I think it is easy to look at the old Sideline days and talk of the "Golden Age" of this board. Several "Old-Timers" have gone since then and several who remain have expressed longing for the "good ol' days." I usually think such talk is nonsense and usually is just part of everyone believing the time they thought something was "new" made it more special. However, I've taken a trip on the Way Back Machine and the more I look at the ol' days, the more I realize some of the things that have been lost.

Most importantly, I think a sense of "discussions" and "contributions" seems to have disappeared. That is, people write to the board on a thread just because they have something to say, not because it contributes to the discussion. Looking at old political, philosophical, game-related, movie, and esoteric threads, I found a sense that people felt they were contributing to something. They recognized that the "board" mattered and just saying something for the sake of talking was crazy. This isn't to say a Tobias or Wig entry didn't occasionally enter into the fray, but even then such posts were rarely designed to hi-jack a thread.

Nowadays, I look at the board and I see thread after thread of mindless attacks, arguments without any substance, polls with no meaning, and subjects with no purpose (i.e. thread-kill). Often people write just to put in "their 2 cents" when it really isn't even worth a penny. There seems to be a declining sense of importance in what one posts. Saying something has become equivalent to saying something important.

I don't mean to be overly critical - if I didn't care about the board, I wouldn't be posting this. Yet, I think a change in ethic would do this board good. The celebration of high post counts and cheapshots seems to have eliminated actual "discussion" and I think people here can change that. Here are my suggestions for an improved board:

1) Treat each thread as a discussion and decide if your post would contribute to that discussion.

2) Dola's should be treated as an embarassment yet again. The era of smirking at them should end.

3) Attempt to engage other people in arguments - don't just disagree for the sake of expressing your opinion.

4) Realize that some of the best threads come about when people aren't supporting an agenda, but rather when everyone in it is just adding to the whole. The thread may not go where anyone intended, but at least it won't turn into petty squabling.

5) Recognize that post counts mean nothing (with the exception of QS - whose post count is truly astounding given the effort he puts into most of his writings on this board).

I don't know if this will ring true with those reading this, but at least think hard about it before you reply. I'd like to think the quality of discourse could be raised above what it is now.

Thanks for reading.

I think my point on the threadkill thread is mentioned in here again.

This board seems to have a problem sometimes of beating a dead horse.

Originally posted by heybrad
I think my point on the threadkill thread is mentioned in here again.

This board seems to have a problem sometimes of beating a dead horse.

Like the fact that the next ten posts will inlude, if not only be, hey brad.

Originally posted by The Afoci
Like the fact that the next ten posts will inlude, if not only be, hey brad.
I tried to get people to cut down on that.

I think the board is doing fine.

Originally posted by Kodos
I think the board is doing fine.
ditto

Tarkus

John Galt - only seeing what he wants to see, again. ;)

Back in the Sideline days, there were plenty of posts/threads of mindless attacks, arguments without any substance, polls with no meaning, and subjects with no purpose, etc. Just see the ones with dolamite in them. :)

I agree that the board is doing fine. In fact I think the best part about it is that it isn't just about FOF or serious stuff. If you don't like the Thread Killer thread, ignore it, it isn't tough.

Thanks for reading.

Actually, I didn't...the post was too long but I'm sure it was very insightful.

Is it too late to say "hey Brad"? I'm too lazy to look it up under the heybrad guide to board etiquette.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Bee
Is it too late to say "hey Brad"? I'm too lazy to look it up under the heybrad guide to board etiquette.
No reason to get snippy. The heybrad etiquette was posted partly in jest and partly because it gets old to see every single post I type get replied with "hey brad". I'll tell you what. I'll follow you around from now on and post "Buzz Buzz" everytime I see a post from Bee. Trust me, it will get old, but I guess I'll boost my post count and thats what its all about.

buzz brad.

Sorry heybrad, didn't mean to come off snippy. My post was meant purely as satire (which often doesn't come across very well online :D).

Buzz Buzz :D

I'm guessing the turn this thread has taken will piss off John Galt.

With how much I post, you'll get a workout. ;)

I too think this board is fine. Everything evolves, but I still think this is one of the best message boards on the internet.

I've seen FOFC members meet other FOFC members in real life. I myself ran into an old acquaintance here that I'd lost touch with in real life. I've seen people discuss legal questions, work questions, relationship questions, health questions, computer questions, restaurant suggestions, vasectomy questions, Terrell Owens questions, music questions, questions about child-rearing, gynecological questions (of all things)...

not too mention all the enjoyable contests and puzzles that keep so many of us entertained.

and this is all in the last month or so.

what's wrong with our community again?

