This is going to be a long post, so be forewarned.

“Cheating” as a concept has bounced around in my head for a long time, but I’ve never felt particularly inclined to put my thoughts on it into print until now. What prompted this is the cheating issue(s) with regard to multiplayer FOF. As most of you realize these topics have been discussed and thence beaten to death at FOFC.

Let me first say that I’m not trying to pontificate or make myself out like a saint. Nope. I’m just exploring the subject matter. An abbreviated version of my thesis is “I don’t get it.” Better still would be to state “I can’t relate.”

So I want to address the subject of cheating, but to do I must first establish myself in the context of competition and winning.

I have always been a gamer, at least as far back as I can remember. Starting out simple (Game of Life, Sorry, Uncle Wiggly, etc.), working my way up in terms of complexity (Stratego, Risk, Scrabble, etc.), and then getting serious (wargames and APBA baseball), and ultimately heavy into computer games and text sims. This still holds true today. Rare is the occasion that I’m not willing to play a game, whatever it might be. My wife knows this, my friends and family know this, and I think most of FOFC knows this.

At the root of this is the fact that I am ultra-competitive. It’s buried in my DNA somewhere. I was a pretty good athlete in my younger days, but I had a temper that often exploded when the competitive juices started flowing. That combination was like a chemical reaction at times, and here’s why. Playing a team sport, I hated getting dicked on something…bad call, unfair advantage, poor sportsmanship, whatever…and I’d pop off about it because it was ruining my concept of what, in my mind, we were competing for. The essence of competition. It’s a battle of sorts, my/our skill against yours. My/our strategy against yours. Don’t mess with the formula which determines who wins and loses.

But it isn’t just about winning or losing. I love to win, of course, but I don’t mind losing, either. Truly, I feel that I am a gracious loser, and equally so a gracious winner. What galls me to no end, however, is losing for tainted reasons…basically when the essence of competition has been lost. A ref blows a call (see: Denkinger, Don), or a team wins due to a fluke or luck (see: Dame, Notre), or somebody cheats.

Two real-life examples to cite:

The first involves this boardgame called Speed Circuit. A long time ago (let’s say around 25 years ago), me and some friends were playing this game. It’s a race car game in which you plot your use of acceleration, brakes, tire usage, etc., against the limitations of a race course like Monza. You get X points to build your car’s capabilities at the beginning, then apply those ratings each turn of the race. Well, the bottom line was that we caught my friend Dave cheating, red-handed. He was continually erasing and adjusting his starting ratings so his car could take advantage of the course as necessary. He fessed up immediately, and his response was basically along the lines of, “It’s just a game, no biggie.”

Well, horror of frikkin’ horrors to me! Game over. Now, 25 years later, this guy is one of my very best friends in the world. We were locker partners in junior high and high school, and roomed together two years in college. He was the Best Man at my wedding. We are ultra-compatible in every way, except when it comes to games. TO THIS DAY I will only play a game with him where I know he can’t cheat at it. And I love this guy like a brother, and I know he’d take the proverbial bullet for me. Yet he permanently wrecked that essence of competition for me, in that particular way.

Petty on my part? You might say that. But what I’m getting at is that this is not a conscience thought process for me. On some weird level, I value the pure essence of competition that much. And I’m not saying I’m better than anyone who doesn’t feel that way…it’s just that cheating or otherwise impinging on the competition in that manner destroys the point of the exercise. Why play a game if you’re going to cheat to win? What is the point? We’re not matching wits or skills at that point…we’re matching the ability to cheat well. We’re not playing Speed Circuit, we’re playing Cheater.

Some might counter with a win-at-any-costs response. Well, that isn’t me. This isn’t a battle for survival. And that’s where I lose the ability to relate to cheaters. I hear suggestions or stories about how, in multiplayer FOF, you can do XYZ and thus gain so-and-so an edge by manipulating the program and/or league rules. I just read those and sort of scratch my head. Why would you want to do that? Are you playing so much for the adulation inherent in winning, even if the victory is soured in your heart of hearts by the knowledge that you achieved it only by cheating? Is there really a sense of accomplishment if you cheat and win?

