I was reading the discussion in the TPF Review thread, and having a conversation with Arlie about PBP. I'm curious how important it is to people. Respond to the poll, and post your comments.

--Ben

For me, it is completely irrelevant. The only time I've looked at the FOF PBP is in the demo, since all you can really do is call plays. I don't think I've ever even looked at the PBP in TPF.

It would be nice, but I'd like about 1000 other things first. I think it's almost better when it's bare-bones, because you can use your imagination a bit more.

Very important.

I am the type that will be taking at least two months to sim one season. I get really involved in my play calling and when the play finally unfolds, I like to have theat added drama. I will be calling my own plays too. SkyDog, how does Arlie feel about it per your conversation with him?

Zero importance. I was somewhat disheartened by the review of TPF talking about the PBP w/ crowd noise and whatnot. All I could think was that if they spent a lot of time putting that together, it took away from time spent working on the stuff that actually matters.

Originally posted by maximus
I am the type that will be taking at least two months to sim one season.

Wow, are you serious? If I moved at that pace, I wouldn't have really gotten anywhere by the time the next version of the game came out. I probably play 1 season per session, watching only playoff games on PBP (and at a pretty rapid pace).

Originally posted by maximus
SkyDog, how does Arlie feel about it per your conversation with him? Well, based on the review comments, he put a good amount of time into it, so from that it is easy to deduce that he thinks it has some value. He is curious to see the results of this poll, just like me.

Originally posted by cthomer5000
Wow, are you serious? If I moved at that pace, I wouldn't have really gotten anywhere by the time the next version of the game came out. I probably play 1 season per session, watching only playoff games on PBP (and at a pretty rapid pace).

LOL, ya, I am serious. I don't know why but what is interesting to me is the player development and player/team stats. I go through all the stats for every player after every game. :) Sounds crazy...I know. I like to get the feeling that I know certain player by the time they are in the prime. That is why retired player stats are so important to me.

To me, it is one of those things where I could do without it, but, if done properly (whatever that means), I would most likely jump in and call plays for every game.

As it is now, the PbP in FOF makes it such that I quick sim every game. I called plays in a few games and just couldn't get into it.

I tend to prefer being a GM in sports sims rather than a coach. That tends to make PBP irrelevant most of the time. I can see the point of view of the 'coaches' though in wanting some more immersion factor during the games.

I tend to like the feel of CM3 that had limited play by play, but sometimes really allowed some tension to build through the sporadic display of key events.

Let me just say this...

as a former Madden player and FBpro player, the coaching part of the games were fun to me. Not really *seeing* the play turn out visually but *seeing* the play turn out as in terms of how well (or not) you called the play. I take great pride in my coaching abilities...... or lack thereof :)

Originally posted by maximus
That is why retired player stats are so important to me. Why???? At that pace, you're not gonna have anyone retire! ;)

With all of the stats testing and analyzing of booms/busts that I've done with FOF2004 (and I've done a LOT on both fronts), I've still played 19 seasons of a serious career in the 22 days since it has been released, and I didn't start that career until 2 or 3 days after the release. I'm averaging about a season per day, even with all of the distractions. I'd imagine that I'll average at least 2 per day during the holidays.

Im now in the FA period of 2024, so whatever that pace works out to is how quickly I've been moving. It might average to nearly 1 season per day... but I'd say I only play 2-3 sessions per week. (usually getting one nice 4+ hour session in on the weekend).

lol...

Well, in FOF4 I did manage about 1 season per 2 weeks because I didn't call my own plays.

I play the game similar to cthomer. I watch the play by play during playoff games I am involved in (but don't call plays.)

I absolutely live and die with the information I get from FOF via PBP - I guess I am just interested in the results - and that is what you get with FOF. The imagination fills in sufficiently...

Originally posted by Subby
The imagination fills in sufficiently...

