Is it me, or are reviewers snubbing sports sims like FOF & OOTP and others more so than ever before. I can remember the days(5-7 years ago) when gamespy, gamespot, and many others would always review these games. It sems to me like the genre is becoming more of a cult following and much less mainstream than previously. Anyone else notice this?

To be honest with you, I am not even sure copies were sent out to the reviewers, so I don't know if it is a snub or not.

I know Bill Abner wrote a recnet review for FOF 2k7 and sent it in to either GameShark or Gamespy but they chose not to publish it I guess. He gave the game a 4 out of 5 stars. I read about this over on his Blog a few weeks ago. I hope he sees this and posts the review he if he could since he is great review of sports games.

PSU, back in the day when GameSpy did, it was very likely because Tony Wyss was still on staff there. Once he left, I think the text sims started getting far less love there.

PSU, back in the day when GameSpy did, it was very likely because Tony Wyss was still on staff there. Once he left, I think the text sims started getting far less love there.

That would make sense. It sems they'll do OOTP, but not FOF any longer. I don't think they (or hardly anyone else for that matter) did BBCF, Eastside or Puresim. None of them. What is Tony up to these days?

PS- no football manager either for gamespy.

Last I talked to him, he was in the music business, but that was maybe 5 years ago. Couldn't tell you what he's doing these days.

Man, I had forgotten all about Tony.

Hard to believe that he has not checked in for several years.

FYI, I contacted GameSpy a few weeks ago about this, and it now appears that a review of FOF2K7 is likely in the next month or two.

Cute, isn't it? You contacted them a few weeks ago, and they might get on it in a couple months.

Granted, it's not one of those ginormous-budget games, but still, I think that kind of a response serves to prove PSUColonel's initial assertion, which is that these kind of games, even if they get coverage, aren't getting what they did back in the day.

I blame the lack of 300 page PCGamers. Back in the days there were so many ads that they were desperate for content to fill it with and so many obscure games, such as FOF, got reviewed. Were it not for PC Gamer I might never have heard of FOF. And it was also a mention in that review of the usenet community that eventually led me to The Sideline.

I just got the new issue of Games for Windows and it had an EHM review in it.

Granted, it's not one of those ginormous-budget games, but still, I think that kind of a response serves to prove PSUColonel's initial assertion, which is that these kind of games, even if they get coverage, aren't getting what they did back in the day.

Aren't we being a tad generous? I don't know the sales numbers, but I doub any are in the top 10 or even 15 of the week they came out. Yes, we see them because it's what this community is built around, but, really, how many "indie" games do you know of and how many more are out there that you can imagine you don't know of.

SI

I just got the new issue of Games for Windows and it had an EHM review in it.

Yea, you can find A review for every text sports game here and there, but none of the publications are making it a point to review all of them.(or at least the biggies like FM, FOF, OOTP, BBCF, EHM and so on) For example take a look at Gamespy, Gamespot, Operation Sports, Digital Sports Page. You would be very hardpressed to find more than one review for any of these games amongst all of these publications.

I've actually seen reviews of each of the "big" text sims on OS the past few years, although, they don't come out typically for a few months after release. Anyway, Operation Sports just posted their review of FOF 2007 and it is quite positive with a final score of 9 out of 10:


http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1334643#post1334643
(http://reviews.operationsports.com/reviews.aspx?game=fof2007pc)

I've actually seen reviews of each of the "big" text sims on OS the past few years, although, they don't come out typically for a few months after release. Anyway, Operation Sports just posted their review of FOF 2007 and it is quite positive with a final score of 9 out of 10:


http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1334643#post1334643
(http://reviews.operationsports.com/reviews.aspx?game=fof2007pc)


To be honest it looks like this guy gives every game especially sports textsims a 8 or 9 out of 10.

I know Bill Abner wrote a recnet review for FOF 2k7 and sent it in to either GameShark or Gamespy but they chose not to publish it I guess.

I think he submitted the review to Computer Games Magazine, so I imagine it will appear in the magazine shortly.

I've been working harder on this aspect of marketing than ever before. Back when I started, the reviewers all came to me, made it fairly easy. All I had to do was send off a copy. Now I have to do more leg work.

