First let me say that I think there have been terrible failures in the hurricane relief effort both at the state (La.) and national level. I think Gov. Blanco has been a walking disaster and that the federal effort -- led by the president -- has been too little too late. This disaster, including the urban terrorism, had all been foreseen. It was not a surprise to many experts. But I want to address another issue.

That issue is the attempt by Jesse Jackson and others including Congressional black caucus members to make this a racial issue. My opinion is that those crying racism are themselves racists of the highest order.

This is a regional disaster of unprecedented proportions. Although the tv cameras are focused on New Orleans and the mainly poor black hurricane victims remaining in the city, New Orleans is not the only place affected. Many areas in rural southeastern Louisiana are just as devastated and have not seen the first helicopter or soldier or Red Cross or homeland security agent. They are fending for themselves. And there is a monumental disaster on the Mississippi Gulf coast. The cameras are focusing on New Orleans, but the disaster is far greater than New Orleans. And in fact New Orleans is receiving and has been receiving since the disaster the lion's share of the relief effort.

This lion's share has been too little and too late, but there is nothing racist about the relief effort and its failures. And for Jackson and others to play the race card here is deplorable. I think it is too bad that no political figure on the national level is willing to stand up to the racists who are yelling racism.

I also think it will be time in Louisiana after this crisis is over to take a hard look at the culture of dependency that has developed in poor black communities in Louisiana. I think the state and black leaders across the state need to take strong measures to end that culture of dependency.

Finally a word about levee repair funds. The idea circulating joyfully among the Bush-haters is that cuts in levee repair funds contributed directly to the failure of the levees. An editorial cartoon making that connection ran in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and btw, in the Gannett-owned Monroe La. paper among others today. But that connection is pure bullshit. A lie. Everyone knew the system could not withstand a cat 4 or 5 hurricane, and levee repair funds had nothing to do with upgrading the system. If the Bush-haters want to criticize Bush about the relief effort, I think that is fair game and I would agree. They don't need to try to concoct a lie about levee repair funds.

This was a disaster waiting to happen, and all the experts knew it. Racism had nothing to do with it. And a few million in levee repair funds had nothing to do with it.

Isn't this just old hat for Jesse? It seems like he is always playing the race card, so it not really a suprise to see him play it here.

I'm having trouble understanding the whole race issue. Between Jackson and Kanye West, is this seriously a point of view some blacks have? Maybe being born and raised in New Hampshire, where there is no racial tension, makes it more difficult for me to understand why some black people are so quick to divide what I see as a whole?

It really is sad that it's always a race issue. Gimme a break already! What about the urban and rural whites, asians, hispanics that have also been affected and bore the brunt across the 100,000 square mile area? They havent gotten diddly squat yet or have heard anything from anybody. Their world was turned upside down too.

you could see the race issue coming since the first day...once we realized the vast majority of the victims were non-caucasian.

I think it's obviously more of a money/poverty in reguards to race issue. Which is a whole other debate outside of Katrina.

I do find it interesting that today FOX seems to be focusing on a large group of vietmanese (sp?) people at the convention center today. They keep showing them when they show the convention center now, like they are trying to show it is not just black people.

I agree JW. I thought Kanye West was waaaay out of line for trying to turn the NBC telethon into a political forum - now is not the time to start in with political attacks on the President and pulling the racism card. Same thing with Jesse Jackson.

There will be plenty of time in the coming months to analyze this disaster and the response by all levels of government, but now is not the time. Now is the time to focus on what can we do to improve the situation.

While there will be arguments that can be made on how various media outlets have portrayed this disaster, and while there will be real political discussions about why, when this disaster was predicted pretty much as it's played out, there wasn't better preparedness, and while I have no love for President Bush and his compatriots, the suggestion that the slow federal response was due to racism on the part of this adminstration is mind-bogglingly stupid and extremely counter-productive for those trying to make that point.

I think the government's (state and federal) response has been very poor. All of the problems they are having now were anticipated.

The reason we see poor blacks suffering is the news crews are in New Orleans, a very poor city with a very large black population. If the media was in St. Bernard, Plaquemines parish, or even the I610-I10 split near where I grew up, we would see a very different group suffering - wealthier and more ethnically diverse.

That said, there are still significant problems with race in gulf coast and other parts of the country. I have read some of the local messageboards trying to get very specific news on different parts of the city. Over the past several days, the number of racist posts has increased dramatically. Several are clearly from locals, but several are clearly from outsiders who are taking advantage of this situation to promote their own agenda.

I'm having trouble understanding the whole race issue. Between Jackson and Kanye West, is this seriously a point of view some blacks have? Maybe being born and raised in New Hampshire, where there is no racial tension, makes it more difficult for me to understand why some black people are so quick to divide what I see as a whole?
Are there black people even in New Hampshire? ;)

SI

Here's a clip of Kanye's idiocy, btw...

http://home.comcast.net/~jeeberd2/24420044548.wmv

Nope. Bout 3 out of 1000(I think) at my high school.

Are there black people even in New Hampshire? ;)

SI

In 2000, we had 9,035 out of 1,235,786 residents (0.7%).

Louisiana had 1,451,944 out of 4,468,976 residents (32.5%).

New Orleans is 67.3% black and 1.5% Vietnamese (3rd-largest minority, behind white - 26.6% - and hispanic - 3.1%).

Are there black people even in New Hampshire? ;)

SI

New Hampshire is still a state??

Here's a clip of Kanye's idiocy, btw...

http://home.comcast.net/~jeeberd2/24420044548.wmv

HAHAHA. It took me a minute, seeing Tucker and Myers there, and realizing this isn't some sort of comedy clip. Or is it??? Is he really serious or is this a spoof? If it's serious, does this West guy have a mental disability?

Who the hell is Kayne? When did he become someone I'm supposed to have heard of?

The only Kayne I'd ever heard of before was a Big Red Machine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090300165.html

Kanye West's Torrent of Criticism, Live on NBC

By Lisa de Moraes

Saturday, September 3, 2005; Page C01

Why We Love Live Television, Reason No. 137:

NBC's levee broke and Kanye West flooded through with a tear about the federal response in New Orleans during the network's live concert fundraiser for victims of Hurricane Katrina last night.

The rapper was among the celebs and singers participating in the one-hour special, produced by NBC News and run on the NBC broadcast network, as well as MSNBC and CNBC, because, hey, the numbers couldn't be any worse than usual on a Friday night and hopefully they'd raise a chunk of change for a good cause, the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund.

Among the performers, Faith Hill sang "There Will Come a Time," which included the lyrics, "The darkness will be gone, the weak shall be strong. Hold on to your faith." Aaron Neville performed Randy Newman's "Louisiana 1927" with its chorus: "They're trying to wash us away, they're trying to wash us away."

West was not scheduled to perform; he was one of the blah, blah, blahers, who would read from scripts prepared by the network about the impact of Katrina on southern Louisiana and Mississippi.

West and Mike Myers had been paired up to appear about halfway through the show. Their assignment: Take turns reading a script describing the breach in the levees around New Orleans.

Myers: The landscape of the city has changed dramatically, tragically and perhaps irreversibly. There is now over 25 feet of water where there was once city streets and thriving neighborhoods.

(Myers throws to West, who looked extremely nervous in his super-preppy designer rugby shirt and white pants, which is not like the arrogant West and which, in retrospect, should have been a tip-off.)

West: I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family, it says, "They're looting." You see a white family, it says, "They're looking for food." And, you know, it's been five days [waiting for federal help] because most of the people are black. And even for me to complain about it, I would be a hypocrite because I've tried to turn away from the TV because it's too hard to watch. I've even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I'm calling my business manager right now to see what is the biggest amount I can give, and just to imagine if I was down there, and those are my people down there. So anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help -- with the way America is set up to help the poor, the black people, the less well-off, as slow as possible. I mean, the Red Cross is doing everything they can. We already realize a lot of people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way -- and they've given them permission to go down and shoot us!

(West throws back to Myers, who is looking like a guy who stopped on the tarmac to tie his shoe and got hit in the back with the 8:30 to La Guardia.)

Myers: And subtle, but in many ways even more profoundly devastating, is the lasting damage to the survivors' will to rebuild and remain in the area. The destruction of the spirit of the people of southern Louisiana and Mississippi may end up being the most tragic loss of all.

(And, because Myers is apparently as dumb as his Alfalfa hair, he throws it back to West.)

West: George Bush doesn't care about black people!

(Back to Myers, now looking like the 8:30 to La Guardia turned around and caught him square between the eyes.)

Myers: Please call . . .

At which point someone at NBC News finally regained control of the joystick and cut over to Chris Tucker, who started right in with more scripted blah, blah, blah.

"Tonight's telecast was a live television event wrought with emotion," parent company NBC Universal said in a statement issued to the Reporters Who Cover Television after the broadcast.

"Kanye West departed from the scripted comments that were prepared for him, and his opinions in no way represent the views of the networks. It would be most unfortunate if the efforts of the artists who participated tonight and the generosity of millions of Americans who are helping those in need are overshadowed by one person's opinion."

West's comments would be cut from the West Coast feed, an NBC spokeswoman told The TV Column. (The Associated Press later reported that only his comment about the president was edited out.) The show was live on the East Coast with a several-second delay; someone with his finger on a button was keeping an ear peeled in case someone uttered an obscenity but did not realize that West had gone off-script, the spokeswoman said.

(West throws back to Myers, who is looking like a guy who stopped on the tarmac to tie his shoe and got hit in the back with the 8:30 to La Guardia.)

(Back to Myers, now looking like the 8:30 to La Guardia turned around and caught him square between the eyes.)
Ok, that's just too funny.

SI

He'll probably sell a ton more albums now.

