Mad Men Season 4 begins this Sunday at 10 PM EDT.

Good first episode tonight I thought. Lots of little changes to discuss and elements which will set up the new season, I think.

There will be chats! I suppose we're spoiler tagging current stuff?


"Take her out this weekend, then maybe come Thanksgiving you can stuff her" -- Glad to have you and your one liners back Roger.


Peggy has always been my favorite character on the show. With more control at a smaller company it looks like she's going to continue to grow and get more aggressive as she tries to find her place. Can't wait to see where that goes.


I loved the conversation with Henry Francis' mother about Betty. Bout time someone pointed out how shallow and simplistic she is.


WTF WTF WTF Don likes to be slapped around now!? Alrighty then.


The interview at the start of the episode seemed a little off to me. Don isn't really that dense, is he?


Lastly, I loved the outburst at the "two piece bathing suit" people. I'm sure its not the best business practices and the theme that the creative people are prima donnas has been around since the start, but that one seemed totally warranted.



Hooray for new Mad Men!

I'm glad to see Mad Men is back, but I wasn't overly impressed with last night's premier. That being said, I wasn't all that high on how seasons 2 or 3 got started either. Mad Men is a show that cooks with a slow burn, but by the end of the meal has revealed itself to be a culinary masterpiece (the finale to season three was brilliant).

A few of my own thoughts on last night's episode:

Peggy really is a great character, and it's good to see her becoming a stronger individual and exercising more initiative, even if it does backfire (the ham-fight incident). I was glad to see her stand up to Don a little bit at the end of the episode, and make him realize that he really is the only reason they can exist as their own firm.
The more I see of Betty, especially in the last year or so, the less I like her. It's really telling to the ability of the writers on this show that she is the one that was cheated on (first), and yet the audience still sympathizes with Don.
That being said, Don seems to have become quite a bit less likable between the end of Season 3 and now. No doubt that is the result of the divorce as well as the additional stress of his new work situation.
Pete is still greasy.
Roger still cracks me up.
I hope they make Pryce something of a likable character, and don't have him returning to his asshole-ways. It would be a shame to throw away all of the audience good-will that he earned with his role in the Season 3 finale.

One other thing I think is worthy of note: This is the only show I watch where I actually pay attention to the advertisements. It's fascinating to me to take what you've learned about advertising from watching the show and apply it to the adds that you're seeing during it. And I really like what they've done with BMW lately (IIRC didn't they do the same thing last season?), not just showing you an ad but showing you some of the history behind BMW's advertising. Interesting stuff.

The more I see of Betty, especially in the last year or so, the less I like her. It's really telling to the ability of the writers on this show that she is the one that was cheated on (first), and yet the audience still sympathizes with Don. [/LIST][/spoiler]

I agree. The writers have done a great job at twisting Betty that way. I used to sympathize with her when she learned about Don but now she's just as unlikeable as he is.

Whoa,

How is Don unlikeable?

He has vices, he can be a jerk, and I wouldn't want him to marry my sister, but the guy has cache.

I agree completely with Dataking on the ads.

I loved the end of the season 4 opener, that was just pure Mad Men greatness, a great start to the new season!

Nogram

How is Don unlikeable?

He lied about who he is to get out of Korea, he cheated on his wife constantly, he bought off the real Mrs Draper to keep his secret, he randomly disappears from work (california...) for days and expects it to be perfectly ok. He's a horrible father (leaving his daughter's birthday party to go pick up a cake real fast and just deciding not to go back home). He's obviously great at his job but not without some flaws there either.


Just a few examples, and Don is a complex character and you can spin lots of things with him good or bad, or at least can find ways to sympathize with the bad. Don't get me wrong, I love the character of Don Draper, and I find him to be much more likable than Betty, but he has many unlikable qualities about him.

I hadn't given this much thought, but it's pretty sad really.
‘Mad Men Still The Most-Heralded Show To Never Achieve a 1.0 Adults 18-49 Rating (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/07/27/mad-men-still-the-most-heralded-show-to-never-achieve-a-1-0-adults-18-49-rating/58340)

While the 2.9 million total audience is nice, the 0.9 rating with A18-49 is the same number posted by such sparkling fare as Billy the Exterminator and lower than Psych, Real World:Back to New Orleans, less than half of what Teen Mom got on MTV last week (a show that also did more total viewers). Hell, it's only .1 better than Warehouse 13. And that's not mentioning any of the shows from White Collar to Burn Notice to The Closer to Rizzoli & Isles that beat or even bury it.

None of which has anything to do with quality -- I find the show far too soapy for my taste, but it's extremely well done for what they try to do & I acknowledge it's quality -- but damn, I didn't consciously realize just how relatively poorly it performs compared to a lot of shows on cable.

I hadn't given this much thought, but it's pretty sad really.
‘Mad Men Still The Most-Heralded Show To Never Achieve a 1.0 Adults 18-49 Rating (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/07/27/mad-men-still-the-most-heralded-show-to-never-achieve-a-1-0-adults-18-49-rating/58340)

While the 2.9 million total audience is nice, the 0.9 rating with A18-49 is the same number posted by such sparkling fare as Billy the Exterminator and lower than Psych, Real World:Back to New Orleans, less than half of what Teen Mom got on MTV last week (a show that also did more total viewers). Hell, it's only .1 better than Warehouse 13. And that's not mentioning any of the shows from White Collar to Burn Notice to The Closer to Rizzoli & Isles that beat or even bury it.

None of which has anything to do with quality -- I find the show far too soapy for my taste, but it's extremely well done for what they try to do & I acknowledge it's quality -- but damn, I didn't consciously realize just how relatively poorly it performs compared to a lot of shows on cable.

It says alot about AMC, if you ask me. That they would continue to support the show without good ratings (relatively speaking). No matter how many awards it won, Fox would have killed this thing after 5 episodes if it got the same ratings (proportionate to the size of the network, obviously) on their network.

"How is Don unlikable" is a hilarious statement when you think about it. Just because he's the protagonist doesn't mean you'd think he was a wonderful person if you met him in real life.

Anyways, decent premiere and looks to be setting up some interesting plot points, especially with Don's self-loathing contrasting with his acknowledgement that he's the big man at SCDP.

It says alot about AMC, if you ask me.

Yeah, but I'm not sure what is actually says ;)

Right now they're getting their money off the (perceived?) quality of the audience, that's why BMW is throwing money on there. Not sure how long that lasts.

What it really tells me is that, for the show to survive for several more seasons, there'll be significant cast turnover unless every star takes less than what would be the normal bump for longevity. The numbers seem very doubtful to justify major raises (beyond what's already been done IIRC).

The other thing to consider for Mad Men is the timeshifted numbers:

Nielsen’s Top 10 TV Shows of 2009 | The Hollywood Reporter | Live Feed (http://livefeed.hollywoodreporter.com/2009/12/nielsens-top-10-tv-shows-of-2009.html)

Mad Men was 2nd in timeshifted viewers after the final season of Battlestar Galactica.

Mad Men was 2nd in timeshifted viewers after the final season of Battlestar Galactica.

Please note that those refer to HH numbers, and also to percentage increase, not A18-49 (which is specifically where MM is off) and not to actual numbers.

They could add 50% to their audience and still not even crack the top 20.

Good to have MM back with Don Draper giving a great end of episode scene.

Stuff I enjoyed from the details:

The kids watching Sky King;
Mention of the Griswold Inn in Essex CT. My wife and I went there a few times before the kid. Would have liked to have seen it, but that would have been more production costs;
The Chicken Kiev craze. They should have gone to the Russian Tea Room ("Slightly to the left of Carnegie Hall") for it, but otherwise that was cool.

On the other hand, I don't think Don could have been watching a football game at 10 PM EST when Betty and Henry came home. The pro games were over by 7 back then. There was essentially one college game per weekend until the early 1970's, too, mostly mid-afternoon. There was the ND highlight show with Lindsey Nelson, but that was always Sunday at 11 AM in NYC.

I really like the way Don can show respect for Peggy and still chew her out. And Peggy gives back as well--"We're all here for you."

Henry and his mom discussing Betty was a great scene. And Henry taking the table insert to the basement while wearing his suit and tie was brilliant, too. Reminded me of how my uncles used to dress for holidays.

Last night's episode was definitely an improvement over the premiere for me. Things felt more focused and less about just getting us caught up with the characters' lives. A few scenes that I really enjoyed and other thoughts:


The scenes with Lee Garner Jr. were brilliant, especially the bit with Roger dressing up as Santa Claus. You could tell that Lee knows that he pretty much owns the firm, and was taking pleasure in exercising that power.
The return of Glen was brilliant. I'm intrigued to see what happens with he and Sally, and how Betty reacts when she learns who vandalized the house.
Peggy's boyfriend is an idiot. That is all.
I was glad to see Freddy return. He's one of those characters I find eminently like-able, despite (or perhaps because of) his numerous faults.
I'm not quite sure yet what to make of Don and his secretary, but it is rather fun to see Don strike out on numerous occasions. You can tell it is a completely foreign experience to him, and he's having trouble figuring out how to react.
The Dove add was brilliant. :D

I enjoyed the interaction with Don and the secretary. He was intoxicated, but you can tell he likes her. I felt having her read the Santa Claus letter was a sign that he trusts her more then just any secretary. The conversation the following morning was typical Don. He is slightly insensitive towards woman and just does not understand how to deal with emotions. The secretary seems like a likeable enough character. Would enjoy seeing that relationship expand to and see what happens.

The agency Christmas party was beautifully done, scary in its accuracy (even with some slight exaggeration easily forgiven).

The agency Christmas party was beautifully done, scary in its accuracy (even with some slight exaggeration easily forgiven).

I really enjoyed Don's little banter with Roger the following morning, obviously designed to help Roger save face. Very well written.

Did anyone else think Don's secretary was typing her resignation letter after he gave her her Christmas bonus?

Did anyone else think Don's secretary was typing her resignation letter after he gave her her Christmas bonus?

That was my first reaction too.

I was excited to see Freddy Rumsen's return. Now if they'd just bring back Sal! Also, where has Ken Cosgrove been? Aaron Staton is still listed in the opening credits.

Creepiest Christmas ever?

Glen is back, insta-creepy.

Lucky Strike guy making the entire ad company his bitch, yeah pretty creepy. Holy crap was the scene where he got Roger to play Santa awkward.

Don sleeps with his secretary and then pretends it doesn't happen the next day. Yup.

But the creepiest of all was the scene after Peggy sleeps with her boyfriend. Her eyes, wide and terrified... if you'd just shown me that image alone I would have assumed she'd been raped.


The scene with the secretary in the office after Don loses his keys was small but important too I thought... one of the younger new guys in the office says "he's pathetic" as the secretary walks by. Remember how revered he was at Sterling Cooper the last 3 seasons? No one in those old offices would have ever even thought that about Don Draper, much less expressed it.


I'm glad to see Freddy back, kinda. His storyline *seems* an obvious one. Everyone will drink like a fish around him, he won't be strong enough to resist forever, he'll start drinking again and fall apart again, maybe this time he'll piss himself in front of a client, and his life will be ruined. Maybe they go another way with it, I hope so, because I kinda don't want to see that unfold.

Also, its Christmas 1964 now... they framed the end of season 1 around the kennedy/nixon, season 2 was the cuban missle crisis, season 3 kennedy's assassination, so I spent a little time on the "1965" wiki page:


# February 21 – Malcolm X is assassinated in Manhattan.
# March 7 – Bloody Sunday: Some 200 Alabama State Troopers clash with 525 civil rights demonstrators in Selma, Alabama.
# March 8 – Vietnam War: Some 3,500 United States Marines arrive in South Vietnam, becoming the first American combat troops in Vietnam.
# March 17

* In Montgomery, Alabama, 1,600 civil rights marchers demonstrate at the Courthouse.
* In response to the events of March 7 and 9 in Selma, Alabama, President Lyndon B. Johnson sends a bill to Congress that forms the basis for the Voting Rights Act of 1965. It is passed by the Senate May 26, the House July 10, and signed into law by President Johnson Aug. 6.