The answer can be found just by walking into an Electronics Boutique. I was in Briarwood Mall in Ann Arbor a couple of days ago (I go out shopping about once a year, and I was only there because I just had to have my Olga's fix while I was in town) and the EB was just scary. The PC games could only be found on a little rack near the back of the store. Eight years ago, half the shelf space was PC games. Today, it's all these consoles. I don't know if gaming is getting dumber or the consoles are finally getting useful.

Anyhow, I think I've got the game in a lot of good places. Just a matter of time before the reviews come. One major advantage of not trying to break into retail is that I don't have to get a huge percentage of my sales in a very small window.

Today, it's all these consoles. I don't know if gaming is getting dumber or the consoles are finally getting useful.

I've always been curious as to how the FM Console game does both in terms of sales and how well it translates to the Console.

I think consoles are getting more useful due to the PS3 and Wii having internet access. The Xbox started it with Xbox Live and now console gamers can play people all over the world. This used to be the domain of PC gamers but I think multi-player gaming (with the exception of MMOs) has shifted to the console.

The consoles are certainly taking a big bite out of most review sites. We've had some limited success with different sites. We've also tried some advertising with both print and online reviewing sites to try and get more overall interest in sports sims. For the most part, though, you have to do a great deal of legwork (and catch a few breaks) to get a large number of reviews.

That's why I think it's important for the sports sim community to support those groups (Bill Abner/Computer Games Mag, Bill Harris, Operation Sports, Gamenikki, PC Gamer, etc) that continue to show interest in sports sims. With such a nitch genre, what has allowed the sports sim titles to survive against the bigger "machine" genres is the passion of the fans. As long as that continues, I think we'll be OK. It's just a little tougher process than some of the consoles and larger gaming houses face.

We have our own thread for BBCF reviews if anyone is curious:

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16192

A bit off topic, how hard would be to port a text sim to the Xbox 360 as it's basicaly a PC? SI has done it with FM but i haven't seen any other text sim ported.

Do consoles have electronic distribution available? If not, I can't remotely imagine porting any text sim besides FM would be cost-effective. MAYBE it would be worth the extra time and effort if there would be electronic distribution, but I'm thinking there's no way that Jim/Arlie/Markus/Shaun/Gary/Clay would make
up the cost of time and money spent if they have to print up cartridges or CD's (or whatever consoles use these days.)

Do consoles have electronic distribution available? If not, I can't remotely imagine porting any text sim besides FM would be cost-effective. MAYBE it would be worth the extra time and effort if there would be electronic distribution, but I'm thinking there's no way that Jim/Arlie/Markus/Shaun/Gary/Clay would make
up the cost of time and money spent if they have to print up cartridges or CD's (or whatever consoles use these days.)


Yes, full games are sold on the 360 "marketplace." I also believe games are or will be electronically distributed on the PS3 and Wii.

i think for the sports sim genre to have any lasting power it'll have to be as the sim/front office half of a graphic game, much like how FOF was supposed to be in bed with EA Sports. i say use sports sims to simulate accurate stats, use them for acting as a GM, and when you wanna be a coach you grab the joystick and play the game. that's the future. people aren't paying through the nose for the latest next gen console or cutting edge PC just to look at glorified Excel games.

but, you need the developers of these game to think big and dream big. if these small indie developers are content with how their games sell and chasing a niche market then the genre dies (or stays in limbo) right there.

people aren't paying through the nose for the latest next gen console or cutting edge PC just to look at glorified Excel games.Thank you, Daivd Winter.

i saw where he was trying to go with MF. didn't get there and it's a shame, but i respect what it was that he was trying to accomplish. had it been a decent game it would have been the next level in text sim gaming.

but put it this way - from the time i first got into text sim gaming (about 7 or 8 years ago) to now the power in the average person's PC has doubled, tripled and in most cases even quadrupuled. yet we're still playing games that if there are dots that move around the screen representing players we oogle at it. i see no advancement. yeah, we're supposed to be the niche of gamers who don't care about eye candy but i'm not seeing the next evolution in text sim gaming. so yeah, the gaming industry as a whole left text sim gaming in the rearview mirror. in my mind text sim gaming wasn't ever meant to mean having to sacrifice graphics for solid game engines. to me it was always about indie programmers not having the resources to focus on both so sound code always won out. to me the genre was always about heading in the direction that MF tried to go. it was supposed to be Front Page Sports, but better. but we're essentially a decade from the first generation of modern text sim gaming (which probably started around when? mid 90s?) and i've seen baby steps worth of progress. this is not a knock any any particular game developer or company, just drawing a broad stroke over the whole genre.

