What is gardenhire thinking? I understand letting nathan pitch the third inning. but after 8 straight balls, and the fact he hasnt pitched this long the entire season why the hell wouldnt you take him out?

After the first guy reached, he should have been pulled. Romero should have been warming up to start the inning. Now you've killed your closer AND you have nothing to show for it.

I just don't understand the thought process in these games. It's like any Joe Schmo could make a better choice in these situations - not that they'd work out 100% of the time, but they'd be defensible. I jus don't see how Gardenhire could think Nathan would make it through the entire 3rd inning without getting tired, or at least anticipating it by warming up a guy. What's the worst that happens? He closes out the game and you've tired out one guy in the bullpen from warming up?

What is gardenhire thinking? I understand letting nathan pitch the third inning. but after 8 straight balls, and the fact he hasnt pitched this long the entire season why the hell wouldnt you take him out?

What's worse was that he wasn't even gettting another pitcher warmed up!?

He obviously did not watch the ALCS Game 7 last year. Or maybe that was Grady Little in a Gardenhire costume.

Gardenhire in my mind has been in that job longer than he should've been anyway. Like he doesn't strike me as the first pick for manager. It was more that Pohlad is a cheapsake, me thinks.

I hope they pull it out. I'd love to see the Evil Empire denied again.

3 years and 3 Division titles and you would fire him? Don't understand that. I also don't think he's fried out, they have a off day tomorrow and he'll be ready on Saturday. As far as strategy, he should have had someone warming up, but they are not very confident in Romero right now.

JETER!

Mr. Clutch does it again. Great baserunning.

3 years and 3 Division titles and you would fire him? Don't understand that. I also don't think he's fried out, they have a off day tomorrow and he'll be ready on Saturday. As far as strategy, he should have had someone warming up, but they are not very confident in Romero right now.

Ok..I'll go stick my foot in my mouth.

JETER!

Mr. Clutch does it again. Great baserunning.

Perhaps I'm being slow here, but how did 'Great baserunning' play into that 12th inning now? Are you actually saying someone else wouldn't have tagged up?

Perhaps I'm being slow here, but how did 'Great baserunning' play into that 12th inning now? Are you actually saying someone else wouldn't have tagged up?

it wasn't like it was to the warning track. it was a line drive, and he quickly got back, some guys would've waited too long, but jeters instincts prove right again.

if that example doesn't work as clutch for you, that's fine, it's not like there aren't any more.

it wasn't like it was to the warning track. it was a line drive, and he quickly got back, some guys would've waited too long, but jeters instincts prove right again.

if that example doesn't work as clutch for you, that's fine, it's not like there aren't any more.

No one would have waited, they would have done the same thing.

it wasn't like it was to the warning track. it was a line drive, and he quickly got back, some guys would've waited too long, but jeters instincts prove right again.

if that example doesn't work as clutch for you, that's fine, it's not like there aren't any more.

Who would have waited?

And 'clutch' play doesn't exist. Unless you are seriously claiming that Jeter was holding back during the regular season.

Who would have waited?



Engleberg, C, Bears :D

Who would have waited?

And 'clutch' play doesn't exist. Unless you are seriously claiming that Jeter was holding back during the regular season.

clutch play doesn't exist. fine. your opinion. but when the games on the line, jeter is always consistent in not letting the pressure get to him and making the big play.

and to assume i am saying he is holding back in the regular season is ignorant. he plays his ass off all year, but when it comes playoff time, he kicks it up even further. why else does he lead all players in playoff hits. he probably won't get 3000, but he'll be the career leader in postseason hits.

so think what you want, but if i had to make a team for the playoffs, jeter and mariano rivera would be my top two picks.

I think Gardenhire wasn't real confident in Romero, plus he would have been a lefty going against Payrod and Sheffield. Yeah, I know, Nathan was obviously completely gassed, but the Twins really didn't have any good options. Bottom line, just not enough talent in the pen.

and one more thing, apparently everyone didn't know he would run home, because jones didn't make a play at the plate. but i figure you know more then a major leaguer.

No, it's just that Jones has a shitty arm. A whopping total of 7 assists the last two years.

The "clutch" baserunning is almost as bad as "oh look at Jeter dive into the stands" crap from early in the season. Did you not see the guy take 4 steps before his leap? Come on now.

dola

There are 35 OF's out of 55 that have more assists this season than Jones that have played in less than 142 games, the amount of games Jones has played in.

when it comes playoff time, he kicks it up even further.

So why doesn't he play that kicked-up way in the regular season? Why does it only happen in the postseason? I'll ask again, why is he holding back in the regular season?

So why doesn't he play that kicked-up way in the regular season? Why does it only happen in the postseason? I'll ask again, why is he holding back in the regular season?

like i said in another thread. before 2002, barry bonds did nothing in the post season. so did he just decide it was time to phone it in in october?

like i said in another thread. before 2002, barry bonds did nothing in the post season. so did he just decide it was time to phone it in in october?

