Taken by a Russian tourist over there. Really some fascinating pictures...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755

Pics continue on page six.

COol stuff Jeebs. That place is... surreal.

Wow, those are some really good pictures

wow. those are really some interesting pictures. paint a really bleak picture of that place, worse than i could have imagined i guess

That was an insanely creepy collection of photos.

Frontline did an amazing piece on North Korea using Bristsh reporters.

North Korea is Orwells 1984

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/northkorea/thestory.html

Wow.

wow, nice find jeebs

Interesting stuff, good linkage.
Thanks.

Very neat.. thanks Jeebs!

See! Proof that communism works!

It's amazing how they can manage to oppress and subjugate a population of millions. You'd think at some point the word would get out and enough of them would rise up to overthrow the government at some point.

It's amazing how they can manage to oppress and subjugate a population of millions. You'd think at some point the word would get out and enough of them would rise up to overthrow the government at some point.

Fighting with sticks and rocks against an army with guns is not very effective.

Amazing! Great find JeeberD (elite member of the Dark Council).

Fighting with sticks and rocks against an army with guns is not very effective.

If there were an organized resistance in North Korea, you can bet your ass we'd find a way to get them the guns. We've done it before.

If there were an organized resistance in North Korea, you can bet your ass we'd find a way to get them the guns. We've done it before.

The interesting thing about North Korea is the apparent complete and total absence of resistence. Visitors say everyone seems content. They're taught that they live in the most advanced country on the planet, and they have no reason not to believe it.

As for why - I think geography's a big part of it. The one land border is small enough to be heavily guarded, so you don't have people sneaking in/out.

The country's always facinated me. So many weird stories about the failures of communism. Like that giant hotel they started building in the late 80s, which would be the tallest hotel in the world (complete with 7 revolving restaraunts) - if they ever finished it. It's been an empty concrete shell for 15 years.

There are actually a few "windows" where American tourists can now visit (still only as part of government sponsored tours, and still only with constant supervision). What a trip that would be.

Yeah, I get the border control thing. From the photos, they even have electric fences along the beach.

I just think it would be human nature to ask, "Umm... so, if we're so cool, why can't we leave and maybe see the rest of the world?"

And there's gotta be a way for us to get some capitalist propoganda in there... I mean, come on... we can put a man on the moon 40 years ago, but we can't give the North Koreans basic cable or something?

Tbh, the photos in themselves are fairly standard of that region (parts of Bangkok, Phnom Pen, Ho Chi Minh City & especially the northern (ex-communist) parts of Vietnam and much of Malaysia. Shanty towns are the basic means of life of a large proportion of people in the cities of these countries.

It's only the knowledge we have been given about the country that might make the photos look a strange scary place.

The electric fence around the beach is different though - their propaganda wouldn't be to stop the NKs leaving, but to stop others jealous of their tenchology and lifestyle trying to get in.

Great pictures.

One of these days that house of cards will collapse.

It will be fascinating to listen/read the interviews with the NK citizens and see their reaction once its opened up and they realized they've been 'unnecessarily' living a lie.

What I don't get are the soldiers. There are some soldiers who know better (ex. border guards? those that kidnap certain Japanese citizens to NK? Generals that travel outside?). Why hasn't one of them made that decision to take care of Kim ... even if it meant certain death to himself?

Jari. I've been to Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. You are right that those shanty towns/huts do still exist but alot of those pictures are of the big city(ies?) in NK.

There is no comparison between the cities ... the NK pictures do truly paint a strange and scary place.

Jari. I've been to Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. You are right that those shanty towns/huts do still exist but alot of those pictures are of the big city(ies?) in NK.

There is no comparison between the cities ... the NK pictures do truly paint a strange and scary place.

I too spent 6 months in SE Asia thre years ago.