the reason you don't see an outpour of coverage/reviews is the developers, not the gaming public or the media that covers these games. the problem is game developers are trying to be these jack of all trades types, when most of them really are just suited for sitting in front of a PC and hammering away at code all day. out of the entire text sim industry i see SI Games having the resources to really make a dent in terms of brand awareness and progress. why do you think we've seen in the last few years indie game developers relinquising control of their products and coming underneath the SI umbrella? games like OOTP and EHM have seen the light and know that their best chance of getting to the next level means doing what they do best and allowing SI to focus on all the rest.

so, knock David Winter all you want, but don't knock what he was trying to do. i respect it and wish i had the talent to make a game like MF. if i could do all that by myself - which David did - my friends would think i was a genius. yet we have a 100 page yuck-yuck fest over here laughing and pointing at him cuz he kicked the ball and it went wide right. this text sim genre's only hope is to make games like what MF was trying to be.

why do you think we've seen in the last few years indie game developers relinquising control of their products and coming underneath the SI umbrella? games like OOTP and EHM have seen the light and know that their best chance of getting to the next level means doing what they do best and allowing SI to focus on all the rest.You're right, of course. Going with SI did wonders for OOTP.

You're right, of course. Going with SI did wonders for OOTP.

point taken. i didn't buy the game but i'm holding off on sending them to the gallows cuz it was their first game w/ SI, so i will allow for first time kinks and the problems and pressures that come wit' rewriting the entire code. next version is gonna have to come correct i would have to think.

A bit off topic, how hard would be to port a text sim to the Xbox 360 as it's basicaly a PC? SI has done it with FM but i haven't seen any other text sim ported.

The original Xbox was closer to a PC, and would be pretty easy. That's why I never understood why NCAA couldn't come out on the PC, since the heavy lifting was done creating the Xbox version. The next gen consoles would be much more difficult to port to, since they aren't using Intel CPUs anymore. They've moved on to multi-core IBM chips (PowerPC for the 360, Cell for the PS3). That involves a whole new compiler and different way of programming for the new architectures.

You're right, of course. Going with SI did wonders for OOTP.

You can't cram a niche product down a mass market throat. And these games are too complex for the majority who is more than satisfied with an EA product.

I think the problem with MF was ambition. David tried to compete with everyone in everything, and did nothing particularly well.

I'd love to find an established company like SI, or where Grey Dog is headed, that would like to do a front end for FOF, but there's a reason companies aren't knocking on my door the way they did back in 1998. The market is very limited right now. We're in a period of great hardware change, and companies are very afraid to take chances on niche products. PC gaming is in a bad spot right now. I hope it's more like the sitcom on network television, where it's at the bottom of a long cycle. But who knows?

Porting a game like FOF to a console would be a huge amount of work. I know the graphics don't look like anything special, but it's still a lot to get them on the screen. I choose not to have a lot of pretty bitmaps, there's still a lot of overhead to get thousands of numbers on to a screen in a functional manner.

FOF is a lot larger than it was in 1998. It wouldn't fit on even state-of-the-art PCs made in that era. I use the memory for computations and data storage the way graphics-oriented games use it for pretty animations. That is my niche.