Bonds' playoff rep was an idiotic assumption based on a small sample size.

So are you saying that people can't do worse than their best? Have you never heard of a slump before? But are you claiming that people can do better than their best? If you claim Jeter's best is in the playoffs (and saying that that is better than his regular season) then why isn't he playing up to his capabilities in the regular season?

Who would have waited?

And 'clutch' play doesn't exist. Unless you are seriously claiming that Jeter was holding back during the regular season.
I'm not sure if waited was the right word, but I know for a fact that there's plenty of players who wouldn't even thought about tagging up on that ball. Just look at Jones reaction after catching it. You can go on all day about Jones' arm but there's no doubt he wasn't even thinking about a tag up on that play.

I don't agree with your assesment that clutch play doesnt exist. Im not saying Jeter mails it in during the season but he definetly turns it up during the playoffs. If you think these players have the same mentality in game 94 of the season, against a team that has been eliminated after the first month, then your mistaken. Its just human nature to have the adrenaline pumping.

One of the definitions of clutch is that you dont choke when the pressure is on. So maybe it isnt so much that Jeter turns it up, but it's that he's able to play on the same high level when he's under the microscope, as all players are during the playoffs. Where as many notable players, Bonds (pre-2002) and Bagwell seem to always go into slumps.

What is gardenhire thinking? I understand letting nathan pitch the third inning. but after 8 straight balls, and the fact he hasnt pitched this long the entire season why the hell wouldnt you take him out?

Maybe Grady Little was speaking to him from beyond the grave.

The scary thing is the Phillies have Little as a front-runner for their managerial job.

God help me if they hire him.

This is another damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, so I won't give Gardenhire grief. If he had removed Nathan after the first batter and the Yankees failed they would be calling for his head - "How could you remove your #1 closer after one batter, blah, blah, blah".

For Yankee haters like myself, last night will only make their ultimate demise that much sweeter.

As a White Sox fan, I've grown accustomed to the Twins playing such great fundamental baseball that it doesn't matter how much better the Sox look on paper or how many opportunities the Sox have to win games against them, the Twins will win because the White Sox will do something stupid and the Twins will capitalize every single time, without fail.

So whose bright idea was it to have the White Sox wears Twins uniforms and play the bottom of the 12th last night?? Of all the times to suddenly be out-fundamentaled and out-managed, they pick the 12th inning of a crucial playoff game, against the Yankees, no less. Thanks for nothing, jerks. :mad: :mad: :mad:

This is another damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, so I won't give Gardenhire grief. If he had removed Nathan after the first batter and the Yankees failed they would be calling for his head - "How could you remove your #1 closer after one batter, blah, blah, blah".

For Yankee haters like myself, last night will only make their ultimate demise that much sweeter.I don't agree. No one would have faulted him for taking out his completely gassed closer after 2.1 innings. He had walked Miguel Cairo, for chrissakes! On 4 pitches! And, he got lucky on the borderline call to Olerud.

No, that was a no-brainer. He should have had someone up. Even a 100% less effective reliever is better than a spent great closer. This was an old-school, "stick with your guy" move by Gardenhire, and he blew it.

One of the definitions of clutch is that you dont choke when the pressure is on. So maybe it isnt so much that Jeter turns it up, but it's that he's able to play on the same high level when he's under the microscope, as all players are during the playoffs. Where as many notable players, Bonds (pre-2002) and Bagwell seem to always go into slumps.

Or could it be just normal statistical variability due to small sample sizes? You say Bonds pre-2002, because he is now the all-time leader in World Series AVG, OBP, and OPS. Did he suddenly become "clutch?" Of course someone will be the goat and someone will be he hero, but in small sample sizes, you don't know it the "hero" is more "clutch" than anyone else.

I don't agree. No one would have faulted him for taking out his completely gassed closer after 2.1 innings. He had walked Miguel Cairo, for chrissakes! On 4 pitches! And, he got lucky on the borderline call to Olerud.

No, that was a no-brainer. He should have had someone up. Even a 100% less effective reliever is better than a spent great closer. This was an old-school, "stick with your guy" move by Gardenhire, and he blew it.

What he said.

I know for a fact that there's plenty of players who wouldn't even thought about tagging up on that ball.

You know for a fact that people wouldn't have tagged up on a play like that? Well then, I know for a fact that there's plenty of players who would tagged up and scored on that play.

There was a reason when I say the fly I said "This game is over" even before Jeter came home.

Usually the announcers love to kiss Jeter's ass. I didn't hear them go on and on about how brilliant Jeter's baserunning was, which they undoubtably have done if it was rare.

One of the definitions of clutch is that you dont choke when the pressure is on. So maybe it isnt so much that Jeter turns it up, but it's that he's able to play on the same high level when he's under the microscope, as all players are during the playoffs. Where as many notable players, Bonds (pre-2002) and Bagwell seem to always go into slumps.

