what you guys think of the 60 Minutes Interview with Canseco?

I split my time evenly not watching Canseco and not watching the Grammys. It was a good night of not watching TV all around.

I have a hard time understanding how two hulking guys like Canseco and McGwire (guys that didn't even like each other) got into a bathroom stall in the clubhouse during batting practice on the day of a game and shot each other up. Seems like something that would be better done outside of the stadium and in a little more privacy. Also, I can't believe that people would sit there in the clubhouse (where media is often rampant) with open vials of steroids lying around for the world to see. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

After watching the interview it seems obvious to me that Canseco is extremely jealous of the career McGwire had and upset that he is looked on as a legend while Canseco is a joke.

Seemed like Canseco kind of mumbled around a lot of the questions, I don't remember the exact wording so I won't quote him but it just seems like he isn't exactly telling the truth.

After watching the interview it seems obvious to me that Canseco is extremely jealous of the career McGwire had and upset that he is looked on as a legend while Canseco is a joke.

And the true irony, Jose's humiliation is totally self-inflicted.

Not saying Jose is telling the truth, but something is questionable when these guys aren't suing him for Slander(or Libel for the book). If someone was making all kinds of damaging statements about me that could affect my professional well being, I would want to do somethng to stop it. Im just wondering why IRod or any of the other named players havent filed suit, it could be possible that some ugly stuff might come out if they tried to.

I split my time evenly not watching Canseco and not watching the Grammys. It was a good night of not watching TV all around.
We took the 2 year old to see "Pooh's Heffalump Movie" (her first movie, she had a great time), then out to dinner, home to give her a bath and put her to bed, then watched the "NUMB3RS" episode from a week and a half ago on DirecTIVO. As you said, a great night not watching 60 Minutes or the Grammys http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I only saw a short segment of the interview (replayed on St. Louis Sports Final on local TV), but Canseco came across as a liar to me. Mike Wallace confronted him on the "injecting each other" comment right out of the book, and Canseco said something like, "Well, it was more like injecting ourselves together, I can't remember exactly, it was a long time ago, we might have injected each other once." He sounded like a kid trying to be evasive when his Dad caught him with a six-pack of beer.

Not saying Jose is telling the truth, but something is questionable when these guys aren't suing him for Slander(or Libel for the book). If someone was making all kinds of damaging statements about me that could affect my professional well being, I would want to do somethng to stop it. Im just wondering why IRod or any of the other named players havent filed suit, it could be possible that some ugly stuff might come out if they tried to.

They were talking about this on the radio the other day, and basically they were saying that the players being named might not want to sue because once they were put on the stand and were under oath they would be open to all sorts of questions, including who on their team they had seen use steroids...

Suing is really not worth it for those named. Defending themselves publically I can see, suing no.

I believe the guy for the most part even if he's not exactly Joe upstanding citizen.

damn, i was kinda interested in maybe picking up the book, but it jsut seems like he isn't being rather truthful here. i'm sure some of his story is the truth, but who wants to read a non-fiction book and try to determine what's real or not?

It doesn't matter to me what he says about injecting the other guys etc.

I just can't believe that no one has thought of this before. These guys became huge. Look at the HR numbers. Look at these guys...always hurt. Can't run. They look like idiots trying to steal a base.

I was turned off to baseball in the early '90's because of this. I laugh when we are in 2005 and baseball can't test and ban this stuff, and fans think these numbers are because guys like Bonds and Brett Boone work out so hard.

What are you going to sue Canseco for?

Seriously, the guy is broke. A lawsuit is expensive, and gets you nothing. Better to ignore him.