Did you venture out of Bangkok city centre into the suburbs, or look out the windows on a train journey, or travel down Chao Phrao (Sp?) river. A LOT (I was going to say the majority, but I cannot back up that strong a claim while at work ;) ) of Thais in Bangkok live in places like that long shot of a single shanty town.

IMO it is not much different to what I saw other than the electric wire across the beach, which itself might only be that particular stretch of beach.

I don't doubt it is an Orwellian state, just IMHO the photos just show something that is very different to western civilisations, just not that different to other SE Asian countries, a point I stand by and won't be swayed from because I saw these things within my own eyes.

Similarly you are perfectly entitled to think that it was very different from what you did or didn't see :)

My mother-in-law is Vietnamese and she took two of her daughters back to Vietnam a few years ago. They moved freely around and took all the pictures they wanted, so it's not the same circumstances at all, but the only difference between their pictures and the NK pics is that nowhere in Vietnam are they building stuff to make it look like they are an advanced country. There are cities with tall buildings, but you've seen those pictures. The rest of it is villages and thatch huts with dirt floors, no plumbing, no thought to cleanliness for disease control, etc. It's third world, but beautiful all the same. I wish we could have gone.

I don't know if I could have eaten anything though. They cooked everything with the head still on it! That's my "civilized" life getting in the way..

Some of the most eerie pics to me were of the totally empty city streets. It looks post-apocalyptic.

Frontline did an amazing piece on North Korea using Bristsh reporters.

North Korea is Orwells 1984

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/northkorea/thestory.html

I've seen that, I think. Fascinating stuff.

It probably should be pointed out that the person taking the pictures and editorializing probably did have a slant and was trying to make a point. If you read ahead in the thread (starting around page 6) you see some different pictures from another tourist with a slightly different slant.

There are clearly pictures of the ocean with no fence for example, so it's not like the entire country is sealed in. Not saying that the place is a garden spot, as it's clearly not but I'm not sure the entire country is quite as desolate as the first set of pictures lead you to believe.

the thing that really stood out in the Frontline piece was the citizenry truly believes that they are the Super Power of the world. They have an entire monument to winning the Korean war.

They don't think about travelling the world to see what else is out there, because there upbringing doesn't lead to that kind of thought. They have no access to western or European literature or anything other then the government propaganda.

They showed a parade of when the "great Leader" died (Kim Jong-il's father) and the streets were packed and the people were crying as if it was someone in their own family - it was bizarre and something I have never seen before.

It probably should be pointed out that the person taking the pictures and editorializing probably did have a slant and was trying to make a point. If you read ahead in the thread (starting around page 6) you see some different pictures from another tourist with a slightly different slant.

There are clearly pictures of the ocean with no fence for example, so it's not like the entire country is sealed in. Not saying that the place is a garden spot, as it's clearly not but I'm not sure the entire country is quite as desolate as the first set of pictures lead you to believe.

no doubt - As I have gotten older I have come to understand their is no such thing as "unbiased." Everyone is biased, based upon their life experience.

While the North Korean lifestyle seems awful to us, I doubt many of them would be interested in coming to the states with all the crime, drug abuse, corruption and violence.

While we are appalled at their complete lack of freedom, I would imagine they would be equally appalled at many of the issues in the western world.

Of course my biased opinion is that freedom is always better.

That's what fascinates me... the absolute brainwashing of an entire nation.

I mean, you could say a certain degree of that goes on EVERYWHERE, but at least in free, democratic nations, the population has the option to read what they want. If I don't like the American media, I can get online and read the news from the BBC or Al Jazeera or whatever.

I saw a piece on CNN (Anderson Cooper) about where two guys were crossing the river in and out of Korea into China (I think). These two guys would sneak in and out stuff all the time across the river.

As for why - I think geography's a big part of it. The one land border is small enough to be heavily guarded, so you don't have people sneaking in/out.


Fyi, many North Koreans sneak out or are sold on the Chinese border - once they come back, they are usually put into slave camps. Really, if there's a cause the world can unite behind, it ought to be trying to do something (anything) about North Korea.

