The Washington Nationals named a new owner about an hour ago, so why does this man still have a job?

Fire Jim Bowden NOW.

The Washington Nationals named a new owner about an hour ago, so why does this man still have a job?

Fire Jim Bowen NOW.

Stan Kasten ain't any bargain either IMO.

The Nationals are playing by house rules I think.

The Nationals are playing by house rules I think.

lmao. well played.

Despite having only three or four legit Major League caliber ballplayers, I thought the strength of the Expos/Nationals franchise was their farm system, which had traditionaly been one of the dtrongest in the game. Now I come to learn that, since the team being sold to MLB, the farm system is completely barren of talent. I mean there are NO major league hopefuls in that system. That is very very depressing.

Yes, Major League Baseball destroyed that team worse than it was, then found retreads to run it for them.

This new owner has got a real job on his hands, but the Marlins proved that you can play with an empty cupboard and come back a few years later and contend. And he's got something they don't, the willingness to spend money.

Or at least, one can hope.

I predict a lot of upset fans come next spring when they don't spend big money to bring in big name free agents (assuming they are serious about building up through the farm system).

As far as Bowden, I guess they can't fire him until baseball officially sells them the team.

AS if the situation in DC can't get any more strange, there's an article in todays WaPo about Jose Guillen's girlfriend who was mugged outside a check cashing store after cashing Jose's MLB paycheck. That is just disturbing on too many levels.

EDIT: Linky http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401005.html

AS if the situation in DC can't get any more strange, there's an article in todays WaPo about Jose Guillen's girlfriend who was mugged outside a check cashing store after cashing Jose's MLB paycheck. That is just disturbing on too many levels.

Wow, that's hilarious.

http://www.wmsecurities.com/winter2005/directdposit.gif

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/30/AR2006063001389.html


Nationals' Kasten Will Keep Bowden

Move to Retain GM Termed 'Permanent'

By Barry Svrluga (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/barry+svrluga/)
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 1, 2006; Page E01
Stan Kasten, the incoming president of the Washington Nationals, yesterday announced he would keep Jim Bowden as the team's general manager when new ownership takes over later this month, providing stability to the front office during a period that could bring significant upheaval on the field.
"Jim is very smart," Kasten said last night at RFK Stadium. "By smart, I mean analytical. I love that. I also think he's very resourceful. . . . And right now, as we're building this -- needing to speed the process up as quickly as we can, needing to shave any unnecessary steps -- I need someone resourceful. I think Jim is really good at that."
<table align="right" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="238"><tbody><tr><td width="10">
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ON THE FIELD

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Nick Johnson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070101219.html) homers in the 10th inning for his first game-ending drive, lifting the Nationals over the Devil Rays, 4-3.
Notebook: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070101001.html) The Nationals place starting pitcher Shawn Hill on the 15-day disabled list and reinstate Pedro Astacio from the 60-day disabled list.
The Nationals will retain General Manager Jim Bowden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/30/AR2006063001389.html) when the team is officially sold to a group led by Theodore Lerner.
Thomas Boswell: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/29/AR2006062902224.html) The American League is kicking the living daylights out of the National League like no league has ever dominated the other.
Frank Robinson's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/22/AR2006062201702.html) legacy was created in Baltimore but the Nationals manager understands his future is entirely unpredictable.
Saturday's Box: Nats 4, Devil Rays 3 (10) (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?gamecode=260701120)
NATIONALS REPORT

Personnel Dept.
Jose Vidro batted leadoff last night and Alfonso Soriano dropped to third. Vidro last led off on Aug. 16, 2002, while playing for the Montreal Expos. He led off the game with a walk, and Soriano walked in his first plate appearance as well. . . . GM Jim Bowden said RHP Tony Armas Jr.'s rehab is on schedule.
Quotable
"At times, you feel like the players want to get the first pick in the country instead of the fifth pick or tenth pick in the country more than we do."
-- Nationals GM Jim Bowden, on his team's struggles. The team that finishes with the worst record in the majors gets the first pick in the draft.
By the Numbers
1,071th: Career appearance made by Mike Stanton on Friday night, tying him with Dennis Eckersley for third in career games pitched.
OWNER IS NAMED

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/05/04/PH2006050400128.jpg (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nationals/natsindex.html)
Stan Kasten is confident that the stadium project (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/04/AR2006010401468.html) can be completed on time, even though major design elements could change.
A crowd of more than 600 celebrated the groundbreaking (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401732.html) for the new stadium.
Video: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2006/05/04/VI2006050401282.html) Post's Nakamura reports on the groundbreaking ceremony for new stadium.
Theodore N. Lerner, pictured, is introduced as the new owner of the Nats (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/03/AR2006050301121.html).
Thomas Boswell: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/03/AR2006050302655.html) To many, the surprise about a previously mysterious Lerner seems utterly normal.
ON OUR SITE

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Gallery: (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%28window.open%28%27http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2006/04/11/GA2006041101546_metaRefresher.htm%27,%27cwgallery_win%27,%27toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no,scrollbars=no,resizable=no,copyhistory=no,width=730,height=670,left=0,top=0,screenX=0,screenY=0%27%29%29) The Nationals lose in their 2006 RFK Stadium debut.
Video: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2006/04/11/VI2006041101153.html) Vice President Cheney throws out the first pitch.
BASICS

Roster (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/teamreports.asp?tm=20&report=stats)
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<script>setTimeout('update_delicious_form(delicious_cookie)',1)</script> </td></tr></tbody></table> Kasten would not discuss the length of Bowden's contract, saying only that he considered the move "permanent." Bowden's current deal with Major League Baseball, which has sold the team to the family of Bethesda real estate magnate Theodore N. Lerner, runs through October.
"It's a great opportunity," Bowden said. "I think every GM dreams about being a GM of a big-market club, being able to work for first-class ownership and being able to work for a president that knows how to win."
Bowden will have the power to make trades, build the Nationals' minor league and scouting departments and determine who will manage the club. Manager Frank Robinson's contract runs through this year. Asked about Robinson, Bowden said only, "We'll make decisions that are in the best interest, long-range, for this franchise."
That echoes Kasten's mission. The marriage of Kasten, the former president of the Atlanta Braves, and Bowden, who ran the Cincinnati Reds for more than a decade, has been developing for months, since Kasten visited the Nationals' spring training site in Viera, Fla. At the time, each was forging ties with the Lerners.
Kasten, who originally headed his own bid to buy the Nationals, eventually joined the Lerners' bid. After being named the winning bidders, the Lerners named Kasten -- who has a small ownership stake in the franchise -- as the team's president, and they have consistently deferred to Kasten on decisions regarding the organization's structure.
"This is Stan's decision," said Mark Lerner, the son of Ted Lerner and the team's general partner. "We support that, but it's his decision."
Bowden, 45, met Mark Lerner shortly after Bowden was named the Nationals' general manager in November 2004. The pair hit it off personally, and Bowden frequently joined Lerner family members when they visited RFK. And though Bowden said, "I was told upfront that Stan was going to make the decision," it's clear his relationship with Mark Lerner and others helped.
"He established a relationship with the winning group very early on," said one Nationals front-office member, who asked to remain anonymous because of the uncertain nature of other positions in the organization. "He was very smart about that, and he showed them how hard he worked at this."
Bowden, though, is a polarizing figure in baseball. He can be alternately gregarious and short-tempered, and his mood swings have left some players, coaches and front-office members wondering which character they'll encounter on a day-to-day basis. Fiercely competitive, he has a reputation for being impulsive and living in the moment, a quality that could be tempered by Kasten's plea for patience.
But Bowden, too, has extremely ardent supporters who laud his creativity and his ability to think several steps ahead of others working on the same problems. He has an almost insatiable appetite for work, frequently sleeping only a few hours in a night.
His record with the Nationals is mixed. Some of his moves -- such as signing pitcher Esteban Loaiza and drafting third baseman Ryan Zimmerman last year -- have worked out. Others -- such as signing light-hitting shortstop Cristian Guzman to a four-year deal -- have not. And the result of his splashiest move, trading for second baseman Alfonso Soriano and moving him to the outfield, could be determined in the coming month, when the Nationals will either trade Soriano for prospects or try to sign him to a long-term deal.
Tony Tavares, the outgoing president of the Nationals, was thrown together with Bowden, and he immediately came to respect Bowden's analytical nature.
"It's time for this franchise to have some stability," Tavares said. "This is a good step in that direction. You've got somebody who's smart, somebody with a plan, somebody who's been involved with building things here, who's going to keep it going in the right direction."
Bowden has an unresolved charge of driving under the influence of alcohol stemming from an April incident in Miami. One of Bowden's attorneys, John Bergendahl, said the trial, originally scheduled for next week, has been put off indefinitely. Kasten would not comment on what impact the case had on his evaluation of Bowden other than to say, "I've made the decision I've made."

