Florida Board of Education approves race-based academic goals | theGrio (http://thegrio.com/2012/10/12/florida-education-board-approves-race-based-academic-goals/)

Thoughts?

Uhhhh... October fool's day? Seriously? Is this a repost from 1952?

Fake site? Says NBC Universal but then powered by Wordpress? NBC Universal would let a corporate website be run on wordpress? I have my doubts.... there is an election coming up where many people think its ok to lie as long as their guy wins. I could be wrong but Ive never heard of this Grio place

Gotta be a fake site.

I predict this thread ends badly.

Florida's plan to measure students by race riles education experts | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/15/florida-ill-advised-plan-to-measure-students-by-race-riles-education-experts/)

Links to actual papers?

Um okay - maybe this is real.

All I have to say is - this is why fark.com has a "FLORIDA" tag...

It sounds like a really elaborate criticism of affirmative action. (Like, "see how ridiculous this sounds when we put it THIS way?")

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...

...except for Gays...

...and anyone who isn't white...

In truth, many states already do this but not as blatantly as Florida did here. In measuring AYP (Adequate Yearly Process) groups are formed based on race, special ed, etc. and each group has a baseline they come in based on the previous grade's testing. To measure the AYP, the different groups then don't have to reach the same level but instead just have to show a year's worth of growth from one year to the next. Now in theory, you're measuring them the same because you're saying you need to see a year's worth of growth but in truth, you're not measuring the same because every group has a different baseline they come in with.

theGrio is a real site, fwiw. And this is just a way for educational bureaucrats to claim they've met standards, it's not about actually getting kids educated, but rather about funding and being able to claim victories.

Fake site? Says NBC Universal but then powered by Wordpress? NBC Universal would let a corporate website be run on wordpress? I have my doubts.... there is an election coming up where many people think its ok to lie as long as their guy wins. I could be wrong but Ive never heard of this Grio place

Lots of corporate sites run on Wordpress. Not many will reveal the backend, but lots of educational and corporate sites on Wordpress now. It's a full-fledged CMS especially with someone who knows what they're doing managing the backend and with plugins and appropriate security.

What rowech said basically. The phrasing here is different (actually more clear than usual) but the outcome is similar to what's done elsewhere already.

Separate but equal worked in Plessy v Ferguson! Why not now?

SI

But again, this is what the education establishment is working towards. School assignment and busing based on race was found unconstitutional, and then my current county of residence Wake County, North Carolina figured out that if they did it based on free & reduced lunches, they could achieve the same goal without doing it based on "race" and was lauded for it, getting awards even while we were busy voting out that school board.

Even when it turned out that what they were really doing was shuffling test scores to avoid losing funding under NCLB, which as pointed out is now what this stuff is all about.

http://thegrio.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/florida-strategic-academic-plan.jpg?w=516&h=494 (http://thegrio.com/2012/10/12/florida-education-board-approves-race-based-academic-goals/florida-strategic-academic-plan/)

I guess I'm confused by why identifying this problem and noting long-term goals is wrong to do. What's the better play here?

Dutch, this was my thinking in the original post. The original article is a bit incendiary, but when I pull back the covers, to me, it's acknowledging there's a problem and then making a goal towards rectifying that problem. The alternative seems to be to ignore the data at your disposal. Wouldn't it make more sense to say, "for whatever reason, group a is having much more difficulty than group b, we must therefore target group a and develop programs to get them towards our overall goals."

Interesting, considering that there is an affirmation action case involving the University of Texas before the Supreme Court right now.

Dutch, this was my thinking in the original post. The original article is a bit incendiary, but when I pull back the covers, to me, it's acknowledging there's a problem and then making a goal towards rectifying that problem. The alternative seems to be to ignore the data at your disposal. Wouldn't it make more sense to say, "for whatever reason, group a is having much more difficulty than group b, we must therefore target group a and develop programs to get them towards our overall goals."

It ignores the reality that there's blacks that do extremely well in school and poor whites with bad upbringings that struggle from the start. Imprecise groups can be useful to summarize stuff and make broad plans if you're running a business or something, but I think you have to be a lot more reluctant to do the same thing with people when it comes to race.

I do think we have kind of a schizophrenia when it comes to diversity, on the one hand we want to "celebrate diversity" and on the other hand we have extreme paranoia about recognizing any broads traits in groups of people (to the extent that it seems like our real goal is to eliminate diversity and become one singular group of people), but attaching an academic expectation to every child based solely on their race - I think that's way counterproductive. Black kids get enough negative messages about their future prospects, the last thing the state board of education should be doing is telling them that they only have to do 74% as well as a white kid, regardless of how smart or driven they are.

