23 Seminoles implicated in major college test cheating scandal involving an assistant coach and a grad assistant.
So say ESPN...

I again only heard the tale end of this. But if what I heard is accurate.. yeah.. I could see some serious crackdowns on FSU...

Dola: Hah.. funny that there's a huge fluff piece on the cover of espn.com at this moment about how he grew up loving Bama and gets to play them for the first time this weekend... I bet that doesn't last long..

Found an article on it

http://www.cstv.com/genrel/092707aaa.html
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - Florida State University's president said Thursday the school doesn't know all the details of an academic cheating scandal that has already resulted in two employees being fired.

President T.K. Wetherell reported the findings in a letter to the NCAA this week that a six-month investigation by the school revealed that at least 23 Florida State athletes were implicated in cheating on tests.

"I don't like what we saw," Wetherell said during a break at Thursday's Board of Governors quarterly meeting. "It bothers us obviously that faculty or athletic staff people would have done what they did."

Provost Larry Abele explained that a part-time tutor gave students answers while they were taking tests. He said a full-time athletic department employee filled in answers on quizzes and typed papers for students, in some cases students who weren't even there.

"My real concern is what I don't know at this point," Wetherell said.

The improprieties came to the school's attention when some of the athletes complained.

"Some students from the 2007 semester indicated that it was common knowledge among the student athletes that the tutor would help with the exams in the class," university investigators reported.

Senior Joslin Shaw, a wide receiver on the football team, said he was one of the players involved in the investigation. Shaw was suspended before the season for an undisclosed reason. Shaw said he's hopefully he'll play this year.

"People were saying I was going to be cleared, but I really don't know the details on the whole situation," Shaw said. "It's like day-to-day."

Shaw said he wasn't sure if he was waiting on the NCAA or Florida State.

"It's very frustrating," he said. "I just press on as if I were going to play on Saturday."

Coach Bobby Bowden was hopeful that the Shaw would soon be cleared.

"It could be tomorrow," Bowden said. "I don't know."

Wetherell, who played football for the Seminoles in the mid-1960s, said the school has kept the Atlantic Coast Conference and NCAA updated on its investigation since spring.

And there's been a ripple effect on the school's athletic department.

Wetherell notified athletic director David Hart Jr. in late May that his contract would not be renewed shortly after two assistant athletic directors announced their resignations. The No. 2 person in the academic support program, Brenda Monk, resigned in July.

Although Hart's contract runs until January 2009, he's expected to leave late this year.

The NCAA has investigated similar allegations at a number of schools over the past decade that resulted in harsh penalties at Baylor, California, Fresno State, Georgia, Howard, Kentucky, Marshall, Miami, Minnesota, New Mexico State, San Diego State, Southern Cal and Texas Southern.

An NCAA spokesman said it planned to make a statement on Florida State's case later Thursday.

The school, meanwhile, is being assisted in its effort by the ACC.

"We work with the institution through the process, advising and addressing questions they may have," ACC associate commissioner for compliance and governance Shane Lyons said Thursday, describing the league's role as "'largely advisory."

Florida State has had a pair of brushes with the NCAA in recent years, escaping serious sanctions both times.

The NCAA found no major violations or lack of institutional control after a yearlong investigation that centered around a November 1993 after-hours shopping spree at a local mall where several players received about $6,000 worth of tennis shoes, sweats and other sports gear paid for by prospective sports agents.

And two years ago, Wetherell threatened to sue the NCAA if it didn't back off its attempt to force the school to drop its "Seminoles" nickname.

It seems almost silly that we even expect them to go to school at this point.

Maybe there should just be a 30-team Division A+ or something, where we just do away with the charade of academics.

The specific thing I heard during halftime of the Boise St. game was that there was some online course and this tutor would sit in a room full of football players and read off test answers.

This could be very, very bad news for FSU fans.

Yeah, it's really less bad news for Bowden - who should retire anyway - and more bad news for Seminole fans, who may see their team get slapped with probation and scholarship reductions.

Seriously why have we clouded higher Education and minor league football.

The NFL needs a farm system a serious farm system and we can drop these charades. The farm system can even use the college names and facilities that exist now, but lets drop the student athlete garbage.

Oh wait we cant do that. The NFL would then have to worry about insurance and pensions...theye couldnt imagine paying players for the money they make

Seriously why have we clouded higher Education and minor league football.

The NFL needs a farm system a serious farm system and we can drop these charades. The farm system can even use the college names and facilities that exist now, but lets drop the student athlete garbage.

Oh wait we cant do that. The NFL would then have to worry about insurance and pensions...theye couldnt imagine paying players for the money they make

It's not just the NFL that wouldn't want that scenario.

It's not just the NFL that wouldn't want that scenario.

not to totally hijack my own thread; but I am curious as to who else you mean

not to totally hijack my own thread; but I am curious as to who else you mean

The Universities I'm guessing...

not to totally hijack my own thread; but I am curious as to who else you mean

Colleges. You can't have a hybrid system where college football players are paid by the professional clubs. It would cause a legislative nightmare with other sports, and colleges make way too much money with the status quo and wouldn't want a true minor league football system.

It's not just the NFL that wouldn't want that scenario.

Sure, and obviously, college sports make huge, huge money because of this marriage of the academic institutions with legalized slave labor.

Stories like this just really make me look at the big picture about how ridiculous it all is. Every Saturday, stadiums of 50,000+ fill up, cheering on players and teams who are only very loosely associated with the academic institutions they supposedly represent. I guess we're cheering the athletic departments rather than the colleges, so I don't necessarily think WE'RE wrong, we're just knowingly along for the ride.

In a way, big time college basketball is even more ridiculous - you have several games a week, about half of which you have to travel to. A Wednesday night game between two teams 1,000 miles apart wipes out up to 3 days of classes for the visiting team's players. They HAVE to get special breaks academically, no regular student with that kind of travel schedule could POSSIBLY ever graduate.

Sure, and obviously, college sports make huge, huge money because of this marriage of the academic institutions with legalized slave labor.

Stories like this just really make me look at the big picture about how ridiculous it all is. Every Saturday, stadiums of 50,000+ fill up, cheering on players and teams who are only very loosely associated with the academic institutions they supposedly represent. I guess we're cheering the athletic departments rather than the colleges, so I don't necessarily think WE'RE wrong, we're just knowingly along for the ride.

In a way, big time college basketball is even more ridiculous - you have several games a week, about half of which you have to travel to. A Wednesday night game between two teams 1,000 miles apart wipes out up to 3 days of classes for the visiting team's players. They HAVE to get special breaks academically, no regular student with that kind of travel schedule could POSSIBLY ever graduate.

After spending time around a bunch of D1-A athletes, I'm convinced the whole system is an absolute sham. I always believed it to be anyway, but as D3 athlete, I was convinced these guys had the "good life." But not anymore. It's bullshit. And sure, a few make it out and become rich beyond their wildest dreams.

But to have academic institutions cosigning on such fraudulence is just criminal to me. Especially given how much money they make or spend on it and voluntarily lose in the pursuit of "notoriety".

Sure, and obviously, college sports make huge, huge money because of this marriage of the academic institutions with legalized slave labor.

Stories like this just really make me look at the big picture about how ridiculous it all is. Every Saturday, stadiums of 50,000+ fill up, cheering on players and teams who are only very loosely associated with the academic institutions they supposedly represent. I guess we're cheering the athletic departments rather than the colleges, so I don't necessarily think WE'RE wrong, we're just knowingly along for the ride.

