Joe Stallings has posted several new screens over at the .400 message bord.

Link here (http://www.400softwarestudios.com/invboard/upload/index.php?showtopic=45274&st=45&#entry421187)

This game *looks* excellent, but what I really want to know is the meat and potatoes. How will the members of FOFC tear the game apart to see what it's really worth?

kcchief? :)


Todd

The screens do look great, but .400 has to get over their little problem of releasing sports games after the sport's real life season has ended (or is close to ending).

Take into account that it's going to be at minimum 3 weeks before the game is playable after release and now you are looking at around Super Bowl week before you can sit down and really play TPF.

It's just way too late.

Originally posted by lynchjm24
The screens do look great, but .400 has to get over their little problem of releasing sports games after the sport's real life season has ended (or is close to ending).

Take into account that it's going to be at minimum 3 weeks before the game is playable after release and now you are looking at around Super Bowl week before you can sit down and really play TPF.

It's just way too late.

I dont know about you but I play my football sims all year long. Not just during "football season".

Originally posted by maximus
I dont know about you but I play my football sims all year long. Not just during "football season".

Same here. Hopefully version 2 will be released before the NFL season starts.

Originally posted by maximus
I dont know about you but I play my football sims all year long. Not just during "football season".

Listen, I know you've already crowned this game "Champion of the Sports Sim World".

Most of the rest of us who live here in reality take a wait and see approach on these games. A few fancy screens and a couple of people who keep saying 'Don't worry guys this game is going to be great', doesn't prove anything.

While you may play football sims all year long - there are a good amount of sims on the market now for all different types of sports. By February, I'm ready for baseball. That is what I'm anticipating in real life, not football, which just ended (or for Giants fans - ended months ago).

My point is: I probably won't buy this game at this point. There are only so many hours in the day - and it's really going to have to be a special game to be better then FOF. I don't have time to beta-test, which is what you'll be doing with TPF for about a month. The game won't be 'playable' until late January. By then, I'm anticipating baseball and it's much harder for a football sim to hold my attention.

I know this isn't the case for everyone, I do suspect there are other folks like me who would be a lot more interested in TPF 2 if it comes out in August instead of December of whatever year they release it. By releasing off the peak season of interest, you lose sales. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone nor am I anti-.400, just thought I would point it out.

I'm in agreement lynchjm24. I am a *seasonal* sport sim player. Not saying I don't still play FOF in the spring time, ootp in the winter, etc... but the height of my sports sim playing for one game is at the height of that sport's real season.

Releasing a game this late isn't helping sales, imo. If the demo doesn't show major differences than FOF 2004, I'm sure some will steer clear of the game. I'm sure future releases of the game will be closer to the start of the NFL season, but it IS a factor.

Why do you think console sports games release at the start of the season for that particular sport? Would you have bought Madden today if you were a college basketball fan and had just bought ESPN CBB 2k4?


Todd

I agree, while the game looks good, I will definitely think twice about purchasing at this time of year. I don't think I've played a football video game in about a month and a half. The ONLY sports game I have ever played all year round was CM, and even then, I tailed off quite a bit in the summer. And that is a sport that essentially goes year-round anyways.

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Listen, I know you've already crowned this game "Champion of the Sports Sim World".

Most of the rest of us who live here in reality take a wait and see approach on these games. A few fancy screens and a couple of people who keep saying 'Don't worry guys this game is going to be great', doesn't prove anything.

While you may play football sims all year long - there are a good amount of sims on the market now for all different types of sports. By February, I'm ready for baseball. That is what I'm anticipating in real life, not football, which just ended (or for Giants fans - ended months ago).

My point is: I probably won't buy this game at this point. There are only so many hours in the day - and it's really going to have to be a special game to be better then FOF. I don't have time to beta-test, which is what you'll be doing with TPF for about a month. The game won't be 'playable' until late January. By then, I'm anticipating baseball and it's much harder for a football sim to hold my attention.

