At what point in a tournament do you guys start loosening up your requirements for calling a raise?

At the final table, there is usually some blind stealing going on, and others are loosening up their requirements for actually raising. So where do you draw the line with calling raises with hands like ATs or AJ etc..?

Obviously it's dependent on a lot of factors, but I'm just trying to get some ideas to improve this part of my game.

If you are asking this question I'm assuming that you haven't read harrington on hold'em vol. II. He has a system called M which basically is how many orbits can you play if you just folded. When you get below 20 you have to change your game. When you drop below 10 you alter it again. It is all layed out there. I know I have been pushing this book for some time now but if you play MTTs and you haven't read this book you are costing yourself money plain and simple.

I've read it, but I struggle with pushing with marginal hands (when my M is low) to steals blinds.

If I don't have an Ace, or a pair, I am always afraid someone is going to call me with one of those hands. So instead, I just sit and wait for one of those hands. He advocates pushing with hands like QTo, T7o, even 87o etc. when you get the first-in vigorish.

If my M is really desperate, I still try to wait for a decent hand before pushing (any Ace, any pair, KQ-K8, QJ-Q8, JT-J8, T9). Am I being way too picky here?

I've managed to stay in the positive net balance with this strategy, but I've also finished on the bubble many times. I guess the place I could really start to use his ideas is when there are 5 players left, 4 get paid, and I am that low stack who everyone is waiting to inevitably get knocked out. That is where I could really benefit from stealing the blinds, and move up a place or two.

I've read it, but I struggle with pushing with marginal hands (when my M is low) to steals blinds.

If I don't have an Ace, or a pair, I am always afraid someone is going to call me with one of those hands. So instead, I just sit and wait for one of those hands. He advocates pushing with hands like QTo, T7o, even 87o etc. when you get the first-in vigorish.
With 1st in vig many many hands are pushable when you M is low. Sitting and waiting for Ax or a pair is -EV. It is frusterating (and a little embarrassing) to go out with QTo when the big blind wakes up with KK but that is poker. He has a great hand analysis running the numbers with a pretty weak hand (maybe T7o) and shows just how +EV pushing is in that case. You certainly don't have to play like that but you are losing EV if you don't.

If my M is really desperate, I still try to wait for a decent hand before pushing (any Ace, any pair, KQ-K8, QJ-Q8, JT-J8, T9). Am I being way too picky here?

If you mean really desperate as like M=3 and it has been folded to you in the cutoff say than this list is way, way, way, to picky.

I've managed to stay in the positive net balance with this strategy, but I've also finished on the bubble many times. I guess the place I could really start to use his ideas is when there are 5 players left, 4 get paid, and I am that low stack who everyone is waiting to inevitably get knocked out. That is where I could really benefit from stealing the blinds, and move up a place or two.

In HoH III he has some great stuff about calling an allin when you are on the bubble in a sit'n'go. It turns out you should be really tight when calling because that jump from winning nothing to 20% for 3rd place is huge. If someone is short then stealing blinds with first in vig is good but calling big bets from players with large stacks is bad. Again, I am not a great or even good NL player this is just stuff that Harrington recommends and has the numbers to back up.

You also have to keep some things in mind that when you call with a Q/T and someone wakes up with K/K, you are still going to suckout a some of the time. Even a hand like 7/8s against an overpair is going to come out on top some of the time.

When your M starts to fade, you have to push while you still have a chance to draw fear into someone. What's the point of letting your M go down to 2 or 3, getting your dream hand (A/A), doubling up and still being the short stack? If you let your M get to low, you understand that no matter what hand you have, there is a good shot you'll lose. Two, sometimes three other players will call your all in and check the hand down to the river. It's more important for them to get you the hell out than to get a few more chips.

Your best bet is to fire away and hope you steal the blinds or get lucky with the showdown.

If my M is really desperate, I still try to wait for a decent hand before pushing (any Ace, any pair, KQ-K8, QJ-Q8, JT-J8, T9). Am I being way too picky here?

I've managed to stay in the positive net balance with this strategy, but I've also finished on the bubble many times. I guess the place I could really start to use his ideas is when there are 5 players left, 4 get paid, and I am that low stack who everyone is waiting to inevitably get knocked out. That is where I could really benefit from stealing the blinds, and move up a place or two.