# Cosmonaut Aleksei Leonov, leaving his spacecraft Voskhod 2 for 12 minutes, becomes the first person to walk in space.

# March 25 – Martin Luther King, Jr. and 25,000 civil rights activists successfully end the 4-day march from Selma, Alabama, to the capitol in Montgomery.

# May 5 – The first draft card burnings take place at the University of California, Berkeley, and a coffin is marched to the Berkeley Draft Board.

# July 28 – Vietnam War: U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson announces his order to increase the number of United States troops in South Vietnam from 75,000 to 125,000, and to more than double the number of men drafted per month - from 17,000 to 35,000.

# July 30 – War on Poverty: U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson signs the Social Security Act of 1965 into law, establishing Medicare and Medicaid. (*** Medicare was mentioned in last night's episode)

# August 1 – Cigarette advertising is banned on British television.

# August 6 – U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson signs the Voting Rights Act of 1965 into law.

# August 11 – The Watts Riots begin in Los Angeles, California.

# August 15 – The Beatles perform the first stadium concert in the history of rock, playing at Shea Stadium in New York.




Joan's husband is going to Vietnam this season, right? That's a lock to happen I assume. It will be interesting to see how they handle the draft, Vietnam in general, and the civil rights movment, which has been touched on in numerous awkward ways over the first 3 years but its really heating up under LBJ.

Glen is awesome in his creepiness, made even weirder by the fact that he is Matthew Weiner's son. "Man my kid is creepy, I gotta get him in the show somehow!"

Do we really need spoilers in this thread? If so, I'll go back and update the post I suppose ... but it seems a bit silly.

I remain perplexed by Don's inability to demonstrate the kind of awareness in his personal life that he has with his work life. Also, given some of the dimwits he has had as secretaries over the years since Peggy I'm a little surprised that he would jeopardize it like he did.

It seemed like he was just on auto-pilot in that scene - it wasn't something he planned out but just did because he was drunk and that is what he does. But once it happened I would think he would value the work relationship enough to try and make it less awkward. The bonus at that point was really badly calculated. $100 in those days would (I imagine) have been a great bonus and I'm sure would have been extremely warmly received one day earlier.

I think Peggy's "look" at the end was her disappointment with the fact that she had found yet another disposable guy, and a growing awareness that she is going to have a bunch of New Years alone or like this one. Not a comforting thought for a woman in those times, I expect.

I'm a little surprised they moved as fast as they did on the "Lucky Strike" story ... I had expected that one to marinate for a couple of episodes before coming into play. It would be hard for Lee to be a bigger douche. Oh well, at least the 71% stake is down to 69% assuming they keep the Dove account. Still can't believe they lost the jai alai business :)

In terms of landing new accounts, I'm surprised there has been no mention of Conrad Hilton. Once Don struck out on his own I figured Conrad would be one of his first calls. Was there something I'm forgetting from the last season that would preclude this from happening?

Spoilers are fine. How do I edit the thread title?

I hadn't given this much thought, but it's pretty sad really.
‘Mad Men Still The Most-Heralded Show To Never Achieve a 1.0 Adults 18-49 Rating (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/07/27/mad-men-still-the-most-heralded-show-to-never-achieve-a-1-0-adults-18-49-rating/58340)

While the 2.9 million total audience is nice, the 0.9 rating with A18-49 is the same number posted by such sparkling fare as Billy the Exterminator and lower than Psych, Real World:Back to New Orleans, less than half of what Teen Mom got on MTV last week (a show that also did more total viewers). Hell, it's only .1 better than Warehouse 13. And that's not mentioning any of the shows from White Collar to Burn Notice to The Closer to Rizzoli & Isles that beat or even bury it.

None of which has anything to do with quality -- I find the show far too soapy for my taste, but it's extremely well done for what they try to do & I acknowledge it's quality -- but damn, I didn't consciously realize just how relatively poorly it performs compared to a lot of shows on cable.
All TV ratings really make you wonder about their accuracy (did only 13 million people really watch the finale of Lost?) but Mad Men really makes you wonder.

It has typically built its audience up 60% on DVR and the additional airings have done well in the numbers. Plus it's obviously available on cable On Demand and online. So maybe that 2.9 million becomes 10 million before it's all said and done. Who really knows?

The demo number is really mind boggling too. I know the nature of the show makes it skew a bit older but I know dozens of people who watch the show and they are all in the 18-49 demo.

I know the timeslot is a bitch. I watch half the time on DVR because late night Sunday night is a bad time for me. Battlestar Galactica ended up in the same time slot, and it's numbers also went down from when it was on Friday nights.

The numbers are a mystery. It seems like more people watch the show but numbers are numbers.

The demo number is really mind boggling too. I know the nature of the show makes it skew a bit older but I know dozens of people who watch the show and they are all in the 18-49 demo.

Whereas outside of this board, I don't know a single person under 50 watching it with the exception of a couple of friends/acquaintances in advertising. Now granted, FOFC'ers count just the same for the purposes of the conversation but it's quite amazing to me how popular it is here versus everywhere else in my life.

The numbers are a mystery. It seems like more people watch the show but numbers are numbers.

I dunno, I mean it caught me by surprise to see the numbers in black & white but at the same time, the amount of watercoolerish buzz the show has in my life is about on par with what these numbers would suggest to me if you remove the skew my high percentage of advertising people would cause. I actually do know more people who watched the spinoff about the pregnant chick from Real Housewives than watch MM.

Whereas outside of this board, I don't know a single person under 50 watching it with the exception of a couple of friends/acquaintances in advertising. Now granted, FOFC'ers count just the same for the purposes of the conversation but it's quite amazing to me how popular it is here versus everywhere else in my life.



I dunno, I mean it caught me by surprise to see the numbers in black & white but at the same time, the amount of watercoolerish buzz the show has in my life is about on par with what these numbers would suggest to me if you remove the skew my high percentage of advertising people would cause. I actually do know more people who watched the spinoff about the pregnant chick from Real Housewives than watch MM.

your life and your experiences are strange and abnormal, rather than normal.

I still think numbers are way off on TV stuff. I know a ton of people watching Mad Men. One day they're going to really figure out a more accurate way to do this and be completely shocked at how far off they were.

your life and your experiences are strange and abnormal, rather than normal.

The numbers say otherwise.

I still think numbers are way off on TV stuff. I know a ton of people watching Mad Men. One day they're going to really figure out a more accurate way to do this and be completely shocked at how far off they were.

Yep, they'll be even lower than what the current system suggests. (not just for MM but for TV in general)

Yep, they'll be even lower than what the current system suggests. (not just for MM but for TV in general)
I don't know. I think each show is different. For instance, a lot of people may watch late night talk shows, but are they really watching? Or are they getting ready for bed, doing some side stuff, and just have it on as background noise? I doubt someone watching Mad Men or any other ongoing drama is putting it on as background noise.

I guess the question is whether a viewer of Mad Men is worth more than a viewer of Jay Leno.

Well, if those demos are just being used to determine advertising rates and targets, then you're faced with a question of whether advertising is any less (or more) effective as background noise. Someone shouting "McDonalds!" at me, while I'm not paying attention, might actually be equally effective as watching one of their ads, which seem to be mostly comprised of vague psychological cues and repetition, anyhow.

I doubt someone watching Mad Men or any other ongoing drama is putting it on as background noise.

I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised then. Multi-tasking with the TV on is becoming more & more commonplace, latest survey shows 59% surf the web while watching TV at least occasionally for example. Factor in helping kids with homework, doing your own work, hell my wife reads with the TV on somewhat frequently. She's an MM fan, but even she had the laptop going while it was on last night. The days of people staring at the screen immobile are dwindling fast.

Well, if those demos are just being used to determine advertising rates and targets, then you're faced with a question of whether advertising is any less (or more) effective as background noise. Someone shouting "McDonalds!" at me, while I'm not paying attention, might actually be equally effective as watching one of their ads, which seem to be mostly comprised of vague psychological cues and repetition, anyhow.

That's a question that comes up more & more with regard to DVR's and skipping.

There's some studies that point to ads being effective when being fast-forwarded IF it's an ad that the viewer has seen before & is familiar with. Basically if you know the ad then you kind of play it in your head even if you're not watching it normally. An unexpected by-product of DVR's could turn out to be fewer copy changes with advertisers sticking with spots longer than usual, but that's still down the road a bit, the data isn't overwhelming to support it so far.

That was my first reaction too.

Yep

Mad Men is a very very niche show. I'm not surprised by the numbers at all. Those who are in disbelief need to realize that they are using selection bias when thinking its popular.

Hell, in the subset of my friends Louis CK is the funniest person alive and Parks and Recreation the best comedy on television. Far from the whole country, though.

I know very few people that watch Mad Men. Maybe two people.

I do get a lot of, "Mad Men? I've heard that's a really good show just never seen it. It's pretty good?"

Hell, in the subset of my friends Louis CK is the funniest person alive and Parks and Recreation the best comedy on television. Far from the whole country, though.

Thank God

;)

I loved that episode. Lane Pryce is awesome, the entire 2nd half of the episode with Lane and Don was wonderful. I really hope the storyline with Anna Draper isn't over yet and that there is a lot more coming than just a letter or notice that she's died. Joan's husband needs to go to Vietnam and die already.

If Joan's husband has one thing going for him on this show, other than Joan, it is the joke he gave in this episode.

I'm not sure that visit to California will have quite the same healing power on Don as the previous one. The look on his face when he hit the mattress suggests that he is nowhere close to settled yet despite his "guys night out" with Lane.

Looks like next week will be, at least more than the first few weeks, a Pete Campbell episode. That guy has been a ghost so far this season.

Did anyone else notice a) that Bert Cooper was absent from the meeting at the very end of the episode and b) that in the trailer for next week's episode someone told Pete Campbell that he was being made a partner at the firm? Could Cooper have died and Campbell replaces him?

i never watch the upcoming clips but campbell being made partner made me say "What?!" out loud

even though pete is my favorite character, that makes little sense

Has anyone heard what happened to Ken Cosgrove and Paul Kinsey? Is anyone else hoping for a Sal return this season?

I am pretty sure Pete was already made a partner to convince him to join. He just doesn't have his name on the firm.

My thought is that it might have something to do with Pete's relationship with his wife. Didn't he bring in some big account through her father? Maybe that's what they were referring to?

Yeah, Pete's already a partner. Didn't see the trailer though, I avoid those for all shows. Too many spoilers in them.

I love Don's relationship with Anna Draper, I hope there's more to that story as well. Starting to get a little annoying and predictable that you can tell what woman Don will hook up with(or at least try) after a half a second of screen time for them.

Starting to get a little annoying and predictable that you can tell what woman Don will hook up with(or at least try) after a half a second of screen time for them.

Agreed. The minute that girl walked into the room I knew Don would end up getting her alone and making a move. I actually wondered aloud why the woman would leave her daughter with Don.

She was definitely one. The blonde giving the test he refused was the other. She was literally on screen for maybe 1 or 2 seconds before that one was clear. Pretty much a done deal there and that storyline has barely started.

I actually thought they did a decent job of "surprise!" with the secretary in the prior episode. They had suggested the advertising exec (refused test) and the neighbor earlier in the episode, and I had expected him to land one of them to sit on Santa's lap near the end of that episode. I thought the secretary was a surprise ending there.

But I agree that he is hitting on everything with a pulse right now, and his volume game hasn't quite measured up to the standards that he set in Seasons 1-3.

Is anyone else hoping for a Sal return this season?

I'm all for Sal making a return to the show. Excellent character.

Yeah, I was surprised he was given the boot. Have a hard time believing it's not temporary.

