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I'm usually a big "let them play" type of guy, but since this is the Patriots* doing it, I figure I'll just go ahead an point it out. Losman could have easily tore his knee up badly on this cheapshot.

Every team does it. Not a big deal.

Fine?

I would freaking hope so. I mean JP sucks bad enough on his own, he shouldn't have to come back from a major knee reconstruction.


Bills | Losman's agent says Wilfork should be fined
Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:55:59 -0700

Rodney McKissic, of the Buffalo News, reports the agent for Buffalo Bills QB J.P. Losman, Gary Wichard, said New England Patriots DL Vince Wilfork should be fined for the hit he delivered to Losman in Week 3. "To me, the guy shot his elbow out directly at J.P.'s knee," Wichard said. "(Wilfork) was looking straight at him. This guy wasn't tumbling over and falling into the quarterback, like Kimo von Oelhoffen did to Carson Palmer a couple years ago. J.P. is very lucky that wasn't a very serious injury. I think that guy should be fined."

in before the flamewar!

I root against the patriots as much as the next non-patriots fan, and i could see a fine for this, but doesn't an O-lineman trip him up? To suggest he's attempting to drop an elbow on Losman's knee seems absurd to me, he was going for a little shove and something bad happened.

Then ban Kimo von Oelhoffen

he was going for a little shove

With his elbow?

I'm surprised the NFL hasn't immediately destroyed the videotape of this incident...

He got tripped by the lineman, he'll get fined, have fun with the Patriots bashing.

Bring on Trent Edwards! go Stanford!

He got tripped by the lineman, he'll get fined, have fun with the Patriots bashing.


"...I don't understand it!!! We have Bill Belichick AND Randy Moss AND Tom Brady on our team! We never miss an opportunity to talk about how unappreciated our team is...WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT LIKE US?!?"

it just doesn't add up, I tell you. At least Yankee fans understand why no one can stand their team.

I don't know.. maybe I just hold grudges a lot longer or something, but by far I still despise the 49ers more than any team in football. Maybe its because the Pats are in the AFC and don't really interact with the Falcons much, but I don't really dislike them and actually think they are a fun team to watch.

I guess by far I find the AFC alot more fun to watch these days period, but it doesn't make me despise any of them. Maybe it would be different if my Falcons actually had a shot at contending or something.

It's possible that Schaub's performance against the Pats a couple years ago played a decent sized part in him being coveted by other teams and ultimatly leading to the Falcons being forced to use their current stiff.

Just trying to give you reasons.

With his elbow?

he got tripped by a lineman and was falling. My point is that he maybe gets a fine because he was still aggressively pursuing the QB after the ball was out, but the claims that this was an intentionally dirty play just seems absurd to me watching the replay.

I'll go as far as to point out that the O-Lineman was trying to bring down the pass rusher from behind to prevent him from getting a potentially big hit on Losman.

He sure didn't make an effort NOT to hit Losman.

LOL. Pats fans are funny.

Nobody braces a fall with their elbow. Sheesh.

"...I don't understand it!!! We have Bill Belichick AND Randy Moss AND Tom Brady on our team! We never miss an opportunity to talk about how unappreciated our team is...WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT LIKE US?!?"

it just doesn't add up, I tell you. At least Yankee fans understand why no one can stand their team.

I feel very smug when I tell people I'm a Patriots fan, and enjoy watching their reaction, which is never positive. So I can understand how Yankees fans are and also understand that the Pats are no longer loveable underdogs.

Why would the Patriots be trying to injure JP Losman? If it was Peyton Manning or Ben Roethlisberger, sure, I could see calling this a dirty play, but as long as Losman is the starter in Buffalo, that's two wins a year.

That was sick. He obviously threw that elbow delibirately. Jeez.

Why would the Patriots be trying to injure JP Losman? If it was Peyton Manning or Ben Roethlisberger, sure, I could see calling this a dirty play, but as long as Losman is the starter in Buffalo, that's two wins a year.