No doubt some of these guys were using the roids but I can't say that I think McGwire was on them as well. The guys was a power hitter from his first season on. Nothing he did was really out of the norm IMO. McGwire was upfront on with the andro and has always been an honest guy as far as I can tell. Canseco is just a wannabe looking for attention and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

No doubt some of these guys were using the roids but I can't say that I think McGwire was on them as well. The guys was a power hitter from his first season on. Nothing he did was really out of the norm IMO. McGwire was upfront on with the andro and has always been an honest guy as far as I can tell. Canseco is just a wannabe looking for attention and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't understand why people have the blinders on when it comes to McGwire and androstenedione. Yes, I know that andro was legal at the time, but chemically it's muscle-building effects and physical side-effects are similar to that of more well-known anabolic steroids. The East Germans used it extensively and it is banned by most other major sports. From what the FDA is saying now, it sounds like a pretty dangerous drug (and it looks like the FDA is finally cracking down on it). As I posted in another thread, the FDA take on andro:

(hxxp://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/androqa.html)

Q: What are the side effects of dietary supplements containing androstenedione?

A: Potential long-term adverse health consequences in men include testicular atrophy, impotence, and the development of female characteristics such as breast enlargement. Women who use these products may develop male characteristics such as male pattern baldness, deepening of the voice, increased facial hair, and enlargement of the clitoris, as well as abnormal menstrual cycle and abnormal bleeding, and blood clots. Women may also be at increased risk for breast cancer and endometrial cancer. Children and adolescents are at risk for androgenic and estrogenic effects as in adults, for early onset of puberty, and for premature cessation of growth, such that they will be short as adults.

I've always maintained that they could all confess or produce video clips of them shooting up and people would still not believe it.

It's unbelievable to me there's a shred of doubt in anyone's mind as to what has been going on.

I don't understand why people have the blinders on when it comes to McGwire and androstenedione. Yes, I know that andro was legal at the time, but chemically it's muscle-building effects and physical side-effects are similar to that of more well-known anabolic steroids. The East Germans used it extensively and it is banned by most other major sports. From what the FDA is saying now, it sounds like a pretty dangerous drug (and it looks like the FDA is finally cracking down on it). As I posted in another thread, the FDA take on andro:

(hxxp://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/androqa.html)

Q: What are the side effects of dietary supplements containing androstenedione?

A: Potential long-term adverse health consequences in men include testicular atrophy, impotence, and the development of female characteristics such as breast enlargement. Women who use these products may develop male characteristics such as male pattern baldness, deepening of the voice, increased facial hair, and enlargement of the clitoris, as well as abnormal menstrual cycle and abnormal bleeding, and blood clots. Women may also be at increased risk for breast cancer and endometrial cancer. Children and adolescents are at risk for androgenic and estrogenic effects as in adults, for early onset of puberty, and for premature cessation of growth, such that they will be short as adults.

I'm not saying using the andro was ok per say, I'm just saying he was upfront and honest about it when asked, as far as I can tell. Sure, I wish that wasn't part of the Big Mac equation but it is. All I'm saying is that I would be more apt to believe Mac over someone like Canseco.

I've always maintained that they could all confess or produce video clips of them shooting up and people would still not believe it.

It's unbelievable to me there's a shred of doubt in anyone's mind as to what has been going on.

What he said.

I've been pulling my hair out over the blind stupidity of all the Barry Bonds apologists for 2-3 years now.

What he said.

I've been pulling my hair out over the blind stupidity of all the Barry Bonds apologists for 2-3 years now.
Same here.

And I put Sosa and McGwire in there too.

My HR champ is still Roger Maris.

yeah, i think it's becoming obvious McGwuire juiced. no one wants to admit it cuz the man helped saved baseball. Bonds isn't even an arguement.

Same here.

And I put Sosa and McGwire in there too.

My HR champ is still Roger Maris.
And you don't think that Maris was taking performance-enhancing drugs?

and have you notice McGwire has not gone on camera and denied it.

he only said he didnt thru a statement only..

if i was not guilty, i be going on televison and denied it.

Maybe McGwire is scare to show people what he looks like now. Maybe he lost 50 pounds.

McGwire is a private guy and has avoided the limelight all along. Personally I don't think that has anything to do with it.

The Palmero case is fascinating to look at from a numbers perspective. Pre and post Canseco per the dates referenced in the book.