That's the only issue I have with the show. There are a lot of teases that just get dropped off the map, forgotten about, then picked up again several episodes later. They definitely began working his relationship with his wife, pretty clear she knows what is going on.

that was a good hour of tv right there last night

that was a good hour of tv right there last night

Agreed. So what do you think will happen to Don the rest of this season given the profound changes he's undergone recently?

I think the director knows that the majority of the audience is pulling for Don to "find himself" again and stop being drunk/pathetic Don. In that light, the scene with him breaking out the typewriter at home was cruel :)

Peggy was cracking me up last night, especially peeking over the wall into Don's office.

"He doesn't own your vagina."

"No, but he's renting it. "

"He doesn't own your vagina."

"No, but he's renting it. "

Dear god yes. That, and "$1000 if its a boy, $500 if its a girl" were easily the lines of the episode IMO.

Though I think my favorite moment was Pete's quick dismissive shrug at the father in law's "you son of a bitch" insult.

Poor Allison :( Maybe that will help Don get his shit together.

Lastly... sad to see Betty in the previews for next week. Two weeks without her was nice.

For those of you interested, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, the movie of the Broadway show that made Robert Morse famous, is on this Monday at 1:55 AM. It will be interesting to see if there are any points that have been used in Mad Men. Its been years since I watched this, so my DVR is set.

I loved that episode. Lane Pryce is awesome, the entire 2nd half of the episode with Lane and Don was wonderful. I really hope the storyline with Anna Draper isn't over yet and that there is a lot more coming than just a letter or notice that she's died. Joan's husband needs to go to Vietnam and die already.

Watched the last two episodes last night, and I must say Don getting Lane drunk and taking him to see Godzilla is up there with my favorite moments.

Jesus Christ Roger. Interesting to see the post WWII Japan stuff addressed in some way, especially after we've had conversations about it here. "Everyone here likes surprises" blew me away. I was less blown away as he got less subtle but the Pearl Harbor dig... god damn.

Too damn much Betty. Betty is a horrible person and mother, Don's not great but all we ever see of Betty is how horrible a person and mother she is. The Sally scene creeped me the fuck out, which I guess is a good sign that I'm not a pedo, eh?

The ploy with Honda was brilliant, best work we've seen from Don so far this season. Pure brilliance. Love the discussion on Honda cars at the end of the episode.


Line of the episode for me: (translated, re: Joan) "How does she not fall over?" A++


Lastly, I love the irony of Betty telling the shrink that she'll never see Don, and then sending the housekeeper to take Sally to her first appointment. Fuck you Betty.

Line of the episode for me: (translated, re: Joan) "How does she not fall over?" A++




Concur!!

Really enjoyed the episode. If someone ever asks why Mad Men fans side with the philandering husband over the betrayed wife this episode should be Exhibit A.

Was nice to see Don back to being himself this episode. Both with his account manipulation and also taking the right position on the Pete/Roger confrontation.

Shrink - "4 times a week" to start for an ten year old girl. Yeesh. Was the shrink supposed to be creepy, or does that say something about me?

Man, I tell you, Sally is going to be screwed up. I know that we all saw it coming, but she's crying out for attention, and Betty is the one who is always around... poor girl!

You know, maybe I was just reading to much into it, but even at the time I expected Betty's dad to try something really horrible on Sally. (With some of the odd moments of that relationship that were shown, and the possible foreshadowing of when he came on to Betty because of the Alzheimer's.) And now I am wondering with the possible foreshadowing of Betty's line that Sally has had issues since her grandfather died...

With a show like Mad Men that skips months routinely (and has a lot of action off screen) it is hard not to wonder what kind of big events in the characters' lives happen off screen and are yet to be revealed.

This season started off a little weak IMO, but in typical Mad Men fashion it is getting stronger with every episode. A few of my own thoughts regarding this Sunday's episode (some of these will probably echo things that have already been said):

Roger's attempted sabotage with the Honda execs was brilliantly-done, but I had a hard time believing his tail-between-the-legs apology. It actually felt too sincere for him. I'd have found it a little more believable if he'd apologized, but still laid on some of his sarcasm.
F*ck you Pete Campbell, the world does not revolve around you.
F*ck you Betty, the world does not revolve around you. (I may despise both Pete and Betty, but that doesn't make them bad characters...on the contrary).
Don's play on the Honda situation was brilliant. The stunts they pulled had me laughing throughout. Definitely Don's best move (professionally) of the season.
I also feel sorry for Sally. If the show lasts long enough, you just know she's going to be some sort of flower-child or drug-addict (she'd be what, 14 or 15 in '69?)

F*ck you Pete Campbell, the world does not revolve around you.
F*ck you Betty, the world does not revolve around you. (I may despise both Pete and Betty, but that doesn't make them bad characters...on the contrary).
[/LIST]

With the "I despise but that doesn't make them bad characters" thought I agree with you on Pete, though this last episode I thought he was spot on pretty much everywhere and actually enjoyed his role.

Betty however... I know we need to see Don's family, but I don't enjoy it. The scene with Betty talking to the shrink in this last episode was the first time I've ever fastfowarded through anything in Mad Men. I watched a little of it and then just flat out skipped it when I realized it was going to drag on and I just couldn't care less about Betty's problems. The less screen time she has the better.

Yeah, the thing about Pete is that while he's a dick, he seems to be more and more 'right' about things. He's getting big accounts and he was right that dealing with the Japanese is the smart thing to do.

I also feel sorry for Sally. If the show lasts long enough, you just know she's going to be some sort of flower-child or drug-addict (she'd be what, 14 or 15 in '69?)


She's what? 11 now in 1965... so yeah, 14 or 15.

Yeah, the thing about Pete is that while he's a dick, he seems to be more and more 'right' about things. He's getting big accounts and he was right that dealing with the Japanese is the smart thing to do.

Pete was certainly right about Honda, but for the wrong reasons. He can't accept Roger's hatred for the Japanese as something completely external to himself, and instead has to claim that it's an effort on Roger's part to sabotage the progress Pete is making (I'm referring to the scene in Roger's office directly after the first meeting with the men from Honda).

Dola.

Pete is one of those guys where, every once in a while you see the human side of him and I just start to think "hey maybe I could actually get to like this guy," then within 5 minutes he pulls a dick move like what he did to his father-in-law in last week's episode.

Pete was certainly right about Honda, but for the wrong reasons. He can't accept Roger's hatred for the Japanese as something completely external to himself, and instead has to claim that it's an effort on Roger's part to sabotage the progress Pete is making (I'm referring to the scene in Roger's office directly after the first meeting with the men from Honda).

But as Don said, he was right (well, partially). Part of Roger's ego inflation is the fact that his client is the cash cow.

Yeah, it wasn't so much about trying to sabotage Pete because he doesn't want Pete specifically to succeed. He doesn't want the company to get to a point where it can exist without Lucky Strike. Which I think was Pete's point.

As for Pete himself, similar to you guys I really didn't like him the first season or two. But he's really grown on me, I think being made a partner has removed a lot of the pettiness and insecurities from his character.

Yeah, it wasn't so much about trying to sabotage Pete because he doesn't want Pete specifically to succeed. He doesn't want the company to get to a point where it can exist without Lucky Strike. Which I think was Pete's point.

That was Pete's point, but the way I saw it Lucky Strike had nothing to do with Roger's motivations. He obviously still maintains a (somewhat understandable) hatred against the Japanese for the hardships he and his friends endured during World War II. I never saw Lucky Strike as the reason for Roger's sabotage efforts. That's what Pete saw, but it's not what I saw, which I think is part of the reason I still see Pete as somewhat petty.

And it certainly speaks to the quality of both the acting and the writing of the show that people can watch the same scene and see entirely different things going on "behind the scenes."

I don't think Roger apologizes, no matter how insincere he may or may not be, without him coming to the realization that there was truth to what Pete said. Or maybe Lucky Strike played a little more subtle a role. Roger was not only mad because he's not a fan of the Japanese, but he's upset Draper and Cooper didn't side with him over Pete. After all the fate of the company lies in his client. So people should do what he says.

I suppose Cooper could have had words with him and they didn't show it(unless I'm blanking on it).

You know, maybe I was just reading to much into it, but even at the time I expected Betty's dad to try something really horrible on Sally. (With some of the odd moments of that relationship that were shown, and the possible foreshadowing of when he came on to Betty because of the Alzheimer's.) And now I am wondering with the possible foreshadowing of Betty's line that Sally has had issues since her grandfather died...

With a show like Mad Men that skips months routinely (and has a lot of action off screen) it is hard not to wonder what kind of big events in the characters' lives happen off screen and are yet to be revealed.


I got this same vibe and i'm kind of hoping they don't go there. There's enough material in seeing a girl come of age sexually in that era without adding on the melodrama of grandpa diddling her.

Add me to the list of folks that hopes they're not going that direction with Sally. In some strangely fascinating way, she's always been one of my favorite characters and more interesting than the typical child prop. I like that they are creating certain tensions with her in the current season, but I'll be really disappointed if they follow through on a revelation like that or go all the way with anything unnecessarily provocative.

I'd rather not see it, although for different reasons. Her grandfather is dead. How exactly do you that close that can of worms? There's nothing to confront and no real way to form any type of closure. It's something that would hang in the air as long as she was on the show.

I'm chalking it up to her simply coming to terms with death and having it awkwardly coincide with puberty.

Pete is one of those guys where, every once in a while you see the human side of him and I just start to think "hey maybe I could actually get to like this guy," then within 5 minutes he pulls a dick move like what he did to his father-in-law in last week's episode.

Absolutely. That's why I love his character. You hate him but then sympathize with him, too. Great writing.

The best joke was the final tune, Doris Day singing I Enjoy Being a Girl from Flower Drum Song.

Also, I've been wondering how much of this series was cribbed from the Jerry Della Femina best seller:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OJX58IcKL._SS500_.jpg

Perhaps more than I first thought.

Pretty good episode tonight with some interesting flashbacks to when Roger hired Don at Sterling Cooper. It seemed to me that Don was back to his "weaker" state despite being more on top of things last episode. I'm not sure where the Peggy-new art director storyline is going. It seems like maybe they'll end up being much closer than they are now. I'm glad to see Kenny return, too. Can Sal be far behind?

I love Peggy.

Don was hard to watch this episode. I wonder if the season finale will be Don hitting rock bottom or if it will happen before the end of the season and we can end this season on some other sort of note than Don's drunkeness costing the firm Lucky Strike.

I loved seeing that all of the talk of Roger "finding" Don was all full of shit and that Don would have found his way in somehow, Roger just happened to be the person he happened to run into and force his way into the business via.

I'm curious how the Lucky Strike thing is going to end as well. That company has been in the background since the 2nd episode, but continues to dominate business decisions at SCDP.

I suppose its fair that Pete gets to establish himself as the "alpha male" with Cosgrove, given his partner status, but does he have to be such a douche about it?

Peggy just owned that guy.

At least Don wasn't as sloppy as Duck, I suppose. "I feel like I already won" was the line of the episode for me.

Random observation, made whilst parking my ass in front of the TV: This show (ostensibly TV's current best drama) is actually funnier than 'Louie' (ostensibly one of TV's current best comedies). Which is not to imply that 'Louie' is a bad show in any way, simply that a current episode of 'Mad Men' literally has more comedic moments than an episode of 'Louie'. I love the old-bat secretary, despite the fact that so many of her gags are completely obvious, and Peggy's been getting in 3 or 4 hillarious moments seemingly every week. 'Louie', on the other hand, is just as likely to make you laugh out of anxiety or nerves, rather than any sort of typical punchline.

A so-so Mad Men episode last night IMO (which is to say, still far-and-away better than most everything else on TV currently). The background scenes to when Don was first hired by Roger were unexpected, but interesting. But what I really loved this time around was the time-pass transitions over the weekend, when the camera was focused on Don. Especially the first one, from Friday-to-Sunday. Brilliantly done.

Christina Hendricks. That is all.