Why would the Patriots have to tape signals if they're so good (which I think they are, which is why taping didn't make sense to me)? ;)

I don't think this play should result in anything excessive. Looks like he was pushed into him.

Then ban Kimo von Oelhoffen

Hey that was accidental. He looked concerned right after the play ended too.

Yeah. You could tell that von Oelhoffen felt bad about what happened, as he immediately waved for trainers to come over.

I'm not sure which video some of you are looking at. Yeah, he gets pushed into Losman, but he deliberately reaches his elbow out as he's falling. It's not about Patriots haters or anything else. It's about reality.

I'm not sure which video some of you are looking at. Yeah, he gets pushed into Losman, but he deliberately reaches his elbow out as he's falling. It's not about Patriots haters or anything else. It's about reality.

I'm looking at the one above, where in the second segment he gets tripped (gets his feet grabbed) as he finishes slicing through the line, leading to him falling sideways into Losman. If he's trying to hit Losman with his elbow, he's diving forward with the forearm, not twisting to the side and falling like that. If you are falling on your side, you most certainly are trying to reach out with your arm and take the brunt on your side or on your forearm.

disclaimer: I'm a Pats fan, deal with it :p

LOL. Pats fans are funny.

Nobody braces a fall with their elbow. Sheesh.


nobody?

Not saying this is what he was doing or not, but we break falls with our forearms all the time in karate. Forward fall, side fall, backward fall, all the time I tell you...

FM

Can someone point me to the thread detailing what the Pats did to cheat during the Chargers game? I think I missed it.

Can someone point me to the thread detailing what the Pats did to cheat during the Chargers game? I think I missed it.

they had cameras and mics on the cheerleaders

they had cameras and mics on the cheerleaders

But were they using stalls or urinals at the time? And..where's the thread?

But were they using stalls or urinals at the time? And..where's the thread?

You might have ugly cheerleaders if they use urinals.

You might have ugly cheerleaders if they use urinals.

That's probably why the videotapes were destroyed.

I'm looking at the one above, where in the second segment he gets tripped (gets his feet grabbed) as he finishes slicing through the line, leading to him falling sideways into Losman. If he's trying to hit Losman with his elbow, he's diving forward with the forearm, not twisting to the side and falling like that. If you are falling on your side, you most certainly are trying to reach out with your arm and take the brunt on your side or on your forearm.

He was already falling forward, from what I saw. And then he twists his entire body to the side. Can anyone tell if he had a view of the leg? I think he was looking at it as he fell. His stomach hit the ground first. I would think that if he were trying to break his fall with his forearm, he would've lowered his arm a bit and take the fall on the shoulder/forearm, the way he was going down, he was eventually going to land on his elbow. It still looks intentional.

I'm not a physics major so I can't point out how you are supposed to fall. I dunno.

I'm not a physics major so I can't point out how you are supposed to fall. I dunno.

Any chance you're staying at a Holiday Inn Express?

He was already falling forward, from what I saw. And then he twists his entire body to the side.

Go to the 0:12 left stage of the video and watch for four seconds (until around 0:08). You see him charging through with both arms in front, and then someone from the Bills falling from the left with their hands out and hits the back of his feet. At that point Wilfork's entire movement changes. That's when he starts twisting and pulling his arms in, plus his head turns to face more to the sidelines. It's hard to see any evidence that he is looking forward at Losman's knee.

Any chance you're staying at a Holiday Inn Express?

:D Nice one.

In all honestly, outside of being a major Pats homer, I don't see how anyone can watch that video and claim he was bracing himself for a fall.

Look at the angle his elbow was at as he fell into Losman. There's no way he was simply bracing himself.

In all honestly, outside of being a major Pats homer, I don't see how anyone can watch that video and claim he was bracing himself for a fall.

Look at the angle his elbow was at as he fell into Losman. There's no way he was simply bracing himself.