I think this thread is asinine

I know I have a gajillion posts, but I for one don't give a rat's ass about my number of posts. Once in a while I'll stop to make fun of my ridiculous post count, but other than that, who cares. Turn them off for all I care.

Yours,
The FOFC Bronze Medalist Poster ;)

There's a certain quote form the QotM list I feel like stealing right now ....

Originally posted by John Galt


1) Treat each thread as a discussion and decide if your post would contribute to that discussion.


Every post, even smart ass remarks meant for a laugh, are "part of the discussion." It may not meet your idea of what you think the discussion should be, but that is just your opinion.


2) Dola's should be treated as an embarassment yet again. The era of smirking at them should end.


If something is funny, it is funny. If it isn't it isn't. Dola or not. Humor good.


3) Attempt to engage other people in arguments - don't just disagree for the sake of expressing your opinion.


Isn't disagreeing and expressing your opinion on the topic of discussion engaging in the discussion? Why is that inferior to point-counter point? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


4) Realize that some of the best threads come about when people aren't supporting an agenda, but rather when everyone in it is just adding to the whole. The thread may not go where anyone intended, but at least it won't turn into petty squabling.


Okay, I realize that. I don't think there is anything wrong with people getting heated during argument. If it becomes personal it crosses the line, IMO. Whenever this happens I take myself out of the conversation and, if need be, settle it privately. I agree with this point.


5) Recognize that post counts mean nothing (with the exception of QS - whose post count is truly astounding given the effort he puts into most of his writings on this board).


Post counts don't mean anything to me and I would be surprised if there are very many people who spend a whole lot of time worrying about it.

I realize that it is not your intention, but with posts like these you come off as very stuffy and condescending. I know that all you are trying to do is improve the board, but the board belongs to everyone. If it is not up to your satisfaction you certainly have the right to express that, but your choice of method and selection of words does you no favors. You are more likely to make people angry and turn people off than change the board to your liking.

im with kodos the board is doing quite well. no major trolling as of late either which has been a pleasant change

The board's fine.

I like how the board is at the moment.

I also think the board is fine. One of the best things about it is that we have our own language, so that when someone throws out a Dola here, a Mr. Nibbles there, an asshat everywhere (sorry, I just got through singing Old MacDonald with the Kid and it hasn't quite worn off yet), it adds a whole new level to the conversation. That might annoy some, and if it's overused it can wear thin, but I enjoy my time here.

Of course, I might be part of the problem, so what do I know?

Originally posted by John Galt
Often people write just to put in "their 2 cents" when it really isn't even worth a penny.


If that.......

The board is funny, so I like it.

I think we also have some very serious questions and some good thought on this board.

And yes, the old Sideline board had its fair share of these posts.

The FOFC Bronze Medalist Poster

I don't think so. Check your math, Bucc+Anysomething.

I will say that the "hey Brad" thing always bugs me. You will post a good reply, and the thread is thread jacked by 10 "hey Brads"

psssh this board is fine

Hey stkelly52

Not to nitpick, but I've been around since Day 1 (or 2 or 3) - the old Sideline days. FOF was still new and there was a lot of discussion about the game itself. But the newer games just built off the old - there's not that much new anymore. Plus, when just a couple of hundred of us had FOF, we all felt like we were "in" on a secret game. That feeling has been gone for quite a while.

However, when I took over as Mod of the Sideline, it was a horrendous place. Lots of flaming, profanity and general nastyness. We've been through ups and downs since then, but I think we're doing pretty well today. The group has changed over many times, but we still have a pretty decent level of conversation. It's migrated away from the game, but that's to be expected. Skydog and Ryan have done a helluva job in keeping the noise level to a low roar.

All in all, I think the board is doing exceptionally well. Maybe this IS another "golden age". :)

Without Hell Atlantic and Jason Tobias here on a daily basis, can this place ever have a golden age again.

Dean Houston slapped a kid.

Anrhydeddu
Resident Curmudgeon


When did this happen? That title fit HA, but Bucc/Arny? I don't think so. JMHO.

Originally posted by Blackadar
However, when I took over as Mod of the Sideline, it was a horrendous place. Lots of flaming, profanity and general nastyness.