In a way, big time college basketball is even more ridiculous - you have several games a week, about half of which you have to travel to. A Wednesday night game between two teams 1,000 miles apart wipes out up to 3 days of classes for the visiting team's players. They HAVE to get special breaks academically, no regular student with that kind of travel schedule could POSSIBLY ever graduate.
I see arguments like this all the time, and I frankly don't get this level of cynicism. Maybe I'm just not cynical enough.

"Slave labor"? Please. These kids are getting:

- Free tuition (including post-graduate studies if they graduate before they exhaust their academic eligibility), which at most schools is not an insignificant amount, especially considering how many of these kids are out of state;
- Free room and board (and at the bigger athletic programs this constitutes better & more food and nicer accommodations than the general student body);
- Most schools provide specialized academic tutoring, something well above and beyond what is available for most of the general student body;
- Free health care

Whether or not all of these kids choose to fully take advantage of all of these benefits is up to them. I acknowledge that the dedication to making academic success a priority varies considerably around the country, but in general there's really not a good excuse for most of these kids to walk away in 4-5 years with completely free University education and degree (or degrees).

Yeah, there's a lot of money generated by NCAA football. But for all these people that say we should be paying these kids above and beyond what they already get - do you realize how few athletic departments are self-sufficient? If schools were to be required to pay football (and basketball) players some sum of money, do you realize that would come out of your pockets in the form of state tax dollars?

I recognize that there is a somewhat unfair balance given the fact that due to Title IX stipulations, football players in essence help pay for a large number of "minor" sports. But lets also not forget that most minor sports don't have full scholarships for all athletes on the team the way football and basketball do. Hell, even baseball doesn't have 25 full rides for the team - guys have to end up splitting partial scholarships.

There are plenty of ways the NCAA could improve the system, but I think there are some ways in which they're on the right track: the new provisions that penalize programs by docking scholarships if certain graduation rates aren't met, raising minimum academic performance to remain athletically eligible - these are steps in the right direction.

"Slave labor"? Please. These kids are getting:

- Free tuition (including post-graduate studies if they graduate before they exhaust their academic eligibility), which at most schools is not an insignificant amount, especially considering how many of these kids are out of state;
- Free room and board (and at the bigger athletic programs this constitutes better & more food and nicer accommodations than the general student body);
- Most schools provide specialized academic tutoring, something well above and beyond what is available for most of the general student body;
- Free health care


A lot is offered, no question. But the schools are offering this "value" without any consideration whatsoever of whether the recipients are capable of really benefiting from this value. An a very, very small number of of athletes who accept this "deal" at the highest level of college athletics are motivated in the slightest by what you're saying they get as their end of the bargain. That's what makes the whole thing feel like a sham to me. Apologies to FSU, but no football players go there for the academic opportunities. One side's looking for money, the other side is looking for glory, the ability to play a game at a higher level, and the chance to make millions someday. Academics is the fiction that's thrown in to make everyone feel better, but is absolutely no part of the real deal.

I don't know exactly how many hours a week a top-level division one football or basketball player is required to "work" for the school in an athletic capacity. But I would guess that if you had a son who was going off to school, and told you that he was working a job where he spent that same number of hours (and traveling, and necessary missed classes), you'd be concerned whether he'd be getting his money's worth in an education sense.

But there's also a hell of a lot of value for just being on a top D1 team. How many doors does that open for the guy that doesn't make it to the pros? Even without the degree the connections made and the opportunities created after graduation are a huge incentive.

I get upset with the argument that athletes are mistreated because I put in a crazy number of hours in the theatre department as an undergrad(2-3 in the afternoon in the shop and 3-4 most weeks at night in rehearsal) and I didn't get anything extra. Hell, I had to claw for every dollar I got in scholarships because of the bias against theatre students even though I graduated with a 3.9.

I'll agree that the way many college athletes are treated is shameful, but the answer isn't give them a pay check. The best way to lessen abuse of college athletes is to reduce the role of athletics on campus, but I dount many people would be in favor of that.

Wait, so we're on the "we should pay the poor athletes" threadjack? Even tho Eaglesfan already said it, can I cut through the next 40 posts of nonsensical bickering and go straight to the "unless you have a airtight legal way around Title IX where you can avoid paying women's volleyball players the same as football, just stop already" post?

Now, can we get back to the actual meat of the thread?

SI

I get upset with the argument that athletes are mistreated because I put in a crazy number of hours in the theatre department as an undergrad(2-3 in the afternoon in the shop and 3-4 most weeks at night in rehearsal) and I didn't get anything extra. Hell, I had to claw for every dollar I got in scholarships because of the bias against theatre students even though I graduated with a 3.9.



Theater didn't make a penny for the school (neither did your 3.9) - that's why you didn't get anything extra, not because there was a "bias".

They can't work. They're usually steered to the easier majors. The academic tutors job is to keep the kids eligible. And the argument that they're "going to school for free" is bull. The kid working in the computer center, in the library or other areas of campus have it a lot easier than the kids on the field. Does that mean we ought to weep for them? No.

But they call them "revenue generating sports" for a reason.

If a school will lower its academic standards to admit a kid that otherwise would not be eligible on the basis that his or her athletic ability is a boon to the institution, to me, it depends on the mission of the institution to determine whether it's criminal. If it's Olde State U, meh. It's probably a wash when they've got a student body in excess of 30,000.

But when you're talking about otherwise strong schools that are letting in kids that either aren't going to make it or who go there to play a sport and little else, to me that's just wrong. And it's not to say that I expect the colleges and universities to get these kids up to par.

But at the point that they're not eligible and that they're just being pushed through school, they'd be better off in other situations and you can't give me the "they're giving opportunities to kids that wouldn't otherwise have them" because that a line of hooey. They could let those sorts of kids in and never, ever given them a ball to play with and help them become productive citizens.

So I used to think you ought to pay these players, but I don't buy that anymore. I don't think they ought to be paid. For those of us who paid our way through school using GI Bill, Financial Aid, Loans or whatever else to make it work, having to cry about going to practice isn't something I really have a lot of sympathy for...especially having paid to be an athlete, rather than being paid to be one, even if it's nominal.

But it just seems to me that so many of these schools are abandoning their missions and millions of taxpayer dollars by just subsidizing an entire enterprise that could killed off tomorrow by a variety of enterprising individuals with deep pockets.

Wait, so we're on the "we should pay the poor athletes" threadjack? Even tho Eaglesfan already said it, can I cut through the next 40 posts of nonsensical bickering and go straight to the "unless you have a airtight legal way around Title IX where you can avoid paying women's volleyball players the same as football, just stop already" post?

Now, can we get back to the actual meat of the thread?

SI

Fair point.

I guess to the meat of the thread though - who cares that a bunch of dumb jocks cheated on their test?

I don't know exactly how many hours a week a top-level division one football or basketball player is required to "work" for the school in an athletic capacity. But I would guess that if you had a son who was going off to school, and told you that he was working a job where he spent that same number of hours (and traveling, and necessary missed classes), you'd be concerned whether he'd be getting his money's worth in an education sense.


Maximum 20 hours/week, also maximum 4 hours/day. A game/match/other competition, regardless of actual length, counts as 3 hours towards the week, and no practice activity can be held after it that day.

Fair point.

I guess to the meat of the thread though - who cares that a bunch of dumb jocks cheated on their test?

Good point. Thread over :D

Seriously, tho. We've had this argument at least 3 or 4 times a year and a cursory "oh, the poor athletes" routine gets tired because it doesn't take the big picture into account.

SI

Fair point.

I guess to the meat of the thread though - who cares that a bunch of dumb jocks cheated on their test?

Florida State, for one, given that their Honor Code (which applies to all students) can give a variety of penalties for cheating. Given that this is a pattern with a group and not a one-time offense, it qualifies as "egregious" under the code; penalties can range from additional replacement academic work through failure of the course or the assignment through suspension or expulsion from the university.