Am I misreading his comments - or did Kanye West say himself that he'd first thought about spending his money shopping until appearing on the telethon? To each his own, and he surely has to take care of himself and his family, but it seems slightly hypocritical to say the government doesn't care about blacks, and is taking its own sweet time in helping out the poor when he himself has chosen not to donate at that particular time.

Good ol Jesse "getting rich off of racism" Jackson. Do I think the horrible response time was race motivated? Um, no reason to believe that yet. Is it possible? I guess. My point is that this idiot should be spending some of the money he's made to help those people in peril. Get supplies in there... rent some boats and hire some people to go look for survivors. It isn't time to figure out why it took so long... get to helping you jackass!

Finally a word about levee repair funds. The idea circulating joyfully among the Bush-haters is that cuts in levee repair funds contributed directly to the failure of the levees. An editorial cartoon making that connection ran in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and btw, in the Gannett-owned Monroe La. paper among others today. But that connection is pure bullshit. A lie. Everyone knew the system could not withstand a cat 4 or 5 hurricane, and levee repair funds had nothing to do with upgrading the system. If the Bush-haters want to criticize Bush about the relief effort, I think that is fair game and I would agree. They don't need to try to concoct a lie about levee repair funds.
From what I hear, the levees were designed to withstand a direct hit from a cat 3 hurricane. NOLA was hit by the weak side of a cat 4 hurricane, and the levees should have stopped it as designed.

I'm not one to get into racist explanations for things, I think this is more just plain incompetance, but the recent incident with the rich folks from the hotel getting to the front of the line at the Superdome evactuation, and the Red Cross being denied entry into the city, and with helicopter operations being suspended after taking gunfire, it makes me wonder what kind of rescue and relief operations would be taking place if were rich white folks instead of poor black folks. Not as any overt decision, but just a subconscious one.

From what I hear, the levees were designed to withstand a direct hit from a cat 3 hurricane. NOLA was hit by the weak side of a cat 4 hurricane, and the levees should have stopped it as designed.

I'm not one to get into racist explanations for things, I think this is more just plain incompetance, but the recent incident with the rich folks from the hotel getting to the front of the line at the Superdome evactuation, and the Red Cross being denied entry into the city, and with helicopter operations being suspended after taking gunfire, it makes me wonder what kind of rescue and relief operations would be taking place if were rich white folks instead of poor black folks. Not as any overt decision, but just a subconscious one.

I repeat that it is racists who are suggesting that this is a racial issue, conscious or subconscious. The mayor of New Orleans who ordered those 'rich folks from the hotel' to the front of the evacuation line is black. His comment on the race issue was, "This is not a race issue, it is a class issue, there are some poor white people but the overwhelming majority of poor in NO are black." Is it racism that has prevented state or federal officials from reaching rural Plaquemines Parish? It is a very difficult situation, and there are many failures, but imho anyone playing or accepting the race card in this matter is just that -- a racist.

As for the levee, do we really want to get into the question of who cut levee funding and when? Hint: Bush wasn't the first to do it. The vulnerability of New Orleans has been well known for decades, and no administration, Democrat or Republican, has done anything to help. As for the city being hit by the weak side of a cat 4, the flooding was predicted from just such a storm, driving tidal surge water up the river and into lakes, with the wind from backside then driving the water from the lake southward onto the levees. BTW, there is some controversy today that you probably will never hear on the national media regarding two things: a barge breaking its moorings and hitting the levee (concrete portions, not earthen), and a break at an area that had been under repair by the Corps of Engineers. One break occurred at one of the newest portions of the levee, btw. It is simply Bush-hating to suggest that a cut in levee repair funds led to the flooding. Those funds were insignificant. When someone shows me that a breach occurred because a specific defect in the levee was not repaired due to the most recent cut in federal levee funding, then I will listen to the Bush-haters on this issue.

From what I hear, the levees were designed to withstand a direct hit from a cat 3 hurricane. NOLA was hit by the weak side of a cat 4 hurricane, and the levees should have stopped it as designed.

This is a bit off-topic for this thread, but it follows from your comment. I suspect that the catagorization of hurricanes is going to change a bit after this storm. Pressure is probably much more important than wind speed. 12-18 hours before landfall, Katrina was the 4th strongest hurricane ever observed in the Atlantic tropical basin. As a result of the extremely low pressure, a massive storm surge built up. the storm surge does not immediately vanish when the wind speed drops. Basically, a lot of things are correllated with each other - wind speed and pressure, wind speed and surge, pressure and surge, size of the eye and wind speed, etc but some are more tightly coupled than others. In this case you had cat 3/4 winds, but a cat 4/5 storm surge. It was the storm surge that lead to the massive flooding.

And the worst case scenario for flooding is for a hurricane to pass just east of the city.

Here is the initial assessment from the Corp of Engineers. It indicates that the storm surve over the levees gouged out the breaches. So in other words the levee system was not designed to withstand the surge that it faced.

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print075987.html

Times-Picayune

Thursday, September 01, 2005

Surge, breach and a 26-foot-deep gouge
8:32 p.m.

By Mark Schleifstein
Staff writer

The initial wave of storm surge that poured over the concrete wall of the 17th Street Canal as Hurricane Katrina passed New Orleans dug a 26-foot-deep gouge on the other side, resulting in the failure of several wall panels and the flooding of much of the city, an Army Corps of Engineers official said Thursday.

Al Naomi, project manager for the east bank Lake Pontchartrain hurricane levee system, said the high water that the strong Category 4 storm pushed into the lake overwhelmed the levee’s design when the lake backed up into the canal.

“They were designed to withstand a surge for a Category 3 or less storm,” Naomi said. “You might have had one or two feet of water pouring away over the top of the wall, cutting away at the earth below it, and as that happened, the walls began to collapse.

“When that occurred, there was no way to get water out of the city. Those walls are basically there, or they’re not.”

Naomi said corps engineers think the same thing happened along the London Avenue canal in Gentilly and along segments of the Inner Harbor Navigation Channel that gave way and flooded Chalmette.

“They’re pretty similar walls at that area, in the pictures we looked at,” he said. “The floodwalls were collapsed.”

Naomi said there was no way officials could have done anything about the collapses during the storm, even if they had become immediately aware of them.

“You can’t go out there in the middle of a hurricane and put your finger in the dike,” he said.

“Now the task is to close the gap so you can start pumping the city out. You can’t pump until they’re closed.”

Boh Bros. Construction Co. has begun installing metal sheet piling along the Old Hammond Highway bridge over the 17th Street Canal to keep lake water from backing up into the canal. State Transportation and Development Secretary Johnny Bradberry said the job will be complete by Friday afternoon.

A similar dam might be installed at the lake end of the London Avenue Canal, Naomi said.

Workers also are putting huge sandbags into the 17th Street Canal breach in an effort to fill the scour hole. They hope to complete the plugging of the gap by Saturday.

The corps and the New Orleans Sewerage & Water Board are evaluating each of the city’s drainage pumping stations and fixing those that aren’t working properly.

“We’re working very closely with the New Orleans Sewerage and Water Board and have identified pump stations they have prioritized to get in service quickly,” said Walter Baumy, chief of the engineering division of the corps in New Orleans. “We’re working with them to get those stations dry so they can get those operations of getting stations ready to pump underway.”

Metairie resident Thomas Jackson, vice president of the engineering consulting firm DMJM Harris-AECOM, which works closely with the New Orleans branch of the corps, said another major obstacle will be reactivating the S&WB power station near Claiborne Avenue at the Jefferson Parish line. It provides juice to about 60 percent of all New Orleans drainage pumping stations.

“Unless and until they get the power generation station going there, they won’t run period,” he said.

But before the huge pumps at the southern end of the 17th Street, or other canals, can be turned on full blast, Naomi said engineers must inspect the canal levees and walls.

“We want to make sure that when we turn them on, that the force of the water being pumped out doesn’t do something to weaken the walls and collapse them,” he said.

Water is normally in the canal at a height of 1 to 2 feet above sea level, the same height as the top of Lake Pontchartrain, as they’re designed to drain water into the lake. And pumping the floodwater out of neighborhoods into canals will add another two feet to the canal height, he said.

But the streets below average 5 feet below sea level. If another levee wall breaks, even with the lake back to a normal level, water will again pour into the city, Naomi said.

Naomi said that in addition to the plans, announced on Wednesday, to cut levees surrounding the city, the corps is considering bringing in additional pumps and other equipment to suck water out.

Naomi said the deepest water in the area flooded by the 17th Street and London Avenue canals was in the Lakeview, Pontchartrain Shores and Pontchartrain Gardens neighborhoods. In the lowest spots, the water reached 20 feet deep, or five feet above sea level.

He said additional rainfall in coming days is a relatively minor threat, considering the amount of water already in the city. The water level is steadily falling in the city, he said, and will continue until it reaches the level of the breaks being made in the levees.

“Today, the lake is at 2.1 feet, almost normal stage, and water is flowing out through the gaps,” he said Thursday at 8 a.m. “It is going down. “There’s no way it can go up again.”

Naomi said the levees failed because they weren’t designed for a hurricane as strong as Katrina.

“This is an extreme event that the system could not handle,” he said. “It was designed for a Category 3 hurricane or less, and it has protected us from those for a while.

“But there’s no way we could have this type of event without some type of failure,” he said. “It’s going to stress the system tremendously and you should not be surprised with failures. When you put the physical properties of the concrete and steel walls built on the canal under this kind of stress, there’s going to be a catastrophe.”

(Washington correspondent John McQuaid contributed to this report.
(Mark Schleifstein may be reached at [email protected])

Jesse Jackson can't see past the color of anyone's skin. He's not a racist, but he is a master of suggestion and innuendo...as long as it gets him on TV.