It sure does, doesn't it. Madden eat your heart out. :D

Since I don't call plays and hardly ever go to the scoreboard, I have to say that PBP is of no relevance to me and the way I like to play.

i really enjoy the strategy behind playcalling, and it seems that jim has put a lot of effort into realistic play results. i want to run that te fly pattern against cover 2 and break it big. anything that enhances the playcalling-gamewatching experience i fully support. sound effects might be a bit over the top, though, and i think i'd turn the option off if i heard the same thing too many times.

what i like most is being able to draft a stud, then fully use his abilities in my coaching decisions. it helps me bond with my draftees. playcalling definitely helps my immersion more than just simming.

I watch the PBP for results, but not the drama.

Edit: Actually, more specifically - I read through the generated game logs; basically.

I voted "somewhat", while the added pbp to TPF is nice I honestly don't know how often I will use the "in game" options. I'm sure I will some but hard to know.

I'm not really that interested, I quick sim all my games.

Originally posted by maximus
LOL, ya, I am serious. I don't know why but what is interesting to me is the player development and player/team stats. I go through all the stats for every player after every game. :) Sounds crazy...I know. I like to get the feeling that I know certain player by the time they are in the prime. That is why retired player stats are so important to me.

i do the same thing. i JUST finished a season i started this summer (FOF4). finally had my amateur draft for season 2 last night.

I enjoy the PBP I've seen in TPF. I play out most of my games, and it just adds to the feel. I can see the stuff happening as I watch the PBP. It also kind of helps me with my play-calling...if a RB got stuffed in the backfield, it makes me think that the linebackers are creeping up. Time to go play-action, baby!

Anyway, I wouldn't say it's the most important thing in the game, but in an in-game environment, it's something I look forward to.

-John

Very important to me. Especially things like who blocks or gives up sacks in certain situations. I call my own plays so this helps me with my game plan.

Originally posted by maximus
LOL, ya, I am serious. I don't know why but what is interesting to me is the player development and player/team stats. I go through all the stats for every player after every game. :) Sounds crazy...I know. I like to get the feeling that I know certain player by the time they are in the prime. That is why retired player stats are so important to me.

I'm with you Maximus! I do the same thing.

I only finished 9 or 10 seasons in FOF2, and 20 seasons in TCY (so far).

I love reviewing the stats of each player after each game, and the decisions regarding who to start next game based on performance, and match-ups versus the talent on our upcoming opponent's roster. And "getting to know" the players on my roster is a huge part of the enjoyment of the game for me.

I'd love to see the PBP developed much more than it is now.

Lets see, the things I like most about text sims:

1) offseason moves, team building
2) watching a player develop over a career
3) watching a league develop over the course of many seasons

Play by play is of very little use to me.

TroyF

If the engine is solid then a really good pbp would throw up a huge difference between FOF and TPF and no matter how much people say how they hate eye candy and the like TPF would have an edge over FOF.

Of course, if the engine sucks then pbp matters for nothing.

Aside from testing out the play calling every so oftan in FOF, I've never watched the play by play.

But to be honest, I'm not sure if that is because that's not the way I play games like these, or if that is because that's not the way FOF is intended to play.

When I played FBPro, I remember just calling the plays and watching the action. But without all of the salary cap and stuff, that's how the game was intened to be played (playing it or coaching it).

So if a text sim comes out that is intended to play as a coaching game (or GM & Coach), rather than just a GM game (which is really what FOF is), I can see myself getting into the play-by-play and play calling again.

Originally posted by mattwakeman
Of course, if the engine sucks then pbp matters for nothing.

Boy, isn't this the truth. :) A strong sim engine is needed, thats for sure. Having said that, from what I have heard from about 4 different beta testers is that we are in for a real nice suprise. Without going into detail with me since they are under a NDA, they did express that TPF is a very immersive football sim.

Your second option, currently in leading the voting, was worded precisely the way I feel.

PBP would be nice. The way FOF does it now just dow interest me much. Sometimes I'll play out a game or something but I like sims usually because I dont have to play them out. If I wanted to do that I'd play some Madden.

Originally posted by mattwakeman
If the engine is solid then a really good pbp would throw up a huge difference between FOF and TPF and no matter how much people say how they hate eye candy and the like TPF would have an edge over FOF.