Sure, I like to dream big, but I sure was right not to sign with Stallings when he asked. I can't get big alone, but I could easily lose it all if I make the wrong expansion decisions. I'm looking for new opportunities - very seriously right now. But it has to be done carefully.

i made it a point to try not to call out any developer in particular, but as an aside to Solecismic's post (and i'm not reading too deep into it) i have to say that i look forward to what may be in store opportunity-wise down the road in the future. it's refreshing to hear that if it makes sense the company isn't adverse to expansion/partnerships and that if the stars align they'll drop their "go it alone" approach.


the current trend in PC games is extremely baffling to me. i thought the high end, cutting edge PC market was dependent on the content that PC games provided. it just seems like nowadays it's akin to buying a sports-car in NYC or LA - lots of power under the hood but if you're stuck in traffic all that speed is good for nothing. i don't know why people are buying all these high end PCs if even 25% of them don't do it for the ability to play the newest in PC games. perhaps we'll see a major shift in the gaming industry, one that sees retail stores like EB become console-only territory, and PC games being sold in the CompUSAs of the world. perhaps we're headed for a trend where after the PC salesman sells you your new multi-core CPU, he takes you to the other end of the store and asks if he can interest you in some top of the line games to play on your new monster rig.

the current trend in PC games is extremely baffling to me. i thought the high end, cutting edge PC market was dependent on the content that PC games provided. it just seems like nowadays it's akin to buying a sports-car in NYC or LA - lots of power under the hood but if you're stuck in traffic all that speed is good for nothing. i don't know why people are buying all these high end PCs if even 25% of them don't do it for the ability to play the newest in PC games. No kidding. Each of the last two times that I bought a new PC, it was because of the release of a particular game. Empire Earth moved me from (I think) 400MHz/128K to 1.6GHz/512K. Then about 3 years later, Civ4 got me up to 3.0GHz/1GB/GForce video card.

HA --

I think many people are going to find their systems taxed with the release of Vista. And that doesn't even take into account how next-gen PC games, such as Flight Sim 10, seem to promise to be extraordinary resource hogs. I think we've been in a bit of a utopia these last few years where games hadn't been so far ahead of machines to play them on. I think that era is ending and we are returning to the "upgrade or die" era.

PC gaming is in a bad spot right now. I hope it's more like the sitcom on network television, where it's at the bottom of a long cycle. But who knows?


Ain't that the truth. This has been predicted for many years now and I guess it's here (or has been here for some time). Out of curiousity, I looked at the Top 15 PC titles for October 2006:



The Sims 2 Pets (Electronic Arts)
World Of Warcraft (Vivendi)
Battlefield 2142 (Electronic Arts)
Warhammer 40,000: Dawn Of War -- Dark Crusade (THQ)
Flight Simulator X Deluxe (Microsoft)
The Sims 2 Glamour Life Stuff (Electronic Arts)
Company of Heroes (THQ)
Paws & Claws: Pet Vet (Valusoft)
The Sims 2 (Electronic Arts)
Flight Simulator X (Microsoft)
Guild Wars Nightfall (NCsoft)
Seaworld Adventure Parks Tycoon 2 (Activision)
Desperate Housewives (Buena Vista Games)
Civilization IV (2K Games)
Age Of Empires III: WarChiefs (Microsoft)
Guild Wars Nightfall: Collector's Edition (NCsoft)
Lego Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy (LucasArts)
Age Of Empires III (Microsoft)
SimCity 4 Deluxe (Electronic Arts)
The Sims 2 Nightlife (Electronic Arts)

Not sure what one can conclude from a one-month snapshot but I see the usual dominance of online games plus the few popular strategy series that are left (Civ, AoE, SimCity, Flight Sim) and few others not sure how to categorize...and no PC sports titles.

I have a question about text sims on consoles. I know my perception is dated in that what was hooked up to a console can only have minimal text and those text has to be very large to be readable (like those in Madden). But with the HDTV sets, has it gotten to the point where you can read small text as good as a PC with a flat screen or low pitch CRTs? In my mind, I can't imagine trying to play a game like FOF or OOTP on a console but I wonder how FM works since the presentation is about the same.

Also, I also believed that one of the fundamental limitations in playing strategy titles on a console is the very limited user input mechanism (i.e., gamepad/joystick vs keyboard/mouse). Has that been resolved to where the newer generation consoles can accept keyboard/mouse. I would think that would be critical to play a text sim on a console for while a game like FOF or OOTP can be expertly played with just a mouse, there are lots of movements that would make it harder to do with a non-mouse device. Again, how does FM do it?

