I don't feel like making this a poll, but rather a discussion. And please, no "I want my text sim 3 fingers deep" jokes, or that stuff (granted, I'm usually the one making that joke.)

But in all text-sim serious, this is a question I often ponder while playing the games. To me, the game has to be deep enough to make me want to play it, but not so deep that I feel it is overbearing. I don't want a game that will make me actually running a franchise, but a game that makes me feel like I'm running a franchise.

Take the CM series for example. Right now, I think it is getting close to the border of me not wanting to play it. For me, its ok for me to set lineups, make transfers, do some broad modifications to the training. But the more it expands, the harder it is for me to get into the game. I don't want to have to set up a detailed training schedule for each day. I don't want to have to micromanage my youth academy (you know its coming eventually). There is only so much I have time to do, and I want to be able to see a few results from m hardwork during each session, not just have a few sessions where I sit down and do nothing but micromanage.

I'm not meaning to pick on the CM guys, but to me it is the deepest of all the sims right now. Sure, I can have the computer automate things, but most of the time it ends up screwing things up that I want a particular way (see OOTP minor league transactions or FOF gameplans/depth charts).

Does anyone else feel we may be getting to a point where text-sims are getting too deep, and taking a lot of fun out of the game?

I want CM4: American Football.

I don't care how deep it is, just as long as there is an option to have AI handle the things I don't want to handle. Like in CM, I could manage the Reserves and Youth Squads if I wanted too, but I don't and I'm happy there is an option for me to give control of that to an AI. Just as long as the AI is good. If the AI is crappy and I have to do it myself anyway, it defeats the purpose.

I'm on the fence with this, because there are aspects Lik ehaving detailed control over, like setting up a training schedule in CM. I wouldn't, however, want to have spend as much time managing my A squad in baseball as I do my major league squad.

SO my thought is, make it is as deep as feasibly possible, and let us pick and choose which parts we'll handle and which parts we can let the AI handle.

Originally posted by rexallllsc
I want CM4: American Football.

oh oh oh! CM: Baseball would be pretty sweet

CM Hockey is on its way. :D

Oh dear God, the 7th sign. I agree with EM. That is why I will always point to the BBPro and FBPro games as the bar to aim for. They gave me just enough depth without having to make the game become a second job. I have nothing against games that allow you to set how much you pay your bathroom attendant and such but it's not my style. I play a game to get away from the working world, not to feel like I'm going to a job. Some may like that extra control, and that's fine for them. Just give me a way to automate those features if they are going to be in a game. That way I can mess with them if I am feeling adventurous (sp?).

I think that Jim's games are very good that way. You can play with ticket prices and getting new stadiums but you don't have to worry about how much your vendors are charging (unless that's in FOF4, I don't have that version)

I want CM in sports I can enjoy. I want the TOTAL level of participation in all aspects of the game. FOF isnt there but has improved alot since the beginning of the series, many others have as well(Madden).

The more detail the more I enjoy it.

Originally posted by bosshogg23
I want CM in sports I can enjoy. I want the TOTAL level of participation in all aspects of the game. FOF isnt there but has improved alot since the beginning of the series, many others have as well(Madden).

The more detail the more I enjoy it.

Ditto. By the way, I wouldn't want to set concession prices etc. either. The only popular game I know of that does that is Madden, and that feature is a little silly. BUT, I want to be able to immerse myself in the world of football and the more details the better, as long as they are done well.

if by "text sim" you mean pussy, then I would say just deep enough.

hey, someone had to post it. why not me?

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Take the CM series for example. Right now, I think it is getting close to the border of me not wanting to play it. For me, its ok for me to set lineups, make transfers, do some broad modifications to the training. But the more it expands, the harder it is for me to get into the game. I don't want to have to set up a detailed training schedule for each day. I don't want to have to micromanage my youth academy (you know its coming eventually). There is only so much I have time to do, and I want to be able to see a few results from m hardwork during each session, not just have a few sessions where I sit down and do nothing but micromanage.

I'm not meaning to pick on the CM guys, but to me it is the deepest of all the sims right now. Sure, I can have the computer automate things, but most of the time it ends up screwing things up that I want a particular way (see OOTP minor league transactions or FOF gameplans/depth charts).

Does anyone else feel we may be getting to a point where text-sims are getting too deep, and taking a lot of fun out of the game?

