Is it just me or do other managers/supervisors have a hard time getting their employees to work on time???

Effing government workers.

Thanks.. I'm late

depends. i think it's just hard coded into some people, either they care about being on time or they don't. all the discipline in the world won't change the ones who are always late.

I've specifically passed up jobs that would pay me more money in the last four or five years because they'd require me to show up at work at a specific time.

I'd rather take less money and work a job where I can show up anywhere between 7-10AM and leave anywhere between 3-6PM and not have anyone bat an eye. But that's the culture in my IT office, where we're project based, not providing direct support to customer-facing units.

But I work for the government (sort-of...I work for state university, which is pretty much the same deal.)

Is it just me or do other managers/supervisors have a hard time getting their employees to work on time??? Effing government workers.

Much of the private sector has the same problem, so it definitely isn't a gov't thing. If anything, I suspect it's actually better than average with government jobs.

I have the habit of showing up too early. The people who show up late have to be getting fired right? I don't think I would tolerate someone being consistently late, its a sign of disrespect.

When I had to get to work at a certain time, it was easy. But now that it's "most people get to work around 8 but nobody really cares" it's actually harder to get in there in the morning. I guess I need structure.

The people who show up late have to be getting fired right?

Depends on the office/job/environment but in some cases it's simply more trouble to jump through the hoops to fire someone than it is to deal with perpetual tardiness.

Depends on the office/job/environment but in some cases it's simply more trouble to jump through the hoops to fire someone than it is to deal with perpetual tardiness.

And depending on the job it may not matter what time(within reason) they arrive. If they get the job done I'd rather have them than try to find someone who is both punctual and good at the job.

But then again I've made actors cry for showing up late to rehearsal, so maybe I'm not the best judge.

The chronically 20 or 30 minute early people are almost as annoying. Not like they would come in early so you can leave early either. They just like to walk around.

I cannot stand the people who show up WAYYYY early and walk around letting everyone know how early they are everyday.

Congrats, you hate your wife and kids and want to get out of your house faster than I do. You still suck at your job.

Haha, this thread is quickly getting derailed. I also agree, I hate the workers who stay super late every day and consider themselves better than everybody else who left on time. They're not subtle about it either, you get emails at 10pm from them, and the next morning they're whining about how tired they are because they worked until midnight.

I prefer to get my job done as quickly as possible so I can leave on time. I'd rather enjoy my evenings with my family than be stuck in the office for MORE HOURS than required. I already spend more hours with my co-workers than I do with my family and friends combined.

Wow, the whining is strong in this one. Who fucking cares what hours other people work? Are you that insecure?

If you are speaking as a customer fine, but if a co-worker's habits are bothering you that much maybe you should take a look at your priorities.

wow, I was going to comment about how I am pretty much 30 minutes early every day, I wasn't trying to brag or anything, I just like to be early and get my shit together before I clock in instead of getting out of my car after a 40 minute drive and having to go straight to work.I had no idea that people like me are hated so much. I think I will just sneak out the back :/

I think I was not understood correctly. If you like to come to work 30 minutes early, I have no issue with that. In fact, I say bravo to your commitment to your job. I have a problem with the people that come to work 30 minutes early and use that 30 minutes to strut around and inform everyone how they are 30 minutes early every day.

Haha, this thread is quickly getting derailed. I also agree, I hate the workers who stay super late every day and consider themselves better than everybody else who left on time.

Eh, this seems like an "it depends".

If it's to get done what needs doing, they are better than you or at the least they're a better employee than you.

If it's to clean the colored tabs on the file folders with Windex, then they're just bored with everything else or perhaps suffering from OCD.

Eh, this seems like an "it depends".

If it's to get done what needs doing, they are better than you or at the least they're a better employee than you.

If it's to clean the colored tabs on the file folders with Windex, then they're just bored with everything else or perhaps suffering from OCD.

this I agree with, the only reason I come in early every day is because I need that extra 30 minutes to settle my mind from the commute , and calm my anxiety before I start work. But I just chill by my car and have a cigarette or two and try to relax.

But I just chill by my car and have a cigarette or two and try to relax.

Not seeing a problem there, 'cause I don't think you're expecting employee of the year for being early under those circumstances.

And if a crabby cantankerous SOB like me doesn't see a problem, you ought to be on pretty safe ground ;)

I always came in early. Not to work, but to get settled in. I'm one of those who just needs 20 minutes or so to get his head flowing and day set. So I get a drink, get some food, check my e-mail, forums, news, etc. Then I can begin. I consider it like stretching before a workout.

Is this the point where I brag about working at home and getting to work whenever I want?

*ducks under thrown objects*

I guess not.

I work at an office with no official start time.

Back when I started working for my first law firm in DC the accepted start time was 9:30 am. I've been in Detroit for over 5 years now and that's carried over, even if folks here tend to get in earlier. Still, no one's every complained about my being in too late.

So long as you get your work done, it doesn't really matter.

Where I work, we have a 12 hour window to work (6am-6pm) with a set core hours (mine is 8-4:30). Under our policy, we can "flex" our schedule by 30 minutes without a supervisor's permission.

Like Thursday, my neck was bothering me the night before so I slept in and came in at 8:30. I really like it because I have some flexibility.

Wow, the whining is strong in this one. Who fucking cares what hours other people work? Are you that insecure?

If you are speaking as a customer fine, but if a co-worker's habits are bothering you that much maybe you should take a look at your priorities.

The problem is that you often need those late arrivers in order to do your job. In my office specifically, its not even that you need a specific person. You need ANY designer (I am a developer) to get an urgent task done. However, none of them start to roll in until 9:30 or 10:00 (at best) and you're stuck with an angry customer.