Maximum 20 hours/week, also maximum 4 hours/day. A game/match/other competition, regardless of actual length, counts as 3 hours towards the week, and no practice activity can be held after it that day.

Thanks, good info. Though of course, that's not going to include travel time and time away from campus for road games. (Which in basketball, is really going to screw with class schedules with the midweek games).

20 hrs/week is a huge amount of time for a job/activity any student, ESPECIALLY one that wouldn't even be admitted to the school if he wasn't an athlete. Sometimes the cheating is at blatant as it is with FSU in this case, but more often, it'll be a little more subtle in terms of special privileges, etc.

I was at Syracuse in the late 90s, and had some big lecture-hall classes with some of the athletes from that time. You'd see their names on the attendance sheet, or hear their names called in the smaller group sessions, but they were just never, ever there. (The exception was Etan Thomas, who still plays with the Washington Wizards. I'd stumble into computer labs all boozed up late at night on weekends to send emails, and he'd actually be there working on some school project).

I know Bowden didn't run that show over there but he had to be aware of this stuff. We have two players who are suspended with more then 15 who are being looked at closely.

The NFL wouldn't want it. The universities wouldn't want it. The biggie? The FANS wouldn't want it.

I'm a pro football fan more than a college one. (ditto with basketball, hockey, baseball and virtually any other sport) But when you start talking about the die hard college football fans, you won't find a more rabid fan base in any other sport. Down south recruiting is on the radio 364 days a year. (and they have reruns talking about recruiting on Christmas Day)

You are talking about stadiums that fill up 80 to 100k full of people each week. Nebraska virtually shuts down on game day. You simply aren't taking that away.

Is it a sham? Yes, it's a sham. You go to college to fulfill your career aspirations. (or to get laid by hot coeds) (or both) Yet, if you want to be a football player or a star in the WNBA, you are required to do things that wouldn't be expected of any other student. Other students aren't forbidden to take jobs during the season for example.

I have the same sympathy for a women's soccer player who has no interest in an education, but just wants to play soccer for four years. I think it's insane that we expect someone who just wants to play a sport to get an education with it. If they want the education, great, it should always be offered to them. If they don't? Let em play and be done with it.

That said, we have rules. No matter how stupid the rules are, you know they have to be followed. FSU is going to pay (and should pay) a steep price if these allegations are proven true.

Wait, so we're on the "we should pay the poor athletes" threadjack? Even tho Eaglesfan already said it, can I cut through the next 40 posts of nonsensical bickering and go straight to the "unless you have a airtight legal way around Title IX where you can avoid paying women's volleyball players the same as football, just stop already" post?


I got an easy airtight way for you. Change the law.:)

Or perhaps pay all the athletes (including volleyball players) the same (a decent stipend, not some big salary) so at least they aren't tempted to take $500 in a brown paper bag since besides the free room and board and education they have no money to spend at all? I mean the athletes (as a general amorphous group which of course includes football and basketball) does make the colleges millions and millions of dollars.

RAs are required to work 20 hours per week, although there are some thing sthat happen in addition to those 20 hours that really make it a bit more. They get room and board. When I was a grad RA, I got tuition as well. And I couldn't have another job on campus. Know why? Becuase being an RA paid for everything and it was my job.

Why treat atheletes with a similar deal differently? If they aren't allowed to get another job, that's fine. Studies show that academics really start to drop off after a student has more than approximately 20 hours per week (done by higher ed people in higher ed programs. I could not gie you the citing since I no longer work in higher ed, but I remember specific studies being cited several times).

I get tired of hearing that a college student athelete didn't have money fora sports coat for his date. College is about pverty, making a living with very little to nothing. That's like every other college activity. I had to take out minor loans while an RA to get books and such, around 1k each semester, which was very reasonable. My job paid for everything else.

Why shoudl atheletes be given special treatment when people in band, the aforementioend theater, RAs, and tons of other students are not? Lots of students work hard whil ein college and have to eek by. that's college. Just because we happen to live in a country where football teams make money whereas fencing teams do not doesn't mean certain atheletes should get money over others - that's a spurious claim.


-Abe

I got an easy airtight way for you. Change the law.:)

Or perhaps pay all the athletes (including volleyball players) the same (a decent stipend, not some big salary) so at least they aren't tempted to take $500 in a brown paper bag since besides the free room and board and education they have no money to spend at all? I mean the athletes (as a general amorphous group which of course includes football and basketball) does make the colleges millions and millions of dollars.


That's a bad idea. Sure, U of M and Ohio State and USC could porbably do that, but not all programs, even at a 1A level rake in the dough, as you suggest. Take EMU for example. EMU couldn't afford to do that, and even if they did, it certainly wouldn't be at the level of U of M for example.

Would you give schools that already have a huge advantage in recruiting such as Miami and Texas even greater leverage because they can offer a bigger stipend? Then there would be a fight among the big schools for who would pa ystudents the most, and that would get out of control very quickly.

Right now, Appalachain State and Kansas offer me the same immediate benefit to play football. Add $500 a semester (or whatever) to that amount, and suddenly it's a different ballgame entirely.

Or, you could legislate it. Make all teams in a division, like 1a, pay the same amount of money to all atheletes. But that will be a lot harder on the aforemetnioned EMUs out there than the U of Ms. Besides, if the idea of paying atheletes is a free market, they make money for the institution so lets pay them idea, then if we mandate a certain payment no matter how much money they make for an institution,m we have instituted an indea that goes against the very reason for the change to begin with.

Maybe this will finally get Bobby out and let Joe Paterno have his rightful place as all time winningest coach.

Maybe this will finally get Bobby out and let Joe Paterno have his rightful place as all time winningest coach.

:rolleyes:


I think players should get atleast free healthcare after college because the school makes so much money off them and the players really don't get much of anything. Sure they get a free education, free room & board, but look at what they give up in order to get those things.

There are alot of players who will never play in the NFL but will suffer though life long injuries as a result of playing college ball which really doesn't give them health care once they graduate.(I am not certain about that point because every school is different.)

Anxiety
I have a family member who plays college ball and trust me football players give up alot more then an average student. The nights I visit he and his teammates come home tired and go thru the routine of icing everything down and popping pills to dull some minor injury they have. The average college student doesn't go through that because the only time there are tired is when they are done partying,, having sex, or some other random activity. Other then that they have enough time in the day to go to class, study, have sex, party, have sex again and go home to sleep it off.

Then again I maybe jaded.

Have many friends on band scholarships?

Have many friends on band scholarships?

How much money does band bring to the program?
How many band people have to deal with life long injuries?

Disappointed, but not terribly surprised, about this. Bobby has never seemed very trustworthy. My parents are FSU alums, so I'm sure they are upset that this was going on at their school.

Now if this happened under JoePa at PSU, I would be shocked.

:rolleyes:

You showed me.

How much money does band bring to the program?
How many band people have to deal with life long injuries?

The first is specious at best and probably spurious.

The second is unknown obviously, by you and me.

Why treat atheletes with a similar deal differently?

Because they are different.

They're barely students. They're not there to go to school. They're there to make the school money. Like a fundraising consultant or something. If RAs made schools millions of dollars, the application process would be WAY different for them - nobody would care about your academic credenitals.

Schools give some kids who can barely read the "value" of classes the're not getting anything out of, and doesn't benefit them in the least. Could some take advantage? Sure, but that's not the point.

Florida St. really should be able to just offer high school seniors a 4-year employment contract, and consider them employees. If they want to go to a class or two, that can be a side benefit. But to offer it as THE value when neither side cares about it, the school isn't selecting people based on it, and many of the students aren't capable of taking advantage of it is ridiculous. No one else sees that?