This franchise is FUCKED.

This franchise is FUCKED.

This is about the exact reaction I expected from you Todd ;).

Permanent = 6 months? :)

http://cooperstownkid.blogspot.com/2006/07/zephyrs-larry-broadway-ignored-by-new.html#links

Zephyrs Larry Broadway Ignored by New Owners

The Washington Nationals refusal to call up prospect Larry Broadway from New Orleans sets a dubious tone for the team's new ownership, despite its big talk about "doing things right" and commitment to winning. By recent count Broadway, a power-hitting first baseman, was hitting .308 with nine homers, after hitting .339 in the Arizona Fall League, and was well on pace toward reaching close to the 100 RBI plateau by the end of the Zephyrs season. Moreover, Broadway has been named to the Triple A All-Star team in which the top players in the International League will face off against the best in the Pacific Coast League.

Yet when Nationals first baseman Nick Johnson missed several games with injury, and even when the team needed a DH during interleague play, Broadway was left to languish in the steamy Mississippi Delta. It's still very early in the Lerner Group's tenure as new owners of the Nationals, but with GM Jim Bowden staying on without interruption, excuses wear thin for the team's failure to call up Broadway and put the best possible team on the field. With the Kansas City Royals and Florida Marlins, major league baseball already has two too many teams that rank bean counting ahead of achievement.

At 25, Broadway has earned the chance to familiarize himself with major league play and its commensurate pressure. For the sake of Broadway's development, the National's should disregard his rendezvous with salary arbitration and let him play as often and as soon as possible.

Let's not go crazy over the 25 year old first baseman with a .160 ISO and 3:1 K/BB ratio here...

Let's not go crazy over the 25 year old first baseman with a .160 ISO and 3:1 K/BB ratio here...

Paging FOFC stat grinders.

Paging FOFC stat grinders.

The phrase "Triple-A Sean Casey" sounded mean... :p

This new owner has got a real job on his hands, but the Marlins proved that you can play with an empty cupboard and come back a few years later and contend. And he's got something they don't, the willingness to spend money.
The other difference, besides the willingness to spend money, is that while the Marlins tore down their major league roster (twice), they got in return a lot of good prospects. Those prospects helped form the core of their 2nd World Series trophy, and it wouldn't surprise me if their current crop helps form another World Series trophy in the next 5+ years. So it isn't accurate to say the Marlins went "empty cupboard" - it'd be more akin in FOF to trading away all your best players for draft picks. You'd suck for a few years, but those draft picks would pan out eventually and give you a strong young team.

I do think Bowden still needs to go, though. Not that Brian Cashman would've been a rocket scientist without the Boss's checkbook (they rumored to bring him on before he resigned with the Yanks.)

I do think Bowden still needs to go, though. Not that Brian Cashman would've been a rocket scientist without the Boss's checkbook (they rumored to bring him on before he resigned with the Yanks.)
Give credit where it's due though - yes, the huge bankroll meant that Cashman could swallow more mistakes than most other GM's, but he's still done enough with that money to turn the cash into 3 World Series trophies and 8 for 8 in post-season appearences. Maybe Cashman couldn't do as well with a small budget as Billy Beane or Terry Ryan, but I don't think it's fair to completely discount him just because he has the Boss' bankroll behind him - he's done what many previous GM's under Steinbrenner haven't.

I think Bowden has proven himself unworthy enough times already to not maintain his employment. Seriously, what has he done in the last 2 years that should warrant him a job?

The Nats having a decent year last year was the worst possible thing for this franchise, because it gave the mistaken impression that some part of the front-office philosophy was working right.

Sadly, if they had stunk the joint out last year, and stunk this year, it would have been the impetus to being in a new GM and rebuild the farm system.

Now, Bowden is going to tinker with this team as if he thinks they are a few pieces away from a contender, when in fact there are little more than 3-5 players on the current roster that you could build a winning team around.

I think Bowden has proven himself unworthy enough times already to not maintain his employment. Seriously, what has he done in the last 2 years that should warrant him a job?


Drafted Ryan Zimmerman and traded for Alfonso Soriano. If this trade deadline sees the Nats with Soriano, Vidro and Hernandez traded for legitimate prospects, the organization will be in much better shape than it was two years ago. Not defending the overall talent level, just saying his first round pick and major personnel move have netted the Nats their best hitter and maybe the best 3B prospect already at the MLB level.

I'll concede the point about Zimmerman, although I doubt Bowden had much to do directly with that choice, I can give him the benefit of the doubt.

Soriano? What difference has he made? 10-games under .500 instead of 15? Sure he can hit and everything, but we'll see how Bowden handles the trade deadline. I'll betcha a pair of tickets he botches this .

Soriano? What difference has he made? 10-games under .500 instead of 15? Sure he can hit and everything, but we'll see how Bowden handles the trade deadline. I'll betcha a pair of tickets he botches this .

If you don't think that they'd be worse with WIlkerson instead of Soriano, you're nuts.

No doubt they'd be worse off, but they're not THAT much better off - see the Nats record WITH Wilkerson and WITHOUT Wilkerson and get back to me.

Using Soriano as an example of what Bowden has done right is weak at best, and the jury is still out pending July 31st.

Having been a Reds fan for many years let me give my assessment of Bowden.

The guy will make a number of great trades. He's very active and very creative in his offers. He'll consistently land players that make a difference. He'll also give away a lot of young talent in the process.

His record on position players is pretty good. He can draft and develop position players, especially outfielders. He's enamored with "five-tool" guys and will draft a lot of them.

His record with pitching is terrible. He simply can't draft/develop pitching. The Reds kept using draft picks on pitchers and they either got hurt or went bust. I know that Bowden didn't develop a single top three starter during his long Reds tenure.

His trading and inability to develop pitching leads to a bare minor league system. This is where the Nats should worry. They say they want to build a strong farm system, but Bowden works best with a veteran club that needs some creative trading to get them over the top. The Reds farm system is still paying for his reign.