This is probably where someone should chime in and say that John Galt did not know what he was talking about in the first post and then I would reply saying, did he ever? :D :p

I think I should be Resident Soccer Advocate

Originally posted by dacman
Anrhydeddu
Resident Curmudgeon


When did this happen? That title fit HA, but Bucc/Arny? I don't think so. JMHO.

HA has become too one dimensional, imo. On the other hand, I have learned to diversify and become cranky about everything, from FOF to music bands to NFL QBs to whatever the hype and flavor of the month is. But I do give respect to HA for being the best at what he does. :)

A well-intended post, but destined to meet this fate.

I really don't think that the visible post counts add much to the forum. On the old Sideline site, you could see someone's, but only if you clicked their profile page. Now that they are out in the open, I think it does promote a little more attention than they merit.

But I don't think it's time to worry about the health of the board. It's just different... that's all. Not inherently better or worse than before, just different. There are plenty of people here now who weren't here in 2000 who are very valuable contributors to the current community. I think part of the nostalgia comes from inevitable selective memories, myself included.

Hey, this site isn't going to be perfect for anyone. There's plenty here that I don't get much out of, and I've pretty much dropped out of the so-called political stuff completely (after once getting into that a good deal). There is less "game analysis" here than before, but that's perhaps more supply-and-demand than a reflection on the community itself.

The "good old days" may be gone, but there can be plenty of "good new days" yet to come. There's an awful lot here that remains worthwhile, I think.

My ratio of total posts to substance-filled, high-importance posts is probably near the bottom of the barrel. Anyone want to go through all 3300+ of them and pick out the good ones so my meaningful post count can be properly calculated? Thanks.

Crappie, I looked, and couldn't find a one...

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I don't think so. Check your math, Bucc+Anysomething.

:(

I guess I really do care now. It was easier to adopt an "I don't care" attitude when I was a big medalist...

Isn't it great how everything from the past looks perfect? Just like the 50s. They were really great. Unless you were black. Or an unwed mother. Or in Korea. Or hunted by McCarthey. Or scared by duck and cover drills. Etc etc etc

Originally posted by JPhillips
Isn't it great how everything from the past looks perfect? Just like the 50s. They were really great. Unless you were black. Or an unwed mother. Or in Korea. Or hunted by McCarthey. Or scared by duck and cover drills. Etc etc etc

JPhillips hit it on the head I think. The past almost always seems better than the present. Must be human nature I guess.

Interestingly enough, when I first joined this board, way back in March of 2001, there was a very similar thread that spoke of the "good old days" and "why are we fighting all the time" et cetera, et cetera.

In one of my very first posts, I commented on how 95% of the posts/threads were just fine, and how this was perhaps the best online community I have ever been a part of.

Two years later...and I still feel the same way.

I've seen people get help with jobs, vacation tips, relationship tips (not just HA's rantings), good in depth sports analyses, stupid jokes, political discussions of all kinds and more. I traveled with my Mom a few weeks ago and I was telling her a bit about this board and she was quite impressed. She is part of a home crafters message board and it sounds like we are more civil and have better discussions then they do.

Sorry for the rambling post. This thread just brought back memories of the good old days. Then and now.

Just my two cents.

Originally posted by Kodos
Crappie, I looked, and couldn't find a one...

You alien-type folk sure read fast.

Let's also not forget that this is February, generally considered to be the slowest month of the year in terms of sports. Irrelevant yada yada tends to run rampant in February at FOFC, every year.

Also, with the upcoming games (CM4, OOTP5) the discussions will pretty soon turn on-topic again (and I consider ALL sport sims as on-topic).

Rule 1) We have to be substantial.
Rule 2) We can't gay bash


any more I am missing?

3) You must pay due homage to all moderators, past and present :)

d'oh, thanks for the save.

Well, I registed not long after you did and have been a lurker myself. The only difference I notice comparing today to my first day here is that FOF doesn't spark many conversations now. FOF4 came out recently but it was essentially the same game with some new features added, not enough to generate many new topics. This board is still great for the primary reason I've kept reading it, it's an unofficial grouping of sports sims fans. Sometimes I don't read this place for months but I always come back because it's the best place on the internet to get caught up with sports sims and other text-based games, especially since most titles have very little press or advertising.

Much along the same line as what Splitpersonality said. After always hearing me talk about my message board, my wife tried to joing a message board, but she has not be able to find one that even comes close to FOFC. She says that this is they type of board that she would like, even though she doesn't know squat about football.