I LOL at regular students who don't understand why big-time athletes get breaks that they don't.

How much money does band bring to the program?
How many band people have to deal with life long injuries?

a little off topic, but to answer...

1) The marching band...very little from ticket sales (mostly parents & former members) but it can be huge in donations towards the program. You can't really compare this to football though, so many people out there just can't sit through a band competion because they either aren't interested or aren't educated enough to know what's going on. It's what they add to the game though, as much as I hate a lot of these bands you have to give them credit for "marketing" their programs...Script Ohio, Conquest by USC, the 5th Quarter by Wisconsin, Grambling/Southern Battle of the Bands, Hail to the Victors...ect.

2) (Stands up and raises hand)...I've seen my share of blown out knees and screwed up ankles...again hard to compare a contact sport with what a band does on the field though. You can add in cheer in here too. But how many of these people had to pay out of pocket for all of school and all their medical bills and rehab from the start? You get hurt as an athlete and it's pretty much on the school.

a little off topic, but to answer...

1) The marching band...very little from ticket sales (mostly parents & former members) but it can be huge in donations towards the program. You can't really compare this to football though, so many people out there just can't sit through a band competion because they either aren't interested or aren't educated enough to know what's going on. It's what they add to the game though, as much as I hate a lot of these bands you have to give them credit for "marketing" their programs...Script Ohio, Conquest by USC, the 5th Quarter by Wisconsin, Grambling/Southern Battle of the Bands, Hail to the Victors...ect.

2) (Stands up and raises hand)...I've seen my share of blown out knees and screwed up ankles...again hard to compare a contact sport with what a band does on the field though. You can add in cheer in here too. But how many of these people had to pay out of pocket for all of school and all their medical bills and rehab from the start? You get hurt as an athlete and it's pretty much on the school.

Fair Points.

Like I said earlier I think football players should be given free healthcare because many of them never make it to the NFL and many of them have to deal with injuries for the rest of their life. While I am sure band has its injuries when compared to football it seems minimal.

Football usually funds the athletic program(band included if I am not mistaken.) Those kids don't need money because even though they are on scholarship they still get grants, loans and money laced handshakes. I am more in favor of the healthcare but then again I am bias because I have a family member who will likely have to deal with his injuries for the rest of his life.

Disappointed, but not terribly surprised, about this. Bobby has never seemed very trustworthy. My parents are FSU alums, so I'm sure they are upset that this was going on at their school.

Now if this happened under JoePa at PSU, I would be shocked.

I think JoePa is pretty tough when it comes to academics.

In everything sport expect football, you have options to play the game professionally. In hoops, you can head to Europe and play professional basketball.

Fair Points.

Like I said earlier I think football players should be given free healthcare because many of them never make it to the NFL and many of them have to deal with injuries for the rest of their life. While I am sure band has its injuries when compared to football it seems minimal.

Football usually funds the athletic program(band included if I am not mistaken.) Those kids don't need money because even though they are on scholarship they still get grants, loans and money laced handshakes. I am more in favor of the healthcare but then again I am bias because I have a family member who will likely have to deal with his injuries for the rest of his life.


I can understand the healthcare part and that part only, and only to a small extent.

No one I know has gotten a "money laced handshake" being "joe student" ...loans, what's so fair about a regular student getting those vs. a full ride? one you get with no strings attached the other you pay for the next 10 years after school is out.

The problem is at what point is the healthcare finished? If it's a broken bone in their leg shouldn't it cese once the bone is healed? Why should the school continue to provide free coverage for this minor injury? What if it's off the field (car accident) why should the school be paying for that? This could lead to some big time fraud and as a result....higher premiums for "joe public". The students & athletes also get a discount healthcare premium through their current provider and through student health at most colleges and universities. If the injury happens during their Freshmen year they have 5-6 years of free health care as they rehab...what happens in their Senior year (I don't know maybe your example @ FSU could help fill in that blank) Finally, if the college athlete is playing college ball to make it to the majors they need to get a grip on reality. What % of college athletes get to the majors? and what % of those make it? In the NFL I believe the average career of a player is something like 3.5 years...I hope they planned ahead by being a student-athlete and can use their education to keep them going after their NFL career or college career is over...you never know when an injury might happen.

Sorry to hear about your family member/brother who is dealing with some injuries I hope he heals up and gets better soon.

Noop:

I'm not sure I agree on Health Insurance after they graduate, but I think it would be very reasonable for schools to be required to have an insurance policy that would somehow provide money to players that suffer certain injuries?

:rolleyes:


I think players should get atleast free healthcare after college because the school makes so much money off them and the players really don't get much of anything. Sure they get a free education, free room & board, but look at what they give up in order to get those things.

There are alot of players who will never play in the NFL but will suffer though life long injuries as a result of playing college ball which really doesn't give them health care once they graduate.(I am not certain about that point

I can understand the healthcare thing, but I don't know how it could be paid for. Yes, Football is a major source of revenue for top schools, but the NCAA isn't made up of these schools only. The smaller conferences and and most division 1-AA schools don't operate with a massive amount of revenue.

Even if paid for by the NCAA, you're talking hundreds of schools and hundreds of millions of dollars.

I think the bottom line is there is a risk these players are knowingly taking playing a sport...be it high school, college, pro or even intermurals (sp?)
and in some cases there is also a potential reward (contracts, endorsements, scholarships, picture on the rec. room wall) and do they want to take the risk to get the reward?

Wait, so we're on the "we should pay the poor athletes" threadjack? Even tho Eaglesfan already said it, can I cut through the next 40 posts of nonsensical bickering and go straight to the "unless you have a airtight legal way around Title IX where you can avoid paying women's volleyball players the same as football, just stop already" post?

Now, can we get back to the actual meat of the thread?

SI

well, they already get the same. as do the baseball, wrestling, minor men's sports, and women's sports thorugh full scholarships.

well, they already get the same. as do the baseball, wrestling, minor men's sports, and women's sports thorugh full scholarships.

you can strike Baseball from that list....I believe it's 35 man rosters and 11.5 scholarships. Most are on partial scholarships.

As for the healthcare thing I think it should be limited to extreme cases and should atleast help pay for some of the medical costs. I think that is fair for every college sport. The college does not have to pay everything after graduation but they should atleast help the player pay some of those bills if he/she requires more surgey.

Again I am bias.

Theater didn't make a penny for the school (neither did your 3.9) - that's why you didn't get anything extra, not because there was a "bias".

Bull. The history major with the 3.0 that was getting a full ride wasn't bringing the dollars to the school either. Trust me the academic achievments of those in the arts are consistently undervalued by administrators. Most of them don't view the arts as real classes.

As for the healthcare thing I think it should be limited to extreme cases and should atleast help pay for some of the medical costs. I think that is fair for every college sport. The college does not have to pay everything after graduation but they should atleast help the player pay some of those bills if he/she requires more surgey.

Again I am bias.

Single payer healthcare. Problem solved.

Maybe its me but we have a case of geeks versus jocks happening in this thread.

Maybe its me but we have a case of geeks versus jocks happening in this thread.

Ooh, which am I? :-D

I think I'm a jock but my wife says I'm a geek. This thread makes me SO conflicted! :mad: ;)

I guess it's too late to suggest that you guys look at the facts before you go ape-shit blaming this on Bobby or jump to the conclusion that this is primarily a football issue. But I'll post the facts anyway:


"Most of the athletes involved compete in spring sports. Baseball, the highest-profile spring sport, is not impacted. None of the FSU athletes who took part in the NCAA track and field championships last summer are involved...The athletes do not include any from men's basketball or baseball. No football players who have competed in games this season are involved."

