I'm torn.

Fighter of Foo has the best case scenario with a Butler/Jacobs platoon where you have, say, Shealy and Butler in the lineup against lefties at 1B/DH and then Jacobs and Gload or someone else against righties. Platooning your DH seems like a waste of a roster spot, but when you don't have the talent, you do what you can. It was embarassing for Ross Gload to be a red hot Ryan Shealy September away from 400 AB but he's useful off the bench for 100-200 AB per season.

MBBF was dead on with Nunez being "an injury away from ending his career". He could be a great 8th inning guy or maybe even a closer, given a chance. However, he is badly injury prone and KC has a surplus in the bullpen with Ramirez, Mahay, and Soria for next year. And, again, there's the witchcraft nature of bullpens (and I'm a bit worried about Mahay being overworked last year).

In the end, I'm good with the trade from the perspective of Nunez for Jacobs is a good swap straight up for KC. However, if it forces them to sell low on Butler or Kila or give up on Shealy, then this deal falls decidedly into the "bad things" category.

SI

I'd hope Mulder wouldn't be expecting $8 million/year :)

Or that the Reds were dumb enough to give him $8 million/year.

For the first time in my adult life the Reds don't need to sign a pitcher. Right now Harang, Arroyo, Cueto and Voltron are guaranteed spots and Owings/Bailey/Thompson/Ramirez will be fine for the 5.

Not sure if anyone saw Keith Law's blog, but he absolutely panned the Jacobs move saying it was wrong and Jacobs was looked at by KC as an Everyday 1B when he obviously isn't.

Also he said the Marlins wouldn't have tendered him.

For the first time in my adult life the Reds don't need to sign a pitcher. Right now Harang, Arroyo, Cueto and Voltron are guaranteed spots and Owings/Bailey/Thompson/Ramirez will be fine for the 5.

Owings will end up making the staff (maybe as starter or maybe as long relief) just because of his value as a PH. I think he had something like 2 GW hits in September alone.

Owings will end up making the staff (maybe as starter or maybe as long relief) just because of his value as a PH. I think he had something like 2 GW hits in September alone.

I wish they could have sent him to winter ball as an outfielder to see how that would work. There are certainly spots available for guys that can hit on this team.

Philadelphia Phillies Expected Free Agents based on: Top 50 MLB Free Agents 2009 | MLB Free Agents | Top 50 Baseball Free Agents (http://www.sportscity.com/mlb/top-50-mlb-free-agents)

1B Wes Helms (Gone) - Shows him as on Philly, but he was traded before the end of last season.

3B Pedro Feliz (Back) - I think he'll be in higher demand, but I'd bet we'll get him re-signed. Really solid fielder, and has proven he can get a hit or two.

OF Pat Burrell (Gone) - Writing was on the wall when he led the victory parade. Believe it or not, I'd like to see him back. However, I doubt the Phillies will pay him anything close to what he wants. By signing and starting Shane Victorino and Jayson Werth, I think that Philly's philosophy is that outfielders are easy to come by. I'm not really sure where he'd go, but I imagine he'd fit in well with an AL team. As a last word, when you draft a guy first overall, the goal is that he will help lead you to a title before he leaves. While Burrell's definitely had his struggles, we wouldn't have won a title or survived the season without his performance in 2008. God speed Pat-the-Bat.

P Kris Benson (Gone) - Still not sure he's even on the team.

P Jaime Moyer (Back) - Philadelphia native and the team stuck by him when many others thought he was gone. He'll definitely need a raise and potentially two more years, but I feel pretty confidence Moyer will be back in Philly next year.

P Scott Eyre (Gone) - Although I've read that many expect him back, and I'd like him back, I get the feeling he'll get an offer from someone and move on. Plus, I don't rule out Philadelphia trying to get another lefty bullpen guy in the off-season.

P Tom Gordon (Gone) - Just had surgery on Oct. 15th to repair the ulnar. I wonder if a team will even sign him this year?

OF So Taguchi (Gone) - I think Philly might look to improve their bench elsewhere.

For those who are unaware, potentially the biggest move this off-season was already made with Reuben Amaro Jr. getting the GM job after Pat Gillick retired. Amaro's a strong candidate and I think as long as Mike Arbuckle sticks around, we're in good shape. Word is, Amaro was offered the Houston GM job last year (before former Philly GM Ed Wade received it), but turned it down after Gillick told Amaro he'd replace him in 2009.

As far as expected moves,

-Despite what I said above about the "Phillie's outfielder philosophy", the team was apparently really close to getting Matt Holiday last year. What killed the talks was the unwillingness to part with Shane Victorino and two prospects (Carrasco and Happ). Don't be surprised if Philly sneaks into the discussions and is able to get Holliday.

-I think there's more smoke than fire on the Manny Ramierz rumors. There's a part of me that would really like to dance with the devil on Ramierez (Utley-Howard-Ramirez = OMFG), but I think it's just too much of a risk with our current chemistry. If we lost the World Series, I'd probably see it more. But with a win, I think the temptation will be much less.

-The Phillies should actually be buyers on the FA market. Burrell's contract was an albatross and Abreu's contract comes fully off the books this year. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see us pick up a few players.

-Assuming Moyer is re-signed, I think Philly feels pretty good about their rotation. The wild-card is J.A. Happ. If he's ready to be the #5, then I don't see us being big spenders there. However, I think we will be in the running for Brian Fuentes (assuming the Mets don't blow us out of the water).

-In the lineup, we need another outfielder and power off the bench. Adam Dunn is probably too expensive but Bobby Kielty might be a good fit here.

I'm now taking requests to claim my team is the team to beat over their team.

For the first time in my adult life the Reds don't need to sign a pitcher. Right now Harang, Arroyo, Cueto and Voltron are guaranteed spots and Owings/Bailey/Thompson/Ramirez will be fine for the 5.

I'm out of the Reds information loop, but I may have to root for them if they have a guy named "Voltron". If I were him, I'd legally drop my first name and just go by Voltron from here on out. Totally awesome.

His name is actually Edinson Volquez, but he was so good this year he earned Voltron as his nickname.

I may go to more Braves games if I don't have to watch Chuck James pitch anymore. That and Kelly Johnson steal ABs. Maybe they should call him Marcus Giles, Jr.

His name is actually Edinson Volquez, but he was so good this year he earned Voltron as his nickname.

It's also a precursor to his future after Dusty Baker. IE when he actually has a robotic elbow due to abuse.

If I just clap hard enough Dusty won't destroy our pitchers.

Also, in an "eh" move, the Royals are bringing back Miguel Olivo in an attempt to further destroy their team OBP. That said, it probably means John Buck will be traded or waived. Not sure why you keep the older guy when they're almost identical players- Olivo can throw guys out (Buck threw out something like 1 of 35 base stealers last year) and has a little more pop (.411 to .398 career SLG) while Buck handles pitchers a little better and gets on base a little more (.298 to .275 OBP). They're both righties and Buck is two years younger- both would have cost about ~2.5M this upcoming year either from arbitration (Buck) or club option (Olivo).

SI

Not sure if anyone saw Keith Law's blog, but he absolutely panned the Jacobs move saying it was wrong and Jacobs was looked at by KC as an Everyday 1B when he obviously isn't.

Also he said the Marlins wouldn't have tendered him.Keith Law was right. Mike Jacobs is a terrible player, and the Royals have like 6 guys at the "positions" he can play (I'm not sure I'd count him as a 1B, but technically he did play there.) Maybe you can move Billy Butler to SS.

WooHoo! Another gold glove for me, and one for my boy David Wright!

Nice to see Brandon Phillips nab a gold glove.

Just a rumor, but Jimmy Rollins may be available for the right price...

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2008/11/05/hot-stove-thoughts-furcal-a-sensible-target-for-giants/

EDIT:Link

Just a rumor, but Jimmy Rollins may be available for the right price...

Hot Stove thoughts: Furcal a sensible target for Giants | Extra Baggs (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2008/11/05/hot-stove-thoughts-furcal-a-sensible-target-for-giants/)

EDIT:Link

Not a huge shock, to be honest. I think there is some concern that Rollins peaked offensively in 2007 and will soon start declining. However, he's still very valuble defensively and I'm sure Rollins getting traded would kill just about any chance of Howard re-signing with the team.

I think the bigger issue is that I just don't see a team blowing us away with an offer for the same issue above. The only "real" untouchable players on the Phillies are Utley and Hamels. Just about anyone else can be had for the "right" price.

What???? Derek Jeter didn't get the Gold Glove? Bullshit.

LOL!

Rumor is that Manny has been offered a contract by the Dodgers for around 24-26M per year, but another rumor is that it's just a 2 year deal with an option or something. Why would he do that, it seems like a silly offer. It really only pays him "marginally" more than he was set to make with his declined option anyway.

What???? Derek Jeter didn't get the Gold Glove? Bullshit.

It's cool, he'll have less competition at 1B in a couple years.

Any Yanks fans?

Mike Cameron/Melky Cabrera rumors?

I'm torn. Cameron was lot more valuable to the Brewers than anybody gives credit. But getting CF is a black hole long term for the Crew. No, Tony Gwynn Jr. is not the answer. Question is, is Melky Cabrera basically Tony Gwynn Jr.?

didnt the brewers just pick up an option on Cameron?

Any Yanks fans?

Mike Cameron/Melky Cabrera rumors?

I'm torn. Cameron was lot more valuable to the Brewers than anybody gives credit. But getting CF is a black hole long term for the Crew. No, Tony Gwynn Jr. is not the answer. Question is, is Melky Cabrera basically Tony Gwynn Jr.?

Cameron is Sabathias BFF I do believe. Wonder if that is part of it.