Of course, if the engine sucks then pbp matters for nothing.
Yeah except the PBP that was "previewed" in the review was nothing special and barely any better than FOF.

And please expand on the "huge difference" that would exist between FOF and TPF were TPF to have a "solid engine."

Originally posted by mattwakeman
If the engine is solid then a really good pbp would throw up a huge difference between FOF and TPF and no matter how much people say how they hate eye candy and the like TPF would have an edge over FOF.

Of course, if the engine sucks then pbp matters for nothing.

Or, if you don't even see PbP because you quick sim every game, then it means nothing as well.

Regardless of all of the eye candy, and even assuming TPF had a game engine on par with FOF, for me, FOF would have the edge because I can play TCY at the same time and watch future pros develop in college, then import them into the pro game. Now THAT'S an edge.

I usually "watch" my games on the scoreboard view, but at the highest speed, just following the score and the "flow" of the game. I'll slow it down if it gets close in the 4th quarter, but I will still very rarely read the PBP and instead follow along with the down and distance displays.

I enjoy watching the play by play of the games in my sims. It gives me that "immersion" factor. I hardly ever call plays (I really, really suck at play calling), but I like the aspect of watching the players I sign perform on the field. I am very intrigued about the play by play in TPF because that "suspense" in the play calling is something that does appeal to me.

Is the play calling a top five feature of FOF in terms of importance to me, no. Is it something that adds to my enjoyment of the FOF gaming experience, most definitely.

Originally posted by Subby
Yeah except the PBP that was "previewed" in the review was nothing special and barely any better than FOF.

And please expand on the "huge difference" that would exist between FOF and TPF were TPF to have a "solid engine."

Right, what I meant was that if the pbp works out in a gradual sense where the play develops slowly (like a game in the CM series) then this is obviously very different to the FOF description of a play. To me this is important and IF (and of course it is a huge if) the rest of TPF stacks up to FOF (which of course is unlikely in its first incarnation) then someone who wants to buy a football text sim will be faced with a stark difference between the games.

A more detailed pbp will be more attractive to those who want to go slower. For players that like to sim many seasons in a short time of course pbp will be of little interest to them. But if the ingame of TPF is 'better' (for want of a better word. Maybe 'tense' would be a better word) and it still has a solid player development engine and sim engine then people can have the best of both worlds.

I think the pbp is perfect in fof as is. I never look at it during games, but I do sometimes look at the game logs after games. I would actually loose interest and probably never check them if the game log format was changed to be "more dramatic."

Originally posted by SkyDog
Why???? At that pace, you're not gonna have anyone retire! ;)

With all of the stats testing and analyzing of booms/busts that I've done with FOF2004 (and I've done a LOT on both fronts), I've still played 19 seasons of a serious career in the 22 days since it has been released, and I didn't start that career until 2 or 3 days after the release. I'm averaging about a season per day, even with all of the distractions. I'd imagine that I'll average at least 2 per day during the holidays.


I gameplan each game and then watch the pbp. This will be a huge advantage to tpf for the way I like to play.

A lot of you guys play like SkyDog mentions here and if that's what you like more power to you but I couldn't even begin to enjoy the game this way. How do you get to know your players? Your team? Enjoy the moment when you do accomplish
something big?

Too me it's not how fast I can push through the seasons but it's about enjoying the ride:) SkyDog says at that pace nobody will ever retire well.... that's why it's important to some of us solo players to be able to import from the old version to the new version.

Originally posted by Sweed
Too me it's not how fast I can push through the seasons but it's about enjoying the ride:) SkyDog says at that pace nobody will ever retire well.... that's why it's important to some of us solo players to be able to import from the old version to the new version.

Hey, someone who feels the way I do. :)

I went with the somewhat important option. I dont care about sound or anything like that, but I do enjoy calling my own plays often. Ideally, I would call my own plays every game, but I genearlly lack the patience to do so when I'm in a rebuilding year or when I feel like I'm playing a game in which I'm greatly outclassed or when I feel like I should crush my opponent.