I know this isn't the case for everyone, I do suspect there are other folks like me who would be a lot more interested in TPF 2 if it comes out in August instead of December of whatever year they release it. By releasing off the peak season of interest, you lose sales. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone nor am I anti-.400, just thought I would point it out.

Take it easy .....

EDIT: I think I was being to harsh but to say that I have crowned the game as champion is idiotic. Do I think that it will be a great sim....I believe it has the *potential* to.

Originally posted by MizzouRah
This game *looks* excellent, but what I really want to know is the meat and potatoes. How will the members of FOFC tear the game apart to see what it's really worth?

kcchief? :)


Todd
Man, you guys keep egging Joe on like that and one day he's going to send some hired goons to my house :)

I'm very impressed with the screenshots. It's hard to tell much from screenshots, but there looks to be a solid foundation there.

Based on the screenshots, I only had two questions/observations:

1) Draft AI looks a little less than realistic -- two OG go 1-2 and third goes around 13th? I can't be too critical though -- I see this happen in FOF more than I would like.

2) Joe put a tender offer on a UFA with 5 years experience, making him an RFA. In the NFL, tender offers can only be placed on RFAs with less than four years experience. UFAs can only be tagged with a franchise or transition tag. Will this be a variance from NFL rules?

Looks good. I hope for everyone the game lives up to the hype. :)

Game looks splendid.
I'll most definitely give it a shot.

I play football sims year round, but I would think there's quite a few who play them only during football season. It only makes sense to me that the late release will hurt sales to some extent. What will be interesting is the shape the game is in when it's released. If it's solid and any patching would only be tweaking the game, I think that will help to increase sales. If it's released before it's ready, I think sales will plummet. Based on the previous releases of .400 Studios, I suspect there's quite a few who are going to wait for feedback concerning this release before putting their money down (although I could be wrong). If the game doesn't live up to the hype off the bat I think they could lose quite a few sales from folks waiting for it to be patched and then by the time it is, football season is over and everyone has moved on to other games. I hope this doesn't happen, but it's got to be a concern for those wanting to see the game succeed.

I'm definitely a seasonal player. Once OOTP comes out, I'll be in baseball mode for several months. In the offseason, I might fire up an FOF game occasionally, but I usualy stick with the seasons. Which is why I'm not sure I'm going to have time for the new hockey game. We'll see.

Originally posted by kcchief19
2) Joe put a tender offer on a UFA with 5 years experience, making him an RFA. In the NFL, tender offers can only be placed on RFAs with less than four years experience. UFAs can only be tagged with a franchise or transition tag. Will this be a variance from NFL rules?

Joe was mistaken... you can't do this in TPF. I just tried to do this several times, looking for the bug. You can only tag the guys listed as RFA. He may have tried to do this... but it didn't work. We'll have to see about getting a prompt telling you, that you can't do that.

I for one am going to support the first few versions of TPF (regardless of "quality"). The genre needs competition and fresh ideas and this is only good for all. If you can afford it, I suggest you do the same, even if you don't like it.

EA sports doesn't need "donations" but the text sim market does. If you like text sims and want to see them around, you have to buy the games. FOF has proven enough that I will buy without much question. TPF will need a few versions to get up to speed and I will be giving them the opportunity to do that.

Now, if the first and second versions suck anal-cheese, then I will have a wait-and-see for Version 3, but, I for one want to give them a fighting chance to push the genre forward, which they are, at the very least, attempting to do.

You are, of course, entitled to you opinion and I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong. I am just trying to present the predicament we, as text simmers, are in. Jim mentioned that if it wasn't for TCY he would probably be back in the corporate world. I think scott and joe have regular jobs, but there is only so many attempts they will make at this before they hang it up and then we are back to Strat-o-matic and using excel's Rand() function.

I do have a "regular" 9-5 job (I wish, 8-6 is probably closer to the truth) in addition to .400 Studios work.

At somepoint in the future I'll get a free moment or two to see my girlfriend again ;) , but not until we get TPF out. :D Obviously we'd like to think the game will be better than "sucking anal-cheese"...

