Lacy looks real good but the Bears defense is abysmal.

He's been putting up numbers before that. Oh, and at this point he's just about all they have on offense with all of the injuries.

I can promise you the win probability for Denver was well over 1% in all three of those games. Especially at the third down plays of the Falcons and Texans games.

Okay, I misspoke and should have said that their win probability would have been as low as 1% at various points in all of these games before their late surges made it appear close. I found the stats so let's take a look...

vs. Atlanta - Hit 2% as early as three minutes to play in the 3rd quarter, hit 1% with 3:34 remaining. Spiked at 20% with 2:40 remaining right before the aforementioned completion to Jones. That late 20% spike was the highest WP in the 2nd half and highest since the first quarter.

vs. Houston - Hit 1% right at the start of the 4th quarter and was 1% as late as 5 minutes to play. Spiked at 21% with just under three minutes to go. That 21% was the highest WP of the 2nd half and highest since early in the 2nd quarter.

vs. New England - Hit 2% as early as 5 minutes to play in the 3rd quarter. Dropped to 1% with 11 minutes to play. Spiked at 15% with just over 4 minutes to play, the highest WP% since early in the 3rd quarter. Highest WP at any point of 2nd half was 22% in early 3rd quarter.

vs. Colts - Hit 2% with just over a minute to go in the 3rd quarter. Spiked at 21% right before the Hillman fumble, the highest WP of the 2nd half.

There you have it. Their win probability was 2% or less in all of those games by the start of the 4th quarter or earlier. That's only 2 out of every 100 games they win in those circumstances. Now, Manning is a great quarterback who can pick apart teams that sit back in zone but I'll stand by my assertion that those games were close because the teams that were winning changed up their style of play on both offense and defense on account of their large leads.

With that in mind, while their highest WP in the 2nd half of any of those games that, according to you, they were supposedly still in was 21%, by comparison in their wins this year, the Jaguars still had a 40% WP midway through the 3rd quarter, the Cowboys had an 85% WP with just over 5 minutes to play in the 4th, the Eagles were at 23% at the opening of the 3rd quarter, the Giants were at 44% late in the 3rd quarter, Baltimore was at 65% to open the 3rd quarter, and Washington was at 70% to open the 4th quarter. Based on the circumstances at half time or later, they lose five of those seven games at least 40% of the time.

It's hard to make the argument that they are blowing teams up and finishing them off early while at the same time saying that "Denver was in EVERY one of those games with a chance to win with under 5 minutes left." Both the Jags and Giants chances were twice as good to win their games by the midway point of the 3rd or later than Denver's was to win any of those aforementioned games. That's not to mention the Cowboys or Redskins, who were both 70% or greater to win at points in the 4th quarter.

I'm not disputing that Denver is not better than Kansas City, because despite their records, I think they are. I also think they are the best team in the weak AFC, particularly since Reggie Wayne went out and the large number of injuries to the Pats defense, and possibly even before that. Because of that, they have a great shot at the Super Bowl, although I think that is largely because they will have a much, much easier path to get there, and once there, the game is pretty much a 50/50 tossup.

But people need to stop pretending that they are this dominant juggernaut. While the numbers are impressive on the surface, they are much less so when you dig a little deeper. I think it's clear that they have struggled against good teams the past two seasons. I know, I know, different teams, blah, blah, blah, but you speak as if there have been no downgrades anywhere and every positional change has been an upgrade. The Broncos have played the second easiest schedule in the league this year by a wide margin, surpassed not surprisingly by only the Chiefs. The 2007 Patriots they are not, considering the Pats beat 8 teams that were .500 or better.

I think we all know what's really going to happen here... Denver and KC split their two games, the Patriots beat them both to get into yet another Super Bowl, and we all die a little inside.

I think we all know what's really going to happen here... Denver and KC split their two games, the Patriots beat them both to get into yet another Super Bowl, and we all die a little inside.

Works for me!

Interesting bit on the Dolphins thing, looks like Incognito left that message.. at the coaching staff's urging.. (the player had missed two "voluntary" workouts, and Incognito was asked to "get him back into the fold")

If true, the coaching staff should be gone.

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/1204/article/p2p-78065907/

Works for me!

Interesting bit on the Dolphins thing, looks like Incognito left that message.. at the coaching staff's urging.. (the player had missed two "voluntary" workouts, and Incognito was asked to "get him back into the fold")

If true, the coaching staff should be gone.

Sun Sentinel (http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/1204/article/p2p-78065907/)

HEAD COACH: "Martin needs to get with the program! But the CBA prevents us from ordering him to come to these workouts. We need to task a player with the subtle mission of 'convincing' him to come to these workouts. Any ideas on who?"

COACH 2: "We could get that really mentally unstable guy who got kicked off two college teams and, like, three pro teams for being such a hothead?"

COACH 3: "Or, if I may make a suggestion, FUCKING ANYONE ELSE ON THE TEAM, including the fucking groundskeeper."

HEAD COACH: "Hmm. Well I think that the choice here is obvious. So y'all set this up. But remember, we will get in trouble with the CBA if this comes back on us, so make sure that the guy you pick is incognito."

HEAD COACH: "Martin needs to get with the program! But the CBA prevents us from ordering him to come to these workouts. We need to task a player with the subtle mission of 'convincing' him to come to these workouts. Any ideas on who?"

COACH 2: "We could get that really mentally unstable guy who got kicked off two college teams and, like, three pro teams for being such a hothead?"

COACH 3: "Or, if I may make a suggestion, FUCKING ANYONE ELSE ON THE TEAM, including the fucking groundskeeper."

HEAD COACH: "Hmm. Well I think that the choice here is obvious. So y'all set this up. But remember, we will get in trouble with the CBA if this comes back on us, so make sure that the guy you pick is incognito."

...Well-played sir. I do hope good comes out of this whole mess.

I think we all know what's really going to happen here... Denver and KC split their two games, the Patriots beat them both to get into yet another Super Bowl, and we all die a little inside.

This depresses me greatly. Yet, it's the outlook I generally get every year. They are the Jason Voorhees of the NFL. They will not die.

Although, I did get a kick of the link from Hot Links on SI yesterday that compared teams to old TV shows. The Pats were 90210, a whole love-hate thing.

Works for me!

Interesting bit on the Dolphins thing, looks like Incognito left that message.. at the coaching staff's urging.. (the player had missed two "voluntary" workouts, and Incognito was asked to "get him back into the fold")

If true, the coaching staff should be gone.

Sun Sentinel (http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/1204/article/p2p-78065907/)

Yeah from his time here in St. Louis Richie Incognito seems like a real "class act" but I got the impression his message was something along those lines... like a friend at the gym "Come on you pussy... one more set... you worthless piece of shit". Not excusing it and definitely not excusing the N word since it seems like Martin wasn't a fan of it but good god the coverage has made it sound like Incognito was going to kill Martin in a KKK rally and then go kill his mom. There is something to be said for context but I guess not in sports radio.

Yeah from his time here in St. Louis Richie Incognito seems like a real "class act" but I got the impression his message was something along those lines... like a friend at the gym "Come on you pussy... one more set... you worthless piece of shit". Not excusing it and definitely not excusing the N word since it seems like Martin wasn't a fan of it but good god the coverage has made it sound like Incognito was going to kill Martin in a KKK rally and then go kill his mom. There is something to be said for context but I guess not in sports radio.

This is what I also think was going on. There has to be a reason that no one stuck up for him during some of these "pranks" and Id speculate that maybe he wasnt the hardest working player out there. This voicemail however crossed the line and now that the NFL has it I am not sure they are going to really care on what the context was.

It's amazing how much Reddit is flipping their shit over this whole Martin thing.

BULLYING IS REAL

Man, bullying has always been real, and it used to be worse IMO. It used to be physical. It used to hurt. There was little or no public evidence of it to use to protect yourself. Now the real damage is mostly self inflicted by overprotected kids who don't know how to deal with adversity. Cyberbullying? About the stupidest concept I have ever heard.

Roll with the punches applies to verbal punches too.

Works for me!

Interesting bit on the Dolphins thing, looks like Incognito left that message.. at the coaching staff's urging.. (the player had missed two "voluntary" workouts, and Incognito was asked to "get him back into the fold")

If true, the coaching staff should be gone.

Sun Sentinel (http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/1204/article/p2p-78065907/)

At the risk of being accused of blindly supporting the team, I would ask...Why?

If you are saying they should be gone because the league has rules against hazing (which I agree with) and they were not enforced, then I would agree.

But to fire the staff for doing something that up until last week was a part of NFL culture makes no sense.

From the same article
Sources say that communication took place when Martin skipped two days of the team's OTA program, and Incognito was encouraged by his coaches to make a call that would "get him into the fold," one source said.

Even though OTA workouts are voluntary, the NFL culture forces coaches to strong arm the team's leaders to make sure everyone attends. Sources say Incognito was doing his job, but they admit he crossed the line.

I hate the whole situation but just like Spy-gate and Bounty-gate, I believe similar things go on in other places. I have been fascinated by the reaction by media members and how shocked, SHOCKED that this happens, and how much blame is being placed at Martin's door.

NFL personnel question 'coward' Jonathan Martin for not challenging Richie Incognito - NFL - Jim Trotter - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20131104/nfl-personnel-question-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito/?sct=hp_t2_a5&eref=sihp)

Regarding the above article, anyone else find it ironic that the executives that are calling Martin a coward for not settling things like a man are speaking speaking on the condition of anonymity instead of putting their name to their words....like men?

This is what I also think was going on. There has to be a reason that no one stuck up for him during some of these "pranks" and Id speculate that maybe he wasnt the hardest working player out there. This voicemail however crossed the line and now that the NFL has it I am not sure they are going to really care on what the context was.

There is photo evidence of Martin being involved in other pranks on other offensive linemen too, so it is highly unlikely that he was really that averse to this kind of behavior.

I think Incognito is a punk and won't shed a tear for him. That said, if Martin was SO offended and put off by these comments - why did he sit on them for 6 months? I would have given a lot more credence to Martin's claims had he gone to Philbin back in April and not waited to mentioned them until he got a 30K dinner bill six months later.

It's amazing how much Reddit is flipping their shit over this whole Martin thing.

BULLYING IS REAL

Man, bullying has always been real, and it used to be worse IMO. It used to be physical. It used to hurt. There was little or no public evidence of it to use to protect yourself. Now the real damage is mostly self inflicted by overprotected kids who don't know how to deal with adversity. Cyberbullying? About the stupidest concept I have ever heard.

Roll with the punches applies to verbal punches too.

My wife and I talk to my daughter probably weekly about bullying, mostly with other kids. Girls can be pretty vicious and my daughter has taken on the protective role. She wants to stick up for these kids thus getting picked on herself.

Cyberbullying? About the stupidest concept I have ever heard.

This is a pretty ignorant stance I believe. What Cyberbullying has created is an environment where there is no escape route, it can follow you everywhere. No letup. It then leads to social isolation.

Cyberbullying gets its start online, but spreads to regular social situations. You have kids committing suicide after they leave facebook / social media and move to a new place, and the bullying follows them.

Even if you aren't into social media, social media is used to spread the bullying and get more kids in on it. In this day and age, all it takes is one photo snapped of you (sometimes with your consent and stupid, other times just catching you by surprise in a weird spot) and that's the end of your social life at a critical age.

And you can't fight everybody.

It's amazing how much Reddit is flipping their shit over this whole Martin thing.

BULLYING IS REAL

Man, bullying has always been real, and it used to be worse IMO. It used to be physical. It used to hurt. There was little or no public evidence of it to use to protect yourself. Now the real damage is mostly self inflicted by overprotected kids who don't know how to deal with adversity. Cyberbullying? About the stupidest concept I have ever heard.

Roll with the punches applies to verbal punches too.

Tell that to the families of Megan Meier or Rebecca Sedwick.

Salivating Andy Reid Still Chasing Perfect Seasoning | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/articles/salivating-andy-reid-still-chasing-perfect-seasoni,34469/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default)

This is a pretty ignorant stance I believe. What Cyberbullying has created is an environment where there is no escape route, it can follow you everywhere. No letup. It then leads to social isolation.

Cyberbullying gets its start online, but spreads to regular social situations. You have kids committing suicide after they leave facebook / social media and move to a new place, and the bullying follows them.

Even if you aren't into social media, social media is used to spread the bullying and get more kids in on it. In this day and age, all it takes is one photo snapped of you (sometimes with your consent and stupid, other times just catching you by surprise in a weird spot) and that's the end of your social life at a critical age.

And you can't fight everybody.

Except Martin isn't a child.

Girls can be pretty viscous

Like what, 10W40, 5W30? What are we talking about here?

Like what, 10W40, 5W30? What are we talking about here?

More 10W40....

Except Martin isn't a child.

Neither was the Rutgers student who jumped off a bridge because of his roommate bullying him. At what point does someone have to become grown up enough to deal with what appears to be pretty severe emotional abuse.

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

Neither was the Rutgers student who jumped off a bridge because of his roommate bullying him. At what point does someone have to become grown up enough to deal with what appears to be pretty severe emotional abuse.

I'm simply happy that this didn't turn into another story where an unhappy employee went in and shot up his co-workers.

If the coaching staff initiated this treatment of Martin, then everyone associated with it needs to be fired, including the GM. Society is changing and whether NFL players like it or not, behaviors in NFL locker rooms are going to have to change as well.

Philbin needs to be fired regardless. If he knew it was going on and did nothing about it, he's responsible. If he didn't know it was going on, then he's clueless.

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

I agree.

Neither was the Rutgers student who jumped off a bridge because of his roommate bullying him. At what point does someone have to become grown up enough to deal with what appears to be pretty severe emotional abuse.