The problem is that you often need those late arrivers in order to do your job. In my office specifically, its not even that you need a specific person. You need ANY designer (I am a developer) to get an urgent task done. However, none of them start to roll in until 9:30 or 10:00 (at best) and you're stuck with an angry customer.Which underscores the fact that assholes that anger customers by being lazy and coming in late need to be fired. Not all of them, mind you. Just fire one of them, very publically, and you wont have a problem anymore.

The problem is that you often need those late arrivers in order to do your job. In my office specifically, its not even that you need a specific person. You need ANY designer (I am a developer) to get an urgent task done. However, none of them start to roll in until 9:30 or 10:00 (at best) and you're stuck with an angry customer.

So tell your boss and don't worry about it.

The whole idea that showing up early makes you a better employee, or showing up late makes you a disrespectful person, is completely lacking in logic.

The area people live in should also be taken into account. If someone lives in a heavy traffic area, they may leave at the same time every day, but sometimes it takes twice as long to get to work. I know that because of where I live, I can leave at 6:00am every day for a week, and ever day I'll get to work at a different time.

The whole idea that showing up early makes you a better employee, or showing up late makes you a disrespectful person, is completely lacking in logic.

The area people live in should also be taken into account. If someone lives in a heavy traffic area, they may leave at the same time every day, but sometimes it takes twice as long to get to work. I know that because of where I live, I can leave at 6:00am every day for a week, and ever day I'll get to work at a different time.

Sorry but I call bullshit on the late part. If you know you live in an area with varying traffic leave early enough to be on time. If you are early, so be it, get a cup of coffee and chill. There is no excuse for being late to work on a consistent basis. It shows you are lazy, disrespectful of others time, lack initiative, and don't much care about your job.

I shouldn't have opened this thread.

Wow, the whining is strong in this one. Who fucking cares what hours other people work? Are you that insecure?

If you are speaking as a customer fine, but if a co-worker's habits are bothering you that much maybe you should take a look at your priorities.

Big +1. Just look at how populated this board is during the work day (myself included). I am pretty sure none of our employers would be super happy about our internet habits, how would you feel if a co-worker called you out on this? (Apologies to the 1 or 2 people in this thread who don't post here from work :) )

I had a problem with my employees that milk the cows showing up too early. It's important that cows get milked about the same time every day and that they have enough time in between milkings to generate more milk so I'm pretty picky about consistent timing.

Otherwise the guy who feeds the cows I allow a lot of flexibility. As long as the cows have feed in front of them, he can pretty much make his own schedule. When it was really hot and humid a few weeks ago he actually started at 2:00 AM and was done by 10:00 AM so he didn't have to work in the blistering heat. Otherwise if he wants to show up at 7 or 8 in the morning, he just needs to feed them more the day before.

Seeing some of the self-righteous whining in here, I'm glad I'm in the field I am that has core hours (10AM-5PM) and gives us the flexibility to adjust around that core. Because of my son's feeding schedule and the traffic patterns in my area, it makes more sense for me to arrive at 10AM and leave at 7PM than to try to buck traffic and be there at 8 or 9AM and double my commute time (especially coming home).

Seeing some of the self-righteous whining in here, I'm glad I'm in the field I am that has core hours (10AM-5PM) and gives us the flexibility to adjust around that core. Because of my son's feeding schedule and the traffic patterns in my area, it makes more sense for me to arrive at 10AM and leave at 7PM than to try to buck traffic and be there at 8 or 9AM and double my commute time (especially coming home).

As long as that is the culture in your place of work that is fine. I think the people who are "whining" as you put it are in a different situation. It seems to me they work in places that there are set hours and people don't abide by them.

As long as that is the culture in your place of work that is fine. I think the people who are "whining" as you put it are in a different situation. It seems to me they work in places that there are set hours and people don't abide by them.

Still not seeing why it's not whining even with a strict culture. Seriously can not even begin to understand why that would bother someone. Jealousy or insecurity? Can't think of anything else. Just do your fucking job, if their tardiness makes you look bad get it in writing and tell your boss.

I'm at a loss.

I mean if it bothers you that much I can only imagine you don't have a lot of self confidence in your ability to do well at your job.

Because in many industries, such as Lord Scarlets, it is hard to do your job unless someone is on time doing their jobs. The whole "worry about yourself" argument doesn't fly.

As for telling your boss, if your boss has half a brain in their head they are aware of the situation, however, firing someone over that isn't always a realistic option.

I personally could not care less when my co workers get to work, because I don't depend on them to do my job. I do think it reflects negatively on someone as a professional, but doesn't bother me. If I was their supervisor that would be a different story.

I think you are a pretty bright guy Jeff, and TBH I am at a loss why you are having a hard time comprehending peoples POV on this. You don't have to agree with them, but to be at a loss about their POV surprises me.

Is it just me or do other managers/supervisors have a hard time getting their employees to work on time???

Effing government workers.

That is why you have to have a strict policy that leads to dismissal.

Because in many industries, such as Lord Scarlets, it is hard to do your job unless someone is on time doing their jobs. The whole "worry about yourself" argument doesn't fly.

As for telling your boss, if your boss has half a brain in their head they are aware of the situation, however, firing someone over that isn't always a realistic option.

Many bosses, especially mid-level ones will ignore it. That's not why you are putting it in writing and informing him. If it is a real issue and not something you are blowing out of proportion then either higher level management will come down on him or his peers will come down on him, which will force action. If you told him up front AND got it in writing they will correct the problem, even if you have to remind him. I tend to find many people in management will simply appreciate that you gave them a heads up before others came down on him.