Tbh, the photos in themselves are fairly standard of that region (parts of Bangkok, Phnom Pen, Ho Chi Minh City & especially the northern (ex-communist) parts of Vietnam and much of Malaysia. Shanty towns are the basic means of life of a large proportion of people in the cities of these countries.

It's only the knowledge we have been given about the country that might make the photos look a strange scary place.

The electric fence around the beach is different though - their propaganda wouldn't be to stop the NKs leaving, but to stop others jealous of their tenchology and lifestyle trying to get in.

I'd extend this to Manila, and India as well. One of the most depressing sight in Delhi are skyscrapers, and shanty towns less than a mile away.

no doubt - As I have gotten older I have come to understand their is no such thing as "unbiased." Everyone is biased, based upon their life experience.

and that's what I find the most fascinating about it. I'm no conspiracy nut, but it really makes you think about how much of OUR perspective and life experiences are influenced by government propoganda and spin.

and that's what I find the most fascinating about it. I'm no conspiracy nut, but it really makes you think about how much of OUR perspective and life experiences are influenced by government propoganda and spin.

Like in the Czech Republic every man does two chicks at the same time regularly.

Morpheus needs to take a visit to North Korea.

I'd extend this to Manila, and India as well. One of the most depressing sight in Delhi are skyscrapers, and shanty towns less than a mile away.

Yep. I was in Manila for biz and can remember leaving the hotel, and within 2 minutes seeing people living in literal treehouses made of that green crap people put in the top of sheds and cheap greenhouses.

and that's what I find the most fascinating about it. I'm no conspiracy nut, but it really makes you think about how much of OUR perspective and life experiences are influenced by government propoganda and spin.
That's why everyone should travel internationally at least once in their lives... really changes the way you view a lot of things.

That's why everyone should travel internationally at least once in their lives... really changes the way you view a lot of things.

such as?

such as?

For one thing, you fall in love with the American road system after having no idea how good we have it.

I'm very confused about China's relationship with North Korea. Can anybody explain it to me?

For one thing, you fall in love with the American road system after having no idea how good we have it.

agree

DOLA, regarding the old style housing next to sky-scrapers:

A lot of times developing countries can't win... Over the last five years in preparation for the Olympics, Beijing had been tearing down the traditional style housing (Hu-tongs) and moving the residents into modern apartments/condos. There was a pretty sizable outcry from the West with claims that millions of people were unwillingly losing their homes.... so the Chinese government decided to spare a lot of the hu-tongs. What's funny is that most of the Chinese who live in the "spared" hu-tongs are pissed because they both lost the payout they were getting for moving and now don't get to move to more modern housing.

Basically those of us in rich, developed countries will be critical of them for keeping or tearing down the shanties.

For one thing, you fall in love with the American road system after having no idea how good we have it.

Not tue at all if you lived in Germany... :)

DOLA, regarding the old style housing next to sky-scrapers:

A lot of times developing countries can't win... Over the last five years in preparation for the Olympics, Beijing had been tearing down the traditional style housing (Hu-tongs) and moving the residents into modern apartments/condos. There was a pretty sizable outcry from the West with claims that millions of people were unwillingly losing their homes.... so the Chinese government decided to spare a lot of the hu-tongs. What's funny is that most of the Chinese who live in the "spared" hu-tongs are pissed because they both lost the payout they were getting for moving and now don't get to move to more modern housing.

Basically those of us in rich, developed countries will be critical of them for keeping or tearing down the shanties.

Dude, I'm Indian - I'm not criticizing from an "American" perspective, and I recognize some of the points you're making are valid. Just the income disparity, even in relative terms, often appears to be increasing.

Dude, I'm Indian - I'm not criticizing from an "American" perspective, and I recognize some of the points you're making are valid. Just the income disparity, even in relative terms, often appears to be increasing.
I wasn't addressing my comment to you or disagreeing with you, but merely making a general comment.