I hope we don't follow France's idea:

French president pushing homework ban as part of ed reforms (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2012/10/15/french-president-pushing-homework-ban-as-part-of-ed-reforms/)

It would cost money to setup and administer, but tracking individual student performance would be much better. Test for a baseline and then look to improve, on average, each student by 10% or 35% or whatever over a set number of years. That focuses on improvement rather than raw scores and also recognizes that the starting point for students is a big determiner of the end point.

Of course the whole testing regime is fucked because it often means nothing to the students and everything to the institution, but that's the way with a lot of educational assessment.

Shouldn't this sentence be more than an end of article throw away?

Today people who oppose homework have different objections, among them, the research that suggests it doesn’t really help young children learn.

I didn't think homework helped anyone learn I thought it taught them responsibility and prepared them for the rigor of higher education.

Edit: I don't have kids though so my last experience with homework was sometime in the early 90s, at which point I certainly didn't think I was learning anything.

I guess the important question is, what was in place before this. If it was just get x% overall, and who cares what each race breakdown is, then a policy like this is just making sure that each race is contributing -- that you're not meeting the overall percentage by getting 100% white, and way less than x% for other races.

By 2018, Florida’s Department of Education wants 90 percent of its Asian students to be reading at or above grade level, compared to 88 percent of white students, 81 percent of Hispanic pupils and 74 percent of African-American children. In math, state educational officials want that figure to be 92 percent for Asian students, or 18 percent higher than that of African-American students and 11 percent higher than their American Indian counterparts.


According to state statistics, 69 percent of white students in Florida scored at or above grade level in reading during the 2011-2012 school year, compared to 53 percent of Hispanic students and 38 percent of their African-American classmates.


Oh, so these goals are just funny numbers. Never mind, then. Although, I like how the article did the subtraction for me, that was a nice touch.

It would cost money to setup and administer, but tracking individual student performance would be much better. Test for a baseline and then look to improve, on average, each student by 10% or 35% or whatever over a set number of years. That focuses on improvement rather than raw scores and also recognizes that the starting point for students is a big determiner of the end point.

Of course the whole testing regime is fucked because it often means nothing to the students and everything to the institution, but that's the way with a lot of educational assessment.

FWIW, this is where the trend is headed. As they work to re-write AYP, it's going to be more towards improvement, rather than arbitrary benchmarks. It may not be at the individual student level for "AYP" (or whatever the new term will be), but at a school level.

Shouldn't this sentence be more than an end of article throw away?

I didn't think homework helped anyone learn I thought it taught them responsibility and prepared them for the rigor of higher education.

Edit: I don't have kids though so my last experience with homework was sometime in the early 90s, at which point I certainly didn't think I was learning anything.

I believe most educators would tell you it is to reinforce the ideas learned in school, practice, etc. But, it's true that recent studies have shown that it really doesn't help at all. I think this is critical in a day when the amount of homework assigned is through the roof.

Here's where I think this gets icky: If poverty is not a better determinate than race, then it suggests to me that character/socialization is the real issue- and that should be addressed first.

This Character Point Average is the new big thing that's getting lots of press (This American Life, 60 min, KIPP, Paul Tough, etc). Right or wrong, skills like resiliency, delay in gratification, expressing desire without anger and metacognition are necessary to be successful in American schools. In general, teachers are horrible at re-socializing, but it is increasingly becoming a necessary step before actual teaching can begin. I think this is no more evident than the profound over representation of black (and esl) kids in special ed classes.

Maybe we should call education for what it is: learning how to act and think in an upper middle class (white) way. It certainly seems true for college degree professions; and isn't our goal to get everyone a college degree?

I believe most educators would tell you it is to reinforce the ideas learned in school, practice, etc. But, it's true that recent studies have shown that it really doesn't help at all. I think this is critical in a day when the amount of homework assigned is through the roof.

I recently asked my principal, "what if we flip homework and class time? what would be the result?" the main one i argued, the writing would be a lot better.

There was a great Frontline on the effect of social media on students. In particular the consequences of "multitasking" on writing. MIT and Stanford professors both said the quality of writing has dramatically decreased. What used to be a C paper would now be an A.

The cause they say is the inability for students to devote sustained concentration on a single topic. Most students write and paragraph, check facebook, write a paragraph, update twitter, etc. The result is nice, well written paragraphs that have little if any flow and development.

Maybe what we use to get in in the classroom can be better learned in the distracted media world, and what we did at home can be best done in a controlled, focused environment.

It ignores the reality that there's blacks that do extremely well in school and poor whites with bad upbringings that struggle from the start.