I'd say around 9th or 10th grade. At some point standing up for yourself becomes an option, those who choose not to do that probably aren't gonna be very happy no matter what happens in their life.

I have immense sympathy for people who feel like they have no option but to kill themselves, but there's also a road they've gone down long before the bullying ever started that put them in that fragile mental state.

I have immense sympathy for people who feel like they have no option but to kill themselves, but there's also a road they've gone down long before the bullying ever started that put them in that fragile mental state.

This is a load of hogwash.

So what you are saying is people who commit suicide are predisposed to do so and the bullying has no bearing?

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.Speaking of that culture, I've come to strongly suspect that the use of the n-word by white players is a whole lot more accepted "among the family" of the team than the general public realizes or could ever stomach.

This is a load of hogwash.

So what you are saying is people who commit suicide are predisposed to do so and the bullying has no bearing?

Not even close to what I said.

I have immense sympathy for people who feel like they have no option but to kill themselves, but there's also a road they've gone down long before the bullying ever started that put them in that fragile mental state.

Not even close to what I said.

What exactly did you mean then?

Cyberbullying? About the stupidest concept I have ever heard.

You'll probably want to reposition yourself on this one ... because I'm going to largely agree with you.

When you've been pinned to a wall by three older/bigger guys (three of whom eventually did prison time on felonies including murder, manslaughter & armed robbery)and a 4th guy puts a switchblade to your 11 year old throat ... well, that emphasizes the difference between bullying and the trendy cyberbullying.

And the whole "social media IS teenage life" crap is overblown (or underparented). I've got a 15 y/o non addict ... and yet he's the guy who everyone flocks to when he arrives at a function. It is entirely possible to have a reasonable teen social life that doesn't revolve around FB/IG/TW and all the other social media outlets.

It is entirely possible to have a reasonable teen social life that doesn't revolve around FB/IG/TW and all the other social media outlets.

It is.

But what about the 14 year old girl who is constantly being called a slut or a whore online for all her classmates/ peers to see?

Are you saying that isn't real?

That they haven't been prepared, that they haven't a clue what the world is like, that they've been sheltered, that they've been coddled to a degree, that they've been allowed to enter a situation they aren't prepared for. There could be a number of reasons. It may sound harsh, but if you're so mentally incapable of handling things like people calling you names that you're reaction is to kill yourself, then the people who raised you and taught you did a piss poor job of it.

That they haven't been prepared, that they haven't a clue what the world is like, that they've been sheltered, that they've been coddled to a degree, that they've been allowed to enter a situation they aren't prepared for. There could be a number of reasons. It may sound harsh, but if you're so mentally incapable of handling things like people calling you names that you're reaction is to kill yourself, then the people who raised you and taught you did a piss poor job of it.

OK

So it is the victims fault.

Got it.

That they haven't been prepared, that they haven't a clue what the world is like, that they've been sheltered, that they've been coddled to a degree, that they've been allowed to enter a situation they aren't prepared for. There could be a number of reasons. It may sound harsh, but if you're so mentally incapable of handling things like people calling you names that you're reaction is to kill yourself, then the people who raised you and taught you did a piss poor job of it.

Your over-generalization here is beyond laughable. I know you don't want to hear it, but there are lots of people whose mental state is perfectly sound, and whose parents were perfectly supportive, yet are severely affected by bullying.

"Be a man and deal with it" is not really a sufficient answer here.

"Be a man and deal with it" is not really a sufficient answer here.

Why?

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

I'm starting to feel this way as well. This whole thing combined with the concussion BS that is going on right now, really makes me not want to watch the NFL anymore or play fantasy.

What will I do about it? Absolutely nothing.

To say that people need to be tougher and learn to deal with this sort of thing is being flippant and not understanding the issue. Everyone thinks and feels differently. If you are someone that has been strong throughout your life and haven't had to deal with this sort of thing, then you have no idea what it is like to be afraid in these situations. Fear is paralyzing sometimes. Fuck man there are people out there terrified of clowns, so to dismiss someone from being scared of a guy that can bench press 600 lbs is very far out of touch with the issue, IMO.

Why?

Because someone people aren't made that way.

Why?

well for one thing it shifts the blame from the person THREATENING TO KILL ANOTHER PERSON WHILE USING RACIAL SLURS to the person who said "Screw this, I'm walking away from you."

well for one thing it shifts the blame from the person THREATENING TO KILL ANOTHER PERSON WHILE USING RACIAL SLURS to the person who said "Screw this, I'm walking away from you."

I wasn't talking about Martin in this instance. He hasn't killed himself. And clearly being threatened with murder is another level. I was responding more to the "joe is a fag, joe fucks his mom, joe shits himself" type of cyber bullying.

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

That hadn't really like...occurred to me until you said it. You're totally right. For a Giants fan ( ;) ), you're making a lot of sense during football season and I think I gotta stand with you.

Because someone people aren't made that way.

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

And that puts it in the proper perspective, IMO. Which types of people does this system lift up and validate?

It is.

But what about the 14 year old girl who is constantly being called a slut or a whore online for all her classmates/ peers to see?

Are you saying that isn't real?

Because it doesn't apply to Jon's life I'm guessing his answer is that it doesn't matter.

Is physical bullying occurring - yes.
Is online bullying occurring - yes.

Just because one happens doesn't make the other somehow invalid or less "real." Just because person X was cyber-bullied doesn't mean that person Y's physical bullying shouldn't receive the amount of attention and concern it deserves.

Eh "wanted to read into it" dramatically overstates how big a shit I give one way or another, just to be really honest about it.

I just really came away from that piece feeling as coach was about two or three more quotes away from outing the guy, if you just really want to know what I was thinking initially. After reading a longer version (http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2013/11/05/jonathan-martins-high-school-coach-bullies-usually-go-after-people-like-him/) of the quotes, the coach really does come very very close IMO to saying outright that Martin was indeed "soft".Pretty much. Plus, "soft" in this context doesn't apply only to the potential for physical violence. I don't think anyone thinks Tom Brady fits into the NFL culture off the field, but all his teammates respect him because he works his ass off and wants to win more than any of them (and I suspect Andrew Luck falls into this category.) You get the sense from Martin's actions and HS coach that playing in the NFL isn't his ultimate goal and I could easily see where that would piss off his teammates to whom playing in the NFL is their everything. That isn't just limited to Stanford/Harvard players - look at how Myron Rolle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle) was treated by NFL executives and teammates.

Meh, multiple is apparently 2. One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez and one is a guy who's brand new to the team.

Want more than 2?

Articles at various locations (nfl.com, miami Sun, HuffPo) cite Brent Grimes (granted, a newcomer), rookie CB Will Davis, a former player who left in the off-season described Incognito as "an honorary black man" (http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/06/richie-incognito-honorary-black-man-miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin/)

Pouncey didn't just defend him, he also described the alleged final straw incident ... I'll let the story speak for itself
But Pouncey told Carter that the prank which set Martin over the edge — players in the team cafeteria standing up from their table when another player sat down — “had been played on many Dolphins players ‘dozens’ of times. Even coach Joe Philbin has been a target of the prank.”

Did Incognito cross a line somewhere? It looks that way based on what we know/have been told. And yet he's still considered a better teammate by some (many?) than Martin. That seems like a pretty big red flag.

Pretty much. Plus, "soft" in this context doesn't apply only to the potential for physical violence. I don't think anyone thinks Tom Brady fits into the NFL culture off the field, but all his teammates respect him because he works his ass off and wants to win more than any of them (and I suspect Andrew Luck falls into this category.) You get the sense from Martin's actions and HS coach that playing in the NFL isn't his ultimate goal and I could easily see where that would piss off his teammates to whom playing in the NFL is their everything. That isn't just limited to Stanford/Harvard players - look at how Myron Rolle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Rolle) was treated by NFL executives and teammates.

I'm not too sure that any NFL team would allow their star QB, someone they've sunk tens of millions of dollars into, to be fucked with by anyone on the team in the manner that Incognito did to Martin.

Tell that to the families of Megan Meier or Rebecca Sedwick.

If the parents actually gave a shit they could have figured things out for themselves. Take away their damn cell phone, show them how to block/report people on facebook or whatever, and fucking talk to them about it. If your son or daughter wants to kill themselves because of being bullied, there will be signs. There will be a change in behavior. It will be fucking obvious. At that point you need to get serious about it and do something. Give the kid the strongest safety net you can so they don't feel alone. If you're not paying attention, letting a kid float free in a rough sea of people who can't understand the hurt of their actions? Well you're an idiot. Simple as that. As a parent, I consider myself responsible for my son and his well being as far as my reach can extend. I plan to fully educate him on what it means to get picked on and how to get it to stop. I'll also be sure and let him know what to do if it doesn't stop. (tell me first so we can go speak to the authorities directly involved in the supervision of my son as a family) - I don't plan to stop him from living and making mistakes, but I am sure as hell going to make sure he understands how to deal with people.

I was called a faggot and kicked and pushed down in front of my teachers in high school on many occasions (at least 15-20). I don't know if the teachers just turned a blind eye or were afraid to get involved, but they saw it go down. My guess for why they often didn't do anything (aside from a couple verbal warnings)? Because I took all the fun out of it for the bully. Water off a ducks back. Didn't even acknowledge them. All but two or three of them stopped completely, and the ones that kept up didn't keep it up in any capacity that made me afraid to go to school or feel any worse about myself.

I moved to my high school right before my freshman year. Left all my friends in Indiana and was forced to move because the government shut down the proving ground my dad worked at. I started high school in a gang infested school of 4000 mostly Spanish speaking students in a town where I knew nobody. Not a single person. The school had 2 armed security guards on premises at all times because of all the gang fights. I was a pale, skinny, country twanged, shy white boy. That is to say, I was an easy target - until I showed everyone who tried how little their childish barbs and jabs meant.

Anyone that wants me to feel bad for them being bullied should know right up front I commiserate, but I feel very little sympathy. I dealt with it and it made me stronger. If they would deal with it, the same would likely happen for them unless they're just an unlikable ass. The whole killing yourself because of bullies never once became a part of my thought process. It never should. The parents are the last people I feel sorry for in this type of situation because they were likely part of the problem by not really truly being there when they needed to.

I can fully understand where Martin is coming from. Likelihood is having rich ass parents like that, he probably never really learned to deal with adversity. It probably hits him hard when he meets those kinds of conditions. He probably was never taught how to handle shit and he probably never had to, so it is completely understandable. But why do you think he is the only one on the team that had a fit? Surely Incognito couldn't have waited his whole career just to pick on one guy. Surely other players on the team and in the league have dealt with the same kind of thing. He isn't the only player in the league from a privileged background. There's no fucking way in hell you'll get me to believe he was somehow coerced to pay 15,000 dollars for something against his will unless he is just insanely, mind-bogglingly naive.

Also, again, he was taking part in the pranking as well when he wasn't the butt of the pranks. I'm not saying Incognito is in the right by any means, but this whole generation of over protected fear fed kids we have growing up needs to be given a chance to grow a pair if a few cases of silly verbal abuse sends them over the edge.

I'm not too sure that any NFL team would allow their star QB, someone they've sunk tens of millions of dollars into, to be fucked with by anyone on the team in the manner that Incognito did to Martin.

On that other hand though. You probably arent going to be making "tens of millions of dollars" if you havent figured out how to gain the respect of your teammates.

Screw it, trade Martin to Indy or Chicago. Indy clearly has no problem with Stanford educated players like Miami does according to Jons article and in Chicago you've got Brandon Marshall who cares far more about other players mental well being than anyone in Miami seems to. In a perfect scenario they'd trade Martin to Indy and Marshall finds a way to get there ASAP as Reggie Waynes replacement.

Edit: realized its too late to trade. Release him and let Indy make him an offer while he's still in the hospital.

Trade him to NE - he'd fit right in.

I would guess that there are an entirely different set of unwritten rules and expectations when it comes to the guys who wear the red jerseys.

Agree with you both. Leadership within an organization needs to have respect for different types of personalities. Part of leadership is getting the most from that player/person not getting the least amount possible from that person. Id probably have a hard time wanting to do anything extra if I was getting treated like shit like going optional mini camps.

Trade him to NE - he'd fit right in.

You guys helped make Randy Moss a pretty good team player for 3 years. That in itself is a remarkable feat.

Son, we live in a world that has running backs. These running backs have to be defended by men with helmets. Who's going to do it? You? You, sportswriters? I have a greater responsbility then you could possibly fathom. You weep for Martin, and you curse the Dolphins. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Martin's departure, while tragic, probably saved yards. An my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves yards. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about in postgame interviews, you WANT me on that line, you NEED me on that line. We use words like stunt, blitz, a-gap. We use the words as the backbone of a life spent defending the read option. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps writing about the very sport that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a helmet, and get in a three point stance. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

I'm not too sure that any NFL team would allow their star QB, someone they've sunk tens of millions of dollars into, to be fucked with by anyone on the team in the manner that Incognito did to Martin.If any QB was missing OTA's or perceived as giving less than 100% I'm pretty sure the coaching staff wouldn't care how much he was getting paid - they'd move on. (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/03/buccaneers-cut-the-cord-release-josh-freeman/)

And some Quarterbacks (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GarcJe00.htm) who have been singled out as "different" (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1904844) sure do seem to have a hard time finding/keeping a starting job despite really good on-field results.

OK
So it is the victims fault.
Got it.

If I call you a pompous dickbag who fucks goats, and you kill yourself over it then it is your fault. Thankfully I would never do such a thing.

This is a pretty ignorant stance I believe. What Cyberbullying has created is an environment where there is no escape route, it can follow you everywhere. No letup. It then leads to social isolation.