So yes, if you can't do your job just make sure people know why and what needs to be done to correct that and you are fine. I take this tact simply so I don't have to worry about other stupid shit and focus on what I can control.

And no firing them on the first offense isn't realistic, but if they are warned and cause to many issues without fixing, yes it is a very viable option.

I think you are a pretty bright guy Jeff, and TBH I am at a loss why you are having a hard time comprehending peoples POV on this. You don't have to agree with them, but to be at a loss about their POV surprises me.
Well you know what, I've had very successful career thus far and I attribute a lot of it to simply controlling what I can and not sweating what I can't. Worrying what other people are doing just takes your eyes off the ball and drops your ass in a rut.

Sorry but I call bullshit on the late part. If you know you live in an area with varying traffic leave early enough to be on time. If you are early, so be it, get a cup of coffee and chill. There is no excuse for being late to work on a consistent basis. It shows you are lazy, disrespectful of others time, lack initiative, and don't much care about your job.

You've obviously never lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. You can leave at 6am and get to work in 20 minutes on Monday, and then Tuesday it can take you an hour and a half.

My entire life in management, I've always had a very relaxed policy on "punctuality" for this very reason. Sometimes things are out of your control...and guess what? If you actually enjoy spending time with your family in the mornings (which is MORE important than work, might I remind you) and don't want to leave at 5am every day at the off chance you might hit bombastic traffic, then who am I to make up some idiotic idea in my head that you're being disrespectful. Again, that whole idea is based on broken logic. If you show up 20 minutes late, then you leave 20 minutes late. As long as you make the time up, then you're fine.

On my list of career priorities, showing up early is at the bottom. What matters is how well you do your job when you're in the office/on the clock. I'm very up-front about this with potential employers and bosses. If they have different values, then it's obviously not a good fit.

FWIW, my outlook on this is shared by most in Northern California.

I constantly struggle to get to work "on time", but then I have this: Delayed sleep phase syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome) . I am literally death warmed over first thing in the morning and I rarely get more than 5 hours of sleep a night during the week. Luckily for me, my symptoms are slowly getting better and better (I can keep a more "normal" schedule more easily) as I get older. Combine that with the fact I have mild sleep apnea (I'll bet there millions who do who are undiagnosed) and getting to work on time every day is damned near impossible.

My point is, don't judge solely based on puncuality. No doubt there are some lazy fuckers who come in late, leave early, and do little while they're at work. I'm not one of them. I'm about to get my 3rd raise when no one else in my office is even getting a COL increase.

Funny enough, one of the loudest complainers about my punctuality, who was one of those people who are always early, got fired recently for spending too much time playing games/social networking, etc on company time.

Needless to say, I'm extremely biased about judging people on punctuality, and I've love it if I could be 100% punctual, but until then, I'll get there when I get there, but you'll be getting good work out of me when I am there. I doubt I'm the only one.

On my list of career priorities, showing up early is at the bottom. I'm very up-front about this with potential employers and bosses. If they have different values, then it's obviously not a good fit.



To each is own. When I was in management if someone told me in an interview timeliness was at the bottom of their priorities the interview would be about over.

dola- for the record, I personally don't care about the people I work with and their timeliness. Just playing devils advocate because I certainly can see the point of the people who do.

Don't want to be lumped in with the "whiners"

Yeah, in my office, we can be flexible about arrivals and departures because some guys show up at 7 AM and work until 3:30 (their preference), while others roll in at 8 or 9 and work until 4 or 5 respectively. We can be casual about it because it just works out that people who can fill in for one another in a pinch are always around.

That, of course, and since we're project driven rather than customer-facing, it's extraordinarily rare when something crops up that has to be done *today*, let alone *right now*. Most of it can wait until tomorrow, the next day, or even early next week.

Truth be told, my boss just asks us to aim for being there 35-40 hours of the week, whenever that is, with the understanding that if we're working against an actual deadline and need to put in 60, we'll do that without complaining (we're all salaried). The system works for us because no one abuses it.

Well you know what, I've had very successful career thus far and I attribute a lot of it to simply controlling what I can and not sweating what I can't. Worrying what other people are doing just takes your eyes off the ball and drops your ass in a rut.

And that is great for you that you can do that, but in a lot of industries that isn't a realistic option. If the person is chronically late and your work depends on them being there, then it would be hard not to sweat it. I would imagine there is only so much you can do about it until it becomes very frustrating.

Tell the appropriate supervisors your situation and ask what you can do to keep productive while waiting on the other guy...this isn't possible at some places?

Tell the appropriate supervisors your situation and ask what you can do to keep productive while waiting on the other guy...this isn't possible at some places?

It is possible in most places. I think the point others have made and I agree with is the supervisors either don't or can't do anything about it.

If they don't or they can't then the problem is being vastly overstated because you have a bug up your ass(or you have a really unimportant job, be happy you are getting paid). If it's a real problem your boss will get pressure from people more important than you. You tell him up front so you don't have to worry about the hammer later.

yes

I constantly struggle to get to work "on time", but then I have this: Delayed sleep phase syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome) . I am literally death warmed over first thing in the morning


I think I got the same problem.

My biggest pet peeve isn't to do with getting to work on time. Instead it is when those people in California that I deal with think it is absolutely fine to schedule me for 4pm (Pacific time) conference calls. I'm always tempted to respond by suggesting the time get switched to 9am (Eastern time) the next day instead.

That is why you have to have a strict policy that leads to dismissal.

