I posted this in the F-GM thread but I am hoping for a bit more exposure with a separate thread:

I have been helping my father look for a new car the last couple weeks. He is most interested in a 2009 Taurus or Sable but no dealers in the bay area have even a single one. They keep trying to push new 2008 models on us. Technically new, that is, as they are reportedly repossessions from failed dealerships.

So, no 2009's in stock. Claim they will get some next month. Wiki says that the 2010 models are due out in July. Really unsure what advice to give my pop.

Does he absolutely have to have a new car? There are incredible bargains out there on one or two year old cars.

He wants a new one.

i helped my friend buy a fusion last month. went on the last day of the month. got 500 under invoice, plus ford had a 3500 factory incentive on top of that. they were desperate for a sale. good time to buy.

Car Tips and Advice - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-advice.html)

Long read, but it's a very interesting read: Confessions of a Car Salesman (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html)

Long read, but it's a very interesting read: Confessions of a Car Salesman (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html)

Illuminating. Thanks.

I've read through chapter 3- it's a fun read :)

SI

I replied in the other thread. The 2010 Taurus is quite an upgrade, I've seen and heard good things about it.

I'm hearing good things about GM.

I replied in the other thread. The 2010 Taurus is quite an upgrade, I've seen and heard good things about it.

Yeah, been hearing hype on the 2010's. I think my dad wants to buy sooner than mid-summer, so I don't think a 2010 is an option.

Anyone know much about the Chrysler 300? It looks pricey but the ride is rumored to be very nice.

If you're having trouble with dealers, go the Internet route. Most manufacturers allow you to do this through the web page for the manufacturer, and dealers tend to have separate sales people to deal with the Internet orders. The two I've dealt with for my last two cars at least had enough of a clue to know that we knew what we wanted and not to screw around with it, and they were the two most pleasant car buying experiences I've had. You can also check warehouse places like BJ's, Sam's Club, etc that have auto-buying services that avoid much of the dealer garbage. Any of those may help you get the car you are looking for rather than the one the dealer wants you to buy.

Good ideas. Once we actually decide on a make/model/year, I think we will try the 'white people' method espoused by the article RA linked. Call a fleet manager and offer him X under invoice.

Still wondering if the best move isn't to buy a vastly discounted 2008 model. Also, he now tells me he wants to drive a Toyota Avalon as well. This may take a couple weeks.

You don't even have to call the fleet manager, they'll call you after you submit the request online.

The big thing to keep an eye out going this way is the trade-in, there is no way around that unless you sell it separately.

Good ideas. Once we actually decide on a make/model/year, I think we will try the 'white people' method espoused by the article RA linked. Call a fleet manager and offer him X under invoice.

Still wondering if the best move isn't to buy a vastly discounted 2008 model. Also, he now tells me he wants to drive a Toyota Avalon as well. This may take a couple weeks.

Understand that article was written some time ago...at least over 18 months ago. What was interesting to me was the four squares method of pulling in profit.

What I did almost two years ago was get internet quotes from dealerships within a 10 hour drive (that would be Dallas, San Diego, Phoenix, Colorado, etc.) and then took them to the local Lexus dealership to see if they would match the lowest one. I saved airfare plus began (what I thought to be) a relationship with the dealership where the car would be serviced.

Unfortunately we moved last year so c'est la vie.

You don't even have to call the fleet manager, they'll call you after you submit the request online.

The big thing to keep an eye out going this way is the trade-in, there is no way around that unless you sell it separately.

The best thing I ever did in buying a new car was to take my car to CarMax and get an offer from them. Get the price of the car agreed on while telling them you don't have a trade in. When you agree on a price, then mention your trade and whip out the CarMax offer. Tell them you're walking away from the purchase unless they hold to the agreed on price AND give you CarMax money for your trade. But, like the fascinating edmunds article says, you have to be ready to really walk away.

I think the dealers really make their money by wearing you down. Its their job, and as that article points out, most of the time they don't have anything better to do if you leave. But, you are eating into your free time, and it sure sucks to invest two hours and then walk away still stuck at the beginning.

The best thing I ever did in buying a new car was to take my car to CarMax and get an offer from them. Get the price of the car agreed on while telling them you don't have a trade in. When you agree on a price, then mention your trade and whip out the CarMax offer. Tell them you're walking away from the purchase unless they hold to the agreed on price AND give you CarMax money for your trade. But, like the fascinating edmunds article says, you have to be ready to really walk away.

I think the dealers really make their money by wearing you down. Its their job, and as that article points out, most of the time they don't have anything better to do if you leave. But, you are eating into your free time, and it sure sucks to invest two hours and then walk away still stuck at the beginning.