I’m not saying I’m above cheating. I’m saying I don’t see the value in it.

The second real-life example is a foot race. In high school, I was a sprinter on the track team and acknowledged by my friends as clearly the fastest of the group. A couple years later, while away at college (WSU), a friend (who was just as competitive as me and who had a ton of dedication to personal goals) from UW decided to challenge me to a foot race over the summer, which was several months away. At the time, it was considered something of a joke, since he’d never had a prayer catching me in high school. Yet he kept after me, to the point where the bravado had to be taken seriously. So the race was on. As summer neared, he said we should race on the high school track (some kind of finely crushed rock surface) but made it clear that only tennis shoes were allowed. Okay, fine. Fast forward to summer, and the race day. I show up in flat-soled tennis shoes, and he shows up sporting this new pair of super-duper running shoes with these killer soles. Plus he’s got this shit-eating grin on his face. Turns out he’d been training like a madman for this race to boot. I wasn’t happy about the shoes, but we went ahead and ran anyway. And I slipped badly at the start, just as he’d intended, while he started clean. In 40 yards that’s all he needed. I caught him at the finish but the race was deemed a tie by the two friends who witnessed it. And I’ve never heard the end of it. I demanded an immediate re-race on the grass, no shoes, and beat him by three lengths, but that didn’t matter. To this day, he asks me how my 40 time is. And I just smirk back at him. He cheated. Didn’t he?

I’m not sure where I’m going with this thread, really. I guess I’d like for someone to explain, outside of the angry environment of an accusatory thread, where you’re coming from if you don’t feel the way I do.

Sorry for the novel.

Cheaters suck. They usually win too.

Then it is inevitable we find out and stick them with sharp things for the rest of their lives, reminding them of it.

I don't think it's worth it myself.

as a group, us text simmers must all have that competitive core. we're so competitive that we feel compelled to create fantasy situations that promote competition, and through our fabricated worlds (FOF, OOTP, etc) get to play out competitions.

i hate losing so much that i rarely play against humans. instead i prefer imperfect AI (ootp, etc), dominating season after season. i figure that too much of real life is spent losing, so the text sims are an escape to a world of perceived winning.

i hate losing so much that i rarely play against humans. instead i prefer imperfect AI (ootp, etc), dominating season after season. i figure that too much of real life is spent losing, so the text sims are an escape to a world of perceived winning.
I like Madden for that reason as well.

Some might counter with a win-at-any-costs response. Well, that isn’t me. This isn’t a battle for survival. And that’s where I lose the ability to relate to cheaters. I hear suggestions or stories about how, in multiplayer FOF, you can do XYZ and thus gain so-and-so an edge by manipulating the program and/or league rules. I just read those and sort of scratch my head. Why would you want to do that? Are you playing so much for the adulation inherent in winning, even if the victory is soured in your heart of hearts by the knowledge that you achieved it only by cheating? Is there really a sense of accomplishment if you cheat and win?Well, to me, the toughest part is finding the thin line between where cheating starts and outsmarting others ends. There's always a vague grey area, well, at least most of the time.

For example, when I first heard of the limited houses rule in Monopoly (the number of houses per game is fixed at around 30 I believe), I figured it would be smart to make sure to buy houses and eventually don't promote them to hotels, but stick at 3 houses, at which figure they are worth the most per spent dollar. Others could call that cheating, as you're purposely staying away from upgrades and you're keeping others away from the ability to build.

Seeing this post, I agree whole-heartedly with WSU. I would not cheat because I just do not see the value/fun in it.

I actually thought this post was headed in a different direction when it first started, which is something I have thought about often.

What do cheaters get out of cheating? I do not understand what can make it enjoyable. What personal satisfaction can you get out of knowing you won by cheating? Is it just that you enjoy bragging to others, whether you earned it or not? I would love to get someone who has cheated intentionally and enjoyed it to shed light on this because I cannot personally understand the satisfaction that comes out of winning by cheating.