John Galt takes stuff fairly seriously I guess...

Just enjoy the board for what it is and engage in disucssions YOU want to rather than try and save us all from ourselves...

Originally posted by stkelly52
Much along the same line as what Splitpersonality said. After always hearing me talk about my message board, my wife tried to joing a message board, but she has not be able to find one that even comes close to FOFC. She says that this is they type of board that she would like, even though she doesn't know squat about football.
Women can still join this board right? I think we got rid of the quota system when the government started its move against affirmative action. :p

Tarkus

Thanks for the many replies. Let me offer these thoughts:

1) I normally have no illusions about "the good ol' days." Typically, I think such talk is ridiculous and made by people who don't want things to change or evolve. I am not one of those people. My post was more triggered by looking at the old forum via the Way Back Machine and noticing a difference. While I wouldn't want things to be like they were, I think a couple important things have been lost.

2) My post was not meant to encourage that the board be "serious" and stuffy. Rather, it was a call to increase the quality and focus of posts. On boards like those at .400, good posts often get lost in the fanboy noise. On this board, we thankfully lack fanboys, but sometimes other "noise" makes it hard to find a thread readable or interesting. Jokes good, serious discussion good, posts for the sake of posting bad.

3) I don't think my vision of the board is "right" or "correct." Rather, I am attempting to engage in a discussion of what makes the board worthwhile. I think it is too easy to say things are "fine." I think for the most part things are alright, but that doesn't mean they can't be better. My ideas were triggered by a trip down memory lane on the web, but they were also caused by a belief that this board could take the good of what it has and improve upon it.

4) My post was not an attack on the board or its members. It was not meant to be condescending (although I seem to have a problem broadcasting my tone on the Web). I write because I think this board is a nice place, but one that good be even better.

5) For those who think the good 'ol days were just as crazy, I don't deny the Dolamite and nonsense fights of old. All that I'm saying is lots of the concentration of "throwaway" threads seemed to be significantly less in my review of the old board. Threads also tended to be much more readable because not everyone was chiming in with redundant statements of opinion.

I know my vision of this board may be different than some, but I ask that you at least think about my ideas when you are reading a thread that is on "the road to nowhere."

Thanks again for reading.

I get nervous when people start calling for a higher level of discussion, because often they only consider voices that agree with their views to be "high level".

Sure, the board has it's rough edges. There are too many polls for the sake of polls, but that's probably just a novelty effect of the new software. The post count thing is kind of silly, and some of the "hey brad" stuff and folks posting the same thing in every thread is getting old, and the threadkill is a clever joke that's been beaten into the ground (I imagine the people posting in it are probably the same types who still greet people with "Whasssup").

But overall, the forum is fine. Still worth a visit or two every day, and that's more than can be said for most forums.

For my two bits, I too think the Forum is in good shape. In my time lurking and being a member, there has been some really rough water, but you're going to get that with any gathering of individuals - particularly in a medium such as the internet.

On the other hand, I think I do see something of what John Galt is saying. I have been frustrated on several occasions when a thread that is intended as a serious or somewhat deeper discussion devolves into one-line, vanilla responses or playful banter. Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of this as much as anybody, but it does happen a lot and it can be frustrating.

I dunno, perhaps we could mark the more "serious" threads with a tag (similar to "OT") that would encourage more of what we're looking for.

Originally posted by John Galt
.....That is, people write to the board on a thread just because they have something to say, not because it contributes to the discussion.

Nowadays, I look at the board and I see thread after thread of mindless attacks, arguments without any substance, polls with no meaning, and subjects with no purpose (i.e. thread-kill). Often people write just to put in "their 2 cents" when it really isn't even worth a penny. There seems to be a declining sense of importance in what one posts. Saying something has become equivalent to saying something important.


The above snippet pisses me off immensely.

Who are you to decide what "contributes to the discussion"? Who are you to decide what constitutes a "mindless attack"? Who are you to say that an argument is "without substance"? Who are you to say that something has "no meaning" or "no purpose"? Who appointed you as the judge who can say things such as "Saying something has become equivalent to saying something important" without feeling a little dirty? Are you the person who decides what is important?

I'm not trying to be rude, but I get the imppression that you feel the need to control your environment. You like to decide what is right and wrong for everyone. You like everyone to understand and quietly accept your agenda, but you don't want to listen to the opposing view without labeling it as pointless, mindless, or without value.