He's stuck on drafting high school pitching. No matter that college pitchers have a better development record, he's always going to pick the high school guy. Add that to a poor development regimen in the minors and you end up with a lot of bonus money that never leads to the big club.

He'll say and do a lot of embarassing/grandstanding things. The same personality that makes him a great interview also leads to a lot of "What did he just say?" moments. He needs to be out in front of the team too much. He's most happy when the story is about how smart he is.

All in all he's not as bad as people make him out to be, but he's also not the guy I would want for a young club that needs to build from the minors up.

There's no question in my mind at this point that the Soriano trade was a good move. There's no way they'd be able to get the prospects being mentioned for Soriano if they were shopping Wilkerson, Sludge and Whatshisname.

Personally, I think the real test for Bowden will be if he can move some of the other vets on the team and what he can get for them.

Soriano and Zimmerman were really Bowden's only good moves (a couple retread signings have done ok, but that's bound to happen sooner or later). And the Soriano move has turned out much better than anyone expected. It was almost a complete disaster when he refused to play OF (which was Bowden's error for agreeing to the trade without consulting Soriano). And if anyone watches Nats games, you would see that Soriano is worse than Manny at patrolling LF. He gets horrible jumps, constantly misjudges balls, and has no clue what he is doing out there. But his offense does make up for it. If Soriano turns into top prospects, that is the ultimate evaluation of that trade, because he doesn't really help the Nats right now do anything worth talking about.

In the negative Bowden column, we have:

Christian Guzman - the worst regular in the game last year signed to 4 years (when no one else wanted him)!
Jose Guillen - although this trade looked ok at the time, Juan Rivera has now outplayed him for less money. He has also been a major headache
Bowden's DWI - not a good thing.
Vinny Castilla - more money pissed away on a player no one else wanted
Ryan Drese - a waiver grab that cost the Nats money for a worthless player
Tomo Ohka - letter the Brewers take a player for free that was much better than Drese
Almost all of the other retread pitchers signings (Day, Astacio, Ortiz, Halama, etc.)
The handling of Ryan Church
The failure to find anyone resembling an everyday CF (while screwing Church) - E. Chavez, Watson, P. Wilson, Escobar, and Byrd have seen way too many AB's
Wasted roster spots on Rule 5 picks with no futures (Blanco, Godwin, etc.)

And Bowden's track record with Reds was nothing to write home about. I think the decision to retain him will ensure the Nats are in rebuilding mode for a quite a while in the near future. I expect to see signings of all sorts of Guillen/Sosa type free swingers whose skills are ruined by age and injury. Some of his pitching signings will look ok because of the home field advantage, but at the end of the day, I think he will really slow the growth of the Nats down substantially.

I'm not a Bowden fan and I don't want to defend a guy who's pretty mediocre IMO....but I don't think he's done a terrible job so far with the Nats. It's not like Bowden had quality guys knocking his door down to come to a situation as screwed up as the Nationals with no owner and no stability over the last couple seasons. As John notes above several guys brought in were guys no one else wanted, but I think that's more of a reflection of the Nationals situation than on Bowden. I think the trades outside of the Soriano trade were more or less known crap for unknown crap. When you don't have much payroll, no farm system, no quality vets and a situation that no player wants to come into...I don't see taking chances on some of these guys being necessarily bad moves.

That being said, I do think the Nats could have gotten someone better for the job, but if he has someone reigning him in then I don't think it's necessarily a horrible decision to retain him for a season or two.

While I think Bee is right that the Nats had a tough situation in some regards, it should be noted that their payroll isn't that low (it's close to the middle of the pack this year). And for me, having a small payroll makes the signing of players like Guzman (4 years for $16.5 million, I think) even more unforgivable. It was just a stupid move. The flirtation with Sosa was even more idiotic. Thankfully, that didn't work out. I think Bowden's priorities have been screwed up all along. However, if Soriano turns into great prospects, then a lot is forgiven. But I'm not sure that Bowden won't screw that up as well.

And if anyone watches Nats games, you would see that Soriano is worse than Manny at patrolling LF. He gets horrible jumps, constantly misjudges balls, and has no clue what he is doing out there. But his offense does make up for it. If Soriano turns into top prospects, that is the ultimate evaluation of that trade, because he doesn't really help the Nats right now do anything worth talking about.


Not remotely true. Soriano started off pretty poorly, but has gotten steadily better. He plays deep and hugs the line, but has made a few above average catches and has a real quality arm that is accurate. He'll never get a gold glove or anything, but he's much better than Manny already.


In the negative Bowden column, we have:

Christian Guzman - the worst regular in the game last year signed to 4 years (when no one else wanted him)!
Jose Guillen - although this trade looked ok at the time, Juan Rivera has now outplayed him for less money. He has also been a major headache
Bowden's DWI - not a good thing.
Vinny Castilla - more money pissed away on a player no one else wanted
Ryan Drese - a waiver grab that cost the Nats money for a worthless player
Tomo Ohka - letter the Brewers take a player for free that was much better than Drese
Almost all of the other retread pitchers signings (Day, Astacio, Ortiz, Halama, etc.)
The handling of Ryan Church
The failure to find anyone resembling an everyday CF (while screwing Church) - E. Chavez, Watson, P. Wilson, Escobar, and Byrd have seen way too many AB's
Wasted roster spots on Rule 5 picks with no futures (Blanco, Godwin, etc.)


Let's see here, Guzman was terrible and yet was a need. The length of contract was the problem there.

Jose Guillen has been hurt this year. That's his only negative so far in DC. You can have Juan Rivera.

Yep, that DWI will really affect a teams drafting, player development and on-field performance. Nice strawman.

Nobody wanted Vinny? He got a decent SP in return in Lawrence (who is on the DL for the first time in his career---yeah, I'm looking at you Randy St. Claire)

Drese/Ohka was a definite downgrade, but getting something for Ohka wasn't going to happen.

The retread P's aren't that bad. Look at Ortiz's last 5 starts. He's settled in to being solid. Astacio is a good SP who had to work through an injury but is a good, cheap #4 or #5 SP. His stats are above average even with years in Colorado on the resume.

Ryan Church screwed Ryan Church. The assclown actually complained about being sent down first because he didn't think he had to earn the CF spot. Add in the clear indications that FRANK sent him down and doesn't want him and you can't blame Bowden there.

You have to take Rule 5 chances when you are hamstrung financially. Let's see what happens with the new owners before doing passing too much judgement. I don't think Bowden is the right guy for the rebuilding project, but don't make poor arguments to run him out.

Not remotely true. Soriano started off pretty poorly, but has gotten steadily better. He plays deep and hugs the line, but has made a few above average catches and has a real quality arm that is accurate. He'll never get a gold glove or anything, but he's much better than Manny already.

"Not remotely true." I think you are living on another planet. You could have argued that Manny is in fact worse than Soriano (which may be true), but to argue that he has improved even to the point of acceptability is just wrong. Soriano doesn't cover the expansive LF in RFK. Even worse, he seems lost on the road as each new stadium confuses him. I last saw him live in Milwaukee and he made several non-error errors during the game. He regularly starts moving one direction only having to change his angle (sometimes in the opposite direction). Having a "pretty" catch at the end doesn't mean anything if wasted time running the wrong way to get there. The refined defensive metrics (the raw ones actually show Soriano is a + LF, but when you adjust for the heavy flyball pitching staff, things change), show that Soriano is a detriment in the OF. But the usual caveats with defensive metrics apply.