Melky is decent but not great. Hes probably tapped offensivley but is a solid defender. Honestly, it is probably a wash. Cameron has more pop, Melky will hit for a better average. Defensivley both are good but Melky is probably a bit better.

Melky's pretty shitty. You can find a comparable defender who can actually hit. I wouldn't consider your CF position no longer a "black hole" if it's filled by him.

didnt the brewers just pick up an option on Cameron?

Yessir, $10 million.

Well, the other part of the rumor had Betemit possibly going to Milwaukee also. Not that that excites me too much either.

Phils making a run at Holliday?

When does open season on fa's start.

Expanding on yesterday's Mike Cameron to the Yankees rumors, by last night I was hearing Ian Kennedy's name and I wondered if Brian Cashman had gone completely nuts.

Apparently not. I'm pretty sure it didn't come from the Milwaukee papers but whoever started that rumor is pretty dumb.

Milwaukee will wait to see what Sabathia does before they do anything with Cameron.

Phils making a run at Holliday?

Almost happened at the trade deadline last season, but the Rockies wanted too much. I think they wanted Victorino, Carrasco or Happ, and their top catching prospect (whose name escapes me at the moment) and the Phillies balked.

I'd love to have Holliday, but it depends on the asking price. You'd think that it should drop a little bit because Holliday is a free agent at the end of 09' and his agent is Boras. But if it still costs Werth or Victornio and Carrasco, I'd still balk.

While I do hope that the Phils are aggressive this off-season, I hope it's more in the FA market than trade market. The core of the defending World Champions is signed at set until after 2010, so the focus of the team should be improving the mediocre farm system in case we have to let Madson and/or Howard walk by then.

What???? Derek Jeter didn't get the Gold Glove? Bullshit.In a shocking upset, the "Derek Jeter Memorial Great Hitting, Terrible Fielding AL Shortstop Gold Glove" went to Michael Young this year. Beyond that, Torii Hunter? Name recognition. Nate McLouth? Why?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3686992

Interesting stuff. Two guys from India get a tryout in front of major league scouts.

Baseball would be well served to try and expand interest in China and India and Asia as a whole. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan have already produced big leaguers and I'm all for continuing to mine for talent in places you wouldn't think had any.

Nate McLouth? Why?

Gritty white guy that made only one error.

Gritty white guy that made only one error.Also 40 runs below league average according to the Fielding Bible. Seriously, how many outfielders make more than say, 3 errors in a season? Other than Jose Canseco.

Also 40 runs below league average according to the Fielding Bible. Seriously, how many outfielders make more than say, 3 errors in a season? Other than Jose Canseco.

Of course. Does anybody take Gold Gloves (or any award, for that matter) seriously?

Awards are a joke.

Of course. Does anybody take Gold Gloves (or any award, for that matter) seriously?

Awards are a joke.Sportswriters, broadcasters and Derek Jeter fanboys? :)

Sportswriters, broadcasters and Derek Jeter fanboys? :)

And, unfortunately, dumb owners that let GMs pay salaries based on them.

edited wording

Nate McLouth? Why?

One error all year, i believe. He was still well below average, though.

Also 40 runs below league average according to the Fielding Bible. Seriously, how many outfielders make more than say, 3 errors in a season? Other than Jose Canseco.

25, in 2008.

Delmon Young
Carlos Quentin
Adam Dunn
Fred Lewis
Raul Ibanez
Jason Bay
Carlos Gomez
BJ Upton
Willy Taveras
Lastings Milledge
Michael Bourn
Josh Hamilton
Aaron Rowand
Curtis Granderson
Melky Cabrera
Rich Ankiel
Nick Swisher
Gary Matthews, Jr.
Brad Hawpe
Brian Giles
Corey Hart
Magglio Ordonez
Kosuke Fukodome
Jeremy Hermida
Jeff Francouer

Just be glad you didn't say "make 3 errors or more per year"
That would have added 9 more to the list.

As said before, end-season awards are pretty much a joke. So, I'm not too riled up about that.

The bigger travesty is that they are taken heavily into account for HoF selection.

in 2008.

Adam Dunn
Fred Lewis
Jason Bay
Willy Taveras
Lastings Milledge
Michael Bourn
Aaron Rowand
Rick Ankiel
Brad Hawpe
Brian Giles
Corey Hart
Kosuke Fukodome
Jeremy Hermida
Jeff Francouer

Just be glad you didn't say "make 3 errors or more per year"
That would have added 9 more to the list.Shurg. I'm not arguing with anyone here (not like anyone's defending the GG), I'm just trying to figure out how/why a plurality of sportswriters picked Nate McLouth on their own. There are ~25-30 NL outfielders who "only had" 2 errors or less, ~10 centerfielders, and McLouth had no reputation as far as I knew. I guess it really is a David Eckstein-hustling white guy award.

That's why my baseball career never progressed. I had the white part down, but I didn't have the hustling part down.

Apparently the Nats are going to offer Tex his 10 years, 200 mil to bring him home. That is quite an interesting development if it winds up being true.

Apparently the Nats are going to offer Tex his 10 years, 200 mil to bring him home. That is quite an interesting development if it winds up being true.

Good lord, is "Tex" a nickname for some new, amazing player I've never heard of?

I've always know him him as Tex, was that not an acceptable nickname?

I think he was saying that he's not worth that much money.

I've always know him him as Tex, was that not an acceptable nickname?

I think he's saying Tex isn't worth the money, which he isn't.

At least with a ten year deal he might be there when the Nats finally turn things around.

Local rumor has the Angels offering Teix a 6 to 7 year deal at $20 M per. At least for now. No one's saying if they will go higher when he hits the market.

Matt Holliday to the A's. No details yet, per Heyman on WFAN.

There goes that far fetched dream. :)

Matt Holliday to the A's. No details yet, per Heyman on WFAN.

crap, ESPN was reporting over the weekend that the Cards were their #1 choice :(

crap, ESPN was reporting over the weekend that the Cards were their #1 choice :(

Cards backed out. Price was too steep. I wonder what Oakland gave up? They have tons of depth, so I am sure Colorado made out nicely, but I am suprised the A's will take on the salary.

2:00pm: Ken Rosenthal chimes in. The deal may not be finalized for about 48 hours. Players discussed over the weekend: Carlos Gonzalez, Huston Street, and Smith.

Smith being P Greg Smith.

Cards backed out. Price was too steep. I wonder what Oakland gave up? They have tons of depth, so I am sure Colorado made out nicely, but I am suprised the A's will take on the salary.

bummer

No major surprise. Geo Soto wins NL ROY.

Evan Longoria wins the AL.

Ever since reading Moneyball, when I hear trades or trade rumours involving the As I think that Billy Beane somehow conned the other team into a bad trade. :)

Looks like Smith, Street and Gonzalez will head to Colorado in exchange for Holliday.

I like the move for the A's. I am not sold on Street, but Smith and Gonzalez could be good pieces.

The Padres have said Peavy will likely be traded soon, to either the Braves, Cubs, or Dodgers. Even with Peavy the Braves still need some help, they have to do something about the outfield especially.

Why trade Peavy??

I think it's a good trade for the A's, predicated on the Angels not retaining Teixeira. I think that the A's could compete, and get their 2 picks after Holliday leaves.

What do the Angels have to do with whether it's a good trade for Oakland?

What do the Angels have to do with whether it's a good trade for Oakland?

Makes the West winnable for Oakland. Angels could lose Tex and KRod and their OF isn't getting younger.

The Padres have said Peavy will likely be traded soon, to either the Braves, Cubs, or Dodgers. Even with Peavy the Braves still need some help, they have to do something about the outfield especially.

I cant imagine the Dodegrs would give what the Pads want.

What do the Angels have to do with whether it's a good trade for Oakland?

I would imagine its because they play in the same division and without Tex the A's can maybe compete.

There's no need to win the division. Just win 95 games. If the Angels decide to keep Tex and KRod so be it.

Looks like Smith, Street and Gonzalez will head to Colorado in exchange for Holliday.

I like the move for the A's. I am not sold on Street, but Smith and Gonzalez could be good pieces.

Wow. Living in the Denver area but a Sox fan and I got to say if I was a Rockies fan I would be fucking pissed for what they got. If it is true they got Street, Smith, and Gonzalez for Holiday they got screwed. The talk fpor a while here is the owners here are only interested in making money. Now I know everyone once to get paid but at least many owners at least try to win. That is not the case from everything I have seen, It is really sad because Rocky fans are very good fans and the fact they support this team year after year points to that. But, also the owners know the fans here are a little naive and no matter what fans will come out to the games with there kids since people here are really worried that the Rockies will just pick up and move. My advice to fans is grow a pair and boycott the Rockies until these owners start to build a better product.

Some conflicting reports on who is in the deal. Sounds like Gonzalez and Smith are for sure, but it could be Street or Ryan Sweeney as the third piece.

I fully expect all the talk of the Nationals getting a big name FA will all fall flat. Sigh.

Wow. Living in the Denver area but a Sox fan and I got to say if I was a Rockies fan I would be fucking pissed for what they got. If it is true they got Street, Smith, and Gonzalez for Holiday they got screwed. The talk fpor a while here is the owners here are only interested in making money. Now I know everyone once to get paid but at least many owners at least try to win. That is not the case from everything I have seen, It is really sad because Rocky fans are very good fans and the fact they support this team year after year points to that. But, also the owners know the fans here are a little naive and no matter what fans will come out to the games with there kids since people here are really worried that the Rockies will just pick up and move. My advice to fans is grow a pair and boycott the Rockies until these owners start to build a better product.