I don't think Jesse Jackson should still be considered front page news. His only true quality that he still possesses is his ability to create controversy and division. He's a messenger who's message was needed in the 1980's. We got the memo then, thanks, now goodbye.

Jesse Jackson has as much credibility as Michael Jackson.

I don't know who this Kayne West guy is, other than that he is a rapper, but to turn a telethon into your own public forum, and potentially turn people off from donating money is in VERY poor taste. But as said before, he was probably only there to boost his CD sales or whatever.

It was a classless move, a time of providing your talents and heart to raise money for the victims, not a personal forum. Now is not the time to play the blame game, escp. when your trying to raise support from citizens.

As for West, he is pretty "Bling Bling".

Also, I heard on the radio yesterday that Britney Spears just wrote on her website, "I hope everyone is ok", and thats it.

I don't know who this Kayne West guy is, other than that he is a rapper, but to turn a telethon into your own public forum, and potentially turn people off from donating money is in VERY poor taste. But as said before, he was probably only there to boost his CD sales or whatever.

People were on his jock well before this - especially the mainstream pop music media - so it's not like he needed the telathon to do that. The retards he put him on there were dumb, because if they'd ever heard his music - they knew what he thought of the President - and KNOW that he's prone to open his mouth and say something outlandish or downright stupid.

So blame the network for putting him on TV and giving him a forum. He didn't do anything out of the ordinary for himself, that's for sure.

Don't forget this incident with Jackson from yesterday. His bus came into town and the stranded started surrounding it. What did that dipshit do? He kept on going so he could make a grandstanding announcement. How about this worthless scum of a human being give up his bus so people get out? Oh that's right, even though the mayor called for every bus to come pick up people, Jackson and his entourage were exempt.

People were on his jock well before this - especially the mainstream pop music media - so it's not like he needed the telathon to do that. The retards he put him on there were dumb, because if they'd ever heard his music - they knew what he thought of the President - and KNOW that he's prone to open his mouth and say something outlandish or downright stupid.

So blame the network for putting him on TV and giving him a forum. He didn't do anything out of the ordinary for himself, that's for sure.
To me, it's outrageous to suggest that the network should get all the blame for this. Why they chose Kanye West, I don't know. Maybe he asked to be there, and they were trying to accomodate people whom they thought actually gave a damn about the situation instead of wanting to stand on a papier-mache soapbox. Perhaps whoever booked him was ignorant of West's music - I sure would be, as I've never heard it - but his lack of mental capacity would not get in the way of him reading a script. The network bookers' only crime was actually having faith that somebody could push their agenda aside long enough to not stand in the way of true compassion.

There will be people who will pull some donations back because of this, and that's a fucking shame. To blame the network for having a little faith in human beings shows just how little we expect people to do the right thing (or at least avoid doing the wrong thing).

People were on his jock well before this - especially the mainstream pop music media - so it's not like he needed the telathon to do that. The retards he put him on there were dumb, because if they'd ever heard his music - they knew what he thought of the President - and KNOW that he's prone to open his mouth and say something outlandish or downright stupid.

So blame the network for putting him on TV and giving him a forum. He didn't do anything out of the ordinary for himself, that's for sure.

Yeah it was dumb of them to put him on there, but I can almost guarantee whoever's decision it was has never or will never listen to his music. Probably just figured he's big in the pop music scene or whatever, and booked him to be on the show.

I repeat that it is racists who are suggesting that this is a racial issue, conscious or subconscious. The mayor of New Orleans who ordered those 'rich folks from the hotel' to the front of the evacuation line is black. His comment on the race issue was, "This is not a race issue, it is a class issue, there are some poor white people but the overwhelming majority of poor in NO are black."
Race and economic status are closerly correlated in NOLA, sometimes it's impossible to distinguish between the two. If the relief effort was so mismanaged because of economic class instead of race, I don't see how it is any better. And let's not forget that there are racists at the highest levels of our government. Bush's glib porch rebuilding comment was about Trent Lott, who was kicked out of his leadership position for suggesting a longing for segregation. Just as you can't call everything racially motivated, you can't call everything not racially motivated.

Race and economic status are closerly correlated in NOLA, sometimes it's impossible to distinguish between the two. If the relief effort was so mismanaged because of economic class instead of race, I don't see how it is any better. And let's not forget that there are racists at the highest levels of our government. Bush's glib porch rebuilding comment was about Trent Lott, who was kicked out of his leadership position for suggesting a longing for segregation. Just as you can't call everything racially motivated, you can't call everything not racially motivated.

Wow. Just wow.

Wow. Just wow.
Ditto. I got nothing.

Call me the worst person to say something in this thread. Worst because I don't know the facts...

Can I assume that the lower-class neighborhoods were on the north side of the town, right under the lake, close to the levees? It seems that the downtown, Bourbon St. and other touristy areas were closer to the gulf.

If that's the case, then OF COURSE the black community is going to be hit the hardest. It makes sense that the shittiest neighborhoods would be the most at risk for a possible natural disaster. "stick em out there close to danger so we don't have to be" is something that COULD be a reality. and when I say 'em' I am talking a lower class financially, not black or other minority.

so, can anybody give me to low down on how the city is set up? Is the rough part of town bordering the lake. Is the poverty line close to the levees that broke?

Oh, and Jackson is a dork.

Race and economic status are closerly correlated in NOLA, sometimes it's impossible to distinguish between the two. If the relief effort was so mismanaged because of economic class instead of race, I don't see how it is any better. And let's not forget that there are racists at the highest levels of our government. Bush's glib porch rebuilding comment was about Trent Lott, who was kicked out of his leadership position for suggesting a longing for segregation. Just as you can't call everything racially motivated, you can't call everything not racially motivated.

Bullshit. Pure bullshit. The racists are those who see everything through the prism of race. There is a lot more of that on the left than on the right. And the relief was mismanaged due to neither race nor class. Like I said, everyone who wants to imply racial bias in the relief effort is a racist. Are you seeing things through Jesse Jackson eyes?

This thread will not end well.

This thread will not end well.

Maybe not, but JW's correct.

This thread will not end well.

That's okay. I'm not going to argue with him any longer. I don't have time for his hateful politics. I'm through with it and have better things to do.

It's distressing that Jesse Jackson tries to play the race card when it isn't necessary. Kanye West is a blowhard moron who is further away from poor black people than than most non-black people. I saw an interview with him on MTV recently. He paused before every time he spoke, as if every last soul on Earth hinged on his response, but enough about him.

It sucks that non-racist whites have to bear the burden of "white guilt" for the horrific actions of their ancestors, but if you lived a country where most people look nothing like you, talk nothing like you, you'd probably make knee-jerk assumptions that it was racial..Most of the time you would be wrong, but shit still happens.

That's okay. I'm not going to argue with him any longer. I don't have time for his hateful politics. I'm through with it and have better things to do.

See, now I don't agree with the term "hateful" in regard to this issue. I think "divisive" is a more fair and fitting adjective.

Call me the worst person to say something in this thread. Worst because I don't know the facts...

Can I assume that the lower-class neighborhoods were on the north side of the town, right under the lake, close to the levees? It seems that the downtown, Bourbon St. and other touristy areas were closer to the gulf.

If that's the case, then OF COURSE the black community is going to be hit the hardest. It makes sense that the shittiest neighborhoods would be the most at risk for a possible natural disaster. "stick em out there close to danger so we don't have to be" is something that COULD be a reality. and when I say 'em' I am talking a lower class financially, not black or other minority.

so, can anybody give me to low down on how the city is set up? Is the rough part of town bordering the lake. Is the poverty line close to the levees that broke?

Oh, and Jackson is a dork.
No, the core of the 18th and 19th century city is along the two bends of the river (the Crescent City). In the early 20th century, the city drained its swamps and low-lying areas, not only to attract more workers but also to take in the influx of rural Southerners migrating from the farms to the cities. This happened in many cities, particularly Northern ones. Basically, the old money moved away from the core as transportation improved, leaving behind areas where immigrants could settle. Additionally, in cases like in N.O., the reclaimed lands offered cheap housing as well. N.O. with its easy access via the river and proximity to the largest concentration of former slave/sharecropper areas became an easy magnate for such population - much like NYC became the magnate for the Irish and later, the Italian and Eastern European immigrants.

Take a look at these maps http://www.ddc2000.com/products/samples/ss2k/53011010.htm particularly the one labeled "U.S. South: Average Number of Slaves Per Slaveholding 1860" about 2/3 down.

Can I assume that the lower-class neighborhoods were on the north side of the town, right under the lake, close to the levees? It seems that the downtown, Bourbon St. and other touristy areas were closer to the gulf.

If that's the case, then OF COURSE the black community is going to be hit the hardest. It makes sense that the shittiest neighborhoods would be the most at risk for a possible natural disaster. "stick em out there close to danger so we don't have to be" is something that COULD be a reality. and when I say 'em' I am talking a lower class financially, not black or other minority.

so, can anybody give me to low down on how the city is set up? Is the rough part of town bordering the lake. Is the poverty line close to the levees that broke?

Oh, and Jackson is a dork. The north west part of the city bordering the lake and the 17th St canal is middle to upper class. Its a big area, some areas are predomantly white, others are mixed. Hundreds to thousands of homes in this area are going to have insurance claims around or above $1M (house + property). The north-eastern parts are lower to middle class, and again a mix of races. This is a very broad discription though since this covers a very large part of the city.

You know, I am really getting pissed off at the "slow response time due to race/class" argument. Don't they know how long it take to do anything logistically on a decent scale? Here's an example:

Southern University has purchased four portable shower systems than can accommodate up to 80 people each at a time for use by Hurricane Katrina evacuees.