Originally posted by Sweed
Too me it's not how fast I can push through the seasons but it's about enjoying the rideLOL. That makes it sound like you think Ol' SkyDog doesn't pay close attention to the details. ;)

Wow...I'm surprised that more people don't think pbp is important. To me, that is the main thing that gives a game "personality". Depending on the sport and length of schedule, I don't play out every game but I sure like to have the option to "watch" a game unfold. I doubt I would even gotten into this gaming niche if it wasn't for pbp. The first company I dealt with that had pbp was strat o matic baseball. They got to the point where you could have team specific stuff put in the game (managers, coaches, trainers). Things have come a long way since then but that really drew me to these games (as far as the computer goes...started playing sports sim board games in the 70s'). FOF is a very good game but for me, the lack of pbp is the big drawback.

I feel its important because its where you get to "know" your players. How many times have you seen a guy with somewhat bad ratings that puts up big numbers and wonder whats going on, or vice versa. I dont feel you can go by just ratings, you have to watch and see how many times a game that player makes a play. Also, the reason we all like football is because we know the players in the league. We know who we like, dislike, who is good and who isnt. This makes FA better because you are more in tune with players from around the league and know who you want to go after. Its what gives the game character, IMO.

Originally posted by SkyDog
LOL. That makes it sound like you think Ol' SkyDog doesn't pay close attention to the details. ;)

Not at all SD:) I have tried simming on occasion in ootp and just lose all feel for my team. I don't even bother to try anymore in any of my sports games. I can't, say sim a week or even a game for that matter and just look at the stats and feel like I've done something. I have to see the game to have fun. Trying to read the game log after won't do it either, I just have to have it in real time to be able to enjoy. Hell I played 4 seasons of ootp this year one game at a time:D

It is an interesting thread you startd here, hopefully we can all learn something.

I voted the middle ground... if done "right" somebody is sure to hate it! I like the PbP feature if it includes color commentary (background, history etc.), other than that it can be...

" R. Williams takes the handoff, going off the right guard, hit by D. Walker at the line of scrimmage Gains 1 yd. "

I like the way CM does it...suspensful...

SkyDog, kodos to you for this poll. It was needed. :)

Originally posted by SkyDog
For me, it is completely irrelevant. The only time I've looked at the FOF PBP is in the demo, since all you can really do is call plays. I don't think I've ever even looked at the PBP in TPF.

Same here. I feel the same way about Game Plans but I'm sure if you would create a poll, I would be vastly outnumbered, which is fine. ;)

I love CM's PbP. That being said, I also think it works for that sport. Soccer is a sequential game, there is a move, counter move, move... To me, football isn't that kind of game. Its something that happens in an instance and then is gone. I just don't feel like a sequential type of PbP (i.e. line by line) is really necessary in a football game.

When I call plays, I actually find it easier just to see if I got a first down, or 3 yards or whatever, to me it doesn't really build the drama that is inherent in a continuous sport like soccer.

Thats the problem I have with OOTP's PbP. When it jumps in for a no-hitter, its tedious to wait for the line-by-line PbP. Baseball just seems to work better when it isn't set up like that... it doesn't feel like radio PbP, it feels like tape delay PbP.

Originally posted by DolphinFan1
Very important to me. Especially things like who blocks or gives up sacks in certain situations. I call my own plays so this helps me with my game plan.

Same here.

Are you guys actually using the PBP info to make in game moves? Like if your LG gives up a sack, you will pull him...or something of that sort. I always though it was nice, even in the OOTP where Markus unintentionally mauls the english language, but it seemed to me that it was fairly cosmetic. If they say they put a large amount of time into it, it makes me even madder that customizable league sizes weren't part of it. But that's another thread altogether. I voted that it's nice, but no big deal.

Originally posted by miked
Are you guys actually using the PBP info to make in game moves? Like if your LG gives up a sack, you will pull him...or something of that sort. I always though it was nice.....