I guess I'm a Pats homer then, since I can't see how anyone can watch that video and talk about the immense body control he has after being tripped up by someone falling on his ankles to aim that forearm so precisely...

It wasn't intentional.

Why would the Patriots be trying to injure JP Losman? If it was Peyton Manning or Ben Roethlisberger, sure, I could see calling this a dirty play, but as long as Losman is the starter in Buffalo, that's two wins a year.

Maybe they just think he's an asshole?

Bring back "apatheric lurker."

Maybe they just think he's an asshole?

That's two serious responses to what I thought was an obvious joke post.

That's two serious responses to what I thought was an obvious joke post.

Oh, sorry, my post was a joke also. Guess I'm not so funny after all.

Oh, sorry, my post was a joke also. Guess I'm not so funny after all.

No, you're the funniest funny-man on fofc. It's my fault.

I guess I'm a Pats homer then, since I can't see how anyone can watch that video and talk about the immense body control he has after being tripped up by someone falling on his ankles to aim that forearm so precisely...

+1

I guess I'm a Pats homer then, since I can't see how anyone can watch that video and talk about the immense body control he has after being tripped up by someone falling on his ankles to aim that forearm so precisely...

It wouldn't be any better (except for Losman's health) if he was "precise" or not. He could have just thrown the elbow out there hoping to hit something and got lucky. We're not syaing he has amazing body control while being tripped up, just that he was wrong for aiming the elbow in the first place.

Also, I'm a Canes homer more than a Pats hater so I'm not inclined to be out for this guy. Now if he was playing for the Jets, I'd gladly join in a discussion of how he probably molested puppies immediately after the play.

I just see Wilfork going more like "Wha?" as he's falling as opposed to "Awesome, an excuse to plant this elbow in Losman without getting penalized" based on how that transpires. When my wife steps on my heel while shepherding kids around, the only thought in my head is trying to stay on my feet and not fall on one of them...

disclaimer: I've been a Pats' fan since Parcells became their coach and have, with few exceptions, wanted them to win, so deal with it. :p

In all honestly, outside of being a major Pats homer, I don't see how anyone can watch that video and claim he was bracing himself for a fall.

Agreed. He's already falling forward when his ankles get hit and he's clearly looking at Losman's leg the entire time.

he's clearly looking at Losman's leg the entire time.

His helmet turns 90 degrees during that fall. How can he be looking at his leg the entire time?

I'm not usually the guy to turn to for seriousness, but here goes. I don't think it was intentional.

He could have just thrown the elbow out there hoping to hit something and got lucky. We're not syaing he has amazing body control while being tripped up, just that he was wrong for aiming the elbow in the first place.

This is my train of thought. He knew where Losman was, and regardless if he was falling sideways, forwards, or whatever, he stuck that elbow out there probably hoping to hit something and he did. That in itself was very questionable. And it's obviously clear that he wasn't trying to land on that specific elbow/forearm.

His helmet turns 90 degrees during that fall. How can he be looking at his leg the entire time?

He was looking straight at Losman for nearly the entire time. His helmet turned 90 degrees (along with his body) when he was inches away from Losman, and he stuck that elbow out.

This thread makes me want to eat my own head.

Perhaps I'm being naive here, but I can't imagine being tripped and then consciously thinking that I'm going to throw my elbow out to my side while falling in an attempt to hit something. People talk about how fast everything moves in the NFL, and I have a hard time believing that the guy was able to make such a quick decision as he's unexpectedly falling down. "Oh, let me throw an elbow out there!" I just don't see it. If it were his shoulder or helmet that hit Losman, I would be more inclined to believe that it were intentional. Who in the NFL hits with an elbow, though? With all the equipment these guys wear, a player is more likely to injure himself by consciously throwing out an elbow than he is to injure somebody else.

Dudes, go WATCH that bit at 12 seconds left. Seriously, his entire body motion changes as soon as the Bill lands on his ankles. That includes his head turning to the side IMMEDIATELY. That man is going "Oh sh..." Which is what I'd expect if I were running and someone stepped on my heels.