I loved seeing that all of the talk of Roger "finding" Don was all full of shit and that Don would have found his way in somehow, Roger just happened to be the person he happened to run into and force his way into the business via.

I thought, however, it had greater connotations. Especially when you compare it to Roger's cousin and the round about way he got hired. Roger basically looked at Don as Don did to Roger's cousin and I wonder if the cousin actually ends up being a pretty good ad man (and then Don gets to claim he "found" the cousin... when all that happened is he stole his tagline and was forced to give him a job).

I thought, however, it had greater connotations. Especially when you compare it to Roger's cousin and the round about way he got hired. Roger basically looked at Don as Don did to Roger's cousin and I wonder if the cousin actually ends up being a pretty good ad man (and then Don gets to claim he "found" the cousin... when all that happened is he stole his tagline and was forced to give him a job).

Yeah most definitely, it will be interesting to see if that kid becomes a regular character on the show or if this was just done to show how dangerously close Don is to totally losing it with the alcohol (edit to add:) by comparing him with a fairly worthless drunken roger.

im surprised at the pete hate here. he's my favorite character by far

then again, i dont like don (but i dont think youre supposed to)

obviously betty sucks

obviously betty sucks

Betty has never had to suck anything in her life. That's one of her problems.

I don't think you are really supposed to like anyone but Peggy.

I'm conflicted on Peggy. I love the character, but the acting is just so incredibly bland. I can't tell if that's by design or not. Has been getting much better this season though.

This episode was a long time coming and they aced it. Loved how Ana's death dovetailed to Peggy.

OK, so a couple of questions:
1.) Thoughts on Anna with the suitcase? Was there something there I was missing?
2.) Similarly, was there some symbolism with the mouse? I thought it was going to come back around to Samsonite, but that did not materialize
3.) Did Don's campaign suck? Peggy was asking him same questions Don asked and Don more or less bullied her at the end ... which is his right as the boss, but was the campaign a loser?

I don't think you are really supposed to like anyone but Peggy.

So much for that.... though she redeems herself somewhat at the end. The whole thing with the boyfriend was just so utterly horrid. WTF Peggy?

I KILLED 17 MEN IN OKINAWA.

So much for that.... though she redeems herself somewhat at the end. The whole thing with the boyfriend was just so utterly horrid. WTF Peggy?

I think this is mostly transparent, though perhaps I am making some leaps. Peggy is a 21st century gal. She wants to work, she loves her career, but she feels severely pressured by what society says she's supposed to do. She's not supposed to put work before family, she's supposed to get married and have kids, and if she doesn't people think she's broken. She's just conflicted enough by it to go through the motions but in the end career is always going to win.

I don't love Peggy because she's pure, or nice, or isn't a racist, or whatever. I like Peggy because she is the only character on the show who can persevere through anything. No matter what happens around her she is going to get her shit done, she may have her inner conflict but really her boyfriend was a turd anyway, good riddance. She always manages to find her way through the minefield of alcoholics and sexist stereotypes and people underestimating her and all the other bullshit she has in her life b/c she's trying to build a career in the 50s/60s and comes out ahead and better off for it.


Tonight's episode might have been my favorite episode of Mad Men ever. I am tired and just finished it though. Can't wait to see more comments on it and need more time to process heh.

So, does Peggy learn about Dick Whitman at some point? Or does Don continue to let her get a bit closer during moments here and there when his guard is a bit down and then massively push her away?

With all of the talk from Roger about the AA losers earlier in the episode, as things progressed I actually thought there was a non-zero chance that the last scene of this episode would be "My name is Don Draper and I'm an alcoholic" ... a bit too much to hope for I suppose, Don isn't done crashing yet.

I KILLED 17 MEN IN OKINAWA.

I love that Don actually said "uncle" hahah

I thought the scene with him on the phone and then realizing that Peggy was still in the room was so well done. I too had completely forgotten that she was there and it really put the punctuation on the whole moment.

I thought it was one of the best episodes of tv, ever. I loved how Don started talking to Peggy in the same way he talked to Anna.

The scenes when he was opening up to Peggy in a matter of fact way was done with perfect restraint. I think the mouse served as a way for him to talk about growing up on a farm.

The touch of the hand at the end was great, for once Don didn't shut down "the morning after"

Duck has skillz. Took Don's back, threw on some kinda anaconda choke, tossed him to the ground with an inside leg trip, right into the full mount, ready for palm strikes to the bridge of the nose.

THIS FIGHT IS OVER! DUCK PHILLIPS CAN BANG! DUCK PHILLIPS IS NO JOKE!

I think this is mostly transparent, though perhaps I am making some leaps. Peggy is a 21st century gal. She wants to work, she loves her career, but she feels severely pressured by what society says she's supposed to do. She's not supposed to put work before family, she's supposed to get married and have kids, and if she doesn't people think she's broken. She's just conflicted enough by it to go through the motions but in the end career is always going to win.

I got that. And I think Peggy will fit an Anna role with Don, but the boyfriend (as unsatisfactory as he was) was correct that she'll never stand up Don. Yes, career is always going to win over anything personal, but I'm not sure that's a good thing. We don't celebrate people who put their jobs over everything else... or at least we shouldn't.

What a great episode last night.

Don't have much time to type right now, but I just had to pop on and say that Sunday night's episode was the best in the entire series (thus far). Absolutely epic. The argument between Don and Peggy was perfectly done. Absolute f'ing perfection.

SF Gate TV guy does a fun deconstruction of each episode. Here is the link for the latest. Amazing the buzz this episode is getting

"Mad Men" Spoiled Bastard. Ep. 7: "The Suitcase." : Tim Goodman. The Bastard Machine (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/tgoodman/detail?entry_id=71767)

Only got around to watching this last night. A great episode, indeed, but no love for Ida Blankenship, the office 1930's hotty, according to Roger's tape?

"If I wanted to watch two Negroes fight, I'd throw a dollar out of my window."

Anna carrying the suitcase on her way to 'a better place' (Don's words) tied in nicely with the Samsonite ads.

Most of you probably do not remember that American Tourister used the gorilla tossing around the suitcase idea in 1970.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2ZeIoLz8FE

One last thing, the parallel between the Liston-Clay fight and the Don-Duck fight was clever. Both were extremely brief, and the winner was not expected. Nearly every sports writer picked Liston to win easily, and you would have thought the much younger Don would demolish Duck, too. Don saying 'Uncle' reminded me of the 'No Mas' response from Roberto Duran.

I KILLED 17 MEN IN OKINAWA.

Liston Vs. Clay: The braggart won.
Don vs. Duck: The braggart won.

The more I think about this episode, the greater it gets.

One last thing, the parallel between the Liston-Clay fight and the Don-Duck fight was clever. Both were extremely brief, and the winner was not expected. Nearly every sports writer picked Liston to win easily, and you would have thought the much younger Don would demolish Duck, too. Don saying 'Uncle' reminded me of the 'No Mas' response from Roberto Duran.

I hadn't caught that at all, awesome :)

Yes, career is always going to win over anything personal, but I'm not sure that's a good thing. We don't celebrate people who put their jobs over everything else... or at least we shouldn't.

Never saw this reply, you're right there of course, and just because i love peggy and her hopefully now ex-boyfriend is a bit of a turd doesn't mean it wasn't a really shitty thing to do.

I guess I like seeing Peggy want her career and go for it and shoo away the societal pressure to have a family to the point that I'm more willing to overlook some pretty bad flaws she has a lot more than I am with the other characters who I don't like as much :D

And that is perfectly understandable :D.

I do like that Mad Men doesn't try to make a character completely "likable", and when Don was become too idolized, the Mad Men crew decided to take him down (because as like in The Sopranos, the main character isn't supposed to be a good person).

did anyone else think that was a really bad episode?

slow motion close ups of alcohol, the lame zooming in while dollying out, the even lamer shot of don "drowning", coupled with never ending diary writing?

an aesop fable, betty's last line of "we have everything" or whatever crap it was

first time maybe ever i was glad an episode of mad men was finally over

Last night's episode was definitely a downer after the brilliant one the week before. But I did actually enjoy Don's journal voice-over, not for the mechanism itself but for some of the things he said. And the little "conversation" between Joan and Peggy in the elevator was pretty good.

I didn't think it was a very strong episode and I didn't care for Don's voiceover. We've rarely heard voiceovers to convey thoughts before so I don't see the need to start doing so now.

The highlight of the episode for me was the elevator conversation between Peggy and Joan. Peggy (and the audience) thought she did something good but Joan ripped her down, as if reminding her that she chose to be a career woman over having a family.

It was a slower episode (how could it not be), but I thought it was actually pretty good. Then again, I love introspective episodes. Don getting his life back together and taking control over some things was actually well done. Especially with him refusing to go up with the psych woman (forget her name) and then taking her advice and going to see his son on his birthday.

The Joan & Peggy conversation in the elevator was good, but I think Joan was 100% wrong. Joan didn't handle it. She just told them that they'd be shot at in Vietnam and nothing would change. Peggy actually did something about it. Peggy was pissed at the lack of respect a woman was getting in the office and had enough. Joan was pissed that Peggy actually had some power to do something.

I happened to wander through just in time for the Blankenship scene. That's so true to life that it was hysterical to me & my wife. The one-liner from the silver haired dude, about "... surrounded by the people she answered phones for" was also a spot-on summary of the business.

That was the show that I would have watched religiously, similar to moments from the first couple of episodes of Season 1.

A pretty good episode overall tonight, I thought. Matthew Weiner still manages to drop my jaw several times a season and tonight was one of those times. I really like how Sally is becoming the key focal point in the Don/Betty saga. It seems that long ago Sally chose Don over Betty but now I wonder just how far Weiner will take it to show how awful Betty is.

Sally morphing into Betty and her affection for Don was really creeping me out. And that's a task.

Wow tonight's episode has been great and it's not even half over yet.

This episode is crazy. Don on the verge of being exposed, lucky strike leaving the agency, and Lane being slapped on the side of the head with a cane by his father.

I thought there might be some posts in this thread before the episode was over - some pretty major stuff going on this evening.

Holy. Shit.

So, I've been discussing Mad Men at a few places, and this last episode, and the last shot in particular seem to have generated a divide among folks, as for what it means regarding Don's future.

I was surprised to see a number of people simply take Don's final gaze at Megan as some sort of wistful/casual/benign thing, another step on his path of enlightenment towards Don the Good Guy. On the other hand, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Don had come to question his entire being (or rather the life/being he had taken from the real Don Draper) and as everything was prepared to come crashing down, instead appeared to rebuild itself as a newer-better-stronger house of cards, his response was not to finally confront or abandon his assumed identity, but throwing himself back into it, once his bulletproof status had been re-affirmed. Likewise, to take Don's gaze on face value ignore that the entire episode had been spent showing how everything is SUPER on the surface at SCDP, but a shitstorm is definitely on the horizon.

Likewise, his postponement of a date with Faye right before the gaze seems an important image to me....if it meant nothing, there was no reason for it to even be mentioned, but for him to (somewhat coldly) dismiss Faye, so soon after both telling her his great secret and having the secret of their illicit relationship revealed (and Pete not particularly caring), says to me that her value may now be null (or at least lessened) to the new-old Don Draper. I think Don's gaze at Megan was definitely meant to hold some lust, towards something young, shiny and as-of-yet untouched by the creeping tendrils of his crappy life.

I enjoyed tonight's episode and think it really set things up for an action filled final two episodes.

We were right about Don and Megan. When Don saw Faye at his door I thought she was breaking up with him. I also thought Roger might kill himself during the scene at his home. Also, I thought Pete was told to dump his father-in-law's account. That was weeks ago (probably months in show time). How has the father-in-law not found out that SCDP dumped him?

I got the Roger foreboding feeling as well.

Not sure we need a spoiler ;)

However, Pete played hardball. Said bring in the entirety of Vicks or they'll have to dump Ponds. The father-in-law had to give all of Vicks to SDCP and the agency dumped Clearasil.