Let's see here, Guzman was terrible and yet was a need. The length of contract was the problem there.

A -14.9 VORP in 2005. The problem was not just the length of the contract. And he was a subpar defender. Having a need doesn't mean you should fill it with a negative asset at high cost.

Jose Guillen has been hurt this year. That's his only negative so far in DC. You can have Juan Rivera.

Guillen 2005-2006 763 AB 200 H 33 HR 44 BB
Rivera 2005-2006 525 AB 145 H 25 HR 37 BB

Pro-rated, they are almost the same player. Rivera has been mostly healthy, but only played part time last year. Rivera is 28. Guillen is 30 with skills that won't age well. Most importantly, Guillen has been paid about 5 times as much during the same time period. It isn't the worst trade ever, but not the one a rebuilding team should make.

Yep, that DWI will really affect a teams drafting, player development and on-field performance. Nice strawman.

"Strawman." "I do not think it means what you think it means." Maybe you meant ad hom. Either way, I think the public face of team management shouldn't be getting DWI's.

Nobody wanted Vinny? He got a decent SP in return in Lawrence (who is on the DL for the first time in his career---yeah, I'm looking at you Randy St. Claire)

I actually thought the trade for Lawrence was reasonable, but again Castilla played a full year of crappy ball for the Nats for too much money before being traded. And again he was not a good player for a rebuilding team.

Drese/Ohka was a definite downgrade, but getting something for Ohka wasn't going to happen.

:confused:

The retread P's aren't that bad. Look at Ortiz's last 5 starts. He's settled in to being solid. Astacio is a good SP who had to work through an injury but is a good, cheap #4 or #5 SP. His stats are above average even with years in Colorado on the resume.

Are you Jim Bowden? Really, are you? The pitchers are working in a pitcher's paradise. If they aren't putting up league average numbers, they are well below average. Sure, if you sign enough retreads, sooner or later one or two would pan out (your examples are bad - the one you should have used was Carrasco). But that doesn't mean you are improving your team (especially a rebuilding one).

Ryan Church screwed Ryan Church. The assclown actually complained about being sent down first because he didn't think he had to earn the CF spot. Add in the clear indications that FRANK sent him down and doesn't want him and you can't blame Bowden there.

The mishandling of Church began MUCH earlier than that. And I find it interesting that you excuse a GM getting a DWI, but think your best CF should be sent down to AA (not even AAA) because he complained about playing time. Odd.

You have to take Rule 5 chances when you are hamstrung financially. Let's see what happens with the new owners before doing passing too much judgement. I don't think Bowden is the right guy for the rebuilding project, but don't make poor arguments to run him out.

I have nothing against Rule 5 picks. The problem is that Bowden grabbed players that clearly had no upside. They were too old, had had many chances to succeed and failed, and took up 25 man roster slots. If you grab someone young with a couple skills, you take the risk, but neither player had shown any potential. And again, the Nats aren't that hamstrung financially (see Royals, Marlins, etc.)

The question is simple: Has Bowden really helped build this team for the long haul? IMO, not at all. If Soriano becomes a couple top prospects, then the answer comes much closer. He would also get more bonus points if he turns Hernandez and Vidro into valuable assets. Otherwise, we have wasted 2 years of the franchise while accomplishing nothing and laying no groudwork for the future. The Nats traded their best (albeit the system was poor) pitching prospect in the Soriano deal, so for now, the farm system is probably worse than when he started.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/07/13/GR2006071300095.html - too many pics and crap to copy and paste the article...

That's a real good summary, and pretty fair.

I't all comes home to roost when the Soriano issue is resolved. If he signs, then it becomes one of the great trades in franchise history. If he gets traded for prospects, then we wait for the jury. If 7/31 passes without a trade or contract, its time to find the pitchforks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/07/13/GR2006071300095.html - too many pics and crap to copy and paste the article...

It's strange that they don't mention Guzman's signing, but do mention the signing of his replacement (Clayton) which was a far smaller deal. An on mention of Castilla or his subsequent trade (which money-wise was a big deal). Of what it does cover, I think it gives a fair summary.

Not sure what to think of todays move (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060713&content_id=1554994&vkey=pr_was&fext=.jsp&c_id=was). I don't like dumping two good relievers, but getting Kearns and Lopez in return might actually be a really good move. Looks like Guillen, with Kearns here now, is the corner OF that could be moved.

I liked the move Bowden made. Sure he got rid of a couple decent relievers, but they weren't gonna turn the team around. He gets what could be 2 good everyday starters for the future.

I liked the move Bowden made. Sure he got rid of a couple decent relievers, but they weren't gonna turn the team around. He gets what could be 2 good everyday starters for the future.

Yeah, a 26 and 23 reliever for two everyday 26 position players could really work. Add in the AAA reliever and it may end up really good.

Speaking as a Reds fan, I'm in disbelief. I know we need bullpen help but man...giving up two average starters who are both still young seems like an awful lot to give up.

Speaking as a Reds fan, I'm in disbelief. I know we need bullpen help but man...giving up two average starters who are both still young seems like an awful lot to give up.


If it makes you feel better about it, Majewski and Coffey setting up Guardado should be really good and Bray has some real nasty stuff and is only 23 with closer potential.

The trade:

Nationals acquired SS Felipe Lopez, OF Austin Kearns and RHP Ryan Wagner from the Reds for RHP Gary Majewski, LHP Bill Bray, SS Royce Clayton, INF Brendan Harris and RHP Daryl Thompson.

My reaction:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

What a fantastic deal by Bowden - getting Lopez as the franchise SS is a coup. Wow. Just, wow. Kearns has some untapped potential, too, and both are very young. Of course, their offense will suffer moving from and extreme hitter's park to a pitcher's park, but still, what a great great deal for the Nats.

Shit, if they sign Soriano, I take back everything I said about Bowden :)

Edit: Plus, the Nats got Ryan Wagner, who was a potential power-closer before some arm problems. If he pans out...zoinks!

Speaking as a Reds fan, I'm in disbelief. I know we need bullpen help but man...giving up two average starters who are both still young seems like an awful lot to give up.

Denorfia for Kearns means someone on base more, stealing bases more, and less K's, and less power. To replace Lopez, they Clayton, Castro for this year, and Phillips for next year (don't think they'll move him in the middle of the year). That's much better defense. So they got 2 good MR's for guys they feel that they can replace from within.

You know when I saw this first posted I thought he was still in Cincy.

Then today I decided to read the post and remembered he's in DC.

I hope there is another deal coming. I can't see how this helps the Reds win this year.

I trust that Krivsky is doing his best though.

I don't mind trading Kearns and Lopez, but I was hoping we could get more from a team that needs bats. The Nats could set their price because they aren't going anywhere this year. But, I guess we couldn't wait for too long to make a trade when we've lost 20 of 29.

a complete swindle by Bowden, well done.

The trade:

Nationals acquired SS Felipe Lopez, OF Austin Kearns and RHP Ryan Wagner from the Reds for RHP Gary Majewski, LHP Bill Bray, SS Royce Clayton, INF Brendan Harris and RHP Daryl Thompson.

My reaction:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

HOLY CRAP... I'll join your reaction :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:.