His helmet turns 90 degrees during that fall. How can he be looking at his leg the entire time?

Because it doesn't. On the second replay, you can see the red of the cage of the facemask during the fall, up until right before impact. At that angle, that would be pretty impossible unless he was looking at Losman's leg.

You're making it sound like his head turns with his shoulders. It doesn't. His shoulders turn and he keeps looking at the leg for as long as he can while falling, which is up until about the moment right before impact.

Maybe he's looking away just enough to not have Losman's leg in his field of vision (I played football so I know how much those helmets can restrict your field of vision). Maybe he is trying to stick out his forearm and brace his fall, I can't say for absolute certain. Only Wilfork knows what he was doing. Maybe if there were a 3rd angle it would change my perception, but I've watched those 2 angles more times than I can count, and from those, I see a guy falling forward, looking at a leg and sticking his elbow out.

I'd say the best evidence that this wasn't intentional is the fact that you can see a ref in the background at the end of the first replay facing what happened and he decided not to throw the flag.

I have a hard time believing that the guy was able to make such a quick decision as he's unexpectedly falling down.

I guess that's the divide here. I don't have a hard time believing this at all.

Not saying this is what he was doing or not, but we break falls with our forearms all the time in karate. Forward fall, side fall, backward fall, all the time I tell you...

FM

Forearm != Elbow

sigh, I can't argue with your unflappable logic sir, will not even try... :rolleyes:

FM

All I know is when I fall, I catch myself with my hands, not my elbows.

It looks to me like Wilfork intended to make a hit, maybe not directly at the knee, but at Losman. In the second angle, the Bills player doesn't even really mess with his fall until his helmet hits Wilfork's feet at about the :07 second mark. At that point, Wilfork was already beginning to extend the elbow to get a little lick in, but the guy falling on the back of his heels seemed to compound the problem. I don't think Wilfork was going for the knees, but ended up there when the dude fell on him. Either way, seems like a late hit, and a pretty obvious one at that - just not quite a kill shot.

Bring back "apatheric lurker."

:p




btw, vince is(was) a huge bills fan...if he did it on purpose maybe he wants the bills to NOT suck by playing someone else.....I admit to being a losman fanboy, but.......

I actually watched it for the first time, and it's really obvious that he sticks his entire forearm out when he sees losman's leg in front of him. Oh, well. Win at all costs, right?

.....I admit to being a losman fanboy, but.......


http://www.othercinema.com/otherzine/otherzine09/images/gijoe_meemee.jpg

see i'm going to disagree with it being a cheapsht. Vince was going in standing up until the guy blocking him grabbed him by the legs and knocked him over. He put his arm out out of instinct to break his fall.

IMO he wasn't trying to injure Losman

http://www.othercinema.com/otherzine/otherzine09/images/gijoe_meemee.jpg

my soup strainer is way more sexy

I don't know what any of you are looking at. Vince is going in and is diving to hit Losman. He's aiming about stomach high leading with his arm (trying to get there before the throw) as you would expect. At the last second, he is hindered by the Bills' player, preventing his full dive - as a result he ends up hitting him lower with more of the elbow because he gets twisted. So, it's not an intentional cheap shot. Almost as much attention as the Zapruder film.

why does he move his arm out right before it crushes losman's knee?

I don't think anyone is arguing that it shouldn't have been a holding penalty or that wilfork intentionally dove at him. the point is that he could have fallen on his side without incident, but that as he was falling he suddenly decides to stick his right arm out to hit losman. I don't think he meant to injure him so badly, but it was clearly unnecessary.

If Losman would have just got out of the way he would be fine.

Look at it this way. Wilfork did the Bills a favor.

And here comes the fine:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2007/09/wilfork_fined.html

12,500 seems about right, that's what they fined Keisel for this preseason when he went too low on Jason Campbell.