Cyberbullying gets its start online, but spreads to regular social situations. You have kids committing suicide after they leave facebook / social media and move to a new place, and the bullying follows them.

Even if you aren't into social media, social media is used to spread the bullying and get more kids in on it. In this day and age, all it takes is one photo snapped of you (sometimes with your consent and stupid, other times just catching you by surprise in a weird spot) and that's the end of your social life at a critical age.

And you can't fight everybody.

If all it takes is a picture of you or some verbal shit talking getting put online to make you feel like your social life has ended then maybe the problem is bigger than just being bullied. It ain't hard to make friends. I am about as shy as they come (insanely introverted, high social anxiety) and I have always been this way. Its just the way I am wired.. But I never had problems making friends - I just never introduced myself to anyone, everyone who became friends with me I either met by them introducing themselves or through friends I already had. That is still how I am. I've literally met all my friends through them introducing themselves and then through me meeting their friends and becoming friends with them as well. But still, somehow, bullying never was an issue in my life because I learned how to deal with it and my parents made sure I knew I could trust them if I had a problem.

Again though, you take the kids out of the situation, you solve the problem. They got fucked with at a party? Don't let them party with those people anymore. They got a nasty text message or message online? Block texts from that number/person. Someone got a pic of them and put it online of them being an idiot? Maybe tell them to post a comment on the pic in a self deprecating sort of way. Kids need to learn to take this shit with a grain of salt and show that they can laugh at themselves. None of us are anywhere close to perfect, we all do stupid shit, we all fail, all the time. That should be the first lesson in life. When a kid shows they know that, other kids learn to respect them because people almost universally like a person that doesn't take themselves too seriously.

Dubious Quality: The Bully (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-bully.html)

Trade him to NE - he'd fit right in.

Dennard.

Talib.

Gronkowski.

Blount.

Thompkins.

Hernandez.


I assume you're talking about Incognito. Nobody exemplifies "Just Win, Baby" like the current Pats.

I think every team in the league could handle these rehab projects if they dealt with it like the Pats. You fuck up, you're gone. Give me your gobstopper and good day, sir.

I assume you're talking about Incognito. Nobody exemplifies "Just Win, Baby" like the current Pats.

It goes back a lot further than the current Pats. That's just a moneyball/market inefficiency they've recognized, which works out really well as long as you have leadership within the players, and a secure coach with the power to boot anyone he doesn't like.

Id probably have a hard time wanting to do anything extra if I was getting treated like shit like going optional mini camps.Haha... "optional". Pats had 1 player out of 90 skip OTA's, Brandon Spikes, and there's a decent amount of speculation that that's tied in to why he hasn't received a contract extension despite being a really good 2-down linebacker against the run. (And if we're tying it back to Martin... I'm pretty sure Spikes is on the opposite end of the bullying spectrum.)

Again though, you take the kids out of the situation, you solve the problem.

Some have TRIED, but thanks to it being online it follows them. That's the part you are missing. Kids have committed suicide because they CAN'T get out of or away from the situation.

It goes back a lot further than the current Pats. That's just a moneyball/market inefficiency they've recognized, which works out really well as long as you have leadership within the players, and a secure coach with the power to boot anyone he doesn't like.

Yeah. I just disagreed with the implication that the Pats are above any messiness and would be a perfect home for Martin.

Dennard.

Talib.

Gronkowski.

Blount.

Thompkins.

Hernandez.


I assume you're talking about Incognito. Nobody exemplifies "Just Win, Baby" like the current Pats.One of these things is not like the other... unless you're a PFT commenter who really thinks partying and banging girls is as bad as getting arrested. You also have Thompkins, who was arrested 7x and kicked out of HS 3x before the age of 19 but hasn't been arrested since, was named captain of 2 different teams and kept up at least a 3.0 GPA every semester - maybe he's another Aaron Hernandez fooling everyone in the organization and media, but I'd like to believe some people can turn their lives around. Blount's case is weird - he literally called up my HS coach last week because he wanted to see a HS game in the area on Friday night (picked us because our mascot is the Patriots) and was gregarious and polite the whole time - so I have no idea how to reconcile that with the guy who punched a Boise State player after the game. He's also never been arrested fwiw. I won't defend Dennard or Talib, but I think every team in the NFL has a player or two like that - and on-field it's hard to argue that we haven't gotten a ton of surplus value out of them compared to their acquisition costs. And it's hard to argue the Patriots are somehow out on a limb here when the Super Bowl champion's captain (and immediately hired ESPN analyst) was convicted of destroying evidence in a murder investigation.

Yeah. I just disagreed with the implication that the Pats are above any messiness and would be a perfect home for Martin.I agree that they're probably not much different than most teams in that regard, but they are better than the Dolphins in this specific situation. Obviously it's really hard to say without hindsight just what Philbin should have done differently, but Belichick has cracked down on it in the past (multiple coaches from other teams have probably done the same thing, but I just happened to see Tedy Bruschi address this last week).Jacob (Bethlehem, Pa.)

Tedy, I was surprised to see what was going on in Miami with a starting OL to leave the team allegedly due to hazing. Obviously we're used to seeing rookie haircuts and similar things for first-year players, but how much of this really goes on? Have you seen something similar, and how would it be handled in New England?
Tedy Bruschi (12:27 PM)

Here's an example of how it was handled when things got out of hand for us. When I was a rookie, I was asked to take the entire LB group to dinner. It cost me $1,700. As it got up to my 8th and 9th year, it turned into an entire team dinner and all the rookies paying for the dinner. That bill sometimes reached upwards of $30,000. Word got out that it was getting out of hand. I remember one captains meeting when Bill Belichick said 'That's enough of that. It's getting out of hand, guys.' Joe Philbin should have been all over this.

This isn't a junior high locker room. This is a business, period. And there are certain things that are and are not acceptable. Lest anyone think I'm overly sensitive, I spent the last 8 years working daily in construction. That's not a particularly soft business. And what RI did was unacceptable. Period.

What Incongnito did is inexcusable. It's also a pattern of behavior stretching back to 2012 (Page not found | Extra Mustard - SI.com (http://extramustard.si.com/2013/11/04/richie-incognitos-twitter-history-with-jonathan-martin/)). If that's what happens in public, then we can reasonably assume what happened in private was just as bad or worse and it probably happened on a regular basis.

For the people who said what Martin walked out on wasn't much, well you never know what is the final straw. On a personal level, I worked (for) with a racist, drunken asshole. I'll call him PigVomit. PigVomit was just a vile waste of human skin. I put up with his shit for months. You know what made me snap and walk out? It wasn't even a comment directed at me. The asshole was bragging on how he was so impressive during a sales call that the female prospect was coming so hard "they needed sawdust on the floor to clean up the mess. Then he started making orgasm noises. I looked around and saw the look on the faces on the early-to-mid 20s girls who were working on their first job. They were embarrassed, distraught and utterly beaten down. They wouldn't complain, but they would just slink away, possibly personally and professionally damaged for a long while.

I had it. I packed my shit and walked out. Because I had a few more years under my belt, I went home and called the VP and told him simply that I would not be coming back to that office if PigVomit was still there. I had already mentioned something to him once. So he started asking me questions and I calmly but very clearly made my position heard. The next call was from the VP of HR, who needless to say was dismayed at the report. PigVomit was gone two days later.

The final straw for me wasn't even directed at me. So what set Martin off was just the culmination of months of abuse.

Blaming Martin seems awfully close to saying something like "she didn't fight back too hard, so she must have wanted it".

Son, we live in a world that has running backs. These running backs have to be defended by men with helmets. Who's going to do it? You? You, sportswriters? I have a greater responsbility then you could possibly fathom. You weep for Martin, and you curse the Dolphins. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Martin's departure, while tragic, probably saved yards. An my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves yards. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about in postgame interviews, you WANT me on that line, you NEED me on that line. We use words like stunt, blitz, a-gap. We use the words as the backbone of a life spent defending the read option. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps writing about the very sport that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a helmet, and get in a three point stance. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

:D

That was ridiculously fantastic.

Quote of the Year.

Has anyone made the Private Pile reference. Although the difference in the Marines is that they build you back up.

The dolphins coaching staff should be canned for telling the known anger management guy to take care of this.

Anyone who's played organized contact sports has seen some level of this outdated stupid shit.

Our society and culture need far more soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful and far less loud, ragey, roided meatheads.

Dennard.

Talib.

Gronkowski.

Blount.

Thompkins.

Hernandez.


I assume you're talking about Incognito. Nobody exemplifies "Just Win, Baby" like the current Pats.

I meant Martin.

More weird shit out of Miami...

Ryan Tannehill says Incognito and Martin were best friends | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/ryan-tannehill-says-incognito-and-martin-were-best-friends/)

Best friends? I've never sent a friend a text saying I was going to kill them.

Our society and culture need far more soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful and far less loud, ragey, roided meatheads.

+1

Yeah. I just disagreed with the implication that the Pats are above any messiness and would be a perfect home for Martin.

My implication is not that the Pats were above messiness, but more that they'd be a better fit for his intellectual nature (due to the city of Boston, not the team itself). Was a "Boston is a smart city" comment and not a "PATS WOO" comment.

I'm sooooo tired of the Miami non-story. Yet I'm pretty sure it's just beginning.

I'm sorry, not a football player, not in that locker room and reading things out of context.....just seems silly and pointless to judge. Christ if people on this board or the wrong people in life heard some of the things I've said out of context I'd be locked up.

And while I realize I'm treading/crossing the blame the victim line, there is clearly something not quite right with Martin.

Our society and culture need far more soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful and far less loud, ragey, roided meatheads.

Not necessarily for several million a year on the OL.

Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9937464/miami-dolphins-players-support-richie-incognito)

It's not just Tannehill. Add Tyson Clabo & Bryan Hartline as well.

Surely I'm not the only person getting a bit of a Royce White vibe around this story.

if people on this board or the wrong people in life heard some of the things I've said out of context I'd be locked up.

Or if you work for many companies and said those words (in context or otherwise) from the video and texts, then that would be grounds for corrective action and termination, and perhaps criminal penalties. Something has to effect behavior change and that's one way of doing it.

I'm sooooo tired of the Miami non-story. Yet I'm pretty sure it's just beginning.

I'm sorry, not a football player, not in that locker room and reading things out of context.....just seems silly and pointless to judge. Christ if people on this board or the wrong people in life heard some of the things I've said out of context I'd be locked up.

And while I realize I'm treading/crossing the blame the victim line, there is clearly something not quite right with Martin.

In what context would calling someone a half-nigger be considered a-ok in your book?

Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9937464/miami-dolphins-players-support-richie-incognito)

It's not just Tannehill. Add Tyson Clabo & Bryan Hartline as well.

Surely I'm not the only person getting a bit of a Royce White vibe around this story.

It's a bit of both. I do think Martin has some issues of his own most likely but Incognito seems like a psychopath.

If I call you a pompous dickbag who fucks goats, and you kill yourself over it then it is your fault. Thankfully I would never do such a thing.

I suppose if you rape a passed out drunk girl it would be her fault.Thankfully you would never do such a thing.

I suppose if you rape a passed out drunk girl it would be her fault.Thankfully you would never do such a thing.

Funny, because I believe that is essentially the next progression in blaming the victim. Looking at the Steubenville case, I think it's pretty clear that it was the victim's fault for getting drunk and her parent's fault for letting her, amirite? That's where the blame lays, at least according to some here based on their comments about who is to blame for the bullying.

While I can agree with some of the sentiment that we need to better educate parents and kids about taking precautionary steps for themselves to prevent bullying, rape, etc., it's ridiculous to place any of the blame at their feet when they become victims. I think the bigger issue is the perpetrators themselves and the societal cultures, be it rape, locker room bullying, etc. that need to be broken down and addressed. Saying simply that "If the parents actually gave a shit they could have figured things out for themselves" is just wrong.

I have no idea what to make of the Tannehill comments... I can't imagine a young promising QB being willing to put his ass on the line for a player who is never going to play for the team again, especially as that would be so easily disproven. Possible he's trying to make his coach sound better or even himself sound better but still, I can't imagine he's just making shit up.

Incognito is obviously a guy with a lot of issues and there's absolutely no excuse for some of the language he's been using but it does put those VM's in a different light for me.

Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9937464/miami-dolphins-players-support-richie-incognito)

It's not just Tannehill. Add Tyson Clabo & Bryan Hartline as well.

Surely I'm not the only person getting a bit of a Royce White vibe around this story.

This is not surprising at all. Most studies on school bullying show that bullies often have strong peer support and high levels of social standing. As much as anything, this is likely a testament to how fucked up the current culture of the Miami locker room is, particularly as Incognito was considered a leader on the team.

All white dudes..

I suppose if you rape a passed out drunk girl it would be her fault.Thankfully you would never do such a thing.

That's what I like about you, your logic is impeccable.

All white dudes..


Yeah, that Pouncey dude looks Swedish. So does Randy Starks now that you mention it

“He’s a good guy; I never had a problem with him,” said defensive tackle Randy Starks, who is black. When asked whether Incognito was a racist, Starks replied: “No, not at all. Haven’t gotten that idea all these years.”

More & more, this is starting to look like Martin has issues that Incognito may have stumbled (however horribly clumsily) right into.
Miami Dolphins players mostly voice support for Richie Incognito - Miami Dolphins - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/06/3735089/miami-dolphins-center-mike-pouncey.html)

“He treated him like a little brother,” Clabo said. “They did a lot of stuff together, so if he had a problem with the way he was treating him, he had a funny way of showing it.”