Anxiety
I have a family member who plays college ball and trust me football players give up alot more then an average student. The nights I visit he and his teammates come home tired and go thru the routine of icing everything down and popping pills to dull some minor injury they have. The average college student doesn't go through that because the only time there are tired is when they are done partying,, having sex, or some other random activity. Other then that they have enough time in the day to go to class, study, have sex, party, have sex again and go home to sleep it off.

Then again I maybe jaded.

I seemed to have missed out in the have sex, party, have sex again, and go home to sleep it off part of college when I was actually studying instead of living in a bad 90s movie of what college is supposed to be.

SI

"No football players who have competed in games this season are involved."

FWIW, I'm thougt I read that any football players involved were suspended prior to the season for this season. May just be the one guy.

I seemed to have missed out in the have sex, party, have sex again, and go home to sleep it off part of college when I was actually studying instead of living in a bad 90s movie of what college is supposed to be.

SI

Good for you.

Damn, I swore I wasnt going to get into this...

Maximum 20 hours/week, also maximum 4 hours/day. A game/match/other competition, regardless of actual length, counts as 3 hours towards the week, and no practice activity can be held after it that day.

If you really believe this you are either naive or missguided.
20Hours/week Saturday games do not count. "Non-Mandatory" weight room sessions dont count. Even though a coach can say be in the weight room at 4:30Am EVERY DAY (thats 7 day a week off season 6 during) for a 3 hour workout or you wont play.

Then there is film study after practice, again its "non-mandatory" but if you wanna sniff the field you are there.

In my 2.5 years playing D1 football Id guess I averaged 55-70 hours/week doing "football stuff" and I am not counting travel time there.

RAs are required to work 20 hours per week, although there are some thing sthat happen in addition to those 20 hours that really make it a bit more. They get room and board. When I was a grad RA, I got tuition as well. And I couldn't have another job on campus. Know why? Becuase being an RA paid for everything and it was my job.

Why treat atheletes with a similar deal differently? If they aren't allowed to get another job, that's fine. Studies show that academics really start to drop off after a student has more than approximately 20 hours per week (done by higher ed people in higher ed programs. I could not gie you the citing since I no longer work in higher ed, but I remember specific studies being cited several times).

I get tired of hearing that a college student athelete didn't have money fora sports coat for his date. College is about pverty, making a living with very little to nothing. That's like every other college activity. I had to take out minor loans while an RA to get books and such, around 1k each semester, which was very reasonable. My job paid for everything else.

Why shoudl atheletes be given special treatment when people in band, the aforementioend theater, RAs, and tons of other students are not? Lots of students work hard whil ein college and have to eek by. that's college. Just because we happen to live in a country where football teams make money whereas fencing teams do not doesn't mean certain atheletes should get money over others - that's a spurious claim.


-Abe

A few problems here
#1 Scholarship athletes cant take out a few "minor" loans its an NCAA violation
#2 Ive never seen an RA where he was told you will not wear "x" at any time on campus. You will not go here or there at anytime (namely bars). You will not consume alcohol even if of age,etc. And this is the situation at many places (Im not saying it is followed, or enforced, but you always have the threat of having your scholarship yanked if you disobey)
#3 No RA is ever told in year 3 sorry you aren't a good enough RA, you are fired, and you will have to reapply to join the general populous. It hapens in athletics far too often
#4 You just cant ignore the facts of the volume of money made on the blood of specifically college football players.
Lets look at Clemson (sorry I know their numbers and feel comfortable discussing)
6 home games per year.
80,000 fans per game
average $52 per ticket (this is the weighted average of both high and low cost games and GA - Booth price ranges)

Nets a Grosss annual income of
$24,960,000
Now Coaching and training staff totals
$3,000,000

Lets say they spend $1,000,000 on equipment (they dont)

you still have a net incomee of over 20 million

Last year concession added 4 million Parking adds revenue etc. But their are losses and costs associated there that we will say negates those (it doesnt)

so you have 100 players and 20 million dollars. PER YEAR. Dont think you could provide some benefits?
BTW when did RAs, Bands,Cheerleaders, etc bring 20mill to a school

:rolleyes:


I think players should get atleast free healthcare after college because the school makes so much money off them and the players really don't get much of anything. Sure they get a free education, free room & board, but look at what they give up in order to get those things.

There are alot of players who will never play in the NFL but will suffer though life long injuries as a result of playing college ball which really doesn't give them health care once they graduate.(I am not certain about that point because every school is different.)

Anxiety
I have a family member who plays college ball and trust me football players give up alot more then an average student. The nights I visit he and his teammates come home tired and go thru the routine of icing everything down and popping pills to dull some minor injury they have. The average college student doesn't go through that because the only time there are tired is when they are done partying,, having sex, or some other random activity. Other then that they have enough time in the day to go to class, study, have sex, party, have sex again and go home to sleep it off.

Then again I maybe jaded.

There are a few great points here.
As an athlete you are told what,when and how much you can eat. Your weight is maintained by trainers, you take supplements and vitamins by mandate. Your classes and professors are picked for you. You DONT have a normal college life. You can be removed from a team for having passing grades (drop below a 2.5 and you were off the team when I played)

Healthcare is another gereat point.
This is the key to me.
I know many here have heard my story, but it bears repeating. I destroyed my knee, INSTANTLY LOST MY SCHOLARSHIP, and had to re-apply to even join the school for the following semester. The athletic booster club (IPTAY) stepped up and paid for my education through a charitable trust they had, thanks there. Otherwise I would have been done. Because I was ineligible for any grants or loans until the end of the academic year because I was still a clearinghouse athlete.

The University picked up my initial surgery. The 11 that have followed have all been paid by me. I will limp the rest of my life.

And what exactly did I get from this?
A few cool stories. Oh yeah, I get to walk on the field before 1 game per year if I choose.
Lifelong contacts and open doors?
Not hardly. There are 100 players on each D1 (or BowlChampionshipSubdivision teams) team you dont exactly have doors opened for you because you were on a team, if you were a star sure, not just on the team.


Look I woulnt trade anything for my experience, but its not all glitz and glamour. Quite frankly those that say Athletes have it made, most likely wouldnt last 1 week in the typical athletes life. (I mean really How many times have you walked into a dorm after midnight from practice, treatment, and film sessions and then having to take a cort. shot just so you could stay up and study, then go to a 4:30 weight session before an 8Am class, I think I avergaed 2.5 hours of sleep per night plus a short nap during the day)


Im sorry girls fencing team members dont go through this. Nor do Mens track athletes. Football players are treated differently and should be compensated differently.

Thats why I say make the teams semi-pro and remove the title Student athlete. You can still have all the same teams USC Trojans, Oklahoma Sooners, etc. The schools can still pocket some money, play the games at the facilities, and be a representation of the school and a system could be developed to make it all work. I envision a system where a team could sign 5 prospects per year and these chippers would be paid a higher salary. The remainder would go into an allocation draft. So a player would have the choice of going to a lesser school and using one of their price tags or going draft and going to a better exposed team. Now honestly, we will not supprt 119 teams this way. Maybe 40. These could be a new division. the remainder could all become part of a larger PCS
structure that is for TRUE student athletes.

IDK its late, im tired Ill type more later

So if the life of a D1 football player is so terrible and the chances of going pro are so terrible, why be a D1 football player?

I can understand the complaint that football players aren't compensated properly for the value they bring, but then why play?

So if the life of a D1 football player is so terrible and the chances of going pro are so terrible, why be a D1 football player?

I can understand the complaint that football players aren't compensated properly for the value they bring, but then why play?

Who's saying it's terrible?