Quite true. I've written up a policy that adheres to union rules (another can of worms) and government policies. Quite simply, I have no problem if someone is running late, as long as I'm notified and it isn't a habit. I have a problem if people don't show up to work on time and they don't notify me that they're running late (for the record, I've given a guideline of 15 minutes or more). If they're running a couple minutes behind, no big deal.

As far as I see it, this is basic work stuff. Don't even get me started on when I give someone a task via email and I don't receive any response whatsoever...

FTR, I don't give all tasks via email...it's just most come down the pipe that way and sometimes I forward the email with instructions and a suspense instead of talking face-to-face.

Quite true. I've written up a policy that adheres to union rules (another can of worms) and government policies. Quite simply, I have no problem if someone is running late, as long as I'm notified and it isn't a habit. I have a problem if people don't show up to work on time and they don't notify me that they're running late (for the record, I've given a guideline of 15 minutes or more). If they're running a couple minutes behind, no big deal.

As far as I see it, this is basic work stuff. Don't even get me started on when I give someone a task via email and I don't receive any response whatsoever...

FTR, I don't give all tasks via email...it's just most come down the pipe that way and sometimes I forward the email with instructions and a suspense instead of talking face-to-face.

I'm only really held to time when I'm training. If I'm working on projects or etc. I've been told by my director as long as things get done it doesn't really matter. But those that I train are held to strict attendance guidelines (since they are technicians that do installations or dispatchers).

I think it's more of an industry thing. From my experiences in the office environ in IT...it was more, give us 8, we don't care when and how, and get your job done.

Where I am at now, I have to be at our workshop at 715 and hows this....I don't know when we will be done...generally, it's around 6 pm..

Eh, this seems like an "it depends".

If it's to get done what needs doing, they are better than you or at the least they're a better employee than you.

If it's to clean the colored tabs on the file folders with Windex, then they're just bored with everything else or perhaps suffering from OCD.

I guess I have to say my words a bit more carefully. I know people that work tons of overtime and they do a great job. I also believe that if you need to work overtime every day, you need to ask your manager for more help. In my company you get paid the same amount regardless of how many hours above the 40 that you worked. I'm all about the balance, I don't mind working late when it's required, but then don't bitch when I have a doctor's appointment and have to miss 2 hours.

The people that bug me are the "OT Club" people. It's that clique that contains all these people that are better than you because at 7pm they were all still in the office. It doesn't matter what they were doing, they could have gone for 2,000 smoke breaks (which many of them do), they could have taken the executive lunch break, but just because they're still there when nearly everybody else has gone, it makes them better than you.

Which underscores the fact that assholes that anger customers by being lazy and coming in late need to be fired. Not all of them, mind you. Just fire one of them, very publically, and you wont have a problem anymore.


So tell your boss and don't worry about it.

It's not always that easy. The design team has a supervisor that is one of the problems and our manager loves her. You could say I should quit, then, but it's really not a drain on my life. I love the developers I work with and I only brought it up because it was the topic of the thread, not because I am a "whiner."

The whole idea that showing up early makes you a better employee, or showing up late makes you a disrespectful person, is completely lacking in logic.

The area people live in should also be taken into account. If someone lives in a heavy traffic area, they may leave at the same time every day, but sometimes it takes twice as long to get to work. I know that because of where I live, I can leave at 6:00am every day for a week, and ever day I'll get to work at a different time.

You've obviously never lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. You can leave at 6am and get to work in 20 minutes on Monday, and then Tuesday it can take you an hour and a half.

My entire life in management, I've always had a very relaxed policy on "punctuality" for this very reason. Sometimes things are out of your control...and guess what? If you actually enjoy spending time with your family in the mornings (which is MORE important than work, might I remind you) and don't want to leave at 5am every day at the off chance you might hit bombastic traffic, then who am I to make up some idiotic idea in my head that you're being disrespectful. Again, that whole idea is based on broken logic. If you show up 20 minutes late, then you leave 20 minutes late. As long as you make the time up, then you're fine.

On my list of career priorities, showing up early is at the bottom. What matters is how well you do your job when you're in the office/on the clock. I'm very up-front about this with potential employers and bosses. If they have different values, then it's obviously not a good fit.

FWIW, my outlook on this is shared by most in Northern California.

This I take issue with. You choose to live and work where you do. I live in the DC area which ranks in the top 2 or 3 for terrible commutes. You need to do as someone else said, and find a time to leave that will always get you to work on time or early, move, or find a closer job. If what is truly important to you is time with your family you would have a more reliably short commute, IMO. This is where my "city snobbery" comes in. People think it costs more to live in the city because the housing is more expensive, but there are other monetary costs as well as mental costs that IMO balance things out.

Seeing some of the self-righteous whining in here, I'm glad I'm in the field I am that has core hours (10AM-5PM) and gives us the flexibility to adjust around that core. Because of my son's feeding schedule and the traffic patterns in my area, it makes more sense for me to arrive at 10AM and leave at 7PM than to try to buck traffic and be there at 8 or 9AM and double my commute time (especially coming home).

In my case, we do have core hours. They are from 9:30am-3:30pm. We are a government contractor and the federal employees we do work for expect us to be here from around 8:00am-6:30pm and we are expected to be responsive. The development team does a good job of staggering their arrival times so that we cover those time periods. However, the design team (for the most part) all shows up at 9:30 or later.


Tell the appropriate supervisors your situation and ask what you can do to keep productive while waiting on the other guy...this isn't possible at some places?

It's not about not being able to be productive, it is about customers that need things right away.

When the option is available, I am in the get in, get out crowd. I worked in a very client-facing role, and was typically in by 7:30, usually earlier.

