hxxp://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aP1UVMtUL4Q4&refer=asia

I don't think I've seen much discussion here about the world economy, but I figured I'd throw this one out there. Any thoughts?

Also, maybe I'm the only one who finds this insightful, but here (hxxp://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/000007.html) are a pair of graphs plotting economic freedom with income.

Not to sound too much of a wise-ass, but isn't price control one of the fundamentals of a Communist country, which China still is? I would be more shocked to see a message that said "China's communist politburo lets market decide growth and supply and demand."

Not to sound too much of a wise-ass, but isn't price control one of the fundamentals of a Communist country, which China still is? I would be more shocked to see a message that said "China's communist politburo lets market decide growth and supply and demand."Well yes and no. It is one of the fundamental tenets of communism, but China's Communist Party has been opening up its markets and liberalizing its economy a fair amount to try and maintain its hold on power. The article quotes someone who say that 90% of prices are dictated by the market anyway, so they'll be unaffected, but the conjecture is that this could force the state banks to bail out the state companies and exacerbate the banks already huge debt load problem. If that problem causes a serious slowdown in China's economy, the effects could be very widespread.

Personally, I'm very much a believer in free market economics, and that state controlled economies don't work (except possibly in small areas, like Singapore.) So while it has been interesting seeing China trying to balance the two (by using market economics but state control of everything else) it appears that the inherent contradiction may be catching up to them.

Well yes and no. It is one of the fundamental tenets of communism, but China's Communist Party has been opening up its markets and liberalizing its economy a fair amount to try and maintain its hold on power. The article quotes someone who say that 90% of prices are dictated by the market anyway, so they'll be unaffected, but the conjecture is that this could force the state banks to bail out the state companies and exacerbate the banks already huge debt load problem. If that problem causes a serious slowdown in China's economy, the effects could be very widespread.

Personally, I'm very much a believer in free market economics, and that state controlled economies don't work (except possibly in small areas, like Singapore.) So while it has been interesting seeing China trying to balance the two (by using market economics but state control of everything else) it appears that the inherent contradiction may be catching up to them.

It'll get them one way or the other. For some reason everyone seems to believe the numbers China throws out there. It's not like they follow GAAP. Eventually things will blow up in their face. One day they'll wake up and be France. :D

The main thing with them is that free elections go hand in hand with free markets. It's impossible to reap the benefits of one without the other.

Remember, Communism doesn't work. So they are doomed to fail.

Remember, Communism doesn't work. So they are doomed to fail.

Im hoping this was a sarcastic comment...as much as i may support democracy, i just cant understand comments like this. The same goes for people who say their religion is right and everyone else is going to hell. Who the hell are we to say what is right and is not right...

Im hoping this was a sarcastic comment...as much as i may support democracy, i just cant understand comments like this. The same goes for people who say their religion is right and everyone else is going to hell. Who the hell are we to say what is right and is not right...

I can't help but feed the fire: so everything looks grey in your world?

The main thing with them is that free elections go hand in hand with free markets. It's impossible to reap the benefits of one without the other.Do they? Maybe I'm uninformed, but I can't really remember anyone trying market economics while maintaining state control of things like the media, elections, on a large scale. Don't get me wrong, I despise Communism more than the next guy, but we've seen in other countries that free elections and state-controlled markets don't work, so it'd be interesting if a country as big as China tried the opposite approach.

I can't help but feed the fire: so everything looks grey in your world?

Its all sooo dark...why cant it all just end :p

Im hoping this was a sarcastic comment...as much as i may support democracy, i just cant understand comments like this. The same goes for people who say their religion is right and everyone else is going to hell. Who the hell are we to say what is right and is not right...Check out how Communist countries do versus Democratic countries. Check out how state controlled economies do against free market economics. 150 years should have taught us that Communism/Socialism/Marxism are all failures. Unfortunately a significant number of people haven't.

I was kidding around. Can't speak for anyone else.

Although the facts do speak for themselves. Except for China. :)

Point out any democracy that has lasted throughout time...i dont see any...every government type has ups and downs...we're in a succesful time right now, but im not sure we are nessecarily right...