Now for those extra instructions.......


the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog --> all will become clear at the designated time

Nice. I qualified it with an "if."

I liked Joe's little sim/screenshot dealie on your boards yesterday. The draft AI looks a little suspect, but that is, I'm guessing, a tweakable thing as opposed to a bug. I like the way you separate your FA signings from the rest of the roster. And, I see that you can see your O/D/SpecTeam rosters on their own screen too. Speaking of FA, I also like that you are attempting to simulate more of the process than FOF.

Other than that, as long as it closely emulates the NFL and doesn't give me carpal tunnel syndrome because of the interface, I will be happy.

Originally posted by ScottVib
Joe was mistaken... you can't do this in TPF. I just tried to do this several times, looking for the bug. You can only tag the guys listed as RFA. He may have tried to do this... but it didn't work. We'll have to see about getting a prompt telling you, that you can't do that.
Glad to hear that. Thanks, Scott.

BG, I actually do understand what you're saying. But at the same time, I don't believe in throwing good money at bad. I used to buy pretty much every text sim that comes out, but I don't know because not everyone appeals to me and not all are worthy of a purchase. If a game is bad, I don't see much money propping it up.

If you want to support "good" game design, maybe buy multiple copies of sims you like and give them as gifts or something. But that's just me.

For the record, I'm not making a judgement on TPF. Despite my well-documented past, I'll download the demo, give it a spin and listen to feedback. If I like, it I'll buy it.

Originally posted by kcchief19
BG, I actually do understand what you're saying. But at the same time, I don't believe in throwing good money at bad. I used to buy pretty much every text sim that comes out, but I don't know because not everyone appeals to me and not all are worthy of a purchase. If a game is bad, I don't see much money propping it up.

If you want to support "good" game design, maybe buy multiple copies of sims you like and give them as gifts or something. But that's just me.

For the record, I'm not making a judgement on TPF. Despite my well-documented past, I'll download the demo, give it a spin and listen to feedback. If I like, it I'll buy it.

The only sports text sims that interest me are American Football. No CM, OOTP, TPB, TDCB, etc etc. To add to that, the only one of interest to me in the last few years has been the FOF series.

Jim makes no excuses for his games and they are what they are. Good though the FOF series is, there are many features that are either missing or not included because Jim decided that is how it will be.

Along comes TPF. (i won't use my anal-cheese reference again) even if the first iteration falls short of expectations, there are doubtless many things it will do right that will add to the "way football text sims are done." This is essentially free research for Jim. He will be able to see another way to do it, see what people's reaction to them are and can either use it in the next version, or add to it, or reaffirm that his way is best.

To me, both sims benefit and, as a result, we benefit. Want it or not, Jim would probably never have included MultiP if TPF hadn't arrived on the scene. That is just the begining of what this "friendly" competition will do.

I don't work for either company and have no stake in their success, other than supporting them so they can make more of the types of games that I like to play. Doesn't hurt that they all seem like good guys. My only issue is Joe Stallings pic on their board... it is the creepiest image of John Lennon I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Bonegavel
I for one am going to support the first few versions of TPF (regardless of "quality"). The genre needs competition and fresh ideas and this is only good for all. If you can afford it, I suggest you do the same, even if you don't like it.

EA sports doesn't need "donations" but the text sim market does. If you like text sims and want to see them around, you have to buy the games. FOF has proven enough that I will buy without much question. TPF will need a few versions to get up to speed and I will be giving them the opportunity to do that.

Now, if the first and second versions suck anal-cheese, then I will have a wait-and-see for Version 3, but, I for one want to give them a fighting chance to push the genre forward, which they are, at the very least, attempting to do.

You are, of course, entitled to you opinion and I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong. I am just trying to present the predicament we, as text simmers, are in. Jim mentioned that if it wasn't for TCY he would probably be back in the corporate world. I think scott and joe have regular jobs, but there is only so many attempts they will make at this before they hang it up and then we are back to Strat-o-matic and using excel's Rand() function.