Thats what I like to do. I get a feel for my players that why. Another example of the PBP thing is that lets say my team is playing another team which has the second all time leading rusher and he is playing his last season of his career, I can actually watch him play. This is exciting to me because I am watching history in the making, esp if he is about to break the record playing me. :)

I posted this over at 400. Perhaps this has something to do with the way I play...Well, I'm just a little bit older (and probably a little bit wiser...;)) than Joe. I'll be 35 in three weeks. Probably a big part of my desire to get through seasons quickly is that I spent SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much time going through every single football play in FBPro, and every single inning of every season in Microleague and Strat-O-Matic. I probably played through 20 or 30 162-game seasons in Strat, managing every game. :blink: I called every single play in 2 or 3 versions of FPS FB Pro, probably 15 or 20 seasons. At the time Baseball Mogul came out, I had been making a habit of calling Strat-O-Matic at least twice a year and asking if they were ever going to make a game that projected players forward into the future. I was SO ready for Mogul and FOF.

Actually, dating back to my first experience with a dice-and-cards sport game, Statis Pro Major League Baseball, back in 1978, I spent nearly 20 years playing sports sims in which the only option that worked well was playing one game at a time. True career play has only been around for a little over 5 years. Maybe I was just flat-out burned out on game-by-game, play-by-play type play. Just a thought.Compared to how long I spent playing one-season games, career play is still quite new to me.

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
Imagine, in the third quarter, after you give up a sack a color commentator says something like: "LT Steve Jones has been getting bull-rushed by RDE Jim Smith all game. He's just not strong enough to stop the massive pass rusher."

There's not much in playcalling that intrigues me... but let me take this example a step further. We might get there yet.

Let me rephrase this kind of feedback a little bit - what if you got an in-game message something like this:

Your offensive coordinator brings you this message: "LT Steve Jones has been getting bull-rushed by RDE Jim Smith all game. He's just not strong enough to stop the massive pass rusher."

He recommends that you alter your base blocking scheme, to commit either the TE or FB to cover the rushing DE on the right side. Doing so will reduce your outlet pass options, and will reduce blocking in other areas along the offensive line.

Do you want to make this adjustment to your base blocking scheme?

/query for user input/



Now... this, in my mind, might push the game a shade beyond playcalling and into something that might really be a whole new dimension of game. Getting into more fundamental shifts in the entire scheme, rather than just calling plays, getting input, lather, rinse, repeat. (No offense intended against those who do this)

Just something to toss out there...

Originally posted by QuikSand
Your offensive coordinator brings you this message: "LT Steve Jones has been getting bull-rushed by RDE Jim Smith all game. He's just not strong enough to stop the massive pass rusher."

He recommends that you alter your base blocking scheme, to commit either the TE or FB to cover the rushing DE on the right side. Doing so will reduce your outlet pass options, and will reduce blocking in other areas along the offensive line.

Do you want to make this adjustment to your base blocking scheme?

/query for user input/
SCHWING!!! Now THIS would interest me!

>this, in my mind, might push the game a shade beyond playcalling and into something that might really be a whole new dimension of game.

I think this illustrates the difference between what you guys call the "text sim" and the UK's "management game" which are always assumed to be the same. From the point of view of the second of these, I would see an interactive pbp the very FIRST dimension of the game. Failing to challenge the user to match his play calling to the qualities of his players and the progress of the game and omitting all the "tactical" stuff (as distinct from the "strategic") that goes with this is beyond comprehension. Until you have something of what you describe, QS, you only have half a game for me which, I guess, is why my involvement with these games is one of interest rather than enthusiasm.

I did not use PBP much in single player. I tried a few times, but I just wanted to get through seasons and see how players develop.

Now that I'm in a multiplayer league, I use it for EVERY game. The pace in multiplayer is slower (everyone is actually taking time to adjust gameplans and the like), and the suspense of watching the game unfold without knowing the score ahead of time is just great. NOTE: I'm using 3ric's viewer which is awesome...

Case in point: Week 1 of 2003, my Patriots against another coach's Bills. Rainy game, the great equalizer, for which I am grateful. Early part of the game is the Bills moving the ball, with my defense keeping me in the game by holding him to field goals, returning a pick for a TD, and setting up another TD with a fumble recovery. Late in the 4th quarter, score is 21-16 Pats.