I actually think they did pretty well, all things considered. Holliday's home/road splits are pretty dramatic, plus is agent is Boras, so he was a goner either way. They got a solid enough bullpen arm to replace Fuentes, a young pitcher in Greg Smith that they can control for the next 5-6 years, and an outfielder in Gonzalez that has the chance to be a damn fine player and is only 23. I'm surprised the A's actually made the deal for him. It's so un-A's like.

I actually think they did pretty well, all things considered. Holliday's home/road splits are pretty dramatic, plus is agent is Boras, so he was a goner either way. They got a solid enough bullpen arm to replace Fuentes, a young pitcher in Greg Smith that they can control for the next 5-6 years, and an outfielder in Gonzalez that has the chance to be a damn fine player and is only 23. I'm surprised the A's actually made the deal for him. It's so un-A's like.

I have to disagree that its un-A's like. This is the exact type of deal Beane was making when the A's were contenders earlier this decade. The A's payroll is expected to increase to $80 million next season and they're going to make a run at signing Furcal. This puts them in excellent shape and if things go wrong Beane can shop Holliday at the deadline or let him walk and take the 2 draft picks.

Greg Smith is a soft tosser that is probably going to get killed Colorado. Scouts have been down on Gonzalez for a couple years because of his work ethic. He simply hasn't improved the past couple years and was overmatched last year when he was called up. Street is the guy with serious value and he's an upgrade over Fuentes, but he's still a closer.

Holliday's splits last season:

Home: .332/.413/.584
Away: .308/.405/.486

There is a split, but just about every team in the league would line up to make the deal the A's made for a 29 year old OFer with that line away from Colorado.

The Rockies should have done better.

I have to disagree that its un-A's like. This is the exact type of deal Beane was making when the A's were contenders earlier this decade. The A's payroll is expected to increase to $80 million next season and they're going to make a run at signing Furcal. This puts them in excellent shape and if things go wrong Beane can shop Holliday at the deadline or let him walk and take the 2 draft picks.

Greg Smith is a soft tosser that is probably going to get killed Colorado. Scouts have been down on Gonzalez for a couple years because of his work ethic. He simply hasn't improved the past couple years and was overmatched last year when he was called up. Street is the guy with serious value and he's an upgrade over Fuentes, but he's still a closer.

Holliday's splits last season:

Home: .332/.413/.584
Away: .308/.405/.486

There is a split, but just about every team in the league would line up to make the deal the A's made for a 29 year old OFer with that line away from Colorado.

The Rockies should have done better.

I must confess ignorance to the A's payroll situation, and I guess I was just referencing the A's moves of the past couple years where they were the ones unloading the soon to be free agents for young talent. I definitely think it's a great deal for them because, as you mentioned, they can either snag 2 draft picks or flip him at the deadline if they're out of contention.

I do still like the deal for Colorado, though. I don't really know what more they could have gotten from other teams. I'd much rather have this package than the proposed deal with the Cardinals involving Ludwick, Schumaker and Boggs. I think Gonzalez will still develop into a pretty nice player, as well.

Holliday is a career .280/.348/.455 hitter away from Coors, and while he's better than that, he's not a superstar by any means. I think this is a pretty good deal for both teams. Colorado gets some nice young players in Street and Gonzalez (I agree that Smith will probably get knocked around), and the A's add some much needed pop to their lineup without parting with any of their top prospects.

5:01pm: Scott Miller of CBSSports.com says the Rockies are prepared to turn around and trade Street to another team.

*cough*Mets*cough* ;)

SI

Scott Olsen was just traded to the Nat's

Scott Olsen was just traded to the Nat's

Now this trade looks like an absolute steal for the Nationals.

Yeah, I like that deal for the Nats. MLBTradeRumors had a great summation of this deal: "I have to say, I thought the Marlins would get more for these two players. There's not really a sure thing in the bunch. Did Jim Bowden pull a heist, or was this the true market value of these two players? Olsen's peripheral stats weren't great this year, while Willingham has back problems."

SI

Young pitcher from the Marlins... does he have injury problems?

Young pitcher from the Marlins... does he have injury problems?

No but he had personal issues in the past but played without incident (I believe) this season. It may have had something to do with his inclusion in the deal, especially for such a low price.

Didn't he mess up his hand beating up a Gatorade cooler?

Makes the West winnable for Oakland. Angels could lose Tex and KRod and their OF isn't getting younger.

I'm a homer, so take it for what this is worth. Plus, the A's are one of those teams that can always get in the mix and be unexpectedly good. You certainly can't count them out.

All that said, the Angels are still the best run organization in the division, with the deepest pockets and the best minor league system. They already have replacements in place for K-Rod and Teix (they might not be as good, but they won't be bad), and they have had too many outfielders for three years now. And losing, what $30-40 M off their payroll with the assumed loss of the above, and other players, like Rivera, Garland, GA, etc. means they have all that money to spend. And everyone knows they'll spend it.

Let's just say the A's are going to have to be damn good to beat that soon. Or make some moves that unexpectedly accelerate the rate at which they are returning to contender status. Certainly a move for Holliday qualifies, but all of those players being moved were at least somewhat significant in the A's return to prominence.

I'm a homer, so take it for what this is worth. Plus, the A's are one of those teams that can always get in the mix and be unexpectedly good. You certainly can't count them out.

All that said, the Angels are still the best run organization in the division, with the deepest pockets and the best minor league system. They already have replacements in place for K-Rod and Teix (they might not be as good, but they won't be bad), and they have had too many outfielders for three years now. And losing, what $30-40 M off their payroll with the assumed loss of the above, and other players, like Rivera, Garland, GA, etc. means they have all that money to spend. And everyone knows they'll spend it.

Let's just say the A's are going to have to be damn good to beat that soon. Or make some moves that unexpectedly accelerate the rate at which they are returning to contender status. Certainly a move for Holliday qualifies, but all of those players being moved were at least somewhat significant in the A's return to prominence.

I still think the Angels win, I am just saying why the move makes sense for the A's for next year. If there is any year to win the West, it's next because the Angels have so many good, young players.

I still think the Angels win, I am just saying why the move makes sense for the A's for next year. If there is any year to win the West, it's next because the Angels have so many good, young players.

Yeah, I could see that. Catch them before they improve more or sign some big star (since if they fail to get Teix, they probably won't splurge on anyone else), at least not this offseason. I don't buy the CC rumors.

I know I should quit harping on the awards, especially when the two obvious choices were nearly unanimously chosen, but come on. Edinson Volquez 4th in NL RoY balloting? The Edinson Volquez that threw 80 IP over the previous 3 seasons Texas? Some of these writers clearly aren't trying.

I know I should quit harping on the awards, especially when the two obvious choices were nearly unanimously chosen, but come on. Edinson Volquez 4th in NL RoY balloting? The Edinson Volquez that threw 80 IP over the previous 3 seasons Texas? Some of these writers clearly aren't trying.

LOL-

I swear, I've probably known the criteria for awards voting since I was 12 or something. That's rediculous that people that get paid to report on the game would be that f'n clueless.

Phillies quickly re-sign lefty specialist Scott Eyre to a 1-year, 2 million + performance bonuses deal. This leaves Jaime Moyer as likely the only key free agent the Phillies need to re-sign.

Also, bench coach Jimy Williams surprisingly resigned yesterday. I get the feeling he might emerge as a manager prospect sometime soon. I think that first-base coach Davey Lopes is the expected replacement, but I would not rule out an external candidate.

I'm an admitted baseball dork and play in both an AL and NL only fantasy league, but I can safely say I have zero interest in the search for the Phillies bench coach. :)

As far as Holliday, it's a good trade for Oakland because Carlos Gonzalez was terrible in the 3 months he was up. He could very well be another Carlos Pena who also had very good minor league numbers before sucking for 5 years and resurfacing as if nothing had happened. Oakland has/had like 10 outfielders and needs to make a few more deals like this to consolidate and get a proper lineup on the field everyday.

Phillies quickly re-sign lefty specialist Scott Eyre to a 1-year, 2 million + performance bonuses deal. This leaves Jaime Moyer as likely the only key free agent the Phillies need to re-sign.

Also, bench coach Jimy Williams surprisingly resigned yesterday. I get the feeling he might emerge as a manager prospect sometime soon. I think that first-base coach Davey Lopes is the expected replacement, but I would not rule out an external candidate.

Burrell's already dead to ya?

I mean, i don't think they need to resign him either, but they do need to bring in someone to offset the loss of his production.

Burrell's already dead to ya?

I mean, i don't think they need to resign him either, but they do need to bring in someone to offset the loss of his production.

Well, my thinking on Burrell is that the Phillies are ready to replace him and he will only come back if extremely cheap (somewhere in the ball park of 3-years, 12 million). That might be unrealistic, but I really don't see that much demand for his services elsewhere in the National League because of his poor fielding and the fact that he is older and falls into that mid-level range of free agents likely to be screwed by the economy. So, it is possible that Burrell will come back.

However, I'd be just as happy with signing a cheap power-type guy to platoon with Dobbs and Jenkins. I'd love for them to get Adam Dunn (so long as they don't have to break the bank for him) as I think he is really underrated for the numbers he put up in a pitcher's ball park. Dunn could easily hit 40 homeruns playing at CBP.

*cough*Mets*cough* ;)

SI

god I hope so

Scott Olsen was just traded to the Nat's

Now this trade looks like an absolute steal for the Nationals.

Yeah, I like that deal for the Nats. MLBTradeRumors had a great summation of this deal: "I have to say, I thought the Marlins would get more for these two players. There's not really a sure thing in the bunch. Did Jim Bowden pull a heist, or was this the true market value of these two players? Olsen's peripheral stats weren't great this year, while Willingham has back problems."