I tried this with my car, but they told me (pretty reasonably, I thought) that if I could get that much more than they were offering from Carmax, I should sell it there. So I did, and came back and bought the car.

Lots of good advice here. I appreciate every bit of it.

We have no trade-in to complicate matters. Went today and drove the Chrysler 300...Nice ride, decent overall, very big and 'boat-like'. Also drove a Toyota Avalon...sweetest car driven to date. Pricey but combines the best features of a luxury sedan and a mid-size.

So...current models under consideration are:
2008 Ford Taurus
2009 Ford Taurus
2008 Mercury Sable
2009 Mercury Sable
2009 Chrysler 300
2009 Toyota Avalon

The Fords and Mercs look like the best bang for the buck. The scarcity of 2009 models is the biggest drawback at this point. The Avalon is far and away the best car but might be out of his price range. Any more advice or anecdotal experiences are most welcome.

I tried this with my car, but they told me (pretty reasonably, I thought) that if I could get that much more than they were offering from Carmax, I should sell it there. So I did, and came back and bought the car.

I didn't say the dealer would always give you that much. You do need to be ready to sell it to Carmax (their quotes are good for 3 days and 200 miles or something). The Carmax thing gives you a real idea of what your car is worth however.

But, just like the article, the dealers are terrified you'll walk out the door. The dealer who matched mine said he would not give us that price. We stood up to tell them we were going to go sell the car to carmax the next day, then be out of town for the week and then come back (all of which was true, incidentally). When we did that, they matched carmax's price. I was going to say "suddenly" they matched our price, but really (again just like the article) they had us wait about another 20 minutes and then did so.

Just to make sure, read this one as well: Confessions of an Auto Finance Manager - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/125308/article.html)

Not quite as long and it's a more recent article. I think they put it up last year some time.

Getting close to making a purchase. Plan to drive to Livermore tomorrow to eyeball a 2009 Taurus. The Sable is the car my dad really prefers but the 2009's are damn scarce. The guy I spoke to told me 200 over invoice if we like what we see.

Dealing with my 77 year-old father though this has been highly stressful. Trying like hell to help him get what he wants at a fair price. His health isn't good and I think it has made him extra irritable.

Just to make sure, read this one as well: Confessions of an Auto Finance Manager - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/125308/article.html)

Not quite as long and it's a more recent article. I think they put it up last year some time.

Great read.

In case anyone was hurting for closure, my dad eventually settled on a 2009 Mercury Sable. Nice standard options and great power but the controls are like a space shuttle to him. A steep learning curve but I am helping him learn what he needs to know.

The Sable's ride is rough IMO and there is a lot of road noise. I expect the 18" Pirelli tires are a big part of that. I do like the handling and visibility.

Had it been my choice I would've gone for the Toyota Avalon. The ride was nicer and it just seemed tighter, more polished.

Car Tips and Advice - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-advice.html)

Long read, but it's a very interesting read: Confessions of a Car Salesman (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html)

Just finished reading this. Good stuff. Makes you feel a bit more confident about having to go in, particularly if you have the right attitude and know what to expect.

SI

I think the two keys, the absolute two keys are:

1. Get your financing elsewhere.

2. Be completely ready and willing to walk out on a moment's notice if you're uncomfortable/unhappy with what's going on (included in this is bringing photocopies of your licenses so they can't hold those hostage).

I think the two keys, the absolute two keys are:

1. Get your financing elsewhere.

2. Be completely ready and willing to walk out on a moment's notice if you're uncomfortable/unhappy with what's going on (included in this is bringing photocopies of your licenses so they can't hold those hostage).

I think #2 is an absolute must and the trap that so many people fall into. If it's not working out, it's not going to magically work out. Be ready to move on. Something you're going to be paying on for 3 or 5 years shouldn't be done in a morning.

SI

I'm kind of in a spot myself. Currently live in the city and don't drive a lot. I don't have to drive to work even if I don't want to.

Well my 1998 Chevy Monte Carlo looks to be on her last legs. 130k miles on it, some electrical problems, no A/C, think it's burning oil, has some nice dents now, and as of Yesterday won't start. Been told it's something with the security system and I may need a new one (still not sure about this).

So I'm at a point where I think it's time for a new car. Does anyone have any suggestions for something in the $12,000-$20,000 range. I don't really need anything that new and was thinking of something a few years old with maybe 25-40k on it already. Figure that will do me well for some years till I can move out to the suburbs or something and trade in for something better.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Not much of a car buff. Did kind of like some of the Mazdas.