There was one girl who I know I've probably posted about 10,000 times over multiple threads. Arriving between 7a-9a was considered acceptable. If you were a good worker, exceptions are made as needed. This girl was supposed to start at 9:00a, and was never there before 9:20. I'd get texts all the time "I missed the trolley...be a little late".

So, rather than do anything to her...they granted her an exception to start at 9:30, and stay later. Her response? Start missing the T that got her there at 9:20, and arrive at 9:45 or later.

Then to top it off, she'd send emails out at 5:55 to show she was still there...I hated that. If you didn't get in til 9:45 or 10, you should be there at 6!

We had a handful of west coast clients who had my supervisor's number and mine. And if they really needed something, I'd log in from home as needed. Plenty of times I was logged in at 6:00...and this girl was gone for the day already when she wasn't there before 10a. But again nothing happened.

I hate the show-offs who copy their bosses on needless e-mails just to portray they are working on the weekend and/or at night. Guess what, I work late and on weekends sometimes too but I don't feel the need to show it off. Everyone knows that we all have to do it at times in this office.

I suppose the answer is...it depends.

Some jobs have hard and fast hours, like factory work. On those jobs, either you get there on time or you risk dismissal or you're a good enough employee that they'll work around it.

I had a tech by the name of Rob who was pretty brilliant, but he couldn't get to anyplace on time to save his life. He'd roll in at close to 9:00 AM on a job that started at 8:00. He'd get to a customer appointment at 3:30 that was due to start at 3:00. I quickly realized that was the way Rob's internal clock worked. So as his boss, I had two choices...work around it or fire him. So I never scheduled Rob anywhere before 9:30 AM but knew he was willing to work after 5:00 PM, so he'd get more of the late jobs. If his appointment was at 3:00, I'd tell him it was at 2:30. If it was at 10:00, I'd tell him to be there at 9:00. It worked out fine.

I had another employee with a similar problem named Travis. He didn't know what I did with Rob, but even if he did it wouldn't have made a difference. Rob was a hard-to-replace asset for my team and Travis wasn't. So Travis was fired after a few months.

Personally, I'm an early bird. If my appointment is at 3:00, I feel I'm late if I show up at 2:55. So I'm almost always the 2nd one in the office every morning, but I'm also out of there earlier than most if the day is done. If someone wanted me to keep to strict hours, I could do so, but they'd also lose any consideration for me going over and above the call of duty. But I also work in an office where there aren't hard-and-fast hours and you can take some liberties with your schedule if you need to.

The issue with the Bay Area is that there are too many bridges that people rely on to get to and from work. There's just way more choke points than any other major metropolitan city in the country that I can think of. So, alternate routes are pretty much non existent (there is no freeway that runs through the city of San Francisco or around it) or just leaving an extra 30 minutes early really does zero good. Personally, I think they should drain the bay, fill it in and lay down a bunch of roads. Then getting to any place in the Bay Area would only take 15 minutes instead of 45...with no traffic.

Luckily I'm at a job where as long as I show up for 8 hours, no one complains. However, I do like to keep a schedule as much as possible and if I'm not at work by at least 15 minutes before my self mandated start time, I feel late. But, I'm like that with just about everything though, movies, dates, parties, meeting a friend, appointments, etc...

[QUOTE=JediKooter;2487755]The issue with the Bay Area is that there are too many bridges that people rely on to get to and from work. There's just way more choke points than any other major metropolitan city in the country that I can think of. QUOTE]

Seattle is similar. 2 bridges that lead in and out that most people have to use. My opinion of it is leave early enough to get to work on time. If it is the kind of freak thing where there is an accident or something, that is one thing. If someone is consistently late that is a different story.

Seattle is similar. 2 bridges that lead in and out that most people have to use. My opinion of it is leave early enough to get to work on time. If it is the kind of freak thing where there is an accident or something, that is one thing. If someone is consistently late that is a different story.
Here's the problem with that theory though - unless you can leave work by 4PM, you're fucked - traffic heading east over 520 in the afternoon is already heavy at 4PM, and quickly grows to rage-inducing stop & go (emphasis on the "stop") until about 7:30 or so. I tried the early morning routine when I worked at Microsoft, and quickly discovered that it wasn't going to work, because it was rare that I could get out of work by 4PM even if I had rolled in at 7:30AM. So the path of least resistance was to go back to my arrive by 10AM and leave after 7PM routine.

This I take issue with. You choose to live and work where you do. I live in the DC area which ranks in the top 2 or 3 for terrible commutes. You need to do as someone else said, and find a time to leave that will always get you to work on time or early, move, or find a closer job. If what is truly important to you is time with your family you would have a more reliably short commute, IMO. This is where my "city snobbery" comes in. People think it costs more to live in the city because the housing is more expensive, but there are other monetary costs as well as mental costs that IMO balance things out.
It's not that simple in many cases though. When my wife and I bought our house, I was working on the waterfront in Seattle and she was working at the UW, so our house just east of the UW was a great spot for both of us.

Then a year later, the company I work for was bought and we were transferred 6 months later to the other side of Lake Washington to work in the north part of Kirkland, and my simple 10-15 minute commute turned into a 25 minutes if everything is perfect, 45 minutes to an hour if not commute.

So I'm supposed to sell my house after 1.5 years at a loss because my job switched out from under me?

Seattle is similar. 2 bridges that lead in and out that most people have to use. My opinion of it is leave early enough to get to work on time. If it is the kind of freak thing where there is an accident or something, that is one thing. If someone is consistently late that is a different story.

No, I agree, leave early. Its just the Bay Area, you never know and traffic will stop for no reason, no accident or anything, so there's no point in leaving any earlier than what one already does. Now if someone thinks that leaving 10 minutes earlier on an hour long commute will do, they are delusional.