"The showers should be installed by Tuesday and they will provide opportunities for daily shower for all of our guest," said Interim President/Chancellor Edward R. Jackson.


"Installed by Tuesday". Now, I know there isn't the urgency in this as getting water but think about it. The storm was raging through the areas north of Louisiana on Tuesday. All roads in and around SE LA were closed. The airport was closed. Even if you had truckloads of water waiting to be delivered, it wasn't going to be until Wednesday till it gets there. The people inside the area couldn't get out (and certainly get around) and the people outside the area couldn't get in. Military troops can but it takes time to get them organized, equiped and transported - assuming you know what your orders are and where you are supposed to be.

So tell me why are people thinking everything should have materialized there on Tuesday or even Wednesday?

So tell me why are people thinking everything should have materialized there on Tuesday or even Wednesday?

Because it works. If you cry racism, the government still jumps. Why wouldn't they? It's not their money, and it's the path of least resistence.

At some point, it won't be politically wise to kowtow to professional race baiters like Jackson and Sharpton. At which point, you'll see that strategy disappear over time.

Now Plaquemines Parish (23% black), St. Tammany Parish (10%) and St. Bernard Parish (7%) were hit just as hard, if not harder, than New Orleans. Hancock County, Mississippi (7%) and Harrison County (21%) are pretty much destroyed. Guess who's getting the lion's share of the media attention?

This hurricane, when you count up all the people in the hardest hit areas, affected more whites than blacks. Try hearing that message when you listen to the media coverage.

Remember, CNN and their bretheren make money by sensationalizing the news, grabbing the interest of as many as possible. Here's a new angle on an old story.

The best thing we can do is to continue to support the relief effort as best we can, and hope that the guardsmen and the relief workers are getting to everyone, regardless of race.

And the worst case scenario for flooding is for a hurricane to pass just east of the city.
Mask, help me out here. It was my understanding that the worst case scenario for any type of storm surge is when the storm passes just WEST as opposed to east. This is because of the storm's counter-clockwise rotation, and the tendency of the eastern side of the storm to push the water forward while the west side pushes it away from the shoreline (in a northerly moving scenario). In fact, there was some relief when Katrina moved a little east and "missed" a direct hit on New Orleans (and it's also why southern Mississippi and Alabama have been obliterated).

If you know different, I'd love to find out why the worst-case scenario is to pass just east of the effected area.

Mask, help me out here. It was my understanding that the worst case scenario for any type of storm surge is when the storm passes just WEST as opposed to east. This is because of the storm's counter-clockwise rotation, and the tendency of the eastern side of the storm to push the water forward while the west side pushes it away from the shoreline (in a northerly moving scenario). In fact, there was some relief when Katrina moved a little east and "missed" a direct hit on New Orleans (and it's also why southern Mississippi and Alabama have been obliterated).

If you know different, I'd love to find out why the worst-case scenario is to pass just east of the effected area.

In the case of New Orleans, worst-case was just east, because the water was pushed into the river, then around into Lake Pontchartrain, then down over the levees, as the hurricane passed. East provided the most flooding.

Typically, as far as winds go, the northeast quadrant of a hurricane is the strongest. So for pure wind damage, passing just to the west of an area is worst case.

For storm surge, generally, being ahead of the northeast quadrant is worst case. That's why Hancock and Harrison counties in Mississippi had their shoreline removed. Then they got nailed with the worst of the winds.

The New Orleans case is almost unique. In most cases where there is specialized flooding, like Mobile, Alabama, it's because surge can funnel into an area through an inlet. So it's still worst case to pass close to the west. In Mobile's case, even being 60-80 miles from the hardest-hit areas wasn't enough to prevent heavy damage. Of course, Katrina was a huge storm in size, and the surge alone caused damage in parts of Florida as well.

In the case of New Orleans, worst-case was just east, because the water was pushed into the river, then around into Lake Pontchartrain, then down over the levees, as the hurricane passed. East provided the most flooding.
Ah, I forgot about New Orleans' unique topography. Makes sense to me.

The only reason Kanye 'stood up and spoke' is cause he has a new cd out, and this will get him lots of media face time... period.

Sorry I made some posts and ran. I know that is not good internet forum argument form. I actually had some grilling to do and football to watch, and I'm not really interested in a tit-for-tat argument anyway. Well, maybe the tit part.

A few more things.

There has been lots of discussion locally about responsibilities here. And since some think racism was involved, I think it is important to point out that the evacuation of New Orleans and immediate actions in the aftermath of the hurricane were the responsibility of Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin. Mayor Nagin is black. Governor Blanco is a liberal Democrat elected narrowly thanks in large part to the black vote. I do not think they bungled the evacuation and immediate relief actions due to racism. Perhaps I am wrong.

Here are a few facts. Here is a link to the hurricane evacuation plan for the state.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

Here are the governor's responsibilities.

"Governor:
a. Proclaim a State of Emergency.
b. Issue supplementary declarations and orders, as the situation
requires.
c. Authorize and direct the use of State government personnel and
other resources to deal with the emergency.
d. Authorize and direct the authorities of non-risk parishes to
coordinate the opening and operation of shelters with DSS in
conjunction with ARC, and to lend all possible assistance to the
evacuation and shelter effort.
e. Request Federal government assistance as needed."

Many in Louisiana think Gov. Blanco did not live up to her responsibilities.

Meanwhile, here is an excerpt from the evacuation plan.

"The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating."

Neither Mayor Nagin or Gov. Blanco organized any buses for evacuation before the hurricane even though buses were available. It would have been very difficult to pull off, though, considering the short time frame involved.

Here is a link to a picture of some of the school buses in New Orleans after the hurricane.

http://www.junkyardblog.net/images/NO-buses.jpg

Here is another link, to the story announcing the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans.

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print074564.html

"New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin called for a first-ever mandatory evacuation of the city this morning, saying that Hurricane Katrina’s devastating power may well create the sort of cataclysmic damage that residents have long worried that a killer storm could cause in a city that lies mostly below sea level.

“I wish I had better news, but we’re facing the storm most of us have feared,” said Nagin, flanked by city and state officials, including Gov. Kathleen Blanco. “This is very serious. This is going to be an unprecedented event. ”

Nagin said Katrina’s “awesome” winds are likely to create storm surges that overwhelm the city’s system of levees, causing water to pour into lower-lying areas. Blanco said the water could get as high as 20 feet in places.

The city has 30 boats at its disposal, the mayor said.

The governor also said that President Bush had telephoned shortly before the 9:30 a.m. press conference began. She said Bush said he was “very concerned about the storm’s impact” and urged Blanco and Nagin to order the evacuation."

A couple of things to note. Both Nagin and Blanco predicted the flooding the day before the hurricane struck.

Note also that President Bush called before the news conference to urge Blanco and Nagin to order the mandatory evacuation.

What does any of that have to do with racism? It isn't always about race.

I might also point out that the good people of devastated St. Bernard and Plaquemines parishes have received virtually no state or federal aid yet. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that many of them are white.

My opinion remains that the relief effort was bungled in the first days, primarily by Gov. Blanco, but with mistakes also made by Mayor Nagin, despite his great effort to get help to his city. I also think President Bush and other federal officials share in the blame. But I think it is absurd to argue that racism played a role in the decisions made by anyone involved in the relief effort.

The only reason Kanye 'stood up and spoke' is cause he has a new cd out, and this will get him lots of media face time... period.

Better not hope it backfires like it did the Dixie Chicks "stood up and spoke".

When it comes to politics, I wish more actors and musicians would "sit down and shut up".

Better not hope it backfires like it did the Dixie Chicks "stood up and spoke".
Consider his target audience compared to the Dixie Chicks' target audience.

http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/race_card.gif

Thanks to Buc for making it something that I can understand.

I really don't see why people are getting bent out of shape over this and making it seem as this is going to be a huge issue. I recall JoninMiddleGA predicting that this will be on the scale of what occured in the 60s. I don't think so This doesn't even come close to the division in the OJ Simpson trial.

So why is anyone surprised that Jesse Jackson sprung up? He always loves to stir up a controversial debate that is more often than not true. I really tire of these threads because people somehow think that Jesse Jackson is a representative of the feelings and attitudes of black people across the country. Believe me, he does not represent a majority of us,

If Colin Powell were to come out and say this, then I can see why you get bent out of shape because more people across the board tend to respect him, but Jesse Jackson has been doing this crap for decades.

And it also shouldn't surprise you that the media focuses on this issue. Of course they are. It makes headlines, makes for some ridiculous debates, sells newspapers, etc. If you watch any interviews with a majority of black Democrat leaders, you will see that they are trying to squelch this theory that is a race issue. In fact they are more angry with either FEMA and/or the governor of Louisiana. But of course, we would rather talk about Jesse Jackson who everyone knows is trying to get airtime for himself.

So why do you wonder that the media is focusing on New Orleans. Its the same theory, it makes for great news. More of a population than the other cities, more potential to lead to more controversial stories, etc. On 9/11, I don't remember seeing as many stories for the other two planes (one that hit the Pentagon, and one that the passengers took over). That's because the media tends to focus on where the most tragedy lies. This should not be a surprise. While I realize there are other areas that were hit much harder than New Orleans, the potential for tragedy was way great due to the amount of people. It seems to always be a numbers game.

Just like most of the problems Jesse Jackson gets involved with, this will slowly die as people lose interest. This always happens. I doubt you will even see many debates in this thread regarding Jesse Jackson.

