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JeeberD
03-07-2003, 09:27 AM
Here's an article from ESPN Insider. I like the idea, but I'm worried about how it will affect this year's draft...

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Brace yourselves college and international basketball fans. Come May, the NBA will experience the largest exodus of underclassmen (both college and international) in the history of the draft.

Why? Rumors are running rampant among NBA GMs and player agents that NBA commish David Stern is working out a deal with Players Association president Billy Hunter that would create a 20-year-old age limit for the 2004 NBA draft.

Stern, who's been pushing for the rule for years, may have finally found a way to get the NBPA (which has always opposed such a rule) on board.

The rumored compromise would create cap relief for teams that want to sign older veterans but can't because of luxury-tax fears. Older players, who happen to dominate the leadership of the players' executive council, have been complaining for the past few years that aging veterans have been the most adversely affected by the new rules.

If the two sides work out an agreement soon (Sports Illustrated reported it could happened next month) expect NBA player agents to begin working overtime with teenagers in high school, college and overseas to get them into the draft this year.

"It will dramatically affect how we handle some of younger clients overseas and some of the kids we're recruiting in high school and college," one prominent NBA player agent said. "If a kid is 17 or 18 right now and NBA teams are interested, it's now or 2005 or 2006. I think some of these kids don't want to wait that long."

It's already likely that LeBron James (age 18), Darko Milicic (17), Carmelo Anthony (19) and Chris Bosh (19) will declare for this year's draft.


Top high school prospects like Luol Deng may consider skipping college if the NBA passes an age limit for 2004
But several other players, including top high school prospects like Kederick Perkins, Luol Deng, Charlie Villanueva, James Lang and Kris Humphries, who were on the fence before, may now be pushed into the draft if the rumors persist.

None of them, according to several respected NBA scouts, are ready for the NBA. However, the lure of guaranteed money now, as opposed to two years from now, may be too much to pass up. Of course, if they declare, teams will draft them, ready or not.

"The draft is still about upside," one GM told Insider. "At the end of the day you take the guy who will eventually be the best player, not the kid who's the best player right now."

Expect an even bigger flood of international players to consider bolting. The advantage they have is that NBA teams can keep them overseas for a few more seasons and develop them. Over the past week young prospects such as Yugoslavia's Kosta Perovic (18 years old), Senegal's Malick Badiane (18), Brazil's Tiago Splitter (17) and Poland's Maciej Lampe (17) have all been rumored to be considering throwing their names in the draft because of the rule change.

That puts a heavy burden on international scouts.

The problem, as even the most enthusiastic international scouts will admit, is that international scouting is following the same trend as American scouting. "The kids we are looking at are getting younger and younger," one assistant GM told Insider. "Even three years ago, you pretty much waited until an European kid established himself over there before you seriously looked at him. There were exceptions, like Andrei Kirilenko, but for the most part teams were only comfortable drafting guys who had already become stars on the international scene. Nowadays, we're trying to evaluate kids like Nikoloz Tskitishvili. It's becoming a much riskier proposition."

That's what made Denver's selection of Tskitishvili, currently the second-youngest player in the NBA, such a risk. Everyone could see his skills in workouts, but no one got a good look at him in a game.

Without any real game film to go on, teams must rely on international junior competitions, grainy game film, practices (increasingly difficult to get into) and a lot of second-hand accounts.

This year, Milicic, who turns 18 just weeks before the draft, will be the youngest player ever drafted in the lottery. Fortunately, he starts for his team, giving teams plenty of game film to examine. But for a number of other blue chip international prospects, scouts must increasingly rely on their gut and a little bit of faith.

Mustang
03-07-2003, 09:42 AM
*sniff sniff*

I smell a lawsuit coming.

Ben E Lou
03-07-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Mustang
*sniff sniff*

I smell a lawsuit coming. Heh. Funny you said that. My first response when I read the thread title was, "Is that legal?"

henry296
03-07-2003, 09:53 AM
It is perfectly legal as long as the rules are set during as part of the collective bargaining agreement. It is legal for the same reason that the NFL has a rule limiting entry until 3 years after your class has graduated high school.

In 1984 Leon Wood sued the NBA about the draft itself and lost.