When trying to explain Martin’s actions the past week, which have threatened to end both Martin’s career and Incognito’s, Clabo said: “I don’t know why he’s doing this. … I think this whole thing is ridiculous.”

Added receiver Brian Hartline: “The people that can hurt you most are the ones closest to you, and that’s exactly what happened.”

Just how close? When Martin wanted to hit the town, he wouldn’t go without Incognito.

They strolled down Bourbon Street together. They sat together on team flights. They went to Heat playoff games. Big Weirdo was seen, at least by Incognito, as a term of affection.

And when Martin got into a practice-field scrap with Dion Jordan a few weeks ago, Incognito was the first to get his linemate’s back.

Some have TRIED, but thanks to it being online it follows them. That's the part you are missing. Kids have committed suicide because they CAN'T get out of or away from the situation.

It seems like it is really easy not to read stuff people post online about you.

Maybe Martin is bat-shit fucking crazy.

It seems like it is really easy not to read stuff people post online about you.

It is not a matter of the victim reading it. It is everyone else that does. If the person bullying you is followed on Twitter by everyone you know at school...

The more I read about this, the more I think that Martin just wasn't into football and wanted a way to keep getting paid. The steps he took were not "off the cuff" things a normal person facing bullying would do. He saved all these recordings/texts. When he got called out for missing OTAs, he blamed the locker room environment (in the offseason?!). When he left the Miami facility, he immediately had his representatives send a formal complaint with full documentation. Then, after all his ducks were in a row, he checked himself into a hospital just long enough to have it documented before flying cross country to Cali.

Seems like this was fairly calculated on his part to keep getting paid and not have to play football for Miami. Maybe I'm wrong and I couldn't give two sh*ts what happens to Incognito - he's had this coming since Nebraska. But, I think the more people dig, the more Martin's true intentions will start to surface. This just doesn't smell like "poor 2nd year guy got bullied and then had enough and cracked". He's too smart for that.

Or he was smart enough, as well as self aware enough, to know that one day this would get out of hand and hed need proof. I have a friend who used to work for an NBA team and one of the players would "jokingly" hit on her frequently. She didnt think it was a really big deal and she wasnt very bothered but she was also smart enough to save every single text and email he sent her just in case.

This thread has turned into an employment lawyer's wet dream in terms of juror mindsets for hostile environment and retaliation cases. Keep it going boys!

It is not a matter of the victim reading it. It is everyone else that does. If the person bullying you is followed on Twitter by everyone you know at school...

Yep, and I'm pretty sure that happened in one if not both of the examples I listed.

Also, I think Lathum has a valid point on the victim blaming and drawing the parallel to rape.

Richie Incognito considered 'honorary black man' by Miami Dolphins teammates | Audibles - SI.com (http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/06/richie-incognito-honorary-black-man-miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin/?sct=obnetwork)

The two most interesting excerpts to me...One of the lingering mysteries in the Dolphins’ messy Richie Incognito-Jonathan Martin case has been the lack of backlash toward Incognito from within the team’s locker room, despite Incognito referring to Martin as a “half-n—–” on one voicemail.

We may now have an answer, unusual as it may be. Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald reported Wednesday that Incognito is considered “an honorary black man” by his teammates.

“Richie is honarary,” one player who left the Dolphins this offseason told me today. “I don’t expect you to understand because you’re not black. But being a black guy, being a brother is more than just about skin color. It’s about how you carry yourself. How you play. Where you come from. What you’ve experienced. A lot of things.”Which circles the whole discussion back around to that touchy subject of Martin’s relationship with his teammates. Whereas Incognito apparently was “an honorary black man,” the biracial Martin was not, per Salguero.

“Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito.

“Another former Dolphins employee told me Martin is considered ‘soft’ by his teammates and that’s a reason he’s not readily accepted by some of the players, particularly the black players,” Salguero wrote. “His background — Stanford educated and the son of highly educated people — was not necessarily seen as a strength or a positive by some players and it perpetuated in the way Martin carried himself.”Back to an earlier comment, it's sounding more and more like around his teammates, Incognito was "allowed" to use the n-word pretty much just like the black guys did, and that's a big part of why we're not seeing any backlash from the Dolphins about it.

Richie Incognito considered 'honorary black man' by Miami Dolphins teammates | Audibles - SI.com (http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/06/richie-incognito-honorary-black-man-miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin/?sct=obnetwork)

The two most interesting excerpts to me...Back to an earlier comment, it's sounding more and more like around his teammates, Incognito was "allowed" to use the n-word pretty much just like the black guys did, and that's a big part of why we're not seeing any backlash from the Dolphins about it.

Which is the type of thing I meant when I said out of context.

Richie Incognito considered 'honorary black man' by Miami Dolphins teammates | Audibles - SI.com (http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/06/richie-incognito-honorary-black-man-miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin/?sct=obnetwork)

The two most interesting excerpts to me...Back to an earlier comment, it's sounding more and more like around his teammates, Incognito was "allowed" to use the n-word pretty much just like the black guys did, and that's a big part of why we're not seeing any backlash from the Dolphins about it.

That locker room sounds like a HBO special.

If he was given a pass to use the word, does the permission get taken away when it is used in such a degrading way? Ive heard when its used in a fun joking way but that certainly didnt sound like it.

If he was given a pass to use the word, does the permission get taken away when it is used in such a degrading way? Ive heard when its used in a fun joking way but that certainly didnt sound like it.I think what *should* be clear by now is that as outsiders we don't have a full understanding of what was and wasn't "acceptable." All I have are my observations, and one of those observations is that everything I've read and seen makes it look like the players on the Dolphins--including the black players--would rather have Incognito than Martin as a teammate even after hearing the information from that voicemail. That doesn't mean that they are "right," but it should cast a little more clarity into the Dolphin culture (and probably that of more than a few other teams.)

The n-word, is Incognito a racist thing just seems to be a side show with regard to the real bullying issue.

And, on that note, the Dolphins personnel would be wise to get guys like Tyson Clabo to stop running their traps about Martin needing to "be a man."

The n-word, is Incognito a racist thing just seems to be a side show with regard to the real bullying issue.


This.

Was pretty clear to me from the beginning that his teammates had given him "permission" (or whatever you want to say) to use the word, and the bullying is really more the issue.

The n-word, is Incognito a racist thing just seems to be a side show with regard to the real bullying issue.I agree, but it seems that many can't seem to move past "ZOMFG INcOGNItO Is A RACIST!!!1"

And, on that note, the Dolphins personnel would be wise to get guys like Tyson Clabo to stop running their traps about Martin needing to "be a man."Are they, though? What's the audience here? I think it might be a fine line that they're walking. They don't want to offend the public too much, but at the same time, if a significant portion of NFL players would agree with Clabo, I would think that the Dolphin brass might be concerned that future free agents might not want to sign with a "soft" organization.

I agree, but it seems that many can't seem to move past "ZOMFG INcOGNItO Is A RACIST!!!1"


I know you are probably meaning these people at large, but this thread really hasn't zeroed in on this (rightfully). The racial epithet seems to be the rope with which Incognito will be hung, but the interesting discussion is whether he/the Dolphins deserve to be hung here.

Jeff Ireland of Miami Dolphins suggested Jonathan Martin physically confront Richie Incognito - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9938868/jeff-ireland-miami-dolphins-suggested-jonathan-martin-physically-confront-richie-incognito)

Miami Dolphins general manager Jeff Ireland suggested offensive tackle Jonathan Martin physically confront guard Richie Incognito -- even saying he should "punch" him -- as a means of dealing with how he was being treated, Pro Football Talk reported Wednesday night.

I know you are probably meaning these people at large, but this thread really hasn't zeroed in on this (rightfully). For the most part, no, but at least a couple of people have gone there. But beyond that, there's this: if there's an entirely different accepted standard of language in that culture, then it's at least somewhat reasonable to assume that there might be an entirely different accepted standard of what constitutes "bullying." And that piece is pretty relevant here. Ultimately, I'm getting at what I've been saying for years here: that I find it humorous that people follow a barbaric sport that has a barbaric culture and then get indignant when they find out that some/many of the participants are...barbaric.

True, definitely true. And this might be one point where some of it changes.

This Dolphins fiasco is as insane as it is sad.

I think what *should* be clear by now is that as outsiders we don't have a full understanding of what was and wasn't "acceptable." All I have are my observations, and one of those observations is that everything I've read and seen makes it look like the players on the Dolphins--including the black players--would rather have Incognito than Martin as a teammate even after hearing the information from that voicemail. That doesn't mean that they are "right," but it should cast a little more clarity into the Dolphin culture (and probably that of more than a few other teams.)

Sorry, but there's no situation where that's OK. The behavior that became acceptable in the locker room is a disaster. It's like a 1960s fraternity house. There's a reason why we don't behave that way any more even if you take Martin's motives out of the equation.

Sorry, but there's no situation where that's OK. The behavior that became acceptable in the locker room is a disaster. It's like a 1960s fraternity house. There's a reason why we don't behave that way any more even if you take Martin's motives out of the equation.Exactly where did I say that it was "OK?" I repeat....I find it humorous that people follow a barbaric sport that has a barbaric culture and then get indignant when they find out that some/many of the participants are...barbaric.

Are they, though? What's the audience here? I think it might be a fine line that they're walking. They don't want to offend the public too much, but at the same time, if a significant portion of NFL players would agree with Clabo, I would think that the Dolphin brass might be concerned that future free agents might not want to sign with a "soft" organization.

I'm sure my "friends" in the Plaintiff's bar are quite the audience.

I'm sure my "friends" in the Plaintiff's bar are quite the audience.Ahhhhh. Good point, and I suppose that makes the line even more fine. I'd expect Martin to be an outcast forever if he were to sue, but given that he probably already is, he might have little/nothing to lose. That said, I've read some reports that Martin was laughing about the message from Incognito months ago. I wonder if that's true and how that would play in a lawsuit...

Exactly where did I say that it was "OK?" I repeat....

Sorry, my intent was not to say that you said that. I was referring more to the culture these players are bringing forward that somehow it's OK if everyone is in on it. It's not.

I think what *should* be clear by now is that as outsiders we don't have a full understanding of what was and wasn't "acceptable."

Hmm ... how many cultures could we not say that about (if we stopped to ponder them more)?

That's a thought I've had more than once during this topic really, what someone mentioned about context. I thought about the way my closest friends & colleagues deal with/have dealt with each other, thought further about how my son & his friends (and their peers) interact with each other.

Groups -- of a variety of types -- have their own lines of what's "normal" or "acceptable". While society as a whole is free to judge them as it sees fit, I'm not sure how much weight those judgements should/do hold in many situations, at least not nearly as much as the judgements made within the confines of the group.

I really can't get my head around this. My first inclination was to go after the Dolphins/Incognito based on the substance of the texts/vm. Then, Martin did a lot of odd things as the timeline came out (including hold these for over 6 months and the whole hospital check-in thing). I think it's best to wait for more information to come out before making a conclusion either way.

I will say this. I have a few buddies who don't exactly text the most PC things. One sent a group one out after the Bears beat GB (and he had a few beverages) that I could easily send to his employer and make him look bad. I wonder how much of this was Incognito "banter" with Martin as opposed to him legitimately threatening/bullying him. Granted, what qualifies as banter from Richie is probably far below what anyone would normally send (even after drinking to a buddy) - but I'm not sure Richie sent them with malice or that Martin took them as offensive as they appear now when they actually happened. They seem more to be making up a thread of evidence in this case by Martin against Miami (and really the NFL) about a locker room culture that many could find offensive. Which, to many, might not be a bad thing in its own right.

Every HR director in America cringed at Ireland's suggestion.

Wasn't Jeff Ireland the guy who asked if Dez Bryant's mom was a crack whore or something like that?

If so, he really doesn't seem to exhibit very good judgment at times.

Rick Reilly is generally reviled as the worst columnist at ESPN, but this column was much better than I thought it would be.

Reilly: NFL becoming a guilty pleasure - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9932209/nfl-becoming-guilty-pleasure)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>I only spent two weeks on the Dolphins when Ireland was the GM. In that short time he won the award for worst GM in my career. <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23jerk&amp;src=hash">#jerk</a></p>&mdash; Sage Rosenfels (@SageRosenfels18) <a href="https://twitter.com/SageRosenfels18/statuses/398449833343602688">November 7, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Well, Miami is playing about the best image of "bad guy" possible. Between elevating Richie boy to team leader and having a GM with a checkered past of bad decisions, they have quite the reputation. The funniest part of this is how Ireland and Philbin were "forced" to kick off Chad Ochocinco from the team in Hard Knocks because of his off-the-field behavior - yet they make Incognito a leader and trade for "Love Boat icon" and domestic abuser Bryant McKinnie.

Well, Miami is playing about the best image of "bad guy" possible. Between elevating Richie boy to team leader and having a GM with a checkered past of bad decisions, they have quite the reputation. The funniest part of this is how Ireland and Philbin were "forced" to kick off Chad Ochocinco from the team in Hard Knocks because of his off-the-field behavior - yet they make Incognito a leader and trade for "Love Boat icon" and domestic abuser Bryant McKinnie.

I have a feeling that Miami will completely clean house come the off-season. Time for yet another rebuilding project.

I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Dick Vermeil or Tony Dungy to come in as a consultant.

It is not a matter of the victim reading it. It is everyone else that does. If the person bullying you is followed on Twitter by everyone you know at school...

If people constantly bully you on twitter or whatever other form of media they decide to use, and you're making it fun for them by getting all up in arms about it constantly, then that's what the problem is. Don't take yourself too seriously.
Without victims, there can't be bullies.