Becareful Bonegavel, you might be labled as a TPF fanboy like me. :)

no, the label only fits one of you ;)

Originally posted by maximus
Take it easy .....

EDIT: I think I was being to harsh but to say that I have crowned the game as champion is idiotic. Do I think that it will be a great sim....I believe it has the *potential* to.

Jeeze - I wish you hadn't edited out your response before I got to read it :(.

As I've said before, if the game plays as well as it looks, then we're in for a treat.... that's a pretty big if though.... I'll be watching for the release date with interest:)

This screenshot is the best thus far, imo:

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/tpf/screens/pbp.jpg


As someone who watches the text of every game my team plays, I REALLY like how nice this looks and the amount of information this gives the viewer.

This game is going to be interesting to say the least.


Todd

Guys, to make this easier, especially for those of you who dont visit the .400 site often, I have a complete screenshot collection that I just added.

TPF Screens (http://www.400rc.net/tpf/)

That's how to design a game plan editor, at least for us non-hardcore football fans. Starting in the offseason and complete league customization are other things I'm looking forward to.

Thanks for organizing the screen shots EagleEye11. Does anyone know the supposed release schedule? (Hopefully before Christmas....)

i am still going with this friday.

This Friday is my best guess as well. If it is, wow. ITP and TPF in one day. Best of all, I will be off for winter break for three weeks.

They said it will be out by Christmas, but that's it as far as release date goes.

FROM: Ben Lewis
TO: Arlie Rahn and Joe Stallings
RE: TPF

Arlie and Joe:

Don't worry about any of the engine tweaks or bug fixes that the beta team has suggested. Y'all should focus more on getting cool-looking screenshots out. That sounds like a much more cost-effective use of your time, because people have shown themselves to be willing to go nuts over the screen shots, while widely ignoring the stats engine information that you posted in that thread, despite the fact that there were at least a dozen stats in that list that were very far from reality. But really, it doesn't appear that you need to worry about fixing that stuff, since very few people commented on it, or even bothered to check if the numbers were accurate. Heck, I'd wager that very few people even bothered to look at the numbers, because the screen shots are a lot more pretty. For heaven's sake, give the people what they want--pretty screens!

--Ben

Dola--

I spent about four hours early this morning before work compiling data, creating a spreadsheet, analyzing the results, and detailing specific issues with the stats that are averaging out very similar to the one's in Joe's thread. Arlie (who was very appreciate of this, mind you) is going to tweak the engine to fix the issues that I brought up.

I have to wonder if Arlie and I both I wasted our time...

Double Dola:

No, I didn't send really send that message to Arlie and Joe, but it is what I felt reading that thread.

Well, skydog, maybe all those numbers are meaningless to me without the game right now. I have faith that you and the rest of the beta team will fix what needs fixing in there, but if not then you can be sure you'll hear from more people at the release.

At least the look of the game is something that will not change before we get the game, so we can accurately judge the looks.

I looked at the numbers but I have zero time to compare data with real life numbers. I figured that someone would analyze them and it looks like SD you are the one that did. Thanks. I can't wait for TPF, but if the numbers don't feel right then it doesn't matter how good a game may look.

And since I didnt really make this point in my last post, I agree wholeheartedly with you Skydog that fixing the stats is most important. Its just that, I cant possibly judge that right now without the game.

Punt returns for TD's and completion percentages in particular should send up near-immediate red flags.

I was concentrating on how the information was being presented. I like that the roster can be seen as Off/Def/SpecT and the FAs on the team have their own screen where you can concentrate on signing them. In FOF, I have to go to contract and sort by EndCtrct. I like the separation.

The numbers are hopefully tweakable, meaning that they hopefully just need to adjust the Albert Gorythm to bring them into line. Not a bug, but a tweak.