And yes, there is a super interesting couple of eps left in the season.

Not sure we need a spoiler ;)

I posted the spoiler before the west coast airing.

I always thought the "jumper" in the opening credits would be a real person. Seems like it could be Roger... what a way to end the season if so

I thought tonight's episode was a bit slow but did a good job setting things in motion for next week's season finale.

Agreed. I'm sure the finale will be great as always

- The response to the letter was great. I'm hoping Don comes out shining. I love when Don kicks serious ass at his job.

- Sometimes I just want to fucking punch betty in the face.

- Loved Don covering Pete's share. Pete may be a shitbag 90% of the time but Don owed him.

I liked that Peggy was really the only one who got what Don was doing with that letter in the Times.

The little girl who plays Sally has truly been a joy to watch. Feels like as the season goes on she just gets better and better.

The little girl who plays Sally has truly been a joy to watch. Feels like as the season goes on she just gets better and better.

Agreed...but her little boyfriend still creeps me out.

Really liked this episode.

Hoping Sally doesn't up and kill herself. Seems to be a bit young to pull that off. But them really humanizing her this season, her talk of death, the internalized anger and the emotional "final" goodbye to Don(has she seen him since?) seems to make it a possibility.

Something series defining is going to happen with her next episode.

Then again I am a dark souled individual.

You're not alone. I have a horrible sense of dread involving Sally. There's been a foreshadowing of something bad happening with Glen, and it may becoming to a head now that Betty wants to move to keep Sally and Glen apart. Don's a terrible father but Sally is her father's daughter -- something happening to Sally would hit him hard.

You know there's always a mindfreak in the Mad Men series finale ... we've already had SCDP go through the layoffs (is Bert Cooper really gone or did we see him back in the office at the end?).

As for Betty, I never cared for her even when we were supposed to. She's always seemed cold and ineffectual -- then again, maybe that's because January Jones is just an overrated actress.

I hope Glen kills Betty.

and the emotional "final" goodbye to Don(has she seen him since?) seems to make it a possibility.

Wasn't the Beatles concert after this? It wasn't onscreen, but I thought that was the episode following Sally running away from Mom.

Wasn't the Beatles concert after this? It wasn't onscreen, but I thought that was the episode following Sally running away from Mom.

Oh yeah, think you're right.

In any case, this finale was more akin to silly anticlimactic mid-season filler. Just strange.

Agree 100%. Really the first time Mad Men has truly let me down. That was terrible. The only highlight for me was the final scene with Betty. That was one of the more brilliant scenes I've seen from this show. From the comedic moment of Don pulling out the hidden bottle, to Don's, "You'll just move again," and finally to them walking their separate ways.

But that alone wasn't enough to carry what was a mediocre episode. Let alone a season finale.

And I can see plenty of uninteresting scenes with them as newly weds. Then the 6 episodes dedicated to Don and Betty cheating on each other's spouses with each other. Just don't get the direction.

I don't know. I didn't have a problem with the episode. We got one big thing (Don) and two smaller things (Peggy and Joan). We didn't see anyone die and we didn't see the company collapse like we thought we would. I was still surprised that Don's decision happened so quickly but now I like how he confided in Faye and now Faye's upset, knows Don's secret and has mafia friends she can use to get back at him. It might not have been the greatest season finale but I still enjoyed it.

Well, I didn't really need anyone to die.

But the 2 smaller things aren't worth mentioning and the "big" thing is an uninteresting cliche. Unless they totally twist things around next year, but my attention is not exactly hooked.

I thought it was brilliant actually. Don's slow change into Roger just keeps accelerating. Don thought it was ridiculous for Rodger to up and marry a secretary and here goes Don doing the same thing. And Peggy and Joan going WTF?!

I liked when Roger said "Who's She?", when told Don and Megan were getting married...

At first I was annoyed with Don's marital choice, but my wife pointed out Roger had done the same thing, and I laughed at that. Don thinks he wants a quiet typical home life, but what he really wants is a hot trophy wife. Otherwise, why did he dump the marketing pro?

Peggy was pissed at Don for dumping the marketing woman -- who she thinks of as a mentor, but who is not -- and now she will find Joan to be the mentor she needs. Joan is slowly sliding into becoming the new Ida Blankenship, about to become the subject of jokes by unbelieving new hires. That has begun to happen already, if you've noticed.

With the mention of Abe Beame in this episode, I began to think of other NY politicos of that era, in particular Nelson Rockefeller, who is Henry's ultimate boss. Since Rockefeller died in 1979, more than ten years down the road from where Mad Men is now, I don't think it will be Rocky who dies in the saddle in Mad Men. My prediction is that Henry will have a heart attack and die while boinking Betty next season. And likely Glen and Sally will hear it going on.

I also speculate that Joan's husband will be 'wounded in the war' and come home to realize that the baby looks like Roger and there is nothing he can do about it. The 'less than a man' thing will lead him to melancholia and conflict with Joan. Thus Joan her husband will both become the subject of pity and bad jokes.

I guess I was hoping for more plotline about the business in the finale, given the state of the stories over the past year. I certainly expected something more dramatic.

I also think Don gravitated towards the secretary because she had demonstrated some good mothering skills with his kids, before this episode and again in California. Sure, the hot trophy wife thing was important and all, but I doubt that this was the only driver for him. I don't think hotness would have been enough to trump the advertising woman that he was with, as he seemed pretty satisfied with that relationship.

No surprise at all with Joan carrying the kid. Fun to think that "they are even bigger".

Having just caught up on the season, I thought it was a terrible finale. Awful writing - unless they are literally trying to portray Draper as either completely insane or possibly possessing multiple personalities.

I was waiting for the whole engagement thing to be a dream sequence...even after 5 minutes or more. Stunned that it wasn't.

Truly bizzare choices.

As for Betty, I never cared for her even when we were supposed to. She's always seemed cold and ineffectual -- then again, maybe that's because January Jones is just an overrated actress.

Yeah, the character is just proving to be an unlikeable bitch. She had her moments early in the show, but they are long gone now.

I've been reading that we won't be getting our summer fix (season 5). I've been reading it could even be 2012 before we get our season due to money disputes :(

Thankfully the last episode was horrible enough to cushion the wait time.

I am so late to the party it is funny. But I just watched all 4 seasons, then watched the Matt Wiener commentaries for all four seasons, so I guess you can say I am addicted. I just read thru this discussion and wanted to comment on some things.


Man, I tell you, Sally is going to be screwed up. I know that we all saw it coming, but she's crying out for attention, and Betty is the one who is always around... poor girl!

I joked with my wife while watching season two that Sally was going to end up on a pole. :) I am not as sure anymore. Bad parenting doesn't always equal a completely broken grown-up, and I think Sally is showing she may be smart enough and strong enough to over-come Betty.

Yeah, the thing about Pete is that while he's a dick, he seems to be more and more 'right' about things. He's getting big accounts and he was right that dealing with the Japanese is the smart thing to do.

Spot on. The theme of Pete this season is that he has become the "grown up" in this company of childish egos. Not that he still isn't a egotist himself, or doesn't get petty at times. Still, he has a better business sense than most of the others (really his wife has an even better business sense than he does). Pete, though, gives up more, takes more risks, and ends up doing things for the betterment of the company more than anyone else. He may bitch about it, but he does it. Plus, after the au pair incident, is there a stronger marriage in the show? Pete grew up, and is now the father of this mess.

Yeah, it wasn't so much about trying to sabotage Pete because he doesn't want Pete specifically to succeed. He doesn't want the company to get to a point where it can exist without Lucky Strike. Which I think was Pete's point.

This. Pete was wrong in reading his motivation (Pete never served, and really doesn't believe that Rodger really just can't get over WW2.) It is understandable that Pete jumped to that conclusion, though I really don't think that was what was moving Rodger. I knew men who fought in the Pacific that still thought like Rodger did to their dying day.

That was Pete's point, but the way I saw it Lucky Strike had nothing to do with Roger's motivations. He obviously still maintains a (somewhat understandable) hatred against the Japanese for the hardships he and his friends endured during World War II. I never saw Lucky Strike as the reason for Roger's sabotage efforts. That's what Pete saw, but it's not what I saw, which I think is part of the reason I still see Pete as somewhat petty.

And it certainly speaks to the quality of both the acting and the writing of the show that people can watch the same scene and see entirely different things going on "behind the scenes."

Basically, look at the above comment. Pete is just the right age that he barely remembers WW2, and missed Korea because he was too young. He just thinks Rodger has another motivation than he actually did.

I got this same vibe and i'm kind of hoping they don't go there. There's enough material in seeing a girl come of age sexually in that era without adding on the melodrama of grandpa diddling her.

I can promise you that is not the case. I think it is interesting/sad that people would even go there and think Sally's/Eugene's relationship was creepy. The whole story there, including how Gene died, came straight from Weiner's life. And I also related to it (my grandmother moved in with us after her stroke, and died soon after). Gene was a prick, but he was actually just relating to Sally more than Bobby much like he did with Betty over her brother. Daddy's little girl/Grandpaw's little girl. Not sexual at all.

OK, so a couple of questions:
1.) Thoughts on Anna with the suitcase? Was there something there I was missing?
2.) Similarly, was there some symbolism with the mouse? I thought it was going to come back around to Samsonite, but that did not materialize
3.) Did Don's campaign suck? Peggy was asking him same questions Don asked and Don more or less bullied her at the end ... which is his right as the boss, but was the campaign a loser?

Anna and the suitcase was a tie to Samsonite. It was showing that when creative people have a problem it totally pervades in the whole lives while they work on it. No doubt there was symbolism there (checking on Don as she moved on to eternity), but Samsonite played into it. And yeah, Don's idea had problems.

So, I've been discussing Mad Men at a few places, and this last episode, and the last shot in particular seem to have generated a divide among folks, as for what it means regarding Don's future.

I was surprised to see a number of people simply take Don's final gaze at Megan as some sort of wistful/casual/benign thing, another step on his path of enlightenment towards Don the Good Guy. On the other hand, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Don had come to question his entire being (or rather the life/being he had taken from the real Don Draper) and as everything was prepared to come crashing down, instead appeared to rebuild itself as a newer-better-stronger house of cards, his response was not to finally confront or abandon his assumed identity, but throwing himself back into it, once his bulletproof status had been re-affirmed. Likewise, to take Don's gaze on face value ignore that the entire episode had been spent showing how everything is SUPER on the surface at SCDP, but a shitstorm is definitely on the horizon.

Likewise, his postponement of a date with Faye right before the gaze seems an important image to me....if it meant nothing, there was no reason for it to even be mentioned, but for him to (somewhat coldly) dismiss Faye, so soon after both telling her his great secret and having the secret of their illicit relationship revealed (and Pete not particularly caring), says to me that her value may now be null (or at least lessened) to the new-old Don Draper. I think Don's gaze at Megan was definitely meant to hold some lust, towards something young, shiny and as-of-yet untouched by the creeping tendrils of his crappy life.

You caught it right on. Don really needed Faye when he was in trouble, but he's revealing the truth to her which should have made them closer, pretty much destroyed the chance that relationship was going to work. The way Weiner described it was that all of that work he was doing to be a "new man" was short-circuited with the trauma of this and the Lucky Strike pull-out. That left Faye as the odd-man out.

I always thought the "jumper" in the opening credits would be a real person. Seems like it could be Roger... what a way to end the season if so

Actually, it was supposed to be Harry Crane at the end of the first season, but they liked the actor too much to kill him. :)

You're not alone. I have a horrible sense of dread involving Sally. There's been a foreshadowing of something bad happening with Glen, and it may becoming to a head now that Betty wants to move to keep Sally and Glen apart. Don's a terrible father but Sally is her father's daughter -- something happening to Sally would hit him hard.

You know there's always a mindfreak in the Mad Men series finale ... we've already had SCDP go through the layoffs (is Bert Cooper really gone or did we see him back in the office at the end?).