When there is money involved, Ok, I can see the motivation. However, many instances we are talking about (Like WSU's examples above) do not involve money.

Winning at all costs is such a silly concept. How will you ever learn and improve if you take the easy road?

What do cheaters get out of cheating? I do not understand what can make it enjoyable. What personal satisfaction can you get out of knowing you won by cheating? Is it just that you enjoy bragging to others, whether you earned it or not? I would love to get someone who has cheated intentionally and enjoyed it to shed light on this because I cannot personally understand the satisfaction that comes out of winning by cheating.
Yes, this is really what I was driving at with the "I don't get it" statement. The psychology of cheating is foreign to me. If I cheated to win, the victory would be as sour as losing on a fluke/bad call/unfair play.

That is one thing I do not understand either. I think everyone knows I am a pretty avid gamer as well, and some of the stuff you see at our gaming sessions is pretty egregious.

I am in two leagues with my game group. I am the commissioner of our Formula De league, which is much like the Speed Circuit that WSU mentioned above, and we award points based upon how you finish in each race. It is a fairly light game since you use weighted dice for each gear to determine how far you move, but there is some strategy in how you take turns and such.

Anyway, one night there were 6 of us playing, and one of the drivers wound up coming in late. We had already completed one and a half laps (out of three), and after discussing it with the group, that he could still race, provided he did not exceed X number of turns (basically a punishment for not being there at the start time). So this guy, just starts rolling the dice, and moving his car without marking off any damage. I call him on it and he starts marking off damage. Then, he keeps on rolling dice until I ask him how many rolls he had made, he makes up a number and then questions why I don't believe him. I invoke my commissioner position and basically tell him, you will start here, if you have a problem with that don't race.

Then, in a later race, same guy, rolls his gear die. He knocks his wife's car off of her position on the track. No big deal right? The die roll comes up with the one number that he doesn't need. His wife asks him to be careful of the roll because of the other cars on the track. He says fine, that roll doesn't count, rolls again, begins to move, and suddenly he and his wife are throwing all this stuff back and forth at each other regarding their marriage and everything else! This one I just ducked because there was no way to win this one.

My thing is I just don't get it. I LOVE to win, and will do anything to do so in the spirit of the rules (I hate rule lawyers). Yet, you have these people that will try to do everything they can to win. Yet, these are the same folks that bitch loudest when someone else misses a rule innocently.

The other guys I love (although it isn't outright cheating) is those that explain a new game to you. They go over "all" the rules. Then, when you are about to do something that you have been planning for a few turns, and they can tell you have been planning to do this, they bring up this exception that prohibits you from doing that. What is the joy in beating someone that way?

I would love to get someone who has cheated intentionally and enjoyed it to shed light on this because I cannot personally understand the satisfaction that comes out of winning by cheating.


Ping: Hornsmaniac.

Seriously, I don't understand cheating either. To me, if you have to cheat to win something, then the win isn't worth anything anyhow. I come from a family of ultra-competitive bastards. My dad, my brother, and I are all fiercely competitive and absolutely hate to lose. Over the years, it has been the number one complaint I've received from various girlfriends. Basically, a lot of people I've come across don't really understand my drive to compete and win. I've mellowed a bit from the college days, when I would take losing as a personal insult. And I was certainly not above rubbing it in when I won. I'd like to think I'm a better sport these days than I was, but the truth is losing still really bothers me. (You can imagine how cthomer's streak of division wins and head-to-head wins bothers me.)

My main complaint with Madden and other console sport games is that winning comes too easily, and not just on the field. I can set up the game so that the computer will routinely beat me on the field, but that's no fun. The fun comes when it feels like we are on a level playing field. With enough slider-tweaking, I think this can be achieved, but then if I start winning a lot, I wonder if maybe the sliders are set in my favor and that's where the wins are coming from. In any case, the human always has the advantage in recruiting or free agency or the draft. Madden has yet to come with good enough draft AI that a stud QB won't fall or you can't just trade up and grab him. You have to consciously play with house rules to make it more of a fair fight.