Bledsoe gets the ball back for the Bills, and I'm biting my nails with that 5 point lead. Short pass completed, sack, sack, and all of a sudden its 4th down with 21 yards to go. Bledsoe fires a 23-yard completion, my jaw drops, and I can just see the rally coming. Bledsoe gets hot, Bills drive deep into my territory, 2 minute warning comes and goes (and I've only had one solid offensive drive all game), and the end is near.

Bledsoe drops back to pass, blitz comes, Bledsoe gets hit, drops the ball, and Richard Seymour picks it up and rumbles 63 yards for the TD the other way.

Final score: Pats 28, Bills 16.

Of course I watch the play-by-play. Seeing "Seymour 63 yard fumble return" in the box score just doesn't do it for me. You'd never see the 23-yard completion on 4th-and-21, for example.

With the slower pace of multiplayer, you are missing out big time if you aren't watching the games go by. And it only takes 10 or 15 minutes to watch the whole game.

I play these games from a GM, not coach perspective. I like to watch my league develop a history, watch players go through college, into the pros, and make the hall of fame. I could think of nothing more excruciating than watching a full season of full play-by-play games in a text sim.

I will skim through game logs sometimes, and read box scores, but that's about it.

Ideally, I'd love to see something like CM4/CM 03-04's 2D Match Engine, or XOR's ancient DOS football game done for a game like FOF or TPF.

Even OOTP, which does this better than any text sim, bores me to tears because the phrases are repeated so frequently.

This is a football game, right? If what happens in the game is not important, you might as well be playing some business simulator. I like what Mac said, "I would see an interactive pbp the very FIRST dimension of the game. Failing to challenge the user to match his play calling to the qualities of his players and the progress of the game and omitting all the "tactical" stuff (as distinct from the "strategic") that goes with this is beyond comprehension."

Originally posted by GrantDawg
This is a football game, right? If what happens in the game is not important, you might as well be playing some business simulator. I knew this thread went get G-Dawg's ire up once he saw it. ;) We've had this conversation face-to-face more than once.

Schwing?

Originally posted by Neuqua
Schwing? ;)

I play out every game, but I do it rather quickly, so I'm not concerned about having a lot of flowery prose in the play-by-play.

One thing I don't like about FOF, and I've complained to Jim about this, is the fact that he gives the players' uniform numbers in the play-by-play. I'd just like to quickly see the name of the ball carrier, who made the tackle, and the yardage gained on the play. In my opinion, the uniform numbers are irrevelant and make it hard to quickly pick out the yardage gained.

For example, "32 Smith gets the carry and is tackled by 21 Jones for a gain of 11 yards. Great block by 48 Taylor."

It should be more like a radio broadcast - you don't hear pbp anouncers give the players uniform numbers every play like that. It seems like a small thing, but it really is irritating if you play out your games (at least for me).

Also, it would also be nice if certain key words were bolded, like "touchdown", "fumble", "intercepted". "blocked", etc. in order to make them stand out more.

Originally posted by GrantDawg
This is a football game, right? If what happens in the game is not important, you might as well be playing some business simulator. I like what Mac said, "I would see an interactive pbp the very FIRST dimension of the game. Failing to challenge the user to match his play calling to the qualities of his players and the progress of the game and omitting all the "tactical" stuff (as distinct from the "strategic") that goes with this is beyond comprehension."

I obviously have a different perspective. It is "Front Office" Football, is it not? The games are not the ends to the means by the byproduct of multiple factors. On any given Sunday, there are not surefire predictions as to whether you will win or lose, regardless if you pbp or just fast sim. You can increase the probability of success by being better in more areas than your opponents but again, there are no single formula to do that. So it does come down to personal preference. If you want to play a game by pbp, that's fine. If you want to get through the regular season as quickly and painless as possible (in my case), than that's fine as well. Don't make the mistake in assuming that all of the details that are presented including pbp is essential. All you want in the end is a winning score of 43-6 or a winning season of 12-4. The rest are just details and a matter of personal preference.