At least Seattle has a freeway that goes through it. :) San Fran has nothing, but, non synced stop lights all the way up and down the peninsula. If you don't hit the road by 1:30 - 2:00 in the after noon, it's a long ride home.

No, I agree, leave early. Its just the Bay Area, you never know and traffic will stop for no reason, no accident or anything, so there's no point in leaving any earlier than what one already does. Now if someone thinks that leaving 10 minutes earlier on an hour long commute will do, they are delusional.

At least Seattle has a freeway that goes through it. :) San Fran has nothing, but, non synced stop lights all the way up and down the peninsula. If you don't hit the road by 1:30 - 2:00 in the after noon, it's a long ride home.

Right on the money. I've lived and driven all over the US, including LA and NYC. The Bay Area has by far the most unpredictable traffic gridlocks I have ever seen. At least in the other big cities you know you're in for it.

Here's the problem with that theory though - unless you can leave work by 4PM, you're fucked - traffic heading east over 520 in the afternoon is already heavy at 4PM, and quickly grows to rage-inducing stop & go (emphasis on the "stop") until about 7:30 or so. I tried the early morning routine when I worked at Microsoft, and quickly discovered that it wasn't going to work, because it was rare that I could get out of work by 4PM even if I had rolled in at 7:30AM. So the path of least resistance was to go back to my arrive by 10AM and leave after 7PM routine.

That all makes sense, and if your agreed upon schedule is 10-7 no problem. The point I was making is if someone is supposed to be at work by 9 and they routinely show up late with the traffic excuse they need to leave earlier. If that means on certain days they get to work early so be it, thats life.

I've got pretty flexible hours that my boss and I see eye-to-eye on so I could give two shits what my co-workers think when I get in late or leave early.

With that said, I'm reachable 24/7 via my BlackBerry so if there is something pressing they can always reach me.

If your boss doesn't mind what hours you keep, then neither should anybody else.

Optics and office politics are for the petty employees who are trying to get ahead by dragging down others instead of simply doing their job better.

I've got pretty flexible hours that my boss and I see eye-to-eye on so I could give two shits what my co-workers think when I get in late or leave early.

With that said, I'm reachable 24/7 via my BlackBerry so if there is something pressing they can always reach me.

If your boss doesn't mind what hours you keep, then neither should anybody else.

Optics and office politics are for the petty employees who are trying to get ahead by dragging down others instead of simply doing their job better.

The blackberry is a good point. We are much more accessible than we were 10+ years ago. Even on weekends I can answer an e-mail or two.

Also agree on the office politics part. Never understood why people gave such a shit about when fellow co-workers got in and left.

Also agree on the office politics part. Never understood why people gave such a shit about when fellow co-workers got in and left.

Yup. My policy is, if whatever you're doing doesn't affect my paycheck negatively, I don't care what you do.

A pretty accepted way to get ahead is to be there first and leave last (assuming you're actually working during this time). In some cultures I've been in, it totally wasn't a requirement to be around late, but you would miss out on a lot of networking and side project discussions if you didn't stick around.

The issue with the Bay Area is that there are too many bridges that people rely on to get to and from work. There's just way more choke points than any other major metropolitan city in the country that I can think of. So, alternate routes are pretty much non existent (there is no freeway that runs through the city of San Francisco or around it) or just leaving an extra 30 minutes early really does zero good. Personally, I think they should drain the bay, fill it in and lay down a bunch of roads. Then getting to any place in the Bay Area would only take 15 minutes instead of 45...with no traffic.

Luckily I'm at a job where as long as I show up for 8 hours, no one complains. However, I do like to keep a schedule as much as possible and if I'm not at work by at least 15 minutes before my self mandated start time, I feel late. But, I'm like that with just about everything though, movies, dates, parties, meeting a friend, appointments, etc...



Seattle is similar. 2 bridges that lead in and out that most people have to use. My opinion of it is leave early enough to get to work on time. If it is the kind of freak thing where there is an accident or something, that is one thing. If someone is consistently late that is a different story.

DC as well. From the Virginia side at least. There are basically three bridges in to a street grid that was designed in the 18th century to confuse and slow down opposing armies.

It's not that simple in many cases though. When my wife and I bought our house, I was working on the waterfront in Seattle and she was working at the UW, so our house just east of the UW was a great spot for both of us.

Then a year later, the company I work for was bought and we were transferred 6 months later to the other side of Lake Washington to work in the north part of Kirkland, and my simple 10-15 minute commute turned into a 25 minutes if everything is perfect, 45 minutes to an hour if not commute.

So I'm supposed to sell my house after 1.5 years at a loss because my job switched out from under me?

There are of course exceptions. But I recall that Sun Tzu recently moved to his new home, so I doubt that is the case here. I also have known people that leave a job if it makes a move that drastically affects their commute, so it is just depends on your priorities in life. Certainly you have more room to complain about it than others.


Optics and office politics are for the petty employees who are trying to get ahead by dragging down others instead of simply doing their job better.

Yup. My policy is, if whatever you're doing doesn't affect my paycheck negatively, I don't care what you do.


I don't know why its so hard for people to understand that someone arriving late CAN affect another person's ability to do their job.

I don't know why its so hard for people to understand that someone arriving late CAN affect another person's ability to do their job.

+1

Been scratching my head throughout the thread at the apparent difficulty in understanding that.

I don't know why its so hard for people to understand that someone arriving late CAN affect another person's ability to do their job.