SI

Finally, some good news.

Tim Lincecum wins the Cy Young!

I'd love for them to get Adam Dunn (so long as they don't have to break the bank for him) as I think he is really underrated for the numbers he put up in a pitcher's ball park. Dunn could easily hit 40 homeruns playing at CBP.

You don't say. Dunn's hit exactly 40 HRs the last 4 seasons and hasn't hit fewer than that since 2003.

Tim Lincecum wins the Cy Young!

If Lincecum is that good I can't wait to see how good Drew fucking Stubbs must be.

Tim Lincecum wins the Cy Young!

Happy for him. Lincecum seems absolutely amazing. Shame he's pitching for the Giants though :(.

You don't say. Dunn's hit exactly 40 HRs the last 4 seasons and hasn't hit fewer than that since 2003.

Hence why I said he'd "easily" hit 40 homeruns. :D

Happy for him. Lincecum seems absolutely amazing. Shame he's pitching for the Giants though :(.

How soon til he's traded for Rios?

How soon til he's traded for Rios?

Probably right after Kemp is traded for Cano.

Probably right after Kemp is traded for Cano.
???

ESPN - Sources: New York Yankees acquire Nick Swisher from Chicago White Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700869)

Yankees acquire Nick Swisher.

I really wonder why anyone is still willing to trade with Beane.

I really wonder why anyone is still willing to trade with Beane.

Beane is fascinating. He knows when to sell. I still find it odd that so many guys in their prime leave Oakland and cease to be their functional selves.

Zito, Mulder, Hudson (Though he rebounded some), Giambi, Tejada, Swisher, etc.

It is amazing.

How soon til he's traded for Rios?

Boo. I so wanted this to happen.

Cliff Lee wins the Cy Young.

Player 1st 2nd 3rd Total
Lee, Indians 24 4 -- 132
Roy Halladay,
Blue Jays 4 15 6 71
Francisco Rodriguez, Angels -- 7 11 32
Others receiving votes: Daisuke Matsuzaka, Red Sox, 10; Mariano Rivera, Yankees, 3; Mike Mussina, Yankees, 2; Ervin Santana, Angels, 2.

Beane is fascinating. He knows when to sell. I still find it odd that so many guys in their prime leave Oakland and cease to be their functional selves.

Zito, Mulder, Hudson (Though he rebounded some), Giambi, Tejada, Swisher, etc.

It is amazing.

I don't think I'd add Tejada to that list as he's still one of the better SS in the league.

At the same time, you get guys like Haren, Pena, Damon, Dye, Ludwick (although, last season could be a fluke), Ethier, and even Milt Bradley either continue to excel or who develop and exceed expectations.

Ya win some...you lose some.

As an A's fan, it's frustrating to watch players leave regularly but at the same time it's fun to watch the young kids develop.

Cliff Lee wins the Cy Young.

What a shock! ;)

The Braves have ended negotiations with the San Diego Padres to obtain pitching ace Jake Peavy, according to Braves general manager Frank Wren.

Wren told the AJC he has informed Padres GM Kevin Towers of the decision. Wren said the team will continue to pursue starting pitching, it’s main offseason goal and could not wait on the Padres.

Starting today, Major league baseball teams can make offers to free agents previously with other teams.

Royals with the signing of the day...

"Mike Arbuckle, the man responsible for drafting Chase Utley (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5383), Jimmy Rollins (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4258), Ryan Howard (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6097), Cole Hamels (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6216) and other players who helped form the nucleus of the Philadelphia Phillies (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=phi)' 2008 world championship club, has taken a job with the Kansas City Royals (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=kan) as a senior adviser to general manager Dayton Moore.

The announcement will be made official at a news conference Friday afternoon.

Arbuckle, 58, recently left the Phillies when the team promoted Ruben Amaro Jr. to replace Pat Gillick as general manager. Arbuckle, an assistant GM who spent 15 years with the franchise and led its scouting efforts, and Amaro had been the only candidates considered for the job.

In his new role with Kansas City, Arbuckle said he will serve as a "right-hand man" to Moore and J.J. Picollo, the Royals' assistant GM for scouting and player development. Arbuckle will have input at both the professional and amateur levels.

"I'm really looking forward to the opportunity and the challenge," Arbuckle said Friday. "There are some very good baseball people in this organization. I couldn't have landed in a better situation.''

Arbuckle makes his home in Liberty, Mo.

"I've been spending 275, 280 nights a year on the road," he said. "It will be nice to be able to sleep in my own bed.""

Arbuckle will be the new KC GM sooner rather than later, I reckon.

I am thrilled with the Arbuckle move. I didn't think KC had a chance at landing him even after the fallout from the Phils. Get that man out on the road with talent scouting and development, stat!

SI

The Braves have ended negotiations with the San Diego Padres to obtain pitching ace Jake Peavy, according to Braves general manager Frank Wren.

Wren told the AJC he has informed Padres GM Kevin Towers of the decision. Wren said the team will continue to pursue starting pitching, it’s main offseason goal and could not wait on the Padres.

Starting today, Major league baseball teams can make offers to free agents previously with other teams.


I guess they are right in wanting to keep as many youngsters as they can for the long haul. The thing that has me going "huh?" is they are still wanting to resign Hampton. Unless he is going to stay at a huge discount to repay some of the millions he lost the team over the last few years, I can't believe they'd even consider it.

Yup, sad to see Arbuckle go. But it was predictable once Amaro was promoted.

Fortunately, there wasn't a mass exodous out of the Philly scouting staff, and the guys who scouted for Utley, Hamels, and Howard are still in the organization.

Viva Chuck LaMar (sigh)

Wait.. listen closely..

*kathump* *kathump*

Hey! I know what that sound is! It's the Red Sox (probably Larry Luccino) giving Manny one last F-U, and throwing him under the bus with a leak to ESPN stating that they had formally suspended Manny when he took a couple days off because of "knee pain", and once Manny got the letter of suspension (sent to MLB/MLBPA/Boras) he immediately called the team and promised to play the next day.

ESPN - Boston Red Sox were ready to suspend Manny Ramirez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3704917)

Wait.. listen closely..

*kathump* *kathump*

Hey! I know what that sound is! It's the Red Sox (probably Larry Luccino) giving Manny one last F-U, and throwing him under the bus with a leak to ESPN stating that they had formally suspended Manny when he took a couple days off because of "knee pain", and once Manny got the letter of suspension (sent to MLB/MLBPA/Boras) he immediately called the team and promised to play the next day.

ESPN - Boston Red Sox were ready to suspend Manny Ramirez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3704917)

The guy flat-out refused to play two straight games in July against the Yankees. (and countless other games over the years). I mean, who does that in professional sports? And he shoved a 64-year-old traveling secretary to the ground because he couldn't get all the tickets he wanted. What a joke. An absolute sleazeball who gets a pass because he's basically borderline-retarded.

Any team that signs this clown deserves what they get.

The guy flat-out refused to play two straight games in July against the Yankees. (and countless other games over the years). I mean, who does that in professional sports? And he shoved a 64-year-old traveling secretary to the ground because he couldn't get all the tickets he wanted. What a joke. An absolute sleazeball who gets a pass because he's basically borderline-retarded.

Any team that signs this clown deserves what they get.

once he gets his big contract he will go back to being that way. he had a typical "contract year" once he went to the Dodgers. whats disgusting is how the media have slurped his overrated ass. they are actually dumb enough to think he will be worth the contract. lazy and getting old, yea he will be worth it :lol:
i hope the Yanks sign him to continue to rebuild thru the retirement home route

You guys have a hard time letting go :)

Indeed... but I guess they have to keep justifying trading a sure fire 1st ballot HOFer away ;).

Sources within the baseball industry believe CC Sabathia may be getting pressure from the Players Association to accept the record six-year, $140 million offer from the Yankees.

Presumably, having Sabathia ink that deal would result in monster contracts for other free agent pitchers. Even Brewers GM Doug Melvin said he thought the union could be putting the heat on CC, replying, "Yeah, probably," when probed about the possibility. Sabathia, a native of California, is believed to prefer his home state and the National League.

I hate the fucking union.

My problem is Boston let Manny be Manny for so long, that it's their own fault, and no one elses. If you man up and discipline the guy when these problems start, their is no bitter divorce.

Indeed... but I guess they have to keep justifying trading a sure fire 1st ballot HOFer away ;).

I hung with Manny a long time as a Red Sox fan. But how can you you have a star player who just takes off and doesn't play whenever he feels like it? This isn't like that insane A-Rod/Eckstein poll from a while back.

Hell, maybe a retarded, unreliable Manny who only plays when he feels like it is worth $15 million next year. But $120 million for 6 years or whatever he wants?

I hung with Manny a long time as a Red Sox fan. But how can you you have a star player who just takes off and doesn't play whenever he feels like it? This isn't like that insane A-Rod/Eckstein poll from a while back.

Hell, maybe a retarded, unreliable Manny is worth it for $15 million next year. But $120 million for 6 years or whatever he wants?

All I'm thinking is that if the Red Sox won the WS last year, we'd not hear half of the anti-Manny stuff as we are this offseason. It almost seems like Sox fans are trying to console themselves, saying even though we lost in the ALCS, it would have been worse with Manny or something.

$120 for 6 is obviously a negotiating point. Though if I was the Dodgers, I'd give him $20 a year for... 4 years.

My problem is Boston let Manny be Manny for so long, that it's their own fault, and no one elses. If you man up and discipline the guy when these problems start, their is no bitter divorce.

I don't think the Red Sox can be blamed for an elderly man being attacked or a guy repeatedly "calling in sick" to make a point about a contract. There's certain minimum standards that every professional athlete should be expected to meet, even if they otherwise have free reign in the discipline department.