If you're a big football star in high school, it's only natural to want to test yourself at the next level. The chance to be on TV, play in a big time college football program, and perhaps even have a chance at millions of dollars with the NFL. And for many, it's a great experience.

That doesn't mean that the schools aren't taking advantage of them, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't get a salary for what they bring to the school.

It's not a black/white, all or nothing discussion. But I'm convinced that if you're in favor of the status quo, you're insane. If you want to consider them employees and pay them what they're worth, great. If you want to treat them like students, require them to meet academic requirements for admission, and cut back on the what's required of them as athletes (see CUTiger's post), great. But the status quo - absolutely ridiculous.

Yet, it still seems that the majority feels otherwise - college athletes should shut up because they're getting an "education". It doesn't matter that they're putting 55-70 hrs a week (before travel) into making the school money. It doesn't matter that NO STUDENT (let alone one who probably couldn't have qualified for admission if they weren't an athlete), could possibly succeed in school with that kind of outside commitment.

Who's saying it's terrible?

If you're a big football star in high school, it's only natural to want to test yourself at the next level. The chance to be on TV, play in a big time college football program, and perhaps even have a chance at millions of dollars with the NFL. And for many, it's a great experience.

That doesn't mean that the schools aren't taking advantage of them, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't get a salary for what they bring to the school.

It's not a black/white, all or nothing discussion. But I'm convinced that if you're in favor of the status quo, you're insane. If you want to consider them employees and pay them what they're worth, great. If you want to treat them like students, require them to meet academic requirements for admission, and cut back on the what's required of them as athletes (see CUTiger's post), great. But the status quo - absolutely ridiculous.

Yet, it still seems that the majority feels otherwise - college athletes should shut up because they're getting an "education". It doesn't matter that they're putting 55-70 hrs a week (before travel) into making the school money. It doesn't matter that NO STUDENT (let alone one who probably couldn't have qualified for admission if they weren't an athlete), could possibly succeed in school with that kind of outside commitment.

I'm not particularly for or against the status quo, I just don't get the slave labor comments. In most of the world, if the job requirements are too high or the pay is too low, people don't complain about slave labor. They just quit their jobs and work somewhere else.

I'm sure the original idea was that athletes would get a free education to play football. If the education they are getting now is worthless because the football demands are too high to allow them to learn, why not walk away?

I do agree that football players don't get back equal value for what they give. I also agree that the system could be much better. But I also think that this exploitation could be very easily avoided.

Some good points were raised. In addition to the stipend I proposed, I'd also like to see the college buy disability insurance for all athletes (including non-football) -- different from free healthcare -- and allow an athlete to keep his/her scholarship even after injury. I think that gets it close to fair.

Why play?
What a question.

I'll give you one honest person's answer.
It's what I did. Face it at 6'nothing and an offensive guard/center I wasnt heading to the NFL anytime soon.

Yet it was my way out. I grew up in government housing and bumming with friends. I was the first person in either of my families to earn a degree. Football opened that door. I took it serious.

But still from the time I was 7 years old I WAS A FOOTBALL PLAYER. It was what I identified my life as. So much so that when I got hurt I fell into a deep depression and developed a major drug problem as a (in retrospect) coping mechanism. I remember the feeling the minute I heard a doctor say to a then friend, "Oh no he'll never play again." I remember honestly thinking I wish they would just go ahead and kill me. I AM A FOOTBALL PLAYER. If I cant do that I am nothing.

Now years later that sounds silly. But I can honestly say that like so many I identified myself as that. And were it not for my injury, I would be chasing the CFL, NFL EURO or Arena or semi-pro all over the counrty to this day. I don't think I'd have ever had the strength to quit.

You have to remember, honestly, all too often you have a young adult on the field who has never been good at anything in his life, nor has ever had anything good in his life, but when he steps on that field he is SOMEONE. When he makes a play, or lays a hit and all his friends talk about it for 3 or 4 days, for an instant he is untouchable, he is a god, at least in his own mind.
Its a safe legal gang, it is a sense of family, it is a home a comfort zone and many more things.

To this day going to a football game be it high school, college, pro or my sons pee wee I feel special. That sounds stupid I know, but somehow I still identify with it.

So many things in life winning and losing is arbitrary and subjective. Not on a football field. Every play you win or lose. Every game you win or lose. In a work environment you seldom know if you are winning or losing until the die has been cast. Many times in busineess it is a struggle to see if a project is a success until months or even years later when the project is complete. In football its instant. the ball snap you fire off and 8-10 seconds later you have won or lost, and no one can argue your results. When you blow a guy up and hee is laying on his can, you beat him, its undeniable, and 10 seconds later you get to do it again.

Why play?
In 3 words: For the LOVE

Great posts CU Tiger.

I'm pretty convinced now that some sort of disability insurance should be required for D-I athletes - Football or otherwise.

First at all pardon my ignorance but as a foreigner who has grown in a country (Spain) were studding and sports have nothing in common, I can't understand a lot the reasons (besides tradition and schools income) for the current NCAA/NFL scheme.

- Why to have only 32 teams in a country with 50 states, with tons of major cities etc?

In Spain, as in most of European countries if not all, we have a ladder system. Any person in any city can start a soccer team, you just pay the fees to enter in the lowest regional division and you have a team. There are like 10+ steps in the ladder, from the lowest regional divisions to the 1st division. We have hundreds of soccer teams, each city has a few. That way every young who wants to play the sport, and has some abillity, can do it (not getting paid). If you are good enough, the scouts will discover you, and you will be hired by better teams, higher in the ladder, to the point of reaching one of the top 3 steps in the ladder, where you are paid for playing.

In 3rd division, you get paid just like any other standard job so most of players also study or do something for their future once they retire from soccer.

In 2nd division, you are already paid good amount of money, maybe not to be really rich, but to have a good living forever if you are smart.

In 1st division, you are paid like millions and you are a top star.

The teams move up/down in that ladder system, depending on their sport performances. Reaching the top 3 divisions means tons of money from TV, media coverage sponsors etc.

Every Spanish city has at least one team in the first 3 divisions, and every weekend, the population from those cities roots for it's city team. Some fields get 10,000 persons and some get 100,000 depending on how big is the city. A lot of people pay tickets for both his small city team and for the top team from the closest city that they root for.

Isn't really enough interest on football in other cities besides those 32 to at least bring 20k or 30k persons to a stadium of a team that would play in a second NFL division? As in lower divisions, the players/coaches are paid less than in the top ones, the cost of running a lower division team is way lower than running a top one so even bringing 20k persons into your stadium, and having some local TV coverage, it would be enough income to survive.

- Why to tie studies to sports/ why sports scholarships?

The only scholarships in Spanish universities are for top students, and those scholarships are also tied to your family yearly income, a kid from a rich family wont' get scholarships as he doesn't need them. The scholarships system is towards the average or low income family kid who has proven that he is a good student but can't pay his university education by himself.

I think it's common sense that a person can't be good at everything. If you want to be a top athlete, first you need to have the genetics, and then you need to dedicate most of your time to get better at that sport, training and playing. If you want to be a top scientific, doctor, architect, physic etc, you need first the genetics, then to dedicate most of your time to study.

Why to force a top athlete to also prove that he is a good student? isn't he gifted for the sport? Then give him every chance to become a top athlete and instead of wasting a scholarship on him, give that scholarship to the good student that could become the best doctor in the future.

- Why to only have 300 guys over 23 years old playing professional football in the whole country, a country with 300 Millions habs?

In Europe, if you as a kid, want to play soccer, you try out at one of your city lower league teams, or at a top team kids school. And from there you try to climb to a top team in the top of the ladder. But it means that every Spanish kid has a chance to once reach the top leagues, and it's not related at all to studding, nor you get scholarships for playing the sport.