Nope, I hear you. No problem understanding that at all. I actually don't see where I'm disagreeing with you to be honest, unless I missed something. Me saying that I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't affect my paycheck, actually is in line with what you're saying. If I'm not able to do my job because someone is constantly late or not there and it affects my check, you better believe I'll have a problem with that.

I don't know why its so hard for people to understand that someone arriving late CAN affect another person's ability to do their job.

Yup, I understand, but I don't care so long as my boss doesn't care about telling our client that it will get taken care of as soon as possible. If that isn't good enough for the client then they can discuss what kind of level of service they would like and my boss will make sure they understand the consequences associated to that level of service...i.e. more money and/or more staff.

As soon as he isn't comfortable saying that then he can call me (or whoever is responsible) and I'll make sure I get whatever needs doing done, ASAP. And afterwards, we can discuss my hours and make adjustments accordingly, if necessary.

Here's the thing, I get along with all of my co-workers, we all work very well together for the most part. So, when I'm up until 3am fixing something one of my co-workers broke then he/she understands that when they are in a pickle I'm going to be there to help them out...whether I'm in the office, or not. But, with that said, if I ever hear about somebody complaining about my ass not sitting in my chair at the office at 8:30am then my phone will be going off at 4:30pm and won't be turning on again until 8:30am the next day.

I only get paid for 40 hours a week but routinely work more than that. I don't want a medal for working overtime, not at all. I enjoy my job, most of the time, and to make my life easier, working during non-peak times makes more sense for me. In exchange, I keep flexible hours which makes things easier for myself, my family life, and my boss as I do my best to keep my work from affecting day to day operations. He appreciates that and obviously sees the benefit in keeping me happy as he gets more bang for his buck, and in the long run, less flack from our client.

I've always run a department with a "depends on your job duties" approach.

You are a manager: Maintain a set schedule, and be there consistently as a resource for your employees, and for other departments.

You are a help desk person or in an analyst position that requires you to interface with clients/other departments: Your manager has set your hours so that there is coverage for our clients and for your co-workers. You need to be at work on time with few exceptions.

You are a developer or system admin: You and your manager have agreed on a schedule. Stick to it, but it is understood that you will have a lot more flexibility than others. Getting your work done, and getting along with your co-workers is far more important than punctuality.

I had a VP come in and try to force my hand to enforce a quite strict and uniform time and attendance policy. She played all kinds of HR games saying that because I allowed some employees to basically set their own hours that other departments couldn't enforce time and attendance policy even though those departments had strict obligations...answering phones and the like. My refusal to comply was quite a bone of contention between us.

It's interesting to see the responses in this thread. At my work, the only real requirement for most people is that they get their stuff done. There are some jobs that have set hours, but they're rare. That said, I get frustrated when coworkers aren't there between say 9a and 3p, and when they don't answer their cell phones. These people know that during certain phases of our jobs, we're on call 24-7. That means they have to answer their phones.. grr.

/tk

Yup, I understand...

I finished reading this and knew, before I even checked your profile, roughly what line of work you were in. Take that however I suppose, although it's intended as essentially neutral on the whole.

I will, however, point out that it helps illustrate why there's places that have people designated (officially or un) to serve as cut-outs between tech employees & regular employees. I've probably made more money in the past three years being a go-between for executives & tech-related folks than I've made planning & placing media, so I'm certainly not complaining about it.

No, I agree, leave early. Its just the Bay Area, you never know and traffic will stop for no reason, no accident or anything, so there's no point in leaving any earlier than what one already does. Now if someone thinks that leaving 10 minutes earlier on an hour long commute will do, they are delusional.

At least Seattle has a freeway that goes through it. :) San Fran has nothing, but, non synced stop lights all the way up and down the peninsula. If you don't hit the road by 1:30 - 2:00 in the after noon, it's a long ride home.

Right on the money. I've lived and driven all over the US, including LA and NYC. The Bay Area has by far the most unpredictable traffic gridlocks I have ever seen. At least in the other big cities you know you're in for it.

I use to have a commute that could range from 45 minutes to almost two hours, depending on the rain and if the carpool lane was being enforced by CHP that day. Not that I'd drive in the carpool lane, it's just that everyone rubbernecked the fuck out of people who were pulled over for doing so.

Had another commute that was a monster and involved a car, a bus, BART, a shuttle and a walk. And everything was on a timed schedule so if one was off, you're late. I was a new employee and new hires were not allowed to have a key to the office, so either I tried to get to work on time, or I arrived early and sat outside (there was no lobby and this was before cell phones) twiddling my thumbs (which involved freezing, sitting in the rain, getting harassed by thugs and bums) until my boss decided to show up (who was frequently late). Of course, said boss would give me shit all the time about being late (she eventually got fired). All I needed was a key to the office and I'd could get there either 15-30 min early at best, or on time at worst. But I wasn't going to keep sitting on a step for an hour and be the target for some itchy 17 year old crackhead.

Pretty simple rule I follow: If you want to be treated like a professional, act like a professional.

I finished reading this and knew, before I even checked your profile, roughly what line of work you were in. Take that however I suppose, although it's intended as essentially neutral on the whole.

I will, however, point out that it helps illustrate why there's places that have people designated (officially or un) to serve as cut-outs between tech employees & regular employees. I've probably made more money in the past three years being a go-between for executives & tech-related folks than I've made planning & placing media, so I'm certainly not complaining about it.

I don't know that my line of work really has all that much to do with it because I provide flexibility for my boss in how and when I get my work done as I try to do so to impact the client as little as possible. In exchange for my odd hours of work, he lets me keep, well, odd hours of work.

Is that so difficult to understand? ;)

Had another commute that was a monster and involved a car, a bus, BART, a shuttle and a walk.