That's okay. I'm not going to argue with him any longer. I don't have time for his hateful politics. I'm through with it and have better things to do.
JW, try not to be so closed minded. You're projecting Jesse Jackson's views on to me. All I said was that there are some people that are racist, and there are some things that are racially motivated, and people are shocked -- shocked! -- that I could say such a thing. Even up north here, all the black people I know feel racism, and most of the people in general that I know make racist comments fairly frequently. Guess what guys, racism DOES exist in this country to a large extent. We had presidential canditates running on segregation platforms just 40 years ago. It's obvious that most people think less about suffering Africans and Muslims than about suffering Europeans, it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself.

I really have no idea why the federal and even state response was so bad to this disaster. I'm not going to just dismiss something because Jesse Jackson says it. I'd bet on general incompetance over anything else, but who knows?

You know, I am really getting pissed off at the "slow response time due to race/class" argument. Don't they know how long it take to do anything logistically on a decent scale?...So tell me why are people thinking everything should have materialized there on Tuesday or even Wednesday?
Because according to the MSM:

As reports continued of famished and dehydrated people isolated across the Gulf Coast, angry questions were pressed about why the military has not been dropping food packets for them -- as was done in Afghanistan, Bosnia and in the aftermath of the Asian tsunami.

Bill Wattenburg, a consultant for the University of California Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and one of the designers of the earlier food drop programs, said that he has lobbied the administration and the military to immediately begin something similar. He said he was told that the military was prepared to begin, but that it was awaiting a request from FEMA.
Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck — a delay nearly certain to be investigated by Congress.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.
In these particular cases, it seems to me like the feds screwed up and that help could have been there earlier.

To me, it's outrageous to suggest that the network should get all the blame for this. Why they chose Kanye West, I don't know. Maybe he asked to be there, and they were trying to accomodate people whom they thought actually gave a damn about the situation instead of wanting to stand on a papier-mache soapbox. Perhaps whoever booked him was ignorant of West's music - I sure would be, as I've never heard it - but his lack of mental capacity would not get in the way of him reading a script. The network bookers' only crime was actually having faith that somebody could push their agenda aside long enough to not stand in the way of true compassion.

There will be people who will pull some donations back because of this, and that's a fucking shame. To blame the network for having a little faith in human beings shows just how little we expect people to do the right thing (or at least avoid doing the wrong thing).

No, I understand what you're saying. They figured he was prominent and that he could stick to the company line. I get it. He's popular and thought he'd "reach out" to a particular audience, given he's been featured in the media a lot because of his new CD and all that.

All I'm saying, is that anyone who knew what they were doing wouldn't have put him up there, because he's had a history of running his mouth, spewing whatever the heck he wants.

So while Kanye owns his words - and I am all but certain that it had NOTHING to do with selling CDs, he believes what he said - the network is accountable for putting him on there.

And if no one at NBC or whoever aired it has no one on staff that had listened to his music before, thus had no idea..well, that's part of a commentary on a whole different issue that I won't even broach because it's not topical.

But...yeah.

I completely get what you're saying though.

And if no one at NBC or whoever aired it has no one on staff that had listened to his music before, thus had no idea..well, that's part of a commentary on a whole different issue that I won't even broach because it's not topical.What...that NBC doesn't care about Black people? ;)

You know, I am really getting pissed off at the "slow response time due to race/class" argument. Don't they know how long it take to do anything logistically on a decent scale? Here's an example:


"Installed by Tuesday". Now, I know there isn't the urgency in this as getting water but think about it. The storm was raging through the areas north of Louisiana on Tuesday. All roads in and around SE LA were closed. The airport was closed. Even if you had truckloads of water waiting to be delivered, it wasn't going to be until Wednesday till it gets there. The people inside the area couldn't get out (and certainly get around) and the people outside the area couldn't get in. Military troops can but it takes time to get them organized, equiped and transported - assuming you know what your orders are and where you are supposed to be.

So tell me why are people thinking everything should have materialized there on Tuesday or even Wednesday?


While I agree that this is not a race/class issue, I don't agree that things couldn't have been done faster. Think about, the news crews were in there well before any help arrived. And they drove in. In fact, you will see reporters from FOX, CNN, MSNBC mention the fact that they don't understand why no one else could get there when they easily did. Houston was able to organize efforts to bus people out of the Astrodome and yep you guessed it, they drove in there. So how was Houston able to organize efforts in less time than FEMA.

As a sidebar, I must say that I was actually proud of a few reporters who are actually in New Orleans. For once, they are speaking about the events and not trying politicize the situation. I mean, I have really seen some genuine emotions coming out of these guys and it doesn't seem to matter whether I was watching FOX or CNN. It's too bad that they won't report in that no nonesense style in the near future.

Now let's compare this to other disasters. In most of the hurricanes in Florida, people tended to cluster in a various areas since most of the structures were damaged, yet help was to most of them in 48 hours by setting up various strategic help stations where people could travel or provided transportation too. And this is with blocked roads a lot of times. In New Orleans, they had two major clusters where people gathered which was the Convention Center and the Superdome. This should have been more of a slam dunk than the other scenario.

Even up north here, all the black people I know feel racism, and most of the people in general that I know make racist comments fairly frequently. ....it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself.




I have to say, this is some seriously messed up thought process.

I suggest you try meeting more people, you appear to have a very limited peer group.

I disagree entirely with you assertion that it is natural to do anything of the kind.

This post suggests, to me, that you have some serious race issues that you either don't see in yourself, or do and would rather try not to appear as you do. Either way, this post has more holes than a block of swiss at the national cheese-off.

Also, do you not believe that continually making racial comments leads one to BE a racist? Perhaps the people you know ought to try shelving the racist comments. IMO it could very well be their own comments painting their image of those around them, instead of those around them showing racism initially. Have you or those you know ever considered this?

I have to say, this is some seriously messed up thought process.

I suggest you try meeting more people, you appear to have a very limited peer group.

I disagree entirely with you assertion that it is natural to do anything of the kind.

This post suggests, to me, that you have some serious race issues that you either don't see in yourself, or do and would rather try not to appear as you do. Either way, this post has more holes than a block of swiss at the national cheese-off.

Also, do you not believe that continually making racial comments leads one to BE a racist? Perhaps the people you know ought to try shelving the racist comments. IMO it could very well be their own comments painting their image of those around them, instead of those around them showing racism initially. Have you or those you know ever considered this?
I hate to burst your bubble because you were really on a roll, but what I talked about is backed up by large amounts of scientific research. Open up any social psychology book and look up social catagorization, outgroup homegeneity effects, ingroup favoratism, and social identity theory.

EDIT: Is caring more for one's own group natural? Yes. Should we strive to be better than that? Yes. But you can't ignore its effects, we don't yet live in Utopia.

The white parish president of Jefferson Parish (just across the river from New Orleans) was just on Meet the Press. He broke down and cried while criticizing the lack of federal response. The majority of his constituents are white. This disaster and the failures in the relief effort have affected everyone in southeast Louisiana regardless of race. The good Cajun and other people of Plaquemines Parish are still without state or federal assistance today. It isn't about race, and the racists are those close-minded people who see everything in terms of race.

As for the failure of the response, I have to agree with Antmeister71. It could have been done much better. The first 72 hours were a diaster in itself. What could have been done? At the very least, soldiers could have been airlifted or trucked to the Superdome and Convention Center to establish 'safe' zones for those tens of thousands of people, and then water and emergency supplies could have been pushed to those safe zones. The zones could have been expanded from there. That is pretty much what the military did Friday after Gen. Honore took over the operation. It could have been done sooner.

Which leads to a major point that is being discussed in Louisiana. It was President Bush who Friday directed the military to take charge of the operation and ordered active duty troops in after witnessing the failures of the Louisiana state government, which was technically in charge. Gov. Blanco and the state failed miserably. It was also Bush who encouraged a mandatory evacuation Sunday. He did some things right. However, I think he sat too long while things developed without taking stronger control. Lives were lost during the week because no one from Bush down was willing to take firm control of the operation and do everything necessary to save lives. But the major failure was Gov. Kathleen Blanco. She was in charge of the effort for most of the week.

Holy ... wow.

As a fan of Kanye West's music .... I was offended by what he said enough. Actually seeing him saying it was horrendous. He was stuttering and sounded like a damn fool.

Wow, that .... wow.

I hate to burst your bubble because you were really on a roll, but what I talked about is backed up by large amounts of scientific research. Open up any social psychology book and look up social catagorization, outgroup homegeneity effects, ingroup favoratism, and social identity theory.
Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the "it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself". It's been proven again and again and again (and acutally makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary stand point if you think about it for a moment). It's sounds science.

It is important to remember, however, that it is not always the case and it's not saying that you can't care for those that don't resemble yourself. Genes and such are not determinative, just part of the mix.

Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the "it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself". It's been proven again and again and again (and acutally makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary stand point if you think about it for a moment). It's sounds science.

It is important to remember, however, that it is not always the case and it's not saying that you can't care for those that don't resemble yourself. Genes and such are not determinative, just part of the mix.

Holy shit. If I had realized that most of my money would be going to help out black folks instead of white folks, I wouldn't have made the largest contribution I've ever made to the Red Cross for disaster relief.

:rolleyes:

The only reason Kanye 'stood up and spoke' is cause he has a new cd out, and this will get him lots of media face time... period.
It seems Kanye became exactly what he supposedly "hated" in this NBC special. Whether or not this (and his whole persona) is motivated by the idea of selling albums isn't material (although it certainly plays well to his audience).

The end result of what West did was play to his target audience (and probably get more sales for Kanye) while pissing off a vast majority of potential donars watching NBC (and hurting the amount of money going to the poor in New Orleans - you know, "his people").

I think someone ought to do a quick study on the amount of money Kanye's outburst cost the telethon and ask if Kanye would be willing to replace that with his own personal cash.

Holy shit. If I had realized that most of my money would be going to help out black folks instead of white folks, I wouldn't have made the largest contribution I've ever made to the Red Cross for disaster relief.