No pro team can baby their players these days, that's why character has to have at least some consideration when you're shelling out this much money.

And of course, this Sox administration inherited this issue, but they did try to get rid of him in every way except eating multiple years of the contract. Remember when they put him in irrevocable waivers and nobody wanted him? That actually seemed to shut him up for a year, but he always went back to being the crybaby with the mentality of a 6-year old

All I'm thinking is that if the Red Sox won the WS last year, we'd not hear half of the anti-Manny stuff as we are this offseason. It almost seems like Sox fans are trying to console themselves, saying even though we lost in the ALCS, it would have been worse with Manny or something.

$120 for 6 is obviously a negotiating point. Though if I was the Dodgers, I'd give him $20 a year for... 4 years.

I don't see the point. Red Sox fans, like any fan of any team that ever existed, would probably be more content with things if they won the championship, no question.

Even David Ortiz said he needed to go, and I've never heard Ortiz say anything about anyone. There were reports of Red Sox players going to the front office and demanding Manny be shipped out, and of Manny refusing to play for the REST OF THE SEASON unless the Sox declined his options. They got a decent deal, all things considered.

I know it's cool to be anti-Red Sox no matter what, but I don't see how this stuff can be defended and how any sports fan wouldn't hope to see him take a hit for this stuff in the wallet in the off season.

A 4-year/$80 million deal would give others a huge incentive to skip games in the middle of the season as a contract ploy. What's the downside? Manny profiting off his actions would be really sad, IMO

I don't think the Red Sox can be blamed for an elderly man being attacked or a guy repeatedly "calling in sick" to make a point about a contract. There's certain minimum standards that every professional athlete should be expected to meet, even if they otherwise have free reign in the discipline department.

Oh Bull! Take off the Red Sox glasses. The Red Sox put up with his behavior for YEARS. "Manny being Manny" was something funny. So don't all "Red Sox can't be blamed" stuff.

A 4-year/$80 million deal would give others a huge incentive to skip games in the middle of the season as a contract ploy. What's the downside? Manny profiting off his actions would be really sad, IMO

"Others incentive" LOL! The problem is that there aren't many "others" that are as good a baseball player as Manny Ramirez. I mean how many other no doubt future 1st ballot HOFers batters are there out there? A-Rod? Pujols (with a few more years)? Frank Thomas?

Oh Bull! Take off the Red Sox glasses. The Red Sox put up with his behavior for YEARS. "Manny being Manny" was something funny. So don't all "Red Sox can't be blamed" stuff.

What do you think they should have done? Put him on waivers, offer to give him up for nothing (they did both). It would have been REALLY gutsy to trade him after '04 at his most valuable, in retrospect, that would have been a tremendous idea, though nobody would have been for it at the time because it was a period or relatively good behavior.

Eat $100+ million 3-4 years ago? I'd take an even more insane Manny over that scenario.

I don't get the "blame" discussion, I don't get how it matters. Some of his shtick was funny (taking a leak in the green monster, etc). Refusing to play in important games against division rivals is so far off the charts it's ridiculous. I can't remember another professional athlete doing that in modern history in the middle of season. Fine, the Red Sox deserved that, that's not necessary to the point I'm making about Ramirez being a douchebag and hoping he doesn't profit off of these kinds of tactics.

I'm not saying they didn't get a ton out of him, and that he's not worth a shitload of money even if he only plays when he feels like it. I'm just venting about a douchebag that's about to profit millions off of refusing to play in games. The Red Sox could havehandled the whole thing better and gotten out of this sooner (I guess, though I haven't exactly thought of how). That just doesn't excuse his behavior though.

"Others incentive" LOL! The problem is that there aren't many "others" that are as good a baseball player as Manny Ramirez. I mean how many other no doubt future 1st ballot HOFers batters are there out there? A-Rod? Pujols (with a few more years)? Frank Thomas?

The level of the player doesn't matter.

If a solid 3B has a team option for $7 million after the year, and he's worth more on the free agent market, why not just refuse to play in September until the option is declined? Then he can go out on the open market and get more.

If a player on your team refused to play important games while he was under contract, you'd be upset, wouldn't you? Is that really such an unreasonable stance?

What do you think they should have done?

Oh, I dunno, let him know that behavior wasn't ok by suspending him or something. Instead the Red Sox let him do whatever he wanted and it became funny... until it didn't. You didn't hear "Manny being Manny" stories in Cleveland. Probably because they didn't give him such a long rope.

The level of the player doesn't matter.

Of course it does. Don't be silly.

If a solid 3B has a team option for $7 million after the year, and he's worth more on the free agent market, why not just refuse to play in September until the option is declined? Then he can go out on the open market and get more.

Perhaps because that FA value will be worth less if he declines to such a level. Or refuses to play at all. If the player is as great as Ramirez, it may be worth the risk.

Kind of like signing Terrell Owens in football. He may be wacky, but until he gets there, he's definitely worth the risk.

Oh, I dunno, let him know that behavior wasn't ok by suspending him or something. Instead the Red Sox let him do whatever he wanted and it became funny... until it didn't. You didn't hear "Manny being Manny" stories in Cleveland. Probably because they didn't give him such a long rope.


When has an MLB player ever been suspended for general in-house behavior issues? The MLBPA would never let it happen. This ain't the NFL. And the Sox really didn't have the smoking gun in terms of the injury stuff until this year. If a player says he's not ready physically, how can you suspend him? This just hasn't really come up before, because generally, (actually always outside of this one instance), the player tries to get back on the field. Really, can you give an example where an MLB team was able to deal with a player refusing to play in a game by suspending him (or really any behavioral issue that isn't black and white and already agreed on by the MLBPA, like a positive drug test)

The Sox probably should have learned how to "build a case" about this kind of thing earlier, it seems their suspension of him this year had legs.

Kind of like signing Terrell Owens in football. He may be wacky, but until he gets there, he's definitely worth the risk.

Both Manny and Owens are worth some risk.

But is Manny even leaving ANYTHING on the table with the exploits last year? Shouldn't a Manny that plays every day and doesn't fake injuries be worth more than one that does? The fact that it doesn't seem like there's any value difference between those players is just insane to me.

"But on the way to the exam, Ramirez, according to sources, couldn't remember which knee was sore. So the Red Sox had both of his knees examined. The MRIs revealed no damage in either."

And he can be yours for a $100 million commitment!

Shouldn't a Manny that plays every day and doesn't fake injuries be worth more than one that does?

Where exactly are going to find a Manny that does? Even with his uninterest with Boston (which as in the past, would have dissipated), he still had a 136 OPS+ and was carrying the team when Ortiz was crap earlier.

Where exactly are going to find a Manny that does? Even with his uninterest with Boston (which as in the past, would have dissipated), he still had a 136 OPS+ and was carrying the team when Ortiz was crap earlier.

There's a logical fallacy there. Obviously, it's possible to win a world series without a Manny Ramirez (the Phills did it). And having Manny doesn't guarantee a World Series. So clearly, his value isn't unlimited, there is a point where where he's too expensive.

Your point only makes sense if Manny, specifically, is absolutely necessary for a team to win, or guarantees winning. Then, his flaws don't matter, because you get the same return either way.

He would be worth more if he were 30 and hit 60 home runs last year. He should be worth more if he doesn't skip games. I don't care how good you are, your value could always be higher or lower, you don't "cap out" at a point where you're so good that nothing can reduce your value.

I think there's a lot better ways to spend $100 million over 4 years, looking strictly at value of player, counting production and subtracting, without emotion, the times where he just doesn't show up for work.

I'd give him a one-year contract for $25 million, because he clearly performs well in that environment. Maybe $35 for 2-years, and exceedingly lower average salaries the longer you go.

The point is which player is another team going to get that matches Manny, since you think teams are stupid to try to sign him because he does weird crap. Yes, the Red Sox are trying to use Bay (who isn't as good).

This whole, he'd have more value if he did X, Y, and Z is a silly argument. Julio Lugo would have more value if he his 100 HRs last year, but he didn't.

This whole, he'd have more value if he did X, Y, and Z is a silly argument. Julio Lugo would have more value if he his 100 HRs last year, but he didn't.

You've said that Manny's reached some kind of level of excellence where skipping games and attacking press secretaries shouldn't effect his value. I think EVERY player's value can go up or down based on what they give to the team, you apparently feel there's an upper cap where negatives should be disregarded, because there's no suitable replacements. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. On a roster of 25, there's always replacements. You can be a great player, it doesn't mean you're a great value.

I think maybe you're mistaking me for someone who thinks pissing behind the green monster during a game or carrying around a water bottle in the outfield is bad for the team. I could care less about his goofy antics, and don't feel they should effect value. But when a guy actually skips games, you have to take that into account when determining value to the team. I'm not saying I would replace him Sean Casey out there.

... but I don't see how ... any sports fan wouldn't hope to see him take a hit for this stuff in the wallet in the off season.

I don't know that I particularly care how much money the guy makes (unless it's my team that's paying him or anybody else). He's welcome to whatever the market will bear AFAIC.

I don't know that I particularly care how much money the guy makes (unless it's my team that's paying him or anybody else). He's welcome to whatever the market will bear AFAIC.

I don't care how much athletes make generally (they deserve the millions). I just think it's dangerous, from a sports fan point of view, when mid-season holdouts are rewarded. Hey, I guess they have the right to do it, and if teams are going to cave and reward them they should. I'm just saying it kind of sucks when it's your team and they're in a pennant race.

It kind of takes a little bit of the fun out if players start sitting out important games for contractual reasons. We're about to see one player make a financial windfall for that decision. We'll see other players start doing it. That's their right, and the teams can pay what they want and all that. It's just sad for the game.