The Palmero case is fascinating to look at from a numbers perspective. Pre and post Canseco per the dates referenced in the book.
But see, here's the problem with that. If I'm Canseco, I could make a story fit around the facts. Take Canseco out of the equation, and what do you have? You have a guy who developed 20-HR power around age 26 and broke through with 37 HRs at age 28. Not that unrealistic. In 1994, he signed with Baltimore, where he played in a hitters' park and then through the post-strike ball-juicing years. He then re-signed with Texas, and got to play in another clear HR-hitters' park (which didn't open until after he left the first time, btw).

There have been dozens of good HR hitters who develop power in their mid-20s and then go on to hit 30-40 HRs a year until they get so old they need viagra. Canseco can make a good story fit with the facts, but it doesn't make it true.

I'm expecting to read that in 1995, he and Brady Anderson worked out together in the off-season and pumped each other full of steroids [insert joke here], leading Brady to hit his 50 HRs in 1996. However, Brady soon got a conscience and decided to stop taking steroids halfway through 1996, and as a result, his HR power dropped and he was never quite the same ballplayer again. Sounds good? Sure. Possible? Maybe. True? Who the hell knows, but if it comes from Canseco, I'm waiting for the corroborating evidence.

But see, here's the problem with that. If I'm Canseco, I could make a story fit around the facts. Take Canseco out of the equation, and what do you have? You have a guy who developed 20-HR power around age 26 and broke through with 37 HRs at age 28. Not that unrealistic. In 1994, he signed with Baltimore, where he played in a hitters' park and then through the post-strike ball-juicing years. He then re-signed with Texas, and got to play in another clear HR-hitters' park (which didn't open until after he left the first time, btw).

There have been dozens of good HR hitters who develop power in their mid-20s and then go on to hit 30-40 HRs a year until they get so old they need viagra. Canseco can make a good story fit with the facts, but it doesn't make it true.

I'm expecting to read that in 1995, he and Brady Anderson worked out together in the off-season and pumped each other full of steroids [insert joke here], leading Brady to hit his 50 HRs in 1996. However, Brady soon got a conscience and decided to stop taking steroids halfway through 1996, and as a result, his HR power dropped and he was never quite the same ballplayer again. Sounds good? Sure. Possible? Maybe. True? Who the hell knows, but if it comes from Canseco, I'm waiting for the corroborating evidence.

I don't pretend to know the truth. Just thought the numbers were interesting.


Get off me, lawyer boy.


good points

Saw the interview. Seems that home run ball that bounced off his head in Texas did more damage than first realized.

Seriously, there are a lot of pro baseball players that are juiced because they make more money that way and baseball as an organization doesn't seem to care. Bonds, Consucko, Sosa, Giambi, Palmiero, a good chance all are or have been juiced at one time. McGwire, it's possible, but I don't believe Consucko for a minute.

And you don't think that Maris was taking performance-enhancing drugs?
Yeah, I thought it was pretty well known that most players in the 50s and 60s were taking 'greenies' (amphetamines)

On Boone: "I hit a double, and when I got out there to second base I got a good look at Boone. I couldn't believe my eyes. He was enormous. 'Oh my God,' I said to him. 'What have you been doing?' 'Shhh,' he said. 'Don't tell anybody.'"



I'm sorry, but this "conversation" reads like a soap opera script. Shhh, don't tell anybody? About what - his plan to blackmail his mother's stepfather's gay lover? Maybe I'd believe it more if Brett peed his pants in 1st grade and Jose was threatening to tell the class.

We get a lot of McGwrie apologists here in Saint Louis but here is the way I look at it. Tony LaRussa is coming to McGwire's defense saying it was his workout regiment and dedication and Jose Canseco is a liar. Didn't LaRussa say the same thing about Jason Giambi a few years ago and maybe even about Canseco? Not saying that LaRussa watched them inject steriods, but I don't know how credible I find him either.

Let's face it. McGwire, Sosa, and to some extent Bonds have saved the game of baseball from the post strike attendence and interest lows. Baseball didn't want to say anything and they are in a bind to say anything now. But to think most of the big guys weren't juiced is not really using logic.

But at the time it could have been a big joke to them. Like "heh, don't tell anyone, wink, wink".