Only having on mind the top 3 divisions of soccer (the professional ones), we have around 120 teams, with around 30 players per team, that is 3600 professional soccer players in a country with 40 millions habs.

I'm sure that there are tons of undrafted college football players that slip from the scout eyes, but that if given a chance to play and develop in a lower league, they could reach the NFL and become top players (see some current stars that went sent to the NFL Europe).

Resume:
Why isn't the NFL following the Baseball minors system, that if is imho not as good as a ladder system, at least gives a chance to develop and to play to a lot of more players. I bet that there are a lot of samples in baseball history of non highly rated players that joined the minors and ended being top baseball stars.

The answer is probably that the schools make as much money that they don't want to give up on it. Comparing the popularity of college baseball and football i can understand why a minors league system in football would mean tons of money lost for the D1 colleges.

Btw, some time ago i read somewhere about a new football league forming, a mix of college/pro football, with teams hosted by some D1 colleges but with pro players that could serve as development league for the NFL. I forgot the league name and website but maybe you guys have heard about it.

Also what about the NAFL http://www.nafl.org (not our MP league :D ) ? It looks like a minors system already running, is it followed in USA? do they have fans and people going to the stadiums?

#4 You just cant ignore the facts of the volume of money made on the blood of specifically college football players.
Lets look at Clemson (sorry I know their numbers and feel comfortable discussing)
6 home games per year.
80,000 fans per game
average $52 per ticket (this is the weighted average of both high and low cost games and GA - Booth price ranges)

Nets a Grosss annual income of
$24,960,000
Now Coaching and training staff totals
$3,000,000

Lets say they spend $1,000,000 on equipment (they dont)

you still have a net incomee of over 20 million

Last year concession added 4 million Parking adds revenue etc. But their are losses and costs associated there that we will say negates those (it doesnt)

so you have 100 players and 20 million dollars. PER YEAR. Dont think you could provide some benefits?
BTW when did RAs, Bands,Cheerleaders, etc bring 20mill to a school

I'm not trying to make the argument for or against paying athletes, but your numbers are extremely off. You forgot to mention all of the operating expenses, namely annual stadium costs, maintenance, recruiting costs, traveling, etc which will eliminate a lot of that "net income." The number of football programs that turn a profit is pretty low.

Icy, you ask some interesting questions, and I've thought about the same types of things. To me, the problem seems to be that people here don't want to see "minor league football." When people over here hear "professional football," they want NFL-caliber stuff, and it's not going to happen. People will always see another league as competition for the NFL, not as a supplement. With the NFL at the height of its popularity and only getting stronger, very few people are going to care about another league.

You mentioned the NAFL, which is something that few people have even heard of. There are a few small football leagues like that scattered around the country, but they're not the NFL, so they ultimately don't even matter. I'm sure that there are reasons that people can't accept minor league football, but I don't know what those reasons are. Minor league baseball is popular, and even minor league hockey got a nice boom several years ago when the ECHL expanded into the southern US (most of those ECHL teams are gone now, but it helped). The CBA basketball league is one of the longest-running pro sports leagues in the country, and even the inept Isiah Thomas couldn't kill it completely when he was in charge. It's still hanging in there. Football? Nope.

The USFL had the best chance back in the '80s, but it was still seen as competition to the NFL. When the USFL started, the league played a spring schedule and was popular. I think it only worked because it was competing with the NFL for players. Reggie White, Steve Young, and Jim Kelly played in the USFL. Obviously, these guys made it to the Hall of Fame after long NFL careers, but these were the stars of the USFL and gave it some credibility. It wasn't minor league football. It was just a "different" football league. The USFL might have survived if they hadn't tried to switch to a fall schedule and compete with the NFL for scheduling as well as players. The key thing is that it competed with the NFL, and that's why people gave it a chance. If the league went in with the attitude that they were lower-level football, people would have laughed at it.

I agree that student athletes are treated poorly, but I don't think the answer is giving them a paycheck. Are we going to start giving research assistants fair value for the grants they help bring in? And if we're talking about football, are we going to pay the trainers, the cheerleaders and the students working in AD's office a fair rate?

I'd be all for scaling back college athletics and developing a minor league for football players. Trying to make it fair, though, is impossible. At almost every level college just isn't fair.

Why play?
In 3 words: For the LOVE

I get this, but what I don't get is the follow-on comments of athletes should be paid or are treated as slave labor. Everybody knows how the NCAA operates. If you love the game and are willing to deal with the NCAA, great. If not, you can walk away.

A few quick comments.

Football doesn't make tons of money for most of the big universities. Football makes money so that the university can pay to subsidize all the other sports that Title IX forces them to have because of all the football scholarships. And the money that is left over gets reinvested in the football business so that they can make more money in the future, like it is with most enterprises. There isn't an unending amount of free cash floating around. And like everyone else has said, if you pay the football players you will have to pay everyone else. 75 football players x $5,000 a year (approx. 500 bucks a month during the working season) is already nearly 400k. Soon you're getting into a couple of million dollars in additional player payments to people that are already getting free rides. There are a LOT of people that are having to work those 20-40 hours a week in real, miserable jobs without the glory or potential future benefits and they still are having to take out loans to pay for college. My level of sympathy for football players as a whole is not all that high -- although injuries and such are still bad, and those are quite regrettable.

What I don't get, though, is that it's not as if college football players are really ignorant as to what they are getting into! And if they are, educate them about reality instead of talking about re-inventing the football wheel in a way that no one is going to like. But if life is so miserable for them, oh poor football players having to work so much, it's not as if they're having GUNS held to their heads. They can freely quit at any time. Sure, they might play because they love the game, or whatever. Lots of people love playing World of Warcraft, and if they play that for 60 hours a week their lives are going to detonate -- if they're not prepared to deal with that should Blizzard be forced to subsidize their lives? This isn't some major scam where these universities are playing tricks on them, saying it's not going to take up their lives and then BAM, they're being forced to play football all the time. And if there is any kind of fraud going on in that way, that absolutely needs to get fixed.

In the end, life often comes down to situations where you take it or you leave it. If the college football system is screwing some players, once a decent level of information is made available to them they can make their own choices. There are a lot of systems in life that screw a lot of people for being underinformed much, much moreso than major college athletics. At this point college football is so transparent that they should know what they're getting in to, and if they don't like the results of their choices, I'm sorry, but that happens to everyone.

I'm not trying to make the argument for or against paying athletes, but your numbers are extremely off. You forgot to mention all of the operating expenses, namely annual stadium costs, maintenance, recruiting costs, traveling, etc which will eliminate a lot of that "net income." The number of football programs that turn a profit is pretty low.

Operating Expenses
Not Sure I see this one. You cut the grass paint the lines and every 5 years replace the pylons. I'm sure this is less than $1mill per year.

All your security is handled by volunteer poice forces who get to see the game free. Your clean up consists of service fraternities, ROTC, and those doing community service = free. Your concession workers are local charitable organizations that work for a % of the till. Your announcer gets like $500/game amnd chain crews are volunteers.

So at most you employ 3-4 full time grounds keeepers (big schools will have a head with a 100,000 pay check) and replace your equipmeent every 10 years or so. take 1million out to be extra fair

***Oh yeah I forgot light bills and bulbs. So add that in

Stadium Costs
Sorry. NOPE. In my example the stadium was built in the 1941, and all additions have been paid through special fund raisers and private donations. It is paid for and also makes moneey by holding speciaal eeveents and concerts throughout the year as well as having huge conference rooms that rent for 5k/day.