I'd love to have Manny on the Phillies if it wouldn't kill our payroll and was only for about two or three years.

I guess that's just me, though.

I guess that's just me, though.

And the large majority of fans in close to 30 other cities.

It's just like raising kids. If you give in to every desire for years you can't be surprised when they suddenly don't listen to you.

You've said that Manny's reached some kind of level of excellence where skipping games and attacking press secretaries shouldn't effect his value. I think EVERY player's value can go up or down based on what they give to the team, you apparently feel there's an upper cap where negatives should be disregarded, because there's no suitable replacements. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. On a roster of 25, there's always replacements. You can be a great player, it doesn't mean you're a great value.

Well the Red Sox way back when thought that Babe Ruth's value was negatively affected by his negative actions. How'd that work out for them?

I think maybe you're mistaking me for someone who thinks pissing behind the green monster during a game or carrying around a water bottle in the outfield is bad for the team. I could care less about his goofy antics, and don't feel they should effect value. But when a guy actually skips games, you have to take that into account when determining value to the team. I'm not saying I would replace him Sean Casey out there.

As stated by JPhillips, when you give in to every desire for years this is not a surprise.

Well the Red Sox way back when thought that Babe Ruth's value was negatively affected by his negative actions. How'd that work out for them?

As stated by JPhillips, when you give in to every desire for years this is not a surprise.

The Babe Ruth trade was a bad one. Not sure what the hell that has to do with anything though.

I still think it's surprising when a player skips games in the middle of the reason for contractual reasons when I can't remember a single example of that happening this century. I guess I'm just a crazy homer and I should apologize to Manny for my unfair criticisms.

And the Red Sox suck for not breaking the union and becoming a RARE example of a team that's successful in suspending a player for behavior issues (I actually can't think of another example).

Nobody wanted him. They gave him away for nothing (irrevocable waivers) and even the Yankees wouldn't touch him. Suspensions don't happen in MLB. The doucheabaggery wasn't quite worth eating $100+ million several years ago. I can't even tell what you guys are arguing with me on.

You can, as MrBug put it "[let] go"

You can, as MrBug put it "[let] go"

I criticized a player for pretty insane behavior that was in the news today. I assure you that this doesn't effect my life for any second I'm not posting about it, but hey, thanks for caring.

All I've seen is Boston fans pile on Manny with any new "news", like a 'doth protest too much' type of situation. I mean Philly fans aren't this pissy at J.D. Drew.

I criticized a player for pretty insane behavior that was in the news today. I assure you that this doesn't effect my life for any second I'm not posting about it, but hey, thanks for caring.

You see, I would find this more believable if you didn't write a book's worth of words in this page of this thread alone on this topic. Sure, it may not be something that affects how you pay the bills, but bull crap it doesn't affect your life. All of us diehards, it does affect our lives, and those fans who believe otherwise are BSing themselves.

All I've seen is Boston fans pile on Manny with any new "news", like a 'doth protest too much' type of situation. I mean Philly fans aren't this pissy at J.D. Drew.


So saying the Sox are throwing Manny under the bus with this being a final FU, is piling on manny? Whafuck?

Not YOU, silly :p.

The fanbase in general... which of course allows for those who are not in the majority.

All I've seen is Boston fans pile on Manny with any new "news", like a 'doth protest too much' type of situation. I mean Philly fans aren't this pissy at J.D. Drew.

Wasn't that 11 years ago?

OK, point taking, if I'm still posting about this, after no new developments, in 2019, I'll totally concede whatever insane point you're making here, OK?

The Manny thing is the top story on ESPN.com after the front page splash. It's not a fair topic of conversation at FOFC? What am I allowed to post about? Sure, it's overhyped because it's Boston but I'm sure it'd still be a fairy big story if Carlos Pena was faking injuries, refusing to play in games, sent a letter of suspension by the Devil Rays and then suddenly decided his injury was miraculously healed.

If a Devil Ray fan posted about that, I don't think he'd get shit for it. I personally wouldn't give him shit for it for referencing it in a "Official 2008-2009 MLB Offseason Thread" at FOFC, but maybe I'm just special.

Give me a break.

You see, I would find this more believable if you didn't write a book's worth of words in this page of this thread alone on this topic. Sure, it may not be something that affects how you pay the bills, but bull crap it doesn't affect your life. All of us diehards, it does affect our lives, and those fans who believe otherwise are BSing themselves.

Fair enough, I think you're right in the sense that my passion for the Red Sox (which is quite mild) is the only reason I'm annoyed at the Manny stuff to begin with. I find his contract situation quite interesting and would love to see his ploy not work out financially for him. That's all. Noboby wants to talk about the contract, people just want to post about how I've somehow unreasonable to post about this and it's all the Red Sox's fault so who cares. That's kind of annoying (not the opinion that the Red Sox have fault here, just the whole attitude) but whatever, it's the standard deal around here.

Wasn't that 11 years ago?

OK, point taking, if I'm still posting about this, after no new developments, in 2019, I'll totally concede whatever insane point you're making here, OK?

The Manny thing is the top story on ESPN.com after the front page splash. It's not a fair topic of conversation at FOFC? What am I allowed to post about? Sure, it's overhyped because it's Boston but I'm sure it'd still be a fairy big story if Carlos Pena was faking injuries, refusing to play in games, sent a letter of suspension by the Devil Rays and then suddenly decided his injury was miraculously healed.

If a Devil Ray fan posted about that, I don't think he'd get shit for it. I personally wouldn't give him shit for it for referencing it in a "Official 2008-2009 MLB Offseason Thread" at FOFC, but maybe I'm just special.

Give me a break.

Well, one point in Issidiqui's favor is that, frankly, a Rays fan wouldn't bother to post about this. Not every ESPN top story gets a thread, or even mentioned.

I personally don't think you should be taking shit for posting about this. As a fan, that's your right, and the way things went, I think you have every right to be pissed (even if agree with Issidiqui that that whole situation was created because the Red Sox didn't man up early on in Manny's contract and tell him the right way to be a professional ballplayer).

Well, one point in Issidiqui's favor is that, frankly, a Rays fan wouldn't bother to post about this. Not every ESPN top story gets a thread, or even mentioned.



Really? Didn't we have a whole thread on the Pirates/Draft Pick/Scott Boras thing? That was a guy who never played a professional game refusing to report. This was a future-HOF refusing to play while he was under contract. I think the latter is a bigger story.

In non-Manny Red Sox related news, it turns out that Scott Boras is just MOSTLY nuts, not all Nuts.

He put something out via the Boston Herald, that he wasn't looking for Posada money (4/52), more like 2/20 or 2/22. I CRINGE at giving the dessicating corpse of Jason Varitek even that much money.

In non-Manny Red Sox related news, it turns out that Scott Boras is just MOSTLY nuts, not all Nuts.

He put something out via the Boston Herald, that he wasn't looking for Posada money (4/52), more like 2/20 or 2/22. I CRINGE at giving the dessicating corpse of Jason Varitek even that much money.

Somebody will pay him 2/20. And things could get depressing-bad in the 2nd year of that contract.

Really? Didn't we have a whole thread on the Pirates/Draft Pick/Scott Boras thing? That was a guy who never played a professional game refusing to report. This was a future-HOF refusing to play while he was under contract. I think the latter is a bigger story.

The Pirates thing was posted by a Pirates fan.

Didn't we have a whole thread on the Pirates/Draft Pick/Scott Boras thing?

Question is how many times have we heard about that since then? It seems every month something else is released or 'leaked' about Manny ever since the BoSox dealt him. And then the discussions about how bad Manny was for the team, again.

Besides, how often do Pirates fans get to discuss their teams in these official threads anyway?

All I've seen is Boston fans pile on Manny with any new "news", like a 'doth protest too much' type of situation. I mean Philly fans aren't this pissy at J.D. Drew.

I'm still pissed.

The Pirates thing was posted by a Pirates fan.

Technically a long term disenfranchised Phillies fan who wanted to give the Pirates a shot this year. I'll still follow the Bucs to some degree, as Lanny Frattare is one of the best radio announcers in the buisiness. But since I have XM now, and can listen to the Phils games too, I'll probably tend to listen to the pirates.


And the Boras/Alvarez thing was just unacceptable behavior by Boras.

Technically a long term disenfranchised Phillies fan who wanted to give the Pirates a shot this year. I'll still follow the Bucs to some degree, as Lanny Frattare is one of the best radio announcers in the buisiness. But since I have XM now, and can listen to the Phils games too, I'll probably tend to listen to the pirates.


And the Boras/Alvarez thing was just unacceptable behavior by Boras.

Perhaps, but point is, it was mostly your connection to the team (either as a past fan or as someone in the area more aware of the team's goings-on) that led to that discussion.

Perhaps, but point is, it was mostly your connection to the team (either as a past fan or as someone in the area more aware of the team's goings-on) that led to that discussion.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I'm disagreeing with ISiddiqui's criticisims of me for posting about this at all (even though the majority of my posts are in response to his posts, so he must be interested in this too).

I only brought up the Pirates thing because in response to the argument that the Manny thing is a non-story and just bitter Red Sox fans carrying on (or whatever). The Pirates thing was posted about here too, in it's own thread, was clearly less newsworthy, but apparently acceptable post material, and not just sour grapes.