I'm very confused about China's relationship with North Korea. Can anybody explain it to me?


I have a very vague understanging something along the lines of China being a bit of a much older brother to NK.

But I would love some more detail from someone far more informed.

My entire knowledge of NK is pretty much summed up in that 20 mintue frontline piece, which is kind of pathetic, but on the other hand it probably puts me about 19 minutes ahead of the majority of Americans.

Is there a way I can download/watch a video of that piece? I read the article and I'm intrigued.

A friend of mine went to China for a week this month. From his descriptions, it's a scary place. Lots of crime and swindling from the "common" people.

Is there a way I can download/watch a video of that piece? I read the article and I'm intrigued.

A friend of mine went to China for a week this month. From his descriptions, it's a scary place. Lots of crime and swindling from the "common" people.

Again, not uncommon. Try going anywhere near places that the Rough Guide or Lonely Planet recommend anywhere in Asia - there will be a queue of people trying to rip you off ;)

Is there a way I can download/watch a video of that piece? I read the article and I'm intrigued.

A friend of mine went to China for a week this month. From his descriptions, it's a scary place. Lots of crime and swindling from the "common" people.

I tried to find one and post it, but I think it is too old.

Frontline tend to have more stuff on-line the Frontline World.

I will see if I can find it anywhere else

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/watch/

A great deal of frontline world is available, but this one unfortunaley isn't.

If you have never watched frontline and/or frontline world, you really should - some of the best there is on TV. There is a little bit of a left slant, it is PBS after all - but for the most part I find it informative and as fair as possible.

I like it because it takes the time to present facts, and tries to leave the conclusions up to the viewer, which of course is the opposite of most political stuff on TV, which tend to be heavy on the conclusions and short on the facts.

wow. those are really some interesting pictures. paint a really bleak picture of that place, worse than i could have imagined i guess

South Korea isn't much better. I lived in S. Korea for 11 years from 1994 to 2005 between working for the US Air Force and the State Department . South Korea is quite "bleak" in it's own way. It is much more modernized and urbanized yet the country has a auro of pessimism and mournfulness. My wife, who is south Korean, says it has to do with the country's history having been invaded over 900 times in the last 1000 years! On a similar note, most South Koreans don't see these type of photos of the North since the South government has tried to insulate it's people as well. So, argue that south Koreans are more clueless to what is going in North Korea than North Koreans are to the outside world. I think they know, but they have conveniently chose not to notice or care and actually have fought our efforts to help the North Korean refugees to be allowed to settle in the US. Blood is thicker than water, huh.:(

Tbh, the photos in themselves are fairly standard of that region (parts of Bangkok, Phnom Pen, Ho Chi Minh City & especially the northern (ex-communist) parts of Vietnam and much of Malaysia. Shanty towns are the basic means of life of a large proportion of people in the cities of these countries.

It's only the knowledge we have been given about the country that might make the photos look a strange scary place.

The electric fence around the beach is different though - their propaganda wouldn't be to stop the NKs leaving, but to stop others jealous of their tenchology and lifestyle trying to get in.
I don't see why people are so surprised. I guess if you've never been to anywhere except the US, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, or a handful of other places, you'd think the whole world is like here but it's not at all.

I went to Turkey in 1992 and Istanbul has thousands, if not a couple of million (total population is something like 12 million) of people living around the city in little lean-to's and squatter buildings. Old cars are everywhere, there are sometimes utility issues, and inflation is over 100%.

Sure, there isn't the high level of iconic imagery about the government, instead, it seems like you can't go two feet without hitting something historic, anywhere from the early 1900s to a thousand years old.

It's not because they were communist and a failed regime- yes, there's something to that, but some countries just aren't up to the modern standards of living that we enjoy and it has nothing to do with Communism.

SI

Thanks for supplying the link Jeebs, those pics were pretty awesome to see.