When you get down the the bubble, you need to be uber aggressive. You need to steal with any two cards. You can be picky when calling a bet, but when it comes to pushing, you need to act This is especially true if you are the smallest stack. 4 people left, 3 get paid and I'm the small stack, I'm going to push with virtually any hand if I'm first to act. I may throw away a 2/5 or the bottom 15% or so of all hands, but I'm going in with any T or above, any suited connecter, any two suited cards. . . I'm not going to wait until I hit the blinds and get my stack cut and my M goes even lower. I'm going to use the fact that all three other guys think they are in the money and are going to play it safe to my full advantage.

From my brief experience (nowhere near the amount of tournies Primelord and Dixie have played), I'm going to get those blinds a high percentage of the time. My M gets down to 2 or 3? I'm dead. Even a double up doesn't get me back in it, it only delays the inevitable.

I've managed to stay in the positive net balance with this strategy, but I've also finished on the bubble many times. I guess the place I could really start to use his ideas is when there are 5 players left, 4 get paid, and I am that low stack who everyone is waiting to inevitably get knocked out. That is where I could really benefit from stealing the blinds, and move up a place or two.

As long as no one has raised in front of you, you want to move allin every time when the next smallest stack has the big blind. This is why you don't ever want to be too short. If you can't pick on the next smallest stack, find whoever is most prone to folding their blinds, and pick on them instead.

Mildly related, but perhaps the most entertaining thing in tourneys for me is when I'm relentlessly stealing someone's blinds and they finally decide to fight back and move in, only for their hand to be dominated. :D Good times.

Anyway I hope this helps.

Edit: Once M < 3, you'll usually want to wait for the BB, then go allin blind outside of the top 20-25% of hands.

You also have to keep some things in mind that when you call with a Q/T and someone wakes up with K/K, you are still going to suckout a some of the time. Even a hand like 7/8s against an overpair is going to come out on top some of the time.

When your M starts to fade, you have to push while you still have a chance to draw fear into someone. What's the point of letting your M go down to 2 or 3, getting your dream hand (A/A), doubling up and still being the short stack? If you let your M get to low, you understand that no matter what hand you have, there is a good shot you'll lose. Two, sometimes three other players will call your all in and check the hand down to the river. It's more important for them to get you the hell out than to get a few more chips.

Your best bet is to fire away and hope you steal the blinds or get lucky with the showdown.
This is something I think that can be a real hard thing to get over mentally. It's hard when you're actually playing to realize you're better off with QTo against KK than with QQ. HOH is terrific stuff and I wish I could do a better job of internalizing it's many valuable lessons.

This is something I think that can be a real hard thing to get over mentally. It's hard when you're actually playing to realize you're better off with QTo against KK than with QQ. HOH is terrific stuff and I wish I could do a better job of internalizing it's many valuable lessons.

I'm kind of like this. I'm a pretty good poker player when I'm not playing poker. It's getting over the that mental hurdle when you're in the moment. It's one thing to know what you're supposed to do in a hypothetical situation, it's another to actually pull the trigger when your tournament life is on the line. Sometimes I still catch myself doing something I know is wrong but I just can't seem to stop myself. I'll get there eventually.

I'm kind of like this. I'm a pretty good poker player when I'm not playing poker. It's getting over the that mental hurdle when you're in the moment. It's one thing to know what you're supposed to do in a hypothetical situation, it's another to actually pull the trigger when your tournament life is on the line. Sometimes I still catch myself doing something I know is wrong but I just can't seem to stop myself. I'll get there eventually.

I'm not sure how I'd do in a live setting now. The showdowns get me nervous and every big hand, my heart races at 3,000 MPH. Every S&G, at the end, is a roller coaster for me. But I'm smart with my bankroll, I know what I can and can't afford to lose. I know when to walk away.

I also know that my best chance in any tournament is to be aggressive. In a 180 player MTT (low level, $4) last week, I had one of the scariest hands I've had in awhile. I was in the BB in the first hand at the final table with A/Ko. Everyone folded to the SB, who put in a 2x raise. My initial thought was A/x.