As for Betty, I never cared for her even when we were supposed to. She's always seemed cold and ineffectual -- then again, maybe that's because January Jones is just an overrated actress.

This is one of those things that disturbs Weiner. Glenn is not supposed to be "creppy" and his and Sally's relationship is not a unhealthy one at all. The creepy came from Betty's relationship with him, not Glenn's reaction to it. Betty was/is a child and treated him as an equal. And now, Betty's treating him like a former boyfriend and is jealous of him and Sally. But Glenn just reaches out to Sally because they both are children of divorce. He is sort of mentoring her, and trying to help her in a way that a kid of his age could (like breaking into her house to vandalize it. It was wrong, but his motive was actually sweet). He and Sally are supposed to be a kid version of Peggy and Don. Not some kind of stalker-creepy sexual thing.

I guess I was hoping for more plotline about the business in the finale, given the state of the stories over the past year. I certainly expected something more dramatic.

I also think Don gravitated towards the secretary because she had demonstrated some good mothering skills with his kids, before this episode and again in California. Sure, the hot trophy wife thing was important and all, but I doubt that this was the only driver for him. I don't think hotness would have been enough to trump the advertising woman that he was with, as he seemed pretty satisfied with that relationship.

No surprise at all with Joan carrying the kid. Fun to think that "they are even bigger".

The Joan thing was more predictable than this show usually is. Then again, I knew Peggy was pregnant in the first season, and am surprised that the writers really thought they fooled people. :)

As for the Faye versus Megan: I was so upset that Don proposed. I was also expecting that it was a dream and that Don would wake up (or she would). But in the end, it shouldn't have been such a shock. Remember Faye told him the first episode of the season that he wouldn't remain single for more than year? Men at this time and in this business just didn't. And marrying the secretary was a cliche that came from truth. They almost always did.

Faye was not going to work out. It was over when he revealed himself to her, and he was relieved in a way when she first refused to help him with a business contact. Then, he slept with Megan. That fact that she was so mature in how she handled it, made her more attractive to him. She was still buzzing on his mind when he went back to Faye. Then the fates stepped in (and it was Betty's petty childishness that actually got them together is just awesome).

I was so mad about how this worked out till I had time to let it simmer on my mind. Then by the time I watched the commentaries, I saw it like the writers saw it (btw, this was the plan from the first episode, and Matt tried to back out a number of times, and the other writers kept him on task).

Like I stated above, Don's growth was halted by the trauma of losing Lucky Strike and his near miss at being revealed. Faye was becoming not what he needed at that point in his mind (she's bugging about handling his problem while all his energy was being spent on saving his business might have been right, but not want he could deal with at that time). Add to the fact that she was awkward at best, down right bad at worst with his kids made her a non-starter as a potential wife. He wanted at that point what his accountant suggested he needed ("Don't you want to come home to a steak in the pan?"). Faye was not going to be that for Don.

Enter Megan. She is young, but not too young (like the little blonde debutant that he dated, but was never really serious about). She was just an angel with his kids (I think the final nail in the proposal coffin was how she reacted to the kids spilling that milkshake. The look of shock at Don's and the kid's faces was priceless). And she didn't know and just really didn't care what Don had done before. If Don were to tell her, imho, I think her response would be almost just like Cooper's was in the first season. "Who you are is what room you are in." That was the past, I know and love the man you are now, would be her reaction.

As shocking, crazy, impulsive that engagment was, the final line is it is totally believable. And not really in the end as terrible a decision as you would think. If you made a list of Faye's and Megan's benefits/negatives, Megan wins. And that she is a young hotty doesn't hurt. But I think that is short-selling the real reason it happened. It helped, but was far from the only cause.

Where does that leave the characters going in to what will be a two year time jump? Megan has replaced Peggy in Don's life. Remember, her dream is to be a copy-writer. Peggy also wasn't the only one that saw what Don did with the letter, Megan did as well. Plus, she is going to be able to fulfill Don's needs in ways Peggy never could. She will be working as a writer by the time we come back. Don was setting that up with the "she looks up to you" thing. How will Peggy handle the loss of Don and dealing with her "rival" (business wise)? Where will the company be without Lucky Strike? (struggling but surviving would be my guess, even two years later). Will Betty's marriage survive? (That one I'm not sure of, but I;d be just as happy if she drops off a cliff). And Joan is going have a toddler. Where is her husband, and how's Rodger going to take it? Lots of interesting questions as we move into the mid-60's (race relations, Bobby and MLK assassinations, Vietnam escalation all coming).

I've been reading that we won't be getting our summer fix (season 5). I've been reading it could even be 2012 before we get our season due to money disputes :(

And you read right. But thank God, we are just looking at a month from now. :)

REMINDER

Will be interesting to see what they came come up with to salvage the lame ending from last season.

can't wait!

Lets do this!

I had to find AMC on AT&T U-verse just now ... was getting a little panicked for a sec until looking up the online channel guide and finding it was in some deserted island of channels.

so...
she's using him?
great episode. just bummed where it's headed. also, open your blouse

Good episode but christ they actually managed to find Don a wife that is a worse actress than January Jones. Brutal.

I really enjoyed it. I'm just happy to have it back, really. One of the funnier episodes I've seen in awhile. They did a pretty good job of setting the foundation of some storylines. It'd been so long that I am kinda glad that they didn't come out swinging (not that Mad Men ever really comes out with a bang)

I'm slightly leery of which direction some of the plots will go, though. I'm not sure how I feel about this Don "I just don't really care anymore" Draper. While I thought the party was amazing, and the ZoobiZu (or whatever the hell it was) was amazing, I could see myself growing tired of the new wife FAST. Roger was great. Pete was back to his whiny self, but he is right this time.

Need more Sally Draper.

I'm loving the evolution of Pete Campbell.

I'm loving the evolution of Pete Campbell.

Yep, I thought he dominated the episodes.

So what the heck is the Brit doing? He seemed really incompetent without Joan around to help with the books, and that seemed like a fairly significant departure in his character.

Don being less invested in his work seems like a strange twist as well. That was the part of him that the viewer could unabashedly like; it was his personal life that inspired all the (to varying degrees) misgivings.

I wonder if Roger will actually invest time into getting business at some point, rather than pretty much everything but picking up the phone and calling people.

4.4m for the premiere (both airings combined) up 21% over last season premiere, apparently absence did indeed make the heart grow fonder.

That said, still slightly less than half the audience that The Walking Dead drew the week before.

Funny thing is that Mad Men put AMC on the map for original programming, yet the show has consistently been clobbered by other shows on the network. And it's bizarre because it seems like everyone I know watches the show.

As for the premiere, I thought it was bloated. This could have been edited down to a tight, fast-paced one-hour episode rather than a slow, bloated two-hour show.

Weiner obviously has planted the seeds for a lot of different plots, so let's see if anything becomes of them.

Funny thing is that Mad Men put AMC on the map for original programming, yet the show has consistently been clobbered by other shows on the network. And it's bizarre because it seems like everyone I know watches the show.

As I chuckled at last year, it's referred to in some circles as the best show to never reach a 1.0 rating ;) This should be around a 1.25 A18-49, for the 1.6m watching the actual premiere, i.e. not including the repeat

The audience has actually been pretty narrow from the beginning. The qualitative ratings are quite good, the show is a hit with high income HH but beyond that it has scuffled in the mainstream. It's somewhere between being a niche show and a boutique show

Looking at last week's Sunday cable finals (haven't seen this week's yet), not only does it pale in comparison to TWD but also had a smaller total audience than Talking Dead and Discovery's Frozen Planet.

http://i.imgur.com/clJ4u.gif

Yep, I thought he dominated the episodes.

So what the heck is the Brit doing? He seemed really incompetent without Joan around to help with the books, and that seemed like a fairly significant departure in his character.

Don being less invested in his work seems like a strange twist as well. That was the part of him that the viewer could unabashedly like; it was his personal life that inspired all the (to varying degrees) misgivings.

I wonder if Roger will actually invest time into getting business at some point, rather than pretty much everything but picking up the phone and calling people.

Pete is a lot of fun. I'm glad to see the show returning to what was promised in the very first episode with Pete - a worthy opponent who lacks social understanding. He doesn't have to be a caricature, as he's sometimes been in the past.

Every season has focused on a different side of Don. This side may be the most jarring image. He has no interest in work because he's completely involved with Megan. We've never seen him in love before. He always has a hand on her - subtle touches like him guiding her through a room with a hand on her back.

This show has been accused of misogyny in the past, and I think it's misguided. Megan realized how her dancing affected how people relate to her and Don. Lane realized how his pursuing photo-Delores was despicable. Roger, of course, remains obtuse and about as offensive as humanly possible. It's a very pro-feminist look at a time when relations between the sexes were different.

I think the actress playing Megan is doing a good job. This is a very complex character. She hasn't yet revealed her motivations to anyone, so we're going to see her purposefully a bit wooden at times.

Pete was back to his whiny self, but he is right this time.

What do you mean "this time"? I think its slowly but surely established that Pete, while a boar, is the one who is vindicated.

I thought it was a solid episode. I kind of like the dynamic of Don and Megan and how it makes Don care less about work and how one deals with a relationship between an older man and younger woman. Roger and Jane have a few years on them (and a larger age difference) and you can see how he's completely tired of Jane (and what an awesome prank Pete played on Roger with the Staten Island Coca-Cola meeting penciled in).

What do you mean "this time"? I think its slowly but surely established that Pete, while a boar, is the one who is vindicated.


I was mainly referring to early in the show. The past season or so, while still not the most charming person, he has started to tone down the childish behavior. Perhaps that is because of him receiving the respect that he felt he always deserved, or the new family life, I don't know.

But early in the show, season one especially, Pete always came across as childish. He always seemed entitled and this was especially apparent due to his privileged upbringing. He always seemed like he lacked certain social skills. He was immature.

Perhaps whiny was poor choice of word, perhaps even the wrong word. His immaturity appeared to be coming back out, and his entitlement, but for me it appeared that his resentment is understood this time around. His lack of tact is apparent with Roger, but then again, he is only doing what Roger would do.

Regardless of how he was acting, he's been the most right about the future of the business since the beginning (seemingly).

It's been so long since this has been on that I'd completely forgotten Allison Brie of Community plays Pete's wife. Hope she gets her black lingerie moment.

Unfortunately I think she's going to continue to look slovenly so Pete's eye starts wandering again.

Speaking of Pete, while he may be right, his overconfidence is going to get smacked down.

Also when Roger told Peggy "Forget everything I told you, that's the last guy I hired", that it may have been somewhat foreshadowing?

Ep 2 ratings down 17% A18-49 (from 1.2 to 1.0), Adults down pretty much the same, to 2.9m from 3.5m

I am late getting started here, we got AMC in HD in the last few months, my Mad Men season pass was on the non HD channel, so I waited until I could get an HD recording to watch.

The second hour of the premier was one of the funniest hours of Mad Men ever I do believe. Harry in Roger's office discussing Pete taking over Harry's office was classic from multiple angles. Harry: Ok, but you're gonna owe me. Roger: No I won't! I just gave you a bunch of money! this was a transaction.

I really like Megan and am curious to see what they do with her and with the relationship with Don this year. Though after last night I have a bad feeling Betty will be heavily involved and really who wants that?

The hitfix reviewer said it much nicer than I can:


"Mad Men" tends to move at a very measured, leisurely pace, but most of the time, I love that. I could have taken a good five more minutes of Don and Harry in Don's car after the Rolling Stones debacle, with Harry desperate to avoid going home, for instance. About the only time I actually become impatient with the pace is when we're spending as much time with Betty as we did tonight.


Also, Sally doesn't get a ton of screen time but it seems like she really shines any time she has something to do. One of the better kids on a TV show in my memory.

Also, Sally doesn't get a ton of screen time but it seems like she really shines any time she has something to do. One of the better kids on a TV show in my memory.