Even David Ortiz said he needed to go, and I've never heard Ortiz say anything about anyone. There were reports of Red Sox players going to the front office and demanding Manny be shipped out, and of Manny refusing to play for the REST OF THE SEASON unless the Sox declined his options.There were also reports he called the Red Sox and said he was ready to play hard the rest of the year if he wasn't traded (really, he was doing all this for a better contract in the offseason and he was going to sit out the last 2 months of the year? And this was going to increase his contract value past 1/20 or 2/40? How does that make any sense?) And there was another player who clearly talked to Manny and then called the Red Sox and said Ramirez would play Saturday - if you want to lay odds on that being anyone other than Ortiz be my guest.When has an MLB player ever been suspended for general in-house behavior issues? The MLBPA would never let it happen. This ain't the NFL. And the Sox really didn't have the smoking gun in terms of the injury stuff until this year. If a player says he's not ready physically, how can you suspend him? This just hasn't really come up before, because generally, (actually always outside of this one instance), the player tries to get back on the field. Really, can you give an example where an MLB team was able to deal with a player refusing to play in a game by suspending him (or really any behavioral issue that isn't black and white and already agreed on by the MLBPA, like a positive drug test)Yes, Bartolo Colon on the 2008 Boston Red Sox. I'm not sure if he was officially suspended or just told to go home to the Dominican and not come back, but they managed to do that without 35 "anonymous" leaks to the newspapers, and no one in the media bothered to find out. If you want another New England athlete who is a "team leader" that probably dragged out injuries/rehab because of a contract dispute, then there's Taylor Twellman down the road in Foxboro.

Like Fozzie said, this is the FO throwing Manny under the bus, again, and a compliant media playing along/leading the charge. It's just sad to see so many fans get sucked in yet again. Who was the last good Red Sox player to leave this town on good terms - Yastrzemski maybe? I can't wait to see how they're going to turn on Ortiz next.

There may or may not be a question on Bartolo Colon. There is absolutely no question on Jose Guillen.

Guillen was suspended for the last eight games of the 2004 season, and the following postseason by the Angels, basically for behavior detriment to the club (and fittingly, the move, made when the Angels were three games back, triggered them winning almost all of their remaining games to get past the division-leading A's).

There may or may not have been a peep from the MLBPA. I can't recall. But I will tell you this. Jose Guillen never played one more damn game for the Angels. ;)

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I'm disagreeing with ISiddiqui's criticisims of me for posting about this at all (even though the majority of my posts are in response to his posts, so he must be interested in this too).

I only brought up the Pirates thing because in response to the argument that the Manny thing is a non-story and just bitter Red Sox fans carrying on (or whatever). The Pirates thing was posted about here too, in it's own thread, was clearly less newsworthy, but apparently acceptable post material, and not just sour grapes.

But you were also disagreeing with the assertion that the Red Sox are at least partly culpable themselves for letting the situation get to where it got. And that's just flat wrong, IMO. The Red Sox basically did nothing to punish Manny whatsoever after seven and a half seasons, and then after shipping him out after the latest episodes, have basically tried to paint him as this bad guy acting on his own (or at most with his agent). And I just don't think it's as black and white as that. Not saying Manny's handling of the situation doesn't make him an utter tool and ass, but only a fervent Red Sox fan would deny that the Red Sox made decisions for his entire tenure with them that encouraged this sort of behavior, and to label him as the sole misproprietor here is just false. They are as much to blame as he.

And the voters get an NL MVP right by picking Albert Pujols!

Manny needed about 7 more HR's in the time he was in the NL to capture the MVP :(

And the voters get an NL MVP right by picking Albert Pujols!

Yeah you take him off the Cards and they still don't make the playoffs.

And yet, Pujols' 190 OPS+ is the highest in his career and tied for the 93rd best season of all time. He also destroyed the field (including 2nd placer Chipper Jones) in Adjusted Batting Runs, Offensive Win%, Batting Wins, VORP (Chipper finished 3rd here to Hanley Ramirez and Pujols), and Equivalent Average.

I don't think the MVP award should be restricted for "Playoff Team Players Only"

Yeah you take him off the Cards and they still don't make the playoffs.

Take Orlando Cabrera off of the White Sox and they probably miss the playoffs so he must be AL MVP!

Anybody but Pujos for NL MVP would have been a travesty.

hxxp://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/11/reds_lose_affeldt_to_giants.html

Giants sign Jeremy Affeldt to a 2 year deal worth a reported $8 million.

Manny finishing 3rd in the voting actually sounds about right to me. He didn't deserve to win the award outright based on just two months, but he had such a dramatic impact on his new team that he did deserve to at least be part of the conversation.

No way. Manny was amazing, but finished 13th in the league in VORP amongst hitters (again, a hell of an achievement in 1/3 of the season)- I think its fine to place him in your top 10, but the idea that he should be in the top 3 is ridiculous.

Its amazing - so far the association of nitwits known as the BBWAA hasn't fucked up an award - I have faith that they will give Morneau the MVP and continue on with their standard precedent however. :D

Well, he did finish 4th if that's any consolation... and I'd say Brad Lidge getting 2 first-place votes (but no Cy Young votes?) is the bigger joke. Or maybe Jose Valverde and Stephen Drew getting any votes.

In potential trade news, the Red Sox are discussing dealing Julio Lugo to anyone that will take him Detroit for.... Dontrelle Willis? (Or maybe Nate Robertson.) The classic "devil you don't know" case I suppose. Although I did love this quote from another boardI'm actually surprised so many people support the idea of trading Lugo for Willis/Robertson. Lugo is athletic, versatile, a good baserunner, and has relatively decent on-base skills. At this point, he's basically Alex Cora, except he's athletic, versatile, a good baserunner, and has relatively decent on-base skills.:D

I was thinking of something while going through m son's TSN issue. I have heard about Brad Lidge's amazing season and how he came back from devastation that took years to overcome. WTF? I had to look it up to make sure. He lost Game 5 of the 2005 NLCS, yet he had 3 saves in that series and his team ended up winning Game 6 and the ML Pennant. So he lost a game in closing situation - big deal, that happens to every closer out there. It was not like it cost his team a 1) playoff spot, 2) pennant or 3) world series. So why have they been making a big deal about what happened 3 years, when it wasn't that big of a deal to begin with?

I was thinking of something while going through m son's TSN issue. I have heard about Brad Lidge's amazing season and how he came back from devastation that took years to overcome. WTF? I had to look it up to make sure. He lost Game 5 of the 2005 NLCS, yet he had 3 saves in that series and his team ended up winning Game 6 and the ML Pennant. So he lost a game in closing situation - big deal, that happens to every closer out there. It was not like it cost his team a 1) playoff spot, 2) pennant or 3) world series. So why have they been making a big deal about what happened 3 years, when it wasn't that big of a deal to begin with?

Lidge was essentially unable to close games for the Astros after that. There was a repeated cycle of Lidge being ineffective as a closer and being demoted to the setup role where he would flourish and once again be given the closer's job. Rinse & repeat.

I think the rumor goes that Lidge lost confidence in his curveball after the Pujols bomb and just threw fastballs. Hitters were able to get his timing down and shelled him several times. Phil Garner then messed Lidge up more by demoting/promoting him from the closer role.

After getting traded to the Phillies, Lidge done got his knee injured early in spring training. Lidge then developed that devestating slider, primarily to take pressure off of his knee while rehabbing and in his first early season performances.

Once that leg healed up, he was still able to get high speed on that fastball. However, developing that slider is what made him so effective this year.

I think the rumor goes that Lidge lost confidence in his curveball after the Pujols bomb and just threw fastballs. Hitters were able to get his timing down and shelled him several times. Phil Garner then messed Lidge up more by demoting/promoting him from the closer role.

After getting traded to the Phillies, Lidge done got his knee injured early in spring training. Lidge then developed that devestating slider, primarily to take pressure off of his knee while rehabbing and in his first early season performances.

Once that leg healed up, he was still able to get high speed on that fastball. However, developing that slider is what made him so effective this year.

Nah, he's always had the wicked slider (he struck out 157 batters in 95 IP in 2004 largely because of it), but he did have trouble locating it in 2006. His Hit, BB and HR rates all increased significantly in 06.

There are two trains of thought locally regarding Lidge - one that it was a mental thing after the Pujols bomb in the 05 playoffs, but I think that the more logical conclusion was that he had some minor injuries over the past couple of seasons that limited his effectiveness.

That's the part I don't get - why would Pujols blast effect him that much? It didn't cost them anything, except playing one extra game? Was he really young at the time?

That's the part I don't get - why would Pujols blast effect him that much? It didn't cost them anything, except playing one extra game? Was he really young at the time?

He also lost two games in the World Series.

That's the part I don't get - why would Pujols blast effect him that much? It didn't cost them anything, except playing one extra game? Was he really young at the time?

I dunno, stuff like that can fuck a guy up real bad.

Is the wiki entry on Donnie Moore actually true? I didn't realize he shot himself after attempting to murder his wife. I thought it was just due to depression in some part due to the Hendu homer.

I dunno, stuff like that can fuck a guy up real bad.

Is the wiki entry on Donnie Moore actually true? I didn't realize he shot himself after attempting to murder his wife. I thought it was just due to depression in some part due to the Hendu homer.

Yes, it's true. Moore had a lot of problems. It's also quite true, though, to say that his precipitous fall started with the swing of Dave Henderson's bat. It's a tragic story. :(

Cubs re-sign Dempster to a 4 year/$52 mllion dollar deal. Reasonable price. I'm happy.

One writer voted K-Rod for MVP.

BBWAA: 2008 AL Most Valuable Player (http://www.baseballwriters.org/awards/2008/2008_AL_mvp.html)

Put a warning on the link! NSFE

Scrappy hitter 4 MVP!

He's got heart.

Wow. What a stunningly bad pick. And I thought Morneau's award was a crappy pick.

Not the best year for AL sluggers really. They should have kept the award and saved it for a later year when two guys put up monster numbers.