I have a question about text sims on consoles. I know my perception is dated in that what was hooked up to a console can only have minimal text and those text has to be very large to be readable (like those in Madden). But with the HDTV sets, has it gotten to the point where you can read small text as good as a PC with a flat screen or low pitch CRTs? In my mind, I can't imagine trying to play a game like FOF or OOTP on a console but I wonder how FM works since the presentation is about the same.


Well, if a text game is going to be played in HD on a console, the HD resolutions are:

480p: 852x480 (ugh)
720p: 1,280x720
1080i/p: 1,920x1,080

So 720 and 1080 would be sufficient to run text sims, since those resolutions are in the range of what most people run on their desktops.

Just thought I would resurrect this thread, seeing that there was only a grand total of two FOF reviews published after this past release. I'm just trying to understand what's happened in terms of interest....OOTP already has more reviews in less than a month than FOF has had in 6 months.

I missed this thread the first time around. Pretty interesting discussion.

Just thought I would resurrect this thread, seeing that there was only a grand total of two FOF reviews published after this past release. I'm just trying to understand what's happened in terms of interest....OOTP already has more reviews in less than a month than FOF has had in 6 months.

OOTP is backed by SI, that has to be a big help in getting reviews for OOTP.

With the first couple FOF games, text sims (especially a NFL sim) were relatively new to most people. I think the newness of the genre is wearing off and to be quite honest, text sims haven't really evolved at anywhere near the rate console games have. For FOF the biggest selling feature added since the initial version is multiplayer and as stated above, consoles can handle that now.

Its the same for all text sims. The newness is gone and unless you're a fan of the genre, there really isn't anything to pull you in now.

OOTP is backed by SI, that has to be a big help in getting reviews for OOTP.

With the first couple FOF games, text sims (especially a NFL sim) were relatively new to most people. I think the newness of the genre is wearing off and to be quite honest, text sims haven't really evolved at anywhere near the rate console games have. For FOF the biggest selling feature added since the initial version is multiplayer and as stated above, consoles can handle that now.

Its the same for all text sims. The newness is gone and unless you're a fan of the genre, there really isn't anything to pull you in now.



True, but if you're going to acknowledge sports text sims as a genre, why not do reviews? I am also noticing that other text sims are "getting more love" than FOF. I agree with you that an SI backed product helps, but there are a lot of other companies getting more respect from the press than solecismic. (Greydog, Sports mogul, Beaufiful Games Studios, Wolverine Studios)

I missed this thread the first time around. Pretty interesting discussion.

"

"

x3

Very interesting indeed.

You guys want a review. Fine.



FOF looking good after release.



Add one to the review count.

PS- no football manager either for gamespy.

They have it in under World Wide Soccer Manager, the US title for FM...got an 8.6 i believe

I've always been curious as to how the FM Console game does both in terms of sales and how well it translates to the Console.

Randomly, a funny quote about FM:

"Gordon later added: "Whenever I was thinking of buying a player for Southampton I'd check out his stats on Championship Manager to see if he was any good. It usually worked ...until I bought Agustin Delgado.""

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/worldcup06/2006/06/19/england_should_be_hoping_for_g.html

Game reviews = payola?

Someone call the FCC!

Just thought I would resurrect this thread, seeing that there was only a grand total of two FOF reviews published after this past release.
Actually, there are three "official" ones published by sites that I know of, and one extended user one, presumably by our own larrymcg:


Gamenikki (9/10) (http://www.gamenikki.com/g3/reviews/indie/Display.php?id=13)
Operation Sports (9/10) (http://reviews.operationsports.com/reviews.aspx?game=fof2007pc)
Football Outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2007/01/09/ramblings/reviews/4804/)
larrymcg (5/5) (http://www1.epinions.com/content_338483515012)

Dola:

But the point still stands.

I'm just thinking out loud.. but I wonder how much of an impact a single person "in the right place" can affect a smaller genre.

Bill Abner recently joined Gameshark (Source (http://www.gameshark.com/staff-blogs/2243/William-Abner-Joins-GameShark.htm)) as and Assistan Editor. Perhaps he can help bringing the genre to the spotlight again, and not have his reviews go on the backburner at Gamespy :).

To be honest I have no idea how popular or big Gameshark is, though.

While I think Bill Abner enjoys the genre, I don't see him becoming some type of champion of text sims.