The way people seem to teach how to deal with bullies by saying stupid shit like "Those words hurt and I don't like them" or whatever only makes a bully want to fuck with you more. If you just laugh at what they say and act like you "are" whatever they say you are, they have no more character to assassinate and eventually everyone forgets about the one time that bully called you a fag or a slut. You show it doesn't bother you, it ends. That's the cycle. I've never run into a situation where the bullying didn't stop after the person they were bullying showed they weren't bothered by it. There aren't many bullies willing to put in the work to get to someone they know isn't bothered by their shenanigans, because there is always an easier target.

Every HR director in America cringed at Ireland's suggestion.

Then again, a lot of America cringes at what HR directors believe is "appropriate" or "proper" or whatever.

That doesn't mean that they are "right," but it should cast a little more clarity into the Dolphin culture (and probably that of more than a few other teams.)

I agree completely, this speaks to a culture around a team as much as anything else (and to an extent is backed up by the other Dolphins who are defending Incognito). Unfortunately, it looks from here to be a poisonous one.

Grantland had a couple of interesting takes on this whole thing:

The Miami Dolphins and Everything That Will Never Make Sense - The Triangle Blog - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/81380/the-miami-dolphins-and-everything-that-will-never-make-sense)

Richie Incognito, Jonathan Martin, and the Miami Dolphins bullying scandal - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939308/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-bullying-scandal)

Ultimately, I'm getting at what I've been saying for years here: that I find it humorous that people follow a barbaric sport that has a barbaric culture and then get indignant when they find out that some/many of the participants are...barbaric.

Bout right

Now HERE'S an interesting take:

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King (http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a0&eref=sihp)

it should cast a little more clarity into the culture of the NFL/sports in general

.

Now HERE'S an interesting take:

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King (http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a0&eref=sihp)

But if he says he doesn't keep in touch with them, and he said he was cut before seeing if Martin paid for a rookie dinner, then how can he speak about anything else that did or didn't happen after he was cut? He's going off of second hand information like everyone else on those events.

Probably true, Matthean. But my guess would be that in the US, the NFL culture is the one with the biggest departure from societal norms.

Now HERE'S an interesting take:

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King (http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a0&eref=sihp)



From the beginning, when he was drafted in April 2012, Martin did not seem to want to be one of the group. He came off as standoffish and shy to the rest of the offensive linemen. He couldn’t look anyone in the eye, which was puzzling for a football player at this level on a team full of grown-ass men. We all asked the same question: Why won’t he be open with us? What’s with the wall being put up?

I stopped reading.

Now HERE'S an interesting take:

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King (http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a0&eref=sihp)

Good read.

But if he says he doesn't keep in touch with them, and he said he was cut before seeing if Martin paid for a rookie dinner, then how can he speak about anything else that did or didn't happen after he was cut?
He doesn't really speak to stuff that happened after he was cut, other than to say that the "get-up-from-the-table-when-someone-sits" junior-high gag happened for years. That article pushes me further in a direction that I was already starting to go after digamma's comment this morning: that Martin didn't fit in, but being very smart and from a legal-thinking family realized that the accepted norms in the NFL, when taken outside of the confines of the locker room, could net him a nice payday.

Probably true, Matthean. But my guess would be that in the US, the NFL culture is the one with the biggest departure from societal norms.

Given a lot of what passes for societal norms today, I'm not sure that the NFL culture might not be preferable in a lot of respects.

That locker room sounds like a HBO special.

They had one.

So is Steve Smith still a thug for laying out Ken Lucas?

He doesn't really speak to stuff that happened after he was cut, other than to say that the "get-up-from-the-table-when-someone-sits" junior-high gag happened for years. That article pushes me further in a direction that I was already starting to go after digamma's comment this morning: that Martin didn't fit in, but being very smart and from a legal-thinking family realized that the accepted norms in the NFL, when taken outside of the confines of the locker room, could net him a nice payday.
This seems like the mostly likely summary to me as well given what we know. Kudos to Martin for finding a way out of Miami and still getting paid. Although, I think the "he's a poor bully victim" narrative might take a hit if this proves to be correct.

I think it's best to wait for more information to come out before making a conclusion either way.

This seems like the mostly likely summary to me as well given what we know. Kudos to Martin for finding a way out of Miami and still getting paid. Although, I think the "he's a poor bully victim" narrative might take a hit if this proves to be correct.

:D

Groups -- of a variety of types -- have their own lines of what's "normal" or "acceptable". While society as a whole is free to judge them as it sees fit, I'm not sure how much weight those judgements should/do hold in many situations, at least not nearly as much as the judgements made within the confines of the group.

In this case, I think, that society's judgement has a lot more weight due to the fact that the NFL is a business and the members of the society is the customer. So, they can believe what they want as to what's normal or acceptable in their in group - but I'm sure if it starts costing them money, they'll want to put a kibbosh on it (or act like they are at any rate).

Rick Reilly is generally reviled as the worst columnist at ESPN, but this column was much better than I thought it would be.

Reilly: NFL becoming a guilty pleasure - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9932209/nfl-becoming-guilty-pleasure)

A great column and it makes a lot of sense. Too much sense :(.

:D
Come on. Saying that something is the most likely but still waiting before coming to a final conclusion isn't mutually exclusive.

A great column and it makes a lot of sense. Too much sense :(. I guess I still feel like no one is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to do this. They're adults choosing to make enormous sums in money in this profession.

Come on. Saying that something is the most likely but still waiting before coming to a final conclusion isn't mutually exclusive.

While I will still hold out to see whether you are right on this point, kudos to you for being right on this point.

I guess I still feel like no one is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to do this. They're adults choosing to make enormous sums in money in this profession.

Actually when they start on the path that ends in it they're poorly-informed kids.

Actually when they start on the path that ends in it they're poorly-informed kids.I did a number of things as a poorly-informed kid that I stopped doing in high school, college, and most certainly after college.

The way people seem to teach how to deal with bullies by saying stupid shit like "Those words hurt and I don't like them" or whatever only makes a bully want to fuck with you more. If you just laugh at what they say and act like you "are" whatever they say you are, they have no more character to assassinate and eventually everyone forgets about the one time that bully called you a fag or a slut. You show it doesn't bother you, it ends. That's the cycle. I've never run into a situation where the bullying didn't stop after the person they were bullying showed they weren't bothered by it. There aren't many bullies willing to put in the work to get to someone they know isn't bothered by their shenanigans, because there is always an easier target.Yeah, that's just wrong. I agree the best way to handle almost all initial bullying is to shrug it off and just be confident in who you are, so suggesting that you act like a fag or a slut is asinine and generally leads into a downward spiral where it goes from isolated incident that people will forget about into defining who you are as a person, and since most bullying occurs with kids, it can define you as a person until you graduate HS or switch schools. And, yes, there are certain bullies/groups who will continue targeting a specific person even after they do outwardly act like it doesn't bother them. These are rare and atypical, but that's why they end up being the most dangerous situations.

Wow, this Martin thing is getting nasty (as always with the caveat.. if it's true.)

(Martin's agent) claims in the statement that an unnamed teammate said this to Martin: “We are going to run train on your sister. . . . She loves me. I am going to f–k her without a condom and c** in her c***.”

This is just getting worse and worse for the dolphins. Sure, you can punch one bully, but what do you do when several people are doing the bullying? You can't punch them all....

This is just getting worse and worse for the dolphins. Sure, you can punch one bully, but what do you do when several people are doing the bullying? You can't punch them all....

Or his agent is just running with whatever bullshit story he (or his client) can concoct next.

Yeah, sorry Jon.. the fact that he's fully cooperating with the NFL and wants to return instead of filing a lawsuit makes me think that yeah, there's more then a bit of truth to it.

Would also explain why the Dolphins are closing ranks behind Incognito, none of em are clean..

Yeah, sorry Jon.. the fact that he's fully cooperating with the NFL and wants to return instead of filing a lawsuit makes me think that yeah, there's more then a bit of truth to it.

Would also explain why the Dolphins are closing ranks behind Incognito, none of em are clean..

{shrug} We'll all likely believe whatever we believe. But I don't believe there's any chance he'll ever stick with an NFL team. Too many questions, too many lines he's crossed. And seems to have done absolutely nothing right at any point in dealing with this whatever-it-is.

Yeah, sorry Jon.. the fact that he's fully cooperating with the NFL and wants to return instead of filing a lawsuit makes me think that yeah, there's more then a bit of truth to it.

Would also explain why the Dolphins are closing ranks behind Incognito, none of em are clean..
What GM in his right mind would bring Martin in? Maybe if he was Jonathan Ogden in his prime, but he's not nearly good enough to offset the risk of him going AWOL again.

I can't see him playing again anytime soon so I would recommend he get what money he can. I'm pretty sure he and his representatives knew this going in. He's pretty much going nuclear against the Dolphins and I really don't know what other options he has.

Hrm. Yeah, can't take a chance on Martin or a guy like Kerry Rhodes, but you can always take a chance on guys like Incognito, or Al Haynesworth, or Lawrence Phillips, or Maurice Clarett, or Pacman Jones...

Hrm. Yeah, can't take a chance on Martin or a guy like Kerry Rhodes, but you can always take a chance on guys like Incognito, or Al Haynesworth, or Lawrence Phillips, or Maurice Clarett, or Pacman Jones...
I'm not saying it's right, but character/legal issues are more acceptable in a locker room than someone who blows the whistle on other players. It is what it is and this shouldn't be a secret to anyone at this point.

Hrm. Yeah, can't take a chance on Martin or a guy like Kerry Rhodes, but you can always take a chance on guys like Incognito, or Al Haynesworth, or Lawrence Phillips, or Maurice Clarett, or Pacman Jones...

Players know who they'd rather have in the trenches with them.

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King (http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/)

There is also this article. I feel like Martin is making things messier by keeping his mouth shut, but I imagine that is because his lawyer has told him to. Wouldn't be surprised if his parents convinced him to litigate after he talked to them about how he was being picked on. Interesting he and the family shot for the stars and hired the lawyer that got Ryan Braun off and has a grudge against the NFLPA since he was beaten out by Demaurice Smith for the job as head of NFLPA recently. This is shaping up to be a long drawn out thing now.

Edit: Didn't notice Ben already posted this article in the week 9 thread.

Hrm. Yeah, can't take a chance on Martin or a guy like Kerry Rhodes, but you can always take a chance on guys like Incognito, or Al Haynesworth, or Lawrence Phillips, or Maurice Clarett, or Pacman Jones...

Teams will take a chance on anyone who is good. If Martin was a quality NFL tackle, teams would be lining up to sign him. He's not.

If you can play in this league, teams will find a way to make it work.

Players know who they'd rather have in the trenches with them.

Eh, Big Al wasn't even one of those (he has been slammed by former teammates/coaches in DC the past week or so).

I can understand if players think he's going to be lazy or half-assed. But, there have been plenty of lazy players, or players who weasel out of workouts, or sleep through meetings (Hi, Fred Davis!). Is it what...that they won't do their job on the field? He's going to just decide "eh, I'll let this dude sack my qb, not feeling it this play." It's not as if other o-linemen are at physical risk because of his actions (I mean, that's what trenches implies right? He has their back? From what?)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9944012/police-report-filed-richie-incognito-alleged-molestation-2012-no-charges

Looks like its not just a "locker room" thing.

I've always been a huge NFL fan and I am supporter of youth involvement in sports, but as I get older, I'm starting to question whether or not supporting the league and what they value and stand for is something I want to do. The things we invest our time in are a big part of who we are and I wonder if id be better off investing my time in something that more closely resembles the things I want to stand for.

And im not referring to this incident promarily, but the concussion and health issue along with a league that values and welcomes back guys like Vick, Lewis and roethlisberger

I think just listening to where the various talking heads come down on this issue is fascinating, and I am also surprised I havent really seen anyone take the logical (to me at least) combination stance of "Yes, Richie Incognito is a pretty big piece of shit and not a good person, BUT Martin may be a touch over sensitive and at a minimum handled this entire incident wrong."

At first I thought that Martin was, as suggested, building a case for a lawsuit payday. However if that was the intent he made a fairly large tactical error by not reporting it to the Dolphins in a written manner. Then if it continued the organization was implicit in allowing the harrasment. By quitting and walking away (even after a phone call from an agent to a team exec) without giving the team a chance to remedy (whether they would have or not is irrelevant to my point imho) seems like a pretty glaring omission from a fluff suit payday Id think.

I've always felt that football was a lot like truly brilliant comedy. The best and brightest of both draw motivation from a very dark place. For myself (a lowly college scrub) and so many I played with, coached and later mentored over the years the field was an acceptable outlet to unleash the rage pent up inside. For some simply releasing that rage in sufficient, HOWEVER some individuals truly need emotional help and [obviously this is only the opinion of an untrained non professional] the outlet only serves to take the edge off enough to otherwise make them functionally normal and below the radar. This allows them to physically mature and "grow up" acting in a manner that is unacceptable to society as a whole.

SO much of football is about inflicting pain on another person and the best at doing that often dont know when to turn it off. Whether in manifests itself by abusing a spouse, abusing a substance (to inflict pain on your own body), abusing a teammate, or ridiculing and belittling a clerk at the grocery store its part of an inherent nature to inflict pain. The only players Ive ever met that werent motivated this way were purely pleasure seekers and they often exhibited many of the same traits (substance abuse, massive sexual glutony, etc) just for a different fix.

I think this is obvious when you look at former players. I personally know and call close friends I will say 17 former NFL players (not 1 training camp flame outs but guys with real careers) none of them live next to other former or current players. There is just a different mind set to those who play the game at the highest level.

Of course this could all be simplified by what been said early "The guys who play a barbaric game often act barbaric."