Yeah, but if they wanted to give it to a Red Sox, Youk was far superior of a choice. Personally, I'd think it wasn't a great pick if it was Youkilis, but I'd be ok with it.

Siddiqui - Two questions

1. Are you surprised? I had figured this was locked up since the end of the regular season.

2. If this pick is so egregious, who was egregiously passed over?

Pedroia isn't a terrible pick. He was 3rd in the AL in VORP and 1st among position players in WARP. I can live with it since I was worried K-Rod would somehow end up walking away with the award.

If they truly wanted to give the award to the Most Valuable player, though, it would have been Mauer or Cliff Lee. The Twins didn't make the postseason, though, which means Mauer's season carried zero value. Cliff Lee was a pitcher on a .500 team, which means he wasn't even a real baseball player.

Siddiqui - Two questions

1. Are you surprised? I had figured this was locked up since the end of the regular season.

2. If this pick is so egregious, who was egregiously passed over?

I'm absolutely shocked. I think Pedroia really isn't as deserving as Quentin, A-Rod, or Mauer.

You must not have read a lot of articles about it, then. From what I was reading, most thought it was Pedroia's to lose.

Quentin was done the moment he lost his season to a self-inflicted injury. A-Rod's going to have a tough time winning when his stats took a huge step back and his team missed the playoffs. Mauer is more debatable, but certainly not leaps and bounds ahead of Pedroia.

I do not think that Pedroia was the best player in the AL this year, but the writers have decided that that's not necessarily what the award is about.

Objectively, I would have gone Mauer, Youkilis, Pedroia, 15 guys, Morneau. Subjectively I love it. Especially for having defended him against quotes likeDustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power. If he can continue to hit .260 or so, he'll be useful, and he probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop.He's clearly better than I thought, but I don't think he's anywhere near this good. It's a bad swing, and he has very little power.

There's a reason why Keith Law hasn't been picked up by any Major League team since he was let go by Toronto.

I love it when people on message boards think they're scouts.

I think any of the top 3 would have been a good choice. Youkalis "feels" the most valuable to, but Mauer and Pedroia should get bonus points for the positions they play.

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Coco Crisp traded to the Royals for Ramon Ramirez. Any KC folk have a scouting report?

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Coco Crisp traded to the Royals for Ramon Ramirez. Any KC folk have a scouting report?

We picked Ramirez up off the scrap heap after an injury the previous season. He ended up being a very good pitcher for the Royals. 2.64 ERA with a 31/70 BB/SO in 71 innings. Hate to see him go, but the Royals have a lot of depth in the bullpen.

So who goes next, Teahan or Dejesus?

So who goes next, Teahan or Dejesus?

I think it's definitely Teahan. He's roughly the same player as Crisp (Teahan has a few more homers, Crisp has better defense). Teahan's definitely expendable at this point. I think they'll be asking a pretty high price for DeJesus.

FYI......rumor around KC is that a trade involving Teahan and Felix Pie is being discussed between the Cubs and Royals.

I heard on the radio that the Yankees are going to offer a big contract to Burnett, and that the Jays are going after Milton Bradley.

That's the question. I think someone on RoyalsReview had this one pegged perfect. Just like the Jacobs deal, it looks good viewed in a vacuum- take a reliever, the most inconsistent position, and trade for a position player with some useful attributes. However, again, like Jacobs- Crisp has as many flaws as he has strengths so maybe it's just a wash.

But what has become quite evident is that this is a prelude to a larger move which is a shame because I think Teahen has value as a super-sub at all 4 corner positions and DeJesus is my favorite Royal, and one of the few "professional" hitters on the team who actually knows how to take a walk, work the count, and hit for a little pop.

For the Red Sox fans out there- Ramirez was a great reliever for us last year and will be a good addition to the pen. He's a little homer prone but otherwise, pitches well. Look out for injuries as the reason we got him for a song was because he had arm issues. But, he's young, under club control for quite a while, and someone you can trust in the back of the bullpen.

As a side note, I'm sure the fans will grill these trades next year when the bullpen isn't great like it was last year. However, that's more a product of it being an inherently volatile position to begin with.

SI

FYI......rumor around KC is that a trade involving Teahan and Felix Pie is being discussed between the Cubs and Royals.

Seems like that has to be off the table now.

I'd still like this as part of a "master plan" to trade DDJ, one other major piece or Teahen, and a prospect or two for someone big and it's been lined up for a while now. If it's suddenly Feb 1 and these guys are still on the team and Moore has to sell them for pennies on the dollar, then this failed.

SI

i don't really think you can call Ramirez homer prone when he only allowed two homeruns in 71 innings last year

He did have 7 in his previous 80 innings, tho. I guess that's still not too bad of a ratio

SI

What kind of package would KC be looking for by giving up DeJesus that would actually benefit them?

What kind of package would KC be looking for by giving up DeJesus that would actually benefit them?

I can only think that Moore is looking to package him with others to get a bigger piece. We seem to be stockpiling replacement to somewhat useful players so we can kick out a couple for something bigger. So, no, all the talk of 3 B and C-level prospects don't get it done for DDJ. I think it's going to be DDJ+ for something not DDJ broken down for parts. Otherwise, why go through all this to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?

SI

For your sake, I sure hope that's the plan. Trading him for younger guys would be tough to watch.

That's the question. I think someone on RoyalsReview had this one pegged perfect. Just like the Jacobs deal, it looks good viewed in a vacuum- take a reliever, the most inconsistent position, and trade for a position player with some useful attributes. However, again, like Jacobs- Crisp has as many flaws as he has strengths so maybe it's just a wash.Ehhh... it might make less sense because Crisp is only under club control for 2? years and won't be below-market after this one, but he's a much better player than Mike Jacobs. Above-average defensive CF'er with a .780 OPS last year when he was "struggling". Royals CF's were in the .640 range.

The numbers I've seen on Ramirez say 6 hr's in 51 IP at Coors and 3 in 155 elsewhere. Obviously, he's an injury-prone reliever, so this could end up looking foolish a couple months into the season (hello Gagne), but he seems like the best available reliever for the price.

I also really dislike the idea of moving Masterson to the rotation after this - his stuff doesn't play up as well in the rotation and he'd be league-average there, but he has the type of arm (easy delivery, power sinker) that can go 2-3 innings when needed and pitch back to back days to be an uber-reliever. Of course, it depends now on if Bowden/Buchholz/Masterson are traded for a catcher.

Ehhh... it might make less sense because Crisp is only under club control for 2? years and won't be below-market after this one, but he's a much better player than Mike Jacobs. Above-average defensive CF'er with a .780 OPS last year when he was "struggling". Royals CF's were in the .640 range.

Huh? What should have been the Royals main CF last year was DeJesus and he was at .818. However, I admit they had this fascination with trying to get Gathright and his .583 into the lineup every day and thusly bumping DeJesus to left where he's not nearly as valuable.

SI

Chase Utley will be out 3 to 5 months (from now) with hip surgery.

Chase Utley will be out 3 to 5 months (from now) with hip surgery.

Yeah, just saw that. Supposedly, he had hip issues since early in the second half of the season which caused his numbers to drop off. I'm no scout, but watching his at bats at the post season, his swing did seem a little tighter than usual when compared to at-bats in April/May.

It's a significant blow, but I think it's an extended spring training this year due to the World Baseball Classic. So, hopefully, he'll have a lot of time to rehab before spring training and should only miss a month or so of the regular season.

Pedro Feliz also had back surgery today. He's expected to be out 8-12 weeks.

Lastly, the Phillies sent outfielder Greg Golson to the Texas Rangers for John Mayberry. I know that Golson was roughly a 3-star prospect (out of 5) who had really good speed. The only thing I can find for the reasoning is that Mayberry has more power.

Any Rangers fans or other people who know about Mayberry have anything to add?

Mayberry is a talented corner OF who fails at hitting breaking stuff. Definitely needs more time in the minors even though he's getting old for a prospect. Mayberry was on the Rangers 40-man roster while I'm guessing Golson was not. Rangers (and everyone else) are sorting out their roster in preparation for the Rule 5 draft.

I think Golson was on the 40-man roster, actually. I know he was called up last year and went 0-for-6.

Also, the Phils added a few guys to their 40-man roster, including their best pitching prospect Carlos Carrasco. Although he's got a lot to prove in spring training, the Phillies rotation will be fantastic next year if we re-sign Moyer and Carrasco is ready to go as the #4 or #5.

As far as replacing Utley during the early part of the season, I'd think that Bruntlett/Jason Donald will platoon the position until Chase is ready to come back.

Huh? What should have been the Royals main CF last year was DeJesus and he was at .818. However, I admit they had this fascination with trying to get Gathright and his .583 into the lineup every day and thusly bumping DeJesus to left where he's not nearly as valuable.

SII mean, I completely agree Dejesus is a competent CF'er and he should have been playing there last year, which is why I had to check B-R and make sure Gammons didn't mess that number up. But if they weren't willing to put Dejesus in CF this year, and already said they'd go with him in LF and a prospect in CF next year, why would I count him as the primary CF? And it's pretty undeniable Coco is a better hitter than the Joey Gathright etc. pupu-platter the Royals used/were planning on using.

Giants are gonna throw an offer to Sabathia....rumor has it as 6 years for 120 mil

Giants are gonna throw an offer to Sabathia....rumor has it as 6 years for 120 mil

I assume this is in the hope that CC gets up to 350 lbs once he gets his money and eats Barry Zito.

Dola ..

Does anyone actually forsee Sabathia not getting even fatter then he already is once he gets paid?

Dude is a great pitcher, but he isn't exactly a workout warrior, which scares me when he is about to get around 130 + mil.