This was an absolute steal for the Nats. Well done, Bowden, Well Done!

HOLY CRAP... I'll join your reaction :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:.

This was an absolute steal for the Nats. Well done, Bowden, Well Done!

I've been in total disbelief since I read about the trade. I really am astounded. The Nats did amazingly well. And getting Wagner thrown in was just strange. This is absolutely great work by Bowden. I have no idea what the Reds are thinking.

a complete swindle by Bowden, well done.

I agree ... and I never, ever thought this phrase would be uttered.

Glad to see that I'm not so out of touch with baseball that I've got the same general opinion of this deal that the consensus here is.

But it's very weird to see Bowden have the clear advantage in a trade like this.

But it's very weird to see Bowden have the clear advantage in a trade like this.

Yeah - when you get your ass handed to you in a Jim Bowden trade, there is something out of whack with the universe.

Ok, I'm mad about this for very selfish reasons...

Both Bill Bray and Brendan Harris were recent graduations from my alma mater that I'm very passionate about, William and Mary. We had exactly 0 MLB players 2 years ago, now we have three with these two and Chris Ray in Baltimore. To have them all within' driving distance was cool, but I never got up to a Nats game to see them.. now they're in Cincy :(...

I was surprised to see this trade being done, but I like it as a Nats fan... Wagner I think can still be a good reliever and Lopez is an absolute upgrade over Clayton/Guzman. Kearns, I've always liked and it will be interesting to see where they fit him in.

I'm not so sure that this is a lopsided deal, everyone here seems to think that Kearns and Lopez are terrific players, and I don't see that. Lopez is still getting too much credit for a great first half last year, and he is horrible defensively on a team that needs help in that regard. Kearns is a good player, but has had injury problems that he has really never recovered from. Wagner is in this deal because Bowden messed up his career from the start, brought him up 2 months after he was drafted (first in his draft class to reach the majors) and got rocked soon there after. Arm troubles (and confidence problems?) after that and he hasn't been the same

And from the Reds point of view, their bullpen was terrible, and they have plenty of depth in the OF.

Yeah, but the Reds got two pitchers that really haven't distinguished themselves this year, and that's while playing at an extreme pitchers park.

Yeah, but the Reds got two pitchers that really haven't distinguished themselves this year, and that's while playing at an extreme pitchers park.


That extreme pitchers park nonsense is going to disapeer soon. RFK was that way last year due to a home team that was heavy on pitching with no bats to speak of. This year, with more power in Soriano and Zimmerman, as well as a weaker staff, RFK is playing closer to the norm. It's a good pitchers park, but not by that much.

That extreme pitchers park nonsense is going to disapeer soon. RFK was that way last year due to a home team that was heavy on pitching with no bats to speak of. This year, with more power in Soriano and Zimmerman, as well as a weaker staff, RFK is playing closer to the norm. It's a good pitchers park, but not by that much.

:confused: Park effects are determined by looking at the differential of teams at home and on the road. Having a heavy pitching, light hitting team doesn't warp the park effect like that. Even if RFK plays a little better for hitters this year, to say that it is "nonsense" that RFK is an extreme pitchers park relative to the rest of the league seems a little strong.

For fun, I started up Baseball Mogul as the Nats. I made the trade offer exactly as it occurred yesterday. The Reds GM response was:

"I hate my job. Shoot me now."

:)

FWIW, Clayton isn't exactly the clear defensive upgrade over Lopez that everyone thinks he is. This isn't Roybe Clayton of 3 years ago, his defense has been steadily declining. For that matter, he is the definition of an offensive black hole, while Lopex gets on base 35% of the time and has solid power for an MI even in a "down" season. And he is only 26. If his defense is that awful and completely outweighing his offensive contirbution, then flip him and Phillips (as Phillips is apparently the SS of the future anyway).

As for Kearns, even though the Reds have an in house replacemnt for him, the reason the Reds got swindled in this trade is because I can't believe this is the best package they could get for two young, above-average starting position players who are still under team control for a couple of more years. Two decent to good MI's, a bench player, Royce Clayton, and a pitching prospect with injury problems. Even if it doesn't hurt the Reds so much on the field, they needed to get more value back in the trade.

FWIW, Clayton isn't exactly the clear defensive upgrade over Lopez that everyone thinks he is. This isn't Roybe Clayton of 3 years ago, his defense has been steadily declining. For that matter, he is the definition of an offensive black hole, while Lopex gets on base 35% of the time and has solid power for an MI even in a "down" season. And he is only 26. If his defense is that awful and completely outweighing his offensive contirbution, then flip him and Phillips (as Phillips is apparently the SS of the future anyway).

As for Kearns, even though the Reds have an in house replacemnt for him, the reason the Reds got swindled in this trade is because I can't believe this is the best package they could get for two young, above-average starting position players who are still under team control for a couple of more years. Two decent to good MI's, a bench player, Royce Clayton, and a pitching prospect with injury problems. Even if it doesn't hurt the Reds so much on the field, they needed to get more value back in the trade.

And Bray's track record really isn't much different than Wagner's. They both were first round picks who were relievers from the start. Bray hasn't really been that consistent in the minors and has very limited major league experience. He could easily implode like Wagner. And although Wagner is down, they have similar upsides. So, Bray has an advantage for now over Wagner, but not that much.

Majewski has been a good reliever, but nothing to set the world on fire. His peripherals this year give some cause for concern. It's much easier to dig up two league average to above average middle relievers than it is to find starting quality OF's and SS's with upside.

I also agree that Clayton is on a defensive decline and not nearly the upgrade on that side as Reds fans would hope.

From the Nats perspective, they need SS defense less than most teams with a pitching staff that probably has the highest flyball ratio in the league (although I haven't checked the stats on that).

:confused: Park effects are determined by looking at the differential of teams at home and on the road. Having a heavy pitching, light hitting team doesn't warp the park effect like that. Even if RFK plays a little better for hitters this year, to say that it is "nonsense" that RFK is an extreme pitchers park relative to the rest of the league seems a little strong.


2005 Ballpark Effect (RFK): 2006:
Runs .860 (29th) 1.092 (7th)
HR .775 (28th) .886 (23rd)
Hits .851 (30th) 1.062 (6th)
2B .888 (22nd) 1.076 (9th)
3B 1.051 (14th) 2.186 (3rd)
BB .953 (25th) .989 (18th)


That's right, the change is immense. For those who don't know, the system for ballpark effect works out so that anything under 1 favors the pitcher and anything over 1 favors the hitter. RFK has gone from extreme pitchers park to bordering on extreme hitters park in one season. The pitching/hitting changes of the Nats that I mentioned already are why I believe that to be so. Other that HR's, RFK doesn't play like a hitters park this year.

2005 Ballpark Effect (RFK): 2006:
Runs .860 (29th) 1.092 (7th)
HR .775 (28th) .886 (23rd)
Hits .851 (30th) 1.062 (6th)
2B .888 (22nd) 1.076 (9th)
3B 1.051 (14th) 2.186 (3rd)
BB .953 (25th) .989 (18th)


That's right, the change is immense. For those who don't know, the system for ballpark effect works out so that anything under 1 favors the pitcher and anything over 1 favors the hitter. RFK has gone from extreme pitchers park to bordering on extreme hitters park in one season. The pitching/hitting changes of the Nats that I mentioned already are why I believe that to be so. Other that HR's, RFK doesn't play like a hitters park this year.