John Galt is definetly correct. I love how people refer to Bonds pre-2002, because obviously in 2002 he destroyed his whole 'choker' label. The question has to be asked, did Bonds suddenly become clutch? And if he did, then does clutch matter if you can so easily go from choker to clutch?

The numbers are based on very small sample sizes where you really can't make much determinations at all.

Oh, and the BA and OPS numbers for Jeter in the postseason are just about exact to his career regular season numbers. What clutch play?

As a White Sox fan, I've grown accustomed to the Twins playing such great fundamental baseball that it doesn't matter how much better the Sox look on paper or how many opportunities the Sox have to win games against them, the Twins will win because the White Sox will do something stupid and the Twins will capitalize every single time, without fail.

So whose bright idea was it to have the White Sox wears Twins uniforms and play the bottom of the 12th last night?? Of all the times to suddenly be out-fundamentaled and out-managed, they pick the 12th inning of a crucial playoff game, against the Yankees, no less. Thanks for nothing, jerks. :mad: :mad: :mad:

As a fellow white sox fan, I know exactly what you mean.

Somebody did a study a few years ago to try to prove that Derek Jeter was a clutch player. I forget whether it was the SABR folks or the SCIA people, but the final outcome of the study proved without doubt that Derek Jeter was in fact a clutch player. Unfortunately the study also found that Jeter was a jerk, so I guess the moral is - be careful what you wish for.

The "some guys wouldn't have tagged" line doesn't work either. Of course some guys aren't going to tag on a line drive to normal RF, but these are guys like David Ortiz or AJ Pryzinski who flat out can't run. There is no way a guy like Jeter with 20+ SB's does not tag and try to win the game in that situation.

Gardenhire said after the game he didn't like his other options. Talk about having confidence in your bullpen. If they lose this series he should get fired.

Gardenhire said after the game he didn't like his other options. Talk about having confidence in your bullpen. If they lose this series he should get fired.
He only had one option - THINK.

Maybe it's already been used often in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, but that is one fine thread title.

Whether there is clutch or not, I don't know.

However, saying Jeter has the exact same stats in the regular season as the postseason overlooks something.

Not every bat in the post season is a clutch at bat by any means. His lead off home run in the 1st was not clutch, but it counts we are counting that in his post season stats.

I dont particularly care if he is clutch or not, but being a Yankee fan, he is held up on a higher perch because in most of these tremendous playoff games the Yankees somehow find a way to pull out of their collective asses in the last 10 years, he is usually involved as the hitter, runner, etc... Is it clutch? Who knows, but there is something to be said for him playing a huge role in the tense games night after night, and year after year.

I dunno, Bonds choked in game 6 when he made that error in LF

Usually the announcers love to kiss Jeter's ass. I didn't hear them go on and on about how brilliant Jeter's baserunning was, which they undoubtably have done if it was rare

well, actually they did. Joe "Idiot" Morgan had say something about it. But that's not really saying much. It's a no-brainer to me - if the guy on 3rd DIDN'T score on the play, it would have been a huge blunder. Any fool would have known to tag up.

Any fool would have known to tag up.
I'm suprised so many of you feel that way. The ball was hit so hard and it was in shallow right. I don't think many people would try to tag on that play. At most only those with a lot of speed would attempt it. I think it totally caught Jones by suprise, thats why he didnt throw the ball in with supreme urgency.

I'm suprised so many of you feel that way. The ball was hit so hard and it was in shallow right. I don't think many people would try to tag on that play. At most only those with a lot of speed would attempt it. I think it totally caught Jones by suprise, thats why he didnt throw the ball in with supreme urgency.

anyone who has ever played the game of baseball knows that when you are on third base and there are less than 2 outs you ALWAYS go back to tag up. ALWAYS. They drill that into your head from day 1.

anyone who has ever played the game of baseball knows that when you are on third base and there are less than 2 outs you ALWAYS go back to tag up. ALWAYS. They drill that into your head from day 1.

You always go back to tag, but you don't necessarily run. I think just about every speed guy would in that situation, but it wasn't exactly your typical deep sac fly. I think its more a product of scouting and knowing Jones has such a weak arm than Jeter having a 6th sense.

I played college baseball, so I know my way around the game pretty well. Going back to tag up, and actually doing it are two different things. I get the fact that he should go back to the bag and get ready to go, Im not praising him for that. This was one of those play where if Jeter is successful you say good job, but if he's gunned down you say, what the hell were you thinking?

Apparently the word is that Jeter told someone after the game that he was going on that play no matter what.

Jeter leads in postseason hits because he has been on a team that has always made it plus he has 3 rounds to get hits in, as opposed to the previous ways of doing things with just the NL vs AL matchup or the split Divisions (LDS)