But for arguments sake lets say it cost 1 mill/year

Maintenance
Ok, you have to replace a bathroom trouh or two every decade.
What am i missing here?
Not being trite, simply curious.

But for arguments sake lets say it cost 1 mill/year


Recruiting
Well when you own a University (coompany) plane, your cost are really fuel and pilot time and rental cars and hotels.

Okay add a mill/year here

Traveling
See above.
Plus many hotels give the teams very reduced or damn near free rates, just for publicity.

Again, ill give ya 1 mill / year

So pver estminating every cateegory I have cut the "net" down to "only" 15,000,000/year.

A few quick comments.

Football doesn't make tons of money for most of the big universities. Football makes money so that the university can pay to subsidize all the other sports that Title IX forces them to have because of all the football scholarships. And the money that is left over gets reinvested in the football business so that they can make more money in the future, like it is with most enterprises. There isn't an unending amount of free cash floating around. And like everyone else has said, if you pay the football players you will have to pay everyone else. 75 football players x $5,000 a year (approx. 500 bucks a month during the working season) is already nearly 400k. Soon you're getting into a couple of million dollars in additional player payments to people that are already getting free rides. There are a LOT of people that are having to work those 20-40 hours a week in real, miserable jobs without the glory or potential future benefits and they still are having to take out loans to pay for college. My level of sympathy for football players as a whole is not all that high -- although injuries and such are still bad, and those are quite regrettable.

What I don't get, though, is that it's not as if college football players are really ignorant as to what they are getting into! And if they are, educate them about reality instead of talking about re-inventing the football wheel in a way that no one is going to like. But if life is so miserable for them, oh poor football players having to work so much, it's not as if they're having GUNS held to their heads. They can freely quit at any time. Sure, they might play because they love the game, or whatever. Lots of people love playing World of Warcraft, and if they play that for 60 hours a week their lives are going to detonate -- if they're not prepared to deal with that should Blizzard be forced to subsidize their lives? This isn't some major scam where these universities are playing tricks on them, saying it's not going to take up their lives and then BAM, they're being forced to play football all the time. And if there is any kind of fraud going on in that way, that absolutely needs to get fixed.

In the end, life often comes down to situations where you take it or you leave it. If the college football system is screwing some players, once a decent level of information is made available to them they can make their own choices. There are a lot of systems in life that screw a lot of people for being underinformed much, much moreso than major college athletics. At this point college football is so transparent that they should know what they're getting in to, and if they don't like the results of their choices, I'm sorry, but that happens to everyone.

But again often this is their ONLY chance.
So just quit, sure. But understand where they go. To the ghetto, to the streets, to repeat the cycle.

Universities dont want average to below average students if they arent freakishly gifted athletes.

Now understand, I had a 1350+ SAT and a 3.9 coming out of high school, I could have gotten into most colleges, if I could have afforded it. But that was not the case with most guys I played with.

They can freely quit at any time.

But then they lose their scholarship. A key exception in Division I sports is the Ivy League, where financial aid is entirely need based. Also, the student-athlete is under no obligation to remain on the athletic team and is free to leave without repercussions. Since any financial awards are need-based and administered by the general financial aid office, the Athletic Department cannot influence whether that student can afford to continue school.

The Ivy League system treats student-athletes as if they are students first. If they find that athletics just isn't for them, or if injuries force them out of competition, or if they just want to concentrate on school or other activities, they can move on without having to worry about their financial aid being pulled.

The American sports monopoly sucks. Players fall through the cracks, but the myth that most major league sports in the U.S. are built on, is the notion that they have the 'best' talent. So when guys come from out of the woodwork to do well, everyone is surprised, because they falsely assume that these leagues do the yeoman's work in identifying the best talent.

They don't.

Worse of all of these is football.

But in a sport where the costs are very expensive, where it's very physical and guys get hurt pretty much every time they show up..it'd be hard to conceive a scenario in which a viable minor league could exist out of the NFL.

And owners have paid significant fees to own a franchise in these leagues and so, relegation/promotion isn't something they'll ever accept, because while the teams have their foundations as "clubs" they're far more like franchises of a fast food restaurant than they are anything resembling sports.

That's American sports. Fast food de jour.

Eat up.

But then they lose their scholarship. A key exception in Division I sports is the Ivy League, where financial aid is entirely need based. Also, the student-athlete is under no obligation to remain on the athletic team and is free to leave without repercussions. Since any financial awards are need-based and administered by the general financial aid office, the Athletic Department cannot influence whether that student can afford to continue school.

The Ivy League system treats student-athletes as if they are students first. If they find that athletics just isn't for them, or if injuries force them out of competition, or if they just want to concentrate on school or other activities, they can move on without having to worry about their financial aid being pulled.

And they have a stringent formula in place that prevents schools from recruiting too many students who don't otherwise meet admissions requirements. And Ivy League football teams don't participate in the I-AA playoffs.

Disappointed, but not terribly surprised, about this. Bobby has never seemed very trustworthy. My parents are FSU alums, so I'm sure they are upset that this was going on at their school.

Now if this happened under JoePa at PSU, I would be shocked.

Really? Penn State is not exactly squeaky-clean at all...I know they used to have a lot of white players in the 80s but I don't know why they would have a rep for being more disciplined or whatever than your average program.

After Tony Johnson was driving drunk with a .13 BAC:

Obviously, it will all get blown out of proportion because he is a football player, but he didn't do anything to anybody," Paterno said. "You guys are all going to blow it way out of proportion."

Or of course, Joe's notoriously no-nonsense response to AJ Nicholson (not even one of his players!) getting charged with sexual assault. Nicholson has since been arrested four times and was finally cut by the Bengals.

"He may not have even known what he was getting into, Nicholson. They knock on the door; somebody may knock on the door; a cute girl knocks on the door. What do you do? Geez. I hope thank God they don t knock on my door because I d refer them to a couple of other rooms."

Yup, something like this would NEVER happen at penn state! JoePa wouldn't allow it, no sir. He wants to instill values in these young men that go beyond football, driving drunk and forcing yourself on a girl.

In the end, life often comes down to situations where you take it or you leave it. If the college football system is screwing some players, once a decent level of information is made available to them they can make their own choices. There are a lot of systems in life that screw a lot of people for being underinformed much, much moreso than major college athletics. At this point college football is so transparent that they should know what they're getting in to, and if they don't like the results of their choices, I'm sorry, but that happens to everyone.

I still don't think the issue is players been "screwed". Being a big-time college athlete is probably something almost all of us would do, if we had the talent. The pros outweigh the cons for most of them.

My reaction to the original post was just the silliness of the American marriage of sports and academics. Whenever we hear talk of cheating on tests, graduation rates, people skipping classes, I can't imagine why anyone would care about any of that (in the present big-time college sports landscape). It's as ridiculous as caring about how many books Tom Brady read last year, or how good he is at math.

One thought on the possibility of a minor pro football league in the US. I agree with the consensus that it's an uphill battle (to say the least). But there's one small area where a league could have an advantage over the NFL - earlier access to talent. What if an league started throwing money at high school seniors? Most would still take the traditional college route, but I'm sure a few would be tempted by the upfront money, and a chance to focus fully on football rather than Physics classes. And if this minor league otherwise had talent even comparable to the XFL, it could still be a feeder league to the NFL. But could such a league make money? I don't see why not. It wouldn't be a competitor to the NFL, but I still think there's an appetite for spring outdoor football on TV.

I still don't think the issue is players been "screwed". Being a big-time college athlete is probably something almost all of us would do, if we had the talent. The pros outweigh the cons for most of them.





For 1 week I agree.
After that doubt it.

Everyonee has the talent if they want it bad enough. VERY few get cut in college football