What I like to do is put the team together through the draft and free agency and watch closely each year how my team and the other teams perform on the field, so although I don't coach I watch all of my team's games closely and watch many of the others (it takes me a month or more to sim a season). So for me, pbp is very important and I would love to see an expanded, diverse, radio-style pbp. I've extensively played every version of FOF since its first installment, but if TPF or some other career football sim can put together a great pbp system then I can see myself switching (nudge nudge).

Actually, this is a very interesting poll, and it explains why improving FOF's pbp has never been a huge priority for Jim (and apparently rightly so).

Originally posted by yabanci
Actually, this is a very interesting poll, and it explains why improving FOF's pbp has never been a huge priority for Jim (and apparently rightly so).

Why? So far 60% of respondants said the pbp is somewhat important to very important.

Originally posted by JimboJ
Why? So far 60% of respondants said the pbp is somewhat important to very important.

Or another way of reading the poll results is that a game that has the depth of FOF in terms of player development and all of the rest of it AND has a great pbp interface would be of interest to every single person that has voted. The same thing could not then be said of FOF.

But hey, we shall wait and see...

I haven't read every post, so I just might be parroting someone. To me you have two types of players from what I've seen so far. You have the coaches that play by play is important. The tatical aspect of games, the matchups, all that. Then you have the GM's. People who run the team, want the best overall product on the field. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to play the game, it just depends on which player you are.

Me personally, every year I say I'm going to spend more time doing the play by play thing (This is the 4th version I've got) And every year, after about 2 days to 2 weeks, I'm simming through games and getting to the "fun stuff", the season end stuff. But I'm not sure if there was a PBP that was more "spicy" that I wouldn't spend more time with it. I'm not saying I dislike the way FOF is done, but to me if I wanted all that PBP, I'm going to play Madden. Usually, if I want game type stuff, I play Madden. If I want to build a team and make it the best I can, I play FOF, simple as that. It would be interesting to see. The only text based sim game I've done play by play on much was OOTP 4. But I also had another season I just simmed through and played GM. Just my two cent's, not that it means a whole hell of alot

Originally posted by SkyDog
Compared to how long I spent playing one-season games, career play is still quite new to me.

Well said. My first Strat-O-matic season was with the 1963 cards and my first APBA football was the 1964 season. Both of these are up in my attic now.

About the only time I check th PBP is when one of my backups plays more than I expected and the front line guy isn't hurt after the game. Or when --all too often-- my 90 rated injury prone star finally comes off the inactive list from last season's injury, and goes down for another season after 1 or 2 plays. I like to see if he actually did anything on the play (not ever) or if the injury was randomly indlicted, like the sniper Malvo. No reason, just take the poor bastard down again.

Originally posted by JimboJ
Why? So far 60% of respondants said the pbp is somewhat important to very important.

or conversely, 64% say it is irrelevant to somewhat important to them... numbers are a beautiful thing.

And the way the poll reads, it leaves open to interpretation what it means. It doesn't distinguish between flowery prose or just putting something up there, just how often you look at it.

Originally posted by JimboJ
One thing I don't like about FOF, and I've complained to Jim about this, is the fact that he gives the players' uniform numbers in the play-by-play. I'd just like to quickly see the name of the ball carrier, who made the tackle, and the yardage gained on the play. In my opinion, the uniform numbers are irrevelant and make it hard to quickly pick out the yardage gained.

Try 3ric's FOF2k4 viewer. He strips it down to its essentials pretty nicely.

I'm a little surprised by the number that actually care about PBP. If I'm not mistaken, we had a poll a some time ago concerning how many people actually play these types of games through or just quick sim them and it was overwhelmingly in favor of quick sims. Of course, if you think about it people who care about PBP would probably be more likely to respond to this poll and folks who quick sim games would have been more likely to respond to the previous poll because of the concerns at the time. I believe some were concerned about Jim spending time on PBP issues vs more of the "front office" additions that many of us wanted. Now with the game being developed further in many aspects, some of the lesser issues from the past begin to move up the priority list. For me, PBP still is pretty low on the list though and I voted the second option.