Edit: That number of former NFL "friends" comment caused me to stop and count, initially I typed 30 but in actually adding it up Im having trouble getting past 17 or 18 so I changed the number

I think just listening to where the various talking heads come down on this issue is fascinating, and I am also surprised I havent really seen anyone take the logical (to me at least) combination stance of "Yes, Richie Incognito is a pretty big piece of shit and not a good person, BUT Martin may be a touch over sensitive and at a minimum handled this entire incident wrong."

This is probably closest to the correct answer, but it also won't generate clicks or gather listeners.

I think just listening to where the various talking heads come down on this issue is fascinating, and I am also surprised I havent really seen anyone take the logical (to me at least) combination stance of "Yes, Richie Incognito is a pretty big piece of shit and not a good person, BUT Martin may be a touch over sensitive and at a minimum handled this entire incident wrong."

At first I thought that Martin was, as suggested, building a case for a lawsuit payday. However if that was the intent he made a fairly large tactical error by not reporting it to the Dolphins in a written manner. Then if it continued the organization was implicit in allowing the harrasment. By quitting and walking away (even after a phone call from an agent to a team exec) without giving the team a chance to remedy (whether they would have or not is irrelevant to my point imho) seems like a pretty glaring omission from a fluff suit payday Id think.

I've always felt that football was a lot like truly brilliant comedy. The best and brightest of both draw motivation from a very dark place. For myself (a lowly college scrub) and so many I played with, coached and later mentored over the years the field was an acceptable outlet to unleash the rage pent up inside. For some simply releasing that rage in sufficient, HOWEVER some individuals truly need emotional help and [obviously this is only the opinion of an untrained non professional] the outlet only serves to take the edge off enough to otherwise make them functionally normal and below the radar. This allows them to physically mature and "grow up" acting in a manner that is unacceptable to society as a whole.

SO much of football is about inflicting pain on another person and the best at doing that often dont know when to turn it off. Whether in manifests itself by abusing a spouse, abusing a substance (to inflict pain on your own body), abusing a teammate, or ridiculing and belittling a clerk at the grocery store its part of an inherent nature to inflict pain. The only players Ive ever met that werent motivated this way were purely pleasure seekers and they often exhibited many of the same traits (substance abuse, massive sexual glutony, etc) just for a different fix.

I think this is obvious when you look at former players. I personally know and call close friends I will say 17 former NFL players (not 1 training camp flame outs but guys with real careers) none of them live next to other former or current players. There is just a different mind set to those who play the game at the highest level.

Of course this could all be simplified by what been said early "The guys who play a barbaric game often act barbaric."

Edit: That number of former NFL "friends" comment caused me to stop and count, initially I typed 30 but in actually adding it up Im having trouble getting past 17 or 18 so I changed the number

Playing hockey in high school there were some titanic assholes on the team when I was an underclassman. I mean you would be amazed at some of the shit that went on in the locker room. Fights, tea bagging, the whole 9 yards. And I used to have to hang out with them and pretend to get along for the team. But it takes a psychic toll on you. I stopped playing after high school pretty much because I was tired of dealing with the assholes and didn't see that changing in college.

So I can only imagine what happens when you start paying a titanic asshole(s) 5M a year or whatever. It's easy to say "oh yeah derp, he should slug him in the face and not take that shit, derp derp." The reality is most people don't like hitting other people in the face in normal life, football player or otherwise and it's bullshit to blame Martin for not having that in his character. Also, comparing this situation to regular bullying doesn't make any sense.

If you strip all the hyperbole aside, it really boils down to a failure of leadership that put incognito in a position he was incredibly poorly suited for based on his history and almost guaranteed this outcome. It's the coach that should pay the price. Incognito should obviously double down on whatever anger mgmt counseling he was getting before.

I'm not saying it's right, but character/legal issues are more acceptable in a locker room than someone who blows the whistle on other players. It is what it is and this shouldn't be a secret to anyone at this point.

That would be a funny position to take - he could apply for whistle blower status and go live with Snowden in the Moscow airport. It is actually what this feels like somewhat.

If you strip all the hyperbole aside, it really boils down to a failure of leadership that put incognito in a position he was incredibly poorly suited for based on his history and almost guaranteed this outcome. It's the coach that should pay the price. Incognito should obviously double down on whatever anger mgmt counseling he was getting before.

How is the coach to blame if, as multiple players report, Martin tagged along with Incognito everywhere? Actively seeking him out as a companion on the road and whatnot. Not exactly a red flag for there being a problem.

How is the coach to blame if, as multiple players report, Martin tagged along with Incognito everywhere? Actively seeking him out as a companion on the road and whatnot. Not exactly a red flag for there being a problem.

I think the red flag is the female who was harassed at the golf tourney.
A Dolphins team function.
She filed charges, later dropped them and now has a signed non disclosure agreement. IE she was paid. The attack happened at a Dolphins team function. The Dolphins were aware of his behavior and may have in fact paid her off. Later they appointed him to the senior morality counsel?

Yeah bad judgement there.

How is the coach to blame if, as multiple players report, Martin tagged along with Incognito everywhere? Actively seeking him out as a companion on the road and whatnot. Not exactly a red flag for there being a problem.

Plenty of red flags.

Richie Incognito’s troubled timeline dates back to early college days | Shutdown Corner - Yahoo Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/richie-incognito-troubled-timeline-dates-back-early-college-224648711--nfl.html)

I've said my piece and I don't expect to change your viewpoint on this. We view leadership and responsibility differently and that's fine.

I think the red flag is the female who was harassed at the golf tourney.

Then again ...
The original police report states that the alleged incident happened at the Turnberry Resort & Club in Aventura, but no charges were ever filed against Incognito.

Lots of allegedly there. Do I have any problem believing that the guy could turn into a complete roaring ass if he was drunk? Nope.

Do I feel like we know what really happened that day? Nope.

She knew what she was getting into volunteering at these sorts of events. Maybe she can't handle the culture of volunteering at NFL events?

How is the coach to blame if, as multiple players report, Martin tagged along with Incognito everywhere? Actively seeking him out as a companion on the road and whatnot. Not exactly a red flag for there being a problem.

Well, I think you're making a leap here. If Philbin received a report that Incognito was harassing Martin, then, at the very least, Philbin needed to have a sit-down meeting with Incognito and Martin, discuss the allegations and receive a response from both individuals. Such a sit down would have taken, what, ten minutes?

If Philbin did not take some kind of action to investigate the report, then he is culpable.

Then again ...


Lots of allegedly there. Do I have any problem believing that the guy could turn into a complete roaring ass if he was drunk? Nope.

Do I feel like we know what really happened that day? Nope.

Jon she dropped the charges and signed a confidentiality agreement.
Im not sure how much clearer that can be.

He or They paid her off

I'm confused. Did Philbin (or anyone) receive reports that Incognito (or anyone) was harassing Martin? I was under the impression that the first that Martin or his reps talked with management about anything was after he'd left the team.

That said, it seems that there would be two entirely different things here:

1. Position on the leadership council = bad. With his past history, no way he belongs there. My question is this: who put him there? Management, or is that player-elected?

2. I don't have a real problem if what we've heard is true: one of the seemingly toughest guys on the team is perceived to be good friends with one of the seemingly softest guys on the team, so the coach asks the tough guy to toughen up his buddy.

I've always been a huge NFL fan and I am supporter of youth involvement in sports, but as I get older, I'm starting to question whether or not supporting the league and what they value and stand for is something I want to do. The things we invest our time in are a big part of who we are and I wonder if id be better off investing my time in something that more closely resembles the things I want to stand for.

And im not referring to this incident promarily, but the concussion and health issue along with a league that values and welcomes back guys like Vick, Lewis and roethlisberger

This. I'm torn right now by watching Brady, who is one of the all-time greats, but realistically I can see myself not paying attention anymore after he retires. I've already cut way back to the point where I only watch the Pats.

I've always been a huge NFL fan and I am supporter of youth involvement in sports, but as I get older, I'm starting to question whether or not supporting the league and what they value and stand for is something I want to do. The things we invest our time in are a big part of who we are and I wonder if id be better off investing my time in something that more closely resembles the things I want to stand for.

And im not referring to this incident promarily, but the concussion and health issue along with a league that values and welcomes back guys like Vick, Lewis and roethlisberger

+1 except that I have become a casual fan at best and have steered youth away from getting into the sport.

Jon she dropped the charges and signed a confidentiality agreement. Im not sure how much clearer that can be.

Didn't drop them ... they were never filed.

no charges were ever filed against Incognito.

The absence of charges at the scene isn't exactly a great endorsement of the legitimacy of the allegations. The default these days seems to be arrest the male now, sort out the truth later. And just-go-away money isn't exactly uncommon for celebs dealing with people looking to cash in.

It's certainly not inconceivable that Incognito was a drunken lout of an ass.
It's also not inconceivable that the alleged offense was much more alleged than real.

I'm confused. Did Philbin (or anyone) receive reports that Incognito (or anyone) was harassing Martin? I was under the impression that the first that Martin or his reps talked with management about anything was after he'd left the team.

That said, it seems that there would be two entirely different things here:

1. Position on the leadership council = bad. With his past history, no way he belongs there. My question is this: who put him there? Management, or is that player-elected?

2. I don't have a real problem if what we've heard is true: one of the seemingly toughest guys on the team is perceived to be good friends with one of the seemingly softest guys on the team, so the coach asks the tough guy to toughen up his buddy.

There was an alleged phone call from the agent to Ireland to complain about Incognito, to which Ireland replied Martin should punch him in the face.

Leadership council is appointed by the team according to John Clayton.

Does threatening to "Run the train on your sister" "with no rubber" constitute toughening up though?

I go back and forth. I know Ive heard worse and seen worse than whats been reported...(Hell I watched in a high school a kid get icy hot shoved up his ass on a pen on a team bus...) so there is a part of me that says grow the heck up and toughen up or "Maybe NFL isnt game for you"

But then again, is the league above the law of the land. If Florida has state employee harassment laws and Martin was harassed is this a legal matter.

My question is this: who put him there? Management, or is that player-elected?

Richie Incognito was voted by teammates this season to be a member of the Miami Dolphins' so-called leadership council.

per USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/bell/2013/11/05/bell-richie-incognito/3440153/)

Heh. OK I had misread that storyline to be saying that Ireland had said *after* Martin left the team that Martin "should have" punched Incognito. If he said it *before* he left as the suggested course of action, I'm over here LOLing. That's good stuff! :D

How is the coach to blame if, as multiple players report, Martin tagged along with Incognito everywhere? Actively seeking him out as a companion on the road and whatnot. Not exactly a red flag for there being a problem.

You aren't really familiar with the abused mindset are you?

You see it from high schools to marriages to everywhere. I bet Martin has a history going back a long time, and the team saw the way they were treating him as an easy outlet. If that's how he has always been treated why wouldn't he react any differently? He laughs at how they treat him as a way to fit in. At his own expense.

Why would he hang around with them? Where else is he going to go? He knows that he is a part of the team, but chances are that Incognito was also very nice to him at times too. Sound familiar yet? Many abused women also stay because their man is very nice to them too.

Martin sounds like a man with a low self confidence, a low sense of self worth, who knew that he needed to figure out how to fit in the team somehow, but really didn't know how.

I see a team in denial. I see this situation as pulling up the welcome mat of the NFL and finding the roaches that we didn't want to see but we knew were there. Now that we see them, something has to be done. The culture is totally fucked up. How can we take this as normal for our kids when we work so hard to combat bullying in schools?

I go back and forth. I know Ive heard worse and seen worse than whats been reported...(Hell I watched in a high school a kid get icy hot shoved up his ass on a pen on a team bus...) so there is a part of me that says grow the heck up and toughen up or "Maybe NFL isnt game for you"

So you need to be forcibly sodomized to play football?

Grow the fuck up people. No sport is worth putting up with this shit, and it sure as hell isn't needed to bring a team together. It's just a massive failure in leadership as the bad seeds get away with being really bad seeds, and everyone else is passively compliant.

The absence of charges at the scene isn't exactly a great endorsement of the legitimacy of the allegations. The default these days seems to be arrest the male now, sort out the truth later. And just-go-away money isn't exactly uncommon for celebs dealing with people looking to cash in.

Sure, you get false positives on this stuff sometime. But I think there's a significantly larger number of sexual assaults that go unreported/unprosecuted, let alone harassment cases like the alleged golfing incident. I mean, cases like Steubenville take an internet lynch mob to proceed anywhere. And ones that do go to trial are dismissed as cases of "she's a slut and was asking for it" (http://deadspin.com/what-happens-when-teammates-rape-a-teammate-1460111117) or "boys will be boys." Often an absence of charges doesn't mean jack.

Yeah, that's just wrong. I agree the best way to handle almost all initial bullying is to shrug it off and just be confident in who you are, so suggesting that you act like a fag or a slut is asinine and generally leads into a downward spiral where it goes from isolated incident that people will forget about into defining who you are as a person, and since most bullying occurs with kids, it can define you as a person until you graduate HS or switch schools. And, yes, there are certain bullies/groups who will continue targeting a specific person even after they do outwardly act like it doesn't bother them. These are rare and atypical, but that's why they end up being the most dangerous situations.

I worded that poorly. I meant "act" as in make a mockery of the statement. "Oh yeah, I am a huuuuuuge fAAAaaaagg" and laughing it off. Thats why I put it in quotations.. I just put the wrong word in quotations.

The default these days seems to be arrest the male now, sort out the truth later. And just-go-away money isn't exactly uncommon for celebs dealing with people looking to cash in.

Yes, those rich, famous white guys sure do have it rough.