I admitted the park is playing more like a hitter's park this year, but it is a smaller sample size (and to call it an "extreme hitters park" while it is still depressing HR's and not at the top of any offensive category seems weird). At the end of the year, we will see how strong the change has been. Either way, your statement that it only appeared to be a strong pitcher's park because of the Nats lineup last year was just wrong and that was the primary reason I was posting.

Sometimes, it takes a couple years for it to be clear what the actual park effects are. With that being said, lots of parks that depress HR increase 2B, 3B (because the OF's are bigger), so that isn't terribly surprising. The R's being over 1 is the bigger surpise, but again, with a small sample, we don't know for sure. I think it likely that the number will drop closer to 1 for R's as the year goes on and will probably play below 1 in future years. But we will see.

So now the Nats go and do something kinda vexxing. They signed Luis Matos (.207/.278/.331 with two home runs and five RBI in 55 games with Baltimore) and cut Marlon Byrd (.223/.317/.350 with five homers in 197 at-bats). I know those two aren't real earth shakers, but if you consider that the Nats CF is going to have to play between Soriano and Kearns, Byrd seems like the choice here. In the games I've seen, he's been fnatastic with the glove. Add to that his hitting is weak as opposed to paltry, and I don't get it.

So now the Nats go and do something kinda vexxing. They signed Luis Matos (.207/.278/.331 with two home runs and five RBI in 55 games with Baltimore) and cut Marlon Byrd (.223/.317/.350 with five homers in 197 at-bats). I know those two aren't real earth shakers, but if you consider that the Nats CF is going to have to play between Soriano and Kearns, Byrd seems like the choice here. In the games I've seen, he's been fnatastic with the glove. Add to that his hitting is weak as opposed to paltry, and I don't get it.

They both suck and there really isn't any significant difference between them. Matos is a year younger, FWIW. I think the Nats took a flyer on Byrd, it didn't work, and now they want to take a flyer on another failed prospect. I don't really see a problem with that.

So now the Nats go and do something kinda vexxing. They signed Luis Matos (.207/.278/.331 with two home runs and five RBI in 55 games with Baltimore) and cut Marlon Byrd (.223/.317/.350 with five homers in 197 at-bats). I know those two aren't real earth shakers, but if you consider that the Nats CF is going to have to play between Soriano and Kearns, Byrd seems like the choice here. In the games I've seen, he's been fnatastic with the glove. Add to that his hitting is weak as opposed to paltry, and I don't get it.


Matos does seem to have great speed and I would venture to guess better range in the OF, so I would think it's a defensive upgrade. With that said, the offense is like trading an anorexic for a bulimic.

Don't get your hopes up with Luis, he's awful.

Just so you know, in a recent local poll, 63% of Reds fans asked felt the team got the shaft with this deal. So it's not like we're trying to put a happy face on this one. We're not happy with it either. The consensus amongst my friends is that the package the Reds gave up should've at least yielded the 2 MR's plus Chad Cordero.

But the paper hinted that the Reds were tiring of Lopez's lackluster work ethic, and Narron said as much when he said something like "Felipe can be as good as he wants to be." Wagner's been horrendous in the minors, though, and the Reds might've milked the best season that Lopez is ever going to have out of him... so perhaps in the long run the trade won't seem so lopsided.

For now though, it looks like shit.

To me it looks like the Nationals got the better end of the deal, but considering the age of most of the guys involved this could look much different in a couple years than it does today. That being said, I'm glad to see Kearns in DC since I thought last year he looked like someone who could really develop into a big time player.

Holy crap - ESPN is reporting that the Nats are ready to pull the trigger on a deal which would send Soriano to the White Sox for....a middle reliever.

That would close the book on Jimmy Bow once and for all.

Don't you think Kasten is signing off on everythign now?

Holy crap - ESPN is reporting that the Nats are ready to pull the trigger on a deal which would send Soriano to the White Sox for....a middle reliever.

That would close the book on Jimmy Bow once and for all.

He can't be THAT dumb, can he?

The only name I saw was Brandon McCarthy. He's only in the bullpen because the Sox rotation is so deep. He is a starting pitcher and a great pitching prospect who has done well in his time in the big leagues.

Holy crap - ESPN is reporting that the Nats are ready to pull the trigger on a deal which would send Soriano to the White Sox for....a middle reliever.

That would close the book on Jimmy Bow once and for all.

The so-called middle-reliever is Brandon McCarthy. That middle-reliever was one of the top pitching prospects in baseball just a year ago and has been broken in primarily in middle relief (ala Santana and Liriano). He is only 23 years old and many think he is likely to turn into a good number 2 starter.

And from the reports I have read, McCarthy is just ONE of the players likely to be included. I would be quite happy if Soriano turned into McCarthy and Fields and/or Broadway.

There is no reason to condemn Bowden until the trade is done.

One of the guys at work said he heard the Nats were asking for McCarthy and two other prospects. He didn't know who the other two guys were.

Edit: That was from some Nationals forum he goes to, so who knows the validity.

So now the Nats go and do something kinda vexxing. They signed Luis Matos (.207/.278/.331 with two home runs and five RBI in 55 games with Baltimore) and cut Marlon Byrd (.223/.317/.350 with five homers in 197 at-bats). I know those two aren't real earth shakers, but if you consider that the Nats CF is going to have to play between Soriano and Kearns, Byrd seems like the choice here. In the games I've seen, he's been fnatastic with the glove. Add to that his hitting is weak as opposed to paltry, and I don't get it.

Kearns is excellent defensively and should be able to handle center field without a problem.

The big knock on McCarthy since he arrived in the majors has been his gopheritis. 13 in 67 MLB innings last season and another 8 in 50 this year. In the minors he struck out over a guy per inning, gave up under a hit per inning and really didnt walk many hitters. If you can do all of those things well, a few extra HRs won't hurt. See Schilling, Curt for a classic example even though he's not really a good comp here.

This season, McCarthy is walking more hitters and striking out less. Maybe I'm missing something (I've only seen him pitch one inning this year) but he looks like a slightly better version of Scott Elarton to me.

Kearns is excellent defensively and should be able to handle center field without a problem.

The big knock on McCarthy since he arrived in the majors has been his gopheritis. 13 in 67 MLB innings last season and another 8 in 50 this year. In the minors he struck out over a guy per inning, gave up under a hit per inning and really didnt walk many hitters. If you can do all of those things well, a few extra HRs won't hurt. See Schilling, Curt for a classic example even though he's not really a good comp here.

This season, McCarthy is walking more hitters and striking out less. Maybe I'm missing something (I've only seen him pitch one inning this year) but he looks like a slightly better version of Scott Elarton to me.

A pitcher with flyball tendencies will definitely do better in RFK (see John Patterson). I think you are selling McCarthy a bit short. His K rate is still solid (although it is tricky to project middle reliever numbers to starter numbers), he has three plus pitches, and is only 23. He is also 6'7" with low to mid 90's power (ie he isn't Jon Rauch). I can't seem him as worse than a 5th starter in the Majors and I think it is more likely he will be closer to a good 2nd starter. However, you never can tell, but nothing about his record in the Majors makes me worry too much. Everyone can't start out like Liriano. His HR rate is a worry, but that is why he is better playing for the Nats than the Sox.

I saw him pitch several times in August/September last year...was really big on him as a prospect coming up. I know he's got a very good scouting report and certainly looks like he should be excellent, but I just don't see it anymore.