:rolleyes: That's not what I said at all. Either you didn't read the post or have no understanding of evolutionary biology. I probably should have gone into more detail as to what I was trying to say, but it's Sunday morning, still haven't had the coffee yet. But if your above post is your interpretation of what I said, you're sadly mistaken.

May I recommend this book. It's fantastically well-written, pretty funny at times, based on very sound science, and provides an interesting perspective on a wide variety of topics. It addresses what I was trying to get across above very nicely and perhaps in a manner in which even you could understand.

It's called: "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" by Stephen Pinker

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0142003344/qid=1125844485/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8535135-7161700?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

So, HB, it seems you are saying that people and our government can get past these "subconscious biases" when providing for disaster relief. If that's the case, what's the point of this discussion?

Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the "it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself". It's been proven again and again and again (and acutally makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary stand point if you think about it for a moment). It's sounds science.

It is important to remember, however, that it is not always the case (Like when a big fucking hurricane rips apart one of the biggest and grandest cities in the USA.) and it's not saying that you can't care for those that don't resemble yourself. Genes and such are not determinative, just part of the mix.

Fixed it.

So, HB, it seems you are saying that people and our government can get past these "subconscious biases" when providing for disaster relief. If that's the case, what's the point of this discussion?
I was just supporting the theory Mr. Biggles pointed out and RenderR dismissed off hand. It's not an assumption. It's been proven over and over and over again. That was the only reason I chimed in here. Our evolutionary and genetic pre-dispotions can be (and most certainly are) overcome, but they do influence our decisions and reactions.

Again, this has nothing to do with this discussion of race and relief (as I don't think race is playing a role at all), but just the scientific soundness of the theory that Mr. Biggles pointed out.

I thought I was pretty clear in my original post when I said

"Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the 'it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself'."

Your judgement and timing for picking what of Mr Biggleworth to agree with and in what thread are...well....piss poor. :)

You are basically the newscaster who says, "Well, I won't comment on everything Jesse Jackson says, but I will say this. He is correct in stating that most black folks in New Orleans are black."

Fixed it.
Thanks for the fix, dude, but read my entire freaking post (all of them). Nothing I am discussing here has ANYTHING TO DO WITH the "big fucking hurricane rips apart one of the biggest and grandest cities in the USA"" at all. It was just about the science behind the theory.

I am just tryin' to give y'all some real book learnin'.
Again, I have said it once, and I will say it again "I do not believe race is at all factor in the relief effort." Man are you people dense sometimes.

You are basically the newscaster who says, "Well, I won't comment on everything Jesse Jackson says, but I will say this. He is correct in stating that most black folks in New Orleans are black." Not really. As I did comment on the issue at hand and have agreed with what JW said in his original post.

I guess, in some ways, yes my posts were a bit "off topic", but I am just trying to teach folks a little about something.

I know science frightens some of you.

Well Lordy be, thankee, masta.

"Stand back! I've read a pychology book about science! None of you blue-collar white folk can help. Only I! Pychology Science Book Guy can save the day!" :)

Well Lordy be, thankee, masta.

"Stand back! I've read a pychology book about science! None of you blue-collar white folk can help. Only I! Pychology Science Book Guy can save the day!" :)
Eh, I deserved that. That last comment was wholly unnecessary. My bad, lads.

I really don't see why people are getting bent out of shape over this and making it seem as this is going to be a huge issue. I recall JoninMiddleGA predicting that this will be on the scale of what occured in the 60s. I don't think so This doesn't even come close to the division in the OJ Simpson trial.

So why is anyone surprised that Jesse Jackson sprung up? He always loves to stir up a controversial debate that is more often than not true. I really tire of these threads because people somehow think that Jesse Jackson is a representative of the feelings and attitudes of black people across the country. Believe me, he does not represent a majority of us,

If Colin Powell were to come out and say this, then I can see why you get bent out of shape because more people across the board tend to respect him, but Jesse Jackson has been doing this crap for decades.

And it also shouldn't surprise you that the media focuses on this issue. Of course they are. It makes headlines, makes for some ridiculous debates, sells newspapers, etc. If you watch any interviews with a majority of black Democrat leaders, you will see that they are trying to squelch this theory that is a race issue. In fact they are more angry with either FEMA and/or the governor of Louisiana. But of course, we would rather talk about Jesse Jackson who everyone knows is trying to get airtime for himself.

So why do you wonder that the media is focusing on New Orleans. Its the same theory, it makes for great news. More of a population than the other cities, more potential to lead to more controversial stories, etc. On 9/11, I don't remember seeing as many stories for the other two planes (one that hit the Pentagon, and one that the passengers took over). That's because the media tends to focus on where the most tragedy lies. This should not be a surprise. While I realize there are other areas that were hit much harder than New Orleans, the potential for tragedy was way great due to the amount of people. It seems to always be a numbers game.

Just like most of the problems Jesse Jackson gets involved with, this will slowly die as people lose interest. This always happens. I doubt you will even much any debates in this thread.

Well Said!

Eh, I deserved that. That last comment was wholly unnecessary. My bad, lads.

I wasn't offended so no worries, I really just wanted to blast a college guy with the bookworm super hero line. :)

I wasn't offended so no worries, I really just wanted to blast a college guy with the bookworm super hero line. :)
Well, I'd still reccomend the book. It's well worth it.

P.S.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/1030-02.jpg

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Thanks to Buc for making it something that I can understand.
You're welcome, simplistic as it was. It was what I got a graduate degree in.

Antmeister: I understand. I still go back to late Monday as I was watching the wwltv coverage non-stop. At the time, no one knew the impending disaster that was waiting to strike (where 80% of the city got flooded). Monday would have been good time to get things moving but there were no such calls from the State, and if I recall, Nagin was trying to assess the situation. In all, my criticism lies with immense bureaucratic power of the federal govt which can makes what happened fully expected. We have given them too much power, centralizing too much resources and let the politicians run things based on agendas.

Well, I'd still reccomend the book. It's well worth it.

P.S.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/1030-02.jpg

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ah, so you're science-pych book teaches propaganda technique's as well. I really should be angry at Louisiana Tech for not offering this class. :)

You're welcome, simplistic as it was. It was what I got a graduate degree in.

I'm guessing that beats the Liberal Art degrees some others are spouting off about. :D

"Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the 'it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself'."

Skin color is a lousy way to divide people, at least on a genetic basis.

If it weren't for the fervent efforts of the professional race-baiters, it would never have occurred to me that this was a black hurricane and I was supposed to ignore its effects because the victims don't resemble me.

I would hope that nationalism is stronger than racism. But maybe what we're learning from the race-baiters is that it isn't. At least to them.

Here's an interesting test from the kind folks at Harvard. The race test can be fairly revealing.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/index.jsp

If it weren't for the fervent efforts of the professional race-baiters, it would never have occurred to me that this was a black hurricane and I was supposed to ignore its effects because the victims don't resemble me.
Only if one thinks the hurricane affected New Orleans and no where else.

It seems Kanye became exactly what he supposedly "hated" in this NBC special. Whether or not this (and his whole persona) is motivated by the idea of selling albums isn't material (although it certainly plays well to his audience).

The end result of what West did was play to his target audience (and probably get more sales for Kanye) while pissing off a vast majority of potential donars watching NBC (and hurting the amount of money going to the poor in New Orleans - you know, "his people").

I think someone ought to do a quick study on the amount of money Kanye's outburst cost the telethon and ask if Kanye would be willing to replace that with his own personal cash.

While I agree that Kanye West chose a poor time to express his feelings, I am confused by the "his audience" comment. There are a number of people across the board in terms of race that listens to his music, myself included. The songs that get the most play from him are mostly positive songs that are inspirational and even religious.

That is why he graced the front cover of Time magazine because he was talking about issues rather than singing about pimps and hoes. I mean "Jesus Walks" (one of his popular songs) is a universal song to those who listen to rap.

And I had no problem with him saying "his people" and neither should anyone else. He was simply indentifying with the people of New Orleans. How is this different when a Russian American immigrant identifies himself with the people of Kosovo as "my people" or whenever Iraqi-American identifies himself with the plight of the Iraqis as "my people". Is it different because he is identifying himself with black Americans? I mean he is one.

I am just more disappointed that he had to take that time to state his opinions at a time when they were trying to raise money. It was a bad mistake he made and one that seemed to be driven by his emotions since it did appear that he was visibly shaken with anger. But regardless he probably lost a lot more fans than he could ever gain, so I don't see as this helping any CD sales.

...In all, my criticism lies with immense bureaucratic power of the federal govt which can makes what happened fully expected. We have given them too much power, centralizing too much resources and let the politicians run things based on agendas.

Totally agree.

Ah, so you're science-pych book teaches propaganda technique's as well. I really should be angry at Louisiana Tech for not offering this class. :)
Perhaps you should be, as you bit on that whole thing: hook, line and sinker. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I hate to burst your bubble because you were really on a roll, but what I talked about is backed up by large amounts of scientific research. Open up any social psychology book and look up social catagorization, outgroup homegeneity effects, ingroup favoratism, and social identity theory.

EDIT: Is caring more for one's own group natural? Yes. Should we strive to be better than that? Yes. But you can't ignore its effects, we don't yet live in Utopia.

You are right about the science behind the idea, however, I wasn't talking scientificcal, I was assuming a more tolerant human approach.

My final paragraph still stands. From a decade of personal experience in a widely diverse peer group (US Navy) I can tell you that in the vast majority of situations that took on a "racist" reaction from one side or the other, the real racial difficulties came from those crying "racism" Not in fact from those they were accusing.