I guess I just don't understand why you specifically (among others) seem hell-bent on absolving Incognito of blame in this situation when there seems to be a pattern of behavior pointing to the fact that the guy has some major issues.

It seems to me like you are letting your politics inform this a little too much... it seems like you think Martin and this golf lady were just in it for the money and there were no issues.

If that's not the case, I'd love for you to elucidate your side a bit better, because I'm not getting it.

Found this interesting, a story by a former player who thinks he knows what Jonathan Martin went through from his own personal experience:

Former NFL Player on Bullying: I Was the Team 'Weirdo' on New York Jets | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1840958-an-insiders-account-of-bullying-hazing-and-overall-culture-of-the-nfl?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial&hpt=hp_c2)

This is just fantastic:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Rc3lvSRFkJ8?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(Hell I watched in a high school a kid get icy hot shoved up his ass on a pen on a team bus...)

Hazing is so gay.

Teams will take a chance on anyone who is good.

Kerry Rhodes graded out as the 4th best safety in the NFL last year according to ProFootballFocus.

Kerry Rhodes graded out as the 4th best safety in the NFL last year according to ProFootballFocus.

Is Kerry Rhodes really out of a job because he is thought to be gay? That, to me, is a way more offensive thing than this whole Martin thing.

There. Moved into its own thread.

There. Moved into its own thread.

Ok that explains why this thread looks weird and was adding things quickly

SI

Ok that explains why this thread looks weird and was adding things quickly

SIYeah. I had to do it piecemeal. It didn't make sense to have the same continued discussion over multiple weeks in the NFL thread, which was starting to happen.

Yeah. I had to do it piecemeal. It didn't make sense to have the same continued discussion over multiple weeks in the NFL thread, which was starting to happen.

My first thought was that the timestamp bug was back.

SI

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9945888/most-players-survey-want-richie-incognito

But in an unscientific survey conducted by team reporters for ESPN.com's NFL Nation over two days this week, Incognito does not have the same level of support from some of his peers. Three players participated from each team surveyed, with 72 players in all asked three questions. The players taking part were granted anonymity.

To the question of which player, Martin or Incognito, would they rather have as a teammate, 15 of the players who responded (20.8 percent) said they would rather have Incognito as a teammate, while 34 (47.2 percent) said they would rather have Martin as a teammate.

However, 23 of those who responded, or 31.9 percent, said they would want neither as a teammate. In all, the results showed that 57 of those who answered (79.2 percent) would not want Incognito as a teammate.

The players were also asked, in true-or-false form, whether they had ever been victims of hazing during their NFL careers. Thirty-one of the players (43.1 percent) answered true, while 41 (56.9 percent) answered false.

In the third question, players were asked if they ever had to provide money as part of a hazing incident. To that, 28 players (38.9 percent) answered true, while 44 players (61.1 percent) answered false.

Those who answered true to the third question were also asked to provide the highest dollar amount they were asked to provide as part of the hazing incident. A wide range of answers were given.

Some of the answers included $40 for donuts, $100 for Chick-Fil-A and $2,500 and $5,000 for team dinners. In addition, six of the players surveyed said they spent $8,000, $9,000, $10,000 (two players), $12,000 and $18,000. Those six players did not identify how the money was used.

Kind of goes against some of the opinions in this thread.

Kind of goes against some of the opinions in this thread.

Only proves that they don't want to deal with the media circus/witchhunt.

Richie Incognito held offensive line meetings at strip club - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9946248/richie-incognito-held-offensive-line-meetings-strip-club)

Question: When Incognito "fines" them does he keep the money?

Only proves that they don't want to deal with the media circus/witchhunt.

You're so full of it, it's hilarious.

It is fascinating to me how much of this whole shit-storm appears to be entirely wrapped up in semantics.

That is, I think there has been a significant amount of talk about what "grown-ass men" and/or "real adults" would do in this situation, and I think that points to the fact that what's actually driving this circus show has very little to do with the actual specifics of this particular case, and everything to do with the word "bullying", and the current hype surrounding that word.

Simply by tagging what Martin went through as bullying has made this discussion about the very roots of mental 'toughness', emotional maturity, and masculinity. "I wouldn't let no grown-ass man bully me!" go some of the replies "Martin should have stood up for himself!". If this situation had been framed as "extortion and threats of violence" would those same discussions/opinions even exist? Nobody has the same guttural reaction to the word "harassment", "threats of violence" does not conjure up some primal threat to your manhood and social pack standing. By framing this incident (and any other disagreement) as bullying it paints it as a playground issue for school-kids, and has managed to completely distort the issue.

It is fascinating to me how much of this whole shit-storm appears to be entirely wrapped up in semantics.

That is, I think there has been a significant amount of talk about what "grown-ass men" and/or "real adults" would do in this situation, and I think that points to the fact that what's actually driving this circus show has very little to do with the actual specifics of this particular case, and everything to do with the word "bullying", and the current hype surrounding that word.

Simply by tagging what Martin went through as bullying has made this discussion about the very roots of mental 'toughness', emotional maturity, and masculinity. "I wouldn't let no grown-ass man bully me!" go some of the replies "Martin should have stood up for himself!". If this situation had been framed as "extortion and threats of violence" would those same discussions/opinions even exist? Nobody has the same guttural reaction to the word "harassment", "threats of violence" does not conjure up some primal threat to your manhood and social pack standing. By framing this incident (and any other disagreement) as bullying it paints it as a playground issue for school-kids, and has managed to completely distort the issue.

This is a great point I hadn't even thought of.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9945888/most-players-survey-want-richie-incognito



Kind of goes against some of the opinions in this thread.
Or, to put on another front, 53% don't want to play with Martin - simply for him blowing the whistle. Richie is an idiot and I'm kind of surprised he got 15 votes. The news to me is that over half the players surveyed wouldn't want Martin on their team. How does a GM bring him in at this point given his marginal talent?

Looking at this situation, I think of the words a wise man once said

Thugs will most often be thugs, doesn't matter what uniform you put 'em in nor what opportunities you give 'em. No team is immune, the question is how long allegedly mature adults will put up with it and how much they're willing to excuse it.

What strikes me about that poll is not that there's more support for Martin than Incognito, but instead that the majority say they weren't hazed, and that the financial hazing seems to pale in comparison to what's been reported in this instance. Whether the poll (SSS to be sure) is being honestly answered we have no idea, unfortunately.

It just seems to make the "this is part of being in the NFL" ring somewhat hollow.

What strikes me about that poll is not that there's more support for Martin than Incognito, but instead that the majority say they weren't hazed, and that the financial hazing seems to pale in comparison to what's been reported in this instance. Whether the poll (SSS to be sure) is being honestly answered we have no idea, unfortunately.

It just seems to make the "this is part of being in the NFL" ring somewhat hollow.

Yeah, I didn't personally have as much of an issue with the whole voicemail/name calling thing (via the general "yeah, people say lots of things in the locker room that would sound really bad in any other social context" angle) than the fact that it seemed to have crossed the line into flat-out extortion.

I'd be willing to bet something like 95% would say they would want Dez Bryant as a teammate. He spoke up the minute hazing started. And, despite his emotional outbursts, he's all about doing what he can for the team.

I get the frustration with Martin. Some 20-year-olds don't have the social skills to determine where they draw that line or how they handle the routine stuff. They have to learn that you can't control every interaction. And sometimes, you have to stop being passive-aggressive and simply stand up for yourself.

Which is not to say he should have slugged Incognito. That would make the situation worse for everyone.

That said, Incognito needs help. Football is probably the only thing that's kept him from doing something that mandates a life-long prison sentence.

Richie Incognito Once Called Warren Sapp a "N*****" During a Game (http://deadspin.com/richie-incognito-once-called-warren-sapp-a-nigger-durin-1459540286)

This is a few days old, but obviously Incognito's teammates in St. Louis must have also bestowed upon him honorary black person status.

I have severe mental illness. There I said it. Some of you might know that. Hell, I've stopped posting on FOFC and the internet because of it. Seizures, anxiety, depression, etc.

Even if I were 6'5" 325 lbs. and amazingly athletic, I would still have the same issues. What the hell was Martin supposed to do? It's not always just about nutting it up, and going through hell when you don't have to. We have no idea what that kid was dealing with in his skull.

It makes me sad when I see people who I think of as friends defending or lessening what people like Incognito did/do.

Just be nice to each other. I'm not a hippie, but abuse is abuse.

Bah. Forget it. No one ever learns. People are, and always will be evil and mean, and there will always be people that defend that behavior. I gave up long ago, and don't know why I even posted here.

I have severe mental illness. There I said it. Some of you might know that. Hell, I've stopped posting on FOFC and the internet because of it. Seizures, anxiety, depression, etc.

Even if I were 6'5" 325 lbs. and amazingly athletic, I would still have the same issues. What the hell was Martin supposed to do? It's not always just about nutting it up, and going through hell when you don't have to. We have no idea what that kid was dealing with in his skull.

It makes me sad when I see people who I think of as friends defending or lessening what people like Incognito did/do.

Just be nice to each other. I'm not a hippie, but abuse is abuse.

Bah. Forget it. No one ever learns. People are, and always will be evil and mean, and there will always be people that defend that behavior. I gave up long ago, and don't know why I even posted here.

Actually, I completely agree with you.

I have severe mental illness. There I said it. Some of you might know that. Hell, I've stopped posting on FOFC and the internet because of it. Seizures, anxiety, depression, etc.

Even if I were 6'5" 325 lbs. and amazingly athletic, I would still have the same issues. What the hell was Martin supposed to do? It's not always just about nutting it up, and going through hell when you don't have to. We have no idea what that kid was dealing with in his skull.

It makes me sad when I see people who I think of as friends defending or lessening what people like Incognito did/do.

Just be nice to each other. I'm not a hippie, but abuse is abuse.

Bah. Forget it. No one ever learns. People are, and always will be evil and mean, and there will always be people that defend that behavior. I gave up long ago, and don't know why I even posted here.

We miss you Schmidty!

Thanks. I miss me too. :(

I have severe mental illness. There I said it. Some of you might know that. Hell, I've stopped posting on FOFC and the internet because of it. Seizures, anxiety, depression, etc.

Even if I were 6'5" 325 lbs. and amazingly athletic, I would still have the same issues. What the hell was Martin supposed to do? It's not always just about nutting it up, and going through hell when you don't have to. We have no idea what that kid was dealing with in his skull.

It makes me sad when I see people who I think of as friends defending or lessening what people like Incognito did/do.

Just be nice to each other. I'm not a hippie, but abuse is abuse.

Bah. Forget it. No one ever learns. People are, and always will be evil and mean, and there will always be people that defend that behavior. I gave up long ago, and don't know why I even posted here.


Very well said

I have severe mental illness. There I said it. Some of you might know that. Hell, I've stopped posting on FOFC and the internet because of it. Seizures, anxiety, depression, etc.

Even if I were 6'5" 325 lbs. and amazingly athletic, I would still have the same issues. What the hell was Martin supposed to do? It's not always just about nutting it up, and going through hell when you don't have to. We have no idea what that kid was dealing with in his skull.

It makes me sad when I see people who I think of as friends defending or lessening what people like Incognito did/do.

Just be nice to each other. I'm not a hippie, but abuse is abuse.



Exactly and Incognito was a cocksucker when he played HS ball (Yes I coached against his team), a cocksucker at Nebraska and is obviously still a cocksucker.

And as far as the idiotic honorary black status bestowed upon him. Whoever said that is a fucking idiot too. You don't bestow race on someone, thereby excusing his use of the N word, and it is insulting that he is considered more "black" than Martin, because the latter is well educated and chooses not to act like a fucking thug.

Thanks. I miss me too. :(

and welcome back :)

Bullies standing up for another bully have no credibility. It just reinforces despicable behavior. If this is the culture, then that culture has to change.

Bullies standing up for another bully have no credibility. It just reinforces despicable behavior. If this is the culture, then that culture has to change.
I think teams like New England, Seattle, Green Bay and others have shown you can win in the NFL today without having a bunch of bullies and archaic hazing rituals. The media talked to McCarthy this week about this and he said that they expect rookies to be instant contributors (7 have already started this season) and the last thing he wants to do is alienate these guys and make them feel like less of a teammate. The beat guy also interviewed David Bakhtiari (rookie starting LT) and he kind of chuckled and said that he had to buy donuts one morning and carry pads for a couple days in training camp - but no 30K dinners. He said that from day one that he felt equal to every other offensive lineman in importance.

The NFL needs to setup guidelines for what is allowed (ie, sing fight songs/rookie talent show, buy donuts one morning, carry pads a few days) and what isn't (over $2K for dinners/trips, physical abuse, forms of hazing). But, more than anything, head coaches need to get their heads out of their a** and realize time has passed punks like Incognito by and there is no need for this crap. They have the power to stop it and if they don't know it exists on their team they are simply incompetent or don't care.

Arles, very well said; my son also liked what you wrote.

If I ever see either of these two bozos on the field, it will be too soon.

Jonathan Martin likely done with Miami Dolphins - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9960885/jonathan-martin-likely-done-miami-dolphins)

Jonathan Martin likely done with Miami Dolphins - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9960885/jonathan-martin-likely-done-miami-dolphins)

No one saw that coming! :p

I have severe mental illness. There I said it. Some of you might know that. Hell, I've stopped posting on FOFC and the internet because of it. Seizures, anxiety, depression, etc.

Even if I were 6'5" 325 lbs. and amazingly athletic, I would still have the same issues. What the hell was Martin supposed to do? It's not always just about nutting it up, and going through hell when you don't have to. We have no idea what that kid was dealing with in his skull.

It makes me sad when I see people who I think of as friends defending or lessening what people like Incognito did/do.