But in turn that ignores the reality of the whole which includes those high achievers in each racial/ethnic breakdown. When you look at the vast array of metrics used to assess students in Georgia & see that blacks have a failure rate -- from 3rd grade CRCT's to HS graduation tests -- consistently double to triple that of whites, I can understand why Florida has taken the approach they have here. An approach which, in reality, was already in play under NCLBA.

Further, you can take Clarke County, GA as another illustration of why race/ethnicity stands as a group separate from socio-economic data. The 3rd grade CRCT test "does not meet" rate is higher across the board for black students than for both "economically disadvantaged" students and "limited English proficient" students. The HS graduation test failure rate is higher for black students than for econ. disadv. across the board. There's more in play here than just economics.

the last thing the state board of education should be doing is telling them that they only have to do 74% as well as a white kid, regardless of how smart or driven they are.

In many areas, if 75% as well as the white kids was achieved, it'd be a solid step in the right direction. That may be an unpleasant reality, but it's still reality.

I suffered greatly from that during on-line schooling.

It ignores the reality that there's blacks that do extremely well in school and poor whites with bad upbringings that struggle from the start. Imprecise groups can be useful to summarize stuff and make broad plans if you're running a business or something, but I think you have to be a lot more reluctant to do the same thing with people when it comes to race.

I don't think it ignores that since they're trying to improve the scores of white students as well.

Black kids get enough negative messages about their future prospects, the last thing the state board of education should be doing is telling them that they only have to do 74% as well as a white kid, regardless of how smart or driven they are.

But that's not what this telling them at all. The percentages aren't related to how high they score, but how many of them pass.

Isn't the base idea behind homework is that you have students spend time outside of class because there's not enough time to both teach and practice the skills in 45 minute or 1 hour per day settings?

SI

And in at least some settings (my kid's school for one), the primary point of homework -- at the HS level anyway -- seems to be preparing them for a routine more in line with the college environment. Class time is for teaching, your time is for completing assignments based on said teaching.

Hence my HS freshman having 2-3 hours of homework per night six nights a week, not counting test prep. (Also considerably hence my kid having to be treated for tension headaches, but that's probably beside the point)

And in at least some settings (my kid's school for one), the primary point of homework -- at the HS level anyway -- seems to be preparing them for a routine more in line with the college environment. Class time is for teaching, your time is for completing assignments based on said teaching.


If so, then that's faulty reasoning at least based on my experiences in returning to college. Almost all of my classes have very little homework. The structure is almost always something like:

Exam 1: 25%
Exam 2: 25%
Participation: 20%
Paper: 30%

I actually have one class that is just three tests and nothing else. The only one where I've had alot of homework is Spanish.

If so, then that's faulty reasoning at least based on my experiences in returning to college. Almost all of my classes have very little homework. The structure is almost always something like:

Exam 1: 25%
Exam 2: 25%
Participation: 20%
Paper: 30%

I actually have one class that is just three tests and nothing else. The only one where I've had alot of homework is Spanish.

But you're preparing for those exams and writing that paper outside of class time, right? "Homework" is really just a structured version of that. It's preparation for that routine.

Edit: I guess grade and high schools could prep kids that way - no structured homework assignments, just an exam at the end of the semester, where its up to the kid to prepare for it however he or she wants throughout the semester. But before you get to that, I think you have to give the kid some structure of how to get there.

Right or wrong, skills like resiliency, delay in gratification, expressing desire without anger and metacognition are necessary to be successful in American schools.

Aside from metacognition, I'd argue the rest of those are necessary to be successful, period. They are part of living in a civilized society with other people that allows them to get along. Otherwise you get the old wild west, or the modern ghetto (black, latino, white, whatever, that's not a race comment) where folks take what they want when they want and think anger is the proper responce whenever they don't get what they want.

Isn't the base idea behind homework is that you have students spend time outside of class because there's not enough time to both teach and practice the skills in 45 minute or 1 hour per day settings?


And with all the different subjects that have to be taught now, that's all they tend to get, and that's part of the problem.

I dread the increasing homework load being placed on my kids, and don't look forward to the high school horror stories like JIMGA's. Kids shouldn't be on a "get up, go to school, go home, do homework, eat dinner, bathe, go to bed" schedule. And we're pretty close to that with our elementary school kids.

And with all the different subjects that have to be taught now, that's all they tend to get, and that's part of the problem.

Hmm, I don't know how much different the number of subjects actually are (in our case anyway), just the depth & manner to which they're taught seems to have changed from my bygone days.