Moving from starter to reliever should generally increase a pitcher's strikeout rate and lower their ERA. Heilman for the Mets was regarded as a very good starting pitcher prospect (not as good as McCarthy) and he's been very good to excellent in relief the last calendar year. Gagne was a middling 4th/5th starter who became absolutely nasty in relief until his elbow blew. Not saying McCarthy could/should be like these guys, but he shouldn't stagnate or regress. That's what worries me.

Last point of concern: Compare the minor league numbers of McCarthy:

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?5326

to Brandon Duckworth (former Phils prospect with a similar profile, 3 plus pitches, good track record, etc.) Phils and ChiSox play in the same league through most of the minors IIRC.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2638

More than fair point on RFK though. Certainly helped Patterson. If McCarthy can go back to missing more bats I'll like him again.:D I guess we'll see.

And, yes, I'm bored at work.

Delayed reaction here, but I continue to be somewhat flabbergasted by the trade. The Royals tried to get Kearns out of Cincinnati for years and were rebuffed and told it required Zack Greinke plus something else, which was way more than the Royals were ready willing to spend. I have no doubt, however, the Royals would have paid a quantity slightly less than Greinke, which considering Greinke was rated as one of the best pitching prospects in baseball at the time would have still be a considerable amount of talent. Huh.

Delayed reaction here, but I continue to be somewhat flabbergasted by the trade. The Royals tried to get Kearns out of Cincinnati for years and were rebuffed and told it required Zack Greinke plus something else, which was way more than the Royals were ready willing to spend. I have no doubt, however, the Royals would have paid a quantity slightly less than Greinke, which considering Greinke was rated as one of the best pitching prospects in baseball at the time would have still be a considerable amount of talent. Huh.

Yeah - McDougal and another arm ought to have been enough for Kearns by this logic. More and more, Krivsky is looking like a grade A idiot for that deal.

Delayed reaction here, but I continue to be somewhat flabbergasted by the trade. The Royals tried to get Kearns out of Cincinnati for years and were rebuffed and told it required Zack Greinke plus something else, which was way more than the Royals were ready willing to spend. I have no doubt, however, the Royals would have paid a quantity slightly less than Greinke, which considering Greinke was rated as one of the best pitching prospects in baseball at the time would have still be a considerable amount of talent. Huh.That is the difference between being in a pennant race and being out of it. You can't justify a trade like that (Kearns/Lopez for relief help) when you are 15 games out and rebuilding. But when you're in a pennant race and need bullpen help badly, you have to pull the trigger. I'm almost justifying the trade from the Reds perspective, but if they win the wild card, then it is overwhelmingly a great trade for the Reds.

In general, you mortgage the farm for a chance to win NOW in my opinion. Nothing is guaranteed in the future, so if it means trading a young uber-prospect for the missing piece to get you into the playoffs, you have to do it every time.

The so-called middle-reliever is Brandon McCarthy. That middle-reliever was one of the top pitching prospects in baseball just a year ago and has been broken in primarily in middle relief (ala Santana and Liriano). He is only 23 years old and many think he is likely to turn into a good number 2 starter.

And from the reports I have read, McCarthy is just ONE of the players likely to be included. I would be quite happy if Soriano turned into McCarthy and Fields and/or Broadway.

There is no reason to condemn Bowden until the trade is done.

Sounds like the White Sox took McCarthy off the table, but rumor is that the Nationals want both Broadway and Fields in any trade with Chicago now.

Sounds like the White Sox took McCarthy off the table, but rumor is that the Nationals want both Broadway and Fields in any trade with Chicago now.

Without McCarthy, I'm not as keen on the deal. Fields (3B) plays the same position as Zimmerman. And Broadway is not exactly dominating AA (his K rate is far from the best). I think McCarthy is the much surer thing (although Fighter of Foo makes a good case that he is not a guarantee) than either of the other players.

I saw him pitch several times in August/September last year...was really big on him as a prospect coming up. I know he's got a very good scouting report and certainly looks like he should be excellent, but I just don't see it anymore.

Moving from starter to reliever should generally increase a pitcher's strikeout rate and lower their ERA. Heilman for the Mets was regarded as a very good starting pitcher prospect (not as good as McCarthy) and he's been very good to excellent in relief the last calendar year. Gagne was a middling 4th/5th starter who became absolutely nasty in relief until his elbow blew. Not saying McCarthy could/should be like these guys, but he shouldn't stagnate or regress. That's what worries me.

Last point of concern: Compare the minor league numbers of McCarthy:

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?5326

to Brandon Duckworth (former Phils prospect with a similar profile, 3 plus pitches, good track record, etc.) Phils and ChiSox play in the same league through most of the minors IIRC.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2638

More than fair point on RFK though. Certainly helped Patterson. If McCarthy can go back to missing more bats I'll like him again.:D I guess we'll see.

And, yes, I'm bored at work.

I think the reason Gagne and others struggle as starters and thrive as relievers is the number of quality pitches they have. A reliever only needs 2 (or in very special cases 1) plus pitch. A starter really needs 3. That is the primary reason starters get pushed into relief jobs. It has been a while, but I remember seeing most scouts graded McCarthy as having 3 plus pitches. It's also true that having a 3rd quality pitch rarely helps a reliever as much as a starter, so he wouldn't get the same boost moving to relief as someone like Gagne did.

As I said, I could see the downside of McCarthy is that he becomes a decent 5th starter, but I don't see the flameout potential of Duckworth or Elarton as the likely outcome. However, with a 23 year old pitcher, a complete bust is always possible. With that being said, his stats in the Majors have been pretty good for his age. He will need to get his HR down to have a 2nd starter ERA, but that is a definitive possibility given his age.

I just think McCarthy would be a great pickup compared to some of the other prospects available (ie Broadway) because he is closest to being major league starter ready and has a solid track record in the minors and majors. That is true of very few players being talked about in the Soriano rumors.

Delayed reaction here, but I continue to be somewhat flabbergasted by the trade. The Royals tried to get Kearns out of Cincinnati for years and were rebuffed and told it required Zack Greinke plus something else, which was way more than the Royals were ready willing to spend. I have no doubt, however, the Royals would have paid a quantity slightly less than Greinke, which considering Greinke was rated as one of the best pitching prospects in baseball at the time would have still be a considerable amount of talent. Huh.

Is Greinke still cukoo for coco puffs?

Obviously, there is still some time for a trade to be announced, and as much as I liked his deal with Cincy, if this deadline passed and Soriano is still a Nat, Bowden should def be fired. Unless of course there is a deal to lock him up long term.

I think the reason Gagne and others struggle as starters and thrive as relievers is the number of quality pitches they have. A reliever only needs 2 (or in very special cases 1) plus pitch. A starter really needs 3. That is the primary reason starters get pushed into relief jobs. It has been a while, but I remember seeing most scouts graded McCarthy as having 3 plus pitches. It's also true that having a 3rd quality pitch rarely helps a reliever as much as a starter, so he wouldn't get the same boost moving to relief as someone like Gagne did.

As I said, I could see the downside of McCarthy is that he becomes a decent 5th starter, but I don't see the flameout potential of Duckworth or Elarton as the likely outcome. However, with a 23 year old pitcher, a complete bust is always possible. With that being said, his stats in the Majors have been pretty good for his age. He will need to get his HR down to have a 2nd starter ERA, but that is a definitive possibility given his age.