I doubled her raise, she called. Flop comes down 6/2/Q rainbow. She goes all in. (we were about dead even in stack size, this would have left me with about 200 chips) Do I trust my read? Did she have the 2 or the 6? I thought about it for a good twenty seconds and decided that if I wasn't going to have the guts to trust my reads and play the hands, I shouldn't be playing poker.

I called. She flipped over A/8. I held up, won the hand and ended up taking 5th in the tournament after a horrific mistake.

Just because I won doesn't mean it was the right move. I'm sure some here would laugh at the idiocy of making a move like that. But at the end of the day, I was thrilled. Three months ago I would have sissied out, not trusted my read, and still made the horrific mistake I made later. Actually, I wouldn't have, because I wouldn't have even been at the table. I'd have been bounced in the middle of the tourney because of my passive play.

I'm not bragging here, it's just that reading sabotai and Barkeep, it reminds me of how I used to play. I'm not a great player now and not even sure if I could be claissified as good yet. But I know enough about my game and about the guys who have pounded me that you need to be fearless at the table, especially when you get to the middle/late stages of a tournament and your M starts to fall.

Don't worry though guys. Once you get the adrenalin up after a couple of big hands, you'll probably grow to like it. :)

Thanks for all the input guys.

I tried this tonight, and it worked out. 45 man tourney, and we move to the final table of 9 with me in last place. 1-7 get paid.

Seat 1: Saiko79 (5920 in chips)
Seat 2: Guyloul (13400 in chips)
Seat 3: jammo79 (8286 in chips)
Seat 4: unifo100 (4010 in chips)
Seat 5: houtbay (6110 in chips)
Seat 6: nefwbntw (10520 in chips)
Seat 7: Hero (1292 in chips)
Seat 8: leadfoot1000 (10465 in chips)
Seat 9: NFLpunk (7497 in chips)

First hand, I push with KQo, and steal the blinds and antes.
Third hand, I push with KQo again, and get a caller. He had KQo also and we split the pot.
Fifth hand, I push with K7s, and get one caller. He had ATo and I flopped a flush. I move up one spot, to 8/9.
I fold the next 7 hands, mostly because one guy in MP kept limping in front of me.
13th hand I push with K9o and steal the blinds. Now I am 6th of 9.
16th hand, I push with Q9o and get a caller. He had ATo, and I made two pair. Now I am in 4th of 8.
Two hands later, I get QQ and raise, and everyone folds. I move up to 3rd of 8.

After that, I was actually able to play without pushing, and I went on to finish 2nd.

Certainly you got lucky there (not horrible suckout lucky) but you stole the blinds there half the time and actually ran into more real hands than I would have suspected. Playing that way gives you a chance then it is up to the cards to act nicely. Congrats.

I don't know what tables you guys are playing on, but every time I'm in a SNG and am desperate for chips (say, an "M" of around 5 or so), guys are more than happy to call my QJ or KT or something with A6 or K9 and beat me. Happens over and over again. If you're actually running over the table this way, then I'd have to say you're running into some unusually passive tables more often than not.

I don't know what tables you guys are playing on, but every time I'm in a SNG and am desperate for chips (say, an "M" of around 5 or so), guys are more than happy to call my QJ or KT or something with A6 or K9 and beat me. Happens over and over again. If you're actually running over the table this way, then I'd have to say you're running into some unusually passive tables more often than not."

I don't know what tables you guys are playing on, but every time I'm in a SNG and am desperate for chips (say, an "M" of around 5 or so), guys are more than happy to call my QJ or KT or something with A6 or K9 and beat me. Happens over and over again. If you're actually running over the table this way, then I'd have to say you're running into some unusually passive tables more often than not.

Poker Stars, $6 tournies. Some $3 tournies. The occasional $15.

I'd have to go back through my hand histories in Poker Tracker, but as a guess I think I'm getting called under 25% of the time when I push.

There have been times I've had to alter my strategy or at least increase my starting holdings to push because there is a loose caller on the table who calls anything.

It's also dangerous when you have say 1,500 chips and the chip leader dominating the table has 5000+ chips.

But with 4 guys left, normal table, everyone between 1,300 and 4,000 chips. . . I'm getting called when I push rarely.

Raven that sounds an awful like a Kill Phil approach to playing. Nice to ehar that you got a good result.