Agreed. She is really good. And I was disappointed that Betty didn't have cancer. Maybe she could get hit by a truck soon?

Just when I think I might finally be able to develop some sympathy for Betty, I am reminded of why I detest her so much. Yes, please, have her get hit by a truck...

So....you're done with your sundae, then?

It was actually the comment about the obese mother that reminded me why I detest Betty so...

I've seen lots of internet discussion about Don & Megan, and will it last, and when Don will fuck things up, but I think this one is going to go in a different direction. I think Megan is going to tire of Don and leave him, for once. To me, Megan seems to be taking on the shape of the first generation of the independent, 'enlightened' '60s woman, and although he's flirted with similar types he's still usually maintained the 'alpha' position in those relationships. Certainly Betty took a stand towards Don and sought out her own path, but not until Don's behavior forced her hand, and the situation to which she ran is hardly remarkable for her independence.

Megan has taken every opportunity to shrug off Don's dominance in the relationship, and perhaps most importantly, she's not afraid of him. In the 'party' episode, every woman on the cast took an opportunity to show their deference to Don, telling Megan in hushed tones that Don doesn't like parties or surprises, or worriedly wondering how he took such embarrassment, but Megan didn't care...or more to the point, she cared about HER feelings in the aftermath, rather than Don's, and she's consistently shown that she places herself on the same plane as Don, as far as their relationship is concerned. She's unwilling to take on Don's morose response to Betty's possible cancer, and won't allow him to settle into the funk he tries on immediately. "Aww, nobody loves Dick Whitman!" she says as she playfully mocks Don's most dear secret, with a levity that suggests he's not the most important person in the world, or even her life.

As Megan and the world surrounding them begin to outgrow the trappings of Don and his generation, I think he's going to be left behind, for once.

Not sure how you guys are loving this.

I've found the first 3 hours of this season to be incredible boring. The more time the spend outside of the agency, the worse it becomes imo.

I haven't been counting the minutes or anything, but I'd be surprised if they actually were outside of the agency that much more than any season. Are you missing more of the advertising details specifically? I could see that, as the time they seem to have been devoting more time to the politics of the workplace, rather than the work itself.

Personally I love the exploration of the politics of the workplace. It tends to accomplish a similar goal of exploring who these individuals are underneath just as well as how they work through an advertizing job (I have heard a lot of folk lately say that Mad Men is a triumph of style over substance, and I'm sure that has to do with just focusing on advertizing details and nothing much happening - but slow moving shows can have a lot going on underneath).

Every season I expect the "jumper" from opening credits to actually happen.

The last episode may have given a clue when Roger said while looking out the window with the new guy: "we both want to throw something out this window."

-- Henry's mother is terrifying, holy crap. Poor Sally Draper.

-- Hooray Joan, fuck you Joan's rapey husband.

-- Both of the big scenes with Peggy were brilliant imo, and as is often the case, Peggy is heavily featured in my favorite parts of the show. Getting the money out of Roger and giddily counting it once she was alone was a wonderful scene, and the awkwardness of her conversation with Dawn in her apartment about how difficult it is to be a woman followed by the instinctual/almost involuntary look at the purse, so great.

Yeah, you really wonder how in the world Sally is ever going to be normal. Her adult influences appear to be setting her on the path to be just like Don, always toeing the line between genius and psychopath.

Speaking of blurring the line toward psychopath, I sure hope that was a fever dream and Megan didn't simply cover for Don. There is something "likable" about Don for all his horrendous faults because he has redeeming qualities. Regardless, it shows a dark side of Don.

The Peggy scenes were brilliant. I hope there is a gif file somewhere of Peggy counting Roger's money.

I want to know more about Ginsberg.

I'm assuming (correctly?) that he is gay, based on the end of his last episode. I liked the way he screwed things up after brilliantly sealing the deal for the footwear.

I liked the hallucination with Don choking out Andrea. I thought it was real at first, and then thought maybe it was Megan, but he thought it was Andrea.

I also agree with everything Radii said above. Henry's mother scares the shit out of me. Sally's going to be a messed up girl. I see a teenage pregnancy in her future.

Seems like everyone is beating up on Roger now, I suppose he's had it coming for a long time. Peggy's interaction with him was excellent, as was her scene with Dawn.

Not sure how you guys are loving this.

I've found the first 3 hours of this season to be incredible boring. The more time the spend outside of the agency, the worse it becomes imo.
the past couple seasons have been a little disappointing. it's gotten a little too soapy for me. but it's part of the problem of writing for a series. you end up blowing your wad early because you never know when the end is.

that said, i like matt weiner and there are still plenty of redeeming moments.

Speaking of blurring the line toward psychopath, I sure hope that was a fever dream and Megan didn't simply cover for Don. There is something "likable" about Don for all his horrendous faults because he has redeeming qualities. Regardless, it shows a dark side of Don.

More hitfix review and less original thought by me here... Sepinwall's review was talking about Don's internal struggle between *wanting* to be faithful to Megan but knowing that he is broken in many major ways and is either not capable of not cheating on her long term or at the very least is afraid of what he might do in the future.

Makes as much sense to me as anything.

The Peggy scenes were brilliant. I hope there is a gif file somewhere of Peggy counting Roger's money.

http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/PEGGY-COUNTING-MONEY.gif


Sally's going to be a messed up girl. I see a teenage pregnancy in her future.

Creepy Glen makes a triumphant return in the final season to knock her up. *shudders*

Sally has too much power to end up knocked up. I think the end for her is much darker. There is simply too much foreshadowing with her either getting killed or doing the killing. It would be a cop out at this point for Weiner to have a happy ending for Sally, even though that's what we all want.

I don't know, I think Don is capable of cheating on Megan but he's trying to be something he isn't. He's trying to be a good husband, but his work is suffering and I think the dream is his mind telling him that being something he isn't is eventually going to lead to a snap.

I feel like I'm missing the significance of the purse and the awkwardness after that shot. Maybe I'm over analyzing? Did I glaze over an earlier scene that was setting it up?

When Peggy pauses (because there is $400 in the purse and she's leaving it in front of a stranger), there is also the thought that "what if Dawn thinks I'm being a racist". That's why it was awkward.

I did like the Ep, but I don't think anything sinister is going to happen to Sally. I think the point of the show is that we all have good and we all have bad (and we all, apparently, have parts of our past we want to strangle to death).

Got it. Thanks.

Richard Speck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Speck)

Richard Speck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Speck)


Yeah, looked that up while watching. That was some creepy crap.

I really love the way Mad Men take a fact from the era -- in this case how the ninth nurse hid under a bed -- and place it in many scenes. Dawn and Peggy sit in a room with a couch just like where the nurses were killed; Don shoves the illusion body under his bed; Sally winds up hiding under the couch Henry's mother is sitting on.

And then the Mystery Date game ad on the TV for the episode title rounding it all off.

Missed the last couple episodes so I just caught up to the DVR.

Nothing to really add. Regarding the start of the show being slow, I don't know. Mad Men has never been really episodic show, and while it has had more intense season starts, I think we may be in store for a good one. I found the third episode (second week) to be a little weak, but it still had its moments. But then I found the latest episode to be absolutely brilliant, and while it may not have been The Suitcase level, it was not far behind it.

I really feel like this season could get pretty crazy, though. As long as it stays plausible and doesn't just start doing straight bullshit, I'm ready.

The Emasculation of Pete Campbell.

Brilliant.

Guh. Was busy and DVR'ed. Gotta get up early but a buddy texted me saying it is far and away the best episode of the season and one of his favorites period.

Who needs sleep.

dola -

I seriously stood up out my seat for the fight scene. That was incredible.

- Has Don truly turned the page? Or is he always going to be broken and the inevitable fall will happen.

- Ken Consgrove is a awesome.

- Pete's the jumper from the credits. You heard it here first. (ok, not really. I'm just covering my bases so I can take credit. But this is probably an absurd assertion)

dola -

I seriously stood up out my seat for the fight scene. That was incredible.

You just knew Pete was gonna get his ass kicked.

By far one of my favorite eps of the show. It was efficiently ruthless.

I seriously stood up out my seat for the fight scene. That was incredible.

I was laughing loudly from the moments the phrase "chewing gum on his pubis" was uttered until the end of the fight.


- Has Don truly turned the page? Or is he always going to be broken and the inevitable fall will happen.

I assume this is an ongoing struggle for the remainder of the series.


- Ken Consgrove is a awesome.


dear god yes, moar!



Brilliant from start to finish, wonderfully building up from the beginning of the episode to the fight.

Loved seeing Pete get his ass kicked.

That was one of the best episodes of the series. It was very well written. I especially liked Ken's story at the end and how it described Pete. Pete was an ass for most of the episode like he always is, but I felt sorry for him at the end when he says, "I have nothing." John Slattery, who plays Roger, directed the episode and it was well done all around.

Just saw it and loved it. The fight was pure awesome, but so was Don's maturation. It was great to see him realize who he really wanted to be, but I hope he doesn't lapse (and then the message of the series becomes people don't change). I really liked Ken continuing his love even after Roger gives him a veiled threat.

It is amazing how much Pete feels he's died inside by his move to suburbia. The scene where he's asking the hooker if she can do it for him and just says "Nope" when she does the welcome home and the its my first time personas & then the "Ok" when she does the you are my king was utterly hilarious. Interestingly Trudy is the "welcome home" and the girl in the driver's ed class seemed to be the "its my 1st time" types.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/248/cannot_be_unseen.jpg

Stunned that I haven't been able to find this little meme with the wide eyed Sally Draper face yet on the interwebs. Poor poor Sally. Go get 'em tiger indeed.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_Iw0euc4qDk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

PIZZA HOUSE


also, Rory Gilmore and Mr Belding! I've really liked this season so far. I'd ask for a spinoff entitled "The Misadventures of Pete Campbell" but I don't think you could carry a show with such a douchebag as lead. His activities this season have been hilarious though.

Also, after seeing Don Draper near his worst with his wife a couple weeks ago, it was nice to see Good Guy Don tonight supporting her desire to throw herself back into acting.

The cast of Mad Men are on the most recent episode of Inside the Actors Studio. Its re-airing on Bravo Saturday at 8am for anyone that is interested.

After a bit of a slip in quality last week (coincidence that it was a Betty episode and not as good as the others? I think not), Mad Men was on fire once again tonight. Something really bad is going to go down with Lane in the finale I assume. The story with Don and Joan was simply amazing, Alan Sepinwall's review at hitfix.com suggested:


Matt Weiner has been incredibly stingy with Don/Joan scenes — though they've interacted plenty of times, this episode and "Guy Walks Into an Advertising Agency" are the only ones I can think of where a significant amount of time is devoted to just letting them talk to each other about their lives — and it feels like he does so because the chemistry between Jon Hamm and Christina Hendricks is so explosive that if he did it more regularly, we wouldn't care about any other relationship on the show.

Sounds about right to me, if they put Don and Joan together too often no one would give a shit about anything else that happened on the show.

Joan's little hissyfit after getting served was outstanding... "OH there's an airplane here to see you!"

The return of ultimate douche Paul Kinsey was awesomely absurd, and his hippy friend seducing Harry in his office was oustanding... both before ("I burn for you")... and after ("I'm trading the only thing I have" ... "But you just gave it away for free" ... *SLAP*)


Lastly, Don's little speech at the end of the episode was great, I was starting to feel like the rest of the series would just push Don further and further out of touch as the 60s roll on, and that may still be the case, but it was nice at least for a moment to see Don "on", even if its just internally. Maybe they can actually win Jaguar instead of everything going to shit at the end of the season?

Just caught up through last week and I loved the episode. Have to agree with Radii about the fun with Paul Kinsey. Him writing a Star Trek episode on spec and saying "Even Krishna doesn't love me" were the highlights for me.

We're up to Christmas of 1966, so the Big Events--the assassinations, the war protests and the inner city rioting--are still a year away. I'm hoping they will do a little with Joe Namath, who was big in TV ads around this time, even though the SB was 1969.