But at the time it could have been a big joke to them. Like "heh, don't tell anyone, wink, wink".
I can see that. Boone did get very big pretty fast. I don't think we should discount Canseco's statements simply because he's Jose Canseco. I'm sure there is some truth behind it.

To McGwire, if he came out and publically denied, what would it matter. Are you telling me that McGwire could say something that would convince people that believe he was juicing that he wasn't? What would that be?

Guys like McGwire and Palmiero are in a no-win. They are basically answering the question of "When did you stop beating your wife?". There's nothing they can do to convince those that think they juiced, so it's probably best to let the story run its course and move on. The more they talk, the more legs the story has.

I can see that. Boone did get very big pretty fast. I don't think we should discount Canseco's statements simply because he's Jose Canseco. I'm sure there is some truth behind it.

Again, I can see holding Canseco in low regard but come on people.

Caminitti, Giambi. Those we know. Are we to assume that this is isolated?

I can't fathom thinking that when you combine everything together.

Whether an individual case is true or not, it's clear what the deal was overall.

We get a lot of McGwrie apologists here in Saint Louis but here is the way I look at it. Tony LaRussa is coming to McGwire's defense saying it was his workout regiment and dedication and Jose Canseco is a liar. Didn't LaRussa say the same thing about Jason Giambi a few years ago and maybe even about Canseco? Not saying that LaRussa watched them inject steriods, but I don't know how credible I find him either.

Let's face it. McGwire, Sosa, and to some extent Bonds have saved the game of baseball from the post strike attendence and interest lows. Baseball didn't want to say anything and they are in a bind to say anything now. But to think most of the big guys weren't juiced is not really using logic.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I also belive that last part. Baseball turned its cheek to save its butt and now they're like, wtf? We didn't know it was running rampant.

Todd

[/b]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I also belive that last part. Baseball turned its check to save its butt and now they're like, wtf? We didn't know it was running rampant.

Todd

That's the best point of all.

This subject is screaming for a flere diagram...

I don't ge the Palmeiro talk, the dude's never been a huge guy. He has a sweet swing and has played in hitters parks (like Ksyrup pointed out), and he's been injury free throughout his career. You could certainly make a case for Juan Gonzalez, but I think Raffy is and has been clean...

The only thing I question is his single digit homerun years for the Cubs followed by a dramatic increase in homers.

Here's the problem - the game itself has been tainted. I'm personally an O's and Palmeiro fan. However, anytime I see a Palmeiro, Brady Anderson or Kirby Puckett come out of nowhere to start hitting the long ball, I'm going to have to question it. It's sad, really.

I don't ge the Palmeiro talk, the dude's never been a huge guy. He has a sweet swing and has played in hitters parks (like Ksyrup pointed out), and he's been injury free throughout his career. You could certainly make a case for Juan Gonzalez, but I think Raffy is and has been clean...

I dunno... I think the Viagra has been helping him swing his stick for a few years now.

I dunno... I think the Viagra has been helping him swing his stick for a few years now.
^^ We have a winner! lol :D

I read something in the Daily News today about an FBI investigation on anbolic steroids in sports in 1990s that seems to corroborate a few of the names that Canseco mentioned in his book. Of course, MLB is denying ever hearing about it or the agent in charge of the investigation. Calling Canseco a liar is one thing, but it does seem pretty ballsy of MLB to say the same thing about the FBI...

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/281011p-240815c.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/281012p-240817c.html (accompanying Lupica column)

Per Franklinoble's request, I am not hxxp-ing this. The only objectionable content here is Major League Baseball's brazen hypocrisy...

I found this pretty interesting...and, with respect to the alleged Bret Boone conversation, pretty telling. It's even funnier when you consider the suggestions that he was envious of McGwire and apparently recounted a HR McGwire hit as one of his own...


By Jeff Merron
Page 2

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Whatever Jose Canseco's reputation is, he may or may not be telling the truth in "Juiced." Vague accusations and unverifiable assertions abound. But once in a while, Canseco writes things that can be factually checked.