But, I thought that is why they are holding release until December 2014 :D

Originally posted by Bonegavel
The numbers are hopefully tweakable, meaning that they hopefully just need to adjust the Albert Gorythm to bring them into line. Not a bug, but a tweak.Yes, the numbers are tweak-able, and will be tweaked.

According to the list he dumped, the average Kick Return for TDs is .011.

Multiplied by total games (16*32) gives 512 * .011 = 5.632 per year. To date, there have been 11 in the NFL. It didn't dawn on me without the math that the number was that bad. I guess I have some cipherin' to do.

I'll start compling and fill in as I figure them out:

(the parens to the right of the numbers are the actual NFL numbers through week 18 of years (2000) (2001) the actual years that TPF stats are based upon)


=====TPF STATS==========================+===(2000) (2001)
Total League Stats
Total Points, 43.203125
Total Yards, 676.85546875
Total Plays, 129.98828125
Total Yards Per Play, 5.20704991435526
First Downs (Pass), 21.14453125
First Downs (Run), 13.31640625
First Downs (Pen), 2.52734375
Third Down Conv, 10.859375
Third Down Att, 28.73046875
Third Down %, 0.377974167233175
Fourth Down Conv, 0.56640625
Fourth Down Att, 0.8828125
Fourth Down %, 0.641592920353982
Penalties, 10.046875
Penalty Yards, 77.02734375

League Passing Stats
Attempts, 65.0546875
Completions, 34.24609375
%, 0.526420079260238
YPA, 6.52642007926024
Yards, 424.57421875
TDs, 2.65625
INTs, 1.9765625
Sacks, 4.85546875

League Rushing Stats
Rushes, 60.078125
Yards, 252.28125
YPA, 4.19921976592978
TDs, 2.03515625
Fumbles, 3.734375
Fumbles Lost, 0.93359375

League Return Stats
Kick Returns, 7.375
Kick Return Yardage, 160.73828125
Kick Return Ave, 21.7950211864407 -- (?.??)(?.??)
Kick Return TDs, 0.01171875 -- (.025)(.017)
Punt Returns, 7.56640625
Punt Return Yardage, 71.23046875
Punt Return Ave, 9.41404233350542 -- (?.??)(?.??)
Punt Return TDs, 0.02734375 -- (?.??)(?.??)

FG Stats
FG Converted, 2.953125
FG Attempts, 3.796875
FG %, 0.777777777777778
XP converted, 4.75
XP attempted, 4.87890625
XP %, 0.973578863090472

Punting Stats
Punts, 11.21875
Punt Yards, 487.90625
Punt Ave, 43.4902506963788
Net Punting Yards, 388.2734375
Net Ave, 34.6093314763231

Defense Stats
Defense TDs, 30

BG:

I'm doing some heavy testing of stats as different builds tweak the stats. However, I only have access to the accurate numbers from 2002. If you want to help out with this, the most effective use of yoru time would be to find and report the 2000 and 2001 stats for each of the categories mentioned above.

--Ben

Not to take the wind out of your sales, but these are stats used from a build made last week (the one Joe used for his thread). The stats have changed numerous times based on BETA feedback in the past week. The best case may be to wait until the game is released and then look at the numbers. Anything discovered now will have little value as the issues may already be fixed.

I will have these reports with the released game, so anyone will be able to study them on the full version.

Arlie

Originally posted by SkyDog
BG:

I'm doing some heavy testing of stats as different builds tweak the stats. However, I only have access to the accurate numbers from 2002. If you want to help out with this, the most effective use of yoru time would be to find and report the 2000 and 2001 stats for each of the categories mentioned above.

--Ben

Good idea. I'll tackle 2000-1. I have a question on what some of their numbers are. Some seem to be per game averages, and others seem to be per incident averages.