That would lead me to a crack problem.

I don't know that my line of work really has all that much to do with it

Don't underestimate that. I'd wager it's more several times common in that sector than any other, exponentially more common than in many sectors.

because I provide flexibility for my boss in how and when I get my work done as I try to do so to impact the client as little as possible. In exchange for my odd hours of work, he lets me keep, well, odd hours of work.

What you probably don't know (because it might even pre-date my arrival at FOFC) is that I had a similar arrangement in a completely different job, so I'm not kicking at much dirt on it as you might think. I literally saw the sun rise while finishing more than one project when the need arose & that willingness bought me plenty of leeway about my deep hatred of "normal" morning hours.

Yup, I understand, but I don't care so long as my boss doesn't care about telling our client that it will get taken care of as soon as possible. If that isn't good enough for the client then they can discuss what kind of level of service they would like and my boss will make sure they understand the consequences associated to that level of service...i.e. more money and/or more staff.

As soon as he isn't comfortable saying that then he can call me (or whoever is responsible) and I'll make sure I get whatever needs doing done, ASAP. And afterwards, we can discuss my hours and make adjustments accordingly, if necessary.

Here's the thing, I get along with all of my co-workers, we all work very well together for the most part. So, when I'm up until 3am fixing something one of my co-workers broke then he/she understands that when they are in a pickle I'm going to be there to help them out...whether I'm in the office, or not. But, with that said, if I ever hear about somebody complaining about my ass not sitting in my chair at the office at 8:30am then my phone will be going off at 4:30pm and won't be turning on again until 8:30am the next day.

I only get paid for 40 hours a week but routinely work more than that. I don't want a medal for working overtime, not at all. I enjoy my job, most of the time, and to make my life easier, working during non-peak times makes more sense for me. In exchange, I keep flexible hours which makes things easier for myself, my family life, and my boss as I do my best to keep my work from affecting day to day operations. He appreciates that and obviously sees the benefit in keeping me happy as he gets more bang for his buck, and in the long run, less flack from our client.

I don't know how to say this without being a dick.. and its not solely directed at you, but I think perhaps part of the problem is that I take more pride in the work produced by my team (not just myself). And maybe that is where the differences in this whole thread comes from. The people that don't care what everyone else is doing as long as they do their job -- the results of my team reflect on myself as much as the guy that slacks off and I want our team to produce a good produce and be perceived well by our clients.

I don't know how to say this without being a dick.. and its not solely directed at you, but I think perhaps part of the problem is that I take more pride in the work produced by my team (not just myself). And maybe that is where the differences in this whole thread comes from. The people that don't care what everyone else is doing as long as they do their job -- the results of my team reflect on myself as much as the guy that slacks off and I want our team to produce a good produce and be perceived well by our clients.

Trust me, I care about good work because my name is at the top of the list to call when shit doesn't work so either I do shitty work and spend my days talking down clients or I do it well and enjoy planning our next project in a quiet office environment.

As a team, we're expected to provide enterprise services and support for our clients with all the latest and greatest bells and whistles on a "home office" budget. If our team didn't go above and beyond the call of duty every day then we'd fail at providing that service miserably.

I've been here 10 years and I certainly haven't stayed because of the pay, it's because of the work environment and the relationships I've formed over the years. Knowing the people you're supporting can be a very strong motivator as you don't want to let them down, and that's how I feel.

So, when I'm not at my desk at 8:30am on a Monday morning, just about everybody knows exactly why...because I've likely just gone to bed for a quick nap after a long, work-filled, weekend and I'll be back at it as soon as humanly possible.

I don't know why people are still going back and forth on this in this thread.

There's no one size fits all solution. It all depends on your job function, the expectations that bosses/customers have, etc.

Nobody's right or wrong about this - everyone just has jobs with different functions and needs. There's no point in arguing with someone with a totally different job that they ought to be held to your standards - that just makes no sense.

DT is correct.

There seems to be a real disconnect in this thread between people who work in a field where it is OK to be late, thus they defend it, and people who work in a field where there are set times and people who are late hurt others productivity.

DT is correct.

There seems to be a real disconnect in this thread between people who work in a field where it is OK to be late, thus they defend it, and people who work in a field where there are set times and people who are late hurt others productivity.

This makes sense, but what is the general consensus on coming to work early or late if you are a porn star? I'm thinking ones that come in early aren't going to be in the business long.

But that's just my opinion.

This makes sense, but what is the general consensus on coming to work early or late if you are a porn star? I'm thinking ones that come in early aren't going to be in the business long.

But that's just my opinion.

I'm with Rizon on this. I mean seriously, if you have someone coming in early, every single time, they are just not the type of worker that industry is looking for or what the clients want.

I'm with Rizon on this. I mean seriously, if you have someone coming in early, every single time, they are just not the type of worker that industry is looking for or what the clients want.

I mean, how hard can it be??

I mean, how hard can it be??

So true. I understand wanting to keep up and really hammer away at your career, but, if someone can't put themselves into a position where they will succeed, not much you can do for them.

So true. I understand wanting to keep up and really hammer away at your career, but, if someone can't put themselves into a position where they will succeed, not much you can do for them.

Flexibility is the key, though, the more flexible you are, the better.

Oh, and multitasking, if you can do more than one job at a time, and are flexible, you are going to be a star.

Flexibility is the key, though, the more flexible you are, the better.

Oh, and multitasking, if you can do more than one job at a time, and are flexible, you are going to be a star.

Absolutely. Being able to work in a group, all around team player from top to bottom and that can really dig deep into the task at hand, are signs of a solid, up and coming performer.