That's were FOF multiplayer comes in. There's no AI, just other thinking owners. It feels like if you outsmart them within the boundaries of fair play, then the win is legitimate and has no asterisk next to it. Obviously, cthomer routinely outsmarts me in FOF, so I'm getting more of a challenge than I am apparently up to. Maybe I should tweak that AI slider down a bit... :p

On topic, sort of. No surprise here:

NEW YORK -- Bill Romanowski (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=1787) used steroids and human growth hormone supplied by Victor Conte, the former NFL linebacker tells CBS' "60 Minutes" in an interview to be broadcast Sunday.

Like the rest of the world didn't already know this. He goes on to say that he started taking then in 2001......right? Like I believe that.

Well, to me, the toughest part is finding the thin line between where cheating starts and outsmarting others ends. There's always a vague grey area, well, at least most of the time.

For example, when I first heard of the limited houses rule in Monopoly (the number of houses per game is fixed at around 30 I believe), I figured it would be smart to make sure to buy houses and eventually don't promote them to hotels, but stick at 3 houses, at which figure they are worth the most per spent dollar. Others could call that cheating, as you're purposely staying away from upgrades and you're keeping others away from the ability to build.

That's not cheating, that's using the rules to your advantage, a rule that all players know(or should know).

Nice post COug.

I really don't have a lot to add other than I feel the same way. I fail to see what you have really gained by cheating in any of these games. Like you said by cheating you are taking away the things that are supposed to make the game fun. I don't get it either.

I don't do multiplayer anything, and what I do with FOFC in the privacy of my own bedroom is none of your business :cool:, so speaking hypothetically, I would think that cheaters are able to convince themselves that a cheating win is just a win. OJ managed to convince himself he didn't kill anybody, didn't he? Or, a cheater can justify a cheating win in a number of ways. We're capable of justifying, minimizing, or completley writing off a number of things in our minds which others would find to be completely ridiculous. See Gmac's response. To him, not only is that not a cheat, but he probably pats himself on the back for being smart enough to think of that way to "tweak" the system and gain a competitive advantage over the rest of the owners.

The reason that the FastFL case got me so angry was that people who cheat in online leagues are not just reaping the benefit for themselves...they're hurting everyone associated with that league. That kind of callous act just doesn't go over well with me at all. If you want to cheat a game, go do it on your own time. Once you do it in an MP environment, you've basically wasted the time of everyone you've been competing against. It's rude and selfish.

The cheating thing I just don't understand as well. That being said I do have a group of friends I simply can't play certain kinds of games with (board, card, etc.) because the competitiveness spills over into either constant cheating or a level of vigilance so absurd it's no longer much fun. We play basketball or football once a week, and although the competition is just as heated, there's never some shamefully crappy moment where everyone realizes a good friend is a bastard. Thinking games, the sort of strategic battle of wits we see in text-sim MP, seem to be where these sorts of problems are most prevalent, and it doesn't help in this case that there is little openness of the kind that allows you to judge your opponents' character or intentions. I've got the same lack of understanding you do ultimately, but it does seem to be a problem aggravated by the particular sort of game and circumstances found in MP text-sims. I think it's seductive in these largely anonymous arenas for people to do things they might not otherwise do for the opportunity to cultivate some sort of lauded FOF genius persona. Pretty silly obviously that someone would become so obsessed with cultivating this "semi-real" persona that they would stoop to anything, but considering the company (I say this with full self-consciousness of deep reservoirs of dorkitude), it's a little less silly and not entirely surprising I suppose.

You guys obviously haven't worked with salesmen much. Part of the thrill is getting away with it. That's why cheaters do it. The win is secondary. Think of it this way Coug et. al.

If a cheater doesn't get caught, he wins. It isn't about winning the league or winning the game. It is about winning the league or winning the game and not getting caught.

Another reason is that it is human nature to want to win. Can you name one person who wants to and enjoys losing? So, if you aren't doing well, there is a natural temptation to want to win. Those of us who value the competition can easily reject that temptation. However, those who see it as 'just a game' are much easier to draw in. If you don't value the challenge of 'doing things the hard way' then taking the shortcut is no biggie.