Just be nice to each other. I'm not a hippie, but abuse is abuse.

Bah. Forget it. No one ever learns. People are, and always will be evil and mean, and there will always be people that defend that behavior. I gave up long ago, and don't know why I even posted here.


What we have here is a convergence of a few different things meeting:

1) I think mental illness is still incredibly misunderstood by the general population.

2) We have a sliver of information that we get in these cases and are making opinions about the case without knowing what they are really talking about.

3) We all want to talk about how we would have acted, what our response would have been, or what "the right" thing to do is.

I'm not going to venture into either #1 or #3 now. I really, really think we are going to find a lot more out about #2. My guess is we have about 25% of the story now. Based in Richie's history, I think the other 75% likely won't go very well for him, but I do want to hear it before I make a judgement on this. (My gut says there should be a major bloodletting taking place in the next few weeks, with multiple Dolphins players, coaches and office staff fired.

Still, I don't think this is as open/shut as some are making it out to be. This thing may have more turns in it and I'm interested to see what will happen.

Incognito's version of the story--when placed with the backdrop of the comments coming from the Martin camp this afternoon about him trying to befriend teammates and confirming the "kill your fucking family" text--seems to "make sense" on some level. I'm picturing a bunch of ogres who joked in horribly crude and insensitive ways with each other, probably very often waaaaaay over the line of decency. Martin, trying to fit in and make friends, may have participated in it, but in reality he probably took stuff way more personally than anyone ever realized. In other words, I'm guessing that threats to run a train on someone's sister were pretty commonplace in that locker room and not just limited to Martin's sister. In the end, it sounds like an environment that was out of control and was destined to eventually come to this with a more sensitive player.

I think a big part of the problem is Incognito's inability to understand that not everyone sees the world the way he does.

Am I the only one who has had enough of this story?

Am I the only one who has had enough of this story?

Nah, but it'll live as long as the media cycle needs someone to hold up as a victim.

Am I the only one who has had enough of this story?

I was pretty much done with it sometime in the middle of last week.

Nah, but it'll live as long as the media cycle needs someone to hold up as a victim.

So, as long as the redneck culture continues without consequences, all is right in your world?

I'm guessing that threats to run a train on someone's sister were pretty commonplace in that locker room and not just limited to Martin's sister. In the end, it sounds like an environment that was out of control and was destined to eventually come to this with a more sensitive player.

I think an interesting debate could exist (somewhere, if not here) regarding who is out of place in this particular case, or in similar circumstances.


I.E. everyone here recognizes that jokes about running the train on a man's sister is probably not casually acceptable in their workplace. HOWEVER if those jokes ARE acceptable to the other 90 players in THAT work place, YET offensive to Martin; who must change?
Does that Make the Dolphins bad and Martin good?
Does it make Martin bad and the Dolphins good?
Or are both acceptable, yet flawed and a horrible fit for each other...

Which workplace would that be? The Dolphins or the NFL?

So, as long as the redneck culture continues without consequences, all is right in your world?

{yawn}

I've heard worse than these allegations for as long as I can remember. Locker rooms, military culture, you name it. Hell, some of this stuff isn't even all that far fetched for radio. Pardon me if I don't get too worked up over it.

I think an interesting debate could exist (somewhere, if not here) regarding who is out of place in this particular case, or in similar circumstances.


I.E. everyone here recognizes that jokes about running the train on a man's sister is probably not casually acceptable in their workplace. HOWEVER if those jokes ARE acceptable to the other 90 players in THAT work place, YET offensive to Martin; who must change?
Does that Make the Dolphins bad and Martin good?
Does it make Martin bad and the Dolphins good?
Or are both acceptable, yet flawed and a horrible fit for each other...

You're missing the point. The players don't decide what's acceptable, the team and league does. I am not sure of the whole set up the league and the teams have but if it's anything like a regular business, if the main office doesn't think it flies, then it doesn't fly, and if the team is found to be out of compliance with that then heads will roll.

You don't point the fingers at the players, you start pointing them up the ladder. If violations are found, then the players involved have a legit case. You don't question Martin for breaking the code, you look at the larger picture, the culture, and what is acceptable from a macro view, and look at ways to prevent it from happening in the future.

Or, to put on another front, 53% don't want to play with Martin - simply for him blowing the whistle. Richie is an idiot and I'm kind of surprised he got 15 votes. The news to me is that over half the players surveyed wouldn't want Martin on their team. How does a GM bring him in at this point given his marginal talent?I disagree that's the main reason they wouldn't want him as a teammate. He skipped OTA's and walked out on his team midseason - I'd say it's pretty clear that winning football games isn't his main/only reason for living, and that's a sin in the NFL.

So, as long as the redneck culture continues without consequences, all is right in your world?

What kind of culture do you expect around a hyper-competitive job where you violently assault players on the field in 10 second bursts for 3 hours? The word culture has been thrown around with this, but what culture do people expect around this sport? It just seems weird to me that we expect these guys to compete in something so violent and then act like esteemed gentlemen in their downtime.

I guess the thing that bugs me is that this isn't some 13 year old girl getting bullied. I'm sure Incognito is an asshole and it looks like he's being punished for the incident by losing his job. But how much outrage is necessary over two millionaires not having a healthy relationship?

It just seems weird to me that we expect these guys to compete in something so violent and then act like esteemed gentlemen in their downtime.

I think there's a happy medium that could be found between "esteemed gentlemen" and "I'm going to shit in your mouth and murder your family."

I disagree that's the main reason they wouldn't want him as a teammate. He skipped OTA's and walked out on his team midseason - I'd say it's pretty clear that winning football games isn't his main/only reason for living, and that's a sin in the NFL.
I think the reason he was willing to blow the whistle was because he doesn't see a long career for himself in football. Whether it's a lack of desire, the fact he's seen evidence of what a long term career can do to you physically or whether he just doesn't feel he's good enough and has some perspective. Whatever the reason, it's pretty clear he knew that he would probably never play again after starting the process and is OK with that. A player who's main goal in life was to have an NFL career would have dealt with a lot more than Martin did (as many rookies have). So, maybe this will work out for everyone. Martin will get a payday and no longer have to participate in NFL locker rooms while the NFL will reform the "rookie hazing" process. The only people who won't make out is Incognito and the Dolphins front office/staff. And, again, given their lack of common sense with how they used Richie and controlled their team, it's hard to feel real bad for Miami or Incognito.

I thought I recalled reading that Martin made it known that Harvard Law, not the NFL, was his real dream.

One interesting note, for me at least... Amy normally only watches the Bears and nothing else when it comes to the NFL. Last night, she sat down with me and watched the second half of MNF - just to root against the Dolphins.

When it comes to who is paying the price for this, I'm getting the perception that people think the entire Dolphins' culture is to blame.

You're missing the point. The players don't decide what's acceptable, the team and league does. I am not sure of the whole set up the league and the teams have but if it's anything like a regular business, if the main office doesn't think it flies, then it doesn't fly, and if the team is found to be out of compliance with that then heads will roll.

You don't point the fingers at the players, you start pointing them up the ladder. If violations are found, then the players involved have a legit case. You don't question Martin for breaking the code, you look at the larger picture, the culture, and what is acceptable from a macro view, and look at ways to prevent it from happening in the future.

Isn't the highlighted portion the ultimate question in this entire situation? Is this a regular business?

As this debacle has continued to evolve, I find the idea of the NFL "culture" to be this pendulum that swings back and forth almost violently (pun not intended) depending on what the marketing needs to be that day.

Isn't the highlighted portion the ultimate question in this entire situation? Is this a regular business?

As this debacle has continued to evolve, I find the idea of the NFL "culture" to be this pendulum that swings back and forth almost violently (pun not intended) depending on what the marketing needs to be that day.

Ultimately its going to come down to behavior detrimental to the team and the league. Teams are going to squeeze down from the top on the players and force the change. If somehow management gets out of this clean then maybe it won't happen, but if coaches or GM's get fired over it, other teams are going to lay down the law so to speak.

It's also going to be yet another thing that Congress can hold over the NFL in saying "maybe we ought to look again at that anti-trust exemption if this is how you run your business."

I think the reason he was willing to blow the whistle was because he doesn't see a long career for himself in football. Whether it's a lack of desire, the fact he's seen evidence of what a long term career can do to you physically or whether he just doesn't feel he's good enough and has some perspective. Whatever the reason, it's pretty clear he knew that he would probably never play again after starting the process and is OK with that. A player who's main goal in life was to have an NFL career would have dealt with a lot more than Martin did (as many rookies have). So, maybe this will work out for everyone. Martin will get a payday and no longer have to participate in NFL locker rooms while the NFL will reform the "rookie hazing" process. The only people who won't make out is Incognito and the Dolphins front office/staff. And, again, given their lack of common sense with how they used Richie and controlled their team, it's hard to feel real bad for Miami or Incognito.Agreed, but I think it was pretty obvious he didn't really care about football before he "blew the whistle'. I'm sure the whistleblower status had something to do with at least one person picking against him in that survey, but that wasn't the main reason.

Related to SkyDog's tangent on locker room vocabulary - Matt Barnes of Los Angeles Clippers on racial slur -- 'Get used to it' - ESPN Los Angeles (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9981526/matt-barnes-los-angeles-clippers-racial-slur-get-used-it)

Agreed, but I think it was pretty obvious he didn't really care about football before he "blew the whistle'. I'm sure the whistleblower status had something to do with at least one person picking against him in that survey, but that wasn't the main reason.

Related to SkyDog's tangent on locker room vocabulary - Matt Barnes of Los Angeles Clippers on racial slur -- 'Get used to it' - ESPN Los Angeles (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9981526/matt-barnes-los-angeles-clippers-racial-slur-get-used-it)


That, and his mom is a labor lawyer, so he knew he could G$$ up.

Damned if I know exactly what thread to stick this in, this seems as good a choice as any. Just happened to notice the link in the miscellaneous blogs/column section on ESPN.com, read it for the hell of it. I don't necessarily agree with every assertion the writer (basketball player Coleman Collins) makes but I thought it was one of the better written columns on the subject of "the N word" in both athletics & society at large that I've read in a while.

If the topic interests you then I'd say it's worth a few minutes to read. YMMV but I'll pass it along fwiw.

Exporting the N-word - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/64299/exporting-the-n-word)

Damned if I know exactly what thread to stick this in, this seems as good a choice as any. Just happened to notice the link in the miscellaneous blogs/column section on ESPN.com, read it for the hell of it. I don't necessarily agree with every assertion the writer (basketball player Coleman Collins) makes but I thought it was one of the better written columns on the subject of "the N word" in both athletics & society at large that I've read in a while.

If the topic interests you then I'd say it's worth a few minutes to read. YMMV but I'll pass it along fwiw.

Exporting the N-word - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/64299/exporting-the-n-word)

I firmly believe that people should be able to say the word, but they have to be ready to deal with the consequences of saying the word. If Incognito said it to me I'd probably punch him in his face. But there are some blacks (I use blacks because I hate the term African-american) would not do a thing and just ignore him.

I like the articles much, thanks! JIMGA

Here are Over 1,000 Text Messages That Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin Allegedly Exchanged | The Big Lead (http://thebiglead.com/2014/02/03/here-are-over-1000-text-messages-that-richie-incognito-and-jonathan-martin-allegedly-exchanged/#sthash.su9vVkm3.uxfs)

The first few pages of that are pretty good. People who were super-offended by Richard Sherman, this is how male professional athletes talk to each other. They're ridiculous. They usually manage to put on a fake face for a TV reporter, but Sherman was a bit excited and was still rolling.

I read the first few pages then skimmed a bunch until the end when everything supposedly happened.

As long as a bunch of things weren't deleted, it seems like the world might just owe Incognito an apology.

Those texts read pretty much exactly how I'd expect a pair of young musclehead douchebags to communicate.

The 9/22 conversation was kinda funny. Incognito is tired and just wants to go to sleep and Martin is trying to talk him into going out...at one point telling him "Don't pull a Jon Martin!"

Those texts read pretty much exactly how I'd expect a pair of young musclehead douchebags to communicate.

The 9/22 conversation was kinda funny. Incognito is tired and just wants to go to sleep and Martin is trying to talk him into going out...at one point telling him "Don't pull a Jon Martin!"

I caught that too during my skimming and thought it was a pretty good look at what their relationship was and how he took a lot of the ribbing in good fun.

Obviously there would need to be a lot more than this to have a case against Richie... Martin putting him through this because of these texts would classify him as the biggest pussy ever.

Interesting conversation on 2/1/13

Martin says he's in NorCal and needs to get "swole" so he can join Icognito in Hawaii next year. And Icognito says (to the effect) "yeah you do. No more getting bitched around".

Of course that doesn't mean anything in and of itself, but if one were talking about doing a roid cycle, thats what it would sound like to me.

Man, just from reading those texts....can't help but get the feeling that Martin threw Richie under the bus for whatever reason.

Man, just from reading those texts....can't help but get the feeling that Martin threw Richie under the bus for whatever reason.

Yeah I actually read thru that entire thing (boring day at work).

And it is really just 2 young(ish) & single dudes with more money than brains really where the most surprising part is the lack of anything surprising.

Certainly looks like Ingognito is speaking a lot more truth than Martin based on those texts. If this is the whole story hard to come to any other conclusion that this was cynically planned and he threw him under the bus because he didn't want to play in the league any more

I haven't gone through the texts but I'll work from what's been said here as a good synposis, which brings me to my question ...

Did I dream it, or wasn't it Martin's lawyer that brought up (about a week or so ago) how the texts would make the horrible situation for his client clear?

Maybe he was thinking only a carefully selected few would get out there? And if so, isn't that incredibly naive?