I may be in the market for a machine myself. Thinking of a Hybrid Camry.

Audi or Nissan Maxima's are where you should be looking RainMaker. I have a Maxima and I love it. The car is stylish, performs great on the road and also is very customizable if that's something you want to do.

I am interesting in buying an Audi A6 which is something I've wanted for a while now.

Noop - I assume you mean used, because he's not getting a midsize Audi or Nissan for $12,000 - $20,000.

RainMaker - look at used Mazda3s, which should be in your range. They get incredible reviews, and are supposed to be fun to drive as well.

Also check out edmunds.com.

Noop - I assume you mean used, because he's not getting a midsize Audi or Nissan for $12,000 - $20,000.

RainMaker - look at used Mazda3s, which should be in your range. They get incredible reviews, and are supposed to be fun to drive as well.

Also check out edmunds.com.

Yeah I meant used although I thought it was assumed given his price range.

You can get a used Audi A6 for under $20,000 if it is from 2005 or earlier. So, do-able. You can get a used Nissan Maxima for under $20,000 if it is from 2006 or earlier. Obviously mileage is part of the deal with both.

So, I stand corrected.

Still, I'd prefer a Mazda3 to either vehicle. First, you can get 2008s and even 2009s for under $20,000. Second, it doesn't require premium gas (I know the Audi does, I can't remember if the Nissan does). Third, it's cheaper to fix than the Audi and more reliable than the Nissan (though all three are pretty reliable).

Of course it's not an exact comparison. The Mazda3 is a compact while the others are mid or full-size (can't remember which). So it kind of depends what you want.

Also, I'm a Mazda fanboy (if you haven't figured that out by now).

Still: edmunds.com. Trust me.

I have a MAzda Tribute and really like it.

Small enough that you don't feel like you are driving a semi but big enough you feel like you aren't in a miata. my old car was a Ford Explorer and I didn't feel at all like I was downsizing.

Runs well and has plenty of room inside. I also live in a city and it handles really rell in city traffic, great control and nice pickup.

I bought new but now it has 46K miles on it and still runs great.

I plan on a Portland trip at some point, I'll let you test drive it ;)

Isn't the Honda Civic really the no-brainer option here? You can get it new in this price range and you won't find anything more reliable.

I just bought a 2006 Pontiac G6 GT Coupe used for about 11k. It had 30k miles on it. I like it quite a bit so far.

Edit: Hotlink didn't work

Isn't the Honda Civic really the no-brainer option here? You can get it new in this price range and you won't find anything more reliable.

If all you want is reliability, then buy a Honda Civic / Toyota Corolla (or Accord / Camry if you want a bigger car) and call it a day. However, they'll be a bit more expensive than other options (largely because of the reliability and how they hold their resale values) and there are other options that are more fun to drive. But yeah, if all you're looking for is Point A to Point B, buy the Honda/Toyota and get on with life.

FTR, my daily driver is a 1999 Toyota Corolla.

i'm torn between said reliable car and something with a bit more..."oooh" factor.

you an get a new nissan versa for $9999 :)

of course, I don't think it even has a radio.

I just bought a 2006 Pontiac G6 GT Coupe used for about 11k. It had 30k miles on it. I like it quite a bit so far.
I saw some of those and they looked like a good deal.

What's the main difference in the Mazda 3 and 6?

Mazda3 is compact and Mazda6 is mid/full-size.

What I've read seems to be that the 3 really stands out from its competition (Corolla, Civic, other economy/compact cars) while the 6 doesn't, even though it too is a decent car.

i think my sister has a 3.

I just don't want to get stuck with a chick car. :)

If all you want is reliability, then buy a Honda Civic / Toyota Corolla (or Accord / Camry if you want a bigger car) and call it a day. However, they'll be a bit more expensive than other options (largely because of the reliability and how they hold their resale values) and there are other options that are more fun to drive. But yeah, if all you're looking for is Point A to Point B, buy the Honda/Toyota and get on with life.

FTR, my daily driver is a 1999 Toyota Corolla.

That was my interpretation of RM's needs fwiw. So, to me it's the obvious choice.

While the G6 was a decent car and the G8 GTP was an american BMW 3 series for 10k less, Id bee hard pressed to buy a pontiac with Gm saying they will discontinue parts support at year end.

Hey! I figure I should post here because I am a New & PreOwned Sales Rep at a Chevrolet dealership here in Michigan.

I read the Edmunds article, If it was written years ago i'll forgive it, but at least at my dealership, that shit just doesnt go on. Todays customers are internet savy and much more educated than the people written about in the article. I also have a feeling the writer may have been embellishing on a few things to give the article some "artistic" flair.