I always try and balance any expansion of features with keeping the gameplay as simple and fun as possible ....

I try and take great care to ensure that any assistants do reasonable jobs with tasks if they are delegated to them (this is especially true on CM03-04) as this allows people to play the game in exactly the way they want without worrying about things.

It might surprise you to know for instance that I don't actually use all the features of CM when I play, for instance training was put into the game because of the number of requests we got for it - but I tend to leave that to my assistant manager.

I also tend to let the assistant manager in CM03-04 handle the reserve and U19 teams and even the contract renewals for the U19 team ... this is a personal preference in style of play and some people want to micro-manage ... I'm just not one of them ;)

A sim is never enought deep for me if well done. I mean, i want to feel i'm coaching a real team so the more deep the better, but if bad done, it becomes tedious. I love the CM series, have played them since the begining and will keep playing them just because how deep they are. I whish all the sport sims were as deep or even more, the player personalities of CM are a must for any text sim, i want to manage players with feelings not just stats and the CM series are the only that offers that to me. I even would like more options at the cm series like GM options about economy, of course that should be an option to choose at the start to the career, so you can play as GM, as coach, etc.
After last CM i was a buit dissapointed and not because there are more options but because the bugs/patches that made me start dynasties lots of times and becuse my best hope, the 2d view is really bad IMHO because the AI is soo poor, the football represented is the one that the kids at my street plays, not real all stars football that i watch every weekend at our spanish league, even playing with top teams it's sad, liek watching Real Madrid just sending long passes and the defense heading like a tennis game. If at least the text pbp would have been as good as previous versions i would enjoy it, but the text sim pbp became much more simple and bored, a clear step backwards.
I want deeeeeeep in text games, and even more on the ones with large seasons like baseball, hockey or basketball, else you have nothing to do during the season but to play matches, at least player personalities, tranings, etc make you manage your rooster carefully and also economy makes you busy too.

TEXT SIMS ARE NEVER DEEP ENOUGHT IF WELL IMPLEMENTED :)

Master Vaughan :) , I would really want to discuss with you about sim games one day not just about CM, but i haven't ever emailed you as i suposse you would be so busy just to talk about games, and you haven't time to discuss by email with any fan as i bet you get more daily fan emails than i get spam (about 400 emails daily because my work) , mybe one day we will talk .... :)

I think the best of all possible worlds is having an extremely deep sim, with enough intermediate options or shortcuts so that those inclined not to use the game's full depth don't feel like they are missing out.

In CM, you can design your own tactics and manage the absolute minutae of the on-field reactions of each and every player. Or, you can load up some pre-fabricated tactics (or someone else's custom ones) and get much of the same benefits without investing a ton of your own time and effort. Or, you can stick with a number of standard basic tactics, and still expect your team to perform pretty well. Seems like a fair split to me.

In FOF 2004, it looks like game planning will go in this direction. In FOF4, I was usually pretty reluctant to invest a ton of time in the multi-level situational game planning, and generally just used some midest global modifications to a pretty standard gameplan. In FOF 2004, with the ability to save and reload an entire gameplan, I'm thinking that taking a half hour to really build a full plan from the bottom up will be a worthwhile investment of time - as I'll be able to re-use that game plan in multiple careers, and make modifications to it as warrented. And, of course, as long as the "recommended" game plan makes general sense (which I think they do) then there's no greivous loss for those who just want to focus solely on roster management, and let the game planning work itself out.

Originally posted by Icy
TEXT SIMS ARE NEVER DEEP ENOUGHT IF WELL IMPLEMENTED :)
I agree with that, its a matter of finding the right balance between depth and ease of use - I try and expand CM slowly and in such a way that people who aren't interested in the minutae of detail don't have to get bogged down ...

Master Vaughan :) , I would really want to discuss with you about sim games one day not just about CM, but i haven't ever emailed you as i suposse you would be so busy just to talk about games, and you haven't time to discuss by email with any fan as i bet you get more daily fan emails than i get spam (about 400 emails daily because my work) , mybe one day we will talk .... :) [/B]
Feel free to mail me, I do try and respond fairly promptly to emails and am happy to discuss sims with anyone interested - please do bear in mind however that in the run up to CM03-04 I am fairly busy at the moment (in fact you've just reminded me I've promised to email out some 'SI coding standards' to a few people a week ago and haven't managed to do that yet ... got to run).

Have Fun,

Marc