Your post states that YOUR peer group has issues with percieved racism. I'm simply trying to suggest it might be coming from that peer group, instead of from outside it. I still think you and your peers need to meet more people, diversify a bit, and perhaps your view might shift.

While I agree that Kanye West chose a poor time to express his feelings, I am confused by the "his audience" comment. There are a number of people across the board in terms of race that listens to his music, myself included. The songs that get the most play from him are mostly positive songs that are inspirational and even religious.

That is why he graced the front cover of Time magazine because he was talking about issues rather than singing about pimps and hoes. I mean "Jesus Walks" (one of his popular songs) is a universal song to those who listen to rap.

And I had no problem with him saying "his people" and neither should anyone else. He was simply indentifying with the people of New Orleans. How is this different when a Russian American immigrant identifies himself with the people of Kosovo as "my people" or whenever Iraqi-American identifies himself with the plight of the Iraqis as "my people". Is it different because he is identifying himself with black Americans? I mean he is one.

I am just more disappointed that he had to take that time to state his opinions at a time when they were trying to raise money. It was a bad mistake he made and one that seemed to be driven by his emotions since it did appear that he was visibly shaken with anger. But regardless he probably lost a lot more fans than he could ever gain, so I don't see as this helping any CD sales.


It's nice to see someone trying to see good in anyone. I applaud your optimism. Unfortunately in this case, IMO, your optimism is sorely misplaced.

You are right about the science behind the idea.
That's all I was defending.

The rest of you too my statements way too far, but I'm not surprised and I'm probably most at fault for it. Like Dutch said, the timing to engage in a thoughtful discussion about this aspect of evolutionary biology was "piss poor."

It's nice to see someone trying to see good in anyone. I applaud your optimism. Unfortunately in this case, IMO, your optimism is sorely misplaced.

Well in time we shall see. I don't think that his CD sells won't be anywhere near what is was before. And I could very well be wrong in regards to his reasoning, but it did seem to be that he was visibly upset and figured that this has to be his time to make a statement which was just in poor taste considering what he was there for.

And yeah, I am usually optimistic about some, but not all people. It is hard for me to be angry about someone who is highly religious and is trying to pass positive vibes through his music. I am not even religious, but it was something that I admired about his music. However it seems that he had some inner hatred that finally swelled to the top due to this tragedy.

West certainly has some crossover in his audience, but I don't think his outburst would hurt his sales. Still, it's certainly debatable on that front. The main point remains, though, and that's that West put his own agenda and personal wishes (bashing Bush) above the needs of the people in New Orleans. His comments certainly cost the red cross from a donation standpoint, not to mention the effort they've needed to spend to separate themselves from his comments. This has almost certainly hurt the goal of the Red cross getting help to people in need in New Orleans.

Plus, given how his dimeanor changed and how anxious he looked when Myers was talking, this was certainly something he rehearsed and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know going in that these comments would hurt the fundraising effort. In the end, it was a very selfish move by West.

...The main point remains, though, and that's that West put his own agenda and personal wishes (bashing Bush) above the needs of the people in New Orleans. His comments certainly cost the red cross from a donation standpoint, not to mention the effort they've needed to spend to separate themselves from his comments. This has almost certainly hurt the goal of the Red cross getting help to people in need in New Orleans...

I agree pretty much with this portion. He may have hurt some of the efforts. To what degree though, I am not sure. I am sure that people who wanted to donate will still donate regardless of what Kanye West said. I don't think he stopped people from giving because they didn't agree with his politics. They will just going to tune him out if he were to start his own relief efforts.

A little more about the slow federal response to the hurricane in Louisiana. And since it is from the Washington Post, it must be true:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680_pf.html

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

This is why many people in La. think Blanco is primarily to blame for the slow response. My belief is that in Blanco had asked Bush, Gen. Honore and federal troops could have been on the ground in New Orleans Tuesday instead of Friday. People were urging her to do so. Mayor Nagin of New Orleans says that when he complained to Bush, Bush sent Honore (and the troops). Also at least some La. National Guard units were not mobilized until after Katrina struck. Blanco did not order a full pre-hurricane mobilization and the La. Guard was not poised for the relief effort like the Mississippi and Alabama Guard for example.

What was she thinking, JW?

"Stand back! I've read a pychology book about science! None of you blue-collar white folk can help. Only I! Pychology Science Book Guy can save the day!" :)
I gotta say, I can't help but love the mental image. There's this guy walking around in a suit and glasses but then he sneeks into a phone book, rips off those to reveal a Red Wings jersey, jeans, and a dorky cape with "PSBG" on it. Then he jumps back out onto the sidewalk and brandishes a Psychology book for all the world to see and bow down to.

SI

What was she thinking, JW?

Mayor Nagin is now saying (quoted on CNN and some local broadcasts) that Bush offered Blanco two options for federal intervention into relief efforts while he was visiting the area and that Blanco would not accept either one but said she needed time to think about it. No details about what the options were or why Blanco would need more time, but this seems to tie in to the above story from the Post.

Also noted locally that bid laws have not been suspended to begin major repair work on highways and bridges. Blanco has not exercised numerous emergency powers.

I guess the better question would be, "Why is she not thinking?"

When Congress starts asking their questions, do you think anyone would have the guts to tell the truth about the State screwups?

I have felt since before the feds stepped in Blanco blew this one. Feds didn't helpm but she had troops there, send their asses in ASAP. Look how much things improved after the first wave of troops went in on Friday. After those troops went in the rest has almost been overkill.....

Sounds like the state of Louisiana will be looking for a new governor soon. Even if she avoids impeachment, I can't imagine even her own party staying behind her after this.

A little more about the slow federal response to the hurricane in Louisiana. And since it is from the Washington Post, it must be true:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680_pf.html

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

This is why many people in La. think Blanco is primarily to blame for the slow response. My belief is that in Blanco had asked Bush, Gen. Honore and federal troops could have been on the ground in New Orleans Tuesday instead of Friday. People were urging her to do so. Mayor Nagin of New Orleans says that when he complained to Bush, Bush sent Honore (and the troops). Also at least some La. National Guard units were not mobilized until after Katrina struck. Blanco did not order a full pre-hurricane mobilization and the La. Guard was not poised for the relief effort like the Mississippi and Alabama Guard for example.
This article, as you can see, was sourced from an anonymous senior Bush official. In fact, Blanco asked for federal assistance on August 27, see the letter here (http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8601). The part about her not declaring a federal emergency is an outright lie, as it was declared the Friday before the hurricane:
Under the provisions of [the relevant federal law], I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing ... In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State...
The Washington Post ran a correction today:
A Sept. 4 article on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina incorrectly said that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D) had not declared a state of emergency. She declared an emergency on Aug. 26.
The story of this senior Bush administration offical was that the feds were powerless to help until the state government asked for it. Notwithstanding the fact that we have already shown that the state government did ask for it, according to the National Response Plan accepted and implemented in Dec 2004 (accessed here: hxxp://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf), the feds don't wait for state requests. I don't doubt that Blanco and the mayor of NOLA made many mistakes, but they should at least be blamed for the mistakes they did make instead of being lied about.

Not to quibble, but isn't this an ethnicity issue? I thought we were all the same race...the human race.

Not to quibble, but isn't this an ethnicity issue? I thought we were all the same race...the human race.

Actually, I would go along the lines of 'class issue' then race/ethnic/color....

Actually, I would go along the lines of 'class issue' then race/ethnic/color....
Esp. since the poor white folks in the outer parishes received less attention and help than poor folks in N.O.

Thanks for the update. I am shocked to learn that the Washington Post is now LYING on behalf of the Bush administration. I think you would have to be here in Louisiana to fully appreciate how badly Blanco has bungled this business. And I think the discussion has more to do with what Blanco did after the hurricane hit than before, which has been very little of usefulness to the state. Mayor Nagin has been much more proactive in trying to get things done for his city.

Did you see the CNN interview with Blanco's new personal hurricane adviser, a former Clinton era FEMA head? I didn't see his name. He confirmed that Blanco turned down the options Bush presented her during his visit, saying it amounted to a piece of paper that didn't mean anything. It seems Bush sent Gen. Honore and the 7000 federal troops in despite Blanco, not because of her. In fact Nagin takes the credit for that, if he is to be believed. And, btw, Bush should have taken the action earlier, even if he had no support form the state. The arrival of the active duty troops and their transport assets is what turned the corner in New Orleans, and they could have been there by Wednesday.

Though I should remind you that the outlying areas in Louisiana have yet to see any relief from anyone. St. Bernard Parish officials say there are 1500 people on the levees right now who have been there for days. I hope that is not true.


This article, as you can see, was sourced from an anonymous senior Bush official. In fact, Blanco asked for federal assistance on August 27, see the letter here (http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8601). The part about her not declaring a federal emergency is an outright lie, as it was declared the Friday before the hurricane:

The Washington Post ran a correction today:

The story of this senior Bush administration offical was that the feds were powerless to help until the state government asked for it. Notwithstanding the fact that we have already shown that the state government did ask for it, according to the National Response Plan accepted and implemented in Dec 2004 (accessed here: hxxp://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf), the feds don't wait for state requests. I don't doubt that Blanco and the mayor of NOLA made many mistakes, but they should at least be blamed for the mistakes they did make instead of being lied about.

Esp. since the poor white folks in the outer parishes received less attention and help than poor folks in N.O.

A report from the outer parishes.

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print076928.html

Times-Picayune

Sunday, September 04, 2005

Melancon invites President Bush to tour devastation
(Washington, DC) - Today, 3rd District Congressman Charlie Melancon invited President Bush to personally tour the devastated areas outside New Orleans in Southeast Louisiana. President Bush has announced plans to be in Louisiana on Monday.