I just think McCarthy would be a great pickup compared to some of the other prospects available (ie Broadway) because he is closest to being major league starter ready and has a solid track record in the minors and majors. That is true of very few players being talked about in the Soriano rumors.

I can't speak to the situations of other converted starters, but Gagne does (or did) have three quality pitches. Good fastball, sick curve, and a Bugs Bunny changeup that complements the fastball nicely.

The problem was, he had no sense of pacing as a starter. He tried to strike everybody out, and ran out of gas by the 4th or 5th inning. That kind of mentality is fine as a closer, when you're pitching one or two innings, but doesn't work so well when your team is counting on you to go 6 or 7.

Obviously, there is still some time for a trade to be announced, and as much as I liked his deal with Cincy, if this deadline passed and Soriano is still a Nat, Bowden should def be fired. Unless of course there is a deal to lock him up long term.

Yeah, if there was no trade and no extension, he should be fired. You had to get something, and now he'll walk for nothing.

Yeah, if there was no trade and no extension, he should be fired. You had to get something, and now he'll walk for nothing.

If they offer him arbitration, they'll get two draft picks for him if he walks.

a 1st round sandwich pick for sure, and either the signing team's 1st or 2nd round draft pick, depending on their final record at the end of this season. It's not NOTHING, but it's not immediate help either.

Yeah, if there was no trade and no extension, he should be fired. You had to get something, and now he'll walk for nothing.
"

If they offer him arbitration, they'll get two draft picks for him if he walks.

a 1st round sandwich pick for sure, and either the signing team's 1st or 2nd round draft pick, depending on their final record at the end of this season. It's not NOTHING, but it's not immediate help either.
Or, he could accept arbitration, and they have to go through this again next season.

Or, he could accept arbitration, and they have to go through this again next season.

Seems unlikely. He'll get more as a free agent than he would in arbitration, which is part of the whole reason Washington hasn't been able to sign him yet.

Additionally, he doesn't want to be a left fielder. He wants to be a second baseman, and he's got a much better chance of that happening outside of Washington.

Looks like Bowden's bluff with Soriano didn't work out - he tried to pump up Soriano's value to get max return, but the other GM's out there refused to blink. Seems like GM's are getting more and more reluctant to deal top prospects for rent-a-players, and Bowden couldn't find a trading partner desperate enough to give up grade A prospects.

Word has it he was asking for Adam Jones or Jeff Clement (or both) from the M's, and there was no way Bavasi was going to trade his top 2 prospects for a rent-a-player.

Bowden is a goddam idiot. I'm sure he pissed off a lot of GMs with all his smirky talk about getting the price he was demanding. Worst decision made by the Lerners was to keep him. The Nationals will never build a solid club with this jackass.

I think even if they can sign Soriano long-term it would be a mistake. Doing that just doesn't make sense considering they're rebuilding over the next couple seasons. The only way not trading him was the right decision is if no one was offering prospects better than the 1st rounder and sandwich pick they'll get through arbitration.

Bowden is a goddam idiot. I'm sure he pissed off a lot of GMs with all his smirky talk about getting the price he was demanding. Worst decision made by the Lerners was to keep him. The Nationals will never build a solid club with this jackass.Preach on, my brother! I'm glad I'm not the only dyed-in-the-wool cynic in this thread.

Soriano has these guys sipping Kool-Aid. He's a great player, but...he's not the sort of guy I'd have held onto when the Nats could've acquired at least one decent young player for him.

He'll walk, because the money that the Yanks will offer him to go back to 2nd base, where he wants to be anyway..will be too great to pass up. Especially since he never wanted to leave there anyway.

I'm not surprised they bumbled this one, tho.

More rumors about the Kearns/Lopez trade (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060808&content_id=1599334&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

The Reds are grumbling that Majewski's shoulder was damaged, and that Majewski himself has told them that the Nats gave him a cortisone shot in the weeks leading up to the trade to try and alleviate the pain he was having in his shoulder.

If I was a pitcher and was getting torched the way Majewski has been, I'd probably want to blame it on something like a bum shoulder rather than on the fact that, well, I sucked.

"It was disappointing to read Wayne Krivsky's remarks this evening about the trade of Gary Majewski," Bowden said. "I never received either a call or a message from Wayne, but when I read his comments this evening, I called him and reminded him that the Cincinnati Reds had received all of the medical information they requested, both before and after the trade. It is also worth remembering that Gary pitched for us right up to the trade and has continued doing so for the Reds up until now. I was pleased to learn this evening from media reports that there is in fact no injury to Gary."

A. Apparently doing due diligence for a trade is like conducting discovery for a trial. If you don't use the right terms in your request, you don't get everything you thought you were going to get.

B. Does this mean the Reds have no legitimate reason to put the guy on the DL, if Bowden's learned he isn't injured? That makes no sense.

Having lived through the Reds own Jim Bowden era, frankly I wouldn't be inclined to believe a word he says.

I can't speak to the situations of other converted starters, but Gagne does (or did) have three quality pitches. Good fastball, sick curve, and a Bugs Bunny changeup that complements the fastball nicely.

The problem was, he had no sense of pacing as a starter. He tried to strike everybody out, and ran out of gas by the 4th or 5th inning. That kind of mentality is fine as a closer, when you're pitching one or two innings, but doesn't work so well when your team is counting on you to go 6 or 7.His fastball was solid as a starter. I believe it was generally in the 91-92 range. When he switched and no longer had to pace himself (which matched his hockey mentality much better), he seemed to be pitching more in the 95-96 range. That created an even bigger gap with his changeup which was also solid but not nearly as good as it became.

I believe the other kid that ended up going to Toronto (before coming back after being hurt) was rated much higher than Gagne.

Bowden is a goddam idiot. I'm sure he pissed off a lot of GMs with all his smirky talk about getting the price he was demanding. Worst decision made by the Lerners was to keep him. The Nationals will never build a solid club with this jackass.

He is a puppet now, with strings being pulled by Stan Kasten. It was clear listening to them in the media that Kasten had ALL decision making authority during the trade deadline countdown.

His fastball was solid as a starter. I believe it was generally in the 91-92 range. When he switched and no longer had to pace himself (which matched his hockey mentality much better), he seemed to be pitching more in the 95-96 range. That created an even bigger gap with his changeup which was also solid but not nearly as good as it became.

I believe the other kid that ended up going to Toronto (before coming back after being hurt) was rated much higher than Gagne.

Prokopec? Yeh, he had some good games.

Yeh, Gagne was a really good prospect who came up, would have a good game or two, then get rocked.

Then he came to camp one year a lot heavier, it seemed like...

Bowden is a goddam idiot. I'm sure he pissed off a lot of GMs with all his smirky talk about getting the price he was demanding. Worst decision made by the Lerners was to keep him. The Nationals will never build a solid club with this jackass.

Just be glad your GM isn't Dave Littlefield.

So, ummmm, yea. How 'bout that Soriano guy.

The Obstructionist Ignoramus is Dead! WOOT!

Jim Bowden Quits (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3943660)

Wow. Seems like an odd time of year for it...

SI

Wow. Seems like an odd time of year for it...

SI

Until you realize he was being investigated by the feds in relation to that whole 'skimming of Latin American player bonuses' thing.

Let the Mike Rizzo era begin.