Originally posted by SkyDog
FROM: Ben Lewis
TO: Arlie Rahn and Joe Stallings
RE: TPF

Arlie and Joe:

Don't worry about any of the engine tweaks or bug fixes that the beta team has suggested. Y'all should focus more on getting cool-looking screenshots out. That sounds like a much more cost-effective use of your time, because people have shown themselves to be willing to go nuts over the screen shots, while widely ignoring the stats engine information that you posted in that thread, despite the fact that there were at least a dozen stats in that list that were very far from reality. But really, it doesn't appear that you need to worry about fixing that stuff, since very few people commented on it, or even bothered to check if the numbers were accurate. Heck, I'd wager that very few people even bothered to look at the numbers, because the screen shots are a lot more pretty. For heaven's sake, give the people what they want--pretty screens!

--Ben

One thing to consider is that Arlie does the code, engine, and AI, Joe does the screens and promotion, and that is what he's doing while posting the screens. Arlie's not on the forums that often, because he's doing the tweaking, such as the recent stats analysis (thanks Ben), the various other AI tweaks and bug fixes; Joe's finishing the last few screens and interface tweaks and sharing some of the work he's done, while building the PR for the games release.

winds slowing... bringing the BoneTiki IV to a complete ... halt.

Originally posted by Bonegavel
winds slowing... bringing the BoneTiki IV to a complete ... halt. Nooooooooo....give me those 2000-2001 numbers!

Originally posted by ScottVib
One thing to consider is that Arlie does the code, engine, and AI, Joe does the screens and promotion, and that is what he's doing while posting the screens. Arlie's not on the forums that often, because he's doing the tweaking, such as the recent stats analysis (thanks Ben), the various other AI tweaks and bug fixes; Joe's finishing the last few screens and interface tweaks and sharing some of the work he's done, while building the PR for the games release. Oh, I know that. I was just ranting about the response, not Joe or Arlie.

--Ben

SkyDog, did .400 know what they were getting when they asked you to BetaTest? :D

I was hoping that Loose Cannon was an anagram of Ben Lewis SkyDog, but all I could come up with is: BEND KEY WIG LOSS

The 2000 and 2001 numbers may still be on ESPN, when I gathered the original batch of verification stats I grabbed them from ESPN. It's just a simple open in Excel on all those tables and then do some simple preprocessing to put them in the form for the spreadsheet analysis and comparison.

Ben, I figured the rant was more directed towards the fan reaction on the forums, but also figured we should point out that the developers themselves are actually working on the game and that the focus isn't just on the pretty pictures being provided to the fans, but the stuff that is "under the hood".

Originally posted by Bonegavel
SkyDog, did .400 know what they were getting when they asked you to BetaTest? :D

Yes some detailed good work, that's why we invited him :p

Originally posted by ScottVib
Ben, I figured the rant was more directed towards the fan reaction on the forums, but also figured we should point out that the developers themselves are actually working on the game and that the focus isn't just on the pretty pictures being provided to the fans, but the stuff that is "under the hood". Good point. I was trying to subtly do that, but I guess the direct approach is good too. :p

Originally posted by ScottVib
Yes some detailed good work, that's why we invited him :p

But you must admit that the nude pics put him over the top.

Originally posted by Arles
I will have these reports with the released game, so anyone will be able to study them on the full version.

Arlie

This is good news Arlie. I was hoping that they would be released with the game.

Originally posted by SkyDog
FROM: Ben Lewis
TO: Arlie Rahn and Joe Stallings
RE: TPF

Arlie and Joe:

Don't worry about any of the engine tweaks or bug fixes that the beta team has suggested. Y'all should focus more on getting cool-looking screenshots out. That sounds like a much more cost-effective use of your time, because people have shown themselves to be willing to go nuts over the screen shots, while widely ignoring the stats engine information that you posted in that thread, despite the fact that there were at least a dozen stats in that list that were very far from reality. But really, it doesn't appear that you need to worry about fixing that stuff, since very few people commented on it, or even bothered to check if the numbers were accurate. Heck, I'd wager that very few people even bothered to look at the numbers, because the screen shots are a lot more pretty. For heaven's sake, give the people what they want--pretty screens!