Congressman Melancon's comments on the invitation follow:

"People in Plaquemines Parish, St. Bernard Parish and other affected area in the Southeast Louisiana's 3rd District need to see that the federal government has not forgotten them."

"Today, I invited President Bush to join me on the ground in these parishes as soon as possible - ideally tomorrow - as we work to rescue survivors and get supplies where they are desperately needed."

"The fact is that 124 hours after Katrina hit, Plaquemines Parish still had received little or no contact from FEMA. Other parishes in southeast Louisiana went days without hearing from federal officials - that's unacceptable."

"Thankfully, Louisiana State Senator Walter Boasso and local officials, along with the Louisiana National Guard, Louisiana State Police, the Louisiana Department of Wildlife & Fisheries and other entities were able to reach folks on the ground. Together, we worked to put support efforts in motion and coordinate efforts to convey specific needs in the area to those who could take action."

"While slowly improving, conditions in parishes throughout Southeast Louisiana are beyond dire. Hundreds died among the thousands of residents who were stranded at Camp Katrina on Chalmette Landing. Areas nearby are equally grim. We need all the federal support we can get, and the only way to understand that is to witness it first hand."

"I sincerely hope the President will accept my invitation. I look forward to hearing from him soon."

Thanks for the update. I am shocked to learn that the Washington Post is now LYING on behalf of the Bush administration.
I believe it was the senior Bush administration official that was lying, not the WAPO, though it is detestable how the lazy Washington media doesn't do basic fact checking, especially since this is the umpteenth time that an anonymous source from the administration has lied to get a favorable story out. After all, something like this is easily checkable, and if confirmed doesn't need to be sourced anonymously since it is part of public record.

I think you would have to be here in Louisiana to fully appreciate how badly Blanco has bungled this business.
There is no doubt that in a disaster state and local officials will be overwhelmed. That is why we have FEMA. I'm sure Blanco screwed a bunch of stuff up, but what was it? Every passing of the buck coming from the feds ('nobody could have foreseen the levees failing', 'Blanco didn't ask for help', etc) is crap. So what did go wrong? Why lie if you have such a great case?

There is no doubt that in a disaster state and local officials will be overwhelmed. That is why we have FEMA. I'm sure Blanco screwed a bunch of stuff up, but what was it? Every passing of the buck coming from the feds ('nobody could have foreseen the levees failing', 'Blanco didn't ask for help', etc) is crap. So what did go wrong? Why lie if you have such a great case?

I was being facetious about the Post lying.

I think they all screwed up, from Bush down, primarily by doing too little too late. We spent three days in Louisiana wondering where the effort was, and then suddenly it showed up with LTG Honore and the military on Friday and Saturday, when people in New Orleans and throughout the state were yelling for it as early as Tuesday. And it could have been done sooner. Blanco was about the only one not yelling for help and according to multiple sources she hesitated when the offer was made. This from Nagin. Take it for what it is worth. BTW, I think Nagin, despite sending those rich folks to the front of the Superdome bus line, and despite other mistakes, has performed heroically :

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print076943.html

Times-Picayune


Sunday, September 04, 2005

Nagin said slow response cost lives
Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005 7:57 p.m.
Frustrated and grieving, Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday again ripped
the painfully slow response of state and federal
authorities to the plight of tens of thousands of
stranded New Orleanians in the days following
Hurricane Katrina, saying their inaction cost lives
and caused needless misery.
Nagin singled out Gov. Kathleen Blanco for criticism,
saying that the governor had asked for 24 hours to
think over a decision when time was a luxury that no
one, especially refugees, had.
“When the president and the governor got here, I said,
'Mr. President, Madame Governor, you two have to get
in synch. If you don't, more people are going to die.”
Blanco and Bush met privately at his insistence, Nagin
said, after which Bush came out and told Nagin that he
had given Blanco two options, and she requested a full
day to decide.
“It would have been great if we could have walked off
Air Force One and told the world we had it all worked
out,” Nagin said. “It didn't happen, and more people
died.”Police spokesman Capt. Marlon Defillo said Sunday that
“about a dozen” corpses were being taken out of the
Superdome. The convention center “has not been swept
yet,” he said.
Apart from the deaths, Nagin said people needlessly
suffered, particularly at the Dome.
“There was suffering at an unprecedented level in this
city, at this place and at the convention center,” he
said. “This is one of the richest countries in the
world. I'm looking at my city and I see death and
destruction, and I see a lot of it. And I'm pissed.”
Nagin said while much of the suffering was borne by
poor people, it would be a mistake to think it was
limited to the poor.
“When the final script is written, they're going to
see that everyone suffered,” he said. “Not just black
people - white people, Hispanics, people from Italy.
At the convention center, you had tourists, you had
people from hospitals, you had a mixture of people.”
Asked whether he himself bore responsibility for the
debacle, Nagin responded: “I'll take what
responsibility I have to take. But let me ask you
this: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you
have a Category 5 bearing down on you, and the best
you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people…
and there's never been a mandatory evacuation in this
city's history.
“I did that, and I elevated the level of stress to the
citizens. I said to make sure you have a fricking axe
in your house. And as a last resort, there are no
buildings in the city to withstand a Category 3 storm
other than the Superdome, and when that filled up, we
started sending them to the convention center. You
tell me what else I was supposed to do.”
Nagin said the government needs to learn quickly from
its nightmarishly slow reaction to Katrina.
“Our response to a significant disaster is appalling,”
he said. “What went down is a national and state
disgrace.”
The mayor said his next fear is that the decomposing
bodies of those who died in the storm and its wake
will spread disease, via mosquitoes, across the region
if the corpses aren't picked up soon. Again, he feels
the response has lagged.
“I requested a crop duster as soon as possible,” the
mayor said. “I still don't see a plane flying.

I was being facetious about the Post lying.
My apologies, tough to tell sometimes.

In reference to Nagin and the buses for the Hyatt guests - I had heard that earlier in the week, the Hyatt and the guest had hired buses to take them out of the city; however, FEMA commandeered them to transport people from the Superdome. If this is true, then his moving the "rich folks" to the front of the line was simply correcting an earlier wrong.

I have no idea where I read this and no idea of whether or not it is true.

White Foragers Report Threat Of Black Looters


NEW ORLEANS--Throughout the Gulf Coast, Caucasian suburbanites attempting to gather food and drink in the shattered wreckage of shopping districts have reported seeing African-Americans "looting snacks and beer from damaged businesses." "I was in the abandoned Wal-Mart gathering an air mattress so I could float out the potato chips, beef jerky, and Budweiser I'd managed to find," said white survivor Lars Wrightson, who had carefully selected foodstuffs whose salt and alcohol content provide protection against contamination. "Then I look up, and I see a whole family of [African-Americans] going straight for the booze. Hell, you could see they had already looted a fortune in diapers." Radio stations still in operation are advising store owners and white people in the affected areas to locate firearms in sporting-goods stores in order to protect themselves against marauding blacks looting gun shops.

On behalf of all us white, beer-drinking, chip-eating, and jerky-jerking males out there, let me say that that ignoramus does not speak for me.

White Foragers Report Threat Of Black Looters


NEW ORLEANS--Throughout the Gulf Coast, Caucasian suburbanites attempting to gather food and drink in the shattered wreckage of shopping districts have reported seeing African-Americans "looting snacks and beer from damaged businesses." "I was in the abandoned Wal-Mart gathering an air mattress so I could float out the potato chips, beef jerky, and Budweiser I'd managed to find," said white survivor Lars Wrightson, who had carefully selected foodstuffs whose salt and alcohol content provide protection against contamination. "Then I look up, and I see a whole family of [African-Americans] going straight for the booze. Hell, you could see they had already looted a fortune in diapers." Radio stations still in operation are advising store owners and white people in the affected areas to locate firearms in sporting-goods stores in order to protect themselves against marauding blacks looting gun shops. Sounds like something from the Onion. Speaking of which, I love their headline (and the part posted above was most of the way down the first page):

<b><big><big>God Outdoes Terrorists Yet Again</big></big></b>

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40305


Hey! http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/mad.gifhttp://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gifhttp://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Refugees Moved From Sewage-Contaminated Superdome To Hellhole Of Houston

HOUSTON—Evacuees from the overheated, filth-encrusted wreckage of the New Orleans Superdome were bussed to the humid, 110-degree August heat and polluted air of Houston last week, in a move that many are resisting. "Please, God, not Houston. Anyplace but Houston," said one woman, taking shelter under an overpass. "The food there is awful, and the weather is miserable. And the traffic—it's like some engineer was making a sick joke." Authorities apologized for transporting survivors to a city "barely better in any respect," but said the blistering-hot, oil-soaked Texas city was in fact slightly better, and that casualties due to gunfire would be no worse.



SI

Sounds like something from the Onion.

I was thinking "Tom Tomorrow"...

This is the best summary and analysis of the racism that a lot of people see.

hxxp://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_09_11_digbysblog_archive.html#112645667314579130

Short part of it:

These last two weeks I've heard the old school racists dragging out the "n" word, but they are dying out. We aren't going to see a lot of that anymore, thank god. But the code words were being slung around more freely than I've seen in ages. The first thing I heard out of people's mouths was that these people had been "irresponsible" for not following the directions they were given. The next thing I heard was that "looters" were taking over the city and they should be shot. Then there was the "why do they have so many kids" and "why can't they clean up after themselves" and "defecating where they stood."

I've heard all of this before. Just as racist code language sounds sweet and familiar to the true believers, it sets off alarm bells for people like me; when you grow up in a racist household, (just as when you grow up in a black household, I would assume) you know it when you hear it.

And throughout I've heard many good people insist that race is not a factor. They seem to think that racism is only defined as an irrational hatred of black people. It's not. It also manifests itself as an irrational fear of black people.