Why do people cheat on tests in school? To get something without working for it, and for the excitement of getting away with it. This seems pretty obvious to me. I'm not sure why so many are in the 'I don't get it' camp.

Buzzbee's a cheater! :eek:

Buzzbee's a cheater! :eek:
LOL. I should have suspected I'd get that kind of response. The only time I'll cheat is to finally beat Rochester!!!

Never!

Actually, I give you a good shot this season. My three best run-defenders all went down since our last meeting. :(

Why do people cheat on tests in school? To get something without working for it, and for the excitement of getting away with it. This seems pretty obvious to me. I'm not sure why so many are in the 'I don't get it' camp.

I think people are just drawing it out a little further when they "don't get it." Obviously, they're cheating to win, but there's something missing in that win that brings the satisfaction with it for a lot of us. I get that they're cheating to win, I even understand the thrill associated with getting away with something, but I don't "get" consistently cheating in multiple leagues where there is nothing at stake but your own enjoyment. Any single-player career I start where I feel like I have exploited the game in some way, or even flat cheated (saved and reloaded), is a career I can't continue with for very long. All my most enjoyable dynasties have been rocky FM games where my team is terrible, and we barely avoid relegation or something, but there's a feeling of accomplishment in that I didn't do something shady just to ensure a cheapened victory. And then if something good comes, it's that much better. I get why they're doing it, it just doesn't appeal to me, different strokes I guess.

MalcPow, you and I are on the exact same page with this.

Buzz, cheating on a test has a different motivation, because the "reward" is passing or getting a higher grade. It's the guy who cheats in a game that I can't fathom. Do they sit back at the end of the day and giggle to themselves, "Yeah, I sure hosed those guys...they must think since my team is good I'm smart!"

MalcPow, you and I are on the exact same page with this.

Buzz, cheating on a test has a different motivation, because the "reward" is passing or getting a higher grade. It's the guy who cheats in a game that I can't fathom. Do they sit back at the end of the day and giggle to themselves, "Yeah, I sure hosed those guys...they must think since my team is good I'm smart!"
Perhaps the "I know something you don't know" syndrome?

I went to college with guy who was very smart, and if he applied himself could have graduated with very good grades. If he spent half as much time studying as he did trying to figure out ways around the system, he would have graduated with honor. Instead, he skated along, barely staying in school. Why? Doing things the right way was boring. It was more exciting to figure out that if you don't go to physics lab you get an incomplete. If you get an incomplete, it doesn't affect your GPA. If his physics lab grade isn't counted, his GPA is good enough to keep him in school for one more quarter. The reward was the thrill itself.

Why do it in an online league? Competition. You are competitive right? So are cheaters. If they weren't they wouldn't cheat. The difference is that for you the reward is tainted if it isn't obtained fairly. For them, it apparently isn't.

You might could even draw a parallel with morals. Someone with high moral character most likely wouldn't keep money from a lost wallet they found. Someone without morals might see it as a little bit of justice or perhaps serendipity. A cheater might be somewhat like the thief that keeps the money. I didn't earn it, but here it is so I'll take it.

You might also view it from the opposite perspective. If it is 'only' a game or a competition, then where is the real penalty for cheating? Have either of the two 'cheaters' you referenced had any serious repercussions for being caught?

If for some inexplicable reason I were to cheat in IHOF and get kicked out, I'd probably be depressed for months. I would lose a large chunk of what I value. Relationships here and at IHOF, a hobby I enjoy, and quite a bit of invested time. There is no reward worth that risk. For others, the 'league' or the 'game' may not be that important. Hmmm...there might be something. If the game isn't important to the player, getting caught might not be much of a risk. At the other extreme, if the game is too important the reward of cheating may outwiegh the risk of getting caught.


Sorry for the long, jumbled ramble. I'm kinda just tossing out thoughts as they come to me, hence the lack of a clear point.