Todd

albionmoonlight
03-07-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Mustang
*sniff sniff*

I smell a lawsuit coming.


Me too! Imagine, republishing information from ESPN Insider without providing them with compensation! You are going down Jeeber! :)

JeeberD
03-07-2003, 09:53 AM
Well, the NFL has a minimum age/college completed requirement, doesn't it? Why should the NBA be any different? As long as the NBA players association is on board, I don't see any problems with it...

Rich1033
03-07-2003, 09:58 AM
WooHoo! Down with Insider! Fight the power JeeberD

JeeberD
03-07-2003, 10:01 AM
Uh oh, is it time to hire a lawyer??? :D

GrantDawg
03-07-2003, 10:52 AM
I think they need a height restriction too. The need a lifesize Shack cut out with a big finger pointing to his crotch with a sign saying, "You must be this tall to play in this league."

JeeberD
03-07-2003, 11:16 AM
Aww, but I like Earl Boykins... :(

Leonidas
03-07-2003, 07:12 PM
I used to support the minimum age thing very, very strongly. My beef was that high school kids going straight to the NBA was undermining the fundamentals of the game and weakening the overall product. While I still believe fundamentals ar going down the sh*tter, I have changed my mind on this whole minimum age thing.

Basically, I sat and thought about who the best players in the game are today. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Tracy McGrady. What do they have in common? I cannot find any flaw with the fundamentals of any one of their games. I'm not sure how to correct what ails the game, but I know as long as guys like McGrady and Bryant can come staright out of HS and be the kind of players, and people they are, then that is not the problem.

oykib
03-07-2003, 07:43 PM
This sounds ridiculous to me. How is it legal for a union to collectively bargain away the rights of people who aren't members?

I think that the future LeBron James will win a case in about two and a half minutes.

I think that'd happen in the NFL, too. But agents and players are too worried about being blackballed. The NFL is not as much of a players league as the NBA. The NBA kids and agents don't have to worry.

Havok
03-07-2003, 07:53 PM
im all for it!!!

im tired of High school kids bypassing collage.

just my opinion

kcchief19
03-07-2003, 07:55 PM
The NBA PA could probably collectively bargain the point or sue saying that this point is covered by collective bargaining, but the kids have no legal leg to stand on.

It is perfectly legal to have a minimum age before hiring a person. You can't discriminate at the other end, but you can at the beginning. There are plenty of businesses who won't hire people under 18, even though 16 is a fairly standard legal age for employment.

oykib
03-07-2003, 08:16 PM
But tyhese kids are almost all 18. How do you deny employment to a qualified 18 year old. Especially when that means that you are denying him millions of dollars that he'll never recoup as he has a finite career span.

They'd never win that.

bosshogg23
03-07-2003, 11:06 PM
For college sports fans it is great if the NBA wins and the PA loses. As it is now, NCAA college football players are not eligible until the end of their classes junior season(redshirt seasons make some players eligible at the end of their sophmore season).

I love college sports but find it 100% unfair that I could find a job as a web page designer at 19, with 1 1/2 years of schooling and some athletes are not allowed to do that. I was LITERALLY lured out of college to accept my job. What exactly is the difference?

mckerney
03-07-2003, 11:19 PM
The NFL currently has a rule stating that you need to have been out of high school for 3 years before being eligible for the draft, though from everything I've heard about it, if it were ever tested in court it wouldn't stand.

Airhog
03-07-2003, 11:36 PM
well I can see why the NFL doesnt want highschool kids in its ranks, have you seen many highschool kids that could hack it in the nfl?

Now I can see the NBA, its much easier to gain experience playing basketball and learn the fundamentals. The problem with football is there isnt an easy way to get better expect to play in games IMO.

Qwikshot
03-07-2003, 11:57 PM
I haven't seen much by the way of fundamentals in the NBA save for when do I get my money? The NBA has become an individual sport rather than a team one...you can thank the bypassing of college and Be Like Mike for that....

ACStrider
03-08-2003, 06:09 AM
Good for the NBA! I'm personally for restricting draft-eligable players to people who have GRADUATED college, but I know that's never going to happen. Just my feeling, though, and I'm not completely sold on it either.

panerd
03-08-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by oykib
This sounds ridiculous to me. How is it legal for a union to collectively bargain away the rights of people who aren't members?