--Ben

FYI, I noticed certain flaws but like you have stated many times when someone else has mentioned flaws...its still in beta.

Some are going wild over the screen shots because they are hungry for whatever they can get not just becasue they look great. Screen shots are fine and dandy but information is what I am after. In fact, while reading other threads that have contained screen shots, I have seen people comment on flaws or "unbalanced" stats. Not everyone has an eye to catch things like what you and some others caught (like myself). Stats are a big thing to me. If there is anything that bothers me the most in a sim, its unbalanced stats. Because thats the heart of the sim engine. It *almost* sounds like you were upset that they released these screen shots :) . I know that you weren't but it sounded like it to me after reading your post. My feeling is, Joe was just marketing the game.

Edit-spelling

I know I'm not the only one getting a little excited about this game.

/looks at maximus
/waves

:)

Seriously though, I couldn't really get into FOF4 because I never really felt a connection with any of my players because it was pretty much just numbers. Hopefully this will blend a nice sim engine in with some fluff. ;)

I agree with most who posted on your comments Ben, I know with you on the Beta team I don't need to worry about numbers. I honestly haven't cared up to this point because I know you know numbers better than most.

Yes, the screenies look good, but after release is what I am looking to read from the football guru's on here about stat accuracy. I can already get stat accuracy with FOF 2004, let me salvate on some pretty artwork. :) Remember, I'm the goof who came out with 7 logo sets for a 35X35 graphic! ;)


Todd

Originally posted by illinifan999
Seriously though, I couldn't really get into FOF4 because I never really felt a connection with any of my players because it was pretty much just numbers. Hopefully this will blend a nice sim engine in with some fluff. ;)

I tend to agree with this, one of the reasons I enjoy CM so much is that it immerses me inside the game world, and makes me feel like I am involved with more than just numbers. FOF/TCY has never done this for me. It could be the most accurate sim engine in the world but if it doesn't make me feel INVOLVED in it, then it won't be very much fun for me.

Now, this is not to say that, if the stats are whack and provide crazy results, I would be happy; quite the opposite. But if it provides a healthy balance of quality stats/sim engine, with some of the 'fluff' that adds to the immersion factor, then count me in.

^^^ - what he said. Count me in as well.

Totally agree with ice4277. I want a game that makes me as mad as the CM series has done time and time again :)

Originally posted by illinifan999

Seriously though, I couldn't really get into FOF4 because I never really felt a connection with any of my players because it was pretty much just numbers. Hopefully this will blend a nice sim engine in with some fluff. ;)

Ditto.

One thing the beta testers shouldn't forget when looking at those raw numbers (stats) is that those are "league totals and averages". Just because they line up with real life numbers, doesn't mean that the sim engine is totally accurate. What about the deviation between the players? Does it reach that average with everybody relatively close to the average?

For example, Total Yards Per Play: 5.20704991435526

Wouldn't that be a problem if every player in the league had that exact same average (unlikely, but hopefully you get the point). Basically, there should be as much discreptancy (deviation) between the players' numbers that eventually lead to those averages (ie. big enough spread between good players and bad players). Last thing I want to see is, all the league averages and totals match up, but everybody in the league has relatively the same average. I'd like the deviation between the players to match up with real life as well. Not just league totals.

Originally posted by castorius
One thing the beta testers shouldn't forget when looking at those raw numbers (stats) is that those are "league totals and averages". Just because they line up with real life numbers, doesn't mean that the sim engine is totally accurate. What about the deviation between the players? Does it reach that average with everybody relatively close to the average?

For example, Total Yards Per Play: 5.20704991435526

Wouldn't that be a problem if every player in the league had that exact same average (unlikely, but hopefully you get the point). Basically, there should be as much discreptancy (deviation) between the players' numbers that eventually lead to those averages (ie. big enough spread between good players and bad players). Last thing I want to see is, all the league averages and totals match up, but everybody in the league has relatively the same average. I'd like the deviation between the players to match up with real life as well. Not just league totals. I'm definitely aware of this.