Anyways, thought I'd chime, and it'd be fun to answer any questions that anyone has. :)

Im thinking about getting a 1-2 year old car next spring and love my mom's Honda but I'm really attracted to the Infiniti's. Anyone think next spring would be a bad time to be looking for cars?

Hey! I figure I should post here because I am a New & PreOwned Sales Rep at a Chevrolet dealership here in Michigan.

I read the Edmunds article, If it was written years ago i'll forgive it, but at least at my dealership, that shit just doesnt go on. Todays customers are internet savy and much more educated than the people written about in the article. I also have a feeling the writer may have been embellishing on a few things to give the article some "artistic" flair.

Anyways, thought I'd chime, and it'd be fun to answer any questions that anyone has. :)

cool. a car salesman on the board!

Im thinking about getting a 1-2 year old car next spring and love my mom's Honda but I'm really attracted to the Infiniti's. Anyone think next spring would be a bad time to be looking for cars?
My brother recently bought a new Civic and he loves it.

Im thinking about getting a 1-2 year old car next spring and love my mom's Honda but I'm really attracted to the Infiniti's. Anyone think next spring would be a bad time to be looking for cars?

I absolutely love my G35.

I read the Edmunds article

I should note that I generally recommend edmunds.com not necessarily for that article about how to deal with dealerships, but because IMO it's one of the best websites for objective reviews on pretty much every car out there.

the G8 GTP was an american BMW 3 series for 10k less

Erm, while the G8 GTP was a good car (even though it was Australian, not American), I wouldn't say it comes close to touching a car that is on its 5th generation and has owned the luxury mid-size class for about 20 years.

Im thinking about getting a 1-2 year old car next spring and love my mom's Honda but I'm really attracted to the Infiniti's. Anyone think next spring would be a bad time to be looking for cars?

The G35 is supposedly an excellent car. But if you've loved Hondas, be sure to check out some Acuras. Not only do they share Honda's fit and finish, they generally sport good gas mileage and truly excellent safety ratings.

The only real advice I can give is to keep in mind maintenance costs. BMWs, Infiniti's, Audi's... They have high maintenance cause because they are high quality imports.

Japanese cars not so much, because of the sheer volume of them and the interchangeability of said parts.

American cars, generally the same as Japanese or less. Local parts, no shipping, and often times available.

Basically, don't get European unless you have alot of GWOP to kill on it.

It's a bit more complex than that. For instance, BMW offers free maintenance for the first 5 years.

Then, you can take a look at how often you can expect to repair an American make vs. one of the higher-reliability Europeans. It may cost $200 to repair Part X on a Ford, and $1,000 to repair the same Part X on a Mercedes, but if you're 90% likely to need to repair Part X on the Ford in the first 3 years, and 10% likely to repair Part X on the Mercedes in the first 3 years, it might make more sense to buy the Merc.

Again, it pays to do the research.

I should note that I generally recommend edmunds.com not necessarily for that article about how to deal with dealerships, but because IMO it's one of the best websites for objective reviews on pretty much every car out there.



Erm, while the G8 GTP was a good car (even though it was Australian, not American), I wouldn't say it comes close to touching a car that is on its 5th generation and has owned the luxury mid-size class for about 20 years.

In lineage, I will agree whole-heartedly but take all that away, and drop your butt into an 08 G8 and treat it like a rental car, and then get out and sit in a 335 and do the same.

I was shocked (and this coming from a guy who's wife has owned 4 bimmers)

It's a bit more complex than that. For instance, BMW offers free maintenance for the first 5 years.

Then, you can take a look at how often you can expect to repair an American make vs. one of the higher-reliability Europeans. It may cost $200 to repair Part X on a Ford, and $1,000 to repair the same Part X on a Mercedes, but if you're 90% likely to need to repair Part X on the Ford in the first 3 years, and 10% likely to repair Part X on the Mercedes in the first 3 years, it might make more sense to buy the Merc.

Again, it pays to do the research.

I hear ya.
I guess that comes down to how long you plan on keeping the car, leasing it, etc...
Just something to keep in mind though, that's all.

The G35 is supposedly an excellent car. But if you've loved Hondas, be sure to check out some Acuras. Not only do they share Honda's fit and finish, they generally sport good gas mileage and truly excellent safety ratings.

Good point. I have a 2004 Acura TSX, and it's a really good car. I'd agree that if you want the reliability of a Honda, but with a little more flair, I'd recommend an Acura. They're obviously more than a Honda, but they aren't an arm and a leg to fix.