What an episode.

It was a great episode, one of my favorites.


I will be interested in how the show uses Peggy's move for the rest of the season. I wonder how much we will see her going forward. I actually thought she was going to fall down the elevator shaft at the end of the episode.

A fantastic episode. I was so sad during the big conversation scene at the end.

It was a great episode, one of my favorites.


I will be interested in how the show uses Peggy's move for the rest of the season. I wonder how much we will see her going forward. I actually thought she was going to fall down the elevator shaft at the end of the episode.


So was I.

I just can't imagine the show with out her. What the heck is going to happen?

I'm hesitant to buy the ending whole cloth, if only because I can't imagine that they can/would want to introduce another entire workplace's worth of cast, and I surely can't imagine Peggy being pushed off to the side.

alright, when meagan climbs on don in his office can someone tell me what she said? because what i thought i heard can't possibly be right. something like, ' i wanna go to the audition with...'

Confidence. You pervert.

That was a great episode but it was horrible to watch. I can't believe Joan did what she did and I can't believe Peggy did what she did and it seems like it will need to be a very different show going forward b/c of both things. Does Ginsburg become a huge focal point of the show now the way Peggy was for a time earlier? Will there ever be a scene with Joan again than isn't awful and awkward to watch? Ugh.

What Joan did was horrible to watch. I loved how they reshowed the evening from Joan's point of view while Don was pitching to Jaguar. Peggy moving is a huge change of direction for the show, but she did need to do it.

I have never seen my wife get as visibly angry from a tv show as when Pete smirked after leaving Joan's office. great stuff.

It is amazing to watch don get slowly neutered over the course of the season.

Going forward, I'm certain we'll see plenty of Peggy--perhaps a here-to-fore unthinkable merger with the firm of the guy who played the cocksucker on Desperate Housewives. Remember, companies die while people survive and move on.

Lane's embezzlement should be a crescendo ending to this season, has any announcement appeared about next season, like the stars signing?

As to Joan, as someone who started working in the early 70's, I can say with certainty that what she did was not unusual back then. And such women were treated with a mix of awe and respect--not smirks-- when we young 'uns finally understood what they'd done. Lots of Joan-Roger relationships grew into the woman having quite a bit of institutional power right up until she retired.

"The senior lacrosse guys like to pee in my locker" ~Glen the superpimp

Sigh. Poor Lane. I can hardly say I'm surprised, as the show has been foreshadowing someone's suicide since the first episode, and Lane's been digging himself an odd little hole for quite a long time as well, but it was still sad to see him unravel. No Peggy this week after last week's big ending, or even a mention of her name, and she didn't show up in the previews for next week either....she can't just disappear into some Kinseyan void, can she?

Jesus. You knew it was coming the whole time but still the final minutes of that episode were very powerful and emotional. Two weeks in a row of absolutely brilliant and utterly heartbreaking television.

Sigh. Poor Lane. I can hardly say I'm surprised, as the show has been foreshadowing someone's suicide since the first episode, and Lane's been digging himself an odd little hole for quite a long time as well, but it was still sad to see him unravel. No Peggy this week after last week's big ending, or even a mention of her name, and she didn't show up in the previews for next week either....she can't just disappear into some Kinseyan void, can she?
i wonder how much of it is creative and how much of it is actors contracts.

This season has been surprising well done, with tons of very enjoyable dialogue.

And I'm happy Lane's dead, he's the only character on the show I really didn't like.

All I had to say about that epsode was Holy Shit!

& I really liked Lane myself. He was a good counterpoint to the other partners and his beating up Pete was great stuff!

i wonder how much of it is creative and how much of it is actors contracts.

Wasn't the show widely rumored to need to cut a bunch of roles? Like I have barely been watching, but it would not be surprising to never see Peggy again and this move is in the same vein.

yep. coming off the critical success of their original programming the dolans, in their infinite wisdom, canned the execs that greenlit all that stuff and slashed the budgets of their most popular shows. in his early interviews you can sense matt weiners frustration which was written into the show during the menken's pitch.

'you have to lose the customers you have to get the customers you want.'

it's why the walking dead spent a year at a farmhouse. it's why instead of throwing money at original dramas you get csi miami and shitty reality shows like comic book men and the pitch (read:cheap)

that said, weiner just dropped 650k on a pretty inconsequential beatles song so who knows what the fuck.

I'd be real upset if Peggy was out. She hasn't done much, but is still one of my favorite characters. There's so much they could do with her, barely scraping the surface.

yep. coming off the critical success of their original programming the dolans, in their infinite wisdom, canned the execs that greenlit all that stuff and slashed the budgets of their most popular shows. in his early interviews you can sense matt weiners frustration which was written into the show during the menken's pitch.

'you have to lose the customers you have to get the customers you want.'

it's why the walking dead spent a year at a farmhouse. it's why instead of throwing money at original dramas you get csi miami and shitty reality shows like comic book men and the pitch (read:cheap)

that said, weiner just dropped 650k on a pretty inconsequential beatles song so who knows what the fuck.

It's about the ratings. AMC, as we know, isn't a charity and Mad Men is notorious for its horrible ratings. However, Mad Men is a loss leader (critical success and all that), but hardly anyone watches.

I'd be real upset if Peggy was out. She hasn't done much, but is still one of my favorite characters. There's so much they could do with her, barely scraping the surface.


It would be surprising, since she was one of the "cores" of the show (Peggy, Don, Rodger, Joan, Pete and Betty *ugh*). But then you have to consider the actress in question. Elisabeth Moss has said many times she had no intention of joining another television series when she was cast on Mad Men. She also quit West Wing after a few seasons, right at the time they started really focusing on her character. I take it she really doesn't like doing television, and this might be her out. If the rumors are true that AMC is twisting Weiner's thumbs to cut staff and costs, then she might have been a willing sacrifice. I'd hate to see her go (and it might be that they are setting up for her to be a regular constant rival to Don next season), but it is a strong possibility that we will not see much of Peggy going forward (if at all).

It's about the ratings. AMC, as we know, isn't a charity and Mad Men is notorious for its horrible ratings. However, Mad Men is a loss leader (critical success and all that), but hardly anyone watches.
oh i understand that. but being a beacon in the fog of horrible tv is a reputation you can build on.

It's about the ratings. AMC, as we know, isn't a charity and Mad Men is notorious for its horrible ratings. However, Mad Men is a loss leader (critical success and all that), but hardly anyone watches.

Mad Men to me is like the anti First Take or whatever shows Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith appear on: everyone I know watches it.

oh i understand that. but being a beacon in the fog of horrible tv is a reputation you can build on.

Well that was the idea, but I think it hasn't panned out how AMC wanted it to. AMC gained a good rep with Mad Men and Breaking Bad, but that hasn't translated into good ratings all around (with the exception of Walking Dead - but that's mostly more because of ZOMBIES!!!).

Last week Mad Men 10p (not last night, haven't seen those numbers yet)
0.6 A18-49 .... 2.067m total audience

Sponge Bob Square Pants 11a
0.6 A18-49 ... 2.434m total audience

The point here isn't the total audience, it's that Sponge Bob re-runs put up the same A18-49 number

Then again, for all intents & purposes so did a 5pm Sun re-run of Pawn Stars (same A18-49, margin of error difference in total audience)

if arrested development is coming back there has to be a value in niche.

Is the season over yet? Can I start watching?

I stopped watching about seven episodes ago. I realized that I need to be able to watch all of Mad Men in one day to be satisfied.

if arrested development is coming back there has to be a value in niche.

Yes, but through Netflix - as a loss leader to drum up the idea that Netflix is doing original programming.

Niche can work, but it's very limited. Usually dedicated to being a loss leader (see: Battlestar Galactica, which lost SyFy a good deal of money actually).

ah, i see now. after season 3 amc said they could only afford 2.5 mil per episode. the production company said they couldn't produce a show for that. lions gate then bought the production co. and now sell the show to amc at a loss but make it up in dvd/itunes/netflix/syndication

weiner has a 3 year 30 mil contract. the actors make shit. i would hope they get syndication money.

weird business. tv makes nothing. but you need the exposure to sell everything else.

Is the season over yet? Can I start watching?

I stopped watching about seven episodes ago. I realized that I need to be able to watch all of Mad Men in one day to be satisfied.

This was the next to last episode last night.

Jesus. You knew it was coming the whole time but still the final minutes of that episode were very powerful and emotional. Two weeks in a row of absolutely brilliant and utterly heartbreaking television.

This episode was fantastic. Great acting and writing.

This is one of the shows that truly make me scratch my head at the ratings and deeply question the scientific value of Nielsen's research.

Virtually everyone I know watches Mad Men, and the show appears on my social networks more than any other program other than perhaps Community, another apparently audience-challenged show.

I know Mad Men adds a lot of time-shifted viewers as well, which advertisers don't care about. But this is a show where I truly question the numbers.

That said, if you look at the numbers Mad Men isn't that far off from the bottom-of-the-barrel broadcast network numbers -- except I'll bet that the average household income of a Mad Men viewer is a hell of a lot higher than Parks & Rec.

This is one of the shows that truly make me scratch my head at the ratings and deeply question the scientific value of Nielsen's research. Virtually everyone I know watches Mad Men, and the show appears on my social networks more than any other program other than perhaps Community, another apparently audience-challenged show.


Selection bias ... but you know that.

With the exception of my wife not a single mention of MM on my FB (300ish friends) all season. And Community registers a lifetime achievement award for having never drawn a mention from anyone I know on my social networks.
Even Benny Mardones has been mentioned at least once.

Meanwhile I see more than a dozen Idol posts a week, up to a dozen Walking Dead posts (nearly all from women oddly enough), at least a half dozen from every "talent" (and I use the word loosely) reality show on air, etc, etc.

Like I said, selection bias at work.

It was somewhat humorous that The Client List was pulling very similar ratings. Can't imagine a more diverse group of audiences.

It was somewhat humorous that The Client List was pulling very similar ratings. Can't imagine a more diverse group of audiences.

Funny you mention it, had three people mention that show to me today (well, one mentioned it & the other two responded with immediate recognition & informed commentary)

I figured Pete would be the one to off himself.

I'll be fairly disappointed if there aren't a few more surprises and a cliffhanger for the finale. Not necessarily expecting another death, but there are still some unresolved issues and potential bombs waiting out there.

If Elizabeth Moss is indeed leaving the show, that's a huge void to try and fill. She has virtually been the second lead in the show since day one. Without her, we're left with Fat Betty, Megan the Actress and the Artist Formerly Known as Joan as the female stars. I don't like what they've done with Joan the last couple of seasons -- they have basically just been using her by put her in a slinky red dress every once in a while to punctuate the dreariness.

watched the inside the actor's studio last night. 2 things

1. no peggy
2. the only person to complain about the financial situation was jared harris (lane)

If Elizabeth Moss is indeed leaving the show, that's a huge void to try and fill. She has virtually been the second lead in the show since day one. Without her, we're left with Fat Betty, Megan the Actress and the Artist Formerly Known as Joan as the female stars. I don't like what they've done with Joan the last couple of seasons -- they have basically just been using her by put her in a slinky red dress every once in a while to punctuate the dreariness.

I have read that one of the themes this season is that all the women in Don's life are doing things that complete surprise him, to the point where he's unmoored & likely that unmooring shakes him out of his work slump (as we've already seen a bit). Peggy leaves, Megan decides to reject advertising (even though she's really good at it) and be an actor, Betty has let herself go big time, and Joan decided to prostitute herself into partner (& lets not forget that Sally is growing up quick) - lots of massive changes in the women in Don's life

given that weiner likes to write real world stuff into the show i almost wonder if elizabeth moss got an offer to do something else.

but her imdb doesn't say anything so.. shurg

I doubt she's permanently written off because I feel like we would have heard about it ahead of time, or at least by now.