Originally posted by Bee
I'm a little surprised by the number that actually care about PBP. If I'm not mistaken, we had a poll a some time ago concerning how many people actually play these types of games through or just quick sim them and it was overwhelmingly in favor of quick sims.

As I mentioned in my post, what changed for me was multiplayer. With the slower pace, actually watching the games becomes more feasible and easier to integrate into my regular play style, and it's opened up a whole new level of immersion.

bumping for the ones that haven't seen this yet.

Originally posted by QuikSand
There's not much in playcalling that intrigues me... but let me take this example a step further. We might get there yet.

Let me rephrase this kind of feedback a little bit - what if you got an in-game message something like this:

Your offensive coordinator brings you this message: "LT Steve Jones has been getting bull-rushed by RDE Jim Smith all game. He's just not strong enough to stop the massive pass rusher."

He recommends that you alter your base blocking scheme, to commit either the TE or FB to cover the rushing DE on the right side. Doing so will reduce your outlet pass options, and will reduce blocking in other areas along the offensive line.

Do you want to make this adjustment to your base blocking scheme?

/query for user input/



IIRC, I think OOTP has something along these lines where you can tell the engine to stop play and bring you into a game when something momentus is happening (e.g., X number of home runs, 9th inning of a no hitter etc). Doesn't seem like to far of a stretch to have FOF do similar things.

Set the game to stop and ask when:

X number of sacks
X number of ints
X number of fumbles...
and so on and so on.

Yes, I'm aware of the OOTP stuff - but I have the sense that it is designed for "dramatic moments" (which baseball fans have to take when they can get).

I've given this a good deal of thought... and I think there's really something here. It would amount (as I see it) to something much less hands-on than actually calling all the plays - but rather sort of "calling the game."

The game woudl give you sufficient feedback, in one way or another, for you to essentially make some wholesale changes to the system you're running. Like the blocking shift I used in the example above... or maybe switching from predominantly man to zone (or vice versa)... or deciding to go with a "two-minute" attack for a period of time... or that sort of thing.

I, personally, have very little interest in calling plays one at a time. I've done it before with lots of other games, I understand what it's all about, and I don't want to do it in my text sim.

But, if there were a way for me to watch/follow the game, and just have some general hand from time to time in how things are going... you might actually get me interested in the in-game stuff. Give me a chance to make four or five decisions during the course of the game (rather than scores of them) and it might be a better balance for many of the "no thanks" crowd from this poll.

I'm intriguied... will stew on it some more...

Originally posted by QuikSand
Yes, I'm aware of the OOTP stuff - but I have the sense that it is designed for "dramatic moments" (which baseball fans have to take when they can get).

I've given this a good deal of thought... and I think there's really something here. It would amount (as I see it) to something much less hands-on than actually calling all the plays - but rather sort of "calling the game."

The game woudl give you sufficient feedback, in one way or another, for you to essentially make some wholesale changes to the system you're running. Like the blocking shift I used in the example above... or maybe switching from predominantly man to zone (or vice versa)... or deciding to go with a "two-minute" attack for a period of time... or that sort of thing.

I, personally, have very little interest in calling plays one at a time. I've done it before with lots of other games, I understand what it's all about, and I don't want to do it in my text sim.

But, if there were a way for me to watch/follow the game, and just have some general hand from time to time in how things are going... you might actually get me interested in the in-game stuff. Give me a chance to make four or five decisions during the course of the game (rather than scores of them) and it might be a better balance for many of the "no thanks" crowd from this poll.

I'm intriguied... will stew on it some more... I'm in the same camp as Quik. Calling 130ish (or even 65ish if I just did offense or defense) plays isn't what I want to do, but making a small handful of in-game decisions would almost definitely pull me in.

Probably the easiest thing to start with would be to add some halftime adjustments. I can't count the number of games were my running game(or passing game) just wasn't working and I wanted to throw the ball more. Maybe something as simple as:

Throw more or less
Double team oppenents leading sacker more or less
Double coverage top reciever more or less
Blitz %

The the computer could alter the game plans and go from there. Maybe the AI could even do small adjustments as well :)