So is the book, as Canseco's attorney, Robert Saunooke, told Mike and Mike on ESPN radio, "100 percent" accurate. Is Jose a "very reliable" and "very credible" writer?

Let's have a look ...

On his rookie season (1986):



We went to Detroit ... Walt Terrell gave me a good pitch to hit. I took a big swing and hit a home run to center field that ended up in the Tiger Stadium upper deck. They told me afterward that I had already hit a home run in every AL ballpark as a rookie.
-- p. 65
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=5 rowSpan=2><SPACER height="1" width="5" type="block"></TD><TD width=195>http://espn.starwave.com/media/mlb/2005/0216/photo/g_canseco_vi.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; LINE-HEIGHT: 13px" width=195>Jose Canseco back in his heyday with the A's.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Canseco didn't hit a home run in Detroit in 1986. Or in Kansas City, for that matter. So what "they" told him about hitting a homer in every ballpark as a rookie was wrong, even if you take into account his 1985 September callup.

According to Retrosheet, Jose went 4-for-8 (three singles and a triple) in three games against Terrell in 1986. That monster shot? Canseco is probably remembering Mark McGwire's first major league homer, a colossal 450-foot blast off Terrell in Detroit on August 25.

* * * * *


On Bret Boone:



I remember one day during 2001 spring training, when I was with the Anaheim Angels in a game against the Seattle Mariners, Bret Boone's new team. I hit a double, and when I got out there to second base I got a good look at Boone. I couldn't believe my eyes. He was enormous. "Oh my God," I said to him. "What have you been doing?"

"Shhh," he said. "Don't tell anybody." Whispers like that were a sign that you were part of the club ...
-- p. 264
This conversation almost certainly didn't take place.

The Mariners and Angels played five spring training games in 2001.

On Friday, March 2, the Angels beat the Mariners, 5-2. Jose went 0-for-2 as a DH, and did not reach base.

On Friday, March 9, the Mariners beat the Angels, 8-3. Canseco struck out twice in two at-bats. Boone did not play.

On Sunday, March 11, the Angels beat the Mariners, 5-4. Neither Canseco or Boone played.

On Monday, March 12, a Mariners split-squad beat an Angels split squad, 4-2. Canseco did not play.

On Tuesday, March 27, the Mariners beat the Angels, 15-2. Canseco did not play.

In spring training 2001, Canseco hit only one double in 39 at bats. He did not steal a base.

* * * * *


On the 2000 Subway Series against the Mets:



In Game 6, though, I was sitting there on the Yankee bench on a cold night at Shea Stadium ... But all of a sudden, Torre called down to me. "Canseco, you're hitting." ...

I went up to the plate to pinch-hit for David Cone, and it was bad. Three strikes and you're out.
-- pp. 232-233
As Rob Neyer pointed out, there was no Game 6 of the 2000 World Series.

Canseco batted for Cone in Game 4, and it was an important at-bat in a close game. The Yankees led 3-2 with two on and two out when Jose did strike out looking, on a 2-2 pitch.


That's a detail most players wouldn't want to be fuzzy about.

* * * * *


On breaking through to the majors:



I was very aware that baseball was closed to a young Latino like me ... Many talented young athletes were playing street baseball in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Domincan Republic, and many other Latin American countries, but the barriers to breaking into the major leagues were almost impossible for most to get around.
-- p. 39


Here's how "closed" baseball was in 1982, the year which he is writing about: 29 Puerto Ricans and 33 Dominicans played in the majors that season. That's 62 players -- I stopped counting after that -- breaking the "impossible" barriers.

Among those 62: Jose Cruz, two-time All-Star; Sixto Lezcano, 1979 Gold Glover; Willie Hernandez, the 1984 AL MVP and Cy Young Award winner.

* * * * *


More on his rookie season:



I was glad to get back to Oakland after the All-Star break ... I started the second half going 0-for-40 ... it was the worst slump of my life.
-- p. 64


Canseco did have an 0-for-40 run that began on Aug. 8, 108 games into the season, but coming back from the All-Star break, he went 2-for-4 in his first game, and 7-for-37 in the first 10 games following the break.