I love FOFC and the people that populate it for what they are, not for what I want them to be. If you can't do that as well, why do you even waste your time here?

Originally posted by Tarkus
Women can still join this board right? I think we got rid of the quota system when the government started its move against affirmative action. :p

Tarkus
I have no problem with women coming in here. I just don't want that particular woman coming here. This is my board and she can't have it :)

I wonder if the difference between the old board and it's current incarnation could have something to do with the increased membership?

I think the question of whether the board is worse off is interesting, but really what can anyone do to 'improve' it? The suggestions John Galt made are interesting but ultimately unactionable.

There's always going to be people who want to post serious topics, humorous topics, meaningless polls, and yes even the dreaded Threadkiller. The only way to 'control' these would be to have a consensus vote (or dictatorial rule) of what is 'appropriate'. Even then, the only method of control is to either flame the poster or kick him out ... actions hardly likely to improve the camaraderie or even quality (but sure to increase the number of lurkers).

Bottom line is that I think we should just enjoy the board for what it is ... and if we don't like it, we'll move on. The board will continue to evolve over time as the membership turns over. But as long as a core group of key members continue to post here (names withheld to protect the egos), I am confident that it will remain as a community/ board well worth visiting.

My ears are burning.

-

Let me let loose once. In the beginning this place was cool. Because I was having fun. Here. I played the game and came here to see who was like me. Infatuated with simulation, especially statistics and there abstract representation of an alternate reality. Something I felt embodied my desires. Allowed me to pursue yet another of the forbidden fruits. A god like power so incredible it allowed me to create an entire social climate, all in my imagination, based solely on the numbers put up by my personal tweaking of variables, a lie I respected as an all seeing eye.

I graduated and came back to the reunion only to see the same guys doing the same thing. I am glad the real hard core cats realized the truth. The game is only as important as you want it to be. It isnt important to me anymore, yet i feel attracted at times to be around my 'peers' even if I'm considered an outcast or a freak. Mostly I wait for the opportunity to trash my old arch nemesis. Still waiting.

Freak :p

I think he's trying to tell us he's gay :)

Originally posted by stkelly52
I have no problem with women coming in here. I just don't want that particular woman coming here. This is my board and she can't have it :)
Okay, I can understand that. ;)

Tarkus

Everyones winking. I'm thinking EVERYONE is gay.

Originally posted by Schmidty
I'm not trying to be rude, but I get the imppression that you feel the need to control your environment. You like to decide what is right and wrong for everyone. You like everyone to understand and quietly accept your agenda, but you don't want to listen to the opposing view without labeling it as pointless, mindless, or without value.

I love FOFC and the people that populate it for what they are, not for what I want them to be. If you can't do that as well, why do you even waste your time here?

"Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

Quik spoke for me to a large degree ... a well-intended post with an inevitable conclusion. Probably due in equal parts to the message and the messanger.

I used to believe that FOFC had a "golden age." Now, I'm not so sure. I do still see a lot of great discussions, and I agree that we at the time appear to be more troll-free than we have been in a while.

However, there are still some kernels of truth in what John said. There is NO doubt that there are people who are taken with their post counts -- just like money, the moment you say it isn't about the post count, it is about the post count. Like QS said, it wasn't really an issue when the post count wasn't so prevalent. But that "technology" and other "developments" like it (i.e. polling) has driven "because we can" topics rather than "because we should" topics.

To a certain degree, there is a lack of "freshness" around here. Kodos comes up with a creative use of the poll (for once!;)), and you could set your watch for when imitators with a different theme would be riffing off it. "Heybrad" is another classic example. It's like Ray Jay Johnson on The Simpsons -- "that was funny for about 5 seconds". After the millionth time you see it, it loses all meaning.

There is still a great deal of meaningful discussion here. But there is also more trash than ever before. I read far fewer threads than I used to because more and more simply do not appeal to me. Others would look at that as wonderous diversity. Maybe it is. I would probably appreciate FOFC today more if liked soccer. :)

I love this board. If FOFC was a woman, I'd pull a revrew and make 8 babies out of it.

and there folks, is your new QOTM

Wait.. i got a quote.

'Corndog in the pee hole.'

Which end first?

Male or female?

So many questions.

Is this why this place isn't as 'Cool' as it should be? Assholes like me who just want to see there names and hope to be the center of attention?

Thats not me.