Point out any democracy that has lasted throughout time...i dont see any...every government type has ups and downs...we're in a succesful time right now, but im not sure we are nessecarily right...

200 years and counting baby! :D

Point out any democracy that has lasted throughout time...i dont see any...every government type has ups and downs...we're in a succesful time right now, but im not sure we are nessecarily right...I believe Marx was right in that there is an inevitable flow of history. I just think the end results are representative governments and market economies.

Do they? Maybe I'm uninformed, but I can't really remember anyone trying market economics while maintaining state control of things like the media, elections, on a large scale. Don't get me wrong, I despise Communism more than the next guy, but we've seen in other countries that free elections and state-controlled markets don't work, so it'd be interesting if a country as big as China tried the opposite approach.

Yes, it's a more recent school, the past 20 years or so, of thought that ties the two together, but the general consensus is that they are a necessary combination. When I say free elections I mean everything that accompanies that, constitution, property rights, etc..

It'll be interesting with China just as long as things don't collapse and some loony gets his finger on their nukes.

I think the thing with China is going to be one of two outcomes:

1. Because absolute power corrupts and these guys want to cling to power as much as the next corrupt dictator, they will be overtaken by market forces while still trying to keep an iron grip. The government will collapse after the civilian temperant reaches a certain level. The problem with free markets is that it's very difficult to undo what's been done.

2. The army grows tired of the liberal policies and takes over things, installing a new, more conservative leadership that starts to dismantle the reforms that have been made.

I don't see a way that China reaches it's potential without the government stepping aside and allowing the people choice. Once a market is opened, minds start getting opened. People will demand elections as part of their basic rights. Something will have to give eventually.

Its all sooo dark...why cant it all just end :p

Are you living in Cuba? I hear the power goes out a lot there. :p

Are you living in Cuba? I hear the power goes out a lot there. :pBut Cuba has the 45th best health care in the world! It's a tropical paradise. (Never mind that the health care was 9th when Castro came into power.)

But Cuba has the 45th best health care in the world! It's a tropical paradise. (Never mind that the health care was 9th when Castro came into power.)

That's not Communism's fault though! Who are we to say that their system of government that oppresses the masses is wrong? :D

We're a republic, not a democracy.

you guys are WHACK TRIPPIN!

I aint over here earning my bread (if the man ever gives them to me) for no fuckin republic-type shit.

USA = democracy.

We're a republic, not a democracy.
Depends on who you ask...

Point out any democracy that has lasted throughout time...i dont see any...every government type has ups and downs...we're in a succesful time right now, but im not sure we are nessecarily right...

Point out any civilization that has lasted throughout time, regardless of form of government. And true democracy is a very new form of government, but the Magna Carter has been around since 1215 and England has done okay.

Depends on who you ask...

Well, if you ask a dictionary, we're a republic, not a democracy. :D

Point out any civilization that has lasted throughout time, regardless of form of government. And true democracy is a very new form of government, but the Magna Carter has been around since 1215 and England has done okay.

See: Athens, Ancient Greece

Point out any civilization that has lasted throughout time, regardless of form of government. And true democracy is a very new form of government, but the Magna Carter has been around since 1215 and England has done okay.

And here I thought Jimmy didn't get started as a diplomat 'til after Reagan ousted him.

Well, if you ask a dictionary, we're a republic, not a democracy. :D

Now that was good. :)

Are you living in Cuba? I hear the power goes out a lot there. :pBut Cuba has the 45th best health care in the world! It's a tropical paradise. (Never mind that the health care was 9th when Castro came into power.)That's not Communism's fault though! Who are we to say that their system of government that oppresses the masses is wrong? :D


Desnudo is smart...And it does go dark here in Cuba a lot...i remember a while back when our power was out for about 13 days...something about yankee pigs and their spreading democracy...damn americanos

Point out any civilization that has lasted throughout time, regardless of form of government. And true democracy is a very new form of government, but the Magna Carter has been around since 1215 and England has done okay.


Little thing called WW2 where we saved their asses...and they did real well in the American Revolution too...They are only ok because we allow them to stick around