He's got 1 math, 1 science, 1 history, 1 english, 1 academic elective (Latin, in his case), 1 less-academic elective (split class with band/Adv. Media Production; i.e. the webcast class).

That's the same as my 9th grade year back in 1981, except that I had a full blown study hall/teacher's aide period instead of the second elective.

Difference is that he's already gotten to things that I either didn't see until Jr/Sr year or even never saw at all in HS.

I dread the increasing homework load being placed on my kids, and don't look forward to the high school horror stories like JIMGA's. Kids shouldn't be on a "get up, go to school, go home, do homework, eat dinner, bathe, go to bed" schedule. And we're pretty close to that with our elementary school kids.

It varies from system to system of course but the load seems to be reasonably similar from place to place. What seems to vary most is how seriously it's taken, what percentage of students actually bother to do the homework at all. Anecdotally, from my niece's experience of the past few years, I can tell you that number is often below 50%. But when you can't retain a student, nor give them a failing grade ... well, intrinsic motivation really doesn't seem to cut it with the masses ;)

If so, then that's faulty reasoning at least based on my experiences in returning to college. Almost all of my classes have very little homework. The structure is almost always something like:

Exam 1: 25%
Exam 2: 25%
Participation: 20%
Paper: 30%

I actually have one class that is just three tests and nothing else. The only one where I've had alot of homework is Spanish.

Yeah, i have virtually no homework at all, outside of a few assignments(that have a few weeks to finish). I'm dreading Spanish though....might take that shit in a 6 week summer term just so my life will only suck ass for that limited amount of time.

I'm teaching AP Stats for the first time in our school's history and decided against homework "points" for students. I assign problems every night after going through material in class but I do not give points for the work. I put answers up the next day for students to check work, etc.

Thus far, I love it. Kids grades aren't inflated by Mickey Mouse homework points and they are quickly learning that homework is not about the points but about the practice.

Homework is crucial for math. Maybe not homework in the pure sense of the word but kids have to practice it. Without it, they won't get better. That said, too many teachers assign too many of the same type of problems when they don't need to. It's easier to say 2-40 evens instead of actually taking the time to pick out which problems you really need to focus on and no give them work just to give them work.

Yeah, i have virtually no homework at all, outside of a few assignments(that have a few weeks to finish). I'm dreading Spanish though....might take that shit in a 6 week summer term just so my life will only suck ass for that limited amount of time.

I am horrible at foreign languages, incapable of learning them. When I went back to school I had to do 3 quarters of a language and this is how my advisor suggested I do it. The great thing was American Sign Language counted as a language so I was able to take a 6 week summer accelerated course for that.

I'm teaching AP Stats for the first time in our school's history and decided against homework "points" for students. I assign problems every night after going through material in class but I do not give points for the work. I put answers up the next day for students to check work, etc.

Thus far, I love it. Kids grades aren't inflated by Mickey Mouse homework points and they are quickly learning that homework is not about the points but about the practice.

Homework is crucial for math. Maybe not homework in the pure sense of the word but kids have to practice it. Without it, they won't get better. That said, too many teachers assign too many of the same type of problems when they don't need to. It's easier to say 2-40 evens instead of actually taking the time to pick out which problems you really need to focus on and no give them work just to give them work.

Unfortunately, there's no history. Otherwise, I'd ask how the test scores compare to those in the past?

I know I retained more from the classes I did more work on outside of class. Now there's also some measure of "those you did more work outside of class on were those you cared more about". But I was more caught up on making sure I did well on all classes for that to have a noticeable effect until I got to college and there were just too many hours of work in a day for the hours to do them.

As with anything, there are better and worse teachers. And if someone took time and picked the best representative questions (a Calc AP teacher comes to mind), that's certainly a lot more useful than "Evens 2-40".

SI

If so, then that's faulty reasoning at least based on my experiences in returning to college. Almost all of my classes have very little homework. The structure is almost always something like:

Exam 1: 25%
Exam 2: 25%
Participation: 20%
Paper: 30%

I actually have one class that is just three tests and nothing else. The only one where I've had alot of homework is Spanish.

I don't doubt you're right, but that's a lazy grading breakdown for anything other than a graduate level course. 20% for participation is crap, especially if participation isn't defined more clearly and the paper needs to be broken down into multiple, graded drafts and revisions.

I don't doubt you're right, but that's a lazy grading breakdown for anything other than a graduate level course. 20% for participation is crap, especially if participation isn't defined more clearly and the paper needs to be broken down into multiple, graded drafts and revisions.

The participation is usually defined. It ranges from mere attendance to how much you participate in discussions. I have one class that has three versions of the paper due at the end, but three other classes where you just turn in the final draft on the last day.