Obviously you have never been a member of a union. That is every union's MO, combined with the feeding the wallets of those in power and crapping on all the member who pay dues but haven't put in their time. Can you tell I am a former union member? (If you even want to call it that)

aquavit
03-08-2003, 10:35 AM
This is ridiculous. Not allowing high school juniors enter the draft is stupid. Limiting it to 20 years old is idiotic. The older players are just trying to hang on for a couple more paychecks. Way to go NBA!

tucker342
03-08-2003, 10:46 AM
Basically, I sat and thought about who the best players in the game are today. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Tracy McGrady. What do they have in common? I cannot find any flaw with the fundamentals of any one of their games. I'm not sure how to correct what ails the game, but I know as long as guys like McGrady and Bryant can come staright out of HS and be the kind of players, and people they are, then that is not the problem.


For all three of those players it took what, three or four years to get good. Also, that's three of how many who've been drafted into the NBA?


Think about how much better the college game would be, I'm all for it.

BishopMVP
03-08-2003, 12:50 PM
What about a system like the old days or the NHL, where you could draft any player at any time, but they stay in college until they're ready? Maybe they get paid a tenth of their salary or something to tide them over. I remember the Celtics drafted Larry Bird a year before he came out.

The Afoci
03-08-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by ACStrider
Good for the NBA! I'm personally for restricting draft-eligable players to people who have GRADUATED college, but I know that's never going to happen. Just my feeling, though, and I'm not completely sold on it either.

Why is that? I don't know what you do for a profession, but usually people who get a job are either ready for the position or the job is willing to train. What about graduating college makes them any better at what their profession will be?

mckerney
03-08-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by tucker342
For all three of those players it took what, three or four years to get good. Also, that's three of how many who've been drafted into the NBA?

Your 'three out of how many' arguement is worthless as far as I can see, unless you can show the success rate of players who went to college. I'd guess that the success rate of guys who came right out of high school is at least on par with those who went to college. Sure, there have been some busts who came out of high school right away, but the same can be said for guys who went to college.

Also, it's not not too uncommon for it to take guys coming out of college to take a few years to get into the NBA games as well.

Leonidas
03-08-2003, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by tucker342
For all three of those players it took what, three or four years to get good. Also, that's three of how many who've been drafted into the NBA?


Think about how much better the college game would be, I'm all for it.

Think again. Bryant, Garnett, and McGrady, aside from only being the best three players in the league, are not the only three to have made the successful transition. There onse was a guy named Moses Malone who went straight to the pros and didn't suck. Darryl Dawkins, while never great was still pretty good. Oh, and that Stoudamire guy this year, he doesn't suck. There are others too, but it's pointless and boring to just go on and on.

I haven't done the numbers, but I am willing to bet if you compared the percentage of HS draft pick busts to the percentage of first round out of college busts, the high schoolers would at least be even, if not ahead. Granted, only the very best should ever consider it. But the point is, there is proof out there that if a kid is good enough to do it, he should be allowed.

korme
03-09-2003, 10:30 AM
Why would they even consider it? Think of all the good players who have made it coming out of high school, or elsewhere.. just currently: KG, Kobe, T-Mac, Amare Stoudamire, Tony Parker, Jermaine O'Neal.. the only reason I think they are doing this is because the 2001 Draft of Curry, Kwame, and Chandler is looking like a bad decision on their behalves.

mckerney
03-09-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Shorty3281
the only reason I think they are doing this is because the 2001 Draft of Curry, Kwame, and Chandler is looking like a bad decision on their behalves.

Why exactly is this looking like a bad decision? From all I've heard, these players are coming along as expected. Is it just because they're not performing at an allstar level yet?

Give the kids a few years, I don't think you'll have the same attitude as of a bad decision against them being taken that high. If you're going to bring up a high school player taken that year was a mistake, it should at least be Desanga Diop at #8.

Though wis those three against Diop, I'd still be in favor of taking a high school kid in the top ten if I thought he was the best guy available.

Craptacular
03-09-2003, 12:49 PM
If the NBA thinks it's in their best interests to set a minimum age of 20, they should be allowed. I have mixed feelings about whether or not I think it would be a wise idea on their part, but they should have the right to do so.